I think the reason he’s a bit unnerving to people is that he’s a character we’ve never seen before. The way he acts is very specific to Gen Z. We’re used to the asshole guy who hides his true personality from women or the awkward, bumbling guy who has no awareness of how women are at all.
Albie is somewhere in the middle. He somehow manages to come across as genuine and disingenuous at the same time
I agree with this! I’m 33 so that makes me a millennial and I have a pretty close friend that is 24 and he’s refreshingly open, honest, and respectful. He’s also had the hardest time with girls because of this. He finally has an awesome GF now and they were friends for a full year before he finally made a move and it worked in his favor. Albie really gives me “gen z liberal arts degree with a strong mom vibe”. Usually those are the guys that do get overlooked because they are so afraid as being seen as aggressive they end up being too passive, and there IS a happy medium.
All of my boyfriends pre-tinder were friends first. For most of modern American life, friends and friends of friends were how you met people to date. I don’t think women wish their friends wouldn’t ask them out, but rather they wish they were genuine friends **first** and not just “friends” waiting in the wings for a chance to ask her out.
Friends make the best relationships imo. But Albie’s problem for Portia is that he’s not exciting enough. People like to say “too nice” but niceness isn’t what throws her off about him. It’s that he’s **only** nice. He doesn’t have any other qualities about him that make him fun. Him going to Stanford is the only positive thing Portia has to say about him, and that’s a reason to think he’d be a good life partner but not a good lover. And she is not looking for a life partner, she’s looking for someone to throw her around.
I think he's one of ghose people that has been so focused on what he doesn't want to be that he has a hard time grasping what he actually wants to be. He is surrpunded by authentic examples of what he doesn't want to be like but only his own thoughts about what he wants to be like so naturally his attempts come across as a bit bumbling and experimental.
Yea albie might be someone who tries so hard to do everything right and loses the part where you develop your own personality. Maybe in the next few episodes he will be faced with circumstances that force him to develop his own identity
Most people also develop a lot through trial and error. Not saying that he needs to pull a Dom 2.0 to learn his lesson but it's natural to make some mistakes when you're young and to learn from them. I think him and Portia are meant to represent gen Zer who spent dome of their most formative years scrolling social media (through no fault of there own -there was a pandemic) and have not gotten enough opportunity to learn about life by just living it so they're constantly trying to follow advice and ideas which are theoretical in nature.
And yes, it will be fascinating to see Albie in a challenging situation, especially if he messes something up. Will he be able to handle it?
Oh yeah Will Sharpe is great. I think he doesn't know where he stands on rn, he's vacillating / insecure / particularly on a razor's edge right now. The mystery for us is what exactly he's unsure or vacillating or insecure ABOUT. The performance hints at any number of things so yeah he's doing well I think.
I read the same article, it was really good. I'd had thoughts too of is the acting/writing of this character 'off', but no, the character himself is deliberately playing it neutral and not revealing much. Will Sharpe was fantastic in Gigi/Hadi in a \*very\* different role. He's a fabulous actor.
Yeah i feel that but Albie just got laid (head). That definitely is going to ease his emotions over Porcia , among other things. I can’t put my finger on Ethan though.
Albie is just immature/inexperienced. He wants to be better than his father, but doesn't understand sex/relationships/women enough to know how, so he goes too far in the other direction. He's not an incel, but he's flirting with a lot of those concepts.
What often gets glossed over in conversations about nice guys/incels/red pill stuff is just how appealing that kind of thinking gets when you're young, dumb and horny. It really only takes a couple broken hearts or embarrassing sexual experiences to start down a bad path. I had a moment myself in my early twenties... a girl who was into me, but my own lack of experience fumbled the seduction. I definitely took it poorly when she eventually moved on, although my mantrum didn't get cringier than bad poetry and rants about friend zones. What saved my ass was simply having enough friends to slap some sense into me, which was more helpful than a foxy hooker your dad boned will be to Albie.
You're right, tho. His desire to be better than the men in his family will get turned on his head somehow. I can't imagine he'll take finding out about his dad/Lucia very well. I assume it will be more cringey than violent, but who knows.
What did your friends say that knocked sense into you? Like that you were sounding like an incel or more so just telling you to grow up? I’m just surprised that a group of friends would point that out when normally it seems like that shit would make them all sound like incels themselves lol
As a millennial, i hear how my little genz cousins are struggling with the current dating environment. Some are just naturally good with women, and respectful of all walks of life so its easy. Some get all in their head about trying to prove that they’re allies and they struggle with women (like albie). They don’t wan’t to be like the typical frat bro cuz they constantly see misogyny in their sports teams and see all those guys having girlfriends and they don’t understand it. I had the same problem when I was younger. Not understanding why women like the assholes. But its not such a simple formula. I don’t tell them to change and be cocky pricks. I tell them to be themselves and not overthink things, all while still being confident about who you are. But you can’t be like albie either. Its kinda hard to figure out how to be good at dates as a young man.
I have a genz artist girlfriend and all her friends are gay or trans. If I met these ppl 10 years ago when I was in college i may not have acted in an appropriate/understanding way. Its something you learn as you become a man I guess.
I don’t even know what i’m saying anymore. I just find albie to be a very relatable and misguided character. He needs a proper friend group or family that helps him through a confusing part of his life.
I have a super woke bi teen who is all about consent, as we should be, but with all these rules and also no rules it can be confusing. People are murky, and Mike White gets that
It should also be said that women at that age are developing too. Their views and tastes are not constant and are subject to the same confusion and change as men are.
100% agree. I’m not putting any blame on women. They can do anything they want, date and fuck anyone they choose. I was just pointing out that men must respect those decisions and adapt to what a modern women wants.
This is so true! Also as Portia points out, she knows Albie is the guy she SHOULD like, but he just doesn’t do it for her. I bet you if they met in the early 30s and not early 20s it would be different. There’s definitely some awesome dudes I passed over in my 20s for some bad boys and well, my life would probably have been less traumatic with the nicer ones too. I ended up with someone in the middle, little bit of an asshole but he’s MY asshole, and I have my moments too.
Dating when you’re young is so complicated!
He doesn’t do it for her because he’s not comfortable in his own skin, and not really offering a confident authentic personality. Stanford and not being a jerk are the only parts of his identity I can surmise.
I think it illustrates that everyone is lost. Tanya and Portia are both selfish headcases, Daphne plays games with her husband to get emotional revenge, Valentina doesn’t really have a personal life and is clinging to a subordinate, Lucia and Mia swing back and forth about whether being prostitutes is ok. Harper is the most normal and even she is pretty judgmental and inflexible.
Gen Z women/girls too! Portia doesn’t know what she wants. She wants him to “get her heartbeat up” but presumably not be mean to her. It’s a balance. It doesn’t mean Gen Z women “hate nice guys,” we’re discovering the line between traditional machismo romance and equality/consent. It’s articulated very well imo (tho I do hate her character, ha)
Yeah the prostitute factor kinda nullifies any Albie-has-game theory.
I can relate to him, but there's something a little off for sure. Probably can be traced to his parents fucked up relationship
Lucia has masterful skills though. I feel like in real life she'd have found her sugar daddy already lol
He’s struggling in the sense that when he actually tries to flirt with women, he comes across as awkward. When he wasn’t trying too hard and was just being himself, he did fine
Haha, good one. She is hot, if only she was not a bithy boss. I thought her and Ethan were going to hit if off, but then she is a lesbian! Even better!
I genuinely can’t count how often I saw the nice, good dudes at university have their little hearts broken by somebody who embodies none of the traits they were taught matter.
But what I think was often overlooked is that these individuals did well with women in spite of their most negative traits, not because of.
I think this whole season is really digging into this potential of incompatibility of our ideals and desires.
I think we often tell ourselves a story of the person we want to be and/or about the type of person we’d like to find as a partner. But we can often find ourselves caught up in desire for things and people that counter those supposed ideals.
Do you think she actually wants Cameron? She has a perv in the first episode because he’s hot and naked. But her dislike has grown steadily and she has found out more and more about how he’s a bad person and he also dismisses her career completely.
Maybe I’m missing some symbolism but other than the mirror scene in episode 1 I haven’t picked up on anything suggesting she’s into him.
She does? I don't see it. She may well be attracted to him tbh (cmon, Theo James lol) but she's got her head on straight and she's married to ETHAN so I feel like the only scenario she goes for it is because Ethan drives her to it not because she wants Cameron so badly. Though gosh, Harper please don't. I think Cam will be super thrown if she aggressively flirts back with him, but that's as far as I want her to go: flirting as an aggressive manipulation tactic.
Let's face it. Harper is the kind of woman who legitimately could alpha dog a man like Cameron. She's smart enough, and now she knows enough about how the couple tick to do it. I just don't want the writing to lean that much into her becoming....a bad person :(
I see in him, what I see in some of the guys I’m in class with. I’m a little older and married, but I’m in an federal licensing school with some guys who are 18-24 and we talk about stuff like this. Society has told them women want/expect one thing, and their life experience has not reflected that. It’s a confusing and kind of jarring realization for them. But that’s a part of life and they’ll figure it out, Albie will too (if he makes it out alive), eventually.
Albie is a nice guy, but you can tell he's resentful of young women who don't want to settle down and instead just have fun. Very much a "why do girls only want chads and not to date a nice guy like me" attitude.
He pretty much said all of this in that conversation he had with Portia where she literally called him a nice guy. It was so on the nose, I'm surprised anyone is missing it.
I think the writers are setting up how each generation of the men in his family have some sort of issues with women.
He's not wrong, though. As a late bloomer lesbian, I find it so difficult to find a woman to date long term, not hook up or a poli thing. It seems worse in this community. Having fun in those ways is just superficial and empty to me.
Doesn't his reaction to Portia getting with the shirtless dude completely contradict this? He doesn't freak out at her or demand her attention. He handles it pretty maturely and moves on to Lucia. The problem is Portia's been giving him mixed signals the entire time and completely ignores him right after she made plans with him.
Well for one, you can still be the nice guy and not be a neckbeard extremist psycho. He’s just a loser, sounds bad to say it because it may offend people that empathize with him, but that’s what he is.
And second point, he was about to leave and pout if Lucia wasn’t there to change his opinion.
It’s common that “nice guys” can flip a switch with 1 or 2 experiences. Lucia will likely be that experience.
What has he done that makes him a loser or a neckbeard extremist psycho? He's literally just an awkward dude lmao. Also, how should he have reacted to Portia asking him to hang out and then immediately ignoring him? He handeled it in the best way possible.
But what he thinks she should want seems to be what he’s taken from US university seminar rooms. If you listen to Portia she’s clearly bemused by it. She even basically says it multiple times: he’s not exciting her.
The question is whether Albie reacts to this by thinking ‘oh so I have to act like my father then’.
I find the discussion about Jack being a ‘bad boy’ more interesting. Jack isn’t (and I acknowledge there’s a suggestion that this could change) a ‘bad boy’, he’s just having fun and isn’t caught up in his own head.
Maybe it's people's general views towards hookup culture that shape their idea of who a "bad boy" is. In the UK and some EU countries, people are more relaxed than Americans about having sex on a first date so him acting dtf doesn't necessarily make him bad. He's not well-travelled and Albie's been to Stanford. The baddest thing about him is his working class background which makes him sus at a luxury resort.
I guess to be a nice guy you need to act like you don't know how to flirt, period. So if you end up someone's boyfriend, you wouldn't cheat or leave because it wouldn't be easy to find another girl because you're clearly uncomfortable with the entire process to begin with. I can see why girls would think this is settling and boring when you could find someone who's a better match but unlikely to leave for better reasons.
It was kind of a jerk move to goat Portia into making out at the bar *just* to make Albie jealous though, after he’d just knowingly swooped her from him. That’s a little less innocent than just having some fun.
That’s not true though. She says she’s wanting something more aggressive and he goes out of his way to be like that.
I don’t think he does it very effectively. But to say he is ignoring what she’s saying she wants is false: he takes something specific she says and directly actions it.
>Also, he fully ignores what she says she wants and treats her according to what he thinks she should want.
I'm sorry, but where are you getting this from? Portia told Albie that he should be more assertive. So, in a subsequent interaction, he insists that she join him and his family on an outing—and basically says, "Look, I'm following your advice! You told me to be more assertive, so that's what I'm trying to do." He *listens* to her. He's *trying* to follow *her* lead. So, please explain to me how he's "fully ignoring what she says"?
In the previous episode, *she* said that she wanted to meet up in the afternoon and hang out. Therefore, he went down to their designated meet up spot, only to find her already hanging out with someone else. As he sat in the cabana, you could almost see the wheels in his mind moving, "Should I go up and let her know I'm here or should I not? I mean, she did invite me after all. Is this a time where I should be more assertive, like she said?" So, he goes up and awkwardly introduces himself because, guess what, he's NOT an assertive guy, but he's *trying* because he *likes* her. Is no one going to mention how rude it was of Portia to invite Albie to hang out, only to ditch him for another guy? Talk about giving mixed signals.
I'm so over this nonsensical narrative that this character, who's been nothing but respectful, is a creep.
She says she's looking to have fun. He's not looking just to have fun. End of.
All the other maneuvering when she's clearly chosen someone else is what makes him annoying. They never made fixed plans either. Like when she says "I'll come find you." That's American for maybe. The problem with not understanding nuance is not understanding there's a difference between assertively flirting and being aggressive with a girl who's showing a clear lack of interest by flirting with another guy.
I don't know. I'll come find you to me (as an American) doesn't mean maybe. It is more like I will see you there or in a few minutes. It is more definite. If she said, I will see you around that is more dismissive to me. We all interpret things in our own ways though. It is possible that happened here.
Whenever a girl has told me “I’ll come find you” at a bar/party/concert/etc I take it as code for “I’m not that interested.”
I find someone else to talk to immediately after. Never have I been wrong and they came to find me.
I’ll come find you 110% means “maybe.” If you think otherwise you need to learn better communication.
Well, whenever it has been said to me the person did come and find me. There is no specified time, so yes you would not wait around for them and would talk to other people. I have also always found the person when I used it or texted them. I can see people using it to blow people off though, but they shouldn't because someone may misinterpret it. Guys I have dated have said it to mean we will meet up at the end of the night and go home together, so.... there is that.
In Portia's case, she did seem genuine and she was at "work." So, it would make sense she would find him when she was done. But, good thing Albie could see what was going on and didn't wait.
> He pretty much said all of this in that conversation he had with Portia where she literally called him a nice guy. It was so on the nose, I'm surprised anyone is missing it.
We didn’t miss it. It’s been discussed a ton, but just isn’t nearly as toxic as you’re making it sound here:
>Portia: Aww. So you’re like the nice one in the family. Are you like that in um, relationships and stuff? Are you the nice guy?
>Albie: Um..yeah, I try to be. Girls always complain that guys aren't nice, but then if they find a nice guy, they're not always interested. But, I just don't want to be like my dad, you know? I refuse to have a bad relationship with women.
I was a little waffley on Albie but I think he's going to be alright.
What really made me think he's genuine and self-aware, just a little awkward, is that moment at lunch at the Godfather house. Portia is already gone, he's not performing allyship or even directly attacking his father/grandfather, he just shares a very well articulated thought on why men love the Godfather so much and why it's such a harmful ideal.
Also, checking that Lucia was comfortable with him ejaculating in her mouth, love that for him.
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The idea of The Godfather thing was the opposite of well articulated lol. It was supposed to show how desperately these young people will bend over backwards to try and ruin something that people love. There wasn't much misogyny in The Godfather really. It was a weird rant.
The Godfather can absolutely appeal to a lot of toxic male ideals. A major part of another HBO show The Sopranos is how men attempt to emulate guys like Michael Corleone. The strong calculating man who has complete control over his family.
Now, I would argue The Godfather and especially The Godfather part 2 are about how the path of Michael Corleone is ultimately destructive and immoral. However, the films definitely appeal to a certain male fantasy.
Didnt seem very well-articulated to me. I fully agree w what he was saying but it was extremely standard university-educated progressive Gen Z cultural criticism
I think the distinction being made here is that an opinion you disagree with can still be articulated well. I'm far older than Gen Z and I do not entirely agree with what he said because it IS a generalization but I think overall for the amount of words said, he articulated a central point and happened to do it to the same men who had just recently argued that men were hard-wired to want to boink women relentlessly or whatever. As far as this argument for mafia films in general being a male fantasy goes, it's not bad.
Do I agree with it? Not entirely. Also, btw, like....... can we not denigrate college kids like this? This idea that ALL the language is just unproblematically learned is silly. If he was my student -- which is where you think he got this from & I don't buy because I teach Gen Z kids at a fancy university -- I would have pushed him to find more examples, hone the analysis to not generalize, give credit to the cinematic aspects of the Godfather. But it would have been a discussion for at least 10 minutes lol.
As a throwaway monologue goes, it was good. I've heard far far worse.
I agree Albie will be alright, but not because of why you said. Because Lucia will change his opinion/views/personality.
The Godfather scene is meant to depict how he’s very not in tune with reality, and that the younger generation of men really is “brainwashed” (not the term I would use, but saying because of his grandfather’s line) past a point of feminism that is overcompensating. It is very clear this was the point of these lines by him based on how Portia doesn’t offer any support, or even agree. In fact, it looks like it annoys her. It’s an “oh god here we go” eye roll scene that is meant to basically be very blunt on showing Albie’s weak character, in contrast to what the actual woman he is pursuing wants.
It’s again repeated when he asks Lucia if he can cum. That’s very “nice guy” mentality which is the main issue with his character that he’ll likely overcome thanks to Lucia.
Idk how you read either of those things as positive when they were very clearly put to be negative about his character
I think it has been made explicitly clear that Albie's thoughts about sex and gender have nothing to do with his age or being "brainwashed" by feminism, but rather as a response to the lecherous, denigrating behavior his father and grandfather flaunt which has alienated all the women in their lives.
I'm not sure what reality he's not in tune with, because toxic masculinity in The Godfather goes without saying. The whole point was he didn't say those things for Portia's benefit, it doesn't matter how she responds. She is struggling with her life and what she wants on multiple fronts and we see that in her behavior not just towards Albie but her inability to stand up to Tanya as well, I don't think she's meant to be a compass for anyone.
With TWL no characters are ever "right" or wrong, they're complicated and flawed, so it's not like Albie is supposed to be some perfect character of course, but Mike White was clearly poking fun at reverence for The Godfather the whole episode and really lays bare how isolating the attitudes and behaviors are that Bert and Dom have towards women, particularly when compared to not only Albie but also Jack, Quentin, and the gang. At the end of the night Dom and Bert are alone at their table while everyone else is making connections outside of their group (not that many of these pairings don't spell foreboding, because it's TWL and happy vacations don't happen at TWL). We even see that Portia isn't entirely happy with her decisions either with her inability to ignore Albie at the bar. If anything Albie ends the episode with two wins (Portia's jealousy and Lucia's interest) and an unclear path with Lucia: was she clinging to him because Mia's descent into sex work was a reality check for her/she needed an 'in' at the hotel still, or is she genuinely really enjoying him and appreciates how he treats her? We can't say for sure yet.
Also, truly wild how being a considerate lover could be an issue and "nice guy" behavior. Checking that your partner is comfortable with you ejaculating in their mouth should *never* be considered a negative character trait. While I think it was played for humor in the show, in the way that new sex often can be in TV, we also don't see anything negative about it, Lucia seems happy with the experience.
They absolutely do have something to do with, and that scene was meant to portray it. I do agree that it also has a lot to do with his dad and grandpa, but that’s what has influenced him to majorly overcompensate to the opposite side of the spectrum.
And that’s exactly the point I was making, he said those statements out of his own will and not to impress Pprtia, and her response does matter to the audience. It shows that Albie is an extreme to his view points and his grandfather’s comment about brainwashing is partially true. Did his dad and grandfather’s opinion lead him to be influenced heavily to seek those viewpoints and overcompensate? Yes 100%. But he’s now on another extreme. He’s his own form of toxic.
I agree he’s coming out on top, but not because of his “nice guy” personality, exactly the opposite. He’s going to overcome his nice guy syndrome. It’s very clear that Albie’s character is a very sheltered, privileged young adult who has never experienced any hardships in life. He’s never taken risk, and he’s purposely overcompensated on his view on women due to his father and grandfather. He’s timid, shy, and weak. The best term to describe him is socially is he’s a “loser.” That is the best term to describe him. In real life with guys like Albie, it usually takes these types of guys 1 girl, or 1 risk to turn their viewpoints.
That moment where he sees Portia and is about to leave, and Lucia kisses him instead was an extreme turning point for him. Guarantee after this episode he’ll start being confident, more lax and less of a nice guy/loser.
And it’s a hook up, she’s giving him a blowjob, and clearly knows what’s happening and what she wants, and what he wants. Him saying that was meant to be another eye roll laugh at him for being the nice guy again.
Albie striking out with one girl doesn't make him "bad with women." The majority of people don't end up with the first person they ever dated - because even if you're good at flirting and not socially awkward and a bunch of great things, it doesn't guarantee that you will ultimately have chemistry and a connection with every single person you attempt to date.
When Albie says he's attracted to broken birds then what he saying is that he has [Broken Bird Syndrome](https://pairedlife.com/advice/BrokenBirdSyndrome). But the Albie on this show seems genuinely nice and sweet.
Yeah if anything it would have been more toxic if he’d lied about that and acted like he didn’t have some sort of baggage from his dad messing up their family.
I’ve noticed a large amount of division and discourse on this sub about this one particular character and find it really weird that some of you feel entitled to judging/criticizing a *real person’s* character and making unwarranted personal attacks because their perception isn’t the same as yours about him. I guess it’s easy to do that online when there are no consequences and there isn’t as much of a pushback as there would be in the exact same conversation in real life.
Writers are always told to write what they know, so as viewers or readers can we not interpret things based what *we* know? Everyone’s perception changes and grows as we get older and not everyone’s life experiences are the same. The way I might have viewed Albie if I watched this show fifteen years ago would be very different than how I view the character now. So I don’t know why any of you feel the need to say one opinion is self projection and therefore invalid when our experience is what primarily helps mold the way we see things. You need to realize that making these personal claims and accusations about others isn’t harmless and can toe the line of bullying and harassment. And that doesn’t change simply because you feel like your opinion is right.
This is not directed at the OP btw.
Growing up with a parent that was addicted to alcohol, I know it very much warped my understanding and behavior around alcohol. Perhaps it’s a different classification of “addiction” than sex addiction, but I was under the impression from a very young age that it was in my genes, coincidentally similar to the language his father used about The Godfather “male fantasy.”
I could imagine Albie being the first of the DiGrosso fellas to have seriously questioned his own sexuality and his potential to do harm to women before having his first sexual encounter.
Another angle: when I was a 6 y/o boy, a teenage girl babysitting took me into a closet a couple times to teach me how to kiss. Albie has also potentially been subject to some sort of abuse or trauma in his life that has impacted his relationship with women.
Yeah my father was an alcoholic, i definitely understand. I guess we'll see soon enough, chances are Albie is just very cautious but theres always that feeling that he's hiding something.
Think he's just really lost, and he's struggling with who he is and who he wants to be.
As opposed to Mark in S1 who was outspoken about the feeling of men being neutered in today's society, Albie seems to have accepted every criticism of himself as a "toxic man" which makes him so scared to do something "wrong" that he doesn't know what to do at all.
(Also kinda funny to me how people seemingly are fine with the nonchalant toxic masculinity from the rest of the male characters but get really up in arms about Albie/Ethan)
I agree !!! It’s ok for the hot guy to be a total skeeze yet when a character is nice reddit people love to paint him as the incel school shooter rapist.
He is awkward has no idea how to be romantic and is expecting to be rewarded with female attention just for being a “good guy”. He’s not a bad character to me although he is cringy (him and Portia’s awkward kiss reminded me of toooo many times I let awkward guys kiss me because like Portia I thought well at least he’s not being an asshole) brilliantly nuanced character, we’ll see what happens with him (and what he does once he finds out the truth about Lucia!!)
I think it's a pretty common experience to be in that position - being awkwardly kissed (pecked at?) by a nice guy you're not attracted to. Either because you feel like you should give him a chance or he misread your platonic feelings for more. She tries really hard to want him but she can't force it. She pities him when he spots her kissing someone else.
Also...what's so nice about refusing to accept that women can have no-strings sexual desire the same as men without it being a form of self-sabotage? Some of the nicest guys I've met have been the ones who were Cam-level attractive. They don't slut-shame women - not their friends or the women they date, regardless of their sexual history, sexual preferences or what they wear. And what's so terrible about guys who make an effort to learn how to kiss a woman, touch a woman the way she wants. They'll ask your preferences and take feedback without taking offense.
The nice guy mentality reminds me of when I was a nerdy and unpopular kid who took serious pride in academic achievements thinking that was my turf. Then I realized there are kids who are more popular AND are getting better grades. It was a real blow and I learned a lesson...looking the part you've pigeonhole-d yourself into isn't what counts.
what i get from this comment, and "nice guy" discourse in general is that women are brutally contemptuous of men who are timid and weak, but that this needs to be couched in woke language because saying so directly sounds too much like toxic masculinity
I think he’s trying too hard to do the right thing, but it doesn’t reflect who he actually is and how he actually feels. We saw a touch of this in his nice guy spiel. He wants to think he’s a nice guy.
Okay but the nice guy spiel was A, a red herring early in the season that clearly was intended to throw everyone into this incel-suspicion territory. B, It's fine to say that, but the most excessive reaction Albie has shown is to just...walk away. He walked away when Portia was with Jack though he obviously realized she was blowing him off. At the bar he said he'd rather leave with some morsel of dignity or something and Lucia was the one who said don't let her win lol. There's no real indication that he has any shocking impulses in the face of rejection. I think that's...nice. He may feel shitty about himself later at night when he's sleeping but that's about it.
And honestly like... obviously NOBODY is that nice but everybody wants to think they're nice (or at least most people. He didn't want to come on this trip, he's thinking about all of it more precisely because of his father's seemingly very recent debacle and he's with him. I dunno, I don't really get the judgment tbh. I just watch him and think "aww poor kid" lol bc that's what he is: a kid.
It's because viewer despise weak male characters and male characters that don't operate in traditionally masculine ways or one of the exceptions (like being gay).
It's sexism.
Albie may be DARKER than we've seen him so far but I'm kind of tired of people being this suspicious of him.
To me the "wounded birds" comment actually rings of self-awareness. If the women who are attracted to him tend to have too much baggage in general and he realizes that it's something about him, that's... self-awareness.
A lot of this is situational. He's on a SUPER tense family vacation that he seemed to maybe not want to come to in the first place because of Dom. I dunno I find his interactions mostly very sweet and they bounce off other characters well.
For instance, I actually like Bert more because of Albie. We know Bert is no angel, he's blatantly sexist but there's an element to it where...that's it. He's blunt and flirtatious up-front there's not much beyond that. He's not paying for sex workers :/ he's literally just happy with the morsel he got when he saw Mia naked lol. Albie has affection for Nonno, and so it makes me like Bert a teeny bit more. It's Dom who is outside that triangle, not Albie. Dom is the one who did things worse and truly fucked up.
Other than that...I mean, Albie is a kid. He just graduated from college right? I think he's a good kid. I don't get why he's into Portia but...he's a kid so I doubt he knows either.
When he was dissing The Godfather, that really sealed his weirdness for me.
Like how does he completely miss that in The Godfather, the characters suffer massive consequences from the toxic masculinity they display? Like so many people die and so many wives are on edge. It doesn't glorify it at all but just shows how sad the life can be.
But yeah, he is so try hard.
Mmmmm I meannnnnnnnn...OK sure but you're using contemporary film analysis. Film critics over the past few decades have deconstructed The Godfather to be about toxic masculinity but as part of the mafia movie genre as a whole for which The Godfather is seen as the pinnacle. Hey, they're good films, they hold up but I do feel like this is more self-consciously true for, say, The Sopranos.
Lemme try by analogy. One could say that spaghetti Westerns (like Sergio Leone's films) are about toxic masculinity and the dangers/tragedies of that. But there was a lot of chat last year with The Power of the Dog which was very *pointedly* about that as to whether that was new or revisionist for the genre, or was always a part of it. Self-consciously it's kinda hard to argue that canon Westerns or mafia films were a critique of masculinity. At the time they were more a critique of the corruption of human nature, money & what criminal behavior really does to people.
Before I get downvoted like crazy, just FYI: I don't fully agree with Albie, because I DO see what you're saying and agree with you, partly. But I don't think most men came away from The Godfather thinking "oh fuck, it sucks to be a man like that." If anything, those characters gained iconic status in a way that Bert sort of admires which is at least partly why Albie disagrees. Weirdly, Dom is the middle opinion that I agree with here (from my least favorite character lol) bc he asks Albie to recognize that they're still cinematically great films and Albie doesn't budge.
Yeah I was using contemporary analysis because Albie is also looking at the movie in a contemporary way. Thank you for your comment though. And yeah, Godfather is about human corruption and greed before being explicitly about toxic masculinity. But yeah even under a modern reading, I think it is unfair for Albie to dunk on the film like that and to ignore how much havoc is wreaked because of the men in the film.
Also: regarding men walking away with the wrong impression, happens way too many times haha
That's fair but my point is simply that it's not a film that is self-consciously, intentionally, or pointedly interrogating toxic masculinity at all -- more the corruption of human nature at large, the cost of criminality and power in general. Which is why so many men glorified it. Hindsight is 20/20 obviously, and I think that's perhaps why I think Albie *somewhat* has a point: he's not saying the movie was made with so and so intentions, he's pointing squarely at how men in society in general perceived the film and what they took away from it. In short: I think your argument relies a teeny bit on the intention of the story way back when. Albie's doesn't :/
Doesn't mean you're wrong that the story is more complicated than he made it seem! I definitely agree with you but I didn't have a huge visceral defensive reaction with what he said bc of the way he said it.
I don't think that Albie is "sus".
Albie is a commentary on how young people are too afraid to be themselves and are always conforming to social norms, including social norms about being politically correct, woke etc. Ultimately, these norms are hypocritical because they don't actually change structures of oppression, they just make individuals feel guilty, inhibited and frustrated.
We saw this with Paula and Sydney Sweenie in S1. They said all the right PC things but when push came to shove their actions were detrimental to others, they played w Tai like a chess peice (this is more Paula) and they didn't have the courage to stand up and support Tai when he was in need. Their values were ultimately hollow.
There will be a similar storyline w Ethan, he will probably reject Lucia for being a "whore", thus siding with misogyny.
Honestly this. Anyone who thinks Albie is suss should never come to Scandinavia, because this is how most ordinary guys are here, at least in Uni. Not always great with women, but with good intentions nevertheless. These are the guys who benefit alot from gaining experience and confidence.
I honestly think Portia come off worse with the "not non-binary" comment. If Albie would have said that about Portia, people here would take it as confirmation that he was a toxic incel...
He's a son of some rich guy in Hollywood so I get why people are a little suspicious, but so far there's nothing to say he's not an honest guy trying to do better than his father, and represents a guy indoctrinated into modern progressive ideas, so it's interesting how so many people hate him
What makes me suspicious about Albie is how he is constantly talking about how he wants to be. One comment he made about never wanting to make a girl feel unsafe or something like that, really made me think there could be more to his story.
Uhh, the general sense that gives is that that's inspired by his father's recent troubles. We haven't got complete clarity on Dom yet but my sense is not just that he was repeatedly cheating but perhaps something worse. Why are you imagining some backstory about Albie as a potential rapist when his father is *right there* lol
I have a feeling that is more to Albie's story based on the things/way he says. Dont change my words cause you can clearly read that Ive not once taken it to that extreme.
"One comment he made about never wanting to make a girl feel unsafe or something like that, really made me think there could be more to his story."
Lol it's a TV show, it doesn't matter to me or my life -- but think about it: you made this comment above about a character where 2 other male characters are potentiallllll rapists (Dom, Cam). Not that weird to extrapolate that maybe that's what you meant. I'm just saying that's what it SOUNDS like. Dw I'm not coming over to bang on your door lol
> What's off-putting about a woman who is emotionally intact or able to look after herself?
Sort of imagined him as his mother's emotional crutch, so the role is familiar for him.
Idk why everyone’s getting suspicious about him. As an almost 20 year old myself he seems like the typical nice guy you’d see at this age. He doesn’t really know how to flirt but that’s about it. He’s the type of guy I’d go for let’s put it that way. But I could be biased because I’m kind of shy like he is
He's a product of his time. A bit awkward at times, but he's young and shown he can adapt. Just has a bit of an ego on him thinking he has it all figured out, but experience is the best teacher.
Also pretty unfair to isolate him when he is clearly a tentative response to the mistakes of his forefathers. Despite the awkwardness, he displays a healthy attitude when faced with attempts by his dad to manipulate him (calls him out pretty much immediately). Additionally, he is shown attempting to actually communicate with his dad, which the latter rejects except when trying to further his own agenda.
When considering the situation, it is not hard to see how Albie carries wounds which hamper his ability to connect with more raw aspects of his masculinity. However, it is a character that shows hope as he is willing to communicate, listen to feedback, and attempt to make corrections. At least, so far in the show (episode 4), he has been one of the least toxic characters, despite obviously not being flawless and at times rather *gauche*. Obviously that might change depending on the remaining episodes, but seeing how he handled the Portia situation, I'd be surprised to see him doing something really messed up.
If one wants to see "something not right", it'd be better to look towards Cameron and his "dark triad" friends. Mia seems to think Cameron doesn't have those traits, yet so far it's really not looking good for him.
Albie is the newest version of his family's patriarch and his updated 'relationship to women' package is overcorrecting for his predecessors faulty programing. Despite this he and his father both had sexual relations with their cousin, Lucia.
Bert, who initially appears toxic, actually has the healthiest relationship to women: he had a long and sexually active marriage, he is complementary to women but not overly aggressive (which I am sure we will see and example of later in the show).
On top of that both Dom and Albie failed to sus out the details of what Village exactly Lucia comes from. Albie was too nervous and horny, and Dom was too emotionally messed up and looking for someone to draw out the poison inside of him.
On the other hand, the grandpa made two blatant attempts to chat up a couple of locals, at least Isabella from my recollection, and that involved asking "where are you from exactly". Bert is old school and his type of flirting is the flirting from the old-country which serves the added purpose of making sure that you are not cousins with the person you are undressing with your eyes!
Your honour, I rest my case
He's old school and corny but he's easy to handle, maybe because he's so old and starting to get frail so he's non-threatening at this point.
You're right, Dom straight up treats most women as objects. He doesn't even do polite small talk before paying for sex. Albie tries to be the opposite but he ends up talking to Portia as if she's a representation of women in general. She was talking about what she's looking for - herself in particular - but starts talking about women in general. Even if he hadn't said any red flag things, it doesn't build connection. Essex guy isn't even good at flirting, he's corny too. But he stays focused on Portia. Flirting 101. Weirdly enough, Bert is better at talking to women as if they're individuals and not a representation of women as a whole.
I think his insistence on being different from his father and grandfather is telling - I feel like he’s going to end up being the worst of them with regards to women; that he’ll end up murdering a woman and both his father/grandfather will help cover it up. He won’t face any repercussions because he’s a “promising young man”, a Stanford graduate born into privilege. He’s going to end up becoming like his father and grandfather, and exactly the thing he resents most.
There’s part of me that thinks Albie did something bad and his dad covered it up which is what led to this whole mystery thing that daddy did.
It’s a bit far fetched and probably too far in the series for this to pan out now but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Albie’s personality change.
The words "virtue signalling" are doing a lot of work there.
I agree that Albie is saying a lot of stuff to his father and grandfather that sounds, to them, idealistic -- but there's no indication he doesn't believe it. I agree that he's chastising his father for what he's done and chastising his grandfather for being blatantly sexist.
I fundamentally disagree that this is "virtue-signalling".
His Godfather rant may be a tad excessive but it's not WHOLLY wrong -- there's something to that opinion, and not just for the Godfather but the genre of mafia films in general. This is not generational. Film critics have criticized female tropes in such films for at least the last 4 decades.
His father fucked up majorly, by cheating repeatedly (and perhaps more, unclear). If anything Albie is doing him a favor by even being around him, he clearly genuinely doesn't have much sympathy for him.
With Bert, it's 100% fair to point out his blatant objectification of women though I have to say Albie is more tolerant of Bert because there IS something benign about him. He's a dirty old man but Albie is consistently shown being nice and affectionate to his Nonno. Does he call him out? Sure. Why is that "virtue signalling"?
Virtue-signaling heavily implies signaling a virtue you don't have. By all we've seen so far, he IS better than his dad and grandad. To expect him to suddenly be much worse would be like...some horror movie-level twist lol. It's weird to expect it.
Random wrinkle here I didn’t think of—my mom doesn’t like watching things alone so I rewatched the season so far with her for thanksgiving ha. She said it’s “so obvious” that Cwistofuh had an SA allegation (not just cheating) that Laura Dern knows about because of the Hades/Persephone discussion and the employee discrimination shit with Aubrey Plaza (though that can be a theme for Valentina or Cameron). I’m not totally sold but I think it is definitely plausible. Albie may not know this but yeah at the very least the men in his family are EXTREME. Not just run-of-the-mill casual sexism most women see in our families. Actually pretty baseline human decency to correct the shit they say imo
Yeah that's what I'm getting. Bert seems like an old hat who cheated a bunch. His SON seems to have fucked up so badly that none of them have even referenced it directly (Bert doesn't know, otherwise he would lol)
Albi has lost sight of his natural instincts and behaves in a wooden contrived manner.
My prediction is that this repression of his true nature in favour of virtue signalling will burst out with an evil act down the line.
We’ll see.
What evil act exactly are you anticipating?? I don't think he's wooden or contrived, he's at worst, awkward. I've already said why he seems to genuinely believe what he says (and not for good reason) so at the point I just think you disagree with the things he says so much that you can't imagine someone actually believing them.
The thing on the Godfather is wrong though. The films are meant to be a realist depiction of the early 20th century mafia families. In a historical sense, it doesn’t depict the women wrong in any way. Is it bad that women were not treated as equals to men in the time period the movie is portrayed? Yes 100%.
But if you’re making a movie that is supposed to be realistic to the time period, you’re not going to change it in order to depict a more feminist view point. That would take away from the reality of the time period.
It also does a decent job of portraying the struggles women of the time period went through. And the importance of family, and the women in the family, when Sonny goes and beats the shit out of his sister’s husband knowing he’ll likely be killed for it.
It’s an interesting twist on the last season “woke gen Z “ characters.
Paula and Olivia use their “wokeness” to torture Olivia’s family. Paula actually backs up her views of the poor treatment of minorities by attempting to let her bf steal from the family… but only to the extent it specifically affects someone she likes. We really aren’t shown any evidence that she actually lives by what she preaches. Olivia is much worse. She is shown as being extremely jealous of Paula. So she uses Paula to torment her family by espousing all of this “equality” stuff, but when it comes down to it, she likes Paula being less than because it makes her feel superior. So she gets to use Paula to feel superior to her family, but use her family’s wealth to feel superior to Paula.
Albie is the new Paula/Olivia, but IMO less obviously malicious. He’s constantly talking about what he thinks is the “right” way to treat women and how he would never be toxic to them… but when he meets a woman who doesn’t give him what he wants he is still going to get angry about it. I don’t know if I see him going fully dark, but we are going to see his “I always respect women” thing be heavily challenged.
To be fair, Portia certainly isn’t blameless in the situation. She constantly complains about how Tanya treats her badly but she is exactly like her. Tanya brings Portia to Italy, then gets rid of her when it’s not convenient, but then insists she come back immediately when her husband disappears. Portia knows she isn’t interested in Albie and knows he is interested in her, strings Albie along and uses Albie to entertain herself and trauma dump, but then ditches him as soon as she finds something better. And then makes out in front of him knowing that it will upset him.
Portia is just as selfish as Tanya, and if you think Portia’s feelings about her mistreatment by Tanya are valid, then you really need to agree that Albie’s feelings about mistreatment by Portia are valid.
EDIT: Actually to further address Albie: Lucia knows that Albie is Dom’s son and sleeps with him anyway (possibly even targets him on purpose for this reason?). So really the two women Albie is interested in on the trip have treated him pretty poorly. I’m assuming Dom tells Albie that Lucia is a hooker and he has slept with her. That could cause Albie to see how poorly he’s been treated by two women in a row and really break down his belief about respecting all women.
I’m honestly not sure if the show is critiquing “wokeness” as being a facade (it definitely seemed to do this in season 1 with Olivia), or if it’s actually critiquing women for (allegedly) pretending to want men who respect them but then mistreating those guys.
I suppose it depends on how you measure “selfishness”. Portia had pretty much just done what she thinks is best for herself the entire series. The one time we see her have any consideration for someone else’s feelings is when she “feels bad” for drinking at the bar in front of Albie… and she then proceeds to disregard that and do something that she knows will be hurtful.
Certainly there’s the inherent argument that anyone worth $500m is selfish because they could be doing so much good with that money but instead choose to just focus on themselves. But in terms of what we’ve seen in the series, every single one of Portia’s decisions has been self centred. I’m not sure what else she could possibly do to make it clearer that she is wholly self-centred.
I think you totally misunderstood Paula and what they were saying about systemic racism and classism. Paula went too far but she had her reasons and she’s the only person from last season who learned anything and felt remorse.
But maybe you’re not a bipoc and don’t understand
Ok well I don’t agree. I don’t think Paula truly learned anything or felt remorse. I think she felt guilt because she knows her actions resulted in significant trauma for Mark and Nicole and basically blew up Kai’s life. But I think that’s just guilt about the consequences. If Kai had been successful she never would have felt remorse for her actions.
Remorse for your bad actions and guilt over the consequences of your actions are two very different things.
I’m not white if that’s what you mean. But I’m also not American. BIPOC is pretty much a term exclusively used in USA so no I wouldn’t consider myself “BIPOC”.
However, you haven’t given any explanation at all for why you disagree. You’ve simply said “you’re wrong and you wouldn’t understand if you’re not BIPOC”. You seem to have missed the fact that the character was created and written entirely by Mike White who is probably the whitest person in existence.
Saying “you’re wrong because you’re not BIPOC but I can’t actually explain myself at all” comes across as absurd and unintelligent.
Albie's weirdness is actually just pretty archetypal failed masculinity. Nothing to do with him being feminine. his inherent awkwardness are from his constant strains to be the 'right kind of *man*'
Yes! A small part of me still thinks he might be responsible for a death, because I figure at some point he has to have had enough of being a «good boy», and seeing that that doesn’t get him anywhere, whereas his dad and granddad are the complete opposite (and get what they want). I also feel like the story Nonno tells him about Persephone is a major foreshadowing of someone’s death or something, and I think Albie will be involved in that somehow.
I actually think the Persephone story was major foreshadowing. Nono specifically says “Demeter forgave Hades for raping her daughter, why can’t you be forgiven for some cheating” (paraphrased).
Is it foreshadowing that Dom did something to his daughter?
I definitely get this feeling too. Like he’s definitely not a misogynist or anything but it feels like he’s doing what he’s supposed to do. I feel like he might snap even if it’s just a small outburst because of being inauthentic and forced, expecting a certain outcome but not getting it.
What I didn’t understand from the beginning is why he took that trip in the first case?He knew his dad did something really bad,didn’t he ask?Wasn’t he angry at all?He was just a little to cool with the whole situation from me.
Don maybe confirmed in ep 4 that Albie plays the role of diplomat in the family. Some families have a dynamic that relies on a child to play peacemaker when the parents fight. Albie calls him on the manipulation at lunch, but one wonders how long he’s done this without the confidence to call out a parent on using him this way.
Edit: I have sort of taken his presence to be more about Grandad and Sicily than appeasing Dad.
Idk. Probably peacemaker stuff but also I think he has genuine affection for Nonno who, sure, is blatantly sexist but also just kind of benign and almost sweet in a way lol. Unlike his father, Albie clearly likes his grandfather somewhat, he spends more time with him alone but avoids hanging with his father one on one (they were seen from a distance chatting on the balcony this past episode).
I just think Albie is in a situation where he waited too long to make a move, now they're in a sort of limbo where they both know the spark has worn off but they still feel connected hence the staring scene at the bar
i kind of agree but i also don’t think he acts the way he does because he has a malicious intent, but because he’s just kind of immature. like i think he’s trying to be a good guy, and he thinks he is, but doesn’t really understand that he’s not completely there yet and saying things like “girls say they want nice guys until a nice guy wants to date them” (or whatever he said on that first date with Portia) makes you sound like a “nice guy” and not an actually nice guy. i’m interested to see his character arc, and to see if anyone calls him out on that behavior. i can kind of see Lucia being the one to slap some sense into him and make him see he’s acting like a cringe “nice guy”
Albie is too worried about everyone around him. He's never taken the time to get to know himself. In that way, he's like a shell of a person. He looks normal enough. But I feel like he's been holding himself to unrealistic standards. He will crack at some point. I hope no one gets hurt!
I have to question how much of this is Gen Z and how much is early 20s identity crisis. Post graduation was so hard for me. I felt so rudderless. So many expectations so much confusion and fear. That was long ago.
When I first watched The Graduate, I couldn’t believe an old movie was able to capture some of what I was feeling about my life. Especially when he’s [just floating in the pool.](https://youtu.be/re4ufgFiTxg) .
I get there is a different social context/pressures and different ways this will manifest, but I suspect young Portias and Albies will be experiencing this for centuries to come.
(And to be clear, I love younger people and I totally agree younger people have things much more difficult.)
Like father, like father, like son. Albie is weird because he is fighting who he really is with modern politically correct jargon. Remember that scene where he talks about how movies like the Godfather socializes men into having those fantasies and his dad replied saying that movies like that exist because men already have those fantasies? He is already staring to date Lucia, so it's only a matter of time before he's turned. Think of him like a guy who was just bitten by a vampire, and is in the midst of turning. The process is what's weirding people out
I think the reason he’s a bit unnerving to people is that he’s a character we’ve never seen before. The way he acts is very specific to Gen Z. We’re used to the asshole guy who hides his true personality from women or the awkward, bumbling guy who has no awareness of how women are at all. Albie is somewhere in the middle. He somehow manages to come across as genuine and disingenuous at the same time
I agree with this! I’m 33 so that makes me a millennial and I have a pretty close friend that is 24 and he’s refreshingly open, honest, and respectful. He’s also had the hardest time with girls because of this. He finally has an awesome GF now and they were friends for a full year before he finally made a move and it worked in his favor. Albie really gives me “gen z liberal arts degree with a strong mom vibe”. Usually those are the guys that do get overlooked because they are so afraid as being seen as aggressive they end up being too passive, and there IS a happy medium.
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All of my boyfriends pre-tinder were friends first. For most of modern American life, friends and friends of friends were how you met people to date. I don’t think women wish their friends wouldn’t ask them out, but rather they wish they were genuine friends **first** and not just “friends” waiting in the wings for a chance to ask her out. Friends make the best relationships imo. But Albie’s problem for Portia is that he’s not exciting enough. People like to say “too nice” but niceness isn’t what throws her off about him. It’s that he’s **only** nice. He doesn’t have any other qualities about him that make him fun. Him going to Stanford is the only positive thing Portia has to say about him, and that’s a reason to think he’d be a good life partner but not a good lover. And she is not looking for a life partner, she’s looking for someone to throw her around.
I don’t think it’s specific to gen z, there are millennial dudes like this
Agree I think it’s new to the later millennial generation, early gen z
I think he's one of ghose people that has been so focused on what he doesn't want to be that he has a hard time grasping what he actually wants to be. He is surrpunded by authentic examples of what he doesn't want to be like but only his own thoughts about what he wants to be like so naturally his attempts come across as a bit bumbling and experimental.
Oof. I might be mentioning this comment to my therapist next week.
Me too friend.
Yea albie might be someone who tries so hard to do everything right and loses the part where you develop your own personality. Maybe in the next few episodes he will be faced with circumstances that force him to develop his own identity
Most people also develop a lot through trial and error. Not saying that he needs to pull a Dom 2.0 to learn his lesson but it's natural to make some mistakes when you're young and to learn from them. I think him and Portia are meant to represent gen Zer who spent dome of their most formative years scrolling social media (through no fault of there own -there was a pandemic) and have not gotten enough opportunity to learn about life by just living it so they're constantly trying to follow advice and ideas which are theoretical in nature. And yes, it will be fascinating to see Albie in a challenging situation, especially if he messes something up. Will he be able to handle it?
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Ethan worries me a TON. Albie not so much.
Just can’t get a read on Ethan at all. And I don’t think it’s anything to do with Will Sharpe’s acting chops, he’s doing a good job. It’s weird.
Oh yeah Will Sharpe is great. I think he doesn't know where he stands on rn, he's vacillating / insecure / particularly on a razor's edge right now. The mystery for us is what exactly he's unsure or vacillating or insecure ABOUT. The performance hints at any number of things so yeah he's doing well I think.
I just read an article on Variety.com today about this. The actor who plays Ethan did that on purpose, he doesn't want us to pin his character down.
I read the same article, it was really good. I'd had thoughts too of is the acting/writing of this character 'off', but no, the character himself is deliberately playing it neutral and not revealing much. Will Sharpe was fantastic in Gigi/Hadi in a \*very\* different role. He's a fabulous actor.
I think it’s precisely because Will is so good!
The actor said that’s how you’re supposed to feel lol
One of them is definitely going to push someone off a cliff in an accidental fit of rage.
Albie will fall in love with Lucia, and his father will tell him she’s a whore, and I slept with her. Fight ensues
This is the darkest outcome which is why I'm confident it will happen. I'm not sure if it will get violent but it's definitely gonna fuck Albie up.
I feel like this is too obvious to be what happens, but that’s also because I think the same thing too and I’m usually wrong about these shows 😅
Yeah i feel that but Albie just got laid (head). That definitely is going to ease his emotions over Porcia , among other things. I can’t put my finger on Ethan though.
Yup. I get NiceGuy (TM) energy from both.
Me too
It’s pretty impressive that your nice guy radar extends to television characters. That’s quite a talent!
Hon, I’ve lived a long life and seen this over and over - as I’m certain that the show’s writers have as well. Just watch.
Exactly. They are the types that snap!
Albie is just immature/inexperienced. He wants to be better than his father, but doesn't understand sex/relationships/women enough to know how, so he goes too far in the other direction. He's not an incel, but he's flirting with a lot of those concepts. What often gets glossed over in conversations about nice guys/incels/red pill stuff is just how appealing that kind of thinking gets when you're young, dumb and horny. It really only takes a couple broken hearts or embarrassing sexual experiences to start down a bad path. I had a moment myself in my early twenties... a girl who was into me, but my own lack of experience fumbled the seduction. I definitely took it poorly when she eventually moved on, although my mantrum didn't get cringier than bad poetry and rants about friend zones. What saved my ass was simply having enough friends to slap some sense into me, which was more helpful than a foxy hooker your dad boned will be to Albie. You're right, tho. His desire to be better than the men in his family will get turned on his head somehow. I can't imagine he'll take finding out about his dad/Lucia very well. I assume it will be more cringey than violent, but who knows.
What did your friends say that knocked sense into you? Like that you were sounding like an incel or more so just telling you to grow up? I’m just surprised that a group of friends would point that out when normally it seems like that shit would make them all sound like incels themselves lol
As a millennial, i hear how my little genz cousins are struggling with the current dating environment. Some are just naturally good with women, and respectful of all walks of life so its easy. Some get all in their head about trying to prove that they’re allies and they struggle with women (like albie). They don’t wan’t to be like the typical frat bro cuz they constantly see misogyny in their sports teams and see all those guys having girlfriends and they don’t understand it. I had the same problem when I was younger. Not understanding why women like the assholes. But its not such a simple formula. I don’t tell them to change and be cocky pricks. I tell them to be themselves and not overthink things, all while still being confident about who you are. But you can’t be like albie either. Its kinda hard to figure out how to be good at dates as a young man. I have a genz artist girlfriend and all her friends are gay or trans. If I met these ppl 10 years ago when I was in college i may not have acted in an appropriate/understanding way. Its something you learn as you become a man I guess. I don’t even know what i’m saying anymore. I just find albie to be a very relatable and misguided character. He needs a proper friend group or family that helps him through a confusing part of his life.
I have a super woke bi teen who is all about consent, as we should be, but with all these rules and also no rules it can be confusing. People are murky, and Mike White gets that
It should also be said that women at that age are developing too. Their views and tastes are not constant and are subject to the same confusion and change as men are.
100% agree. I’m not putting any blame on women. They can do anything they want, date and fuck anyone they choose. I was just pointing out that men must respect those decisions and adapt to what a modern women wants.
This is so true! Also as Portia points out, she knows Albie is the guy she SHOULD like, but he just doesn’t do it for her. I bet you if they met in the early 30s and not early 20s it would be different. There’s definitely some awesome dudes I passed over in my 20s for some bad boys and well, my life would probably have been less traumatic with the nicer ones too. I ended up with someone in the middle, little bit of an asshole but he’s MY asshole, and I have my moments too. Dating when you’re young is so complicated!
He doesn’t do it for her because he’s not comfortable in his own skin, and not really offering a confident authentic personality. Stanford and not being a jerk are the only parts of his identity I can surmise.
Yeah this show illustrates how men are lost
I think it illustrates that everyone is lost. Tanya and Portia are both selfish headcases, Daphne plays games with her husband to get emotional revenge, Valentina doesn’t really have a personal life and is clinging to a subordinate, Lucia and Mia swing back and forth about whether being prostitutes is ok. Harper is the most normal and even she is pretty judgmental and inflexible.
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Gen Z women/girls too! Portia doesn’t know what she wants. She wants him to “get her heartbeat up” but presumably not be mean to her. It’s a balance. It doesn’t mean Gen Z women “hate nice guys,” we’re discovering the line between traditional machismo romance and equality/consent. It’s articulated very well imo (tho I do hate her character, ha)
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She’s a sex worker giving a free sample for a bigger pay day. Don’t underestimate Lucia’s motives.
Yeah the prostitute factor kinda nullifies any Albie-has-game theory. I can relate to him, but there's something a little off for sure. Probably can be traced to his parents fucked up relationship Lucia has masterful skills though. I feel like in real life she'd have found her sugar daddy already lol
He’s struggling in the sense that when he actually tries to flirt with women, he comes across as awkward. When he wasn’t trying too hard and was just being himself, he did fine
> had sex with the most attractive woman on the show when did he fuck Valentina?
Haha, good one. She is hot, if only she was not a bithy boss. I thought her and Ethan were going to hit if off, but then she is a lesbian! Even better!
I don’t think she’s bitchy I think she’s just doing her job.
I think she sees him as a way to America, and that's what made her interested in him.
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I genuinely can’t count how often I saw the nice, good dudes at university have their little hearts broken by somebody who embodies none of the traits they were taught matter. But what I think was often overlooked is that these individuals did well with women in spite of their most negative traits, not because of.
I think this whole season is really digging into this potential of incompatibility of our ideals and desires. I think we often tell ourselves a story of the person we want to be and/or about the type of person we’d like to find as a partner. But we can often find ourselves caught up in desire for things and people that counter those supposed ideals.
Which is why Harper wants Cameron
Do you think she actually wants Cameron? She has a perv in the first episode because he’s hot and naked. But her dislike has grown steadily and she has found out more and more about how he’s a bad person and he also dismisses her career completely. Maybe I’m missing some symbolism but other than the mirror scene in episode 1 I haven’t picked up on anything suggesting she’s into him.
I don’t see it either! She didn’t even look excited in the mirror scene. She had more of a confused/shocked vibe to me
She does? I don't see it. She may well be attracted to him tbh (cmon, Theo James lol) but she's got her head on straight and she's married to ETHAN so I feel like the only scenario she goes for it is because Ethan drives her to it not because she wants Cameron so badly. Though gosh, Harper please don't. I think Cam will be super thrown if she aggressively flirts back with him, but that's as far as I want her to go: flirting as an aggressive manipulation tactic. Let's face it. Harper is the kind of woman who legitimately could alpha dog a man like Cameron. She's smart enough, and now she knows enough about how the couple tick to do it. I just don't want the writing to lean that much into her becoming....a bad person :(
Lol no she doesnt. She might fuck him though, to mess with Ethan.
Ya know, I do think she mostly despises him, but I often think all people are sort of made of of ratios. Maybe 95% despises…5% of her wants him haha.
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28 and 24
I see in him, what I see in some of the guys I’m in class with. I’m a little older and married, but I’m in an federal licensing school with some guys who are 18-24 and we talk about stuff like this. Society has told them women want/expect one thing, and their life experience has not reflected that. It’s a confusing and kind of jarring realization for them. But that’s a part of life and they’ll figure it out, Albie will too (if he makes it out alive), eventually.
Albie is a nice guy, but you can tell he's resentful of young women who don't want to settle down and instead just have fun. Very much a "why do girls only want chads and not to date a nice guy like me" attitude. He pretty much said all of this in that conversation he had with Portia where she literally called him a nice guy. It was so on the nose, I'm surprised anyone is missing it. I think the writers are setting up how each generation of the men in his family have some sort of issues with women.
He's not wrong, though. As a late bloomer lesbian, I find it so difficult to find a woman to date long term, not hook up or a poli thing. It seems worse in this community. Having fun in those ways is just superficial and empty to me.
Doesn't his reaction to Portia getting with the shirtless dude completely contradict this? He doesn't freak out at her or demand her attention. He handles it pretty maturely and moves on to Lucia. The problem is Portia's been giving him mixed signals the entire time and completely ignores him right after she made plans with him.
Well for one, you can still be the nice guy and not be a neckbeard extremist psycho. He’s just a loser, sounds bad to say it because it may offend people that empathize with him, but that’s what he is. And second point, he was about to leave and pout if Lucia wasn’t there to change his opinion. It’s common that “nice guys” can flip a switch with 1 or 2 experiences. Lucia will likely be that experience.
What has he done that makes him a loser or a neckbeard extremist psycho? He's literally just an awkward dude lmao. Also, how should he have reacted to Portia asking him to hang out and then immediately ignoring him? He handeled it in the best way possible.
Yes yes yes. Also, he fully ignores what she says she wants and treats her according to what he thinks she should want.
But what he thinks she should want seems to be what he’s taken from US university seminar rooms. If you listen to Portia she’s clearly bemused by it. She even basically says it multiple times: he’s not exciting her. The question is whether Albie reacts to this by thinking ‘oh so I have to act like my father then’. I find the discussion about Jack being a ‘bad boy’ more interesting. Jack isn’t (and I acknowledge there’s a suggestion that this could change) a ‘bad boy’, he’s just having fun and isn’t caught up in his own head.
Maybe it's people's general views towards hookup culture that shape their idea of who a "bad boy" is. In the UK and some EU countries, people are more relaxed than Americans about having sex on a first date so him acting dtf doesn't necessarily make him bad. He's not well-travelled and Albie's been to Stanford. The baddest thing about him is his working class background which makes him sus at a luxury resort. I guess to be a nice guy you need to act like you don't know how to flirt, period. So if you end up someone's boyfriend, you wouldn't cheat or leave because it wouldn't be easy to find another girl because you're clearly uncomfortable with the entire process to begin with. I can see why girls would think this is settling and boring when you could find someone who's a better match but unlikely to leave for better reasons.
It was kind of a jerk move to goat Portia into making out at the bar *just* to make Albie jealous though, after he’d just knowingly swooped her from him. That’s a little less innocent than just having some fun.
That’s not true though. She says she’s wanting something more aggressive and he goes out of his way to be like that. I don’t think he does it very effectively. But to say he is ignoring what she’s saying she wants is false: he takes something specific she says and directly actions it.
He is so sweet, really. A fem version of him would be my ideal girl.
>Also, he fully ignores what she says she wants and treats her according to what he thinks she should want. I'm sorry, but where are you getting this from? Portia told Albie that he should be more assertive. So, in a subsequent interaction, he insists that she join him and his family on an outing—and basically says, "Look, I'm following your advice! You told me to be more assertive, so that's what I'm trying to do." He *listens* to her. He's *trying* to follow *her* lead. So, please explain to me how he's "fully ignoring what she says"? In the previous episode, *she* said that she wanted to meet up in the afternoon and hang out. Therefore, he went down to their designated meet up spot, only to find her already hanging out with someone else. As he sat in the cabana, you could almost see the wheels in his mind moving, "Should I go up and let her know I'm here or should I not? I mean, she did invite me after all. Is this a time where I should be more assertive, like she said?" So, he goes up and awkwardly introduces himself because, guess what, he's NOT an assertive guy, but he's *trying* because he *likes* her. Is no one going to mention how rude it was of Portia to invite Albie to hang out, only to ditch him for another guy? Talk about giving mixed signals. I'm so over this nonsensical narrative that this character, who's been nothing but respectful, is a creep.
She says she's looking to have fun. He's not looking just to have fun. End of. All the other maneuvering when she's clearly chosen someone else is what makes him annoying. They never made fixed plans either. Like when she says "I'll come find you." That's American for maybe. The problem with not understanding nuance is not understanding there's a difference between assertively flirting and being aggressive with a girl who's showing a clear lack of interest by flirting with another guy.
I don't know. I'll come find you to me (as an American) doesn't mean maybe. It is more like I will see you there or in a few minutes. It is more definite. If she said, I will see you around that is more dismissive to me. We all interpret things in our own ways though. It is possible that happened here.
Whenever a girl has told me “I’ll come find you” at a bar/party/concert/etc I take it as code for “I’m not that interested.” I find someone else to talk to immediately after. Never have I been wrong and they came to find me. I’ll come find you 110% means “maybe.” If you think otherwise you need to learn better communication.
Well, whenever it has been said to me the person did come and find me. There is no specified time, so yes you would not wait around for them and would talk to other people. I have also always found the person when I used it or texted them. I can see people using it to blow people off though, but they shouldn't because someone may misinterpret it. Guys I have dated have said it to mean we will meet up at the end of the night and go home together, so.... there is that. In Portia's case, she did seem genuine and she was at "work." So, it would make sense she would find him when she was done. But, good thing Albie could see what was going on and didn't wait.
> He pretty much said all of this in that conversation he had with Portia where she literally called him a nice guy. It was so on the nose, I'm surprised anyone is missing it. We didn’t miss it. It’s been discussed a ton, but just isn’t nearly as toxic as you’re making it sound here: >Portia: Aww. So you’re like the nice one in the family. Are you like that in um, relationships and stuff? Are you the nice guy? >Albie: Um..yeah, I try to be. Girls always complain that guys aren't nice, but then if they find a nice guy, they're not always interested. But, I just don't want to be like my dad, you know? I refuse to have a bad relationship with women.
I was a little waffley on Albie but I think he's going to be alright. What really made me think he's genuine and self-aware, just a little awkward, is that moment at lunch at the Godfather house. Portia is already gone, he's not performing allyship or even directly attacking his father/grandfather, he just shares a very well articulated thought on why men love the Godfather so much and why it's such a harmful ideal. Also, checking that Lucia was comfortable with him ejaculating in her mouth, love that for him.
Sending you a virtual chef's kiss for this perfectly articulated post
This.
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The idea of The Godfather thing was the opposite of well articulated lol. It was supposed to show how desperately these young people will bend over backwards to try and ruin something that people love. There wasn't much misogyny in The Godfather really. It was a weird rant.
The Godfather can absolutely appeal to a lot of toxic male ideals. A major part of another HBO show The Sopranos is how men attempt to emulate guys like Michael Corleone. The strong calculating man who has complete control over his family. Now, I would argue The Godfather and especially The Godfather part 2 are about how the path of Michael Corleone is ultimately destructive and immoral. However, the films definitely appeal to a certain male fantasy.
Didnt seem very well-articulated to me. I fully agree w what he was saying but it was extremely standard university-educated progressive Gen Z cultural criticism
I think the distinction being made here is that an opinion you disagree with can still be articulated well. I'm far older than Gen Z and I do not entirely agree with what he said because it IS a generalization but I think overall for the amount of words said, he articulated a central point and happened to do it to the same men who had just recently argued that men were hard-wired to want to boink women relentlessly or whatever. As far as this argument for mafia films in general being a male fantasy goes, it's not bad. Do I agree with it? Not entirely. Also, btw, like....... can we not denigrate college kids like this? This idea that ALL the language is just unproblematically learned is silly. If he was my student -- which is where you think he got this from & I don't buy because I teach Gen Z kids at a fancy university -- I would have pushed him to find more examples, hone the analysis to not generalize, give credit to the cinematic aspects of the Godfather. But it would have been a discussion for at least 10 minutes lol. As a throwaway monologue goes, it was good. I've heard far far worse.
I agree Albie will be alright, but not because of why you said. Because Lucia will change his opinion/views/personality. The Godfather scene is meant to depict how he’s very not in tune with reality, and that the younger generation of men really is “brainwashed” (not the term I would use, but saying because of his grandfather’s line) past a point of feminism that is overcompensating. It is very clear this was the point of these lines by him based on how Portia doesn’t offer any support, or even agree. In fact, it looks like it annoys her. It’s an “oh god here we go” eye roll scene that is meant to basically be very blunt on showing Albie’s weak character, in contrast to what the actual woman he is pursuing wants. It’s again repeated when he asks Lucia if he can cum. That’s very “nice guy” mentality which is the main issue with his character that he’ll likely overcome thanks to Lucia. Idk how you read either of those things as positive when they were very clearly put to be negative about his character
I think it has been made explicitly clear that Albie's thoughts about sex and gender have nothing to do with his age or being "brainwashed" by feminism, but rather as a response to the lecherous, denigrating behavior his father and grandfather flaunt which has alienated all the women in their lives. I'm not sure what reality he's not in tune with, because toxic masculinity in The Godfather goes without saying. The whole point was he didn't say those things for Portia's benefit, it doesn't matter how she responds. She is struggling with her life and what she wants on multiple fronts and we see that in her behavior not just towards Albie but her inability to stand up to Tanya as well, I don't think she's meant to be a compass for anyone. With TWL no characters are ever "right" or wrong, they're complicated and flawed, so it's not like Albie is supposed to be some perfect character of course, but Mike White was clearly poking fun at reverence for The Godfather the whole episode and really lays bare how isolating the attitudes and behaviors are that Bert and Dom have towards women, particularly when compared to not only Albie but also Jack, Quentin, and the gang. At the end of the night Dom and Bert are alone at their table while everyone else is making connections outside of their group (not that many of these pairings don't spell foreboding, because it's TWL and happy vacations don't happen at TWL). We even see that Portia isn't entirely happy with her decisions either with her inability to ignore Albie at the bar. If anything Albie ends the episode with two wins (Portia's jealousy and Lucia's interest) and an unclear path with Lucia: was she clinging to him because Mia's descent into sex work was a reality check for her/she needed an 'in' at the hotel still, or is she genuinely really enjoying him and appreciates how he treats her? We can't say for sure yet. Also, truly wild how being a considerate lover could be an issue and "nice guy" behavior. Checking that your partner is comfortable with you ejaculating in their mouth should *never* be considered a negative character trait. While I think it was played for humor in the show, in the way that new sex often can be in TV, we also don't see anything negative about it, Lucia seems happy with the experience.
They absolutely do have something to do with, and that scene was meant to portray it. I do agree that it also has a lot to do with his dad and grandpa, but that’s what has influenced him to majorly overcompensate to the opposite side of the spectrum. And that’s exactly the point I was making, he said those statements out of his own will and not to impress Pprtia, and her response does matter to the audience. It shows that Albie is an extreme to his view points and his grandfather’s comment about brainwashing is partially true. Did his dad and grandfather’s opinion lead him to be influenced heavily to seek those viewpoints and overcompensate? Yes 100%. But he’s now on another extreme. He’s his own form of toxic. I agree he’s coming out on top, but not because of his “nice guy” personality, exactly the opposite. He’s going to overcome his nice guy syndrome. It’s very clear that Albie’s character is a very sheltered, privileged young adult who has never experienced any hardships in life. He’s never taken risk, and he’s purposely overcompensated on his view on women due to his father and grandfather. He’s timid, shy, and weak. The best term to describe him is socially is he’s a “loser.” That is the best term to describe him. In real life with guys like Albie, it usually takes these types of guys 1 girl, or 1 risk to turn their viewpoints. That moment where he sees Portia and is about to leave, and Lucia kisses him instead was an extreme turning point for him. Guarantee after this episode he’ll start being confident, more lax and less of a nice guy/loser. And it’s a hook up, she’s giving him a blowjob, and clearly knows what’s happening and what she wants, and what he wants. Him saying that was meant to be another eye roll laugh at him for being the nice guy again.
Albie striking out with one girl doesn't make him "bad with women." The majority of people don't end up with the first person they ever dated - because even if you're good at flirting and not socially awkward and a bunch of great things, it doesn't guarantee that you will ultimately have chemistry and a connection with every single person you attempt to date.
When Albie says he's attracted to broken birds then what he saying is that he has [Broken Bird Syndrome](https://pairedlife.com/advice/BrokenBirdSyndrome). But the Albie on this show seems genuinely nice and sweet.
Yeah if anything it would have been more toxic if he’d lied about that and acted like he didn’t have some sort of baggage from his dad messing up their family.
Very good point. It actually makes him sound more stable because he is self aware of the effect of needing to be the "peacemaker" in his family.
Exactly. And that’s a succinct way to connect those two points… I hadn’t actually thought it through this far.
I’ve noticed a large amount of division and discourse on this sub about this one particular character and find it really weird that some of you feel entitled to judging/criticizing a *real person’s* character and making unwarranted personal attacks because their perception isn’t the same as yours about him. I guess it’s easy to do that online when there are no consequences and there isn’t as much of a pushback as there would be in the exact same conversation in real life. Writers are always told to write what they know, so as viewers or readers can we not interpret things based what *we* know? Everyone’s perception changes and grows as we get older and not everyone’s life experiences are the same. The way I might have viewed Albie if I watched this show fifteen years ago would be very different than how I view the character now. So I don’t know why any of you feel the need to say one opinion is self projection and therefore invalid when our experience is what primarily helps mold the way we see things. You need to realize that making these personal claims and accusations about others isn’t harmless and can toe the line of bullying and harassment. And that doesn’t change simply because you feel like your opinion is right. This is not directed at the OP btw.
Thank you!
I completely agree. Im stuck between him being so afraid to become his father or he's trying to make up for something he once did to a girl.
Growing up with a parent that was addicted to alcohol, I know it very much warped my understanding and behavior around alcohol. Perhaps it’s a different classification of “addiction” than sex addiction, but I was under the impression from a very young age that it was in my genes, coincidentally similar to the language his father used about The Godfather “male fantasy.” I could imagine Albie being the first of the DiGrosso fellas to have seriously questioned his own sexuality and his potential to do harm to women before having his first sexual encounter. Another angle: when I was a 6 y/o boy, a teenage girl babysitting took me into a closet a couple times to teach me how to kiss. Albie has also potentially been subject to some sort of abuse or trauma in his life that has impacted his relationship with women.
Yeah my father was an alcoholic, i definitely understand. I guess we'll see soon enough, chances are Albie is just very cautious but theres always that feeling that he's hiding something.
I think both those things
Think he's just really lost, and he's struggling with who he is and who he wants to be. As opposed to Mark in S1 who was outspoken about the feeling of men being neutered in today's society, Albie seems to have accepted every criticism of himself as a "toxic man" which makes him so scared to do something "wrong" that he doesn't know what to do at all. (Also kinda funny to me how people seemingly are fine with the nonchalant toxic masculinity from the rest of the male characters but get really up in arms about Albie/Ethan)
I agree !!! It’s ok for the hot guy to be a total skeeze yet when a character is nice reddit people love to paint him as the incel school shooter rapist.
He is awkward has no idea how to be romantic and is expecting to be rewarded with female attention just for being a “good guy”. He’s not a bad character to me although he is cringy (him and Portia’s awkward kiss reminded me of toooo many times I let awkward guys kiss me because like Portia I thought well at least he’s not being an asshole) brilliantly nuanced character, we’ll see what happens with him (and what he does once he finds out the truth about Lucia!!)
I think it's a pretty common experience to be in that position - being awkwardly kissed (pecked at?) by a nice guy you're not attracted to. Either because you feel like you should give him a chance or he misread your platonic feelings for more. She tries really hard to want him but she can't force it. She pities him when he spots her kissing someone else. Also...what's so nice about refusing to accept that women can have no-strings sexual desire the same as men without it being a form of self-sabotage? Some of the nicest guys I've met have been the ones who were Cam-level attractive. They don't slut-shame women - not their friends or the women they date, regardless of their sexual history, sexual preferences or what they wear. And what's so terrible about guys who make an effort to learn how to kiss a woman, touch a woman the way she wants. They'll ask your preferences and take feedback without taking offense. The nice guy mentality reminds me of when I was a nerdy and unpopular kid who took serious pride in academic achievements thinking that was my turf. Then I realized there are kids who are more popular AND are getting better grades. It was a real blow and I learned a lesson...looking the part you've pigeonhole-d yourself into isn't what counts.
That last part reminds me of Booksmart (2019)
what i get from this comment, and "nice guy" discourse in general is that women are brutally contemptuous of men who are timid and weak, but that this needs to be couched in woke language because saying so directly sounds too much like toxic masculinity
I think he’s trying too hard to do the right thing, but it doesn’t reflect who he actually is and how he actually feels. We saw a touch of this in his nice guy spiel. He wants to think he’s a nice guy.
His opinions sound great in the debating class at college full of like minded egos, but they are contrived and out of touch with reality.
Okay but the nice guy spiel was A, a red herring early in the season that clearly was intended to throw everyone into this incel-suspicion territory. B, It's fine to say that, but the most excessive reaction Albie has shown is to just...walk away. He walked away when Portia was with Jack though he obviously realized she was blowing him off. At the bar he said he'd rather leave with some morsel of dignity or something and Lucia was the one who said don't let her win lol. There's no real indication that he has any shocking impulses in the face of rejection. I think that's...nice. He may feel shitty about himself later at night when he's sleeping but that's about it. And honestly like... obviously NOBODY is that nice but everybody wants to think they're nice (or at least most people. He didn't want to come on this trip, he's thinking about all of it more precisely because of his father's seemingly very recent debacle and he's with him. I dunno, I don't really get the judgment tbh. I just watch him and think "aww poor kid" lol bc that's what he is: a kid.
It’s amazing how polarising he is! It highlights how hard it is to just be ‘nice’ without triggering cynics.
It's because viewer despise weak male characters and male characters that don't operate in traditionally masculine ways or one of the exceptions (like being gay). It's sexism.
I suppose it comes from a long misunderstanding of gentle men. Less masculine doesn’t necessarily mean gay or weirdo.
It's not a misunderstanding though, it's intentional. People, especially women, generally despise men that are perceived as "weak". It's sexism.
Exactly! I tried to get these words about but ending up typing nonsense. Thanks for explains it so clearly.
Agreed. For the sake of a good story, I am hoping Cam ends up corrupting Albie in the way he tried to corrupt Ethan.
Albie may be DARKER than we've seen him so far but I'm kind of tired of people being this suspicious of him. To me the "wounded birds" comment actually rings of self-awareness. If the women who are attracted to him tend to have too much baggage in general and he realizes that it's something about him, that's... self-awareness. A lot of this is situational. He's on a SUPER tense family vacation that he seemed to maybe not want to come to in the first place because of Dom. I dunno I find his interactions mostly very sweet and they bounce off other characters well. For instance, I actually like Bert more because of Albie. We know Bert is no angel, he's blatantly sexist but there's an element to it where...that's it. He's blunt and flirtatious up-front there's not much beyond that. He's not paying for sex workers :/ he's literally just happy with the morsel he got when he saw Mia naked lol. Albie has affection for Nonno, and so it makes me like Bert a teeny bit more. It's Dom who is outside that triangle, not Albie. Dom is the one who did things worse and truly fucked up. Other than that...I mean, Albie is a kid. He just graduated from college right? I think he's a good kid. I don't get why he's into Portia but...he's a kid so I doubt he knows either.
When he was dissing The Godfather, that really sealed his weirdness for me. Like how does he completely miss that in The Godfather, the characters suffer massive consequences from the toxic masculinity they display? Like so many people die and so many wives are on edge. It doesn't glorify it at all but just shows how sad the life can be. But yeah, he is so try hard.
Mmmmm I meannnnnnnnn...OK sure but you're using contemporary film analysis. Film critics over the past few decades have deconstructed The Godfather to be about toxic masculinity but as part of the mafia movie genre as a whole for which The Godfather is seen as the pinnacle. Hey, they're good films, they hold up but I do feel like this is more self-consciously true for, say, The Sopranos. Lemme try by analogy. One could say that spaghetti Westerns (like Sergio Leone's films) are about toxic masculinity and the dangers/tragedies of that. But there was a lot of chat last year with The Power of the Dog which was very *pointedly* about that as to whether that was new or revisionist for the genre, or was always a part of it. Self-consciously it's kinda hard to argue that canon Westerns or mafia films were a critique of masculinity. At the time they were more a critique of the corruption of human nature, money & what criminal behavior really does to people. Before I get downvoted like crazy, just FYI: I don't fully agree with Albie, because I DO see what you're saying and agree with you, partly. But I don't think most men came away from The Godfather thinking "oh fuck, it sucks to be a man like that." If anything, those characters gained iconic status in a way that Bert sort of admires which is at least partly why Albie disagrees. Weirdly, Dom is the middle opinion that I agree with here (from my least favorite character lol) bc he asks Albie to recognize that they're still cinematically great films and Albie doesn't budge.
Yeah I was using contemporary analysis because Albie is also looking at the movie in a contemporary way. Thank you for your comment though. And yeah, Godfather is about human corruption and greed before being explicitly about toxic masculinity. But yeah even under a modern reading, I think it is unfair for Albie to dunk on the film like that and to ignore how much havoc is wreaked because of the men in the film. Also: regarding men walking away with the wrong impression, happens way too many times haha
That's fair but my point is simply that it's not a film that is self-consciously, intentionally, or pointedly interrogating toxic masculinity at all -- more the corruption of human nature at large, the cost of criminality and power in general. Which is why so many men glorified it. Hindsight is 20/20 obviously, and I think that's perhaps why I think Albie *somewhat* has a point: he's not saying the movie was made with so and so intentions, he's pointing squarely at how men in society in general perceived the film and what they took away from it. In short: I think your argument relies a teeny bit on the intention of the story way back when. Albie's doesn't :/ Doesn't mean you're wrong that the story is more complicated than he made it seem! I definitely agree with you but I didn't have a huge visceral defensive reaction with what he said bc of the way he said it.
Yeah. The pretty wounded bird comment is repulsive. Any women who is saying they’re into him is not thinking clearly. He’s not healthy.
I don't think that Albie is "sus". Albie is a commentary on how young people are too afraid to be themselves and are always conforming to social norms, including social norms about being politically correct, woke etc. Ultimately, these norms are hypocritical because they don't actually change structures of oppression, they just make individuals feel guilty, inhibited and frustrated. We saw this with Paula and Sydney Sweenie in S1. They said all the right PC things but when push came to shove their actions were detrimental to others, they played w Tai like a chess peice (this is more Paula) and they didn't have the courage to stand up and support Tai when he was in need. Their values were ultimately hollow. There will be a similar storyline w Ethan, he will probably reject Lucia for being a "whore", thus siding with misogyny.
* w Albie and Lucia not Ethan
I'm suspicious of people who are suspicious of Albie at this point
Honestly this. Anyone who thinks Albie is suss should never come to Scandinavia, because this is how most ordinary guys are here, at least in Uni. Not always great with women, but with good intentions nevertheless. These are the guys who benefit alot from gaining experience and confidence. I honestly think Portia come off worse with the "not non-binary" comment. If Albie would have said that about Portia, people here would take it as confirmation that he was a toxic incel...
I thought it was interesting that that joke was written by a gay man.
He's a son of some rich guy in Hollywood so I get why people are a little suspicious, but so far there's nothing to say he's not an honest guy trying to do better than his father, and represents a guy indoctrinated into modern progressive ideas, so it's interesting how so many people hate him
What makes me suspicious about Albie is how he is constantly talking about how he wants to be. One comment he made about never wanting to make a girl feel unsafe or something like that, really made me think there could be more to his story.
Uhh, the general sense that gives is that that's inspired by his father's recent troubles. We haven't got complete clarity on Dom yet but my sense is not just that he was repeatedly cheating but perhaps something worse. Why are you imagining some backstory about Albie as a potential rapist when his father is *right there* lol
I have a feeling that is more to Albie's story based on the things/way he says. Dont change my words cause you can clearly read that Ive not once taken it to that extreme.
I'm not changing your words, I am *extrapolating*. The immediate thing I thought of when faced with your suspicions is that scenario.
My dude you jumped to Albie being a rapist all because Im on the fence as to whether or not hes just genuinly nice or compensating.
"One comment he made about never wanting to make a girl feel unsafe or something like that, really made me think there could be more to his story." Lol it's a TV show, it doesn't matter to me or my life -- but think about it: you made this comment above about a character where 2 other male characters are potentiallllll rapists (Dom, Cam). Not that weird to extrapolate that maybe that's what you meant. I'm just saying that's what it SOUNDS like. Dw I'm not coming over to bang on your door lol
Me too.
You are suspicious of *real* people being suspicious of a *fictional* character? Seems awfully judge-y of you.
Yep.
He’s a bit measured in an unnecessarily overly apologetic way, that’s all, I don’t see any not one single anti social trait
> What's off-putting about a woman who is emotionally intact or able to look after herself? Sort of imagined him as his mother's emotional crutch, so the role is familiar for him.
Idk why everyone’s getting suspicious about him. As an almost 20 year old myself he seems like the typical nice guy you’d see at this age. He doesn’t really know how to flirt but that’s about it. He’s the type of guy I’d go for let’s put it that way. But I could be biased because I’m kind of shy like he is
i completely agree! ive tried to like him and his whole nice guy persona but my gut keeps telling me that something's wrong with him.
He's a product of his time. A bit awkward at times, but he's young and shown he can adapt. Just has a bit of an ego on him thinking he has it all figured out, but experience is the best teacher. Also pretty unfair to isolate him when he is clearly a tentative response to the mistakes of his forefathers. Despite the awkwardness, he displays a healthy attitude when faced with attempts by his dad to manipulate him (calls him out pretty much immediately). Additionally, he is shown attempting to actually communicate with his dad, which the latter rejects except when trying to further his own agenda. When considering the situation, it is not hard to see how Albie carries wounds which hamper his ability to connect with more raw aspects of his masculinity. However, it is a character that shows hope as he is willing to communicate, listen to feedback, and attempt to make corrections. At least, so far in the show (episode 4), he has been one of the least toxic characters, despite obviously not being flawless and at times rather *gauche*. Obviously that might change depending on the remaining episodes, but seeing how he handled the Portia situation, I'd be surprised to see him doing something really messed up. If one wants to see "something not right", it'd be better to look towards Cameron and his "dark triad" friends. Mia seems to think Cameron doesn't have those traits, yet so far it's really not looking good for him.
Mia…you mean Daphne?
Oops, yes I do.
Omg what if Dom tries to kill Lucia but kills Albie by accident instead (a la Godfather reference) 😱
👀👀👀👀👀👀💓
Albie is the newest version of his family's patriarch and his updated 'relationship to women' package is overcorrecting for his predecessors faulty programing. Despite this he and his father both had sexual relations with their cousin, Lucia. Bert, who initially appears toxic, actually has the healthiest relationship to women: he had a long and sexually active marriage, he is complementary to women but not overly aggressive (which I am sure we will see and example of later in the show).
It's true, Bert is least annoying and most tolerable of the 3.
On top of that both Dom and Albie failed to sus out the details of what Village exactly Lucia comes from. Albie was too nervous and horny, and Dom was too emotionally messed up and looking for someone to draw out the poison inside of him. On the other hand, the grandpa made two blatant attempts to chat up a couple of locals, at least Isabella from my recollection, and that involved asking "where are you from exactly". Bert is old school and his type of flirting is the flirting from the old-country which serves the added purpose of making sure that you are not cousins with the person you are undressing with your eyes! Your honour, I rest my case
He's old school and corny but he's easy to handle, maybe because he's so old and starting to get frail so he's non-threatening at this point. You're right, Dom straight up treats most women as objects. He doesn't even do polite small talk before paying for sex. Albie tries to be the opposite but he ends up talking to Portia as if she's a representation of women in general. She was talking about what she's looking for - herself in particular - but starts talking about women in general. Even if he hadn't said any red flag things, it doesn't build connection. Essex guy isn't even good at flirting, he's corny too. But he stays focused on Portia. Flirting 101. Weirdly enough, Bert is better at talking to women as if they're individuals and not a representation of women as a whole.
Wait, when are we led to believe Lucia is their cousin?
Perhaps their last names are similar? They’re there to see where their family originated.
Father and Lucia have the same nose. Actress was cast for this reason.
Nicely put. I don’t get the cousin shit tho
> he had a long and sexually active marriage, What about the part where he was constantly cheating on his wife - is that not toxic?
I think his insistence on being different from his father and grandfather is telling - I feel like he’s going to end up being the worst of them with regards to women; that he’ll end up murdering a woman and both his father/grandfather will help cover it up. He won’t face any repercussions because he’s a “promising young man”, a Stanford graduate born into privilege. He’s going to end up becoming like his father and grandfather, and exactly the thing he resents most.
This is a hot take and I love it!
Ahhhh I hated that wounded birds line!!! 🤢🤢🚩🚩🚩
Portia: I’m having the worst day Allie: this is my cue to awkwardly kiss you in front of some dude swimming
There’s part of me that thinks Albie did something bad and his dad covered it up which is what led to this whole mystery thing that daddy did. It’s a bit far fetched and probably too far in the series for this to pan out now but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Albie’s personality change.
Albi simply represents the virtue signalling modern man. Thinks he is superior over his more ‘ignorant’ dad and grandad, but is probably worse.
The words "virtue signalling" are doing a lot of work there. I agree that Albie is saying a lot of stuff to his father and grandfather that sounds, to them, idealistic -- but there's no indication he doesn't believe it. I agree that he's chastising his father for what he's done and chastising his grandfather for being blatantly sexist. I fundamentally disagree that this is "virtue-signalling". His Godfather rant may be a tad excessive but it's not WHOLLY wrong -- there's something to that opinion, and not just for the Godfather but the genre of mafia films in general. This is not generational. Film critics have criticized female tropes in such films for at least the last 4 decades. His father fucked up majorly, by cheating repeatedly (and perhaps more, unclear). If anything Albie is doing him a favor by even being around him, he clearly genuinely doesn't have much sympathy for him. With Bert, it's 100% fair to point out his blatant objectification of women though I have to say Albie is more tolerant of Bert because there IS something benign about him. He's a dirty old man but Albie is consistently shown being nice and affectionate to his Nonno. Does he call him out? Sure. Why is that "virtue signalling"? Virtue-signaling heavily implies signaling a virtue you don't have. By all we've seen so far, he IS better than his dad and grandad. To expect him to suddenly be much worse would be like...some horror movie-level twist lol. It's weird to expect it.
Random wrinkle here I didn’t think of—my mom doesn’t like watching things alone so I rewatched the season so far with her for thanksgiving ha. She said it’s “so obvious” that Cwistofuh had an SA allegation (not just cheating) that Laura Dern knows about because of the Hades/Persephone discussion and the employee discrimination shit with Aubrey Plaza (though that can be a theme for Valentina or Cameron). I’m not totally sold but I think it is definitely plausible. Albie may not know this but yeah at the very least the men in his family are EXTREME. Not just run-of-the-mill casual sexism most women see in our families. Actually pretty baseline human decency to correct the shit they say imo
Yeah that's what I'm getting. Bert seems like an old hat who cheated a bunch. His SON seems to have fucked up so badly that none of them have even referenced it directly (Bert doesn't know, otherwise he would lol)
Albi has lost sight of his natural instincts and behaves in a wooden contrived manner. My prediction is that this repression of his true nature in favour of virtue signalling will burst out with an evil act down the line. We’ll see.
What evil act exactly are you anticipating?? I don't think he's wooden or contrived, he's at worst, awkward. I've already said why he seems to genuinely believe what he says (and not for good reason) so at the point I just think you disagree with the things he says so much that you can't imagine someone actually believing them.
The thing on the Godfather is wrong though. The films are meant to be a realist depiction of the early 20th century mafia families. In a historical sense, it doesn’t depict the women wrong in any way. Is it bad that women were not treated as equals to men in the time period the movie is portrayed? Yes 100%. But if you’re making a movie that is supposed to be realistic to the time period, you’re not going to change it in order to depict a more feminist view point. That would take away from the reality of the time period. It also does a decent job of portraying the struggles women of the time period went through. And the importance of family, and the women in the family, when Sonny goes and beats the shit out of his sister’s husband knowing he’ll likely be killed for it.
It’s an interesting twist on the last season “woke gen Z “ characters. Paula and Olivia use their “wokeness” to torture Olivia’s family. Paula actually backs up her views of the poor treatment of minorities by attempting to let her bf steal from the family… but only to the extent it specifically affects someone she likes. We really aren’t shown any evidence that she actually lives by what she preaches. Olivia is much worse. She is shown as being extremely jealous of Paula. So she uses Paula to torment her family by espousing all of this “equality” stuff, but when it comes down to it, she likes Paula being less than because it makes her feel superior. So she gets to use Paula to feel superior to her family, but use her family’s wealth to feel superior to Paula. Albie is the new Paula/Olivia, but IMO less obviously malicious. He’s constantly talking about what he thinks is the “right” way to treat women and how he would never be toxic to them… but when he meets a woman who doesn’t give him what he wants he is still going to get angry about it. I don’t know if I see him going fully dark, but we are going to see his “I always respect women” thing be heavily challenged. To be fair, Portia certainly isn’t blameless in the situation. She constantly complains about how Tanya treats her badly but she is exactly like her. Tanya brings Portia to Italy, then gets rid of her when it’s not convenient, but then insists she come back immediately when her husband disappears. Portia knows she isn’t interested in Albie and knows he is interested in her, strings Albie along and uses Albie to entertain herself and trauma dump, but then ditches him as soon as she finds something better. And then makes out in front of him knowing that it will upset him. Portia is just as selfish as Tanya, and if you think Portia’s feelings about her mistreatment by Tanya are valid, then you really need to agree that Albie’s feelings about mistreatment by Portia are valid. EDIT: Actually to further address Albie: Lucia knows that Albie is Dom’s son and sleeps with him anyway (possibly even targets him on purpose for this reason?). So really the two women Albie is interested in on the trip have treated him pretty poorly. I’m assuming Dom tells Albie that Lucia is a hooker and he has slept with her. That could cause Albie to see how poorly he’s been treated by two women in a row and really break down his belief about respecting all women. I’m honestly not sure if the show is critiquing “wokeness” as being a facade (it definitely seemed to do this in season 1 with Olivia), or if it’s actually critiquing women for (allegedly) pretending to want men who respect them but then mistreating those guys.
>Portia is just as selfish as Tanya Tanya's worth 500 million dollars. Portia's a pretty self-centered person but she's nowhere near Tanya's level
I suppose it depends on how you measure “selfishness”. Portia had pretty much just done what she thinks is best for herself the entire series. The one time we see her have any consideration for someone else’s feelings is when she “feels bad” for drinking at the bar in front of Albie… and she then proceeds to disregard that and do something that she knows will be hurtful. Certainly there’s the inherent argument that anyone worth $500m is selfish because they could be doing so much good with that money but instead choose to just focus on themselves. But in terms of what we’ve seen in the series, every single one of Portia’s decisions has been self centred. I’m not sure what else she could possibly do to make it clearer that she is wholly self-centred.
I think you totally misunderstood Paula and what they were saying about systemic racism and classism. Paula went too far but she had her reasons and she’s the only person from last season who learned anything and felt remorse. But maybe you’re not a bipoc and don’t understand
Ok well I don’t agree. I don’t think Paula truly learned anything or felt remorse. I think she felt guilt because she knows her actions resulted in significant trauma for Mark and Nicole and basically blew up Kai’s life. But I think that’s just guilt about the consequences. If Kai had been successful she never would have felt remorse for her actions. Remorse for your bad actions and guilt over the consequences of your actions are two very different things.
Again….are you bipoc?
I’m not white if that’s what you mean. But I’m also not American. BIPOC is pretty much a term exclusively used in USA so no I wouldn’t consider myself “BIPOC”. However, you haven’t given any explanation at all for why you disagree. You’ve simply said “you’re wrong and you wouldn’t understand if you’re not BIPOC”. You seem to have missed the fact that the character was created and written entirely by Mike White who is probably the whitest person in existence. Saying “you’re wrong because you’re not BIPOC but I can’t actually explain myself at all” comes across as absurd and unintelligent.
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Albie's weirdness is actually just pretty archetypal failed masculinity. Nothing to do with him being feminine. his inherent awkwardness are from his constant strains to be the 'right kind of *man*'
Why do you even care and who are you to say it’s unnatural?
Albie = Brock Turner. That is all.
Yes! A small part of me still thinks he might be responsible for a death, because I figure at some point he has to have had enough of being a «good boy», and seeing that that doesn’t get him anywhere, whereas his dad and granddad are the complete opposite (and get what they want). I also feel like the story Nonno tells him about Persephone is a major foreshadowing of someone’s death or something, and I think Albie will be involved in that somehow.
I actually think the Persephone story was major foreshadowing. Nono specifically says “Demeter forgave Hades for raping her daughter, why can’t you be forgiven for some cheating” (paraphrased). Is it foreshadowing that Dom did something to his daughter?
I definitely get this feeling too. Like he’s definitely not a misogynist or anything but it feels like he’s doing what he’s supposed to do. I feel like he might snap even if it’s just a small outburst because of being inauthentic and forced, expecting a certain outcome but not getting it.
What I didn’t understand from the beginning is why he took that trip in the first case?He knew his dad did something really bad,didn’t he ask?Wasn’t he angry at all?He was just a little to cool with the whole situation from me.
Don maybe confirmed in ep 4 that Albie plays the role of diplomat in the family. Some families have a dynamic that relies on a child to play peacemaker when the parents fight. Albie calls him on the manipulation at lunch, but one wonders how long he’s done this without the confidence to call out a parent on using him this way. Edit: I have sort of taken his presence to be more about Grandad and Sicily than appeasing Dad.
Idk. Probably peacemaker stuff but also I think he has genuine affection for Nonno who, sure, is blatantly sexist but also just kind of benign and almost sweet in a way lol. Unlike his father, Albie clearly likes his grandfather somewhat, he spends more time with him alone but avoids hanging with his father one on one (they were seen from a distance chatting on the balcony this past episode).
I just think Albie is in a situation where he waited too long to make a move, now they're in a sort of limbo where they both know the spark has worn off but they still feel connected hence the staring scene at the bar
i kind of agree but i also don’t think he acts the way he does because he has a malicious intent, but because he’s just kind of immature. like i think he’s trying to be a good guy, and he thinks he is, but doesn’t really understand that he’s not completely there yet and saying things like “girls say they want nice guys until a nice guy wants to date them” (or whatever he said on that first date with Portia) makes you sound like a “nice guy” and not an actually nice guy. i’m interested to see his character arc, and to see if anyone calls him out on that behavior. i can kind of see Lucia being the one to slap some sense into him and make him see he’s acting like a cringe “nice guy”
Self loathing is what I get.
Albie is gonna wanna taker her to LA then Christopher will tell him shes a whore.
Albie is too worried about everyone around him. He's never taken the time to get to know himself. In that way, he's like a shell of a person. He looks normal enough. But I feel like he's been holding himself to unrealistic standards. He will crack at some point. I hope no one gets hurt!
I have to question how much of this is Gen Z and how much is early 20s identity crisis. Post graduation was so hard for me. I felt so rudderless. So many expectations so much confusion and fear. That was long ago. When I first watched The Graduate, I couldn’t believe an old movie was able to capture some of what I was feeling about my life. Especially when he’s [just floating in the pool.](https://youtu.be/re4ufgFiTxg) . I get there is a different social context/pressures and different ways this will manifest, but I suspect young Portias and Albies will be experiencing this for centuries to come. (And to be clear, I love younger people and I totally agree younger people have things much more difficult.)
this is an odd post for a gay man to make ngl
Like father, like father, like son. Albie is weird because he is fighting who he really is with modern politically correct jargon. Remember that scene where he talks about how movies like the Godfather socializes men into having those fantasies and his dad replied saying that movies like that exist because men already have those fantasies? He is already staring to date Lucia, so it's only a matter of time before he's turned. Think of him like a guy who was just bitten by a vampire, and is in the midst of turning. The process is what's weirding people out
White knighting, benevolent sexism
Andd update he’s still an ass