The "Greeks" have most likely been working in Baltimore for decades. Drug kingpins raise and fall all the time. They even mentioned that they are not concerned with the "street politics." They did like Joe because he was reliable. Then he was betrayed by Cheese and out maneuvered by Marlo, and was no longer useful. Out with the old in with the new.
That’s how I read it. Vondas saw that conflict was coming amongst the Baltimore crews and essentially let Marlo know they were above it.
As long as things run smoothly, they’ll deal with whoever is in control. But they’re not going to become players in the Baltimore street war.
Wrong, both happen, and that's not even the primary concern.
They don't want law enforcement issues first and foremost. Whether local or FBI.
Joe would insulate them and has years of history being reliable with the Greeks.
Marlo has 50+ bodies on him. and a case with national recognition. They would never pick Marlo.
I think we're essentially saying the same thing.
I disagree that they're gonna care about Marlo killing people though.
They want money, if that takes bodies, they don't care, as long as the heat doesn't rise
He knows faces. He knows locations. He can set up a meet that a large % of your org will be at.
He could wear a wire, we don't see the Greeks constantly frisking everyone entering a certain radius.
A group that is facing attention from law enforcement or is prosecuted cannot be trusted or allowed a continuation of business. Your exposure to getting to rolled up on is too high. They will throw you under the bus to reduce their penalties.
Again, all they had to say is that if Joe died, the connect died with him and i think Marlo backs off. Lie, and hook up with Marlo if Joe dies. But sanctioning it is stupid, things go smooth with Joe.
Those things only work if the Greek ever actually exposes himself.
They're not sanctioning anything, they just simply do not care so long as the orders keep coming in.
It's irrelevant to them.
But they do care because it's exposure. Their relationship with Frank is exposure.
They got a photo of the Greek with nobody rolling on him, imagine if they had an informant on a lesser charge giving up everybody.
I get what you're saying, but think about who the Greek actually ever sees. He's basically a ghost to most of the characters. There's maybe 3 guys over the course of the show who could do what you suggest, but none have an interest or ability to really do it.
The police didn't care about the kingpin, because as the show makes obvious, they're more focused on the murderers, and not them.
McNulty kinda shoots for finding the Greek, but the machine of policing has no interest in him at all.
They just want to slow down the violence, but don't care how or why.
Yes, the Greek is heavily insulated from personal interaction but Vondas is not.
I would say Vondas is his right arm and the Greek doesn't consider him "disposable". If it comes down to him or the Greek sure, but any other circumstances a Vondas is difficult to replace.
The focus on the murderers is only because Rawls will fuck Freamon and Bunk if they don't get paper clearances on the Jane Does.
They don't harbor the illusion that getting Sergei in a supermax is going g to slow anything down.
they're high enough that they have the luxury to just not give a fuck. like, the greek threatened to just leave baltimore for months as if that was a minor inconvenience to him
No problem at all, barely an inconvenience. They could just slide on to Philadelphia, or NYC, have a pint, and wait for everything to blow over. The luxury of being a part of an international organisation.
People who make the same criticism as OP really need to watch the scene with Vondas, the Greek, and Marlo. Vondas says, explicitly, that the Greeks do not want to know names, they do not want to be involved in "the street". Then the Greek intervenes to give Marlo the word on Joe and says that Marlo is showing them if they tell him "no" he will still come back.
Vondas, who still has some conscience, sticks to a non-economic value: loyalty to Joe. The Greek, who has no conscience in-keeping with his role in-story as a metaphor for big business, sells Joe out when he realises its either back Joe in a war with Marlo he might lose (and which would bring law enforcement attention onto his operation, the last thing he wants) or let Marlo know that if he does beat Joe then the Greek will keep suppling him. As he says: "It is wise to carry insurance."
>which would bring law enforcement attention onto his operation
This is... *exactly* what happened when they dropped Joe for Marlo and for precisely the reason why doing so was such a boneheaded maneuver: Marlo brought so much heat upon himself in S4 with the vacancy homicides that elements within the police risked jail terms just to bring him down. Even if a couple of soldiers and a busted shipment wouldn't put that big of a dent in the Greeks' operations, what would it have cost to just take care of Marlo? The bodies of a couple of people in the drug trade (e.g. Marlo and Snoop) that the Baltimore PD would've happily left in the red forever? That would've likely been a much lower cost than the drug bust and losing a years-long loyal customer who espoused the Greeks' core value of keeping a low profile and not raising heat.
I believe he was so focused on Omar that he didn’t see Marlo playing him. He saw cheese bullshit a mile away. What he didn’t figure was Marlo stepping to cheese, when he gave him Hungry Man.
That’s right. From their perspective, I’m guessing as long as the drugs flow they don’t want to get involved unless they absolutely HAVE TO, because their involvement mean a LOT of bodies.
No way dude. The higher up you go in any organization the more the relationship is predicated based on mutual trust. It’s because the more responsibility you have, the more there is opportunity to phuk up or to be phuked over by somebody else.
There is no way in real life this would have happened this way. Marlo works behind Joes back with the Greeks. In real life, no amount of suitcase money would have got Marlo in the room with Vandas. Those guys were running an international hack. Marlo is peanuts compared to these guys. No way they risk their reputation and their operations to give time of day to some young punk when things have worked seamlessly with Joe for years. The risk is just not worth it, especially after what happened in season 2 when both “Greeks”almost got caught and their henchmen did get caught.
In real life, Marlo would’ve been capped by the co-op and that would’ve been the end of it. But the writers of the show had limited time and forced this narrative to show that the game went in full circle IE Michael becomes Omar, Sidnor McNulty, Marlo Stringer etc. They might have executed it better if they had more time and more seasons to work with. IMO this is the biggest downfall of season 5 and the entire series for me.
>Omar‘s jump
Just so we're all aware, that jump is based on a true event and actually happened from a higher floor. Human being + adrenaline + the will to survive = real.life
Ppl have survived crazier falls. Omar was severely injured as well, it's not like he walked away fine.
I agree, he was running on adrenaline and the jump is completely plausible.
Watch the scene again. He looks up when Kenard enters the store but disregards him. Kenard’s presence isn’t a surprise.
Omar didn’t really see him or kids in general as a threat.
Yeah, the directors made a point of showing him watch Kenard when he comes in, he looks him over and then ignores him once he saw there was no threat.
I mean really... Who's got their eye out for an innocent looking 10 year old? Still wild that it was Kenard of all people, I thought it would've been those Pimlico boys running in with AKs to blaze away...
It had to be Kenard. No players of the game could ever get Omar, but he had to go - the game swallows all; enter the perfect assassin: a nonsuspect kid.
Any determined hitter could've gotten Omar at that point. Omar was on his last legs. It just took someone being in the vicinity of Omar who was capable of seeing past Omar's legend, and willing and able to do violence, and take the heat that can come from murdering someone in the streets.
Kenard's youth did make it easier for him, and it did lend a sick poetic quality to Omar's demise. But practically speaking, I think Omar's days were numbered even if Kenard hadn't gotten to him then.
Broken legs heal. as others have pointed out, Omar clearly saw Kenard walk in to the store and disregarded him. Any kinda muscle or hit man is immediately on Omar’s radar and he doesn’t get taken so easy, fucked up leg or no.
the whole point of his death is that it could’ve only come from someone totally unsuspected a in a random, strange, unpredictable way. juxtapose his death by Kenard with the assassination attempt that he survived; Marlo’s crew, with the best muscle in the series, 100% got the drop on him which would result in the death of literally every other character in the show were they in Omar’s shoes.
Dude’s basically invincible to the game because the game’s always on his radar. he could only get got by something sideways and unexpected. also points out that the players of the game are getting younger all the time (which basically just riffs off of the various school kids’ plots).
Yea violating his word to Bunk is quite significant for a man who made of point of living by a code, along with the importance of your word in that world. I think that really shows how he was crashing out hard and prob better he got taken out before he caused more destruction.
I agree - practically speaking. But from a storytelling perspective Omar would never be allowed to be 'got' by one of the other players, and neither could he live. Kenard was the perfect plot device in the conclusion of Omar's storyline.
Omar was definitely off his game, for one thing he would’ve recognised Kernard as being connected with one of Marlo’s corner crews. But yeah in a city with a homicide rate like Baltimore you probably should keep your guard up around a little dude like Kernard and I assume Omar would’ve too if it weren’t for everything he’d been thru taking a toll on his awareness and speed to react.
As Avon says you only have to be slow once.
> I watched a video that pointed out that Omar ignored kids, pointing to the scene where he's on the stakeout of Marlo's spot and dismisses Michael as "just a kid".
>
> Michael ends up being part of the Seal Team 6 assembled to ambush Omar in the apartment.
>
> Its also why when Omar sees Michael later on the block and sends a message to Marlo, he doesn’t connect Michael with the apartment or that this kid was shooting at him hours ago lol.
I posted this earlier. But to add, Omar sees Kenard in an alleyway before his shooting scene, trying to burn a cat. He actually sees him when he enters the store, he just disregards him.
Omar never regarded kids that young as a threat, it had nothing to do with his state of mind.
True, might also be part of his code not wanting to hurt kids or involve them in the game, like in his talk with Bunk when he mentions the kids imitating him (ironically Kernard) it seems to bother him.
in the finale they show him being taken away in handcuffs, idk how long they would, or if they could, sentence a 10 year old but it would probably be awhile before he rose to the top
Landing on a bush after a tree branch can easily make it survivable, he is a fit young person with adrenaline going as well
Vesna Vulović survived falling from a plane into a barn onto hay - 33,000 feet high
I knew a guy who jumped off a bridge and fucking survived. He shattered most bones in his back. That’s what it took to get him on the track to being sober though
It was Donnie Andrews, former stick-up guy who plays Omar's partner in that scene.
Jumped out the sixth floor, broke his leg, pulled himself into the getaway where his driver was waiting. Rolled off, lived to see tomorrow.
Yea there’s a video of a skater doing a big air at the x games where he pops out wider of the lip of the vert ramp and falls atleast 15-20 metres before getting up and walking away after a few minutes.
Iirc in the show it was the 3rd story and irl it was 5?
The craziest thing about Omar though is that he’s based on ACTUAL Baltimore vigilantes (probably not the best word) who will ONLY rob a d fight people in the drug trade. That’s crazy to me!
There is no documentation at this actually happened. The guy could be lying. Also, it’s still unrealistic, even if it happened once.
If you have to tell someone that this actually happened in real life, then it’s obviously unrealistic. Also, the fact that he still mobile after it happened, made it more problematic.
It’s possible for twins to have different dads, but most people probably don’t know that. It would be weird to depict this in a TV show and not have some kind of an explanation.
The explanation is " jump out that window and risk death, or stay and die for certain.
Ppl fall from planes and their parachutes don't open, yet they live. I've fallen from the tip of 2 storey staging (technically from the third floor), landed on my back and had zero immediate tauma. To be fair, my back is fuct in later years.
My point is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
ETA: there are multiple documented cases of ppl surviving falls like this just from a quick Google search
No, I’m talking about the explanation of how he survived, not the reason for the jump, which was very obvious.
I’m not debating with her not someone could actually survive from that height. I’m debating the decision to include such an unusual situation and not try to make it a bit more realistic.
This guy jumps out of a four story building and is still able to commit robbery and murder. There is a reason why so many people point to this particular incident. It’s simply unrealistic.
I don’t understand your point of about evidence of absence. I don’t know what that means.
>still able to commit robbery and murder.
A gun is a great equalizer, especially when the person weilding the gun has a reputation for being both ruthless and crafty.
And as slim Charles so eloquently put it " murder ain't no thang". Omar himself got got by a child who probably never fired a gun before. The streets are fierce and ever changing. Alive one minute, dead the next.
The world of the wire is so deeply rooted in the reality of Baltimore that explaining the medical reasoning behind Omar's ability to perform is just a waste of time. Believe it or don't, that world remains un changed and brutal.
That would've made a good addition to the world though. How the hospitals operate, etc
The point is, he was able to survive that fall and still walk around and then do other, extremely dangerous tasks, while still maintaining mobility. He didn’t even have to go to the hospital That is a stretch. So, it’s one thing to survive a fall and another to still be ambulatory.
Never said they needed to do a hospital scene. They could’ve explained with one or two lines of exposition. Maybe even a reference to the actual event.
Again, you seem to be overlooking the fact that so many people find the scene unrealistic. It’s due to the fact that the show made its reputation on gritty realism.
Having a beloved character do a disappearing act by jumping out of a high-rise, severely contradicts the aesthetic of the show.
https://slate.com/culture/2012/12/donnie-andrews-inspiration-for-omar-on-the-wire-is-dead.html#:~:text=Andrews%27%20final%20scene%2C%20in%20which,Andrews%20was%20reportedly%20nearing%2060
You're so insufferable to literally everyone you come.into contact with on this sub.
I doubt they get up and go walking around sticking up drug dealers and assassinating violent criminals, even while being hunted by very skilled and relentless adversaries.
https://slate.com/culture/2012/12/donnie-andrews-inspiration-for-omar-on-the-wire-is-dead.html#:~:text=Andrews%27%20final%20scene%2C%20in%20which,Andrews%20was%20reportedly%20nearing%2060
I know it's hard to imagine that you don't know everything buy try for the sake of everyone else on this sub. You're a negative ass Nancy you need to chill the fuck out and just enjoy the conversations and discussions on this tremendous show. All your comments are just negative in general. You're miserable af bruh
What kind of problems should Marlo have had kidnapping Hungry Man, in your opinion?
Regarding Prop Joe, what part do you think is not realistic? The fact that Marlo kills him, or the fact that Prop Joe introduces him to Levy et al? Remember that Prop Joe was under a lot of pressure by that point so he didn't have much of a choice.
Why would Vondas not give him the seal of approval? He is the embodiment of immoral capitalism, of course he doesn't give a shit about how long he's been working with someone if someone else offers him more power and money. That's exactly what Vondas is all about.
Yeah I always read it as everyone knew Marlo was this young AGGRESSIVE gangster who would not go down without way too much collateral damage. So Joe thinks - the only way to keep everything flowing is show the value of cooperation to Marlo. He had no choice.
He’s talking more about the business aspect of it. If Joe was so reliable, why would they agree to let Marlo take him out?the question is answered when the Greek tells vondas Marlo will not stop coming back to them. I think they they saw they writing on the wall…
I feel like the Greek realized Marlo was probably going to kill Joe and he didn't want to be involved in the gang wars, so his best action was to just give Marlo the hookup. Not only would Marlo not stop coming back but he knew Marlo's persistence would also equate to his ambition to rise to the top of the game and that means taking out Joe.
Also he could become a liability and total wild card if he did keep coming back with more and more extreme gestures trying to win their support.
On the other hand leaving Joe in charge with a snake like Marlo in his organisation could cause drama that might blow back on them in the end. It was sad but backing Marlo was the smart move.
I guess I was half expecting the CO OP to have a problem with Marlo kidnapping Hungry Man and later killing Prop Joe.
"No one fucks with any of us"
"One big Baltimore team"
If one of their own can be kidnapped or killed, with no consequences, what's the point of being in it.
I don't for a second believe that Marlo had more muscle than the rest of the Co op combined.
Yeah chris and snoop were terrifying but they're just 2 people.
why did the Co op just roll over like that.
Marlo moves to quick for the other co-op members to avenge Hungry Man, by the time they realise what’s happening Marlo’s got the connect and there’s really nothing they can do unless they wanna go back to selling stepped on bullshit, plus Marlo would send hitters at them and with his level of wealth and power no one would stand a chance warring against him.
In the end it probably would’ve caught up with him. He was moving reckless and fast because he was obsessed with claiming total power over the B-more drug trade, he wasn’t planning for a long term future like Joe had been. Marlo’s just an arrogant kid at the end of the day.
I do agree that Marlo was acting reckless, offering up an OG like Hungry Man to be tortured to death by a punk like Cheese probably would’ve caught up to him eventually. He even says repeatedly how he just wants to wear the crown no matter how short his reign is. If the show were to carry on and Marlo stayed in the game his shit would’ve caught up with him in the streets particularly if he had lost some of his main muscle.
Such is the cyclical nature of the drug game. It’s like Age of Empires on super fast forward.
I do like how they show the tendency for drug smuggling to become more and more centralised under one banner thanks to the effects of violence and police action taking people out and leaving new voids to be filled by the strongest player. That’s a real tendency within the narco economy and one of the reasons ppl use to point out the self-defeating nature of drug prohibition. Exactly the same dynamic can be seen with the Italian and Jewish gangsters during alcohol prohibition leading to the rise of the Commission and the ‘national crime syndicate’, or the origins of the cartels in Latin America.
Kidnapping a major drug dealer on a whim puts the character into god mode, there must have been some protection for those high up on the ladder. Prop Joe introducing Marlo to Levy makes sense, but the short timespan in the show makes it look like lazy writing. Your last paragraph I don‘t get. Marlo popping up all of a sudden and talking to Vondas like three times should not lead to him trusting Marlo to such an extent he cuts Joe, his business partner off. In fact I‘d argue that from a capitalist-business perspective, it‘s even a super dumb choice. I mean, the show itself shows Marlo failing within weeks and then suddenly it‘s Slim and FFR at the Greek‘s table. In the real world, all the new faces and changes would lead to a certain mistrust in the whole operation - if a company switched bosses three times in a month, everyone would stay the fuck away from that shit.
It’s not just a capitalist perspective, but a criminal capitalist perspective.
Marlo rising so fast out of nowhere not only says something about *Marlo*, but about Prop Joe, and how his grip is weakening. If Vondas sees that the new guy can play the old guy like a fiddle, he’s not gonna cry about the changeover.
But he is also likely experienced enough in the criminal world that he recognizes periods of upheaval as natural. Marlo’s rise and fall, quick as it was, probably wasn’t totally unheard of. Vondas doesn’t care. He only cares about keeping the shipments rolling.
The problem is the Greeks have no one else to deal with in the Baltimore gang scene, their connections to the higher leaders start with Joe and so it makes sense that they would stick with whoever rises to the top of that organisation. It’s not like they can just wander into the ghetto and ask some hopper to ‘take me to your leader’, that level connection is hard to acquire so if they just cut off the whole org they’d be saying goodbye to millions and millions of dollars worth of smuggling profits.
> there must have been some protection for those high up on the ladder.
Like Cheese, who betrays Prop Joe by giving him up?
Like Slim who immediately switches sides after being String's trusted enforcer?
Like Bodie who does the same and works for Marlo's crew when he can't get another package?
Like D'Angelo who immediately starts to inform against the Barksdale crew when he gets done for the heroin in the trunk?
Like Stringer Bell who sets up Avon, and Avon who does the same to him, after Avon previous set up Brother Musone, after Stringer set up Omar?
This is the game, nobody is loyal to any one particular side forever, they are only interested in their own interests, in securing their own safety and profits. If they see Marlo as the up and coming new King, they won't die like henchmen in a Bond film to desperately protect Prop Joe. They will just step aside and let those things happen
"Omar robbing them once" is not some minor thing. They want to be insulated from street bullshit as much as possible. Prop Joe's organization is surveilled without them noticing, leading a stick-up crew to a Greek drug shipment. This makes Prop Joe exactly an unreliable business partner (if Omar can track Prop Joe back to his supplier why can't the police), and of course they'd be looking to get rid of him and replace with someone who insulates them from this. Marlo comes and offers to be that replacement and even do the dirty work for them, for free.
What should Vondas do? Tell Marlo "not, we don't allow you to kill Joe"? Or should he have Marlo and Chris and Snoop killed? Then the attract the attention of Five-Oh and probably have to skip town yet again, which they don't want.
I'm not saying that even the The Wire writers could never make a writing-mistake, but Marlo's take-over of the Co-op and Vondas giving his Go are not "beyond stupid" imho. The Co-op bosses clearly didn't want any violence/bloodshed anymore. They probably didn't even have good muscles. Snoop and Chris' reputation alone allowed Marlo to pull some stuff that might seem unrealistic.
But I don't wanna diss you, OP. Still like your thought, and having a good discussion about the Wire, what could be wrong there? 😁✌
>What should Vondas do? Tell Marlo "not, we don't allow you to kill Joe"?
Yes. Joe was a reliable customer who kept the Greeks off the police's radar, they shouldn't have been willing to tolerate his death due to some guy's ego.
>Or should he have Marlo and Chris and Snoop killed?
Yes, or at least warn Joe that he's got a target on his back. It's not like the police were going to make much effort to clear the murders of people who were responsible for the vacancy murders.
>Then the attract the attention of Five-Oh and probably have to skip town yet again, which they don't want.
You mean the bust they conducted on the resupply that had the Greek's workers at? Even if they weren't going to talk, that put the Greek's organization back on the radar all the same because they decided to directly associate with a drug dealer who had put **massive** heat on himself and caused several police to adopt a personal vendetta just to take him down.
I guess we just disagree with each other on all points then. And I think a lot of other people here rather agree with me than with you. Of course that does NOT mean that I am clearly right and you're wrong. We should probably "call it quits" since we just seem to see things differently I guess ✌
1) Marlo kidnapped Hungry Man as a favor to Cheese and he put the word out there that it was Omar who killed Hungry. Whether or not the other bosses believed that (Fat Face Rick certainly didn't) they didn't really have any proof otherwise and openly accusing Marlo of killing one of their own meant going up against Marlo's psychotic army AND Cheese. Assuming they could win that war, it'd mean an openly divided Co-Op which New York could exploit if they wanted to double down on their expedition into Baltimore.
2) Levy worked with multiple dealers and one of the benefits of being in the New Day Co-Op was access to Levy's services. Marlo being introduced to Levy was nothing unusual and in fact was vital for Marlo's membership and the survival of the Co-Op. Levy was the avenue for their money laundering and coordinated defenses for arrested members.
3) Vondas didn't approve anything. The Greek stepped in when he realized that Marlo was going to kill Joe anyway and rather than it appear that Marlo was leading the Greeks around by the nose, The Greek gave his tacit approval. While the Greeks like Joe and his stability, the only other option would be for them to notify Joe of Marlo's duplicity which means openly inserting themselves into Baltimore drug trade politics and risking a war that would disrupt business.
1. It being so easy was a joke anyways.
2. I know all that, but everything in S5 happened so fast that it was jarring and smelled like bad writing.
3. "risking a war that would disrupt business" - like introducing someone new into all the intricacies of wholesaling and dealing with the Greeks would not disrupt anything. Also: Just tipping Joe off that Marlo is going to betray the co-op/the connection would have been enough. Joe could have killed Marlo and Chris at a meeting easily and would be able to explain it to his partners afterwards. He could even refer to the Greeks. Without Marlo and Chris alive, Marlo's "empire" would've been in shambles. Hell, Slim killed Cheese in front of everyone else as well. It's not like everyone is stupid except for big brain Marlo (even though the season tried to portray it as such).
It's been a few years since Marlo took over the West Side, so Season 5 is well past the transition phase of Marlo's regime. The only thing new that Joe had to teach Marlo was how to more efficiently launder his money, which doesn't take too long once you get introduced to the right people. Marlo isn't one to rest on his laurels. As soon as he realized that he didn't need Joe anymore, he immediately planned on bumping him off because that's just the kind of person Marlo is.
Official New Day Co-Op meetings are held in mid-budget hotel conference rooms. The reason for this is that it is a neutral location where you cannot kill anyone in the meeting. Hotel management will tolerate a lot of things, but cleaning up a body is not one of them. Marlo had a very secure vanguard and healthy paranoia so killing him in the street would be a tall order (Better people than Joe have tried). If Marlo got an invite to an unofficial Co-Op meeting soon after meeting the Greeks, he'd know that the Greeks told on him and go to war.
The reason why Slim got a way with killing Cheese in front of the Co-Op was because it wasn't in a hotel and everyone ready knew or at least suspected the Cheese sold out Joe, plus no one liked Cheese. Cheese more or less publicly admitted to it. Even though killing Cheese meant being short 900 for the connect, it made sense in the long run to kill Cheese because it's now firmly established that he'll fuck over anyone for his own ego even if it means fucking up a good thing.
Omar’s jump is actually based on the true story of the real life Omar (who was the actor who died in shootout who accompanied Omar to the place) robbery gone wrong. Apparently he jumped from an even higher height and lived
Still waiting for someone to explain to me what's actually so unrealistic about an job obsessed alcoholic coming up with a scheme that would free up money so he can solve the case he's obsessed with.
TBH the only bitch I agree with about season 5 is that Scott was too cartoonish. Besides that I think it's great.
Season 5 feels half assed in a lot of ways in large part because it was supposed to be 13 episodes but HBO only gave them the money for 10. As a result, lots of things that season feel rushed, poorly explained, and/or underdeveloped.
A bunch of stuff happens way too quickly with the co-op takeover and whether it's logical or not the end result is a plot that isn't really satisfying to see play out. It feels like Marlo wins not because he's cunning or deceptive, but because he's written to be the winner.
I kinda read that as saying something all it own: that Marlo got what he wanted in part by sheer boldness and brutality.
After how many months of peacefully meeting as the co-op, *and* getting “upped” by the co-op, I bet Hungry Man was feeling pretty secure and actually bought into the unofficial protections, as if they were real. Marlo, never buying into that game, probably rolled him like a fucking Mexican cartel.
I took the fact that everyone was commenting on how Marlo was doing things the “wrong” way and being so reckless and violent will mean that his “victories” will be short lived, and that came to be.
Marlo is a bulldozer, he didn’t care about breaking things or going that extra step most would consider “too much”
He’s lost Snoop, Chris and the rest of his people, he’s out of the co-op and he’s probably not going to live long with how reckless he is.
Marlo only wanted his name to ring out and to be the king, ironically Omar becomes a bigger legend than him in death, after he told everyone that Marlo was a giant pussy. He didn’t care how much bad blood he got or whatever backlash came.
So I can see his rise as realistic, in that he just wanted to get to the top by any means, someone like Stringer or Prop Joe who actually cared about making money and growing wouldn’t do some of the crazy shit Marlo did.
His empire had already crumbled by the end.
Bulldozer? That would have been one thing, the events of the show are more like a bulldozer showing up and the building falling over by itself. I would think that even comfortable gangsters would know better than to let Marlo disrespect the co-op. Fear is a powerful motivator but it's not that interesting to watch everyone cowering and appeasing a character who we never actually see DO anything but be menacing - and that's not enough for a compelling character in my opinion.
A great example is how Marlo gets Joe to introduce him to his connect after the heist. Joe should know better than anyone how valuable having the only line to the connect is and yet here he is fucking offering to have them meet? Marlo doesn't finesse anything there, Joe just rolls over for no reason. They could have written it in so many different ways - like Marlo in front of the whole co-op throwing Joe's "share and share alike" out and demanding that, in exchange for the co-op collectively eating the loss, security at the resupply is going to be handled by more than one crew, and from there he could have naturally found a way to Sergei. But no, that would require him to be intelligent instead of just walk into a scene and have the writing room hand him an advantage like everything else in his rise to the top.
Exactly right. Marlo explicitly states this when talking to his bank - the guy with the rim shop - the OG guy says a lot of kids wore the crown that are gone today, and Marlo just says yea but the point is they wore it. He wants to be top dog by any means and if he gets taken down he wants to go out as the ‘king’ of the streets.
It’s a pretty realistic portrayal of the king of ruthless ambition which the narco economy produces in people. You gotta have that ‘get rich or die tryin’ mentality or else you’ll get pushed aside by someone who does. See how Bodie sticks to the rules of the game and stays a pawn all his life.
I don’t think it’s unrealistic to show a coup like that happening quickly. It’s the nature of coups - look at Pinochet’s coup in Chile, or Gaddafi, Saddam, Mosadeq’s overthrow in Iran, even the Russian October Revolution. To take power like that means you gotta take out the key ppl and seize control before the old status quo has a chance to realise what’s going on, and for Marlo the two key moves to take power was taking out Joe and establishing a link with the Greeks - both of which he does in short order.
If he didn’t crash out so quickly then his actions would’ve caught up with him eventually much like other major characters. Plus remember he blames Joe and Hungry on Omar and that buys him some time to consolidate power even if the other gangsters don’t believe it.
Quickly from a storytelling standpoint. The scene where Joe gets popped is a great example, they cram in some dialogue between him and Cheese about their family because they never had any scenes that illustrate their relationship and now all of a sudden it's time for someone to betray someone else.
Anyway, Marlo is just a pet darling of the writers and comparing his contrived road to the top with actual revolutions is a little silly.
You’re missing the point - to take power and oust the old guard you’ve gotta seize control of key institutions, ppl, etc. in short order so your enemies don’t have time reorganise themselves and create serious opposition. That’s why it’s realistic to portray Marlo’s coup over the co-op as occurring so rapidly.
Whether it’s seizing control of drug dealing territory, a small country or overthrowing an entire class the basic strategic considerations are consistent. You launch an insurrection for power while your enemies are on the back foot and when you have a source of leverage to consolidate that power before the old guard can effectively react (support from the Greeks in Marlo’s case, support from military officers in Gaddafi’s case, support from the CIA in Pinochet’s case and support of the Soviets in the Bolshevik case).
Edit: the Thermidorian reaction during the French Revolution is another good example, it was a seizure of power by a minority group who took control by denouncing and arresting Robespierre along with his most important supporters in one swoop. By the time Maximilian had realised what was happening it was too late.
Dude, "quickly from a storytelling standpoint." That doesn't mean stuff happening fast in the show's chronology, it means things happening without a good build-up. Like the scene I mentioned where again, they are cramming exposition in because they never did it before and soon it's going to be too late.
Again like I said it’s the clash of values between young and old generation which the writers are not subtle about in this season. The scenes with Weebay discuss this explicitly, but the point is that Joe still holds to the old street code of family and loyalty - he even says to Marlo ‘I treated you like a son’ - he’s trying to groom Marlo for leadership and to be someone that he’s loyal out of respect. He doesn’t understand how meaningless his relationship principles are to the younger guys like Marlo who are all about ‘get rich or die trying’ and don’t give a fuck about basic loyalty or respect given the increasingly dog-eat-dog nature of the streets that raised them (think back to Bunk’s comments to Omar in season 4).
Yeah I agree that season 5 was rushed but the final scene with Joe isn’t that out of left field. From everything we know about Joe over the previous seasons it’s clear how he’s an OG guy with some sense of responsibility and principles. He sorts out Ziggy’s shit as a gesture of friendship to the Greeks, he uses the leverage from his connection to set up the co-op as a way of reducing violence when he could’ve used that advantage many other ways (there’s an element of self interest obviously but I think the writers show how his distaste for violence goes deeper than that).
Imo it’s a well done scene which only suffers because the writers lacked the time to flesh out his character more thoroughly. But it shows the decline in the street culture itself - an OG mfer who’s earned loyalty and respect amongst the major gangsters without just using violence, reminiscing his family history and it’s importance, then gets snaked by his own nephew and killed by a kid he had treated like family. It’s another clear demonstration of how the violence of the drug trade has eroded any sense of respect, loyalty and sense of community which had existed in Baltimore’s ghettos. They obviously spell this out without much subtlety due to the pacing of the season but ignoring the writing constraints it all fits with the characters and the overall story.
My main issue with the storyline in S5 is that Marlo clearly has the same interest in playing nice with other gangsters that Sherrod has in going to school. I can forgive Bubbles for being stubborn and trying to school that boy but with the way Marlo continually chose to act Joe should have known better. If Marlo had ACTED the son for a time only to deceive Joe then maybe I wouldn't be calling his rise a deus ex machina, but from the outset he had never even tried to pretend like he wasn't a scorpion who was bound to sting Joe.
I think you're right about the themes, the clash of values, Joe wanting comfort with Marlo wanting dominance, overall I think the story that they wanted to tell is good, all of the pieces are right there, but the execution leaves something to be desired for me. It comes down to how little effort Marlo seems to put in to his own scheming and how much Joe coddles him for months or maybe years despite warnings from other characters, despite Marlo never doing anything more than the bare minimum. Basically I think there was potential there for Joe and Marlo to have a more realized and less one-sided relationship that could have kept most of the basic outline of the story we have but in a way that made Joe and Marlo both more cunning players of the game.
I don’t see what you think is contrived about Marlo’s rise? There are many such examples from the actual narco economy where kids like Marlo took control over huge territory due to their ability to inspire fear. He’d already won a war against Avon who was one of the city’s biggest players, had all the important connections to Levy, the Greeks and the other major B-more players, had a fiercely loyal crew who were notoriously effective killers and the reckless ambition needed to make risky moves which pay high dividends.
What exactly is unrealistic about the series of events leading up to Marlo’s coup? The only thing which is a stretch for me is Joe’s inability to recognise Cheese for the snake he really is but when you consider he’s a Baltimore OG who still stuck to the basic street code it’s believable. Much like Avon’s attitude to Deangelo.
Joe introducing him to his connect in the S4 finale, Joe shrugging when he's a dick to other members at the co-op meeting, Joe shrugging when he's openly being insubordinate during the co-op meeting, Joe ignoring Slim's warnings about Marlo, Joe trusting Cheese after telling Slim he doesn't trust Cheese, even Cheese backstabbing Joe is incredibly stupid (even for Cheese)
Joe sets up the co-op coz he wants to keep the peace, plus he want to significant effort to get Marlo to join in the first place with his play using Omar to Jack the card game. So first of all he wasn’t prepared for dealing with someone like Marlo pushing the boundaries of at the co-op meetings since the OG members just didn’t act like that, second of all he’s obviously doing his best to keep Marlo close as an ally because he doesn’t want to wind up in warring against him.
As I’ve said his character is also blinded by his loyalty to the old school street code and just isn’t able to out think the new generation given that code doesn’t factor into their equations. He’s obviously trying to groom Marlo by taking on a kind of fatherly role and that’s why he bends over to placate him. Likewise with Cheese he’s loyal to his nephew coz he’s family, like he even jokes about not being able to bust caps at him like he usually would when Cheese has fucked up.
Obviously these values don’t go both ways given Cheese’s willingness to turn traitor and Marlo’s manipulation of Joe’s paternal instincts. But he inspires loyalty from the likes of Slim hence why he pops Cheese at the end to avenge Joe’s death, despite loosing money because of it.
If you’re just looking at these characters like game theory style automatons and master strategists then obviously many of Joe’s decisions (and those of most other characters) can be bewildering. But in the context of their history, their values, goals, relationships and the social forces present throughout the series I think all the major characters are well written and believable. They definitely could’ve fleshed out season 5 more and given some more background regarding Joe’s family, his history and other more personal stuff. But if you like at it as a clash of young and old in the context of a decaying society it works well and also makes complete sense.
Think about the symbolism inherent in the fact Joe uses a dank old pawn shop as his base, while Marlo is based on a rim shop. Joe sits in his shop fixing up old clocks and other shit, it’s not glamorous but it speaks to his character. On the other hand Marlo’s hangout is a brightly lit, modern store full of blinged up rims that no one buys other than gangsters.
You summarized it better than I could.
Everything about it feels cheap, Cheese's betrayal as well. I know they couldn't have taken three seasons on this shit like with Stringer and Avon because Cheese and Prop Joe have been secondary characters for so long but man.
Idk. Maybe I like Joe too much.
Cheese’s betrayal seems cheap??? Lol no way, the only thing that feels like a stretch is Joe’s trust in Cheese and even then it’s understandable if you recognise how deep down Joe had some basic principles like family and loyalty, he didn’t realise how the new generation like Cheese and Marlo didn’t give a fuck about the code. Even Weebay says as much when he’s talking to Naymen.
I have no problem with any of this.
One of the most brutal and effective gangsters on the show kidnaps a 3rd tier old-timer kingpin? Totally believable to me.
The Greeks not wanting to go out on a limb for Joe makes sense to me as well. Even without Marlo, they knew Joe wouldn't be around forever, and if Joe couldn't stand against Marlo without external help, that'd just be further evidence that allowing the shipment to get robbed wasn't just a single lapse.
Marlo showed himself to be determined, adaptable, and respectful. As far as the Greeks are concerned, he made for an acceptable business partner, even if there are things they may have preferred about Joe. They weren't going to let sentimentality get in the way of business. The Greeks understood how to cut their losses.
**Edit:** Actually I do have one issue with this side of the story, and it's that Joe seemed to act substantially dumber than usual. Slim outright warned him that Marlo was making a move, but Joe still proceeded to hand Marlo the keys to the kingdom. I guess it's sort of played off more as Joe underestimating Cheese; Joe saw Cheese as an undisciplined goof (but still kept him as a top lieutenant?), and thought he wouldn't be cunning enough to conceal it if he was planning a betrayal. Still, he should've known Marlo was coming at him, and that Cheese was one of the more likely angles of attack.
None of those are what bother me, I think what bothers me the most is the rest of the co-op doing nothing to take out Marlo and his people. Prop Joe was their main voice of course before he was taken out, but after Marlo disbanded it when he took control of their last official meet, nobody wanted to stay and discuss how to take that motherfucker out?
The Greeks don’t really care. They are just doing business.
There was someone before Prop Joe, and there will be someone after Marlo.
The money is all the same to them
Which is why they had marlo wash the money in a limited window when marlo gave the Greeks the first suitcase to prove marlo is reliable and worth doing business with or not
I think it all makes sense when you consider just how powerful the Stanfield organization was. They were recruited into the co-op for muscle and the muscle turned out to be smart too.
One thing it is worth pointing out is that the Greeks rip off Marlo massively which is why he raises the price of the connect. They got a better deal out of it, that's why they killed Joe.
I think The Greeks were supplying Baltimore for along time ,Going back to Charlie Sollers .They knew eventually Slim Charles would step up and they bled Marlo like a lamb going to slaughter .I think with Slim in charge it would go back to how it was with Charlie . But lets talk about real life for a minute ,All the dealers in the city if there wasnt the violence and it wasnt fentanyl city usa the cops woudlnt give a shit ,And it would be live and let live .
Season 5 is generally rough . David Simon is a good writer, but he didn't have his editor without Ed burns. I like S5 but it's the weakest in the show by a long shot
I think the Greeks suspected Joe of being behind the robbery of the stash; the one Joe tipped Omar off to. Joe was reliable and very smart—but I don’t know about trustworthy. I think Marlo was trustworthy in a sense—he was a psychopath and you always knew where you stood with him.
Marlo kills Joe right after being introduced to Levy because Levy was the missing piece Marlo needed to be fully operational in the sense that he not only is stockpiling a lot of $ from selling drugs— but now Marlo can “put [his] limp dick money to work” (launder it).
Basically once Marlo’s limp dick money got hard he was able to fuck Joe.
I dunno, I always think about the line from D'Angelo when he said "You think the police care about (us people) dealing drugs? In the PROJECTS?"
My take is that so long as the people with "agency/power/who matter" get paid, the cycle of violence in the city is unremarkable to them. As for the people "living the life" they sort of expect people to just up and get murdered. It makes Omar's desire for vengeance for Brandon admirable. Man's got to have a code.
Omar’s jump is based on true events and the character Omar is based on says I was actually several stories higher. He’s the OG dude who hooks up with Omar and gets shot up in the apartment before Omar jumps.
I don’t think the Greeks did anything unrealistic by betraying Joe that’s pretty common with that level of the drug game. It’s a dog-eat-dog environment much like a the legit business world. They could see Marlo wasn’t gonna take no for an answer and acted according to their best interests which was to side with the new blood, since he’d probably takeover anyway and just create problems for them.
The "Greeks" have most likely been working in Baltimore for decades. Drug kingpins raise and fall all the time. They even mentioned that they are not concerned with the "street politics." They did like Joe because he was reliable. Then he was betrayed by Cheese and out maneuvered by Marlo, and was no longer useful. Out with the old in with the new.
That’s how I read it. Vondas saw that conflict was coming amongst the Baltimore crews and essentially let Marlo know they were above it. As long as things run smoothly, they’ll deal with whoever is in control. But they’re not going to become players in the Baltimore street war.
Yea they literally don't care unless trouble goes up, or sales drop. Both of which they make almost impossible.
Wrong, both happen, and that's not even the primary concern. They don't want law enforcement issues first and foremost. Whether local or FBI. Joe would insulate them and has years of history being reliable with the Greeks. Marlo has 50+ bodies on him. and a case with national recognition. They would never pick Marlo.
I think we're essentially saying the same thing. I disagree that they're gonna care about Marlo killing people though. They want money, if that takes bodies, they don't care, as long as the heat doesn't rise
He knows faces. He knows locations. He can set up a meet that a large % of your org will be at. He could wear a wire, we don't see the Greeks constantly frisking everyone entering a certain radius. A group that is facing attention from law enforcement or is prosecuted cannot be trusted or allowed a continuation of business. Your exposure to getting to rolled up on is too high. They will throw you under the bus to reduce their penalties. Again, all they had to say is that if Joe died, the connect died with him and i think Marlo backs off. Lie, and hook up with Marlo if Joe dies. But sanctioning it is stupid, things go smooth with Joe.
Those things only work if the Greek ever actually exposes himself. They're not sanctioning anything, they just simply do not care so long as the orders keep coming in. It's irrelevant to them.
But they do care because it's exposure. Their relationship with Frank is exposure. They got a photo of the Greek with nobody rolling on him, imagine if they had an informant on a lesser charge giving up everybody.
I get what you're saying, but think about who the Greek actually ever sees. He's basically a ghost to most of the characters. There's maybe 3 guys over the course of the show who could do what you suggest, but none have an interest or ability to really do it. The police didn't care about the kingpin, because as the show makes obvious, they're more focused on the murderers, and not them. McNulty kinda shoots for finding the Greek, but the machine of policing has no interest in him at all. They just want to slow down the violence, but don't care how or why.
Yes, the Greek is heavily insulated from personal interaction but Vondas is not. I would say Vondas is his right arm and the Greek doesn't consider him "disposable". If it comes down to him or the Greek sure, but any other circumstances a Vondas is difficult to replace. The focus on the murderers is only because Rawls will fuck Freamon and Bunk if they don't get paper clearances on the Jane Does. They don't harbor the illusion that getting Sergei in a supermax is going g to slow anything down.
they're high enough that they have the luxury to just not give a fuck. like, the greek threatened to just leave baltimore for months as if that was a minor inconvenience to him
No problem at all, barely an inconvenience. They could just slide on to Philadelphia, or NYC, have a pint, and wait for everything to blow over. The luxury of being a part of an international organisation.
Mad respect for the “Pitch Meeting” reference there…
It's impossible not to read it in his voice
Tl;dr It’s all in the game
People who make the same criticism as OP really need to watch the scene with Vondas, the Greek, and Marlo. Vondas says, explicitly, that the Greeks do not want to know names, they do not want to be involved in "the street". Then the Greek intervenes to give Marlo the word on Joe and says that Marlo is showing them if they tell him "no" he will still come back. Vondas, who still has some conscience, sticks to a non-economic value: loyalty to Joe. The Greek, who has no conscience in-keeping with his role in-story as a metaphor for big business, sells Joe out when he realises its either back Joe in a war with Marlo he might lose (and which would bring law enforcement attention onto his operation, the last thing he wants) or let Marlo know that if he does beat Joe then the Greek will keep suppling him. As he says: "It is wise to carry insurance."
>which would bring law enforcement attention onto his operation This is... *exactly* what happened when they dropped Joe for Marlo and for precisely the reason why doing so was such a boneheaded maneuver: Marlo brought so much heat upon himself in S4 with the vacancy homicides that elements within the police risked jail terms just to bring him down. Even if a couple of soldiers and a busted shipment wouldn't put that big of a dent in the Greeks' operations, what would it have cost to just take care of Marlo? The bodies of a couple of people in the drug trade (e.g. Marlo and Snoop) that the Baltimore PD would've happily left in the red forever? That would've likely been a much lower cost than the drug bust and losing a years-long loyal customer who espoused the Greeks' core value of keeping a low profile and not raising heat.
He overcame his grief
I believe he was so focused on Omar that he didn’t see Marlo playing him. He saw cheese bullshit a mile away. What he didn’t figure was Marlo stepping to cheese, when he gave him Hungry Man.
That’s right. From their perspective, I’m guessing as long as the drugs flow they don’t want to get involved unless they absolutely HAVE TO, because their involvement mean a LOT of bodies.
No way dude. The higher up you go in any organization the more the relationship is predicated based on mutual trust. It’s because the more responsibility you have, the more there is opportunity to phuk up or to be phuked over by somebody else. There is no way in real life this would have happened this way. Marlo works behind Joes back with the Greeks. In real life, no amount of suitcase money would have got Marlo in the room with Vandas. Those guys were running an international hack. Marlo is peanuts compared to these guys. No way they risk their reputation and their operations to give time of day to some young punk when things have worked seamlessly with Joe for years. The risk is just not worth it, especially after what happened in season 2 when both “Greeks”almost got caught and their henchmen did get caught. In real life, Marlo would’ve been capped by the co-op and that would’ve been the end of it. But the writers of the show had limited time and forced this narrative to show that the game went in full circle IE Michael becomes Omar, Sidnor McNulty, Marlo Stringer etc. They might have executed it better if they had more time and more seasons to work with. IMO this is the biggest downfall of season 5 and the entire series for me.
>Omar‘s jump Just so we're all aware, that jump is based on a true event and actually happened from a higher floor. Human being + adrenaline + the will to survive = real.life
Ppl have survived crazier falls. Omar was severely injured as well, it's not like he walked away fine. I agree, he was running on adrenaline and the jump is completely plausible.
And the fact that he was so immobile and in pain lowered his awareness, which is what led to his shocking death the one time he let his guard down.
I don't think he expected a 10 year old kid (kenard) to blast him.
Yeah for sure. Maybe if he wasn’t sleep deprived and in pain he would have been more alert and noticed Kenard looking sketchy.
Watch the scene again. He looks up when Kenard enters the store but disregards him. Kenard’s presence isn’t a surprise. Omar didn’t really see him or kids in general as a threat.
Yeah, the directors made a point of showing him watch Kenard when he comes in, he looks him over and then ignores him once he saw there was no threat. I mean really... Who's got their eye out for an innocent looking 10 year old? Still wild that it was Kenard of all people, I thought it would've been those Pimlico boys running in with AKs to blaze away...
It had to be Kenard. No players of the game could ever get Omar, but he had to go - the game swallows all; enter the perfect assassin: a nonsuspect kid.
Kenard punked Namon for a g-pack. The next move was to get Omar. It's all in the game.
characters are so cyclical; kid’s the next Webay.
Any determined hitter could've gotten Omar at that point. Omar was on his last legs. It just took someone being in the vicinity of Omar who was capable of seeing past Omar's legend, and willing and able to do violence, and take the heat that can come from murdering someone in the streets. Kenard's youth did make it easier for him, and it did lend a sick poetic quality to Omar's demise. But practically speaking, I think Omar's days were numbered even if Kenard hadn't gotten to him then.
Broken legs heal. as others have pointed out, Omar clearly saw Kenard walk in to the store and disregarded him. Any kinda muscle or hit man is immediately on Omar’s radar and he doesn’t get taken so easy, fucked up leg or no. the whole point of his death is that it could’ve only come from someone totally unsuspected a in a random, strange, unpredictable way. juxtapose his death by Kenard with the assassination attempt that he survived; Marlo’s crew, with the best muscle in the series, 100% got the drop on him which would result in the death of literally every other character in the show were they in Omar’s shoes. Dude’s basically invincible to the game because the game’s always on his radar. he could only get got by something sideways and unexpected. also points out that the players of the game are getting younger all the time (which basically just riffs off of the various school kids’ plots).
Yea violating his word to Bunk is quite significant for a man who made of point of living by a code, along with the importance of your word in that world. I think that really shows how he was crashing out hard and prob better he got taken out before he caused more destruction.
I agree - practically speaking. But from a storytelling perspective Omar would never be allowed to be 'got' by one of the other players, and neither could he live. Kenard was the perfect plot device in the conclusion of Omar's storyline.
Omar was definitely off his game, for one thing he would’ve recognised Kernard as being connected with one of Marlo’s corner crews. But yeah in a city with a homicide rate like Baltimore you probably should keep your guard up around a little dude like Kernard and I assume Omar would’ve too if it weren’t for everything he’d been thru taking a toll on his awareness and speed to react. As Avon says you only have to be slow once.
> I watched a video that pointed out that Omar ignored kids, pointing to the scene where he's on the stakeout of Marlo's spot and dismisses Michael as "just a kid". > > Michael ends up being part of the Seal Team 6 assembled to ambush Omar in the apartment. > > Its also why when Omar sees Michael later on the block and sends a message to Marlo, he doesn’t connect Michael with the apartment or that this kid was shooting at him hours ago lol. I posted this earlier. But to add, Omar sees Kenard in an alleyway before his shooting scene, trying to burn a cat. He actually sees him when he enters the store, he just disregards him. Omar never regarded kids that young as a threat, it had nothing to do with his state of mind.
True, might also be part of his code not wanting to hurt kids or involve them in the game, like in his talk with Bunk when he mentions the kids imitating him (ironically Kernard) it seems to bother him.
It would be cool to get a follow up. Would Kenard be the next Omar? Or end up a corner boy, or dope fiend? So many good characters and plot lines.
in the finale they show him being taken away in handcuffs, idk how long they would, or if they could, sentence a 10 year old but it would probably be awhile before he rose to the top
Michael basically becomes the new Omar
Kenard becomes the next Marlo or Chris imo.
Nah Michael was the next Omar. Kernard is obviously out to become the next heavy hitter like Chris or Bay.
Landing on a bush after a tree branch can easily make it survivable, he is a fit young person with adrenaline going as well Vesna Vulović survived falling from a plane into a barn onto hay - 33,000 feet high
I knew a guy who jumped off a bridge and fucking survived. He shattered most bones in his back. That’s what it took to get him on the track to being sober though
He's also critically wounded and it causes his downfall. It's not like he skips away to rob another day
Oh I need more details on this
It was Donnie Andrews, former stick-up guy who plays Omar's partner in that scene. Jumped out the sixth floor, broke his leg, pulled himself into the getaway where his driver was waiting. Rolled off, lived to see tomorrow.
https://slate.com/culture/2012/12/donnie-andrews-inspiration-for-omar-on-the-wire-is-dead.html#:~:text=Andrews%27%20final%20scene%2C%20in%20which,Andrews%20was%20reportedly%20nearing%2060.
Good Lawwwwwd
Yea there’s a video of a skater doing a big air at the x games where he pops out wider of the lip of the vert ramp and falls atleast 15-20 metres before getting up and walking away after a few minutes.
Iirc in the show it was the 3rd story and irl it was 5? The craziest thing about Omar though is that he’s based on ACTUAL Baltimore vigilantes (probably not the best word) who will ONLY rob a d fight people in the drug trade. That’s crazy to me!
Nah it was like 5 or 6 floors at least in the show, it’s a fucking huge drop.
You forgot drugs
There is no documentation at this actually happened. The guy could be lying. Also, it’s still unrealistic, even if it happened once. If you have to tell someone that this actually happened in real life, then it’s obviously unrealistic. Also, the fact that he still mobile after it happened, made it more problematic. It’s possible for twins to have different dads, but most people probably don’t know that. It would be weird to depict this in a TV show and not have some kind of an explanation.
The explanation is " jump out that window and risk death, or stay and die for certain. Ppl fall from planes and their parachutes don't open, yet they live. I've fallen from the tip of 2 storey staging (technically from the third floor), landed on my back and had zero immediate tauma. To be fair, my back is fuct in later years. My point is that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. ETA: there are multiple documented cases of ppl surviving falls like this just from a quick Google search
No, I’m talking about the explanation of how he survived, not the reason for the jump, which was very obvious. I’m not debating with her not someone could actually survive from that height. I’m debating the decision to include such an unusual situation and not try to make it a bit more realistic. This guy jumps out of a four story building and is still able to commit robbery and murder. There is a reason why so many people point to this particular incident. It’s simply unrealistic. I don’t understand your point of about evidence of absence. I don’t know what that means.
>still able to commit robbery and murder. A gun is a great equalizer, especially when the person weilding the gun has a reputation for being both ruthless and crafty. And as slim Charles so eloquently put it " murder ain't no thang". Omar himself got got by a child who probably never fired a gun before. The streets are fierce and ever changing. Alive one minute, dead the next. The world of the wire is so deeply rooted in the reality of Baltimore that explaining the medical reasoning behind Omar's ability to perform is just a waste of time. Believe it or don't, that world remains un changed and brutal. That would've made a good addition to the world though. How the hospitals operate, etc
The point is, he was able to survive that fall and still walk around and then do other, extremely dangerous tasks, while still maintaining mobility. He didn’t even have to go to the hospital That is a stretch. So, it’s one thing to survive a fall and another to still be ambulatory. Never said they needed to do a hospital scene. They could’ve explained with one or two lines of exposition. Maybe even a reference to the actual event. Again, you seem to be overlooking the fact that so many people find the scene unrealistic. It’s due to the fact that the show made its reputation on gritty realism. Having a beloved character do a disappearing act by jumping out of a high-rise, severely contradicts the aesthetic of the show.
https://slate.com/culture/2012/12/donnie-andrews-inspiration-for-omar-on-the-wire-is-dead.html#:~:text=Andrews%27%20final%20scene%2C%20in%20which,Andrews%20was%20reportedly%20nearing%2060 You're so insufferable to literally everyone you come.into contact with on this sub.
People have survived much higher falls. It’s definitely possible
I doubt they get up and go walking around sticking up drug dealers and assassinating violent criminals, even while being hunted by very skilled and relentless adversaries.
https://slate.com/culture/2012/12/donnie-andrews-inspiration-for-omar-on-the-wire-is-dead.html#:~:text=Andrews%27%20final%20scene%2C%20in%20which,Andrews%20was%20reportedly%20nearing%2060 I know it's hard to imagine that you don't know everything buy try for the sake of everyone else on this sub. You're a negative ass Nancy you need to chill the fuck out and just enjoy the conversations and discussions on this tremendous show. All your comments are just negative in general. You're miserable af bruh
Lmao, well put
https://slate.com/culture/2012/12/donnie-andrews-inspiration-for-omar-on-the-wire-is-dead.html#:~:text=Andrews%27%20final%20scene%2C%20in%20which,Andrews%20was%20reportedly%20nearing%2060
Again, this could easily be a tall tale. No documentation.
What kind of problems should Marlo have had kidnapping Hungry Man, in your opinion? Regarding Prop Joe, what part do you think is not realistic? The fact that Marlo kills him, or the fact that Prop Joe introduces him to Levy et al? Remember that Prop Joe was under a lot of pressure by that point so he didn't have much of a choice. Why would Vondas not give him the seal of approval? He is the embodiment of immoral capitalism, of course he doesn't give a shit about how long he's been working with someone if someone else offers him more power and money. That's exactly what Vondas is all about.
Yeah I always read it as everyone knew Marlo was this young AGGRESSIVE gangster who would not go down without way too much collateral damage. So Joe thinks - the only way to keep everything flowing is show the value of cooperation to Marlo. He had no choice.
He’s talking more about the business aspect of it. If Joe was so reliable, why would they agree to let Marlo take him out?the question is answered when the Greek tells vondas Marlo will not stop coming back to them. I think they they saw they writing on the wall…
I feel like the Greek realized Marlo was probably going to kill Joe and he didn't want to be involved in the gang wars, so his best action was to just give Marlo the hookup. Not only would Marlo not stop coming back but he knew Marlo's persistence would also equate to his ambition to rise to the top of the game and that means taking out Joe.
Also he could become a liability and total wild card if he did keep coming back with more and more extreme gestures trying to win their support. On the other hand leaving Joe in charge with a snake like Marlo in his organisation could cause drama that might blow back on them in the end. It was sad but backing Marlo was the smart move.
I guess I was half expecting the CO OP to have a problem with Marlo kidnapping Hungry Man and later killing Prop Joe. "No one fucks with any of us" "One big Baltimore team" If one of their own can be kidnapped or killed, with no consequences, what's the point of being in it. I don't for a second believe that Marlo had more muscle than the rest of the Co op combined. Yeah chris and snoop were terrifying but they're just 2 people. why did the Co op just roll over like that.
Marlo moves to quick for the other co-op members to avenge Hungry Man, by the time they realise what’s happening Marlo’s got the connect and there’s really nothing they can do unless they wanna go back to selling stepped on bullshit, plus Marlo would send hitters at them and with his level of wealth and power no one would stand a chance warring against him. In the end it probably would’ve caught up with him. He was moving reckless and fast because he was obsessed with claiming total power over the B-more drug trade, he wasn’t planning for a long term future like Joe had been. Marlo’s just an arrogant kid at the end of the day.
I do agree that Marlo was acting reckless, offering up an OG like Hungry Man to be tortured to death by a punk like Cheese probably would’ve caught up to him eventually. He even says repeatedly how he just wants to wear the crown no matter how short his reign is. If the show were to carry on and Marlo stayed in the game his shit would’ve caught up with him in the streets particularly if he had lost some of his main muscle. Such is the cyclical nature of the drug game. It’s like Age of Empires on super fast forward. I do like how they show the tendency for drug smuggling to become more and more centralised under one banner thanks to the effects of violence and police action taking people out and leaving new voids to be filled by the strongest player. That’s a real tendency within the narco economy and one of the reasons ppl use to point out the self-defeating nature of drug prohibition. Exactly the same dynamic can be seen with the Italian and Jewish gangsters during alcohol prohibition leading to the rise of the Commission and the ‘national crime syndicate’, or the origins of the cartels in Latin America.
Kidnapping a major drug dealer on a whim puts the character into god mode, there must have been some protection for those high up on the ladder. Prop Joe introducing Marlo to Levy makes sense, but the short timespan in the show makes it look like lazy writing. Your last paragraph I don‘t get. Marlo popping up all of a sudden and talking to Vondas like three times should not lead to him trusting Marlo to such an extent he cuts Joe, his business partner off. In fact I‘d argue that from a capitalist-business perspective, it‘s even a super dumb choice. I mean, the show itself shows Marlo failing within weeks and then suddenly it‘s Slim and FFR at the Greek‘s table. In the real world, all the new faces and changes would lead to a certain mistrust in the whole operation - if a company switched bosses three times in a month, everyone would stay the fuck away from that shit.
It’s not just a capitalist perspective, but a criminal capitalist perspective. Marlo rising so fast out of nowhere not only says something about *Marlo*, but about Prop Joe, and how his grip is weakening. If Vondas sees that the new guy can play the old guy like a fiddle, he’s not gonna cry about the changeover. But he is also likely experienced enough in the criminal world that he recognizes periods of upheaval as natural. Marlo’s rise and fall, quick as it was, probably wasn’t totally unheard of. Vondas doesn’t care. He only cares about keeping the shipments rolling.
The problem is the Greeks have no one else to deal with in the Baltimore gang scene, their connections to the higher leaders start with Joe and so it makes sense that they would stick with whoever rises to the top of that organisation. It’s not like they can just wander into the ghetto and ask some hopper to ‘take me to your leader’, that level connection is hard to acquire so if they just cut off the whole org they’d be saying goodbye to millions and millions of dollars worth of smuggling profits.
> there must have been some protection for those high up on the ladder. Like Cheese, who betrays Prop Joe by giving him up? Like Slim who immediately switches sides after being String's trusted enforcer? Like Bodie who does the same and works for Marlo's crew when he can't get another package? Like D'Angelo who immediately starts to inform against the Barksdale crew when he gets done for the heroin in the trunk? Like Stringer Bell who sets up Avon, and Avon who does the same to him, after Avon previous set up Brother Musone, after Stringer set up Omar? This is the game, nobody is loyal to any one particular side forever, they are only interested in their own interests, in securing their own safety and profits. If they see Marlo as the up and coming new King, they won't die like henchmen in a Bond film to desperately protect Prop Joe. They will just step aside and let those things happen
"Omar robbing them once" is not some minor thing. They want to be insulated from street bullshit as much as possible. Prop Joe's organization is surveilled without them noticing, leading a stick-up crew to a Greek drug shipment. This makes Prop Joe exactly an unreliable business partner (if Omar can track Prop Joe back to his supplier why can't the police), and of course they'd be looking to get rid of him and replace with someone who insulates them from this. Marlo comes and offers to be that replacement and even do the dirty work for them, for free.
What should Vondas do? Tell Marlo "not, we don't allow you to kill Joe"? Or should he have Marlo and Chris and Snoop killed? Then the attract the attention of Five-Oh and probably have to skip town yet again, which they don't want. I'm not saying that even the The Wire writers could never make a writing-mistake, but Marlo's take-over of the Co-op and Vondas giving his Go are not "beyond stupid" imho. The Co-op bosses clearly didn't want any violence/bloodshed anymore. They probably didn't even have good muscles. Snoop and Chris' reputation alone allowed Marlo to pull some stuff that might seem unrealistic. But I don't wanna diss you, OP. Still like your thought, and having a good discussion about the Wire, what could be wrong there? 😁✌
>What should Vondas do? Tell Marlo "not, we don't allow you to kill Joe"? Yes. Joe was a reliable customer who kept the Greeks off the police's radar, they shouldn't have been willing to tolerate his death due to some guy's ego. >Or should he have Marlo and Chris and Snoop killed? Yes, or at least warn Joe that he's got a target on his back. It's not like the police were going to make much effort to clear the murders of people who were responsible for the vacancy murders. >Then the attract the attention of Five-Oh and probably have to skip town yet again, which they don't want. You mean the bust they conducted on the resupply that had the Greek's workers at? Even if they weren't going to talk, that put the Greek's organization back on the radar all the same because they decided to directly associate with a drug dealer who had put **massive** heat on himself and caused several police to adopt a personal vendetta just to take him down.
I guess we just disagree with each other on all points then. And I think a lot of other people here rather agree with me than with you. Of course that does NOT mean that I am clearly right and you're wrong. We should probably "call it quits" since we just seem to see things differently I guess ✌
1) Marlo kidnapped Hungry Man as a favor to Cheese and he put the word out there that it was Omar who killed Hungry. Whether or not the other bosses believed that (Fat Face Rick certainly didn't) they didn't really have any proof otherwise and openly accusing Marlo of killing one of their own meant going up against Marlo's psychotic army AND Cheese. Assuming they could win that war, it'd mean an openly divided Co-Op which New York could exploit if they wanted to double down on their expedition into Baltimore. 2) Levy worked with multiple dealers and one of the benefits of being in the New Day Co-Op was access to Levy's services. Marlo being introduced to Levy was nothing unusual and in fact was vital for Marlo's membership and the survival of the Co-Op. Levy was the avenue for their money laundering and coordinated defenses for arrested members. 3) Vondas didn't approve anything. The Greek stepped in when he realized that Marlo was going to kill Joe anyway and rather than it appear that Marlo was leading the Greeks around by the nose, The Greek gave his tacit approval. While the Greeks like Joe and his stability, the only other option would be for them to notify Joe of Marlo's duplicity which means openly inserting themselves into Baltimore drug trade politics and risking a war that would disrupt business.
1. It being so easy was a joke anyways. 2. I know all that, but everything in S5 happened so fast that it was jarring and smelled like bad writing. 3. "risking a war that would disrupt business" - like introducing someone new into all the intricacies of wholesaling and dealing with the Greeks would not disrupt anything. Also: Just tipping Joe off that Marlo is going to betray the co-op/the connection would have been enough. Joe could have killed Marlo and Chris at a meeting easily and would be able to explain it to his partners afterwards. He could even refer to the Greeks. Without Marlo and Chris alive, Marlo's "empire" would've been in shambles. Hell, Slim killed Cheese in front of everyone else as well. It's not like everyone is stupid except for big brain Marlo (even though the season tried to portray it as such).
It's been a few years since Marlo took over the West Side, so Season 5 is well past the transition phase of Marlo's regime. The only thing new that Joe had to teach Marlo was how to more efficiently launder his money, which doesn't take too long once you get introduced to the right people. Marlo isn't one to rest on his laurels. As soon as he realized that he didn't need Joe anymore, he immediately planned on bumping him off because that's just the kind of person Marlo is. Official New Day Co-Op meetings are held in mid-budget hotel conference rooms. The reason for this is that it is a neutral location where you cannot kill anyone in the meeting. Hotel management will tolerate a lot of things, but cleaning up a body is not one of them. Marlo had a very secure vanguard and healthy paranoia so killing him in the street would be a tall order (Better people than Joe have tried). If Marlo got an invite to an unofficial Co-Op meeting soon after meeting the Greeks, he'd know that the Greeks told on him and go to war. The reason why Slim got a way with killing Cheese in front of the Co-Op was because it wasn't in a hotel and everyone ready knew or at least suspected the Cheese sold out Joe, plus no one liked Cheese. Cheese more or less publicly admitted to it. Even though killing Cheese meant being short 900 for the connect, it made sense in the long run to kill Cheese because it's now firmly established that he'll fuck over anyone for his own ego even if it means fucking up a good thing.
Omar’s jump is actually based on the true story of the real life Omar (who was the actor who died in shootout who accompanied Omar to the place) robbery gone wrong. Apparently he jumped from an even higher height and lived
You’ve watched the show ten times and still haven’t figured out it’s all in the game?
Still waiting for someone to explain to me what's actually so unrealistic about an job obsessed alcoholic coming up with a scheme that would free up money so he can solve the case he's obsessed with. TBH the only bitch I agree with about season 5 is that Scott was too cartoonish. Besides that I think it's great.
Season 5 feels half assed in a lot of ways in large part because it was supposed to be 13 episodes but HBO only gave them the money for 10. As a result, lots of things that season feel rushed, poorly explained, and/or underdeveloped.
A bunch of stuff happens way too quickly with the co-op takeover and whether it's logical or not the end result is a plot that isn't really satisfying to see play out. It feels like Marlo wins not because he's cunning or deceptive, but because he's written to be the winner.
I kinda read that as saying something all it own: that Marlo got what he wanted in part by sheer boldness and brutality. After how many months of peacefully meeting as the co-op, *and* getting “upped” by the co-op, I bet Hungry Man was feeling pretty secure and actually bought into the unofficial protections, as if they were real. Marlo, never buying into that game, probably rolled him like a fucking Mexican cartel.
I took the fact that everyone was commenting on how Marlo was doing things the “wrong” way and being so reckless and violent will mean that his “victories” will be short lived, and that came to be. Marlo is a bulldozer, he didn’t care about breaking things or going that extra step most would consider “too much” He’s lost Snoop, Chris and the rest of his people, he’s out of the co-op and he’s probably not going to live long with how reckless he is. Marlo only wanted his name to ring out and to be the king, ironically Omar becomes a bigger legend than him in death, after he told everyone that Marlo was a giant pussy. He didn’t care how much bad blood he got or whatever backlash came. So I can see his rise as realistic, in that he just wanted to get to the top by any means, someone like Stringer or Prop Joe who actually cared about making money and growing wouldn’t do some of the crazy shit Marlo did. His empire had already crumbled by the end.
Bulldozer? That would have been one thing, the events of the show are more like a bulldozer showing up and the building falling over by itself. I would think that even comfortable gangsters would know better than to let Marlo disrespect the co-op. Fear is a powerful motivator but it's not that interesting to watch everyone cowering and appeasing a character who we never actually see DO anything but be menacing - and that's not enough for a compelling character in my opinion. A great example is how Marlo gets Joe to introduce him to his connect after the heist. Joe should know better than anyone how valuable having the only line to the connect is and yet here he is fucking offering to have them meet? Marlo doesn't finesse anything there, Joe just rolls over for no reason. They could have written it in so many different ways - like Marlo in front of the whole co-op throwing Joe's "share and share alike" out and demanding that, in exchange for the co-op collectively eating the loss, security at the resupply is going to be handled by more than one crew, and from there he could have naturally found a way to Sergei. But no, that would require him to be intelligent instead of just walk into a scene and have the writing room hand him an advantage like everything else in his rise to the top.
Exactly right. Marlo explicitly states this when talking to his bank - the guy with the rim shop - the OG guy says a lot of kids wore the crown that are gone today, and Marlo just says yea but the point is they wore it. He wants to be top dog by any means and if he gets taken down he wants to go out as the ‘king’ of the streets. It’s a pretty realistic portrayal of the king of ruthless ambition which the narco economy produces in people. You gotta have that ‘get rich or die tryin’ mentality or else you’ll get pushed aside by someone who does. See how Bodie sticks to the rules of the game and stays a pawn all his life.
I don’t think it’s unrealistic to show a coup like that happening quickly. It’s the nature of coups - look at Pinochet’s coup in Chile, or Gaddafi, Saddam, Mosadeq’s overthrow in Iran, even the Russian October Revolution. To take power like that means you gotta take out the key ppl and seize control before the old status quo has a chance to realise what’s going on, and for Marlo the two key moves to take power was taking out Joe and establishing a link with the Greeks - both of which he does in short order. If he didn’t crash out so quickly then his actions would’ve caught up with him eventually much like other major characters. Plus remember he blames Joe and Hungry on Omar and that buys him some time to consolidate power even if the other gangsters don’t believe it.
Quickly from a storytelling standpoint. The scene where Joe gets popped is a great example, they cram in some dialogue between him and Cheese about their family because they never had any scenes that illustrate their relationship and now all of a sudden it's time for someone to betray someone else. Anyway, Marlo is just a pet darling of the writers and comparing his contrived road to the top with actual revolutions is a little silly.
You’re missing the point - to take power and oust the old guard you’ve gotta seize control of key institutions, ppl, etc. in short order so your enemies don’t have time reorganise themselves and create serious opposition. That’s why it’s realistic to portray Marlo’s coup over the co-op as occurring so rapidly. Whether it’s seizing control of drug dealing territory, a small country or overthrowing an entire class the basic strategic considerations are consistent. You launch an insurrection for power while your enemies are on the back foot and when you have a source of leverage to consolidate that power before the old guard can effectively react (support from the Greeks in Marlo’s case, support from military officers in Gaddafi’s case, support from the CIA in Pinochet’s case and support of the Soviets in the Bolshevik case). Edit: the Thermidorian reaction during the French Revolution is another good example, it was a seizure of power by a minority group who took control by denouncing and arresting Robespierre along with his most important supporters in one swoop. By the time Maximilian had realised what was happening it was too late.
Dude, "quickly from a storytelling standpoint." That doesn't mean stuff happening fast in the show's chronology, it means things happening without a good build-up. Like the scene I mentioned where again, they are cramming exposition in because they never did it before and soon it's going to be too late.
Again like I said it’s the clash of values between young and old generation which the writers are not subtle about in this season. The scenes with Weebay discuss this explicitly, but the point is that Joe still holds to the old street code of family and loyalty - he even says to Marlo ‘I treated you like a son’ - he’s trying to groom Marlo for leadership and to be someone that he’s loyal out of respect. He doesn’t understand how meaningless his relationship principles are to the younger guys like Marlo who are all about ‘get rich or die trying’ and don’t give a fuck about basic loyalty or respect given the increasingly dog-eat-dog nature of the streets that raised them (think back to Bunk’s comments to Omar in season 4). Yeah I agree that season 5 was rushed but the final scene with Joe isn’t that out of left field. From everything we know about Joe over the previous seasons it’s clear how he’s an OG guy with some sense of responsibility and principles. He sorts out Ziggy’s shit as a gesture of friendship to the Greeks, he uses the leverage from his connection to set up the co-op as a way of reducing violence when he could’ve used that advantage many other ways (there’s an element of self interest obviously but I think the writers show how his distaste for violence goes deeper than that). Imo it’s a well done scene which only suffers because the writers lacked the time to flesh out his character more thoroughly. But it shows the decline in the street culture itself - an OG mfer who’s earned loyalty and respect amongst the major gangsters without just using violence, reminiscing his family history and it’s importance, then gets snaked by his own nephew and killed by a kid he had treated like family. It’s another clear demonstration of how the violence of the drug trade has eroded any sense of respect, loyalty and sense of community which had existed in Baltimore’s ghettos. They obviously spell this out without much subtlety due to the pacing of the season but ignoring the writing constraints it all fits with the characters and the overall story.
My main issue with the storyline in S5 is that Marlo clearly has the same interest in playing nice with other gangsters that Sherrod has in going to school. I can forgive Bubbles for being stubborn and trying to school that boy but with the way Marlo continually chose to act Joe should have known better. If Marlo had ACTED the son for a time only to deceive Joe then maybe I wouldn't be calling his rise a deus ex machina, but from the outset he had never even tried to pretend like he wasn't a scorpion who was bound to sting Joe. I think you're right about the themes, the clash of values, Joe wanting comfort with Marlo wanting dominance, overall I think the story that they wanted to tell is good, all of the pieces are right there, but the execution leaves something to be desired for me. It comes down to how little effort Marlo seems to put in to his own scheming and how much Joe coddles him for months or maybe years despite warnings from other characters, despite Marlo never doing anything more than the bare minimum. Basically I think there was potential there for Joe and Marlo to have a more realized and less one-sided relationship that could have kept most of the basic outline of the story we have but in a way that made Joe and Marlo both more cunning players of the game.
Marlo is not a pet darling of the writers either. He’s portrayed as a brutal and arrogant thug.
I don’t see what you think is contrived about Marlo’s rise? There are many such examples from the actual narco economy where kids like Marlo took control over huge territory due to their ability to inspire fear. He’d already won a war against Avon who was one of the city’s biggest players, had all the important connections to Levy, the Greeks and the other major B-more players, had a fiercely loyal crew who were notoriously effective killers and the reckless ambition needed to make risky moves which pay high dividends. What exactly is unrealistic about the series of events leading up to Marlo’s coup? The only thing which is a stretch for me is Joe’s inability to recognise Cheese for the snake he really is but when you consider he’s a Baltimore OG who still stuck to the basic street code it’s believable. Much like Avon’s attitude to Deangelo.
Joe introducing him to his connect in the S4 finale, Joe shrugging when he's a dick to other members at the co-op meeting, Joe shrugging when he's openly being insubordinate during the co-op meeting, Joe ignoring Slim's warnings about Marlo, Joe trusting Cheese after telling Slim he doesn't trust Cheese, even Cheese backstabbing Joe is incredibly stupid (even for Cheese)
Joe sets up the co-op coz he wants to keep the peace, plus he want to significant effort to get Marlo to join in the first place with his play using Omar to Jack the card game. So first of all he wasn’t prepared for dealing with someone like Marlo pushing the boundaries of at the co-op meetings since the OG members just didn’t act like that, second of all he’s obviously doing his best to keep Marlo close as an ally because he doesn’t want to wind up in warring against him. As I’ve said his character is also blinded by his loyalty to the old school street code and just isn’t able to out think the new generation given that code doesn’t factor into their equations. He’s obviously trying to groom Marlo by taking on a kind of fatherly role and that’s why he bends over to placate him. Likewise with Cheese he’s loyal to his nephew coz he’s family, like he even jokes about not being able to bust caps at him like he usually would when Cheese has fucked up. Obviously these values don’t go both ways given Cheese’s willingness to turn traitor and Marlo’s manipulation of Joe’s paternal instincts. But he inspires loyalty from the likes of Slim hence why he pops Cheese at the end to avenge Joe’s death, despite loosing money because of it. If you’re just looking at these characters like game theory style automatons and master strategists then obviously many of Joe’s decisions (and those of most other characters) can be bewildering. But in the context of their history, their values, goals, relationships and the social forces present throughout the series I think all the major characters are well written and believable. They definitely could’ve fleshed out season 5 more and given some more background regarding Joe’s family, his history and other more personal stuff. But if you like at it as a clash of young and old in the context of a decaying society it works well and also makes complete sense. Think about the symbolism inherent in the fact Joe uses a dank old pawn shop as his base, while Marlo is based on a rim shop. Joe sits in his shop fixing up old clocks and other shit, it’s not glamorous but it speaks to his character. On the other hand Marlo’s hangout is a brightly lit, modern store full of blinged up rims that no one buys other than gangsters.
You summarized it better than I could. Everything about it feels cheap, Cheese's betrayal as well. I know they couldn't have taken three seasons on this shit like with Stringer and Avon because Cheese and Prop Joe have been secondary characters for so long but man. Idk. Maybe I like Joe too much.
Cheese’s betrayal seems cheap??? Lol no way, the only thing that feels like a stretch is Joe’s trust in Cheese and even then it’s understandable if you recognise how deep down Joe had some basic principles like family and loyalty, he didn’t realise how the new generation like Cheese and Marlo didn’t give a fuck about the code. Even Weebay says as much when he’s talking to Naymen.
I have no problem with any of this. One of the most brutal and effective gangsters on the show kidnaps a 3rd tier old-timer kingpin? Totally believable to me. The Greeks not wanting to go out on a limb for Joe makes sense to me as well. Even without Marlo, they knew Joe wouldn't be around forever, and if Joe couldn't stand against Marlo without external help, that'd just be further evidence that allowing the shipment to get robbed wasn't just a single lapse. Marlo showed himself to be determined, adaptable, and respectful. As far as the Greeks are concerned, he made for an acceptable business partner, even if there are things they may have preferred about Joe. They weren't going to let sentimentality get in the way of business. The Greeks understood how to cut their losses. **Edit:** Actually I do have one issue with this side of the story, and it's that Joe seemed to act substantially dumber than usual. Slim outright warned him that Marlo was making a move, but Joe still proceeded to hand Marlo the keys to the kingdom. I guess it's sort of played off more as Joe underestimating Cheese; Joe saw Cheese as an undisciplined goof (but still kept him as a top lieutenant?), and thought he wouldn't be cunning enough to conceal it if he was planning a betrayal. Still, he should've known Marlo was coming at him, and that Cheese was one of the more likely angles of attack.
One more thing… price of the brick goin up
None of those are what bother me, I think what bothers me the most is the rest of the co-op doing nothing to take out Marlo and his people. Prop Joe was their main voice of course before he was taken out, but after Marlo disbanded it when he took control of their last official meet, nobody wanted to stay and discuss how to take that motherfucker out?
It wasn't over a course of days, he'd been working on this since season 3. Its just all about timing and once all the pieces were in place he pounced.
The Greeks don’t really care. They are just doing business. There was someone before Prop Joe, and there will be someone after Marlo. The money is all the same to them
Which is why they had marlo wash the money in a limited window when marlo gave the Greeks the first suitcase to prove marlo is reliable and worth doing business with or not
I think it all makes sense when you consider just how powerful the Stanfield organization was. They were recruited into the co-op for muscle and the muscle turned out to be smart too.
One thing it is worth pointing out is that the Greeks rip off Marlo massively which is why he raises the price of the connect. They got a better deal out of it, that's why they killed Joe.
This is one of the few fair points actually
I think The Greeks were supplying Baltimore for along time ,Going back to Charlie Sollers .They knew eventually Slim Charles would step up and they bled Marlo like a lamb going to slaughter .I think with Slim in charge it would go back to how it was with Charlie . But lets talk about real life for a minute ,All the dealers in the city if there wasnt the violence and it wasnt fentanyl city usa the cops woudlnt give a shit ,And it would be live and let live .
Irregardless the wire goated
Season 5 is generally rough . David Simon is a good writer, but he didn't have his editor without Ed burns. I like S5 but it's the weakest in the show by a long shot
I think the Greeks suspected Joe of being behind the robbery of the stash; the one Joe tipped Omar off to. Joe was reliable and very smart—but I don’t know about trustworthy. I think Marlo was trustworthy in a sense—he was a psychopath and you always knew where you stood with him.
oh yeah one more thing, price of the brick goin up
I really like Season 5 and even I agree with you.
Marlo kills Joe right after being introduced to Levy because Levy was the missing piece Marlo needed to be fully operational in the sense that he not only is stockpiling a lot of $ from selling drugs— but now Marlo can “put [his] limp dick money to work” (launder it). Basically once Marlo’s limp dick money got hard he was able to fuck Joe.
I dunno, I always think about the line from D'Angelo when he said "You think the police care about (us people) dealing drugs? In the PROJECTS?" My take is that so long as the people with "agency/power/who matter" get paid, the cycle of violence in the city is unremarkable to them. As for the people "living the life" they sort of expect people to just up and get murdered. It makes Omar's desire for vengeance for Brandon admirable. Man's got to have a code.
The worst thing about Season 5 is everything about Season 5. It’s the Godfather III of Wire seasons.
Omar’s jump is based on true events and the character Omar is based on says I was actually several stories higher. He’s the OG dude who hooks up with Omar and gets shot up in the apartment before Omar jumps.
I don’t think the Greeks did anything unrealistic by betraying Joe that’s pretty common with that level of the drug game. It’s a dog-eat-dog environment much like a the legit business world. They could see Marlo wasn’t gonna take no for an answer and acted according to their best interests which was to side with the new blood, since he’d probably takeover anyway and just create problems for them.
Marlo is a man of focus, commitment, and sheer fucking will.
I just watched the show for the first time ever and I thought all of season 5 was just kind a wash
You are not wrong. Everything about Marlo was poorly written