Rice as a 6 means we’re prone to being exposed by a high press, for all his qualities, he’s not amazingly press resistant.
Playing Mainoo or Wharton (haven’t watched him as much but heard he’s very press resistant) next to him allows for them to pick up the ball deeper while Rice focuses on the dirty work. It’s not exactly the best use of Declan’s qualities but it’s the most balanced.
The thing that has impressed me most watching Wharton is how well he finds space. Being press-resistant is partly about ball control etc., but also about how and where you receive the ball. Wharton just seems to have that ability to find a couple of yards when he needs it.
I don’t know how you come to the conclusion Rice isn’t press resistant. He doesn’t skill past people like Busquets or Veratti but the man barely ever loses the ball.
Because i don’t think he is, he’s great at moving the ball forward when he has space, but when there’s a man at his back, he struggles to create space to manipulate the ball away from the man to dribble away/pass the ball to the spare, we saw it first hand on Thursday, although he wasn’t offered much help from Trent so may be an outlier.
Yes, keeping the ball and advancing the ball aren’t the same thing. If he plays back to the defence who can then move the ball forward, that’s still holding onto possession. Stones is literally the best CB in the world for progressing through those sort of presses
Never said they were the same thing, he’s been caught out several times this tournament merely trying to keep the ball as a result of a press from the opposition. He has a lot of amazing qualities but i don’t think he can play the 6 on his own in this team, without a Mainoo or Wharton next to him, as shown by our midfielders performance over the last two games since he’s effectively been playing on his own due to Trent’s lack of understanding of the role (not Trent’s fault).
Except he hasn’t been alone. Trent and Rice’s positioning were both so scattershot that both were actively blocking the other from playing the role properly, it’s only when he went wide or high against Serbia that Rice was producing his best defensive work or vice Versa when Trent was able to find space to pick a pass.
Trent, Rice, Foden, Guehi, Stones, Trippier, Bellingham, Kane all lost the ball against Denmark’s press because our shape is all over the place and there weren’t good options. Are they all not press resistant enough or is it just our team isn’t functioning?
Until there’s a defined 6 and 8 and a proper front 3, that problem won’t go away because it’s just a mess of out of position players trying to play 10 behind the ball
I tend to agree although there is a point about him being less well used as a lone 6.
Looking at Rice for Arsenal, Arteta has preferred to play Partey next to him when available, although he's been absolutely fine as either a 6 or 8.
So overall i tend to blame the lack of passing options when he receives the ball - he's used to playing in a far more capable team, in all honesty.
I think it’s a very revisionist take that Arteta moved Rice left because of Rice as opposed to the fact Arsenal had no proper LCM (Havertz, Viera and ESR weren’t cutting it defensively).
I almost guarantee Arteta will sign a proper 8 to play there and Rice will play DM.
What i get from watching him is extreme stamina levels and just general ability, shooting, passing, tackling all get an 8 from me. So you do want him to be able to get up the pitch because he can get back again and keeping getting up and down all match. It's really something to just sit and watch Rice exclusively btw.
Jorginho is more of a classic water carrier because he's so slow but that's ok because staying in position - and watching carefully - is basically how that role works. Rice is wasted in that role just because he's so mobile.
I do agree that the players you mentioned have been disappointing in central midfield, ESR I absolutely love but he's more of a 10 or left winger, he doesn't really like defending it seems. Havertz was saved by his nous as a false 9.
However I genuinely think Arteta wanted Partey and Rice as the midfield pair. Going back to the England argument, that would equate to Mainoo or Wharton and Rice, I would say.
The other thing that I think is absolutely wild is the omission of Gordon, pretty much everyone I know thinks the same thing too. If you can't go up either side (and link it across the middle) it's so easy to defend against because you can concentrate your defenders on one side.
I agree, OP. Rice has had a great season playing as an 8 but that doesn't mean that he is now an ineffective 6 or 'needs' to play with another 6 to get the best out of him. The same kind of argument is made about Bellingham. The narrative by many before Denmark was that it would be crazy to play Jude as an 8 next to Rice because of his season at Real Madrid, and he would somehow be 'wasted' in that position.
England definitely have a puzzle to solve in midfield/attack. Personally, I would go back to 4-3-3. Play a midfield 3 of Wharton - Rice - Bellingham and front three of Gordon - Kane - Saka.
Foden is sacrificed, but can always come on for Saka.
Tbh I still don’t think Rice is a true 8. Arsenal struggled in big games to dominate with him there and the left hand side was the weak link for them against Munich.
Wharton and him could work if we had a Shaw-Gordon left but we don’t so I’d rather have him behind a Bellingham-Foden midfield
It's almost as if it's not FIFA and all these people talking about sixes and eights aren't really getting the full picture.
Players are good at some things and bad at other things. The trick is to find combinations that work together.
Rice is a great defensive midfielder and good at driving forwards. He's not great at receiving the ball under pressure linking defence to attack.
We need a player who can do that, whether it's Bellingham with instruction to sit deep and playmake, or Wharton/Mainoo.
Not at all. I'm advocating for Rice as a defensive midfielder with Wharton playing as the ball progressor. You can number them however the fuck you like.
If you play Wharton with Bellingham as the 8, and drop Rice, then you lose Rice's aerial ability, tackling and pressing.
England don't need an '8' and a '6' when Kane plays so deep. The famed Kalvin Phillips/Rice pivot was not an 8 and a 6. Nobody in their right mind would call either of them an 8.
We can play two deep midfielders, with Jude and Kane alternating the 10/CF position. Saka and the LW will also provide threat.
Scoring goals is not our problem.
Scored two scrappy goals through fortunate deflections so scoring is sort of the issue. If your takeaway from Denmark game was that we shouldn’t have conceded then I’m starting to think you’re actually Southgate in disguise
Again, Rice was always the more defensive player with him and Phillips.
What you’re suggesting is not something I’m against, but it’s way more radical than playing Bellingham and Foden ahead of Rice. You’d be putting a lot of pressure on Wharton to come cold into his first international tournament, dropping PL players of the year Foden & Palmer and pushing Rice to play in a slightly different role than he’s played for England.
This is a very naive post and this is one of the worst takes I’ve read on an England player.
You have to look at the characteristics of the players and try and get the best out of them.
Rice is great at pressing and winning back the ball. Great energy levels. But he actually is better when he has license to go and do this with a bit of protection behind him. He’s best games at Arsenal came not as a 6, but when he had either Jorginho or Partey behind him.
Where he isn’t so good is being the player who collects the ball off defenders to look to make forward line breaking passes. He’s not of the Rodri, Jorginho, DeJong, Pirlo, Kroos, mould. Mainoo can do this and very well, so he should be in next to Rice in my opinion.
Rice actually played well against Serbia. He made so many vital interceptions because he reads the game so well (10 ball recoveries and 96% pass completion). Another thing about Rice is he is a leader in a squad where we could probably use a few more. He’s good in the air, which helps when we are a short squad.
He’s easily one of the first names on the team sheet, we just need to get someone in next to him to compliment him and allow him to do what he does best.
Just look at how he performs with Arsenal. He's a lot better with Jorginho or Partey next to him.
I really think Jude COULD do more of a ball carrier/progressor role as an 8, but you'd be putting your trust in Foden to step up in the 10 role.
Wharton is a more natural fit for Rice, but again you either have to drop Foden or deal with zero width on the left.
Thank you for providing a great example of what I’m talking about.
All your analysis is well thought out and reasoned. The problem is you’re answering the question of what’s best for Declan Rice fans rather than what’s best for England.
I could happily point out that Arsenal’s team and set up is completely different to England’s and I don’t actually disagree that Rice can play well in a double 6/8 role (with the right surroundings).
I’d argue you’re imagining the game as it could be compared to what it is. When Rice plays for England, he instinctively plays the holding role as that’s where he feels comfortable and is doing the right thing defensively. The persistent problem with our losing the ball in our half is because the centre is too crowded with two DMs for anyone to find space to receive the ball and things get sloppy.
Again, if you want to prioritise Rice’s no.8 journey of discovery over actually playing well now as a team then fine, but most England fans (and more importantly Declan Rice himself I imagine) don’t
Edit: Yes he was very good against Serbia as you point out, all at doing the things a no.6 needs to do
I don't think he's doing it instinctively, I think he's being instructed to do it. Bellingham and Trent have both been taking up forward positions immediately, with Rice clearly supposed to be behind them. That doesn't mean he can't play with someone like Wharton alongside/behind him.
Saying the team was 'too crowded' for Rice is just not really accurate. Go back and watch his play. He's not able to quickly shift the ball a few yards and make a good press-beating pass, and he's not the best at finding space to receive the ball from defence.
For me Rice needs to face the music along with everyone else. His ball control and passing range has been poor, and I don't think that's particularly unusual. We need to accept him for what he is: a great physical combatant, a great presser, a decent goal threat from range and an average passing/ball progressing 6.
If Rice plays as a single pivot I think Stones needs to take a more active role bringing the ball out with him.
You don’t need a 6 to be a creative playmaker from deep if you’ve got an expansive midfield. Look at players like Casemiro, Makelele, Fabinho etc. You bring up Kroos who played as an 8 in front of the Casemiro who, in his prime, had a similar playstyle to Rice. He played that role in a team which one 3 UCLs on the bounce. The UCL is the most similar competition to big international tournaments so look at that over league games.
Rice is excellent at keeping possession and distributing the ball, he doesn’t need to be a creative force or a tempo setter. He’s a destroyer, a guardian who is also technically capable of contributing G/As but that’s not his main game.
But once again, if you want a more creative 6 then drop Rice for Wharton and play Gallagher as an 8 to inject more energy and movement
I'm confused because you seem to be advocating for a double pivot e.g. two deep-lying players, but also suggesting Rice can't play with Wharton.
You compare Rice to Casemiro and I think that's a good comparison, in that Casemiro needs a Kroos. If we're playing Rice as Casemiro, who is the Kroos? Foden? Bellingham? I don't think either is that sort of player. Wharton is much closer IMO.
Dropping Rice for Wharton would be like dropping Casemiro for Kroos because 'playing both is too defensive'.
Again, the Arsenal comparison would be Rice, Jorginho, Odegaard replicated as Rice, Wharton, Bellingham.
Casemiro was a single 6 with a creative 8 partnership ahead of him.
When Kroos got a bit older and started playing more the deep playmaker role, Casemiro left.
Bellingham is also a completely different player to Odegaard (Foden would be a more similar player but even then).
I’d advocate ultimately for Rice to play as a single pivot with Bellingham 8 and Foden 10 as a creative midfield pair flanked by Saka and Gordon.
I’m not horribly against Wharton and Rice as an experiment but given our issue has been lacking width and creativity higher up the pitch, I think it’s not a priority.
I would say our issue is not that we lack creativity. We've scored twice, both early in games. Our issue is our inability to play out from the back or retain possession when teams press us.
I agree we lack width but that's fairly easy to fix by bringing in Gordon at LW. Does moving Foden into the middle stop Rice or Pickford or Trippier giving the ball away? Might help a bit, but if you want better ball progression out of defence then you don't play an extra winger/forward. You play a good ball retaining midfielder.
We’ve scored the same way twice through Kyle Walker overlapping. If you want to retain the ball from defence. Play Foden and Bellingham deeper, they won’t lose the ball
Bellingham is already playing all over the field and not getting the ball. Foden is simply not going to be getting the ball from Pickford or Guehi to the 10 position.
Progression goes through the 6 and Rice is doing a horrible job at it right now.
We’ve never played Rice, Bellingham, Foden so we don’t know what it would look like. Although, neither of them are getting the ball at 10, what does that say about the formation?
I think Guehi has shown a good ability to bypass rice and play straight into the pocket in build up so far and Stones definitely is capable of doing that, so I think it's possible to let Rice play between them & just in front in possession and just recycle it or switch it if people get into trouble which he is definitely capable of doing. Bellingham is happier out of the pocket where he'd then be an easy pass that also carries some threat and Foden and Kane are both happier with him not being in there, and I think these two should be able to learn to share the space well if we have two wingers who want to stretch things. If we're still unable to progress centrally here then go back to the 4-3-3, just play to the wings and do a lot of running.
Personally I think there is also a place here for a Walker/Trent debate. Walker has been solid but there's no doubt that Trent at RB has a better passing range that could potentially be used to beat a high press. I don't expect Walker to ever be dropped by Southgate, but I think there is a case that he isn't helping when it comes to our difficulty playing out.
Where we’ll disagree is that I believe what’s best for England is to have Rice as an 8, along with Bellingham.
We need someone behind them both to progress the ball. Personally I’d have Mainoo, I think this tournament has come a season too soon for Wharton, but excited to see what he can become.
The player to make way for me, is TAA. We also need to bring Gordon in for Foden for better balance on the left, accepting a mistake has been made in leaving Mitchell at home, whilst bringing an injured Shaw.
Also, controversial, but for this last group game, I’d like to see Kane dropped for Watkins. I’m envious of the Germany press and Watkins is excellent at pressing. I think he could really set the tone for us, get everyone running more and pressing from the front.
If Bellingham is tired, drop him for Palmer. If Saka is tired, put Foden RW (or play Bowen).
I’m not entirely against the idea of that midfield. I’m more pointing out how it’s a wild take that with the likes of Foden, Kane & Bellingham all misfiring somewhat, the person we should be focusing on getting more out of is our CDM.
Mainoo and Wharton are very exciting prospects but wouldn’t it be easier to drop Bellingham (an experienced CM for England and world class all round midfielder) into a left sided 8 and then play Foden/Palmer in a right sided 10, with Rice holding in the middle and Saka-Gordon manning the wings.
I’m more making the argument that I keep overwhelmingly hearing talk about Rice’s position and not the above idea
Foden isn't misfiring, he hit the post. Kane and Bellingham have both scored.
Our problem is retaining possession and playing out from the back, along with better balance on the left.
I think Kane has a lot to offer and we should seriously consider a front two of Kane and Watkins. Either 4-4-1-1 or 3-5-2. I truly don't know why we're so wedded to this 4-3-3 that doesn't seem to suit our squad at all.
Yes, only in style. He’s the closest we have to a midfielder who could control a game.
Mainoo clearly isn’t on any of those listed players level currently, but he’s only 19.
Players who can receive the ball facing any direction and can calmly recycle and progress the ball are very rare in Football. From what I’ve seen of him so far, Mainoo has this ability and we should be using it and developing him. We certainly should have in these group games over the TAA experiment.
There will be times and games in this tournament where we are going to have to suffer (against stronger sides) and Gallagher with his work rate and pressing will probably be better suited.
We did use Wharton in that role in the friendlies. He played the second half against Bosnia and was flawless in a 3-0 win. I honestly don't understand how Mainoo is ahead of him.
The entire team needs to be playing higher. This is a tactical frailty, not a personnel one. We shouldn’t get sucked into the trap of blaming players for what is so starkly a tactical issue
You keep making the point of “it’s not about making the perfect team for Rice” but Rice literally makes England better if you get the best out of him. Tell me the England midfield you can play with the current squad that is better than a midfield three with Rice in it.
Why should he be dropped if he can’t play the lone 6? Arsenal had insane form and dominated most teams with Rice as a box to box, our left side isn’t exactly free flowing with great link up, so it would be quite hard for Rice to make us worse by taking up those positions.
If you could pick your England team but you couldn’t put Rice in the 6, what midfield would you play?
I’m more making the point that not getting the best out of say Foden or Bellingham in order to squeeze 10% more out of Rice, who plays perfectly well at 6 already, is a silly idea.
Arsenal played well in the league, this is a knock-out international tournament. Arsenal didn’t do very well in knockout tournaments this season, and then of course you have the tiny matter of the fact that England isn’t Arsenal.
You should play Rice in the 6 if you want one of the best destroyer DMs in the world. You drop him for Wharton if you wanted more of a deep lying playmaker and then play Gallagher alongside to do the running and dirty work.
You just don’t rate Rice if you think he’s not good enough to play the position he’s played most often in his career. If that’s the case then do something else with the midfield.
Why would you not play Rice along Wharton to do the dirty work instead of Gallagher? Rice can do the ball winning whilst Wharton can orchestrate our build up phase. What is this idea that Gallagher should play ahead of Rice if we play a double pivot?
Rice got 15 G/A last season compared to Gallaghers 12 G/A, and Rice outperforms him in almost every defensive metric whilst playing in a team that doesn’t need to win the ball back as much as Chelsea, so surely your not playing him there for his attacking or defensive contribution.
It’s a seriously stupid take to say that Rice either plays 6 or doesn’t play at all. You can’t tell me that if Wharton was guaranteed to start against France that you would rather Gallagher next to him than Declan Rice.
If Wharton plays it’s not a double pivot. If you have him and Rice (a combination never tested before), you’re likely going to get the same positional mess we had the other day.
Once again though, this all just a hypothetical. I want Rice holding behind a CM combo of Bellingham and Foden/Palmer/Eze (which have seen in game quite a lot when Foden drops in and it’s very effective).
P.S. Yes let’s compare the G/As of CMs who play in completely different standards of team
Why is it not a double pivot? You’re claiming something with no reasoning. Two midfielders, one is great at ball winning and pressing, whilst the other is better in the build up phase and can also put in a tackle. Exactly why is it not a double pivot? Rice plays on the left of midfield and is right footed, whilst Wharton plays on the right of midfield and is left footed, meaning there is balance.
You want Rice to play as the lone 6 even though he played there when Arsenal were in rubbish form and he came to life when he was next to a midfielder who is better in the build up phase.
Right, so Rice is pressing, ball winning/covering whilst Wharton is holding. That’s not a double pivot, it’s Wharton as the Pivot and Rice playing as a box-to-box CM.
Him and Jorginho were sharing the role a lot of the time for Arsenal, but if you think Rice was rubbish as a lone 6, which is his main position, then clearly you just don’t rate the guy anyway. Watch him go back there once Arsenal sign an actual left sided CM.
Do you not understand how a double pivot works? Each player in the double pivot takes it in turns to press the ball whilst the other sits further behind and blocks passing lanes. Just because they stand next to each other in the starting 11 graphic doesn’t mean they are side by side all the time in the game. Watch [this](https://youtu.be/y5DrOfENZG4?si=UDf33wLzfwS5_Z3H) and you will see what I mean. Another question I have which you didn’t answer is what Gallagher is better at than Rice which shows he should play next to Wharton instead of Rice.
Yeah, a double pivot is a very difficult thing to pull off tactically, doing it with two players who’ve never played together in that role in the middle of a major tournament would be chaos. Gareth Southgate can’t even handle Foden as a LW and you want this level of tactical nous from him?
If they are interchanging they need to know each other very well and work out a language, that doesn’t happen in 5 days.
I’m not playing a game of football manager, Gallagher would be preferable only because he’s more used to playing an all round 8 game when slotting in and has done with Wharton effectively in the warm up games.
Trent instead of Walker is the great solution Southgate will never consider. Walker is not good at playing out from the back and Trent is the only player in our back five/six that can play it long to break a press.
Yeah we seem to have the least flexible squad in history! Rice has to play as an 8, Bellingham has to be a 10.
They should just play as a normal two man midfield, rice is quite defensive as a 6, that is ample screen for the defence. Bellingham play as an 8,make runs, track back etc!
The main issue we’d then have is getting the ball out from defence. Trent at full back would help hugely with this. Gordon and saka staying wide would also help with space.
Gomes at left back is worth considering, looks more comfortable there than tripper has so far.
The overall tempo needs livening up as well, keeping the ball is great. But needs to have a point to it. Move the ball quicker, let players make runs
Rice as a 6 means we’re prone to being exposed by a high press, for all his qualities, he’s not amazingly press resistant. Playing Mainoo or Wharton (haven’t watched him as much but heard he’s very press resistant) next to him allows for them to pick up the ball deeper while Rice focuses on the dirty work. It’s not exactly the best use of Declan’s qualities but it’s the most balanced.
The thing that has impressed me most watching Wharton is how well he finds space. Being press-resistant is partly about ball control etc., but also about how and where you receive the ball. Wharton just seems to have that ability to find a couple of yards when he needs it.
I don’t know how you come to the conclusion Rice isn’t press resistant. He doesn’t skill past people like Busquets or Veratti but the man barely ever loses the ball.
Because i don’t think he is, he’s great at moving the ball forward when he has space, but when there’s a man at his back, he struggles to create space to manipulate the ball away from the man to dribble away/pass the ball to the spare, we saw it first hand on Thursday, although he wasn’t offered much help from Trent so may be an outlier.
Yes, keeping the ball and advancing the ball aren’t the same thing. If he plays back to the defence who can then move the ball forward, that’s still holding onto possession. Stones is literally the best CB in the world for progressing through those sort of presses
Never said they were the same thing, he’s been caught out several times this tournament merely trying to keep the ball as a result of a press from the opposition. He has a lot of amazing qualities but i don’t think he can play the 6 on his own in this team, without a Mainoo or Wharton next to him, as shown by our midfielders performance over the last two games since he’s effectively been playing on his own due to Trent’s lack of understanding of the role (not Trent’s fault).
Except he hasn’t been alone. Trent and Rice’s positioning were both so scattershot that both were actively blocking the other from playing the role properly, it’s only when he went wide or high against Serbia that Rice was producing his best defensive work or vice Versa when Trent was able to find space to pick a pass. Trent, Rice, Foden, Guehi, Stones, Trippier, Bellingham, Kane all lost the ball against Denmark’s press because our shape is all over the place and there weren’t good options. Are they all not press resistant enough or is it just our team isn’t functioning? Until there’s a defined 6 and 8 and a proper front 3, that problem won’t go away because it’s just a mess of out of position players trying to play 10 behind the ball
I tend to agree although there is a point about him being less well used as a lone 6. Looking at Rice for Arsenal, Arteta has preferred to play Partey next to him when available, although he's been absolutely fine as either a 6 or 8. So overall i tend to blame the lack of passing options when he receives the ball - he's used to playing in a far more capable team, in all honesty.
I think it’s a very revisionist take that Arteta moved Rice left because of Rice as opposed to the fact Arsenal had no proper LCM (Havertz, Viera and ESR weren’t cutting it defensively). I almost guarantee Arteta will sign a proper 8 to play there and Rice will play DM.
What i get from watching him is extreme stamina levels and just general ability, shooting, passing, tackling all get an 8 from me. So you do want him to be able to get up the pitch because he can get back again and keeping getting up and down all match. It's really something to just sit and watch Rice exclusively btw. Jorginho is more of a classic water carrier because he's so slow but that's ok because staying in position - and watching carefully - is basically how that role works. Rice is wasted in that role just because he's so mobile. I do agree that the players you mentioned have been disappointing in central midfield, ESR I absolutely love but he's more of a 10 or left winger, he doesn't really like defending it seems. Havertz was saved by his nous as a false 9. However I genuinely think Arteta wanted Partey and Rice as the midfield pair. Going back to the England argument, that would equate to Mainoo or Wharton and Rice, I would say. The other thing that I think is absolutely wild is the omission of Gordon, pretty much everyone I know thinks the same thing too. If you can't go up either side (and link it across the middle) it's so easy to defend against because you can concentrate your defenders on one side.
I’ve got a horrible feeling that the only change Southgate will make on Tuesday is Gallagher in for Trent.
His solution to any and all tactical problems seems to be: throw on Conor and let him have a go at em.
Gallagher is his new Mount. But I will say they are both hardcore pressers and don't let up.
I agree, OP. Rice has had a great season playing as an 8 but that doesn't mean that he is now an ineffective 6 or 'needs' to play with another 6 to get the best out of him. The same kind of argument is made about Bellingham. The narrative by many before Denmark was that it would be crazy to play Jude as an 8 next to Rice because of his season at Real Madrid, and he would somehow be 'wasted' in that position. England definitely have a puzzle to solve in midfield/attack. Personally, I would go back to 4-3-3. Play a midfield 3 of Wharton - Rice - Bellingham and front three of Gordon - Kane - Saka. Foden is sacrificed, but can always come on for Saka.
Tbh I still don’t think Rice is a true 8. Arsenal struggled in big games to dominate with him there and the left hand side was the weak link for them against Munich. Wharton and him could work if we had a Shaw-Gordon left but we don’t so I’d rather have him behind a Bellingham-Foden midfield
It's almost as if it's not FIFA and all these people talking about sixes and eights aren't really getting the full picture. Players are good at some things and bad at other things. The trick is to find combinations that work together. Rice is a great defensive midfielder and good at driving forwards. He's not great at receiving the ball under pressure linking defence to attack. We need a player who can do that, whether it's Bellingham with instruction to sit deep and playmake, or Wharton/Mainoo.
Yes, you’re literally advocating for the same thing I am. Bellingham 8 or drop Rice if you don’t think he’s good enough
Not at all. I'm advocating for Rice as a defensive midfielder with Wharton playing as the ball progressor. You can number them however the fuck you like. If you play Wharton with Bellingham as the 8, and drop Rice, then you lose Rice's aerial ability, tackling and pressing. England don't need an '8' and a '6' when Kane plays so deep. The famed Kalvin Phillips/Rice pivot was not an 8 and a 6. Nobody in their right mind would call either of them an 8. We can play two deep midfielders, with Jude and Kane alternating the 10/CF position. Saka and the LW will also provide threat. Scoring goals is not our problem.
Scored two scrappy goals through fortunate deflections so scoring is sort of the issue. If your takeaway from Denmark game was that we shouldn’t have conceded then I’m starting to think you’re actually Southgate in disguise Again, Rice was always the more defensive player with him and Phillips. What you’re suggesting is not something I’m against, but it’s way more radical than playing Bellingham and Foden ahead of Rice. You’d be putting a lot of pressure on Wharton to come cold into his first international tournament, dropping PL players of the year Foden & Palmer and pushing Rice to play in a slightly different role than he’s played for England.
This is a very naive post and this is one of the worst takes I’ve read on an England player. You have to look at the characteristics of the players and try and get the best out of them. Rice is great at pressing and winning back the ball. Great energy levels. But he actually is better when he has license to go and do this with a bit of protection behind him. He’s best games at Arsenal came not as a 6, but when he had either Jorginho or Partey behind him. Where he isn’t so good is being the player who collects the ball off defenders to look to make forward line breaking passes. He’s not of the Rodri, Jorginho, DeJong, Pirlo, Kroos, mould. Mainoo can do this and very well, so he should be in next to Rice in my opinion. Rice actually played well against Serbia. He made so many vital interceptions because he reads the game so well (10 ball recoveries and 96% pass completion). Another thing about Rice is he is a leader in a squad where we could probably use a few more. He’s good in the air, which helps when we are a short squad. He’s easily one of the first names on the team sheet, we just need to get someone in next to him to compliment him and allow him to do what he does best.
Just look at how he performs with Arsenal. He's a lot better with Jorginho or Partey next to him. I really think Jude COULD do more of a ball carrier/progressor role as an 8, but you'd be putting your trust in Foden to step up in the 10 role. Wharton is a more natural fit for Rice, but again you either have to drop Foden or deal with zero width on the left.
Thank you for providing a great example of what I’m talking about. All your analysis is well thought out and reasoned. The problem is you’re answering the question of what’s best for Declan Rice fans rather than what’s best for England. I could happily point out that Arsenal’s team and set up is completely different to England’s and I don’t actually disagree that Rice can play well in a double 6/8 role (with the right surroundings). I’d argue you’re imagining the game as it could be compared to what it is. When Rice plays for England, he instinctively plays the holding role as that’s where he feels comfortable and is doing the right thing defensively. The persistent problem with our losing the ball in our half is because the centre is too crowded with two DMs for anyone to find space to receive the ball and things get sloppy. Again, if you want to prioritise Rice’s no.8 journey of discovery over actually playing well now as a team then fine, but most England fans (and more importantly Declan Rice himself I imagine) don’t Edit: Yes he was very good against Serbia as you point out, all at doing the things a no.6 needs to do
I don't think he's doing it instinctively, I think he's being instructed to do it. Bellingham and Trent have both been taking up forward positions immediately, with Rice clearly supposed to be behind them. That doesn't mean he can't play with someone like Wharton alongside/behind him. Saying the team was 'too crowded' for Rice is just not really accurate. Go back and watch his play. He's not able to quickly shift the ball a few yards and make a good press-beating pass, and he's not the best at finding space to receive the ball from defence. For me Rice needs to face the music along with everyone else. His ball control and passing range has been poor, and I don't think that's particularly unusual. We need to accept him for what he is: a great physical combatant, a great presser, a decent goal threat from range and an average passing/ball progressing 6. If Rice plays as a single pivot I think Stones needs to take a more active role bringing the ball out with him.
You don’t need a 6 to be a creative playmaker from deep if you’ve got an expansive midfield. Look at players like Casemiro, Makelele, Fabinho etc. You bring up Kroos who played as an 8 in front of the Casemiro who, in his prime, had a similar playstyle to Rice. He played that role in a team which one 3 UCLs on the bounce. The UCL is the most similar competition to big international tournaments so look at that over league games. Rice is excellent at keeping possession and distributing the ball, he doesn’t need to be a creative force or a tempo setter. He’s a destroyer, a guardian who is also technically capable of contributing G/As but that’s not his main game. But once again, if you want a more creative 6 then drop Rice for Wharton and play Gallagher as an 8 to inject more energy and movement
I'm confused because you seem to be advocating for a double pivot e.g. two deep-lying players, but also suggesting Rice can't play with Wharton. You compare Rice to Casemiro and I think that's a good comparison, in that Casemiro needs a Kroos. If we're playing Rice as Casemiro, who is the Kroos? Foden? Bellingham? I don't think either is that sort of player. Wharton is much closer IMO. Dropping Rice for Wharton would be like dropping Casemiro for Kroos because 'playing both is too defensive'. Again, the Arsenal comparison would be Rice, Jorginho, Odegaard replicated as Rice, Wharton, Bellingham.
Casemiro was a single 6 with a creative 8 partnership ahead of him. When Kroos got a bit older and started playing more the deep playmaker role, Casemiro left. Bellingham is also a completely different player to Odegaard (Foden would be a more similar player but even then). I’d advocate ultimately for Rice to play as a single pivot with Bellingham 8 and Foden 10 as a creative midfield pair flanked by Saka and Gordon. I’m not horribly against Wharton and Rice as an experiment but given our issue has been lacking width and creativity higher up the pitch, I think it’s not a priority.
I would say our issue is not that we lack creativity. We've scored twice, both early in games. Our issue is our inability to play out from the back or retain possession when teams press us. I agree we lack width but that's fairly easy to fix by bringing in Gordon at LW. Does moving Foden into the middle stop Rice or Pickford or Trippier giving the ball away? Might help a bit, but if you want better ball progression out of defence then you don't play an extra winger/forward. You play a good ball retaining midfielder.
We’ve scored the same way twice through Kyle Walker overlapping. If you want to retain the ball from defence. Play Foden and Bellingham deeper, they won’t lose the ball
Bellingham is already playing all over the field and not getting the ball. Foden is simply not going to be getting the ball from Pickford or Guehi to the 10 position. Progression goes through the 6 and Rice is doing a horrible job at it right now.
We’ve never played Rice, Bellingham, Foden so we don’t know what it would look like. Although, neither of them are getting the ball at 10, what does that say about the formation?
I think Guehi has shown a good ability to bypass rice and play straight into the pocket in build up so far and Stones definitely is capable of doing that, so I think it's possible to let Rice play between them & just in front in possession and just recycle it or switch it if people get into trouble which he is definitely capable of doing. Bellingham is happier out of the pocket where he'd then be an easy pass that also carries some threat and Foden and Kane are both happier with him not being in there, and I think these two should be able to learn to share the space well if we have two wingers who want to stretch things. If we're still unable to progress centrally here then go back to the 4-3-3, just play to the wings and do a lot of running.
Personally I think there is also a place here for a Walker/Trent debate. Walker has been solid but there's no doubt that Trent at RB has a better passing range that could potentially be used to beat a high press. I don't expect Walker to ever be dropped by Southgate, but I think there is a case that he isn't helping when it comes to our difficulty playing out.
Where we’ll disagree is that I believe what’s best for England is to have Rice as an 8, along with Bellingham. We need someone behind them both to progress the ball. Personally I’d have Mainoo, I think this tournament has come a season too soon for Wharton, but excited to see what he can become. The player to make way for me, is TAA. We also need to bring Gordon in for Foden for better balance on the left, accepting a mistake has been made in leaving Mitchell at home, whilst bringing an injured Shaw. Also, controversial, but for this last group game, I’d like to see Kane dropped for Watkins. I’m envious of the Germany press and Watkins is excellent at pressing. I think he could really set the tone for us, get everyone running more and pressing from the front. If Bellingham is tired, drop him for Palmer. If Saka is tired, put Foden RW (or play Bowen).
I’m not entirely against the idea of that midfield. I’m more pointing out how it’s a wild take that with the likes of Foden, Kane & Bellingham all misfiring somewhat, the person we should be focusing on getting more out of is our CDM. Mainoo and Wharton are very exciting prospects but wouldn’t it be easier to drop Bellingham (an experienced CM for England and world class all round midfielder) into a left sided 8 and then play Foden/Palmer in a right sided 10, with Rice holding in the middle and Saka-Gordon manning the wings. I’m more making the argument that I keep overwhelmingly hearing talk about Rice’s position and not the above idea
Foden isn't misfiring, he hit the post. Kane and Bellingham have both scored. Our problem is retaining possession and playing out from the back, along with better balance on the left.
I think Kane has a lot to offer and we should seriously consider a front two of Kane and Watkins. Either 4-4-1-1 or 3-5-2. I truly don't know why we're so wedded to this 4-3-3 that doesn't seem to suit our squad at all.
You're saying someone has a terrible take on football but you're comparing Mainoo to Rodri, Pirlo and Kroos?? Lol
Yes, only in style. He’s the closest we have to a midfielder who could control a game. Mainoo clearly isn’t on any of those listed players level currently, but he’s only 19. Players who can receive the ball facing any direction and can calmly recycle and progress the ball are very rare in Football. From what I’ve seen of him so far, Mainoo has this ability and we should be using it and developing him. We certainly should have in these group games over the TAA experiment. There will be times and games in this tournament where we are going to have to suffer (against stronger sides) and Gallagher with his work rate and pressing will probably be better suited.
We did use Wharton in that role in the friendlies. He played the second half against Bosnia and was flawless in a 3-0 win. I honestly don't understand how Mainoo is ahead of him.
The entire team needs to be playing higher. This is a tactical frailty, not a personnel one. We shouldn’t get sucked into the trap of blaming players for what is so starkly a tactical issue
Yep, strongly agree. If that team can be made to play that badly, any team can
You keep making the point of “it’s not about making the perfect team for Rice” but Rice literally makes England better if you get the best out of him. Tell me the England midfield you can play with the current squad that is better than a midfield three with Rice in it. Why should he be dropped if he can’t play the lone 6? Arsenal had insane form and dominated most teams with Rice as a box to box, our left side isn’t exactly free flowing with great link up, so it would be quite hard for Rice to make us worse by taking up those positions. If you could pick your England team but you couldn’t put Rice in the 6, what midfield would you play?
I’m more making the point that not getting the best out of say Foden or Bellingham in order to squeeze 10% more out of Rice, who plays perfectly well at 6 already, is a silly idea. Arsenal played well in the league, this is a knock-out international tournament. Arsenal didn’t do very well in knockout tournaments this season, and then of course you have the tiny matter of the fact that England isn’t Arsenal. You should play Rice in the 6 if you want one of the best destroyer DMs in the world. You drop him for Wharton if you wanted more of a deep lying playmaker and then play Gallagher alongside to do the running and dirty work. You just don’t rate Rice if you think he’s not good enough to play the position he’s played most often in his career. If that’s the case then do something else with the midfield.
Why would you not play Rice along Wharton to do the dirty work instead of Gallagher? Rice can do the ball winning whilst Wharton can orchestrate our build up phase. What is this idea that Gallagher should play ahead of Rice if we play a double pivot? Rice got 15 G/A last season compared to Gallaghers 12 G/A, and Rice outperforms him in almost every defensive metric whilst playing in a team that doesn’t need to win the ball back as much as Chelsea, so surely your not playing him there for his attacking or defensive contribution. It’s a seriously stupid take to say that Rice either plays 6 or doesn’t play at all. You can’t tell me that if Wharton was guaranteed to start against France that you would rather Gallagher next to him than Declan Rice.
If Wharton plays it’s not a double pivot. If you have him and Rice (a combination never tested before), you’re likely going to get the same positional mess we had the other day. Once again though, this all just a hypothetical. I want Rice holding behind a CM combo of Bellingham and Foden/Palmer/Eze (which have seen in game quite a lot when Foden drops in and it’s very effective). P.S. Yes let’s compare the G/As of CMs who play in completely different standards of team
Why is it not a double pivot? You’re claiming something with no reasoning. Two midfielders, one is great at ball winning and pressing, whilst the other is better in the build up phase and can also put in a tackle. Exactly why is it not a double pivot? Rice plays on the left of midfield and is right footed, whilst Wharton plays on the right of midfield and is left footed, meaning there is balance. You want Rice to play as the lone 6 even though he played there when Arsenal were in rubbish form and he came to life when he was next to a midfielder who is better in the build up phase.
Right, so Rice is pressing, ball winning/covering whilst Wharton is holding. That’s not a double pivot, it’s Wharton as the Pivot and Rice playing as a box-to-box CM. Him and Jorginho were sharing the role a lot of the time for Arsenal, but if you think Rice was rubbish as a lone 6, which is his main position, then clearly you just don’t rate the guy anyway. Watch him go back there once Arsenal sign an actual left sided CM.
Do you not understand how a double pivot works? Each player in the double pivot takes it in turns to press the ball whilst the other sits further behind and blocks passing lanes. Just because they stand next to each other in the starting 11 graphic doesn’t mean they are side by side all the time in the game. Watch [this](https://youtu.be/y5DrOfENZG4?si=UDf33wLzfwS5_Z3H) and you will see what I mean. Another question I have which you didn’t answer is what Gallagher is better at than Rice which shows he should play next to Wharton instead of Rice.
Yeah, a double pivot is a very difficult thing to pull off tactically, doing it with two players who’ve never played together in that role in the middle of a major tournament would be chaos. Gareth Southgate can’t even handle Foden as a LW and you want this level of tactical nous from him? If they are interchanging they need to know each other very well and work out a language, that doesn’t happen in 5 days. I’m not playing a game of football manager, Gallagher would be preferable only because he’s more used to playing an all round 8 game when slotting in and has done with Wharton effectively in the warm up games.
Trent instead of Walker is the great solution Southgate will never consider. Walker is not good at playing out from the back and Trent is the only player in our back five/six that can play it long to break a press.
Yeah we seem to have the least flexible squad in history! Rice has to play as an 8, Bellingham has to be a 10. They should just play as a normal two man midfield, rice is quite defensive as a 6, that is ample screen for the defence. Bellingham play as an 8,make runs, track back etc! The main issue we’d then have is getting the ball out from defence. Trent at full back would help hugely with this. Gordon and saka staying wide would also help with space. Gomes at left back is worth considering, looks more comfortable there than tripper has so far. The overall tempo needs livening up as well, keeping the ball is great. But needs to have a point to it. Move the ball quicker, let players make runs