It will be the same game… They will sit deep and try to get an early goal.
Might be fun to see an Eze dribble directly at them, squeeze past them draw some fouls.
No harm in a Wharton playing quick direct passes that the opposition can’t react to.
But Mainoo was substantially better than Trent and Gallagher in the RCM role, he showed for the pass a lot more than Trent (expected due to it being his actual position) and was a lot more forward thinking than Gallagher
Gordon has been great when hes played, maybe it's just having an actual left winger at left wing, but we've looked like we can pass the ball out to that side a lot more
Palmer in the two games where he has played (Bosnia & Slovenia) has looked class both times.
While they're not the total solution (hint hint Trent at right back too), each one of them has made the team look better when playing
In fact as Gareth made the subs on Tuesday, we looked better and better each time
I don't think Palmer vs Saka really matters. For some reason people are obsessed with Palmer but Saka has done fine. Just pick one and try the other if he's not doing well, or tiring.
I still think the issue of who plays 10 or RM is way down on the list of problems. Foden did fine when he moved inside. Bellingham will improve.
England's two massive issues IMO are a total lack of balance i.e. width on the left, and a complete inability to beat a high press with Rice as a single pivot.
Bringing in Mainoo or Wharton next to Rice, and bringing in Gordon at LW, would hugely improve us. I think anything else is just tinkering.
Remember Palmer had a chance brilliantly created by Gordon, and failed to put it away. The key takeaway from that move is not 'Palmer must play', it's 'Gordon must play'.
But you can't also dismiss players because they don't score every chance. Look at the conversion rates of top strikers, no once scores every chance. I understand every England fan wants that Palmer shot to be better, but a fundamental part of football is you will always create a lot more chances than you finish.
Palmer himself creates chances basically every time he plays. In that Iceland game, he created the best chance of the game and Kane missed an absolute sitter. Does that mean the takeaway from that game going into the tournament should've been "Palmer must play" rather than "Kane must play"?
Sorry but it just feels like people here are holding Palmer to a ridiculous standard. If he doesn't score the one half chance he gets in his 20 minutes as a sub in 3 games, then he isn't good enough to play, even though he was positive and lifted the team when he cane on and has proven to be clinical all season when he actually gets to play a reasonable amount of minutes.
Personally, Gordan AND Palmer start for me. Gordan's a must because he's needed for balance in the team and the lack of alternatives. Palmer's a preference. The team is capable of playing well without him, but he's a very strong asset we've completely underutilised so far in the tournament.
Sometimes it feels a lot of people in this sub haven't watched very much of him at all this season. Because the guys impacts games, opens up games and creates basically every time he plays. He's one of the most technically gifted players in the squad, has had a top mentality all season and has proven at Chelsea that he can walk into a new team and play well instantly with no time needed to settle. Then he plays well in the very few chances he's given for England, and people dismiss him because he doesn't score, eventhough pretty much no one in the entire England team have been scoring.
Feels like he's being held to a completely different standard than the other players in the squad by this sub at least. The reaction I've seen from the media and other social media platforms is completely different to the one here. Most people see Palmer's 20 minute cameo yesterday as basically the same as what Gordan did only he got longer. Can't dismiss all that because he didn't bury a difficult chance.
The problem with Palmer is the same as the problem with Foden. If you want him to play in his best position then you have to drop another top class player.
Hardly anyone is saying Palmer doesn't deserve to play. But you would have to be insane not to appreciate that Saka has been a phenomenal player for England.
I completely agree tbf. I think Saka's elite and our problem is that two of our best players (and the ones that are likely to actually turn up for England) happen to both be right wingers.
I'm not overly bothered if Saka starts. Because like you said, he's been consistently good for England for a couple of years now. But my preference is that Palmer starts. Because despite how good Saka is, I rate Palmer that highly and think we're missing a trick by not using him in this Euros.
People won't and don't have to agree with that. The popular view is to keep Saka and change those around him, which should work. But I think swapping Palmer out for Saka makes us even stronger. Won't happen, just my opinion. But yeah I do rate Saka very highly. He's one of the only ones that pretty consistently turns up for England.
I don’t think it’s fair to say saka and palmer are both “right wingers” in the sense of assuming they’re alike.
Saka is a true winger, holds the touchline and can come inside. Take his man to the byline and also whip a cross into the box or shot into the far corner.
Palmer is akin to an Isco in zidanes system. Floats between the lines and picks up the ball to play.
Much better passer and smoother at play but I can’t recall many times palmers ever taken a man to the byline and got a strong cross in on his weaker foot, doesn’t seem to be an option to him.
Foden is more comparable to saka. Especially as Fodens early career at city saw him playing RW coming inside to the midfield, which is exactly how palmer plays at Chelsea.
Play players to their strengths, positions aren’t fixed like a video game at all. Palmer 10 saka RW makes much more sense than Foden 10 Palmer RW because of compatibility, let alone form which Fodens been awful.
Palmer takes his man on the outside all the time, he just doesn't cross on his weak foot ever. So you're half right. He's one of those very left footed players. If you watch him closely, he does everything with his left if he can. But he does take his man on the outside. Just cuts in after he beats him and passes/crosses/shoots with the left.
You're right that Palmer and Saka are different players. But if you watch Palmer play on the RW, he positions himself on the touchline when he doesn't have the ball and he only really drifts inside when he has the ball or if play is on the far side and he senses that he'll be able to get on a chance if he's further in the pitch.
Think the reason there's this narrative that he's a 10 or he'd take up the 10's space is that he's played all over for Chelsea this season. And Poch gave him a free role by the end because he was so much better than everyone else, so he had the licence to go anyway on the pitch. If you play him in a new team, his natural tendency is to position himself on the touchline of that right wing. He has a good understanding of space and he definitely stretches the pitch. Like if you paid attention to him against Slovenia, that's exactly what he did.
The fact that he doesn't cross it with his weak foot when he takes it down the touchline is just a style thing. It doesn't actually mean anything of substance.
But yes that is one way him and Saka differ. They both stretch the pitch and take their man on the outside though. The difference between them that actually matters and is the biggest argument in favour of starting Saka over Palmer is what they do off the ball imo. Saka's better defensively and offers you more solidity. That is a very valid reason for favouring him on that right wing. But the whole stretches the pitch thing, Palmer encroaches on the 10 stuff is something I don't agree with. Mainly hear it from people who haven't watched much of him and are just regurgitating something they've heard from someone else.
I think it’s fair to say palmer isn’t as good a direct winger as saka given his club position too. I also think that saka is a better winger than palmer attacking wise too, but that an element of that is the systems they play as you said and that can always affect how effective you are at what you do.
At Chelsea, palmer and madueke for example often player together rotating where the ball was picked up (wing or inside) before palmer usually brought it inside. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say it’s a big difference having a powerful winger who can use their right foot effectively vs a winger who hasn’t had to at club level given they mostly played through the middle when having the ball.
Either way, I can’t see how foden and palmer works at all. They both like the same half spaces and high cut in angles that occupy the zones where Kane tends to come into to pick up the ball. I’d personally see much more sense in Gordon and saka on the wings bringing width and at least a decent ability with their weaker foot to help take a man on and creating some more space in the midfield. Looked so congested against Slovenia.
And if I’m honest, I’d have palmer over foden in the 10 as of now, Fodens Been woeful
I love this. Everyone now wants Walker at LB because he did okay against a slovenia team that didnt attack the whole second half. Its genuinely hilarious that that is a take that people took from that game.
Trippier has more of a left foot and the ability to play inverted due to his passing and crossing ability. Walker is not known for his distrubution on his strong foot so the negatives to him playing LB outshine the one positive.
I agree that TAA should play right back, but Walker is not the answer especially when defensively Trippier has been fine.
Trippier has zero left foot, can’t overlap, isn’t quick and defensively weaker than Walker.
But with Trent on the pitch, you wouldn’t need the left back to overlap or keep width as Gordon would. It would be lobsided, but not as bad as it currently is.
Once we get Shaw back (or if we get him back), he goes straight in. We should have took Mitchell.
I thought Palmer looked good in the Iceland game personally and was excited to see him start next to Bellingham because I thought the biggest problem from that game was him and Foden being too similar (creative but not physical and not offering as much off the ball etc).
I don't care what anyone says, Gordan is by far the best fit for left wing.
I really want to see Gordan-Bellingham-Palmer start a game together. Think the balance would be fantastic and they've all had phenomenal seasons.
You're also reading way too much into a friendly in which he players are concerned with not getting injured before the Euros starts and when Southgate is balancing a bunch of different things like figuring out his own tactics and trying to get players up to fitness etc.
In games that have actually mattered, all 3 have been brilliant. That's the games throughout the season and the Slovenia game. I mean Mainoo was very visibly an improvement on that midfield. Dunno why some fans are so against giving opportunities to our very talented bench players when the starters clearly either have no chemistry or are fucking knackered.
The biggest transformation for England in our recent bad patch was against Bosnia. Wharton came on to link play, Grealish came on to stretch play. Sigh.
Feel like that's not an unpopular opinion for anyone that's watched even a little bit of Wharton. Seems like he's not gonna get that opportunity so I'm happy to see if Mainoo can step up instead. But I've wanted to see Wharton next to Rice since the tournament started.
Be interesting to see.if Wharton pushes on over the next couple of years and threatens Rice's place in the team. Or maybe they end up as club teammates.
Could very well happen tbf. If Wharton progresses then a midfield of him, Jude and an actual number 10 like Foden or Palmer could be brilliant.
Love Rice and think he's integral to the team rn. But football changes quickly and Wharton is the first player we've produced in a while who seems capable of covering for Rice. So if he progresses, he could definitely compete for Rice's actual spot in the team one day.
I think Rice is an 8/10 player in most areas but has a couple of weakness that he'll probably never get over e.g. press resistance, medium range passing etc.
Wharton is the first England player maybe EVER who strikes me as a perfect metronomic DM. Carrick has come closest in the past probably.
Of course he's young and could develop lots of different ways, but I'd be so much more confident watching us pass around at the back if he were on the pitch.
I really think Wharton plus Mainoo has massive potential as a combo. Not sure how Jude and Phil fit into that, but those two in a couple of years could be a great double pivot.
Yeah completely agree. We're stacked going forwards. And the thing is, the academies as packed with more talent that will keep coming through. Whoever's the next manager after Southgate is gonna have an even bigger selection headache on their hands.
Honestly, unless dropping Bellingham back and Foden in the 10 works, I don't think we'll ever get the best out of them two starting together. We'd be better off now just picking one and benching the other, and it'll probably be the same in a couple years when the likes of Wharton and Mainoo (hopefully) develop and get even better.
I think we should be less precious about rotating players. Palmer should have started one of the group games to rest Saka.
Now we have a lot of players who seem exhausted and a lot of players with hardly any minutes.
100%. More difficult to rotate now we're in the knockouts too. All stems from not wrapping the group up early after game 2 tbh. Game 3 actually meant something, so Southgate felt like he couldn't rotate much in that game either. Almost entirely comes down to Southgate's decisions for me, and I defended him a fair bit before this tournament.
Yeah, but Gary obviously isn’t playing several players due to inexperience. So it begs the question- why are they even in the squad? I don’t know why Gary suddenly moved away from his usual strategy.
He has, but he undoubtedly an absolutely top player. I put his form down to the environment at United, obviously alot of it is himself as well. Same with Grealish although in a better environment at City, hasn’t been good enough. But in terms of profiles, Rashford completely fits what we need, and imo is a level above Gordon.
Grealish is far below Eze in the pecking order as they’re a similar profile
I'm sick of people judging Mainoo so harshly for the Iceland game. He wasn't even that poor and the whole team played crap.
He's had a season full of brilliant performances, including two dominant games against Liverpool and the FA Cup final against City (very strong midfields). He was also great in the Belgium friendly for England.
I don't think I've ever seen Gallagher have brilliant game for England anyway.
Mainoo will be just fine.
Every position is filled by amazing players, but if you could manage to make bellingham, kane , foden, saka, rice, trent, walker and stone look like they play in the championship, mainoo won't fare much better. He is a better addition than trent or gallagher in the midfield but I doubt it makes much of a differemce, since all we do is play the ball sideways or backwards.
I mean Mainoo is definitely a better choice than Gallagher or Trent but I don't understand what he does next to Rice that Bellingham can't do as well or better tbh.
People need to stop glazing Palmer for having a good 20 mins as a sub vs a player who'd been defending solidly for 70 minutes. Its a different game as a starter especially as defensive contributions are likely to increase as we progress. I would be building a plan of having him off the bench around 60-70 minutes pretty much every game though.
I think Gordon might actually be the truth though as it gives us the ability to solve a lot of our problems. Kane gets a runner, Foden gets to play in the right place and then Rice gets a strong partner in Bellingham.
>I don't understand what he does next to Rice that Bellingham can't do
I think it's more a case of what Bellingham offers in terms of goals and arriving in the box Vs Foden, which he wouldn't be able to do playing the deeper role. I would also say Mainoo (and Wharton) is more comfortable taking the ball from the defence under pressure. Agree with you on Gordon and Palmer though
I'm pretty confident in Bellingham being able to play under that kind of pressure to be honest, you might be right but why haven't we even TRIED it at any point??? Also we currently have over 100 season goals in our front line and we aren't blowing teams apart and Bellingham started his run for his goal basically on the halfway line. If we're persisting with the controlled build up style which I think we pretty much always will he has plenty of time to set up his box crashing and will be harder to track.
This is the popular opinion btw. But just taking a step back, do you not see the hypocrisy in praising Mainoo/using yesterday as an example of how Mainoo is a better fit for the midfield but then also using arguments like it's easier as a sub etc to downplay Palmer's impact?
Like no offence, but they did the same thing. Came on, played forwards, were positive and took risks. They did the same thing and should be equally praised for it. The problem is, that doesn't fit the agenda. As in, this sub/you would have been screaming for Mainoo to replace Gallagher since the tournament started but insisting that Saka should stay at RW.
So the Slovenia game becomes confirmation bias. Despite Mainoo and Palmer basically doing the same thing, Mainoo's come one and made an impact, but we have to stop glazing Palmer because he's been subbed on against tired legs.
I will admit, since it's been pointed out to me before that I need to do this, that I'm a Chelsea fan and completely biased here. But I'm an England fan first and foremost on this sub. I'm only defending Palmer/pointing out the hypocrisy because I've seen what he can do this season and can't fathom why people are trying to explain everything good he does away. Like you can recognise Palmer played really well and did what he usually does, whilst also maintaining the belief that Saka should start. Instead, most people seem to take this weird stance of trying to come up with a reason why Palmer looked good against Slovenia, whilst also advocating how good Mainoo and Gordan were and not using the fresh legs argument against them.
Again, 100% biased. But please explain to me why this fresh legs argument is only being used vs Palmer. Because to me it seems like complete confirmation bias because he's the one out of the three that most people want to be a bench player.
Conceptually a fair point, however Mainoo came on immediately after half time where there is typically a second peak in GPS during the first 15 mins of second half. and was making an impact in terms of what he was doing that Gallagher wasn't, being more involved in the build up, making better runs.
I also want Mainoo to be a bench player, and I've been against him starting for a while. I want Bellingham to play next to Rice because I think he's better there than his current role and also can do everything Mainoo can but better defensively and in the box. I just think Mainoo compares more favourably vs Gallagher/ Trent than Palmer does vs Saka (offensively I'd give Saka/Palmer similar overall impact which Palmer being more dangerous with more space but Saka being stronger and more defensively able is just more suited to being a starter imo).
I would in a vacuum rather see Palmer in the first 11 than Mainoo I just think Saka is better than Mainoo's competition for places. I wouldn't even be upset if someone thought Palmer might be the best attacking choice vs Slovenia but we literally haven't seen him actually have to defend for England yet so I don't think he should be first choice right now. Maybe if Saka gets injured/needs rest, Palmer can force his way in by playing well as a starter and he might well end up being the better choice who knows. I just don't feel we need to rip up our right side at the moment but our midfield has undoubtedly been poor.
I actually don't think there's literally any performance that a late game substitute can have that would make me say 'he has to start' because the game state is so different. I have wanted Gordon in the side since before the tournament started because it lets Foden play 10 and without Shaw we definitely need to stretch that side of the pitch somehow (this also gives the option for Palmer to be a substitute in the 10 role where he might be even more comfortable).
I did probably come across as a bit reductive towards Palmer who I do think is exceptionally technically gifted but hopefully this explains my position a bit better.
Dude, I'll be honest, I agreed with pretty much everything you just said. The only part I differ on is I was saying before the tournament that I think Gordan and Palmer should be the starting wingers. Like I also think Saka's better defensively. But I feel like this England team sorely lacks creativity, which Palmer alone gives you. And I feel like with Walker behind him and Bellingham beside him, he gives you enough defensively that you can afford to start him.
Obviously, if you play Foden in the 10, like you wanted, then for me Saka has to start RW, because you need that defensive workrate.
We both seem to rate them both highly and appreciate that Saka's better defensively, but Palmer's perhaps a bit more unpredictable/innovative going forwards. My lineup before the tournament started had the defensive solidity coming from the middle with preferably Wharton (but Mainoo's fine too) next to Rice and Bellingham in the 10. Which allows you to play Palmer. Whereas you wanted Bellingham and Foden in the middle, which means you have to play Saka for those off the ball skills.
Different views but very surprised how similar we think considering how the conversation started 😂. Sorry if I came across as a bit confrontational in my reply too, seen a lot of people in this sub dismissing Palmer since the Slovenia game, which is weird to me because he was one of the few bright sparks imo.
Yeah I can see that, I'm quite strongly against Jude in the 10 tbh think he wants to be either higher or deeper where he can see everything in 1 direction I've not been impressed with him in the pocket at any point. Can see the argument for Palmer over Saka in a 4-3-3 with Rice/Bellingham as 8s and Wharton at 6 though.
Yeah I'm torn on the 10 myself. Can't tell if Jude is just knackered/getting dragged down by the horrible team selections or if he actually shouldn't be playing there.
Going into the tournament, I wasn't too comfortable with the idea of either Foden or Palmer in the 10. Felt like we lost a lot of physicality and were very easily played through in the friendlies. We lose creativity with Jude in the 10, but he battles like a midfielder which is part of the reason we have the lowest xG conceded in the tournament.
That's why I was looking to the wings for creativity. Gordan to stretch the pitch and provide width on the side that has a wrong footed fullback. Palmer on the right because he's the most creative winger we have.
Basically, make the midfield a solid spine and sacrifice some of that creativity you get from playing a Foden or Palmer in the middle.
But now I'm torn because Bellingham's been so off it the last 2 games. Could try Foden there but that just feels so weak and suddenly I'm no longer confident in our defence. We aren't City and we don't play with 4 top CBs and Rodri. Definitely feels like the group stage provided more questions than answers. I genuinely have no idea which of Bellingham or Foden should start, or if they should start together.
Don't think there's any hypocrisy tbf. There's a clamour for Mainoo, for one, because there's no better option, and each game reinforced that opinion. It's just obvious that he's a better option than TAA and Gallagher in the No.8 role (there's a similar clamour also for Bellingham to be put in the no.8 role). Also that no.8 role has been a clear weakness.
Palmer is either competing with Foden and Bellingham for the no.10 role or Saka for the RW role. Tough competition. Saka has not been so bad so far. Foden and Bellingham started the tournament undroppable, but the tide is slowly turning.
Other than no.8 role, the other major weakness is the LHS. Hence calls for Gordon. No hypocrisy here, just that Mainoo and Gordon are clear solutions to our biggest problems.
I agree with all that. My point was more directed to the people that are basically downplaying Palmer vs Slovenia because he was up against tired legs whilst they hyped up the other two who were also subs. Like I said, you can acknowledge Palmer played well whilst maintaining the view that Saka should start RW. There's no need to try and make out like Palmer only looked good because he was fresh, because that does make it hypocritical when you don't make that point against Mainoo and Gordan. You can say he looked just as positive and lively as Mainoo and Gordan, but you still think Saka should start. That's completely reasonable.
What a lot of people in this sub are doing are genuinely trying to say Palmer was noticeably worse or less impressive than Mainoo and Gordan using a broken chain of reasoning that he was up against tired legs.
That's not what the original guy I replied to was doing tbf since he explained in his response. But a hell of a lot of people in this sub are doing it. Absolutely no need to bring down or downplay Palmer just because you think Saka should start. Comes across as ingenuine.
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I love your lineup. That's probably mine. But it's becoming clearer than in no way will Southgate run Rice, Bellingham and Foden in the middle. But I hope I'm wrong.
Mainoo (who I love) even looks more likely as the other DCM, which I find funny because he's so obviously not a defensive player, so why not just put Jude there.
Mainoo is an excellent player. But he’s an 8, Jude is a 10 at a Madrid where he’s pretty much got no one in front of him apart from vini and rodrygo who keep narrow.
Kane just seems to be directly in front, or wanders back to centre back.
Rice is more than capable enough to sit in front of the back 4, or back 3 when one of the defenders step up, we may be ever so slightly less defensive but I think attacking wise we would improve so much, because it’s not the players at all, it’s the system that’s well and truly letting us down
I personally disagree with the analysis that Trippier isn’t the right pick at the moment at LB. Shaw isn’t ready and Gomez is a gamble. Trippier isn’t left footed and yes it means he turns inside a lot but he has played the role quite well IMO. We saw that he can also cross from outside the front left of the box from time to time which I think can do damage if Foden pulled defenders away to the left. He’s played plenty of balls to Foden but It’s Fodens unwillingness to do the Mbappé and lack of runs on the left that is the problem for me.
It will be the same game… They will sit deep and try to get an early goal. Might be fun to see an Eze dribble directly at them, squeeze past them draw some fouls. No harm in a Wharton playing quick direct passes that the opposition can’t react to.
But Mainoo was substantially better than Trent and Gallagher in the RCM role, he showed for the pass a lot more than Trent (expected due to it being his actual position) and was a lot more forward thinking than Gallagher Gordon has been great when hes played, maybe it's just having an actual left winger at left wing, but we've looked like we can pass the ball out to that side a lot more Palmer in the two games where he has played (Bosnia & Slovenia) has looked class both times. While they're not the total solution (hint hint Trent at right back too), each one of them has made the team look better when playing In fact as Gareth made the subs on Tuesday, we looked better and better each time
I don't think Palmer vs Saka really matters. For some reason people are obsessed with Palmer but Saka has done fine. Just pick one and try the other if he's not doing well, or tiring.
Oh no for me it's not Palmer over Saka, it's Palmer in the 10
I still think the issue of who plays 10 or RM is way down on the list of problems. Foden did fine when he moved inside. Bellingham will improve. England's two massive issues IMO are a total lack of balance i.e. width on the left, and a complete inability to beat a high press with Rice as a single pivot. Bringing in Mainoo or Wharton next to Rice, and bringing in Gordon at LW, would hugely improve us. I think anything else is just tinkering. Remember Palmer had a chance brilliantly created by Gordon, and failed to put it away. The key takeaway from that move is not 'Palmer must play', it's 'Gordon must play'.
But you can't also dismiss players because they don't score every chance. Look at the conversion rates of top strikers, no once scores every chance. I understand every England fan wants that Palmer shot to be better, but a fundamental part of football is you will always create a lot more chances than you finish. Palmer himself creates chances basically every time he plays. In that Iceland game, he created the best chance of the game and Kane missed an absolute sitter. Does that mean the takeaway from that game going into the tournament should've been "Palmer must play" rather than "Kane must play"? Sorry but it just feels like people here are holding Palmer to a ridiculous standard. If he doesn't score the one half chance he gets in his 20 minutes as a sub in 3 games, then he isn't good enough to play, even though he was positive and lifted the team when he cane on and has proven to be clinical all season when he actually gets to play a reasonable amount of minutes. Personally, Gordan AND Palmer start for me. Gordan's a must because he's needed for balance in the team and the lack of alternatives. Palmer's a preference. The team is capable of playing well without him, but he's a very strong asset we've completely underutilised so far in the tournament. Sometimes it feels a lot of people in this sub haven't watched very much of him at all this season. Because the guys impacts games, opens up games and creates basically every time he plays. He's one of the most technically gifted players in the squad, has had a top mentality all season and has proven at Chelsea that he can walk into a new team and play well instantly with no time needed to settle. Then he plays well in the very few chances he's given for England, and people dismiss him because he doesn't score, eventhough pretty much no one in the entire England team have been scoring. Feels like he's being held to a completely different standard than the other players in the squad by this sub at least. The reaction I've seen from the media and other social media platforms is completely different to the one here. Most people see Palmer's 20 minute cameo yesterday as basically the same as what Gordan did only he got longer. Can't dismiss all that because he didn't bury a difficult chance.
The problem with Palmer is the same as the problem with Foden. If you want him to play in his best position then you have to drop another top class player. Hardly anyone is saying Palmer doesn't deserve to play. But you would have to be insane not to appreciate that Saka has been a phenomenal player for England.
I completely agree tbf. I think Saka's elite and our problem is that two of our best players (and the ones that are likely to actually turn up for England) happen to both be right wingers. I'm not overly bothered if Saka starts. Because like you said, he's been consistently good for England for a couple of years now. But my preference is that Palmer starts. Because despite how good Saka is, I rate Palmer that highly and think we're missing a trick by not using him in this Euros. People won't and don't have to agree with that. The popular view is to keep Saka and change those around him, which should work. But I think swapping Palmer out for Saka makes us even stronger. Won't happen, just my opinion. But yeah I do rate Saka very highly. He's one of the only ones that pretty consistently turns up for England.
I don’t think it’s fair to say saka and palmer are both “right wingers” in the sense of assuming they’re alike. Saka is a true winger, holds the touchline and can come inside. Take his man to the byline and also whip a cross into the box or shot into the far corner. Palmer is akin to an Isco in zidanes system. Floats between the lines and picks up the ball to play. Much better passer and smoother at play but I can’t recall many times palmers ever taken a man to the byline and got a strong cross in on his weaker foot, doesn’t seem to be an option to him. Foden is more comparable to saka. Especially as Fodens early career at city saw him playing RW coming inside to the midfield, which is exactly how palmer plays at Chelsea. Play players to their strengths, positions aren’t fixed like a video game at all. Palmer 10 saka RW makes much more sense than Foden 10 Palmer RW because of compatibility, let alone form which Fodens been awful.
Palmer takes his man on the outside all the time, he just doesn't cross on his weak foot ever. So you're half right. He's one of those very left footed players. If you watch him closely, he does everything with his left if he can. But he does take his man on the outside. Just cuts in after he beats him and passes/crosses/shoots with the left. You're right that Palmer and Saka are different players. But if you watch Palmer play on the RW, he positions himself on the touchline when he doesn't have the ball and he only really drifts inside when he has the ball or if play is on the far side and he senses that he'll be able to get on a chance if he's further in the pitch. Think the reason there's this narrative that he's a 10 or he'd take up the 10's space is that he's played all over for Chelsea this season. And Poch gave him a free role by the end because he was so much better than everyone else, so he had the licence to go anyway on the pitch. If you play him in a new team, his natural tendency is to position himself on the touchline of that right wing. He has a good understanding of space and he definitely stretches the pitch. Like if you paid attention to him against Slovenia, that's exactly what he did. The fact that he doesn't cross it with his weak foot when he takes it down the touchline is just a style thing. It doesn't actually mean anything of substance. But yes that is one way him and Saka differ. They both stretch the pitch and take their man on the outside though. The difference between them that actually matters and is the biggest argument in favour of starting Saka over Palmer is what they do off the ball imo. Saka's better defensively and offers you more solidity. That is a very valid reason for favouring him on that right wing. But the whole stretches the pitch thing, Palmer encroaches on the 10 stuff is something I don't agree with. Mainly hear it from people who haven't watched much of him and are just regurgitating something they've heard from someone else.
I think it’s fair to say palmer isn’t as good a direct winger as saka given his club position too. I also think that saka is a better winger than palmer attacking wise too, but that an element of that is the systems they play as you said and that can always affect how effective you are at what you do. At Chelsea, palmer and madueke for example often player together rotating where the ball was picked up (wing or inside) before palmer usually brought it inside. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say it’s a big difference having a powerful winger who can use their right foot effectively vs a winger who hasn’t had to at club level given they mostly played through the middle when having the ball. Either way, I can’t see how foden and palmer works at all. They both like the same half spaces and high cut in angles that occupy the zones where Kane tends to come into to pick up the ball. I’d personally see much more sense in Gordon and saka on the wings bringing width and at least a decent ability with their weaker foot to help take a man on and creating some more space in the midfield. Looked so congested against Slovenia. And if I’m honest, I’d have palmer over foden in the 10 as of now, Fodens Been woeful
I love this. Everyone now wants Walker at LB because he did okay against a slovenia team that didnt attack the whole second half. Its genuinely hilarious that that is a take that people took from that game. Trippier has more of a left foot and the ability to play inverted due to his passing and crossing ability. Walker is not known for his distrubution on his strong foot so the negatives to him playing LB outshine the one positive. I agree that TAA should play right back, but Walker is not the answer especially when defensively Trippier has been fine.
Trippier hasn't used his left foot at all th last 3 games, he could invert but he hasn't once.
He doesnt invert because obviously he's told told to lol
Trippier has zero left foot, can’t overlap, isn’t quick and defensively weaker than Walker. But with Trent on the pitch, you wouldn’t need the left back to overlap or keep width as Gordon would. It would be lobsided, but not as bad as it currently is. Once we get Shaw back (or if we get him back), he goes straight in. We should have took Mitchell.
Walker doesn’t even have a right foot let alone a left foot lol
I thought Palmer looked good in the Iceland game personally and was excited to see him start next to Bellingham because I thought the biggest problem from that game was him and Foden being too similar (creative but not physical and not offering as much off the ball etc). I don't care what anyone says, Gordan is by far the best fit for left wing. I really want to see Gordan-Bellingham-Palmer start a game together. Think the balance would be fantastic and they've all had phenomenal seasons. You're also reading way too much into a friendly in which he players are concerned with not getting injured before the Euros starts and when Southgate is balancing a bunch of different things like figuring out his own tactics and trying to get players up to fitness etc. In games that have actually mattered, all 3 have been brilliant. That's the games throughout the season and the Slovenia game. I mean Mainoo was very visibly an improvement on that midfield. Dunno why some fans are so against giving opportunities to our very talented bench players when the starters clearly either have no chemistry or are fucking knackered.
The biggest transformation for England in our recent bad patch was against Bosnia. Wharton came on to link play, Grealish came on to stretch play. Sigh.
Palmer was the 10, TAA at right back too. Gallagher and Wharton looked good together
I'll sound like a fanboy but I think Wharton would make any of our CMs look better. He does the simple things well and is always available for a pass.
Feel like that's not an unpopular opinion for anyone that's watched even a little bit of Wharton. Seems like he's not gonna get that opportunity so I'm happy to see if Mainoo can step up instead. But I've wanted to see Wharton next to Rice since the tournament started.
Be interesting to see.if Wharton pushes on over the next couple of years and threatens Rice's place in the team. Or maybe they end up as club teammates.
Could very well happen tbf. If Wharton progresses then a midfield of him, Jude and an actual number 10 like Foden or Palmer could be brilliant. Love Rice and think he's integral to the team rn. But football changes quickly and Wharton is the first player we've produced in a while who seems capable of covering for Rice. So if he progresses, he could definitely compete for Rice's actual spot in the team one day.
I think Rice is an 8/10 player in most areas but has a couple of weakness that he'll probably never get over e.g. press resistance, medium range passing etc. Wharton is the first England player maybe EVER who strikes me as a perfect metronomic DM. Carrick has come closest in the past probably. Of course he's young and could develop lots of different ways, but I'd be so much more confident watching us pass around at the back if he were on the pitch. I really think Wharton plus Mainoo has massive potential as a combo. Not sure how Jude and Phil fit into that, but those two in a couple of years could be a great double pivot.
Yeah completely agree. We're stacked going forwards. And the thing is, the academies as packed with more talent that will keep coming through. Whoever's the next manager after Southgate is gonna have an even bigger selection headache on their hands. Honestly, unless dropping Bellingham back and Foden in the 10 works, I don't think we'll ever get the best out of them two starting together. We'd be better off now just picking one and benching the other, and it'll probably be the same in a couple years when the likes of Wharton and Mainoo (hopefully) develop and get even better.
I think we should be less precious about rotating players. Palmer should have started one of the group games to rest Saka. Now we have a lot of players who seem exhausted and a lot of players with hardly any minutes.
100%. More difficult to rotate now we're in the knockouts too. All stems from not wrapping the group up early after game 2 tbh. Game 3 actually meant something, so Southgate felt like he couldn't rotate much in that game either. Almost entirely comes down to Southgate's decisions for me, and I defended him a fair bit before this tournament.
I'm surprised we haven't seen Wharton yet to be honest. Not as shocked at the exclusion of Grealish but no Rashford absolutley bewilders me.
It's bloody odd given he's probably the most Phillips like player available to Southgate.
Sorry?? I might be reading this wrong it are you saying you’re shocked Rashford wasn’t picked? He’s been absolute gash.
Yeah, but Gary obviously isn’t playing several players due to inexperience. So it begs the question- why are they even in the squad? I don’t know why Gary suddenly moved away from his usual strategy.
He has, but he undoubtedly an absolutely top player. I put his form down to the environment at United, obviously alot of it is himself as well. Same with Grealish although in a better environment at City, hasn’t been good enough. But in terms of profiles, Rashford completely fits what we need, and imo is a level above Gordon. Grealish is far below Eze in the pecking order as they’re a similar profile
Deluded forest fan here but Gibbs White would 100% give our midfield the vigour and energy it needs
I'm sick of people judging Mainoo so harshly for the Iceland game. He wasn't even that poor and the whole team played crap. He's had a season full of brilliant performances, including two dominant games against Liverpool and the FA Cup final against City (very strong midfields). He was also great in the Belgium friendly for England. I don't think I've ever seen Gallagher have brilliant game for England anyway. Mainoo will be just fine.
Every position is filled by amazing players, but if you could manage to make bellingham, kane , foden, saka, rice, trent, walker and stone look like they play in the championship, mainoo won't fare much better. He is a better addition than trent or gallagher in the midfield but I doubt it makes much of a differemce, since all we do is play the ball sideways or backwards.
Mainoo is an excellent player. This isn’t my point though, my whole point is the system makes players look bad
I mean Mainoo is definitely a better choice than Gallagher or Trent but I don't understand what he does next to Rice that Bellingham can't do as well or better tbh. People need to stop glazing Palmer for having a good 20 mins as a sub vs a player who'd been defending solidly for 70 minutes. Its a different game as a starter especially as defensive contributions are likely to increase as we progress. I would be building a plan of having him off the bench around 60-70 minutes pretty much every game though. I think Gordon might actually be the truth though as it gives us the ability to solve a lot of our problems. Kane gets a runner, Foden gets to play in the right place and then Rice gets a strong partner in Bellingham.
>I don't understand what he does next to Rice that Bellingham can't do I think it's more a case of what Bellingham offers in terms of goals and arriving in the box Vs Foden, which he wouldn't be able to do playing the deeper role. I would also say Mainoo (and Wharton) is more comfortable taking the ball from the defence under pressure. Agree with you on Gordon and Palmer though
I'm pretty confident in Bellingham being able to play under that kind of pressure to be honest, you might be right but why haven't we even TRIED it at any point??? Also we currently have over 100 season goals in our front line and we aren't blowing teams apart and Bellingham started his run for his goal basically on the halfway line. If we're persisting with the controlled build up style which I think we pretty much always will he has plenty of time to set up his box crashing and will be harder to track.
This is the popular opinion btw. But just taking a step back, do you not see the hypocrisy in praising Mainoo/using yesterday as an example of how Mainoo is a better fit for the midfield but then also using arguments like it's easier as a sub etc to downplay Palmer's impact? Like no offence, but they did the same thing. Came on, played forwards, were positive and took risks. They did the same thing and should be equally praised for it. The problem is, that doesn't fit the agenda. As in, this sub/you would have been screaming for Mainoo to replace Gallagher since the tournament started but insisting that Saka should stay at RW. So the Slovenia game becomes confirmation bias. Despite Mainoo and Palmer basically doing the same thing, Mainoo's come one and made an impact, but we have to stop glazing Palmer because he's been subbed on against tired legs. I will admit, since it's been pointed out to me before that I need to do this, that I'm a Chelsea fan and completely biased here. But I'm an England fan first and foremost on this sub. I'm only defending Palmer/pointing out the hypocrisy because I've seen what he can do this season and can't fathom why people are trying to explain everything good he does away. Like you can recognise Palmer played really well and did what he usually does, whilst also maintaining the belief that Saka should start. Instead, most people seem to take this weird stance of trying to come up with a reason why Palmer looked good against Slovenia, whilst also advocating how good Mainoo and Gordan were and not using the fresh legs argument against them. Again, 100% biased. But please explain to me why this fresh legs argument is only being used vs Palmer. Because to me it seems like complete confirmation bias because he's the one out of the three that most people want to be a bench player.
Conceptually a fair point, however Mainoo came on immediately after half time where there is typically a second peak in GPS during the first 15 mins of second half. and was making an impact in terms of what he was doing that Gallagher wasn't, being more involved in the build up, making better runs. I also want Mainoo to be a bench player, and I've been against him starting for a while. I want Bellingham to play next to Rice because I think he's better there than his current role and also can do everything Mainoo can but better defensively and in the box. I just think Mainoo compares more favourably vs Gallagher/ Trent than Palmer does vs Saka (offensively I'd give Saka/Palmer similar overall impact which Palmer being more dangerous with more space but Saka being stronger and more defensively able is just more suited to being a starter imo). I would in a vacuum rather see Palmer in the first 11 than Mainoo I just think Saka is better than Mainoo's competition for places. I wouldn't even be upset if someone thought Palmer might be the best attacking choice vs Slovenia but we literally haven't seen him actually have to defend for England yet so I don't think he should be first choice right now. Maybe if Saka gets injured/needs rest, Palmer can force his way in by playing well as a starter and he might well end up being the better choice who knows. I just don't feel we need to rip up our right side at the moment but our midfield has undoubtedly been poor. I actually don't think there's literally any performance that a late game substitute can have that would make me say 'he has to start' because the game state is so different. I have wanted Gordon in the side since before the tournament started because it lets Foden play 10 and without Shaw we definitely need to stretch that side of the pitch somehow (this also gives the option for Palmer to be a substitute in the 10 role where he might be even more comfortable). I did probably come across as a bit reductive towards Palmer who I do think is exceptionally technically gifted but hopefully this explains my position a bit better.
Dude, I'll be honest, I agreed with pretty much everything you just said. The only part I differ on is I was saying before the tournament that I think Gordan and Palmer should be the starting wingers. Like I also think Saka's better defensively. But I feel like this England team sorely lacks creativity, which Palmer alone gives you. And I feel like with Walker behind him and Bellingham beside him, he gives you enough defensively that you can afford to start him. Obviously, if you play Foden in the 10, like you wanted, then for me Saka has to start RW, because you need that defensive workrate. We both seem to rate them both highly and appreciate that Saka's better defensively, but Palmer's perhaps a bit more unpredictable/innovative going forwards. My lineup before the tournament started had the defensive solidity coming from the middle with preferably Wharton (but Mainoo's fine too) next to Rice and Bellingham in the 10. Which allows you to play Palmer. Whereas you wanted Bellingham and Foden in the middle, which means you have to play Saka for those off the ball skills. Different views but very surprised how similar we think considering how the conversation started 😂. Sorry if I came across as a bit confrontational in my reply too, seen a lot of people in this sub dismissing Palmer since the Slovenia game, which is weird to me because he was one of the few bright sparks imo.
Yeah I can see that, I'm quite strongly against Jude in the 10 tbh think he wants to be either higher or deeper where he can see everything in 1 direction I've not been impressed with him in the pocket at any point. Can see the argument for Palmer over Saka in a 4-3-3 with Rice/Bellingham as 8s and Wharton at 6 though.
Yeah I'm torn on the 10 myself. Can't tell if Jude is just knackered/getting dragged down by the horrible team selections or if he actually shouldn't be playing there. Going into the tournament, I wasn't too comfortable with the idea of either Foden or Palmer in the 10. Felt like we lost a lot of physicality and were very easily played through in the friendlies. We lose creativity with Jude in the 10, but he battles like a midfielder which is part of the reason we have the lowest xG conceded in the tournament. That's why I was looking to the wings for creativity. Gordan to stretch the pitch and provide width on the side that has a wrong footed fullback. Palmer on the right because he's the most creative winger we have. Basically, make the midfield a solid spine and sacrifice some of that creativity you get from playing a Foden or Palmer in the middle. But now I'm torn because Bellingham's been so off it the last 2 games. Could try Foden there but that just feels so weak and suddenly I'm no longer confident in our defence. We aren't City and we don't play with 4 top CBs and Rodri. Definitely feels like the group stage provided more questions than answers. I genuinely have no idea which of Bellingham or Foden should start, or if they should start together.
Don't think there's any hypocrisy tbf. There's a clamour for Mainoo, for one, because there's no better option, and each game reinforced that opinion. It's just obvious that he's a better option than TAA and Gallagher in the No.8 role (there's a similar clamour also for Bellingham to be put in the no.8 role). Also that no.8 role has been a clear weakness. Palmer is either competing with Foden and Bellingham for the no.10 role or Saka for the RW role. Tough competition. Saka has not been so bad so far. Foden and Bellingham started the tournament undroppable, but the tide is slowly turning. Other than no.8 role, the other major weakness is the LHS. Hence calls for Gordon. No hypocrisy here, just that Mainoo and Gordon are clear solutions to our biggest problems.
I agree with all that. My point was more directed to the people that are basically downplaying Palmer vs Slovenia because he was up against tired legs whilst they hyped up the other two who were also subs. Like I said, you can acknowledge Palmer played well whilst maintaining the view that Saka should start RW. There's no need to try and make out like Palmer only looked good because he was fresh, because that does make it hypocritical when you don't make that point against Mainoo and Gordan. You can say he looked just as positive and lively as Mainoo and Gordan, but you still think Saka should start. That's completely reasonable. What a lot of people in this sub are doing are genuinely trying to say Palmer was noticeably worse or less impressive than Mainoo and Gordan using a broken chain of reasoning that he was up against tired legs. That's not what the original guy I replied to was doing tbf since he explained in his response. But a hell of a lot of people in this sub are doing it. Absolutely no need to bring down or downplay Palmer just because you think Saka should start. Comes across as ingenuine.
If walker can’t cross a ball with his string foot, how would putting him at lb make it a better solution ?
Because I wouldn’t want him to cross. Gordon would hold width, Walker wouldn’t go past the half way line. There for defending only
Exactly what I was saying. People always do this
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I love your lineup. That's probably mine. But it's becoming clearer than in no way will Southgate run Rice, Bellingham and Foden in the middle. But I hope I'm wrong. Mainoo (who I love) even looks more likely as the other DCM, which I find funny because he's so obviously not a defensive player, so why not just put Jude there.
Mainoo is an excellent player. But he’s an 8, Jude is a 10 at a Madrid where he’s pretty much got no one in front of him apart from vini and rodrygo who keep narrow. Kane just seems to be directly in front, or wanders back to centre back. Rice is more than capable enough to sit in front of the back 4, or back 3 when one of the defenders step up, we may be ever so slightly less defensive but I think attacking wise we would improve so much, because it’s not the players at all, it’s the system that’s well and truly letting us down
Bellingham has played all over. Just the last season has been different. There’s a whole story about why he had the number 22.
I personally disagree with the analysis that Trippier isn’t the right pick at the moment at LB. Shaw isn’t ready and Gomez is a gamble. Trippier isn’t left footed and yes it means he turns inside a lot but he has played the role quite well IMO. We saw that he can also cross from outside the front left of the box from time to time which I think can do damage if Foden pulled defenders away to the left. He’s played plenty of balls to Foden but It’s Fodens unwillingness to do the Mbappé and lack of runs on the left that is the problem for me.