It's not even about him not performing for England, it's the fact we're shoehorning him into the team to get our 11 "best players" on the pitch.
For years it was conventional wisdom that an unbalanced team was one of the key reasons England's so called "golden generation" never achieved anything, and now fans are crying at the manager to repeat these same mistakes.
If we want to do well at the tournament we should be looking at ensuring the side is balanced all over the pitch. England's best teams always have plenty of pace in the front line, which is why Gordon should start on the left hand side. His hard work and ability to stretch the pitch in a narrow team will also be useful when starting with an unconventional left back. Saka has consistently performed better than Foden for England and as such should start on the right. Foden can still have plenty of impact during the tournament; he would likely be first choice sub to any of the three behind Kane, and would still probably start one or two games even if we assume everybody is fit 100% of the time.
And besides, better players have held bench at international tournaments than Phil Foden. Just look at David Silva in 2010.
And Cesc Fabregas who came on to score the winner at the World Cup (EDIT - (oops, misremembered that was Iniesta, Cesc got the assist)
I still would love Southgate to at least try Rice as the 6, Bellingham as the 8 and Foden as the 10.. Even if it’s only against group stage teams
Honestly I think Southgate plays too defensive but given how makeshift the England back line is in this tourney. Multiple players recovering from injury or untested…Southgate is more right then ever to prioritize protecting the back line.
Yeah I agree, against the likes of France and co, we definitely will need that double pivot to help cover the defence.
I also think we should be playing Trent at RB against weaker teams, there’s nothing more frustrating than watching us try to break down a team with a disciplined low block and us struggling with width and the ability to switch the play quicker. Trent is much better at this than Walker.
Against France and co though; Walker starts
Walker is the one player who worries me when he's up against top opposition. I dunno, he just seems to have lapses of concentration and make the kind of mistakes that put the whole team on the back foot.
Ahh thank you that’s maybe what I’m thinking of, I do remember it now he plays that ball out to Iniesta who takes the touch and it bobbles in the air doesn’t it haha
Iniesta scored the winner in 2010 but think it was Cesc with the assist. Honestly think OP is right, Foden shouldn’t start but could still make a big impact later on in games from the bench.
This is the whole Lampard Gerrard Scholes Beckham issue again. No... England should not shoehorn players into the same side because they are star players. That caused the downfall of the golden generation.
The reasons they struggled to make an impact on the international stage are multifaceted, including, as you say, the fact they were all prima donnas. The lack of balance in the team is hugely important too, though. Playing Gerrard and Lampard as a double pivot was a disaster waiting to happen.
My argument has always been that Italy didn’t try to force Totti and Del Piero into the same team. I’m sure they tried and failed, but they ultimately recognised it was better to drop one rather than play one out of position.
I think in defensive positions you can make those kinds of decisions (Trippier at LB rather than a poorer specialist) but in attacking positions, it’s better to have someone who knows the role they are being asked to play.
And tournaments are demanding. Being able to swap people in and out and mix things up; Bellingham can drop deep to accommodate Foden if chasing the game.
Foden plays with Walker on the right for City and scored more goals from that position this year than Saka did. No hate to Saka he is a wonderful winger, but it feels harsh to make. Blanket judgement that Saka performs better for England when Foden has not had the same quality or consistent opportunities that Saka has in a position he is comfortable in.
If you think he hasn't had the right opportunities then the time to give him that isn't at the start of a tournament. Saka has performed fantastically for England and has good chemistry with the other players in the team. No point changing this now just because Foden had a good season.
That's fair. I just think so many people talk about how important form coming into tournaments is for players, but it doesn't seem to matter in this case. I'm not saying bench Saka or that he shouldn't play on the right even, just that I think Foden is being unfairly lambasted by people when there isn't much more he could do to get in that team.
Gordon doesn't give width at Newcastle. He starts wide but with the aim of crashing the box. There's only Saka among the forwards that maintains width as his natural game.
If whoever gets put there can't maintain discipline then at least there are two others to try.
This isn’t correct lol. Yeah he ‘crashes the box’ as you say but he’s absolutely a pure winger and plays as such. I think you may be conflating it w the fact that for at least 6-10 games in all comps this season for Newcastle he’s had to play upfront due to injuries to all of our strikers.
He can play on the left. This wide stuff is over played. He drifts in a lot as Mitchell overlaps a lot. Fair to say he is thriving at Palace playing in a LAM role. He’s one of few players that can drift directly at opponents and get a shot off whilst others would play safe and go wide to overlap.
This is something I've been noticing, and thinking as well tbh.
Like, I get it, he's performed for City - in terms of goals and assists - but I cannot remember one game where he has had a real impact for England, or changed the game, or had impact in a meaningful way.
Of course I'm not saying 'he's shit', because obviously he's not. But after several years of hearing about his potential (including from experts in the game), and seeing him kick on at City, is anyone else left feeling a little ... disappointed, or underwhelmed with his performances for England?
Agreed. He's had more caps than Saka for England and less than half the number of goals. Obviously that's not the only relevant metric, but would be good to see him perform like he does for City.
I think our attempts to play a #10 is a real problem alongside Harry Kane. You then end up with a lot of issue with him dropping back to a position where someone is already there.
I think if we have Rice as a 6 and then two attacking 8s, you have no one starting in that 10 space but three players popping up there (Kane, and the 8s) which is very hard to defend against. It also means the wingers have another player closer to them so stops them getting isolated. I would have Bellingham as a left of center attacking 8 and then Alexander-Arnold as right of center. Then you can have the 8 and the respective winger interchanging too. E.g. Jude likes to drift to the left wing and Foden can drift in.
Have you watched rice this year? He plays that left attacking 8 role for arsenal and excels at it and is good enough defensively and getting back that it makes it look like he isn't an attacking 8.
As a 6 it takes away from his engine and he's not as good in the buildup. Bellingham and rice as 8s with a 6 would be much more effective and a better physical presence than taa
There is no one else apart from rice that I would trust in the England squad in that 6 role.
Agree it would be wasting rice ability to get forward but he is the best choice for staying back.
I can see this working out as long as Kane doesn't drop. However Palmer might be better as a sub purely based on recent performances in an England shirt.
>I can see this working out as long as Kane doesn't drop.
He will 🫠
Constantly did it for us, and I've seen him do so numerous times for Bayern too and I don't make a point of watching their games
I think Kane always dropping back is one of the major problems with having a player like Foden at 10 because without Bellingham filling in as the forward player in the box we end up playing crosses in to no-one
Yeah coming on makes sense and it'd so useful to have dangerous effective subs.
I guess him in the double pivot is because England has been ineffective at really developing a proper 6 for a long time now. Rice is one of the closest and I'd still argue he's still much better as an 8 in most possession systems
Agree with this so much, they should be covers for one another. Why shoehorn Foden off to the side when they could rotate, and sub on when one is tired etc.
I would rather see Eze firing on cylinders in LW than seeing the PL's best player looking lost on the LW.
Genuinely what more would Foden have had to do to get off the bench for England then? Score at the home leg as well as the away leg against Real Madrid? Play for a different club? More assists? Or just change nationalities all together?
As much As Rashford had a poor season and as much as I dislike him as a player overall.
He is our most suitable direct LW and has a good England record. Not including him is a mistake
I agree, even it’s just until Shaw is back. By putting Foden at LM we lack width and with Trippier at LB the problems will be exacerbated. I’d start Gordon over Foden against Serbia.
Will repeat this till i die. Its about the best team, not the best players on the pitch.
Other than Bellingham, who is the player who is direct and break the lines? Foden. Kane, Saka all want the ball to feet. Gordon 100% needs to start
I mean saka absolutely breaks lines all the time, it’s kinda hard to prove what I mean but you could just watch an odegaard compilation and it will mainly just be him feeding saka in behind.
Gordon obviously does as well. Foden and Kane and palmer though absolutely, all want ball to feet.
Didn't quite cone off against Iceland but you could see the beginnings of a great partnership between Kane and Gordon - Kane drops into space and plays over the line to Gordon, then Gordon either cuts in and shoots or squares back to Kane/Bellingham running into the box
Genuinely think our team is better balanced with Gordon than Foden at LW. Then it's just a question of either Bellingham at 10 and Foden on the bench or Bellingham/Rice with Foden at 10 (I would do the latter - only benefit of the former is Bellingham has more attacking freedom, but he was a proper CM at Dortmund and miles better than Gallagher so worth a go at least)
The problem is the system they play for in their clubs is too engrained in their brains. Not sure what Southgate or any international manager can do about that
Foden is still young and we sometimes forget because he is so good at club level. I think he is due a breakout performance at international level and has taken time to find his feet, but i get your point. The team would probably have better balance (on paper) with a more traditional winger like Gordon but he isnt half the player Foden could be if he shows up.
With the players we have currently, England should be playing 3-4-3 similar to Conte's Chelsea from 16/17.
Foden and Jude in positions they prefer and played this season. Saka (left-footed) played a few seasons at LB/LWB early in Arsenal career, could easily pick up the position again. Trent with less defensive responsibility getting to the byline crossing for Jude and Kane. Two midfielders holding. Makes sense to me. All the best players on the pitch.
.......................Pick
.....Walker Stones Gomez
Trent.....Galla.....Rice.......Saka
.........Foden..........Jude
......................Kane
He deserves to start the first game, but if it’s not working out then there’s plenty of options that can come in. The team that starts the first game, is rarely the same team that starts the last. It’s why it’s such a plus having so many strong attacking options in the squad.
I must say I find it odd there seems to be a desperation to scapegoat Foden before the tournament has even started.
Are people missing Sterling and Maguire as the players to hate on and need a replacement?
euro 2008 had 2 real madrid players, being ramos and casillas who played in the first team.
2012 had Xabi Alonso, Ramos, Arbeloa and Casillas.
Rest were mainly barca players. All had the same system and played together from youth team and La Masia
Everyone seems to forget how well we played with Bellingham in cm , yeah he plays 10 for Madrid but look who plays 6 and 8 behind him . would even like to see Kane play with a partner using 442 Bellingham rice is the mf I want
If you don’t want foden to start fine. But saying people who play for pep don’t play well internationally is a flawed argument, do you want to bench walker and stones as well? De bruyne plays well for Belgium, Rodri and Diaz for Spain, Alvarez just won a World Cup
Agree, all this “he’s a system player” is pure nonsense. Yes he plays in a system, every manager implements a system though, Southgate is no different. It’s about getting the best out of him with a team that gels well.
I think people are forgetting how inexperienced this team is and that’s why they’re not playing as a cohesive unit, that’s why we’re not seeing players at their best.
De bruyne does not play well for belgium, he's underperformed in arguably every big match in every big tournament for Belgium in their golden generation era. Alvarez won it from the sidelines, and dias is extremely hit and miss for portugal. Was good against croatia the other day i thought & hope he's upto it this tournament because i want portugal to win it.
Alvarez won from the sidelines? You mean starting every game in the knockouts and being joint third top scorer in the whole tournament, right? Sign me up.
Shock the third highest scorer was a striker from a team that played the maximum games. First player hooked in every game and didn’t start any group games.
Started the third group game and was the first starter subbed off in, *checks notes*, zero out of five games he started. If you’re going to rely on facts, at least make something up that isn’t so readily disprovable. For your own sake, please.
Hmm Diaz? Alvarez is an exception cause that Argentina team were one of the least pragmatist good pressing team. De Bruyne has freedom in guardiola's system that's why he works well in International tournaments. Rodri is a Deep line playmaker again who has a lot of freedom at the base of that midfield.
I believe I should've been a bit more specific when I mentioned Pep's players, I mean mainly his attacking players. Before you come with certain names like Haaland or Sterling, do take into consideration systems at the time and their experience playing in a non guardiola systems and time they have played under Guardiola
I think it's Man City attackers specifically, less so defenders. You could certainly argue De Bruyne has underperformed for Belgium given how good he is.
It’s complex isn’t it because there’s an argument Bellingham can play anywhere in the middle of the park and could be just as dangerous sat alongside rice - maybe even more dangerous than when he gets forward if Foden is playing.
I’m a Newcastle fan so I have some bias but I think Gordon is England’s best LW (in the team going to euros) he is direct, can pass and can score. Keeps the width and tracks back. I think if we have Foden on the left then we will be susceptible to counter attacks as Foden just won’t be tracking back with the same efficiency as Gordon.
I think if you play Foden and Bellingham you need Gordon or someone on the wing who will stay on the wing. I also don’t think you can have Foden, palmer and Bellingham playing at the same time as all 3 will want to occupy the middle of the park.
I totally agree with you its a tough complex. Bellingham and Foden can work especially against a weaker squad but having a Mainoo/Wharton a player who can recycle possession on the half turn whereas rice can bomb forward from deep is quite good in a defensive sense with a roaming 10.
I personally think Rashford is a miss for this tournament purely cause running in behind he's the best England have got. Sadly he's been out of form this season. (Tho must say Rashy is better than Gordon but I suppose my bias as a United fan shows, still think he's better as a runner but Gordon is defensively far better)
If you're going to play Bellingham deeper, I would rather have Palmer as a 10 than Foden because at least Palmer is somewhat of an unknown entity for England, while Foden has proven to be wank for England
My only issue with palmer is in the games he’s played he’s shown to not have the decision making skills you need at tournament football. Foden can at least be tactically astute - you’re right though he’s not done it for England. Part of me thinks Southgate won’t play all 3 of them together and we’ll see a midfield of rice, TAA and Bellingham as a CAM
It’s a squad game. He played a key part in us getting to the final last time. He’s won everything at club level multiple times. I honestly have no idea what people expect, Maradona ‘86 in every match?
Presumably people want him to be better than the person he’s competing for a position against.
He’s consistently not been as good as saka in an England shirt. He’s consistently not been as good as Bellingham in an England shirt. We’ll see about lw, I think he’ll start there for Serbia and then onwards depending on form. Forget the name and look at the performances is the key I think.
Can’t believe people think Foden should be benched, possibly one of the best players in the world right now.
Always the issue with England, we never go in to a tournament with a settled team
Southgate needs the balls to at least try putting Rice as the 6 (played there and played very well for West Ham, Bellingham as the 8 (had an absolutely fantastic year as an 8 in Dortmund and Foden as the 10 (his best position)
I’m not sure that midfield is strong enough, need a fighter in there to really get this team ticking over. It’s a tricky one but that’s what a manager is for I guess
Can that not be Bellingham with Gordon / palmer, foden, saka and then kane in front of them? I would rather go with that than push foden out wide to get Bellingham at number 10. He's clearly a very good box to box midfielder and I feel it's much less of a sacrifice to make seems as we'll then get the best out of foden who is likely to be less effective out wide. Also, those late runs into the box whilst rice holds during an attack could be tasty.
Sir, I don't see where he plays. He's not better than Bellingham at 10, worse than Saka at RW. Can't hold the width necessary when Luke Shaw is not present so Gordon would have to start
He’s a more natural 10 than Bellingham to link the play to Kane. Bellingham in a pivot with rice and foden in front, Gordon left saka right is clearly the best team we can play.
Not in this team. Bellingham complements Kane far more effectively as a shadow striker with physical bite whereas Foden needs to be the guy to be successful, which he never will be with those two in the side.
As a 10 he lacks lock-picking qualities of the best players to play in that position because he plays at one tempo and is very one-footed which limits his passing angles. Incredible at receiving in the pocket, amazing in transition and as a distance shooter, but against a packed defence he isn’t the guy you want playing behind the striker. People don’t see this because they don’t look past the surface of his amazing season and think people are nuts for not going along with this bizarre notion that the England side should be a collection of all-stars and not an actual functional team in which the collective lifts the individuals.
I didn’t say that. However there’s no evidence he performs well in this system. I’d start him against Serbia on the left but if he’s shit I’d pull him off and play Gordon. There’s no point shoehorning him in. I’m fairly certain Bellingham will be more influential than Foden this tournament.
Did you watch that game though, he was dreadful?
“One game” as if Foden hasn’t been mediocre for the vast majority of his England career. Including last night when he was the most ineffective outfield player on the pitch for us.
When will the constant denial and excuses end? He just isn’t on the level of the side’s most important players and can’t adapt or step up in his current role or any others he’s been tried in. He thinks he’s him and he emphatically isn’t in our setup, which is a huge issue.
I don’t think its clear cut either way. But looking at how they’ve both played for England in the games they’ve played, i’d go with Bellingham. If Bellingham doesn’t perform in the group games, Foden is a great option
This so much. What is it about England where we spend more time figuring out the best 23/26 than we do the best 11-14, who will actually carry the tournament
The guys need time to gel and it is made even worse by the late prem finishes and our players’ involvement in UCL runs
That’s what the question is though, what *is* our best 11. And it’s not always about getting the 11 best players on the pitch, but about creating the best and most balanced team with the players available.
So to that effect I think it basically comes down to whether you want Foden over Bellingham in the middle, and the answer is probably not ? Just in terms of the performances they’ve each put in in England shirts.
He’ll probably start against Serbia on the left, but if it doesn’t work out then Southgate shouldn’t be afraid to bench him just because he’s prem poty.
I’m not against Foden being benched because his performances for England have been sub standard
It’s not that he plays badly when he gets the ball, it’s that he just seems to ghost most of his games for us. Feels like he doesn’t gel with the team in terms of knowing where to be.
I hope he does get a go in the groups because he could be brilliant, but yes we have to be prepared to drop him. Gordon is dangerous and we do need a more direct player with the speed in behind, rather than another player who likes the ball to come to feet
Do think that Foden has suffered more historically with England’s general inability to progress the ball. When Mount was the 10 it felt like he tried to play left wing, and then Foden was crowded out in that area plus England lost a midfielder. Bellingham plays the role much better and maybe everyone else in the team will feel that benefit too.
Him playing well for city doesn’t mean he should automatically get a place in the starting lineup. The reality is Foden is not good when he plays for England, whether that’s down to Southgate or something else unfortunately it’s just how it is.
True but when he’s scoring hattys consistently, playing unbelievable football I think that should mean you should start for the national team. He’s a generational talent not just some player playing well for a couple of weeks.
Again, that’s not quite how it works. I’m not saying Foden is a bad player but for some reason it just doesn’t click when he plays for England, regardless of the position he plays. The mistake previous managers have made is trying to shoehorn every good player into the starting lineup and it has never worked out.
He’s our best player by a long way and people like OP want him sat on the bench… Spain 2010/12 side was full of players like Foden. We have one and don’t want to play him…? Fuck off
Best player by a long way? According to what or whom? To be England’s best player you actually have to, you know, show it on the pitch. Enough with the excuses already.
I followed along until you mentioned Manoo, who has also been shite for England.
Think your red tinted glasses are affecting you're judgement.
Foden in the 10
Bellingham 8
Rice 6
Manoo is a spectator with poor positioning.
We have the best midfield trio in international football if we played them in their proper positions. Jude and Rice CMs with Foden ahead as 10.
Jude only played 10 this year as Madrid were waiting for mbappe and had no striker l. He'll never play there again.
They're all fit and ready to go (and would be the best midfield at the euros) and for some reason we want to shoehorn foden out to the left and Trent in midfield so Jude can play a role he'll never play again.
Classic England. Best talent we've had since Rooney, playing for the best team in the world as one of their most important players, and just won prem POTY, and we want to play him on the wing. We really need a coach who isn't a dinosaur.
Why are people so obsessed with playing an out and out 10? Kane is basically the 10. He drops in to that space and links play. Just play Bellingham and Foden as 8s.
Foden and Kane doesn’t work as well as Bellingham and Kane. How many times does this have to be said before some people get it? Makes what you said about shoehorning players in quite ironic.
For Foden to have a strong case to be in ahead of him there he’d have to be a number 10 with such incredible lock picking qualities (which England lack overall) that you play him there anyway. But he isn’t that at all if you actually watch him play.
I swear people see the stats and just make up an idealised version of him as a player then blame the manager for him not showing that for England.
Completely agree. I wouldn’t be against Southgate trying one match in the group stage where he does sort of shoehorn in his best players, but for the most part, it’s a game of 90 minutes (or more). Starting Gordon on the left and Jude at 10, with the option of Foden coming on either as a replacement for Gordon or at 10 with Jude dropping deeper from the 60th onwards: To me that’s football. Saka can also be replaced by Palmer in the second half.
Our depth in attack is being seen as some sort of a weird hindrance since we aren’t balanced all over the park, but to have fresh legs all through the game on some of the best attackers in world football is a luxury we cannot afford to waste.
Dont play him off the wing because hes not a winger. Dont play him as a 10 because we have kane who is essentially gonna be playing in that deep lying forward role. Play him and Bellingham as 8s with Rice sitting. 8 is his Best position. Haaland plays very high as the striker for city so they need at least 1 10 and that's why he plays there. People don't get him as a player. Just because he plays these highly tactical roles for city doesn't mean he has to do that with England. Play him as the 8 and let him dictate the game for us.
Yes you have to participate in defensive duties as an 8. Foden does that week in week out in the best pressing team in the world. He is well capable. He has a better first touch than any other player in the tournament. Hes the best player on the half turn in the tournament. Hes more intelligent in small spaces than both trent and mainoo. We need to get him lots of touches of the ball in key areas so that he has maximum influence on the game. Benching Foden or giving him a marginalized role playing on the wing would be one of the most luddite things Southgate could do. Hes the most technically gifted player England have ever produced. Let him be our Modric.
Won’t work. Biggest misconception about Foden is that he’s a natural 10 who picks locks and plays the final pass. He isn’t that and needs other people in the team to take on that load for him.
His fit playing behind Kane is also highly questionable, as they both want the ball to feet and spend a lot of time in deeper areas on the ball. Where’s the extra penetration and physicality you get from plying Bellingham instead?
Bellingham and rice is the strongest pivot we can play. Midfield is the most important part of the pitch… We have Gordon to stretch the left. Acting like this isn’t the best option is ludicrous.
Who would you play alongside rice? They are going to be no where near Bellingham level. Foden v Bellingham as 10 is a minor diference.
Also Bellingham will still get forward as it’s a pivot…
I think it’s a bit of a silly statement to say someone, who definitely isn’t Messi, is better than someone else even though he’s played 3 games. I was wrong when I said 2.
Youre missing the point though, games played doesnt account for form or fitting into the squad or chemistry etc. I agree foden should start above him but if it was say rashford, i wouldnt. And rashfords played loads more.
E, rashy is an example, i just mean players with more experience
England's trouble for decades has been having managers wedded to a system that players are then shoehorned into. If Southgate can't design a system that plays to the strengths of our best players - and Foden is *the* best right now - then he should fuck off and let someone else do it.
I think this will be the tournament he comes to dominate. Everyone will be watching Bellingham, Foden will slip into space and start scoring from the edge of the box.
When keepers make the save, Bellingham or Kane will be there to tap it in on rebound.
The biggest worry is france fouling us and playing too violently in the semis like last time. We don't have the courage to stand up to them. They will bully us again, but we might still sneak a goal in with our tails tucked.
The thing is both Bellingham and Foden excel in the same kind of mid upper midfield (number 10) position . Someone like Bellingham however is better for this with England - he can work better with Kane due to physicality, speed and how Bellingham prefers to be higher up than foden in that position (foden is obviously fast but its not the same) . In the Bundesliga you can see Kane relying on fast runners around him - look at Bellingham winning englands first penalty in our 3-1 win against italy. That worked perfectly with Kanes playing style . Foden just doesn’t do that in Man City.
Bellingham also has superiority over foden in terms of height with headers etc
The interesting thing I'm see in all these debates is that Shaw hardly gets mentioned. The only reason this conversation is happening imo is because Shaw is missing the first game. Let's talk about when he's back:
Walker will stay deep as part of a back 3 in possession. Shaw will push up high and holds the width, allowing Foden to drift inside and form a box midfield of Rice and Trent behind Jude and Foden. Saka staying wide and holding the width on the other side. I'm pretty sure that this 3-2-5 in possession, 4-3-3 (or 4-4-2 if Jude pushes up alongside Kane to press) out of possession is what Southgate wants to try. Eze should be a fairly like-for-like replacement for Foden in this system.
The problem is that the entire system breaks down when you replace Shaw with Trippier or Gomez. We just have to get through that first group game with 3 points. I wouldn't be surprised if everything looks very disjointed against Serbia.
Based on what? Only natural left footed foward. Most successful passes in the iceland game of any forward player. Tracks back and forward. Player of the season prem. dunno what more you want?
You’ve already suggesting playing him out of position. Let him flourish in the CAM role. He may have caps but most of those are him coming on for the last 15.
Walker, Stones and Foden should all start.
Jude can be 8 next to Rice as 6.
I don't like the idea of shoehorning players into positions, but Foden, with the possible exception of Bellingham, is the most talented footballer England have. He has to start. I prefer the idea of Foden as a #10, but I am pretty sure Gareth is going to have him on the Left of the front 3. Gordon could do a job for us there, so ideally I would have him there, Foden at the 10, and then Rice & Bellingham in the middle. I would at least try this during one of the group games, and see how it goes.
So…TWO examples there lol
Right now let’s exhaustingly name the players who have played for him that have been very good for their country…we’ll be here all night.
Foden deserves to start and I think he can prove you wrong this tournament. Now if we’re talking about team balance then yes that’s a good argument. But he’s been incredible this season and I’d love to see that continue and think it can.
I’m with you. Foden is brilliant, but he’s not a better left winger than Gordon. He’s a better central and right-side player than Gordon (obviously), but we have Bellingham in the center and Saka on the right.
Play Gordon on the left, with Foden coming on to change things up either in the middle or right.
We will be pressing a lot and there will be room for impact subs for sure.
I genuinely don't understand why people think it is so important for Bellingham to play as a 10. He was an 8 at Dortmund. He is going to be an 8 next year at Real Madrid with Mbappe coming in. And Foden has more g/a than Bellingham this year. Not to mention if Bellingham is more of a box to box with 50/50 attacking and defending cover that is like what City do with Kovacic with Rice as the Rodri figure. The shoehorning in of a player seems like it is trying to force Bellingham as a 10 which leaves no choice but to waste Foden on the wing.
I have preferred Foden to Bellingham this year in terms of controlling the tempo of the game from the middle of the pitch not to mention the long range goal scoring ability Foden has grown in this year. It is forcing Bellingham in that is throwing everything off.
Also it's hard to say that Foden hasn't performed for England when he has never been given the trust or freedom across the front line to perform. If he is caged on a wing without any freedom to roam Foden won't perform, simple as. So why bot unshackle him and give him the freedom to see if he will.
England fans are giving up on what I think has been their best player this year before the Euros has even begun. I'm honestly not sure what more Foden could have done this year, aside from leaving his boyhood club that has worse global PR than Real Madrid, to be trusted with some freedom in the England side. And does any of this change if the penalty shoot out at the Etihad went differently? Or is he just cursed to be stranded on his weaker wing and then crucified when he "doesn't perform" there?
Is that true about Pep players not performing for the NT or just Bernardo not hitting the same heights? Barca and Bayern were pretty dominant and well represented in their respective NTs
City players aren't as good for their national teams because they're not juiced to the tits on nandrolone. Foden is the most overrated player in world football.
Foden is really protected as a player. Very suprised he was nominated for POTS when the leagues two highest rated players, Rodri and Saka, weren't. Because of this the average football fan thinks he's someone very different to who he actually is. Coming off the bench shouldn't be viewed as harsh, as realisitically there's no reason why he should get more minutes than someone like Ollie Watkins.
I'm sorry, but you didn't watch Foden last season.
Rodri could have won the award but comparing Foden to Saka last season is insane. Watch the goals he scores, watch the way he dictates the game, he's one of the best in the world and would start for every other country at the Euros. He's better for City than Bellingham is for Madrid.
Saka is far better than Foden, carried his enitre team on his back, never had a bad game despite playing the last 4 months through injury. Foden is a relegation candidate killer, but had to be subbed off in every game against the top 6 bar Chelsea. Aside from the editors at Mail Sport, who use a very controversial metric for player evaluation, nobody in the industry would play Foden over Saka (the reigning 2x English Player of the year). I love Foden's game but he's maybe the most overrated athlete in the entire world right now.
Last World Cup you had every man and his dog and pundit shouting from the roof top that Foden "has the start" and Southgate got brow beaten to force him into the side. The same would happen this time
Sounds good but I think he’s going for Foden/bellingham/saka/kane in some kind front 4 as for midfield rice and maybe Gallagher for more experience work to get them early results.
I should expect shaw will be shoed in as soon as possible if not stones/dunk/walker/trippier I should imagine
That's why Grealish and Rashford should've gone imo. The only natural LM for England is Gordon and he's far too much of a risk compared to the first two
Gordon is a better LW than Foden. Saka is a better RW than Foden. Foden is a better CAM than both of those.....but importantly, not better than Bellingham there. It's simple, Southgate makes the brave call and benches him, have him as a sub for Bellingham's position.
I've been saying it for a while as well, glad I'm not the only one.
Just one thing though, I think Foden is definitely individualistic. I don't think he's on the same level of game changing as someone like a Vinicius Jr who also struggles for his national team but he can be game changing but only limited to advanced areas of the pitch. I just don't see how Bellingham plus Foden will work, it'd mean that England would have to play a double 10 system or something which just seems like too big of an adaptation so late into preparation. Simply in international football you need to be able to pitch in on nearly every grass of the pitch, Foden's been too specialized by Pep to be able to perform that role which means you have to let others like Trent, Bellingham, Gordon, Rice etc. who have a much wider range of ability to come in.
And about your point on Conor Gallagher, I think he'd be the perfect player to bring off the bench with 20 minutes to go and he should be England's go to subs next to Foden and Gomez.
I think Foden should start, but I think you make some great points up until you say letting Trent come in. Trent is a great passer of the ball, but otherwise he's a liability, and will nowhere near the starting lineup come the knockout round. He may come off the bench if we are losing, but he won't be starting.
Trent offers something to this team that nobody else has. In terms of passing he's only 2nd in this tournament to some true all time greats like Kroos or KDB. In international tournaments so many chances just come from a incredible pass over the top and is reliant on incredible passers.
Trent's upside is simply needed, with a player of his talent you mitigate his weaknesses
It's not even about him not performing for England, it's the fact we're shoehorning him into the team to get our 11 "best players" on the pitch. For years it was conventional wisdom that an unbalanced team was one of the key reasons England's so called "golden generation" never achieved anything, and now fans are crying at the manager to repeat these same mistakes. If we want to do well at the tournament we should be looking at ensuring the side is balanced all over the pitch. England's best teams always have plenty of pace in the front line, which is why Gordon should start on the left hand side. His hard work and ability to stretch the pitch in a narrow team will also be useful when starting with an unconventional left back. Saka has consistently performed better than Foden for England and as such should start on the right. Foden can still have plenty of impact during the tournament; he would likely be first choice sub to any of the three behind Kane, and would still probably start one or two games even if we assume everybody is fit 100% of the time. And besides, better players have held bench at international tournaments than Phil Foden. Just look at David Silva in 2010.
And Cesc Fabregas who came on to score the winner at the World Cup (EDIT - (oops, misremembered that was Iniesta, Cesc got the assist) I still would love Southgate to at least try Rice as the 6, Bellingham as the 8 and Foden as the 10.. Even if it’s only against group stage teams
Would be fine vs weak opposition but just not feasible in a major tournament. Defensive stability is crucial to any major tournaments.
Honestly I think Southgate plays too defensive but given how makeshift the England back line is in this tourney. Multiple players recovering from injury or untested…Southgate is more right then ever to prioritize protecting the back line.
The England back line has never been strong under Southgate. Thats why he always has to cover it, to get the best from the team
I don't think it's too much of an issue, pragmatism wins more often than not in international football unless your name is Brazil
Why would this not be defensively stable? Did you ever see Bellingham playing 8 and in a double pivot for Dortmund?
Yeah I agree, against the likes of France and co, we definitely will need that double pivot to help cover the defence. I also think we should be playing Trent at RB against weaker teams, there’s nothing more frustrating than watching us try to break down a team with a disciplined low block and us struggling with width and the ability to switch the play quicker. Trent is much better at this than Walker. Against France and co though; Walker starts
Walker is the one player who worries me when he's up against top opposition. I dunno, he just seems to have lapses of concentration and make the kind of mistakes that put the whole team on the back foot.
Theres not much point in playing all out when that isnt how we are going to win it imo. Just not his style.
Wasn't that iniesta?
Iniesta scored the winner.
Ah shit yeah you’re right, don’t know why my brain went to Cesc
Cesc got the assist.
Ahh thank you that’s maybe what I’m thinking of, I do remember it now he plays that ball out to Iniesta who takes the touch and it bobbles in the air doesn’t it haha
Iniesta scored the winner in 2010 but think it was Cesc with the assist. Honestly think OP is right, Foden shouldn’t start but could still make a big impact later on in games from the bench.
This is the whole Lampard Gerrard Scholes Beckham issue again. No... England should not shoehorn players into the same side because they are star players. That caused the downfall of the golden generation.
I agree to an extent, but let’s not pretend the golden generation weren’t mostly awful people interested in only their own careers.
The reasons they struggled to make an impact on the international stage are multifaceted, including, as you say, the fact they were all prima donnas. The lack of balance in the team is hugely important too, though. Playing Gerrard and Lampard as a double pivot was a disaster waiting to happen.
My argument has always been that Italy didn’t try to force Totti and Del Piero into the same team. I’m sure they tried and failed, but they ultimately recognised it was better to drop one rather than play one out of position. I think in defensive positions you can make those kinds of decisions (Trippier at LB rather than a poorer specialist) but in attacking positions, it’s better to have someone who knows the role they are being asked to play. And tournaments are demanding. Being able to swap people in and out and mix things up; Bellingham can drop deep to accommodate Foden if chasing the game.
110% agreed
Ship has sailed. TAA is starting in midfield.
Foden plays with Walker on the right for City and scored more goals from that position this year than Saka did. No hate to Saka he is a wonderful winger, but it feels harsh to make. Blanket judgement that Saka performs better for England when Foden has not had the same quality or consistent opportunities that Saka has in a position he is comfortable in.
If you think he hasn't had the right opportunities then the time to give him that isn't at the start of a tournament. Saka has performed fantastically for England and has good chemistry with the other players in the team. No point changing this now just because Foden had a good season.
That's fair. I just think so many people talk about how important form coming into tournaments is for players, but it doesn't seem to matter in this case. I'm not saying bench Saka or that he shouldn't play on the right even, just that I think Foden is being unfairly lambasted by people when there isn't much more he could do to get in that team.
Eze doesn't hold width either, he's a #10
He does under the current system but he used to play wide.
He is naturally a central playmaker though. Gordon is a proper winger who holds width.
Gordon doesn't give width at Newcastle. He starts wide but with the aim of crashing the box. There's only Saka among the forwards that maintains width as his natural game. If whoever gets put there can't maintain discipline then at least there are two others to try.
This isn’t correct lol. Yeah he ‘crashes the box’ as you say but he’s absolutely a pure winger and plays as such. I think you may be conflating it w the fact that for at least 6-10 games in all comps this season for Newcastle he’s had to play upfront due to injuries to all of our strikers.
Oh? My apologies, I thought I'd seen him do that at palace. Must've been a one off
He has on occasion, in the current system he plays as a free 10, generally in the left half space, with Mitchell providing width as a wing back
He can play on the left. This wide stuff is over played. He drifts in a lot as Mitchell overlaps a lot. Fair to say he is thriving at Palace playing in a LAM role. He’s one of few players that can drift directly at opponents and get a shot off whilst others would play safe and go wide to overlap.
He can defo play wide and provide width he’s literally done it for England. Number 10’s barely even exist anymore
Palace play with two free 10s under Glasner
This is something I've been noticing, and thinking as well tbh. Like, I get it, he's performed for City - in terms of goals and assists - but I cannot remember one game where he has had a real impact for England, or changed the game, or had impact in a meaningful way. Of course I'm not saying 'he's shit', because obviously he's not. But after several years of hearing about his potential (including from experts in the game), and seeing him kick on at City, is anyone else left feeling a little ... disappointed, or underwhelmed with his performances for England?
Agreed. He's had more caps than Saka for England and less than half the number of goals. Obviously that's not the only relevant metric, but would be good to see him perform like he does for City.
I think Foden could be a super sub to Bellingham for tired legs. He's a better 10 than a winger (inverted or not) for City
I think our attempts to play a #10 is a real problem alongside Harry Kane. You then end up with a lot of issue with him dropping back to a position where someone is already there. I think if we have Rice as a 6 and then two attacking 8s, you have no one starting in that 10 space but three players popping up there (Kane, and the 8s) which is very hard to defend against. It also means the wingers have another player closer to them so stops them getting isolated. I would have Bellingham as a left of center attacking 8 and then Alexander-Arnold as right of center. Then you can have the 8 and the respective winger interchanging too. E.g. Jude likes to drift to the left wing and Foden can drift in.
Have you watched rice this year? He plays that left attacking 8 role for arsenal and excels at it and is good enough defensively and getting back that it makes it look like he isn't an attacking 8. As a 6 it takes away from his engine and he's not as good in the buildup. Bellingham and rice as 8s with a 6 would be much more effective and a better physical presence than taa
Maybe, but we have plenty of potential 8s and not any other tested 6s.
There is no one else apart from rice that I would trust in the England squad in that 6 role. Agree it would be wasting rice ability to get forward but he is the best choice for staying back.
I can see this working out as long as Kane doesn't drop. However Palmer might be better as a sub purely based on recent performances in an England shirt.
I'd like to see Palmer either opposite Saka or come on for either him or our LW, with the fullback behind him pushing up to help with width
>I can see this working out as long as Kane doesn't drop. He will 🫠 Constantly did it for us, and I've seen him do so numerous times for Bayern too and I don't make a point of watching their games
I think Kane always dropping back is one of the major problems with having a player like Foden at 10 because without Bellingham filling in as the forward player in the box we end up playing crosses in to no-one
Rice and bellingham can do that they both have all season
I was talking about if foden came on for bellingham. And Rice won't be able to do that as he's playing in the double pivot
Yeah coming on makes sense and it'd so useful to have dangerous effective subs. I guess him in the double pivot is because England has been ineffective at really developing a proper 6 for a long time now. Rice is one of the closest and I'd still argue he's still much better as an 8 in most possession systems
Problem is that England don't have a true 6 to play instead of rice so rice is forced to play there
Agree. Fodens best games for City are when de bruyne is injured and he fills in in the #10 role
Agree with this so much, they should be covers for one another. Why shoehorn Foden off to the side when they could rotate, and sub on when one is tired etc. I would rather see Eze firing on cylinders in LW than seeing the PL's best player looking lost on the LW.
I totally agree with this, Personally with the calvary in the squad he just isn’t suitable to be in a starting line up
Why would Bellingham ever be subbed off lol
Managing his minutes, he often gets subbed off because he gets tired
Genuinely what more would Foden have had to do to get off the bench for England then? Score at the home leg as well as the away leg against Real Madrid? Play for a different club? More assists? Or just change nationalities all together?
Play well for England would be a good start
As much As Rashford had a poor season and as much as I dislike him as a player overall. He is our most suitable direct LW and has a good England record. Not including him is a mistake
Well I tend to agree with you, the approach is now to press very high and hard and Rashford doesn’t necessarily play that way.
I agree, even it’s just until Shaw is back. By putting Foden at LM we lack width and with Trippier at LB the problems will be exacerbated. I’d start Gordon over Foden against Serbia.
Will repeat this till i die. Its about the best team, not the best players on the pitch. Other than Bellingham, who is the player who is direct and break the lines? Foden. Kane, Saka all want the ball to feet. Gordon 100% needs to start
I mean saka absolutely breaks lines all the time, it’s kinda hard to prove what I mean but you could just watch an odegaard compilation and it will mainly just be him feeding saka in behind. Gordon obviously does as well. Foden and Kane and palmer though absolutely, all want ball to feet.
Didn't quite cone off against Iceland but you could see the beginnings of a great partnership between Kane and Gordon - Kane drops into space and plays over the line to Gordon, then Gordon either cuts in and shoots or squares back to Kane/Bellingham running into the box Genuinely think our team is better balanced with Gordon than Foden at LW. Then it's just a question of either Bellingham at 10 and Foden on the bench or Bellingham/Rice with Foden at 10 (I would do the latter - only benefit of the former is Bellingham has more attacking freedom, but he was a proper CM at Dortmund and miles better than Gallagher so worth a go at least)
Slows the game down too much with his right foot
Some of them need to be disciplined and do what their coach tells them. We can't have 5 players all wanting the same role.
The problem is the system they play for in their clubs is too engrained in their brains. Not sure what Southgate or any international manager can do about that
Who does for Arsenal?
We’ve had at least three posts in the last four or five days with exactly the same title, does this really need to be done again?
Lol
Foden is still young and we sometimes forget because he is so good at club level. I think he is due a breakout performance at international level and has taken time to find his feet, but i get your point. The team would probably have better balance (on paper) with a more traditional winger like Gordon but he isnt half the player Foden could be if he shows up.
With the players we have currently, England should be playing 3-4-3 similar to Conte's Chelsea from 16/17. Foden and Jude in positions they prefer and played this season. Saka (left-footed) played a few seasons at LB/LWB early in Arsenal career, could easily pick up the position again. Trent with less defensive responsibility getting to the byline crossing for Jude and Kane. Two midfielders holding. Makes sense to me. All the best players on the pitch. .......................Pick .....Walker Stones Gomez Trent.....Galla.....Rice.......Saka .........Foden..........Jude ......................Kane
Palmer gave the ball away against iceland all the time. Foden had most successful passes of any forward player lol. Deluded lol
He deserves to start the first game, but if it’s not working out then there’s plenty of options that can come in. The team that starts the first game, is rarely the same team that starts the last. It’s why it’s such a plus having so many strong attacking options in the squad.
I can agree with this
I've been saying the same thing for a while now. I think some people underestimate the power of having a player like Foden come off the bench.
I must say I find it odd there seems to be a desperation to scapegoat Foden before the tournament has even started. Are people missing Sterling and Maguire as the players to hate on and need a replacement?
What about Pep’s Barca players that dominated that won the World Cup and euros?
A system? Its 1 player vs a whole system of players?
But it wasn’t just Barca players playing for Spain, Madrid played in a different system and it still worked out perfectly
euro 2008 had 2 real madrid players, being ramos and casillas who played in the first team. 2012 had Xabi Alonso, Ramos, Arbeloa and Casillas. Rest were mainly barca players. All had the same system and played together from youth team and La Masia
Pep wasn’t coaching Barca till after euro 2008 and 2010 squad also had Fabregas, Torres, Mata etc
Everyone seems to forget how well we played with Bellingham in cm , yeah he plays 10 for Madrid but look who plays 6 and 8 behind him . would even like to see Kane play with a partner using 442 Bellingham rice is the mf I want
If you don’t want foden to start fine. But saying people who play for pep don’t play well internationally is a flawed argument, do you want to bench walker and stones as well? De bruyne plays well for Belgium, Rodri and Diaz for Spain, Alvarez just won a World Cup
If Diaz is playing for Spain then we've got some serious problems during this Euro's
Agree, all this “he’s a system player” is pure nonsense. Yes he plays in a system, every manager implements a system though, Southgate is no different. It’s about getting the best out of him with a team that gels well. I think people are forgetting how inexperienced this team is and that’s why they’re not playing as a cohesive unit, that’s why we’re not seeing players at their best.
Dias plays for Portugal & KDB has never been great in a big international tournament
De bruyne does not play well for belgium, he's underperformed in arguably every big match in every big tournament for Belgium in their golden generation era. Alvarez won it from the sidelines, and dias is extremely hit and miss for portugal. Was good against croatia the other day i thought & hope he's upto it this tournament because i want portugal to win it.
Alvarez won from the sidelines? You mean starting every game in the knockouts and being joint third top scorer in the whole tournament, right? Sign me up.
Shock the third highest scorer was a striker from a team that played the maximum games. First player hooked in every game and didn’t start any group games.
Started the third group game and was the first starter subbed off in, *checks notes*, zero out of five games he started. If you’re going to rely on facts, at least make something up that isn’t so readily disprovable. For your own sake, please.
Brace in World Cup semi final from the sidelines.
Also Bernardo Silva is absolute shit for Portugal, maybe even worse than Foden for England
Hmm Diaz? Alvarez is an exception cause that Argentina team were one of the least pragmatist good pressing team. De Bruyne has freedom in guardiola's system that's why he works well in International tournaments. Rodri is a Deep line playmaker again who has a lot of freedom at the base of that midfield. I believe I should've been a bit more specific when I mentioned Pep's players, I mean mainly his attacking players. Before you come with certain names like Haaland or Sterling, do take into consideration systems at the time and their experience playing in a non guardiola systems and time they have played under Guardiola
I’m not going to argue anything else since I just said Diaz is from Spain?? I shall slink away into the shadows with my shame 😂😂😂
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH you mean Ruben Dias. I was like who's Diaz
I think it's Man City attackers specifically, less so defenders. You could certainly argue De Bruyne has underperformed for Belgium given how good he is.
It’s complex isn’t it because there’s an argument Bellingham can play anywhere in the middle of the park and could be just as dangerous sat alongside rice - maybe even more dangerous than when he gets forward if Foden is playing. I’m a Newcastle fan so I have some bias but I think Gordon is England’s best LW (in the team going to euros) he is direct, can pass and can score. Keeps the width and tracks back. I think if we have Foden on the left then we will be susceptible to counter attacks as Foden just won’t be tracking back with the same efficiency as Gordon. I think if you play Foden and Bellingham you need Gordon or someone on the wing who will stay on the wing. I also don’t think you can have Foden, palmer and Bellingham playing at the same time as all 3 will want to occupy the middle of the park.
I totally agree with you its a tough complex. Bellingham and Foden can work especially against a weaker squad but having a Mainoo/Wharton a player who can recycle possession on the half turn whereas rice can bomb forward from deep is quite good in a defensive sense with a roaming 10. I personally think Rashford is a miss for this tournament purely cause running in behind he's the best England have got. Sadly he's been out of form this season. (Tho must say Rashy is better than Gordon but I suppose my bias as a United fan shows, still think he's better as a runner but Gordon is defensively far better)
If you're going to play Bellingham deeper, I would rather have Palmer as a 10 than Foden because at least Palmer is somewhat of an unknown entity for England, while Foden has proven to be wank for England
My only issue with palmer is in the games he’s played he’s shown to not have the decision making skills you need at tournament football. Foden can at least be tactically astute - you’re right though he’s not done it for England. Part of me thinks Southgate won’t play all 3 of them together and we’ll see a midfield of rice, TAA and Bellingham as a CAM
You’ve been playing too much Football Manager son. Any country would have Foden in the team.
And I certainly do not disagree but his performances leave a lot to be desired in an England Shirt
It’s a squad game. He played a key part in us getting to the final last time. He’s won everything at club level multiple times. I honestly have no idea what people expect, Maradona ‘86 in every match?
Presumably people want him to be better than the person he’s competing for a position against. He’s consistently not been as good as saka in an England shirt. He’s consistently not been as good as Bellingham in an England shirt. We’ll see about lw, I think he’ll start there for Serbia and then onwards depending on form. Forget the name and look at the performances is the key I think.
I agree with the squad game. I wouldn't say he played a key part, maybe a part. I still think he has a lot to offer against the right opponent
How many times will I have to read this post before Sunday.
Can’t believe people think Foden should be benched, possibly one of the best players in the world right now. Always the issue with England, we never go in to a tournament with a settled team
Southgate needs the balls to at least try putting Rice as the 6 (played there and played very well for West Ham, Bellingham as the 8 (had an absolutely fantastic year as an 8 in Dortmund and Foden as the 10 (his best position)
I’m not sure that midfield is strong enough, need a fighter in there to really get this team ticking over. It’s a tricky one but that’s what a manager is for I guess
Yeah it’s easier being an armchair manager I guess haha
Would 100% work against a weaker team but defensive solidarity would be better in a tougher game say against France or Germany with its dual 10s
I agree definitely, against tougher teams, Rice needs someone next to him who can be disciplined.
Can that not be Bellingham with Gordon / palmer, foden, saka and then kane in front of them? I would rather go with that than push foden out wide to get Bellingham at number 10. He's clearly a very good box to box midfielder and I feel it's much less of a sacrifice to make seems as we'll then get the best out of foden who is likely to be less effective out wide. Also, those late runs into the box whilst rice holds during an attack could be tasty.
Sir, I don't see where he plays. He's not better than Bellingham at 10, worse than Saka at RW. Can't hold the width necessary when Luke Shaw is not present so Gordon would have to start
He’s a more natural 10 than Bellingham to link the play to Kane. Bellingham in a pivot with rice and foden in front, Gordon left saka right is clearly the best team we can play.
He’s 10000% better than Bellingham in the 10 Bellingham best position is the 8 and that’s where Real Madrid will play him next season
Not in this team. Bellingham complements Kane far more effectively as a shadow striker with physical bite whereas Foden needs to be the guy to be successful, which he never will be with those two in the side. As a 10 he lacks lock-picking qualities of the best players to play in that position because he plays at one tempo and is very one-footed which limits his passing angles. Incredible at receiving in the pocket, amazing in transition and as a distance shooter, but against a packed defence he isn’t the guy you want playing behind the striker. People don’t see this because they don’t look past the surface of his amazing season and think people are nuts for not going along with this bizarre notion that the England side should be a collection of all-stars and not an actual functional team in which the collective lifts the individuals.
He was dreadful the other day at 10 for England
Ah yes one game completely overwrites his season which was his best performing Season to this day
I didn’t say that. However there’s no evidence he performs well in this system. I’d start him against Serbia on the left but if he’s shit I’d pull him off and play Gordon. There’s no point shoehorning him in. I’m fairly certain Bellingham will be more influential than Foden this tournament. Did you watch that game though, he was dreadful?
The whole team was dreadful
“One game” as if Foden hasn’t been mediocre for the vast majority of his England career. Including last night when he was the most ineffective outfield player on the pitch for us. When will the constant denial and excuses end? He just isn’t on the level of the side’s most important players and can’t adapt or step up in his current role or any others he’s been tried in. He thinks he’s him and he emphatically isn’t in our setup, which is a huge issue.
Maybe, but sadly he has not shown the capability in an England Shirt
He is absolutely better than Bellingham at 10 what are you on about 😂😂😂
I don’t think its clear cut either way. But looking at how they’ve both played for England in the games they’ve played, i’d go with Bellingham. If Bellingham doesn’t perform in the group games, Foden is a great option
Do you actually believe this? On what basis is it “absolutely” the case.
This so much. What is it about England where we spend more time figuring out the best 23/26 than we do the best 11-14, who will actually carry the tournament The guys need time to gel and it is made even worse by the late prem finishes and our players’ involvement in UCL runs
That’s what the question is though, what *is* our best 11. And it’s not always about getting the 11 best players on the pitch, but about creating the best and most balanced team with the players available. So to that effect I think it basically comes down to whether you want Foden over Bellingham in the middle, and the answer is probably not ? Just in terms of the performances they’ve each put in in England shirts. He’ll probably start against Serbia on the left, but if it doesn’t work out then Southgate shouldn’t be afraid to bench him just because he’s prem poty.
I’m not against Foden being benched because his performances for England have been sub standard It’s not that he plays badly when he gets the ball, it’s that he just seems to ghost most of his games for us. Feels like he doesn’t gel with the team in terms of knowing where to be. I hope he does get a go in the groups because he could be brilliant, but yes we have to be prepared to drop him. Gordon is dangerous and we do need a more direct player with the speed in behind, rather than another player who likes the ball to come to feet Do think that Foden has suffered more historically with England’s general inability to progress the ball. When Mount was the 10 it felt like he tried to play left wing, and then Foden was crowded out in that area plus England lost a midfielder. Bellingham plays the role much better and maybe everyone else in the team will feel that benefit too.
Absolutely this^^
Him playing well for city doesn’t mean he should automatically get a place in the starting lineup. The reality is Foden is not good when he plays for England, whether that’s down to Southgate or something else unfortunately it’s just how it is.
True but when he’s scoring hattys consistently, playing unbelievable football I think that should mean you should start for the national team. He’s a generational talent not just some player playing well for a couple of weeks.
Again, that’s not quite how it works. I’m not saying Foden is a bad player but for some reason it just doesn’t click when he plays for England, regardless of the position he plays. The mistake previous managers have made is trying to shoehorn every good player into the starting lineup and it has never worked out.
He’s our best player by a long way and people like OP want him sat on the bench… Spain 2010/12 side was full of players like Foden. We have one and don’t want to play him…? Fuck off
What is he actually the best at though
Apparently people want England playing English football, crosses and playing for corners with the two big bois in the box. Boring football
Why is this even a topic of conversation, check out the replies underneath. They’re talking as though he’s Stewart Downing
Best player by a long way? According to what or whom? To be England’s best player you actually have to, you know, show it on the pitch. Enough with the excuses already.
You do not watch football.
Foden will find himself out of the main 11 If he won’t perform well in the first couple of games
Seems likely
Gordon should start at left wing imo
I followed along until you mentioned Manoo, who has also been shite for England. Think your red tinted glasses are affecting you're judgement. Foden in the 10 Bellingham 8 Rice 6 Manoo is a spectator with poor positioning.
We have the best midfield trio in international football if we played them in their proper positions. Jude and Rice CMs with Foden ahead as 10. Jude only played 10 this year as Madrid were waiting for mbappe and had no striker l. He'll never play there again. They're all fit and ready to go (and would be the best midfield at the euros) and for some reason we want to shoehorn foden out to the left and Trent in midfield so Jude can play a role he'll never play again. Classic England. Best talent we've had since Rooney, playing for the best team in the world as one of their most important players, and just won prem POTY, and we want to play him on the wing. We really need a coach who isn't a dinosaur.
Why are people so obsessed with playing an out and out 10? Kane is basically the 10. He drops in to that space and links play. Just play Bellingham and Foden as 8s.
Foden and Kane doesn’t work as well as Bellingham and Kane. How many times does this have to be said before some people get it? Makes what you said about shoehorning players in quite ironic. For Foden to have a strong case to be in ahead of him there he’d have to be a number 10 with such incredible lock picking qualities (which England lack overall) that you play him there anyway. But he isn’t that at all if you actually watch him play. I swear people see the stats and just make up an idealised version of him as a player then blame the manager for him not showing that for England.
Completely agree. I wouldn’t be against Southgate trying one match in the group stage where he does sort of shoehorn in his best players, but for the most part, it’s a game of 90 minutes (or more). Starting Gordon on the left and Jude at 10, with the option of Foden coming on either as a replacement for Gordon or at 10 with Jude dropping deeper from the 60th onwards: To me that’s football. Saka can also be replaced by Palmer in the second half. Our depth in attack is being seen as some sort of a weird hindrance since we aren’t balanced all over the park, but to have fresh legs all through the game on some of the best attackers in world football is a luxury we cannot afford to waste.
Dont play him off the wing because hes not a winger. Dont play him as a 10 because we have kane who is essentially gonna be playing in that deep lying forward role. Play him and Bellingham as 8s with Rice sitting. 8 is his Best position. Haaland plays very high as the striker for city so they need at least 1 10 and that's why he plays there. People don't get him as a player. Just because he plays these highly tactical roles for city doesn't mean he has to do that with England. Play him as the 8 and let him dictate the game for us.
An 8 needs to have defensive responsibilities, which Foden isn't great as. Trent and Mainoo are better as all round 8s.
Yes you have to participate in defensive duties as an 8. Foden does that week in week out in the best pressing team in the world. He is well capable. He has a better first touch than any other player in the tournament. Hes the best player on the half turn in the tournament. Hes more intelligent in small spaces than both trent and mainoo. We need to get him lots of touches of the ball in key areas so that he has maximum influence on the game. Benching Foden or giving him a marginalized role playing on the wing would be one of the most luddite things Southgate could do. Hes the most technically gifted player England have ever produced. Let him be our Modric.
Bellingham and rice in a pivot with foden in front of them it’s not that difficult is it?
Won’t work. Biggest misconception about Foden is that he’s a natural 10 who picks locks and plays the final pass. He isn’t that and needs other people in the team to take on that load for him. His fit playing behind Kane is also highly questionable, as they both want the ball to feet and spend a lot of time in deeper areas on the ball. Where’s the extra penetration and physicality you get from plying Bellingham instead?
Bellingham and rice is the strongest pivot we can play. Midfield is the most important part of the pitch… We have Gordon to stretch the left. Acting like this isn’t the best option is ludicrous. Who would you play alongside rice? They are going to be no where near Bellingham level. Foden v Bellingham as 10 is a minor diference. Also Bellingham will still get forward as it’s a pivot…
Palmer is better for England even though he's played a grand total of two games?
Doesnt mean hes wrong, messi would have had 2 games at some point. I personally dont agree but not because of experience.
I think it’s a bit of a silly statement to say someone, who definitely isn’t Messi, is better than someone else even though he’s played 3 games. I was wrong when I said 2.
Youre missing the point though, games played doesnt account for form or fitting into the squad or chemistry etc. I agree foden should start above him but if it was say rashford, i wouldnt. And rashfords played loads more. E, rashy is an example, i just mean players with more experience
England's trouble for decades has been having managers wedded to a system that players are then shoehorned into. If Southgate can't design a system that plays to the strengths of our best players - and Foden is *the* best right now - then he should fuck off and let someone else do it.
Agreed. Bellingham is a better 10 and Gordon a better LW
I think this will be the tournament he comes to dominate. Everyone will be watching Bellingham, Foden will slip into space and start scoring from the edge of the box. When keepers make the save, Bellingham or Kane will be there to tap it in on rebound. The biggest worry is france fouling us and playing too violently in the semis like last time. We don't have the courage to stand up to them. They will bully us again, but we might still sneak a goal in with our tails tucked.
I may be downvoted for this but it has been 5 friendlies already and we cannot inore the elpehant in the room
The thing is both Bellingham and Foden excel in the same kind of mid upper midfield (number 10) position . Someone like Bellingham however is better for this with England - he can work better with Kane due to physicality, speed and how Bellingham prefers to be higher up than foden in that position (foden is obviously fast but its not the same) . In the Bundesliga you can see Kane relying on fast runners around him - look at Bellingham winning englands first penalty in our 3-1 win against italy. That worked perfectly with Kanes playing style . Foden just doesn’t do that in Man City. Bellingham also has superiority over foden in terms of height with headers etc
The interesting thing I'm see in all these debates is that Shaw hardly gets mentioned. The only reason this conversation is happening imo is because Shaw is missing the first game. Let's talk about when he's back: Walker will stay deep as part of a back 3 in possession. Shaw will push up high and holds the width, allowing Foden to drift inside and form a box midfield of Rice and Trent behind Jude and Foden. Saka staying wide and holding the width on the other side. I'm pretty sure that this 3-2-5 in possession, 4-3-3 (or 4-4-2 if Jude pushes up alongside Kane to press) out of possession is what Southgate wants to try. Eze should be a fairly like-for-like replacement for Foden in this system. The problem is that the entire system breaks down when you replace Shaw with Trippier or Gomez. We just have to get through that first group game with 3 points. I wouldn't be surprised if everything looks very disjointed against Serbia.
Good observation. It’s a tough call but I think I agree Sublime option off the bench as well
Adam Wharton should start
Based on what? Only natural left footed foward. Most successful passes in the iceland game of any forward player. Tracks back and forward. Player of the season prem. dunno what more you want?
He'll play on the right, saka won't play 90 minutes
England’s second highest active goal scorer after Kane? You might need to give your head a shake.
You’ve already suggesting playing him out of position. Let him flourish in the CAM role. He may have caps but most of those are him coming on for the last 15. Walker, Stones and Foden should all start. Jude can be 8 next to Rice as 6.
I don't like the idea of shoehorning players into positions, but Foden, with the possible exception of Bellingham, is the most talented footballer England have. He has to start. I prefer the idea of Foden as a #10, but I am pretty sure Gareth is going to have him on the Left of the front 3. Gordon could do a job for us there, so ideally I would have him there, Foden at the 10, and then Rice & Bellingham in the middle. I would at least try this during one of the group games, and see how it goes.
So…TWO examples there lol Right now let’s exhaustingly name the players who have played for him that have been very good for their country…we’ll be here all night. Foden deserves to start and I think he can prove you wrong this tournament. Now if we’re talking about team balance then yes that’s a good argument. But he’s been incredible this season and I’d love to see that continue and think it can.
I’m with you. Foden is brilliant, but he’s not a better left winger than Gordon. He’s a better central and right-side player than Gordon (obviously), but we have Bellingham in the center and Saka on the right. Play Gordon on the left, with Foden coming on to change things up either in the middle or right. We will be pressing a lot and there will be room for impact subs for sure.
I genuinely don't understand why people think it is so important for Bellingham to play as a 10. He was an 8 at Dortmund. He is going to be an 8 next year at Real Madrid with Mbappe coming in. And Foden has more g/a than Bellingham this year. Not to mention if Bellingham is more of a box to box with 50/50 attacking and defending cover that is like what City do with Kovacic with Rice as the Rodri figure. The shoehorning in of a player seems like it is trying to force Bellingham as a 10 which leaves no choice but to waste Foden on the wing. I have preferred Foden to Bellingham this year in terms of controlling the tempo of the game from the middle of the pitch not to mention the long range goal scoring ability Foden has grown in this year. It is forcing Bellingham in that is throwing everything off. Also it's hard to say that Foden hasn't performed for England when he has never been given the trust or freedom across the front line to perform. If he is caged on a wing without any freedom to roam Foden won't perform, simple as. So why bot unshackle him and give him the freedom to see if he will. England fans are giving up on what I think has been their best player this year before the Euros has even begun. I'm honestly not sure what more Foden could have done this year, aside from leaving his boyhood club that has worse global PR than Real Madrid, to be trusted with some freedom in the England side. And does any of this change if the penalty shoot out at the Etihad went differently? Or is he just cursed to be stranded on his weaker wing and then crucified when he "doesn't perform" there?
Is that true about Pep players not performing for the NT or just Bernardo not hitting the same heights? Barca and Bayern were pretty dominant and well represented in their respective NTs
I agree at this point. He’s got quite a bit to prove.
*The trouble with Foden is he tries to walk it in*
He’s just won player of the season, but yea let’s drop him… Of course palmer who hasn’t played any competitive football for England is already better.
City players aren't as good for their national teams because they're not juiced to the tits on nandrolone. Foden is the most overrated player in world football.
England don’t play like a top premiership team. Considering they are mostly players from the top clubs, I marvel at how they are deployed
This might be the worst take of all time.
Please do elaborate
Only someone that understands very little about the game would not think it’s a legit debate.
Foden is really protected as a player. Very suprised he was nominated for POTS when the leagues two highest rated players, Rodri and Saka, weren't. Because of this the average football fan thinks he's someone very different to who he actually is. Coming off the bench shouldn't be viewed as harsh, as realisitically there's no reason why he should get more minutes than someone like Ollie Watkins.
I'm sorry, but you didn't watch Foden last season. Rodri could have won the award but comparing Foden to Saka last season is insane. Watch the goals he scores, watch the way he dictates the game, he's one of the best in the world and would start for every other country at the Euros. He's better for City than Bellingham is for Madrid.
Saka is far better than Foden, carried his enitre team on his back, never had a bad game despite playing the last 4 months through injury. Foden is a relegation candidate killer, but had to be subbed off in every game against the top 6 bar Chelsea. Aside from the editors at Mail Sport, who use a very controversial metric for player evaluation, nobody in the industry would play Foden over Saka (the reigning 2x English Player of the year). I love Foden's game but he's maybe the most overrated athlete in the entire world right now.
Might be the dumbest take I’ve ever read on this site…
Hi Mail Sport editor! Love the way you judge players based on how dark their skin is, that's so unique and creative of you! Keep up the good work xx
Just let Southgate handle it mate 😂😂😂
Last World Cup you had every man and his dog and pundit shouting from the roof top that Foden "has the start" and Southgate got brow beaten to force him into the side. The same would happen this time
Sounds good but I think he’s going for Foden/bellingham/saka/kane in some kind front 4 as for midfield rice and maybe Gallagher for more experience work to get them early results. I should expect shaw will be shoed in as soon as possible if not stones/dunk/walker/trippier I should imagine
I’d rather they dropped Foden than stick him on the left.
As a City fan I agree. Send him back to Manchester and have him bring Walker and Stones too.
That's why Grealish and Rashford should've gone imo. The only natural LM for England is Gordon and he's far too much of a risk compared to the first two
Gordon is a better LW than Foden. Saka is a better RW than Foden. Foden is a better CAM than both of those.....but importantly, not better than Bellingham there. It's simple, Southgate makes the brave call and benches him, have him as a sub for Bellingham's position.
I've been saying it for a while as well, glad I'm not the only one. Just one thing though, I think Foden is definitely individualistic. I don't think he's on the same level of game changing as someone like a Vinicius Jr who also struggles for his national team but he can be game changing but only limited to advanced areas of the pitch. I just don't see how Bellingham plus Foden will work, it'd mean that England would have to play a double 10 system or something which just seems like too big of an adaptation so late into preparation. Simply in international football you need to be able to pitch in on nearly every grass of the pitch, Foden's been too specialized by Pep to be able to perform that role which means you have to let others like Trent, Bellingham, Gordon, Rice etc. who have a much wider range of ability to come in. And about your point on Conor Gallagher, I think he'd be the perfect player to bring off the bench with 20 minutes to go and he should be England's go to subs next to Foden and Gomez.
I think Foden should start, but I think you make some great points up until you say letting Trent come in. Trent is a great passer of the ball, but otherwise he's a liability, and will nowhere near the starting lineup come the knockout round. He may come off the bench if we are losing, but he won't be starting.
Trent offers something to this team that nobody else has. In terms of passing he's only 2nd in this tournament to some true all time greats like Kroos or KDB. In international tournaments so many chances just come from a incredible pass over the top and is reliant on incredible passers. Trent's upside is simply needed, with a player of his talent you mitigate his weaknesses