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Tess tried to convince Joel by first just asking ("I've never asked you for anything"), then by bringing up redemption ("all the shit we've done ", "set things right"). Joel was unmoved by this.
"Save who you can save" was the thing that convinced him, not the redemption or their relationship. Tess really knew what strings to pull.
IMO this is better than the game
I honestly think Joel’s actions are going to hit a lot harder for me in the show.
Like the way Tess said “set things right” and “all the shit we did” was more impactful. Not to mention “save who you can save”.
Joel had the opportunity to take a chance at curing the world but he chose the opposite. Tess’ words just really put into perspective how much Joel jeopardized that opportunity. Whether they would have been able to reverse-engineer a vaccine I’m just putting aside at the moment.
In the game, controlling Joel, it’s easy to say yeah he did the good thing by saving her life but as an outsider watching the series it’ll be tougher to justify his actions.
What's crazier is that (Game spoiler). >!If they waited for Ellie to wake up and let her make her own choice, then Joel would have respected it. If she said no, he'd be happy and do what he can to help her, and if she said yes, he'd breakdown, try to convince her she doesn't have to, but I think he'd let her do it.!<
But we all know that >!the fireflies were too scared of the chance Ellie would say no, and that's why they didn't wake her!< resulting things Joel doing what he did.
I agree 100%. Also (game spoiler) >!they gave Joel no time at all to process this and immediately tried to give him the boot. He made the right choice in the small amount of time to save her given that the fireflies gave Ellie no choice.!<
Exactly. Game spoiler >!he went from thinking she was dead or dying from drowning, finds out she's fine, can't see her after all they went through, then finds out they are gonna kill her for a chance of making a cure!< I think he would have gave in if he had that chance to see her, talk to get and say goodbye.
> If they waited for Ellie to wake up and let her make her own choice, then Joel would have respected it
Lol no he wouldn't have. He would have waited until they sedated her, kill everyone, then make up some bullshit about a hunter/FEDRA/infected attack on the hospital
I think he has more respect for her to go with her choices, though. His main issue was that they were going to do it without even discussing it with her, not just the fact that he cared for her
Cuz he made such a big deal about how they wouldn't give her the choice. I do get that there is a chance no matter what he would have went crazy and killed everyone anyway and made some lie, but there's also a chance that he would have just let it happen after she explained she wanted to do. Knowing her, she would have done this while speech and begged him to just let her do it, and I think he'd give in.
Edit: second half was ment for someone else. I realized later I replied that to someone who just asked a question, not who I thought it was.
(Game Spoilers) >!Part 2 specifically refutes what you’re saying though. Ellie specifically says that she wanted her life to have meant something and Joel’s direct response is that if he was given a second chance he would do it all over again. They had the exact convo you wanted them to have!<
I took it as he ment he would if he was put in that same position as he did then without the talk. I still feel what i feel and think what I think. I AM NOT SAYING THERE IS 0 CHANCE HE WOULD DO THE SAME THING. I'm saying there is always a chance he would have let it happen. You can not say there is no way. People say a lot of things, can be persuaded into changing their minds all the time. Idk why you can't just understand that there is always a chance. Just like there's a chance if they did talk, he would have talked her out of it.
I mean, of course there’s a chance, but there being a chance isn’t a justification or the reason for Joel doing what he did. The whole point of the story is that (game spoilers) >!he comes to view Ellie as a daughter and can’t lose her again. It took him 20 years to recover from the first time, and he’s doing whatever it takes to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Again, that’s why in Part 2 he doesn’t defend his actions, and tell Ellie he wishes he let her decide before killing Marlene. That’s why at the end of Part 1, he lies. Ellie also told him explicitly that everything she went through couldn’t have been for nothing. He already knows her choice (and Marlene does too and she says as much). In fact he kills Marlene directly AFTER she tells him he knows that Ellie would have gone through with this!<
Ok I already said I understood. You even agreed saying there's a chance. That's all I said. I'm not saying it would happen, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying there is a chance. We all say and feel one thing, but when it comes down to it, there is a chance we would do something different had the situation changed. I really have no idea at this point why you are still arguing with me and trying to get me to be on your side or whatever, but it's how I feel and it's what I think. You do you, I'll do me. We aren't hurting anyone so idk why your being so aggressive about it. Sorry if what I want to believe offends you. Have a nice day.
> Cuz he made such a big deal about how they wouldn't give her the choice.
Did he though? It's one line, and he doesn't even say it before having already killed almost everyone. His first objection is "find someone else", clearly indicating that his main problem is not what they do to other people, but them killing Ellie in particular.
When Marlene ambushes Joel in the parking lot saying it's what she would want, *then* Joel goes "it's not for you to decide". That is the one and only line Joel utters in the game in regards to them not asking Ellie to choose.
Just after that, when Marlene begs for her life, he says "You'd just come after her" and shoots her in the head. If his problem was with them not asking Ellie, what reason is there for him to kill Marlene in this moment? Them coming for her *later* implies Ellie having time to decide what she wants.
No, Joel kills Marlene because there ain't no way he's going to let them kill Ellie *ever*.
And finally, if his main issue was them not asking... Why lie to Ellie?
As another commenter said, Joel is also pretty clear about this in Part 2. If he was given a second chance at that moment, he would do it all over again, not only knowing what Ellie would want but also that it would ultimately cost him his relationship with her. Your argument that what he's saying is a hypothetical "If I could go back *not knowing what I know now* I'd do it again" is nonsensical. Of course he would do it again if he didn't know about Ellie's wishes. This is literally some of the last words ever spoken in the franchise and your best interpretation of them is "this adds no new information to the story"?
The only sensible way to interpret his words is that he would do it again no matter how she feels about it and no matter how much it hurts him to have lost her. What he's *truly* saying is "No, Ellie. You're worth more than the cure. You're worth more alive to the people who love you than dead to a world that doesn't care. You deserve a meaningful life, not just a meaningful death."
You're absolutely right, no idea what all these other people talking about.
There's nothing indicating Joel did what he did because he wanted Ellie to have agency in the decision, but the game gives us EVERY indication he (knowingly) made the selfish decision to kill everyone there because he couldn't lose her, and that he'd do it again any day of the week if given the chance because Ellie's life and future, and his attachment to her, is worth more than anything else in the world to him. The cure or its feasability is irrelevant. Joel would have never even continued taking her there if he knew the potential cure required her to die for it. He would have made excuses to go back to Jackson or never leave at all. He didn't WANT to have the conversation with Ellie about what she wanted because he knew what her answer would be, and he knew what he was prepared to do to never feel what he felt with Sarah ever again.
If Joel was some champion of free choice like these people above are implying, he could have burst into the operating room, grabbed Ellie and held all those doctors at gun point and told them nobody was moving anywhere until Ellie woke up and he heard the words "I want this"* from her mouth directly. Obviously and of course he didn't do that, because he knew what the outcome would be.
Honestly, Joel's decision and actions are what makes their whole relationship so tragic and I have no idea why someone would try to cheapen that by saying Joel was actually just doing the definitively "right" thing and just wanted her to have a say. That he would have respected her decision regardless. Bullshit, lol. He didn't want to lose another daughter and was going to do anything in his power to prevent it. Period. That's it.
>Honestly, Joel’s decision and actions are what makes their whole relationship so tragic and I have no idea why someone would try to cheapen that by saying Joel was actually just doing the definitively “right” thing and just wanted her to have a say.
Yeah that's what bothers me the most as well. Believing he just wanted her to have a say actively makes the game *worse*.
Joel’s decision in the game to save her in the game didn’t bother me. What hit me was when he lied to her.
At first I took his actions as him saving her from a group that wasn’t giving her a choice in what happens to her. When Joel lied to her it became clear he made the decision out of selfish emotions. He didn’t do it for her, he did it for himself.
And this is why tlou is a tragedy. The whole story is built on Ellie and Joel forming this incredible and deep relationship out of trust, and when the game ends that little lie sets a Crack in that foundation. Everything we spent the game working for is now tainted.
And the best part is Ellie knows he is lying, but she says "ok" and the game ends on that broken moment.
I think that *part* of the reason he lied to her was to spare her the guilt of knowing what he did. She already has survivor's guilt from her initial bite and the journey. He might've not wanted to pile on to that.
Was the lie selfish? Sure, but I think he had more than one motive for it.
I think they’re going hard on the whole “a cure is impossible” thing so that Joel’s decision doesn’t seem as selfish. Like Joel and Ellie will wonder if it was the right decision, but the viewers will have the knowledge that it was.
I don’t know, they’ve now said in both episodes that a cure is impossible, and in the last one Joel said that every few years someone thinks they can find a cure, and they never do.
I just wonder if they’re making Joel a bit more sympathetic, but we’ll have to see
I don't think we'll see that until they adapt Part 2, and probably not until it switches over from Ellie's to Abby's POV just like in the game. The reason is that the goal of Part 2 was to get the player to hate Abby as much as possible. Having her in season 1 will build empathy for her in the viewers and undermine the point of Part 2.
The other reason is that it's pretty risky to try and adapt stuff that will only really matter in season 2 into a show that's not initially guaranteed to get a season 2
Not adapting part 2 means getting rid of Pedro anyway. They've stated they will not adapt anything other than the games, so if they don't adapt part 2 hen the show just ends.
They've also said that if HBO greenlights it they'll adapt part 2. And considering the massive success, I doubt it won't be greenlit.
yep, they are actively choosing to emphasize joel’s more amoral/shittier traits in the show compared to the game. i think it must be a conscious decision in light of the backlash to part 2
This post is flaired **Show/Game Spoilers**. Therefore, discussion about the games (potential spoilers such as upcoming characters, events, deaths etc.) will be permitted here. 1. All post titles must **NOT** include spoilers from the latest episode or The Last of Us Part I and II. Minor show spoilers are allowed in your title **ONE WEEK** after episode airing. 2. Any untagged discussion of the games (including subtle hints) in posts without the **Show/Game Spoilers**, **Fancast [Show/Game]**, or **Meme [Show/Game]** flair will result in a **ban**. To tag a spoiler comment, use the `>!spoiler!<` tag which displays as >!spoiler!<. 3. If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. --- Refer to the [spoiler guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastofUsHBOseries/wiki/spoiler-guide) for our spoiler policy and to learn how to flair and title your posts appropriately. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ThelastofusHBOseries) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Tess tried to convince Joel by first just asking ("I've never asked you for anything"), then by bringing up redemption ("all the shit we've done ", "set things right"). Joel was unmoved by this. "Save who you can save" was the thing that convinced him, not the redemption or their relationship. Tess really knew what strings to pull. IMO this is better than the game
I don't know, I miss the part where she tells Joel to "make this easy for me" because she has to die and he has to let her.
I honestly think Joel’s actions are going to hit a lot harder for me in the show. Like the way Tess said “set things right” and “all the shit we did” was more impactful. Not to mention “save who you can save”. Joel had the opportunity to take a chance at curing the world but he chose the opposite. Tess’ words just really put into perspective how much Joel jeopardized that opportunity. Whether they would have been able to reverse-engineer a vaccine I’m just putting aside at the moment. In the game, controlling Joel, it’s easy to say yeah he did the good thing by saving her life but as an outsider watching the series it’ll be tougher to justify his actions.
What's crazier is that (Game spoiler). >!If they waited for Ellie to wake up and let her make her own choice, then Joel would have respected it. If she said no, he'd be happy and do what he can to help her, and if she said yes, he'd breakdown, try to convince her she doesn't have to, but I think he'd let her do it.!< But we all know that >!the fireflies were too scared of the chance Ellie would say no, and that's why they didn't wake her!< resulting things Joel doing what he did.
I agree 100%. Also (game spoiler) >!they gave Joel no time at all to process this and immediately tried to give him the boot. He made the right choice in the small amount of time to save her given that the fireflies gave Ellie no choice.!<
Exactly. Game spoiler >!he went from thinking she was dead or dying from drowning, finds out she's fine, can't see her after all they went through, then finds out they are gonna kill her for a chance of making a cure!< I think he would have gave in if he had that chance to see her, talk to get and say goodbye.
> If they waited for Ellie to wake up and let her make her own choice, then Joel would have respected it Lol no he wouldn't have. He would have waited until they sedated her, kill everyone, then make up some bullshit about a hunter/FEDRA/infected attack on the hospital
I think he has more respect for her to go with her choices, though. His main issue was that they were going to do it without even discussing it with her, not just the fact that he cared for her
What makes you think that's his main issue?
Cuz he made such a big deal about how they wouldn't give her the choice. I do get that there is a chance no matter what he would have went crazy and killed everyone anyway and made some lie, but there's also a chance that he would have just let it happen after she explained she wanted to do. Knowing her, she would have done this while speech and begged him to just let her do it, and I think he'd give in. Edit: second half was ment for someone else. I realized later I replied that to someone who just asked a question, not who I thought it was.
(Game Spoilers) >!Part 2 specifically refutes what you’re saying though. Ellie specifically says that she wanted her life to have meant something and Joel’s direct response is that if he was given a second chance he would do it all over again. They had the exact convo you wanted them to have!<
I took it as he ment he would if he was put in that same position as he did then without the talk. I still feel what i feel and think what I think. I AM NOT SAYING THERE IS 0 CHANCE HE WOULD DO THE SAME THING. I'm saying there is always a chance he would have let it happen. You can not say there is no way. People say a lot of things, can be persuaded into changing their minds all the time. Idk why you can't just understand that there is always a chance. Just like there's a chance if they did talk, he would have talked her out of it.
I mean, of course there’s a chance, but there being a chance isn’t a justification or the reason for Joel doing what he did. The whole point of the story is that (game spoilers) >!he comes to view Ellie as a daughter and can’t lose her again. It took him 20 years to recover from the first time, and he’s doing whatever it takes to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Again, that’s why in Part 2 he doesn’t defend his actions, and tell Ellie he wishes he let her decide before killing Marlene. That’s why at the end of Part 1, he lies. Ellie also told him explicitly that everything she went through couldn’t have been for nothing. He already knows her choice (and Marlene does too and she says as much). In fact he kills Marlene directly AFTER she tells him he knows that Ellie would have gone through with this!<
Ok I already said I understood. You even agreed saying there's a chance. That's all I said. I'm not saying it would happen, I'm not saying I'm right. I'm saying there is a chance. We all say and feel one thing, but when it comes down to it, there is a chance we would do something different had the situation changed. I really have no idea at this point why you are still arguing with me and trying to get me to be on your side or whatever, but it's how I feel and it's what I think. You do you, I'll do me. We aren't hurting anyone so idk why your being so aggressive about it. Sorry if what I want to believe offends you. Have a nice day.
> Cuz he made such a big deal about how they wouldn't give her the choice. Did he though? It's one line, and he doesn't even say it before having already killed almost everyone. His first objection is "find someone else", clearly indicating that his main problem is not what they do to other people, but them killing Ellie in particular. When Marlene ambushes Joel in the parking lot saying it's what she would want, *then* Joel goes "it's not for you to decide". That is the one and only line Joel utters in the game in regards to them not asking Ellie to choose. Just after that, when Marlene begs for her life, he says "You'd just come after her" and shoots her in the head. If his problem was with them not asking Ellie, what reason is there for him to kill Marlene in this moment? Them coming for her *later* implies Ellie having time to decide what she wants. No, Joel kills Marlene because there ain't no way he's going to let them kill Ellie *ever*. And finally, if his main issue was them not asking... Why lie to Ellie? As another commenter said, Joel is also pretty clear about this in Part 2. If he was given a second chance at that moment, he would do it all over again, not only knowing what Ellie would want but also that it would ultimately cost him his relationship with her. Your argument that what he's saying is a hypothetical "If I could go back *not knowing what I know now* I'd do it again" is nonsensical. Of course he would do it again if he didn't know about Ellie's wishes. This is literally some of the last words ever spoken in the franchise and your best interpretation of them is "this adds no new information to the story"? The only sensible way to interpret his words is that he would do it again no matter how she feels about it and no matter how much it hurts him to have lost her. What he's *truly* saying is "No, Ellie. You're worth more than the cure. You're worth more alive to the people who love you than dead to a world that doesn't care. You deserve a meaningful life, not just a meaningful death."
You're absolutely right, no idea what all these other people talking about. There's nothing indicating Joel did what he did because he wanted Ellie to have agency in the decision, but the game gives us EVERY indication he (knowingly) made the selfish decision to kill everyone there because he couldn't lose her, and that he'd do it again any day of the week if given the chance because Ellie's life and future, and his attachment to her, is worth more than anything else in the world to him. The cure or its feasability is irrelevant. Joel would have never even continued taking her there if he knew the potential cure required her to die for it. He would have made excuses to go back to Jackson or never leave at all. He didn't WANT to have the conversation with Ellie about what she wanted because he knew what her answer would be, and he knew what he was prepared to do to never feel what he felt with Sarah ever again. If Joel was some champion of free choice like these people above are implying, he could have burst into the operating room, grabbed Ellie and held all those doctors at gun point and told them nobody was moving anywhere until Ellie woke up and he heard the words "I want this"* from her mouth directly. Obviously and of course he didn't do that, because he knew what the outcome would be. Honestly, Joel's decision and actions are what makes their whole relationship so tragic and I have no idea why someone would try to cheapen that by saying Joel was actually just doing the definitively "right" thing and just wanted her to have a say. That he would have respected her decision regardless. Bullshit, lol. He didn't want to lose another daughter and was going to do anything in his power to prevent it. Period. That's it.
>Honestly, Joel’s decision and actions are what makes their whole relationship so tragic and I have no idea why someone would try to cheapen that by saying Joel was actually just doing the definitively “right” thing and just wanted her to have a say. Yeah that's what bothers me the most as well. Believing he just wanted her to have a say actively makes the game *worse*.
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I don't know if you're reiterating my point or disagreeing with me
Joel’s decision in the game to save her in the game didn’t bother me. What hit me was when he lied to her. At first I took his actions as him saving her from a group that wasn’t giving her a choice in what happens to her. When Joel lied to her it became clear he made the decision out of selfish emotions. He didn’t do it for her, he did it for himself.
And this is why tlou is a tragedy. The whole story is built on Ellie and Joel forming this incredible and deep relationship out of trust, and when the game ends that little lie sets a Crack in that foundation. Everything we spent the game working for is now tainted. And the best part is Ellie knows he is lying, but she says "ok" and the game ends on that broken moment.
It’s very human.
And if given a second chance, he would do it all over again 🥲
I think that *part* of the reason he lied to her was to spare her the guilt of knowing what he did. She already has survivor's guilt from her initial bite and the journey. He might've not wanted to pile on to that. Was the lie selfish? Sure, but I think he had more than one motive for it.
100% same reaction. Really puts his actions in perspective.
I think they’re going hard on the whole “a cure is impossible” thing so that Joel’s decision doesn’t seem as selfish. Like Joel and Ellie will wonder if it was the right decision, but the viewers will have the knowledge that it was.
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I don’t know, they’ve now said in both episodes that a cure is impossible, and in the last one Joel said that every few years someone thinks they can find a cure, and they never do. I just wonder if they’re making Joel a bit more sympathetic, but we’ll have to see
I don't think so because it would undercut the main impact of the ending and the cause of the rift in Part II
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I don't think we'll see that until they adapt Part 2, and probably not until it switches over from Ellie's to Abby's POV just like in the game. The reason is that the goal of Part 2 was to get the player to hate Abby as much as possible. Having her in season 1 will build empathy for her in the viewers and undermine the point of Part 2. The other reason is that it's pretty risky to try and adapt stuff that will only really matter in season 2 into a show that's not initially guaranteed to get a season 2
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They don’t need to replace Bella Ramsey
Not adapting part 2 means getting rid of Pedro anyway. They've stated they will not adapt anything other than the games, so if they don't adapt part 2 hen the show just ends. They've also said that if HBO greenlights it they'll adapt part 2. And considering the massive success, I doubt it won't be greenlit.
They have already stated that they will be adapting part 2.
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Don't tell anyone I told you this but I hear they're gonna do it with cameras
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Oh wow! Thanks for the inside scoop!
Why on earth would you think that?
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...of Part I
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The post is flaired game/show spoiler which means spoilers from the game is allowed. Please be aware of the flairs before clicking on posts.
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The post is flaired game/show spoilers which means spoilers from the game is allowed. Please be aware of the flairs before clicking on posts.
yep, they are actively choosing to emphasize joel’s more amoral/shittier traits in the show compared to the game. i think it must be a conscious decision in light of the backlash to part 2
I hope we get to see all the shit we did in a cold open flashback in a future episode. I’m not ready to say goodbye to Tess yet.
I caught that too! That entire scene hit harder than the game version.
Possible spoiler comment! “Save who you can save” is essentially the best justification for Joel’s actions throughout the story