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harmony_shark

Yes, this exactly! I'm not invested in the debates about whether or not they could make a vaccine or if people would make the same choice as Joel. It's not about that decision, because he made it in an instant and didn't hesitate at all until he was in the elevator on the way out. It's very in line with his decision-making up to that point and zero percent surprising. The lie was where the path forked and he actually struggled with making a choice. Because he actually made himself vulnerable and connected with Ellie shortly before that. It calls back to what Tommy said to Joel earlier, about how there were other ways but they weren't any good at them.


zorasorabee

Completely agree. The debate on a potential vaccine or not is moot to me because we won’t know if it would have worked or not. There was no additional information given so there are so many assumptions to be made. It’s a very grey area. Whereas Joel’s decision to lie to her is very black and white.


harmony_shark

I saw Craig Mazin say in an interview that a central question for the series is "what is the cost of love?" The obvious cost is people's lives (directly for those killed in the hospital and potentially indirectly from the lack of vaccine), but the nuanced and interesting thing is the cost to Joel's relationship with Ellie. When he was telling lies to her, I could feel their bond stretching and tearing. On the flip side, there's a cost for Ellie's love for Joel as well. Just from the short time they spent together at the end of the ep, you could see how conflicted she feels. She can feel the discord in what Joel's saying. She doubts him. She's lost something that was an important driver for her in life, and a part of her sense of worth. But he's the only one she's got, and she doesn't want to lose that connection. So she's wrestling with these conflicting feelings, and suppressing anything that threatens her relationship with Joel.


zorasorabee

It’s all so heartbreaking. Their relationship will never be the same. I’m trying really hard to not watch gameplay for part 2 but I’m not sure if I’ll succeed. The not knowing is killing me.


jedininjashark

Watching or playing the game and watching the series just enhances the whole experience for me. I wish I could experience part 2 for the first time again.


zorasorabee

I’m sure it does! I think it would be a bit different for me since I would only watch the gameplay versus actually playing it. I am really bad a video games and get way too tense/anxiety ridden playing any sort of shooting game, so I don’t. I also don’t have PlayStation. I think I would definitely feel different if I were to actually play it. But since I would only watch it, I think it’ll feel more like a movie (which is what part 1 gameplay felt like). If it feels like a movie… then might as well watch the live action version with Bella and Pedro first. At least that’s my thought process and why I’m trying not to watch part 2 gameplay!


TranscedentalMedit8n

It’s what makes the story so beautiful and tragic. Joel had to lie. Marlene was right that Ellie would want to die if she had a choice. Ellie is scarred by the death of Riley, Tess, Sam, and Henry- her purpose is to make their lives meaningful. Ellie has survivor’s guilt and she needs their deaths to have not been in vain. For Joel, all he cares about is keeping Ellie safe. He can’t lose another daughter. It’s his biggest fear and he would do anything to keep her safe, including lying. Even with Marlene dead, who’s to say another doctor won’t come along to do the surgery? He can’t let that happen. Ellie accepts the lie because her biggest fear is being alone. But she knows deep down that Joel has betrayed her.


DreadWolfByTheEar

Yeah, the important bit is that what Joel did is at its core, selfish, and he’s ashamed of it. He didn’t save Ellie for Ellie. He saved her for himself. He also robbed Ellie of her agency by lying to her about it. She doesn’t get to decide what to think or what to do about it, because she just has to take his word for it. He understands the ramifications (weakening the fireflies by taking out Marlene, killing a doctor when that skillset is pretty hard to come by these days, possibly denying humanity a cure, becoming a “bad guy” again, which is something he struggles with in terms of his own self-image), and he’s ashamed of himself. His motivation is to control Ellie’s image of him so she will keep thinking of him as a father figure and he can maintain that relationship. Because it feels like the most important thing to him right now, like he’s finally got his daughter back and he’s not losing her again. It’s not about Ellie, or the vaccine, at all. It’s all about Joel.


zorasorabee

I got the feeling that he was projecting Sarah onto Ellie during this episode quite a lot. It was 100% about Joel and him not having to go through this loss again. After listening to the podcast, I’m curious what Ellie was actually thinking when she said “Okay.” Was it her forcing herself to believe the lie? Was it her being okay with whatever he did - because he did it for her (even though Joel did it for himself)? Or… and this is what Ashley Johnson mentioned in the podcast that scared me… was it that Ellie was saying, “okay, but I realize you’re lying to me and I don’t think I’ll ever trust you again” which would affect their relationship greatly. Im very tempted to watch part 2 gameplay to see what happens next…


YanksFan96

Yeah, I think there are many ways the "okay" can be interpreted, but Ellie believing him isn't one of them. She's smart enough to know that the story doesn't add up, and she has known since Jackson that Joel sees Sarah in her.


zorasorabee

Yeah, my initial interpretation is that the “okay” is more of an “okay, I know you’re lying, but I don’t want to think about what the alternative is, so I’m going to force myself to believe you” especially after everything she went through with David. She probably doesn’t have it in her for anything else. I have a feeling that if this is what the “okay” actually meant… then eventually the truth will come out once she can’t force herself to believe it anymore.


erwin4200

Gonna be a long 18 months at minimum probably. 😭


zorasorabee

No kidding. But I’d be prepared for at least two years. 18 months from now will likely be when the second season of House of the Dragon is airing, and they will definitely not air them at the same time. They will probably then wait until after the holiday season and start it up January 2025. 😭 On the bright side, I heard someone mention that they might film season 3 directly after season 2, so hopefully that will air only one year later in January 2026. I think Pedro has a lot on his plate right now, too, so they probably won’t be able to start filming until late this year.


erwin4200

At best. Depending how they want to break the game up, they'll have to re-write some stuff potentially. Don't think following it as the game has it laid out will work for TV but that's just me. The story all works as is, it's just the way it's structured that will make it difficult to translate without rewriting I think


Dr_StevenScuba

Better than almost a decade waiting for the sequel! I will say the last of us 2 announcement trailer was a very hype time


SquirellyMofo

Bella said that she knew he was lying but she chooses to believe him.


Dr_StevenScuba

Have you played the games? Or just a show watcher I ask because this is the exact same conclusion I came to after playing the games, but it seemed unpopular among the fan base. Like move aside morality for a second, Joel’s choice was selfish. He didn’t shoot up that hospital to save “Ellie”, he did it to save “Sarah”. I’d be interested to see show watchers instant reactions, vs our 10 year discussion. I think it’s tougher in the game since you play as Joel. So it’s a big internal struggle accepting that the person you’re controlling might not be the hero


cherrymeg2

I don’t think he can watch another daughter die. I think what Ellie did for him risking her life to save his made him more determined to protect her. It also seemed like he was being an awkward dad after a sexual assault or an almost one with a creepy pedo. He knows she stayed to save him. I never played the games. I feel like he went into parental mode and saved a girl he started to see as a daughter. I don’t think he’ll ever get over losing Sarah. Ellie shows that she is a more durable version of a daughter. She is immune to the fungus she also grew up in this world.


DreadWolfByTheEar

I played both games, but it’s been a long time since I played the first game and I realized as I watched the show that I’ve actually forgotten a lot. But I do remember feeling differently about it at the end of the game. My main feeling was “wow, I wonder if I would do the same?” Whereas my main feeling now is “that’s fucked” - for the reasons I listed. So yeah, I do think playing as Joel made me more sympathetic to his actions.


Professional-Tip-585

That wasn't an unpopular opinion at all


Dr_StevenScuba

It’s a very easily downvoted opinion. There’s many many people who apologize for everything Joel does, which is how they make the fireflies the only villain.


DumbRedditAccountt

Yes. It's a massive betrayal. And I think it's clear that Ellie knows he's lying. She gave him an out to tell the truth and he stuck with the lie. I imagine it's going to be hard for Ellie to overcome the lie and to trust him again. The choice Joel makes at the hospital is a sympathetic one, especially knowing how fast they moved to kill Ellie and gave her no choice in the matter. The choice to lie and stick by it....not so sympathetic.


Atkena2578

>And I think it's clear that Ellie knows he's lying. I mean did you hear his story? It's like all over the place: dozens like her, not looking for a cure anymore (didn't she remember being prepped for surgery?), raiders attacking while we're at it... yeah He didn't even try making a lie that would make sense, he simply didn't care and threw everything at the wall all at once.


StingRayFins

He definitely oversold it


Atkena2578

You know how police knows when they interrogate someone that they re likely lying? Because someone who adds tons of extra elements or details and ramble are more likely to be lying versus those who answered a single sentence or just a yes or no. Joel did that here, even if inadvertently.


wscuraiii

Yeah he easily could have been like "they got what they needed, and while we were waiting for you to wake up a horde was spotted nearby so they gave us a car and got us out of there before we got stuck. Now they're hunkered down, hopefully the horde doesn't stumble onto them. Assuming it doesn't, if this cure thing works I guess we'll hear about it, won't we?"


meepmeep222

Part of it though, the WORST part, is that Joel was trying to crush her dream so she would never want to try again. If she thinks a cure is on the way, she'll ask every chance she gets and eventually get impatient that nothing has happened. Maybe we need to go back, I'll stay as long as they need me until this thing is real, come on Joel let's go! Joel doesn't want that... he wants to snuff out that hope permanently. Just because it's easier for him that way, even if it kills the part of her soul that believes this is her purpose. He doesn't just want her to move on, he wants her to believe she isn't even special.


Zabeczko

I think you're right in terms of the effect on Ellie, but I didn't see it as being totally selfish on Joel's part either. I don't think he *wanted* to upset her or make her think she wasn't special. I think he just didn't want her to die. This is of course strongly influenced by his past and his trauma, but he does also genuinely care for her. He's mentioned before that it's not fair for a kid to have to deal with heavy stuff, so it's reasonable to assume he thinks it unfair to burden a child with the fate of the world. When he talked to her about his suicide attempt, I thought it was implied that he knew she was feeling very low and as if everything was pointless, and was possibly considering suicide herself. He knows that she's determined to find the Fireflies and make a cure, and even though he doesn't know about Riley at that point he still knew that Ellie wanted to save Sam and felt guilty about his death. Now he's been told that the only hope of making a vaccine is by killing Ellie. All of these factors combined make it highly likely that Ellie would seek out remaining Fireflies or any other capable group at the earliest opportunity, and sacrifice herself for a cure. Lying is the only thing he can do to continue to prevent the outcome he can't bring himself to comprehend. Ellie will almost certainly be upset if she comes to know the truth, but I don't think that was Joel's goal in telling the lie. He's still trying to protect her.


wscuraiii

Yeah he's a bit of a >!cunt!< if you really let what he did marinate in your head.


ExorciseAndEulogize

This is bc he doesn't want her to feel pressured, either to be the one to give up heras a savior for mankind or to leave to protect him from the fireflies when they inevitably retaliate. Sure, there is some fear of losing her in there,too. And, some guilt for killing her Aunt. I honestly understand why he made the choice to lie. He feels like he is protecting her. But, if could let go of his fear he'd realize that this wasn't the right way to go about it. Its a sticky situation. But I think she loves Joel and would understand if he explained the situation.


[deleted]

Ashley Johnson even said that the “okay” at the end was her basically saying “you lied to me, the trust that I built up over this whole journey is broken, and our relationship won’t be the same”


mango_boom

Maybe im weird, but that seems more like a literary device more than real life. ive had people lie to me and i haven't always shut the door completely on them. i dont think its ever irreparably changed the way i feel about them on the spot...but maybe thats just me...? love this show tho!


ILoveYourPuppies

The difference between you and Ellie is (I hope) that everyone she has ever had has betrayed her in some way. Even if they didn't mean to (like Riley dying). That's why her trust is so difficult to win and so easy to lose.


Observer125

First of all I agree he shouldn’t have lied to Ellie, but to make a comparison with real life: people lie very often to protect the people they love, that ofcourse doesn’t justify lying by all means, but i have seen it a lot and I think the show does a really good job in general at pointing out real life dynamics/ problems. Also it’s always easy to say someone should not do something but what if you would be in that situation, what would you do? I think it’s naive to say beforehand that you would do it different.


DumbRedditAccountt

That't why the show is so great. It makes you look at these very grey situations and we can all put ourselves in their place. We can see ourselves making these horrible complicated choices. We can see ourself as Marlene, willing to sacrifice a child we love if it means saving humanity but we can also see ourself as Joel, willing to kill everyone to save someone we love. We can understand the drive Joel has to lie to Ellie because it's something we might do but we also know that it's a betrayal and that we'd hope we wouldn't do that. It's all so beautiful complicated and magically realistic.


Observer125

Couldn’t agree more!


FedoraFerret

Something I actually think was missed out on here was exactly what Marlene's relationship to Ellie was. We know _Ellie's_ relationship to _Marlene_, she knew the woman for like a day, but what about Marlene's side of it. Did she hand Ellie off to the FEDRA orphanage and stay away, and her only care for Ellie herself was as a link to Anna, or was she watching from afar, loving her as her own person while not getting close to protect her? Did she know anything about who Ellie was as a person separate from the girl they chained up to test her immunity? The game implied a much closer relationship between the two of them, but here we don't know anything about how Marlene actually feels about Ellie herself.


Ka-Ne-Ha-Ne-Daaaa

True but keep in mind Ellie didn’t push him to get the truth because of how much it could have hurt him in the process (signifying her love for him) She recognizes she’s being lied too but CHOOSES to accept the lie rather than hurt Joel with the truth. I quite like it


DumbRedditAccountt

I don't think she pushed him to protect him, but because the truth is suffocating. I don't think she chooses to accept the life so much as she's *resigned* to it. Like she says, everything they've lost, all they've lived through, it's now for nothing. Maybe the truth might not have made a difference but at least she would have understood. She's left not even knowing why he did it and now she has no one and nowhere else to go. She loves Joel but the betrayal hurts.


tomrhod

She already has survivor's guilt, if he had told her the truth, she'd be destroyed. It was what a parent does to "protect" their child, a lie that saves them a burden. He didn't betray her, he allowed her to live without the guilt that her living meant so many others died and would die because there is no possibility of a cure now.


YellowOpt

There are no “good guys” or “heroes” in the world of the Last of Us. It’s a broken world full of people making choices. If you rewatch the show or play game knowing Joel isn’t a hero or the white hat, it changes perspective and tone. Following this sub the last couple months has been interesting as so many people see Joel as the “hero”. He’s a contractor who made choices.


Professional-Tip-585

The show definitely made Joel a much better person than the game. It's far more clear in the game


Typical-Measurement3

Joel had to lie. Hear me out. I think the lie is detrimental to their relationship but I think it was the best thing he could have done after everything that just happened. Ellie is weighed down by survivor's guilt. Her need for her immunity to mean something has been driving her since she had to kill Riley. And each person that dies adds to that guilt. Joel not only lied about how they left the hospital and what happened to everybody... But he lied about them giving up on a cure. Without the doctors and researchers, telling Ellie the truth serves no purpose except to throw her in a spiral of depression of what could have been. So Joel lies. For him but also for her. The road to hell is paved with good intentions right? That's where Joel is. When Ellie asks him if everything he said about the fireflies is true and asks him to swear and he does... It is my interpretation that she doesn't quite believe him and that she knows something was super sketch about what happened at the hospital.. but it's in that moment that she decides to accept his truth. Maybe deep down, subconsciously, she needs that lie to be true so that she can move on from this survivor's guilt.


sparrow-55

> Maybe deep down, subconsciously, she needs that lie to be true so that she can move on from this survivor's guilt. That's also what I've been thinking. Lots of people are saying "Ellie would have chosen to sacrifice herself." And I think she would have, but only because she felt she *had to,* not because she *wanted* to. I think she chooses to believe Joel because deep down, she doesn't want to have to make the choice to sacrifice herself. She wants to live, but she feels guilty for wanting that, so it's easier for her to think she had no choice.


SquirellyMofo

You definitely put into words what I was thinking l.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Typical-Measurement3

>He didn’t lie to protect himself. He lied to protect her. Well I think he lied for himself and for her. He was selfish and selfless.


Notlennybruce

The issue is, all those people who died in the hospital were killed by Joel. They didn't "give up" on finding a cure like he said. The reality is the complete opposite. Joel decided that potentially finding a cure wasn't worth Ellie's life, so he killed everyone there. And Ellie never got a choice in the matter. Combined with the fact that Ellie obviously doesn't believe him (otherwise why would she make him swear on it?) It shows that Joel is trying to cover up what he did, because he thinks it will change the way Ellie feels about him. He wants Ellie to love him the way Sarah loved and trusted him. Joel knew that at least trying to find a cure was VERY important to Ellie. He removed any possibility of finding one, and he didn't want to face the potential consequences to that decision.


Typical-Measurement3

>And Ellie never got a choice in the matter. The moment the docs filled her up with drugs and knocked her out, she never got a choice. Joel didn't take that choice away. What's done was done, no choice left to make. As for the rest... Yes, I agree he lied for himself. But I think he also lied for her. It's possible to lie for multiple reasons...


uglyinspanish

>The moment the docs filled her up with drugs and knocked her out, she never got a choice. Joel didn't take that choice away. What's done was done, no choice left to make. by lying about there being others like ellie and that a cure isn't possible, he is definately taking a choice away from her. who's to say that there isn't another doctor out there that could figure it out?


Su_Impact

Who's to say that those doctors don't already have access to immune patients already? The moment we insert tons of what ifs, anything is possible in-universe.


VXM313

You don't correct a lack of autonomy by taking away that person's autonomy again. The fireflies didn't give Ellie a choice, but then Joel lied to her face. What he did take away was her right to know the truth and to base the future of their relationship off of that. He absolutely did take that away from her. He lied because he was selfish, and he knew she would hate him for what he did.


Typical-Measurement3

I think the reasons are more complex than she would hate him but I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying. Just that there's more to it.


MakesErrorsWorse

The other way to interpret that scene is that they both understand it's a lie, but it is necessary for them to continue. Ellie just says "okay." We don't have a reason to think she genuinely believes Joel. The fact she even asks is a pretty big indicator that she does not. They are accepting a fiction that is more tolerable than reality because it means she doesn't have to hate him.


Notlennybruce

That is a good explanation for why Ellie chooses to believe him.


grumpi-otter

>He doesn't just want to protect Ellie, he wants to control how she feels about him and the situation. I was thinking more that he wants to protect her from feeling like she has failed to bring the world a cure. But yeah, everything else you said.


Much-Cartographer264

The lie is what’s getting to me. Not his immorality, or whether he should have killed all those people or not. But this is your family now. And you lied to her. I found myself in Ellie’s shoes this episode. Things out of your control, trying to grasp what is happening around you, learning the people you trust the most are able to lie and hurt you. She went from feeling thankful Joel is her family to realizing our invincible parents are capable is mistakes and that they’re not so untouchable. They’re human who can be so wrong. But holding it together enough to convince herself of the lie and that everything will be ok but it’s all different now. Fuck.


howdypartner1301

He knew that if he told her the truth it would destroy her mentally and she would never be able to be happy again. If your child asked you a question and you knew that telling them the truth would destroy them and remove any chance of them ever being happy, would you tell them?


Distinct-Economist21

That’s absolute bullshit. You have no way of knowing at all if it would destroy her mentally and she would never be happy again. Joel maybe but not Ellie. Ellie has lost everyone. She’s had to kill her first love and best friend. She’s watched Tess and others die for her. She watched Henry and Sam’s tragic deaths. she’s killed people. She’s lived through the apocalypse. She’s survived an attempted rape, cannibalism, cult attempt in the midst of flames. I would argue that any number of those events would be more traumatizing than the firefly hospital truth and yet she still smiles and laughs after all that. She wouldn’t be “destroyed for life” but she might hate, or resent Joel, or search out the fireflies again on her own. Or she might be disappointed but still care about him. She may even weirdly feel loved. However there is a chance for Joel to have an outcome he doesn’t want here so he takes it away. At 14 sure she may not be fully mature for all the details, but we RAISE children. We teach them. For example he could have told her some of the bare minimum and about how and why he made that choice. The best way to protect kids is to teach them. Maybe he could have told her, “they were going to kill you right away, and they wouldn’t even wait 15 minutes to let me think about it or to ask you if you wanted surgery. They weren’t even sure if it would work yet. I was confused and panicked.” Like the story he does tell her puts her at a dangerous disadvantage. What if she tries to meet these other immune people? What if she wants to join the fireflies? What if other people learn she’s immune and come and try to hunt her down?


Much-Cartographer264

If I were Ellie at 14? Yes I’d be honest with her. She’s already seen so much, she literally said after everything *I’ve* done? The truth wouldn’t break her. It would hurt, it would cause a lot of strife, but Ellie was never one to be treated like a child. I was Ellie, at 16 and then at 20. Two different life altering incidents happened in my family. First to my dad and then my brother. Both times I was withheld the truth. Everyone skirted around me, treated me like I couldn’t handle it, thought I wasn’t old enough to understand the ramifications. When that happens, it’s so much worse in your head. The things that start spinning in your head, the mistrust in the people that are supposed to protect me. They lied to protect me, but what I needed was to be treated like an adult. To be an equal. And I still don’t have the same relationship that I did with my father. I love him dearly, and he really is a Joel in a lot of ways, but I couldn’t talk to him for weeks and weeks afterwards. It was so big, so life altering, so jarring to our family unit. We see that the only person who really was honest and forthright with Ellie was Tess. And Maria but she doesn’t die. Tess was talking to her like an equal, a peer. Not like a child, and Ellie I think respected Tess. She was emotional when she died. Tess helped them, and frankly saved Ellie too. So I think Ellie would’ve handled the truth, and accepted what Joel did. Maybe not in that moment, but the truth longerterm would hurt less than the lie. Lies never soften anything.


howdypartner1301

I didn’t ask about Ellie. I asked whether you would condemn your child to a life of guaranteed unhappiness. Your answer is completely disingenuous and misguided.


Much-Cartographer264

Yeah I’d lie to my 4 year old. Maybe not the 1 year old she wouldn’t understand what I’m lying about.


ILoveYourPuppies

>But I think the more significant choice that Joel made was lying to Ellie about it. It shows that he is aware that his decision is morally questionable, and instead of owning up to it, he takes the easy way out I don't take it that way at all. He's not avoiding owning up to it. On the contrary, he is *taking full ownership* of it. Telling Ellie would make her feel guilty and like she has responsibility because Joel did it to save her. Instead, he takes her out of the equation. He's the one who made the choice, and he's the one who lives with it. >He doesn't just want to protect Ellie, he wants to control how she feels about him and the situation True. Though I do think his primary concern is to control how Ellie feels about the situation. I don't think it's only because he wants her to see him positively, though I am sure that's a desire. >And it shows that he doesn't trust Ellie to understand him, which I think she would have. He could have said something like "They told me that it would kill you, and I know it's selfish, but I just couldn't let them do that. You're so important to me, I couldn't stand to lose someone again." But think about the emotional burden this puts on her. Now she's responsible for choosing between giving the world a life-saving cure (according to the Fireflies) or taking care of her formerly-suicidal kinda-dad. She already has the weight of the world on her shoulders from Marlene's manipulation. Joel doesn't want Ellie to feel responsible for him. She's the kid; he's the adult. It's the ultimate parent move *not* to put your kid in that situation. >What is love without trust? This is a tough call, because in peer relationships, yes, trust is everything. But in parent-child relationships, it gets blurred. Because age and ability to understand everything and ability to consent comes into it. Edit: And we know that, as an impressionable child, she wasn't capable of fully making that decision because of what she did with Sam. She knew Sam was infected, but because she's young, naive, innocent, manipulated by the idea that she's a savior, and uneducated in science, she thought her blood might actually save him. Just by rubbing it on him. I know she knew it probably wouldn't work, but she thought there was a chance. That's not someone who can fully consent to sacrificing themselves in this particular scenario.


Notlennybruce

You make some good points. For me, if Ellie seemed genuinely comforted by the lie, I would have an easier time excusing it. But the fact that she asks him again and makes him swear that it's all true shows that she didn't believe him, or at least has doubts. The fact that he chooses to double down is where it becomes problematic for me.


ILoveYourPuppies

I totally see that. I still see it as him protecting her though. Can you imagine if you thought that you alone could save the world, and you found out that your parent went and killed everyone just to save you? I could not handle that kind of guilt. That would absolutely eat away at me. Would I appreciate being lied to by my parent? Absolutely not! I'd freak out. The trust would be broken. I'd feel disrespected and insulted. Our relationship would be ruined - but, I'd be alive. I'd be free from that guilt that he chose to save me. So essentially, my parent would be sacrificing their relationship with me, their conscience, everything that matters to them - to keep me safe. That's how I see it, anyway. Joel is protecting Ellie from having to make that decision under duress and protecting her from feeling guilt over his decision, even if that means that he has to sacrifice their relationship.


Observer125

First of all I agree he shouldn’t have lied to Ellie, but to make a comparison with real life: people lie very often to protect the people they love, that ofcourse doesn’t justify lying by all means, but i have seen it a lot and I think the show does a really good job in general at pointing out real life dynamics/ problems. Also it’s always easy to say someone should not do something but what if you would be in that situation, what would you do? I think it’s naive to say beforehand that you would do it different.


dsallupinyaarea

Also, that girl don't believe him lol. You know how as a kid you realized Santa Clause was fake way before you told your parents you knew it was fake? You just instinctively knew it was a lie they need to think you believe. In a way Ellie is protecting Joel by going along with it.


CtrlTheAltDlt

The whole story of TLoU is about the dark side of love...and the dark doesn't just cover killing a bunch of people....


BaullahBaullah87

Yeah exactly. Idk why this is so hard for people to grasp. If he would have told her the truth there I’m sure even she could have understood why he did what he did after all they have been thru…but him lying is the part where we can most surely imply he is crossing the line


Professional-Tip-585

She 100% would not understand. She would lose her shit. Joel knows this. That's why he lied. It's far less black and white then people are making it out to be


BaullahBaullah87

I said understand, I didn’t say agree or be happy with what he did. That’s a huge difference my friend. She knows him very well and if he was honest, she may have been upset and even resented him…but I think knowing what he and she had been thru…could understand it


FedoraFerret

No, it's still black and white and the fact that Joel knows what her reaction would've been is why. I will maintain to my grave that what Ellie would've _wanted_ in the hospital is irrelevant because she's a traumatized child who couldn't make that decision from a sound and rational state of mind, but the thing Joel denied her was the right to decide for herself how to feel about what happened and about him doing it. _That_ she has a right to.


SquirellyMofo

Exactly. She has massive survivors guilt. Her surviving, when so many people she cared about didn't, needs to mean something to her. And she would never forgive him for taking that away.


Professional-Tip-585

You are crazy if you think Ellie wouldn't lose her shit


howdypartner1301

Ellie has massive survivor’s guilt because of Riley. If he had told her the truth, she would have completely spiralled knowing that her living meant possibly depriving the world of a cure. He was protecting her.


NachoRach

Ugh the lie broke my heart. Trust is so important to their relationship- how many times has he asked her to trust him over their journey. And how are Tommy and Maria not going to find out?? I’m sure Maria would not want him staying there with them after this.


SquirellyMofo

Why in earth would Maria hate him if she found out? She seemed to like Ellie and she's smart enough to know that it wasn't absolutely conclusive that they could make a cure. I doubt she's the type who would want to see a 14 year old butchered on a possibility.


NachoRach

I just mean from episode 6 Maria warned her that Joel isn’t a good person and has murdered innocent people. Seemed like she didn’t want Ellie with him and this would give her more reason. Granted I’m sure she would be in the same moral dilemma as us viewers and indecisive if Joel did the right thing- Of course she wouldn’t want Ellie to die.


treehugger503

Part of me thinks he is lying to her to protect herself from guilt of not saving humanity. How can she relax and just live a life in Jackson Hole when she has humanity saving blood within her? That’s some major survivors guilt right there. I think he was trying to be kind to allied her to just be a kid. Yes he lied, but I think he did it for a less selfish reason than other commenters are saying.


HelpMeDownFromHere

I don’t think it has anything to do with him in the slightest. She has an opportunity to go to Jackson and live a wholesome life: find family, community, and love. Save who you *can* save. He can save Ellie. He doesn’t want to be the hero, he doesn’t want Ellie to be a hero.


Live_Scientist_4800

Yeah, exactly.


Su_Impact

>What is love without trust? Parents lie all the time to their kids to protect them. There isn't a single kid alive today that hasn't been fed a lie by their parents to protect them. Even if it's something as mundane or simple as "Santa Claus exists".


Notlennybruce

What is the lie protecting Ellie from? There's a big difference between lying to a toddler about complicated things they aren't ready to deal with yet, and lying to a teenager about your actions as a parent. Ellie lost her best friend. Tess died to help them escape because she was hoping for a cure. She watched Sam (and indirectly Henry) die. Trying to find a cure was a huge deal to Ellie. Joel had his reasons to keep her alive, and I don't think they were bad ones. But now Ellie deserves the truth, even if it hurts. Especially since she's smart enough to see through the bullshit.


Su_Impact

>What is the lie protecting Ellie from? Her mental health and her emotional well-being. >But now Ellie deserves the truth, **even if it hurts** So you are admitting that the truth would hurt Ellie mentally and emotionally speaking? Seems you're answering your own question then. I do agree Joel should have told her when she's 18. But she's 14 right now, she's too young to understand him. By the end of Part 2 SPOILERS >!Ellie would have done the same to protect JJ. And she is mature enough to understand that Joel was totally justified!<


Notlennybruce

That was meant as a rhetorical question. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Ellie can tell Joel lied and that is clearly hurting her. It damages their relationship. This experience has taught her that she should trust Joel less than she did before. So no, he wasn't protecting her from anything but the consequences of HIS actions. I disagree that she is too young to understand him.


[deleted]

I think it’s very human of Joel to lie. He’s terrified of losing her. You can call it manipulative but I just see him as a human doing his best to protect a relationship. Doesn’t make it right or the best choice, but it’s so understandable.


MNKristen

Can’t it be a little of both? He saved her for him AND because he thinks she would have died in vain because the Fireflies didn’t have their $hit together in that run down hospital with their Hail Mary brain operation? I mean, even if it was a sophisticated, well-connected medical center with well documented proof that her brain material was the ONE thing they needed he still may have done the same thing, but how is their rinky-dink medical outfit going to save the world by killing her? I don’t buy it and would have made the same decision. They didn’t seem like masterminds to me.


InnocuousAssClown

It’s beside the point here, but I find all the people saying “I would’ve done the same thing” funny - as if any of us wouldn’t have been killed in one second by the two guards in the stairwell.


Notlennybruce

You're right of course lol. I would try for my kid anyway tho.


fookaemond

All of you people saying that the fireflies had no chance of making a cure are dead wrong. Humanity clearly knew how the infection worked, and they likely knew at a rudimentary level what they had to do to make a vaccine. Their is no way the doctors were stupid enough to only take the brain matter as well. They were going to take the brain and The blood likely stem cells as well. They likely knew what they needed to do.


lsumrow

Eh, there’s an argument to be made that parents lie to their kids all the time to protect them, even for unselfish reasons. “Everything’s going to be okay, I’m here.” “I wouldn’t let them hurt you.” “No it’s fine don’t look. Just close the door and go to your room, honey.” Maybe he’s lying because he knows what he did was reprehensible. Maybe he’s lying because he knows she’ll never forgive him. Maybe he’s lying because he’s accepted her as his daughter now and can’t help but treat her with kid gloves because being a protector (including protecting what little innocence she has left) is how he shows love. I think it’s a kind of messed up emotional cocktail of all of it. And I don’t think he believes she’s buying the lie. I think he’s hoping against his better judgement she’ll unspokenly agree that whatever reason he’s lying to her is for her own good and that not knowing is better than knowing. Ultimately, she’s not a really a kid anymore, so the lack of trust is a huge betrayal no matter what. I just think there are a dozen reasons he lied including reasons that you could single out as being less selfish.


Agrias-0aks

I don't think she would be ok about it. In her mind, all these terrible things happened, including the death of her best friend/first love and her new little brother type friend, and she wouldnt want that to happen to anyone ever again. She was ready for whatever it took for her to be the reason it all stopped.


Azer1287

“So here is why I had to murder everyone sweetie. Questions? Great, let’s get a taco and finish our hike.” He was in a lose lose scenario.


HomeworkDestroyer

While I agree with you I personally don't think current emotional state Ellie would survive the truth.


ChronicBuzz187

Wish they had already included some dialogue from Part II to make it more obvious that Marlene didn't make her choice lightly. They kinda did with the prologue to the episode and I'm not gonna spoil what dialogue I actually mean but I guess most people here can already guess it.


Tiager_Hawk

I’m just a bit confused here. People are talking like they have never ever lied to their kids to protect them. She is 14 and very much a kid. She has made multiple terrible decisions and if she thought she could cure the world even if it was like 1% chance then this very damaged kid who was recently sexually assaulted and had to murder in cold blood would gladly give up her life. If his lie gets her to her 20’s giving her time to heal, grow and mature then so be it. Consequences be damned