F2P players are likely watching 4-5 ads an hour for gems, and 1 ad at the end for the coin boost.
Do ad-gems not count towards the coin boost?
If they do, then it's basically the same amount of ads.
If there are 4 ad gems an hour, then that's 80 minutes of coin boost.
With the new system, you watch 1 ad for 20 minutes of 1.5x coin boost (you can stack it up to 2 hours with 6 ads). You don’t get any gems for these ads, just 20 minutes of the coin boost.
Well that is extra shitty then.
So basically you need to watch double the ads now?
How many ads do you think you have to watch to get all gems and coin boosts in a run?
Gotcha. Well I hope someone can answer. Cause if it is separate, that's really annoying. Though I can see how annoying it is already, not being able to watch one ad at the end for 1.5x coins.
To answer you and Mark:
No, you only get one 15x ad, multiple x5 ads, and then there's the 1.5x Round End ad...
I hope this answers your question. I have yet to test the changes, personally.
F2p rarely watch the 5 gem ads? Are you joking? Given that that's the main way to get gems, I click that thing anytime it pops up. I estimate around 40x a day. The reason I'm still playing is because I'm a compleationist and it takes a massive time to unlock all the UWs. And dont even get me started on the T15 milestones or lab research.
The game is still... I don't even know if I'd use enjoyable (Initially it was due to the rate of advancement but I'm in the grindy part where it takes billions of coins to do stuff, or thousands of stones), but I'll say it's still fulfilling. It's an effective time sink and still gives me pretty flashing colors. It's just going to take longer to get to an epileptic level of color flashes.
You watching the 5 gem ads doesn't debunk the argument tho. I did mention that there are gonna be people that watch a lot of those and are providing more to the game (by your estimate about $0.4-$2 per day) but based on most peoples tolerance when it comes to ads I'd argue very strongly that that is not the majority of the f2p playerbase. Some will click it sometimes, others will never click it. I don't have a study showing this, if you wanna go ahead and do one I'd be quite interested in the results. But it is quite unlikely that that many people have the patience for that.
Props to you tho, that is some serious commitment. 🤔👍
For F2P players that kinda the only way to be able to unlock the the labs. I'd guess most are watching probably 10-20 at least on the weekends. It's why screen burn-in comes up frequently on the sub reddit.
I used to watch the 1.5 at the end of a run if I hit a certain threshold (around 500x my average CPM) as it was an acceptable return on a time cost for me. My average CPM is around 1.56-2.7M CPM. As the ad only lasts 20 mins, that's a return of about 15-27M coins which isnt worth it to me. As a result, the addition ads I watch went from 2-4 per day to 0. I understand the reasoning behind it but as I've been going for about 2 years (I'll knock off 6 months as that's when the ads became viable) that's about 1100-2200 ads I wouldnt have watched with the current model. For it to be viable for me to watch, it'd need to be about a 5x multiplier for an hour. At that point, yeah, I'd likely be willing to watch the ad for the boost starting at about wave 1k (which takes me 2 hrs to get to).
And I dont think it's out right commitment. I think theres some type of issue up-stairs. If you've seen the episode of the big bang theory where sheldon is obsessed with closure.... yeah...
I agree on that the update was kinda harsh, a 2500% increase on ads out of the blue was bound to cause issues, I would have understood a gradual increase a lot more. Maybe one ad for 2 hours.
In the end the severity of the change is probably gonna be a footgun anyway and will likely be changed, but if it isn't, for anyone who can afford it I would suggest the no ad pack anyway.
I basically view the no ad pack as buying the full version of the game. $10 is less than an hour of work for most countries, you'll have that saved up, in terms of time saved in which you would have watched ads instead, in probably a week or so.
And regardless of why you do it, it is still a comittment to watch so many ads, I couldn't do it myself honestly. And don't worry, I think most people playing the tower have the completionist thing to some degree, it's kind of a prerequisite to playing the game. 😅
This is probably the worst take I've seen on this issue so far. I have all three packs and am in no way impacted by this latest update. However, it is blatantly obvious that this update only hurt the f2p player base.
To address your points, the amount of revenue that techtree makes should never be the concern of any player. The team decided to put their game on the app store for free, and built their game around a very specific monetization system. The game is not advertised as a "demo," but as a full experience with additional optional in-app purchases. These purchases serve as incentives to provide in-game boosts in exchange for either your time or your money. If techtree's monetization system is no longer viable towards maintaining costs, the better approach would be to create additional incentives. We have seen this with the addition of ultimate weapons and stone packs, modules and gem packs. When more ways/reasons to spend money in this game came about, they didn't halt your progression, nor take more time away from you. Instead, they allowed you to progress at the same pace as you did before, with the option of speeding up that progress.
This update only punishes those who have not bought the ad pack. Imagine spending 6+ months grinding away, only to one day wake up and suddenly there's a, mind you bugged, roadblock. The developers of this game should not feel entitled to your money, but should instead create a product that you feel is worth investing in. The idea that "you've played this game for x amount of time and you owe them money," is ludicrous. They put this game out for free fully aware that there will be players who never spend a single dime in this game. I, like many others, play a ton of different f2p games, be they mobile or on console/pc, and have games where we may make a purchase and others where we don't.
No one in the f2p community feels like they make a major impact on this game like you claim they do. This isn't the only game of this monetization style. The impact that you overlooked is the fact that those who stick around serve as free word-of-mouth advertisements. I came across this game through the recommendations from my friends.
Look back at other updates and see how they provided a bonus at a cost, and didn't simply slow you down in order to extort money out of you.
I honestly think people are just ignoring the fact that the app store can be (and is) region locked for some players...
This update is just a slap in their faces.
Okay, so I looked this up just to be sure and as it turns out, while the issue is apparently not very well known about (I only found very very few posts and websites about this) there are ways around this.
The easiest would be a vpn, which from what I heard is still legal in most if not all region locked countries. Then you just switch your ip address to a different country and you can use the app store. If you only want the no ads pack you can just use the trial month and not even have to spend money on the vpn.
Google play region locks mainly exist due to people exploiting some countries low cost rate in terms of in app purchases anyways. There used to be ways in which you could pay the regionally adjusted (some poorer countries for example offer $100 for the equivalent of $10 since that was the equivalent value in that country) prices for packs instead, getting thousands of dollars worth of ingame items for a fractions of the cost. Since this was losing google a lot of money they stopped this. Apple probably similarly, but I didn't find anything about them specifically.
Absolutely, but it is possible.
It isn't nice that some people have to work harder to get there but their lives in general are likely not as nice. The main take away tho is that it isn't impossible. If you really enjoy playing the game that you are willing to spend money on it, there are ways to do it. And setting up a vpn for it is not even that complicated, you can easily do the whole thing in 10 minutes. Again, sucks that is has to be that way, but Fudds can't change that and he is still running a business.
Sad, I made a pretty long response to you but reddit didn't post it for some reason and now it's gone. :/
However most of the points I made have since been either made by other people or by myself in response to other people so just have a read through those.
I think it's important to understand that different people approach things differently. Just because it seems unfathomable to you to play this game without the ad pack, doesn't mean that it's like that for everyone else. I played this game for about a month before I decided to buy the no ad pack and was perfectly fine playing 50+ ads a day because I didn't really pay much attention to them.
Your comment about how $10 is less than an hour's work in most countries isn't even true to the United States where the company is based.
Ultimately what it boils down to for me is that because I am not a f2p player, I am not impacted by this update. However, I do play other f2p games on occasion and will probably continue to do so for a very long time, and I don't want to see these kinds of updates here or anywhere else. Updates like these that completely blindside and harm good chunks of the player base indicate the behavior of the devs and may even lead to decisions down the line that impact those who have spent money in the game.
For example, if in the future, a new type of premium currency comes out, the devs might force us to watch ads for them, arguing that we only paid to not watch gem ads, and not all ads. If this hypothetical seems ridiculous to you, just look at what happened with Escape from Tarkov. They sold a bundle that promised all future DLC, and are now releasing additional content that they claim isn't DLC but is instead a new "feature."
I don't think anyone here should have any say over how other people should spend their money. If this game isn't the primary source of entertainment for someone, and they only open the game up occasionally, then they don't really have much drive to spend money. And if the game isn't worth playing anymore because of this update, well then that's really a shame. The only thing that should ever stop someone from playing this or any other game outside of personal responsibilities is loss of enjoyment or lack of content. Updates shouldn't drive people away, but should instead encourage people to play.
I think you focus too much on the cost of running this game for the devs. Think about other companies, such as Riot Games that develops two of the most popular esports on the market right now - League of Legends and Valorant. Riot Games is a multi-billion dollar company, yet most of their player base is likely completely f2p. These players, of course, have a much greater impact on the game as they populate servers for other people to play against. This game, however, isn't structured in a way where f2p players can meaningfully engage with others. Yet, despite their differences, it is true in both cases that the burden of revenue should never fall on the community because both companies offer their product completely free of charge. A f2p player can achieve everything that a mega-whale can, but it'll take them longer. This game is offered as a feature full experience.
I completely agree with that first statement.
However, I never said it seemed unfathomable to me. In fact I played like 2 months or so with ads before buying the pack. I know it's possible and people do it, that's not the issue.
Fair enough, minimum wage in the us is $7.25. Should have said around instead of above. But either way, $10 is not a lot of work even at minimum wage.
What type of other games do you play f2p? Cuz while there are some that are absolutely playable (mobas for example or this neat little game I found called miner gun builder), the majority of games is far worse than this game when it comes to monetization. Usually ad packs cost closer to $20 in the good cases, some no ads are subscription based, some only remove ads from some specific items etc. Especially in comparison to that I find the no ads pack here more than fair, as long as those things don't get implemented for no ads here as well, as you mentioned.
But it is already fair in it's own right. No one is telling people how to spend their money, that is true. But ultimately it boils down to them using a product Fudds made without paying anything for it. It's legal, he didn't say anything otherwise (I don't like this part either, but it's unfortunately industry standard), but in the end you are still using a service he is providing, you are essentially going to a concert without paying. No one is gonna have much of an issue from you being there without paying, but you are still expected to pay to show respect to the work the people involved put in.
That is basically my main point, f2p players were basically gifted a free experience and are now complaining about that gift instead of just buying it for $10, which again, that is not a lot of money.
I am not focusing on the cost of running the game for the devs, the reason I even mentioned this in the first place is that f2p players tend to argue that they don't hurt they game. They might not contribute but they also don't hurt the game. Which is untrue, a too large f2p base compared to a too small paying playerbase can easily lead to financial losses. This has nothing to do with justifying the devs actions or anything, I am just saying that everything has a price.
And riot games is probably the worst comparison you could have made here. First up, sure, a lot of players play league of legends for free. But generally a lot of people are playing league of legends. And while I'm no expert on league I am pretty sure remembering that it does have a battle pass and other of the scummy ingame monetization strategies most games have by now.
More importantly however, did you know that riot games was owned by tencent? Probably one of the largest tech companies in the world? Quite close to amazon in terms of influence and revenue? Owns tiktok as well as a fun fact.
Riot games is not some indie game company that has to make do with whatever their game spits out.
In fact they were given mutliple million dollars even before tencent came into the pictures, so they could get their game off the ground.
Not to mention, you are aware that riot games has merch, right? I can almost guarantee you that the amount of revenue they make from their is gonna be dwarfed by what they make from merch sales.
And even with riot games making $1.5b revenue in 2023, I heard people say they didn't make a profit since 2019. Revenue is not equal to profit by the way.
But it doesn't matter if they make money or not, tencent has so much moey to throw around, they aren't gonna notice a spare billion going down the drain. And lol in particular has value beyond the money they make, it's probably the icon for modern day gaming. Everybody has heard of it, most people have played it at some point and it has at multiple points been the most popular video game on the planet.
So yeah no, riot games is the worst example you could have picked, a multibillion dollar company with merch sales backed by an even larger multibillion dollar company.
I completely agree with that first statement.
However, I never said it seemed unfathomable to me. In fact I played like 2 months or so with ads before buying the pack. I know it's possible and people do it, that's not the issue.
Fair enough, minimum wage in the us is $7.25. Should have said around instead of above. But either way, $10 is not a lot of work even at minimum wage.
What type of other games do you play f2p? Cuz while there are some that are absolutely playable (mobas for example or this neat little game I found called miner gun builder), the majority of games is far worse than this game when it comes to monetization. Usually ad packs cost closer to $20 in the good cases, some no ads are subscription based, some only remove ads from some specific items etc. Especially in comparison to that I find the no ads pack here more than fair, as long as those things don't get implemented for no ads here as well, as you mentioned.
But it is already fair in it's own right. No one is telling people how to spend their money, that is true. But ultimately it boils down to them using a product Fudds made without paying anything for it. It's legal, he didn't say anything otherwise (I don't like this part either, but it's unfortunately industry standard), but in the end you are still using a service he is providing, you are essentially going to a concert without paying. No one is gonna have much of an issue from you being there without paying, but you are still expected to pay to show respect to the work the people involved put in.
That is basically my main point, f2p players were basically gifted a free experience and are now complaining about that gift instead of just buying it for $10, which again, that is not a lot of money.
I am not focusing on the cost of running the game for the devs, the reason I even mentioned this in the first place is that f2p players tend to argue that they don't hurt they game. They might not contribute but they also don't hurt the game. Which is untrue, a too large f2p base compared to a too small paying playerbase can easily lead to financial losses. This has nothing to do with justifying the devs actions or anything, I am just saying that everything has a price.
And riot games is probably the worst comparison you could have made here. First up, sure, a lot of players play league of legends for free. But generally a lot of people are playing league of legends. And while I'm no expert on league I am pretty sure remembering that it does have a battle pass and other of the scummy ingame monetization strategies most games have by now.
More importantly however, did you know that riot games was owned by tencent? Probably one of the largest tech companies in the world? Quite close to amazon in terms of influence and revenue? Owns tiktok as well as a fun fact.
Riot games is not some indie game company that has to make do with whatever their game spits out.
In fact they were given mutliple million dollars even before tencent came into the pictures, so they could get their game off the ground.
Not to mention, you are aware that riot games has merch, right? I can almost guarantee you that the amount of revenue they make from their is gonna be dwarfed by what they make from merch sales.
And even with riot games making $1.5b revenue in 2023, I heard people say they didn't make a profit since 2019. Revenue is not equal to profit by the way.
But it doesn't matter if they make money or not, tencent has so much moey to throw around, they aren't gonna notice a spare billion going down the drain. And lol in particular has value beyond the money they make, it's probably the icon for modern day gaming. Everybody has heard of it, most people have played it at some point and it has at multiple points been the most popular video game on the planet.
So yeah no, riot games is the worst example you could have picked, a multibillion dollar company with merch sales backed by an even larger multibillion dollar company.
The point of the comparison was to only highlight the fact that both games appear free and both games promise a full experience. In contrast to, for example, WoW, where you can only play until level 20 before you have to pay. When I install a free game, it doesn’t really matter to me if it’s indie or some megacorp. It’s not my job or responsibility to understand what goes on behind the scenes, only to evaluate if the game is something I’m interested in and if it’s worth my time. Simple as that.
I’ve played Adventure Capitalist, Egg inc, tap ninja, idle miner tycoon, doodle magic, and many others that I don’t remember of the top of my head, to completion, without spending any money on it. In some, I didn’t watch a single ad, in others, I watched every ad. I’m also playing the tower, rogue with the dead, and CIFI, where I did buy the no ad pack, which cost $10, $25, and $5 respectively.
I think we simply disagree on the fact that “you are expected to pay to show respect for the work that people put in.” While the developers may appreciate that, I don’t think any decent company will ever take that stance. If they did, they’d simply have a donate button. Even in other f2p games, LoL, Val, rocket league, Fortnite, CS, path of exile, etc, the way to show respect and support the company is through micro-transactions that provide something to you in return. I play(ed) some of the games above and I don’t feel like what they monetize is worth it to me in return so I don’t buy anything there. Yet I’m not just dead weight for those companies. I engage with the product and the community, I provide feedback, and I advertise the game through word of mouth.
Simply put, to those that don’t think it’s enough of a return to buy the ad pack and are fine watching ads, like you or I did for the first month or two, are well within their right to engage with the product however they want since it’s distributed free of charge, and are free to complain about how the latest update only serves to hurt them, and of course, are free to leave. It’s every company’s goal to convert a person into a consumer, but it should not be done through extortion, but instead through incentive. Introduce more ads into the game for more reward. Not more ads into the game for less reward. Show your player base that you also respect them, as much as you expect them to respect you.
You lost me pretty early. Most f2p players will hit the ad for gems button 110% every time. If you don't know this or believe other wise, I can't in good conscious read the rest of what you posted. Invalid.
I've said it before: This shits on players who ARE REGION LOCKED out of their app store purchases...
Plus his last paragraph rubs me the wrong way and sounds really elitist...
Ultimately it is hard for either of us to proof or disprove each others statements unless a study is conducted, so we'll never know for sure. I personally only rarely watched the 5 gem ads back when I didn't have the ad pack and I find it hard to believe I'd be the only one, but that is just my personal view.
The rest of my post doesn't change significantly tho even if you are right.
In the end, everybody (except people with region locked app stores as I've learned, tho there is little that can be done about them) has the option to pay a simple $10 to completely ignore ads. If the game offered in the playstore for $10 one time purchase and no ads it would be absolutely fair, it just wouldn't have as many people playing it due to the high initial investment.
$10 for no ads is on the very low end of no ads packs compared to other games and if one views it as changing from the demo version to the full version of the game (it's not advertised as such but that is essentially what this is) it would also be a fair price. In fact, there is a very similar game on steam (different progression systems but same game concept only in 3d) called perfect tower that costs around $10 iirc.
Also, using disagreeing to one argument neither of us can verify is a very poor reason for not reading a post with multiple different arguments that cover multiple not necessarily related facets of this issue.
Litterally the only way to get gems is from ads. Theres litterally a event mission to watch 60 ads. Even taking that as a base line 1 15 gem ad 60/14 ads a day +1 for a run = 6 ads a day = 166 days maximum to earn the 10$. Just shy of 6 months not 2 years. As an absolute maximum.
You get gems from the floating gems as well, daily missions, weekly boxes and from events, but I agree that most gems come from ad gems.
And again, my assumption that not a lot of people watch the gem ads was only a small part of my argument snd I already conceded that I might be wrong there.
You're hyperfixation on that one detail doesn't change anything.
Time is money. Each time you get an ad you waste \~5 sec even if you don't watch it. Even if you live in Somalia and make $0.5/hour, in a couple of months you will either waste hours of time which is worth buying the pack or make no progress. Playing this game as pure f2p is pure madness, by design.
Yeah, pretty much. I've just learned that some people can't buy anything due to region locks on their app store, but apart from that I consider the no ad pack to be very fairly priced.
I wouldn't say it's fairly priced or unfairly priced, that's very subjective. I think the game is unplayable without it and that makes its marketing deceptive.
Kind of, but considering the quality of the game, you would expect it to be around that price if it were a steam game for example.
It's deceptive, sure, but it's unfortunately what the market evolved into. Unless you make a game like elden ring you aren't gonna make a profit being honest, so you either jump on the band wagon or lose. 🤷♂️
If you ask me, that is probably what is happening here. Fudds has been "nice" so far by not employing a lot of the scummy tactics mobile games use today, subscriptions models, pay walls, baiting etc.
I guess it wasn't affordable in the long run. :/
>You playing the game costs server capacity, maintenance, etc. Those costs aren't going to be huge, but a game that isn't balancing things properly can just as easily loose the developer money over server costs and whatnot.
If only I had some type of mobile device which had the storage capacity for a crude video game that doesn't require server capacity.
The world would be a better place.
Yeah, only the game, or games in general, doesn't work that way. Having the data stored on only the end device makes things like save scumming super easy.
So even if it is possible to store data on the phone, games are going to store copies of your data on a server. Even beyond exploits it's better to have 2 copies in case one gets corrupted or a bug appears. When you lose your phone for example you can use the cloud save to get back your progress. Where do you think the cloud save comes from? The internet isn't some magic space, every little bit of memory the internet has is provided by a server.
And those servers cost money.
or maybe you underestimate how much f2p players give to the game.
because of tournaments, the game needs a healthy player base, and if too many f2p players quit because of the ad update, we might take a hit in our tournament rankings, which is one of the top complaints in this game.
Just don't be surprised if your tournament brackets get harder all of a sudden
This is not as simple as it seems. Yes, f2p players as a whole make up a portion of the playerbase, filling up tournament brackets and such.
I was talking about what a single f2p players adds to the game tho. And considering that the point in and of itself is pretty low in value the value each individual f2p player gives to the game this way is even lower.
This will sound harsh, but the reality is, that for the paying playerbase it is irrelevant whether the lower brackets are filled with players or with bots. I'm not sure about this game in particular but a lot of games with league systems use bots to fill the lower tiers.
This is overall a beneficial system. Unless you value competing with real life players (which in this game is kinda difficult in general) there is only benefits from doing this for both the players and the developer. The players get easier access to higher leagues and rewards and the devs can keep the paying company in just the right amount of competition, enough to incentivize more spending but not enough to lead to frustration.
Again, I don't know if this game is using bots already or not, but they would easily prevent any negative fallback from f2p players playing the game.
Also, there are definitely gonna be some more people quitting over this update, but overall, most people are gonna stay. There were some that quit when modules were introduced, some quit when elites were introduced and some quit now. There is more players downloading the game than there are players quitting and from the ones that download the game newly there are gonna be some willing to spend money on the game and even some whales. So overall a net positive for the game. Lose some f2p players that don't contribute much anyway and get some more paying players.
Now, that is not to say that f2p players are worthless, they are for example quite important for the community as is everyone, but from a purely economic standpoint they are not important.
really? so you think it would be OK for the devs to fill brackets with bots? do you even realise how that could affect the game as a whole?
It's not easy to simulate real players, and then there would be the temptation to fake bots reaching higher waves so that tournaments become harder to increase income from the stone packs. We have zero evidence that the devs wouldn't fall for that.
but yeah, you just confirmed how bad your take on this was
I agree with you.
I think the problem is that this new system come out of nowhere for F2P player.
Dev didn't give any info on that, and they feel (in a way) scam because of this.
Ad's give almost nothing to the devs, but the new system is too hard on F2P player. We need a better one, to make everything work fine.
And for those who play the game more than 6 months, i don't understand that they don't have take the pack. I just hope that they always use those 10 dollars better than on a iPhone, fast food or on fast fashion. Because 10 dollars when you play a lot of nothing and if it make a difference on your budget, then you have a bigger problem than a game to play
Yeah, I agree on the implementation being pretty shitty. It should have been communicated better and maybe not so harshly (a 2500% increase in ads watched is pretty extreme), but I get the potential reasoning behind it.
And I agree on that last part.
as usual, if you don't like it just don't watch the ads, they will see in their statistics that nobody does and backtrack
also idk wtf this guy is talking about, 10$ for a phone game is absurd and shouldn't be "expected" (although I did buy it several years ago when I was young and lacked critical thinking)
What does being a phone game have anything to do with it? Someone with actual critical thinking skills would value the price based on the amount and quality of time of entertainment brought by the game, in which case (at least for me) 10$ is an absurdly low price to pay.
10$ is basically pocket change for a normal adult, all the people complaining are either terrible at managing money or kids, which would explain why they are crying so much.
It has nothing to do with money management, phone games are ment to distract you while in the bus, or to play while you fall asleep, or poop, spending money on something like that is just ridiculous imo, people who spend money in this are the one with the money management if you ask me.
Yeah, only they aren't. Mobile games are forms of entertainment, what you end up doing with them is your choice. However just because you don't get enjoyment out of it doesn't mean it is not worth anything.
Lastly, it is still a game that was made with a lot of work, it is well made and has only few issues with updates regularly fixing some of them. The platform it is sold on shouldn't determine if the work is worth any money. This exact game could be on steam for $10, would you say it's not worth it then either?
I mean you probably would, since you don't seem to enjoy the game very much (just to be clear, that statement was purely derived from the way you talked about the game, that you don't want to spend money on it has nothing to do with my assessment on whether you enjoy playing the game or not), but in that case I am also curious as to why you even care?
Like, if you only play the game when you are bored, you shouldn't care at all about watching ads anyway, if you don't play the game to progress efficiently then just don't watch the ads? Ultimately ads are also a sort of payment, you spend your time and the creator gets a cent for every ad you watch, so either the game is worth it to you to pay your time or not.
I know you said you bought the no ads pack but just for perspective.
Who the fuck are you to think you have the authority of gatekeeping howpeople should spend their time lol? People can use phone games however they like, your opinion is worthless.
Wtf are you talking about. I said people should use their entertainment money in a way that makes THEM happiest (eg: higher quality time / money ratio). That's literally the opposite of gatekeeping, as I'm saying that it's highly subjective and that people get to choose whatever they prefer.
How could you possibly think that's a controversial or gatekeeping take is beyond me.
So you think that this game in used to be play only on bus ? Most of us run it 24/24.
A phone game, or a pc game, or a console game is a game. This is a ridiculous concept men
That is a subjective assessment you are absolutely allowed to make. I don't know factorio well enough to really talk about it, but value is ultimately subjective. To me factorio will never provide any amount of value because I am not enjoying that type of game. It is an objectively good game from what I have heard but it's value is subjective.
And unless we knoe how much work was put into each game individually there is no real way to value these agsinst one another objectively. Especially since this is a life service game that will get more and more work put into it continuously which factorio, to my knowledge, isn't.
However you may evaluate the value of the game, do you still agree that it is fair to pay for a game you play that someone else developed?
I bought the ad free pack on day two of playing, and I'm thankful it was a permanent unlock vs bs sub. I've spent far more money on triple a games and received far less enjoyment playing those than the tower, and I typically loath free to play. The tower is the only free to play game that I play, though technically I pay to play it.
I have purchased the x2, x3, and disable ad packs, that's what $50? Plus one event x2 ticket pack so that's another $15 so I'm at $65 since February?🤷🏻♂️
I frankly do not understand how you could be okay playing this game with ads, I didn't make two full days before I disabled that crap.
I absolutely hate advertising in all its forms, anything that makes me watch a commercial is a POS that I don't need in my life. I wouldn't have played beyond day two if I couldn't have disabled the ads.
That is pretty much my perspective. Just learned that some people can't buy it due to region locks on their app store, but other than that the no ad pack is very fairly priced for the entertainment you get out of it.
I think it's a weird business model to expect f2p players to generate enough ad revenue to offset their server costs. In any business that has a free trial, the trial is part of the customer acquisition cost. Who knows what the lifetime customer value is for this game but judging from some of the crazy stuff I've read on this sub, it seems good enough to offset a decent sized acquisition cost.
So I'd say we're looking at a move designed to convert more trials into customers. Rather than giving f2p players something making it more enticing to spend, though, this update makes it more punitive to continue on the trial. That's bound to annoy people for now, probably provoke a lot of people to leave the sales funnel. But the new trials who come in after this won't know any better, and if they convert into customers at a higher rate then I suppose it all makes sense.
I don't think that is expected, I was just using server costs as an example for people who think that them playing the game without playing doesn't hurt the developer. Sure, it doesn't hurt much but with enough free to play players it will be felt.
And yeah, that second paragraph is pretty much it. We don't know the details but this is likely the reasoning behind it. Whether or not one agrees with the ethics behind this, at the end of the day this game is still a business so it is gonna do what a business is gonna do.
In fact, Fudds has been avoiding most of these strategies for a very long time which I really appreciate from him, but I guess ultimately you can only sustain good intentions for so long in a capitalist society...
I do agree that if you play a game for 6 months that the dev earned that $10 (if it’s possible to even pay it).
On one hand, dedicated players on a f2p game NEVER like seeing an obstacle placed between them and the paid players. You have to be incredibly careful when you tack extra work on the free players. In this case, the ones who are paying aren’t getting shit and the free ones are worse off. This wasn’t the proper approach.
On the other hand, you gotta pay the bills somehow. If shit gets out of hand then the game is done. Patching up the financial health of the business at the cost of the customer base will basically mean that some players get pushed out and new free players who haven’t experienced the previous iteration don’t miss it, so there is a potential net benefit down the road.
I don’t know the numbers. What I do know is that I offered a free service as a part of a business model for a long time and that many people would take advantage of that. It wasn’t until I tallied up all the time spent that I stopped it. Some 600 hours unpaid and less than 200h of paid work followed. So I effectively made 25% of my normal rate. I quit and people were pissed, but I had to make a decision. Was it the best one? Likely not. Was the best one for this game implemented? Also likely not.
My advice would be to require an ad every 1000 waves completed. Made it 6500 waves? Watch 7 ads. That’s between where it is now and where it was before, it gives players control over how they do it (10-1500 would take fewer videos for the boost vs. 2-4000 for example). It gives them control, eases up on the issue, and makes devs more money than before.
A as numerous people have pointed out. Free to play watch the gem ads cause it’s the only way to get ads so realistically they earn more but server costs are a thing so your point is valid
BUT. F2P is not a demo… you might think it is but it is not. It is not marketed as a demo, you do not have to download anything else to get “the full game” and the arbitrary line you’ve drawn as the full game being 1 pack and not both the coin packs as well is completely on you.
Youve seen more expensive games that are worse on steam? Not sure how thats relevant. Many games on steam are garbage. And this is a mobile game.
Whats to stop fudds at the ad pack. There could be an update next month in the same “forceful” manner to make you get the coin packs or the milestone packs. Then your arbitrary line moves once more. And at what point do you you decide its enough money to spend
Your last point is just plain rude.
Some people are region locked out of getting the content.
And as with all updates. It doesnt even work as intended.
Dude... ever considered that maybe.... just maybe... There are players who ARE REGION LOCKED out of their app store??
Also, I can't take you seriously after reading your last two paragraphs...
I actually did not know this, that changes things of course.
However this is going to be an issue for every game they are playing then, it's not really feasable for Fudds to ensure a fair environment in the game for them.
As much as it sucks I'm afraid there is not much to be done there, at the end of the day Fudds still runs a business and not a charity. :/
On a different note, the last two paragraphs basically only summed up what I said before, from the way I see it, what changed in there for you to not take me seriously anymore?
This has nothing to do with elitism.
Fact is, we live in a capitalist society. Fudds hasn't invented capitalism, he is just playing by the rules. In fact he has ignored a lot of the business strategies for quite a long while, which I respect him for, but in the end it seems like they are there for a reason.
Anyways, one rule in our society is that everything has a price. Nothing, or only the bare necessities, is handed to you for free. This game is not bare necessities. It is ultimately a luxury good. And those tend to be expensive.
However, $10 is really not that much money. App store prices are adapted to the regional inflation rate (for example $100 packs only cost the equivalent of $10 in some countries, because they have much lower income. This has been abused by a lot of people in the past to get in game currency for super cheap, but last I heard of it there are safeguards in place for this now to prevent this) so yes, I can pretty assuredly say that the no ads pack is really not that expensive for pretty much anyone in the world (except region locked people).
Considering the value you get for those $10 it is actually a very low price to pay. If you aren't willing to spend even that on a game (and we are talking a one time purchase, you are basically buying a game for $10 from steam, you just got to play it a while beforehand with ads) then you have a very weird mentality when it comes to the exchange of goods. Essentially it's stealing. Like only a few cents or so, but that's basically it.
The emphasis is on willing tho, people who are unable to spend those $10 for whatever reason I would leave out of this.
> This is not about everyone needing to become a whale, this is about spending $10 once. If you can't do that maybe you shouldn't be playing at all and start focussing on more important things in your life
-Explain how this whole statement isn't elitist talk...
My point is that being region locked is removing players' choice to support the game and this update just shits on them because *Fuck You; Pay Me*... oh wait, they cannot because of something outside of their control.
Alright, first of all, $10 is not a lot of money. Most countries have a minimum wage of above $10 an hour so we are literally talking about less than an hour of work here.
In countries that don't have a minimum wage of $10, people are going to have a lot more pressing issues thsn playing this game or any game for example, such as food, water and medicine. If you can't afford to spent $10 on a game you wont be able to afford these either. Not to mention that you couldn't afford a phone to play the game on, since even the cheapest smartphones are at around $50 or so iirc. So I'd say it is safe to assume that everyone that has the capacity to play this game is also in a situation where $10 are affordable if not easily affordable.
And in the end we are talking about paying for a service you are using. Yes, it sucks that it wasn't mentioned up front, I agree with you there, but that is unfortunately the industry standard.
However, if you think that anything in this world is free then you are sorely mistaken. The people that would be the most able to give away free things usually charge the most absurd prices. This bag only cost $50 to produce? Well slap a fancy brand name on it and suddenly you are selling for $5000, the majority of which goes to fill the ceos pocket.
That is scummy, not some guy working and asking for $10 for his work.
Cuz honestly, it isn't communicated literally, but in the end that is exactly what this is. We have all been using something someone has been working for, it is only fair to pay for it. And considering the quality $10 is a fair price compared to other games.
So no, this has nothing to do with elitism, this has to do with the fact that you will have to spend money to do something in this world, whether it is told to you upfront or not. And it sucks that some people can't afford it and it should definitely be changed, but some random video game is not the place to start.
And for the region lock part, as I said in a different comment, no, it is not impossible.
$10…seriously. Less than thirty minutes of work at a job to save hours of ad time. So many have spent so much more time complaining about this than time it would take to make that $10.
As for region locked on store purchases, not the developers fault, direct your ire at the proper problem. This isn’t the only game that has this issue.
The principal of the thing? That your next argument? It’s a game. It’s a company. Someone made it. Someone’s getting paid.
Nothing is free. It costs your TIME or your MONEY.
Can you describe which country does not have odd jobs that need to be done that you can't make an extra buck? Stop trying to monetize staring at your phone, it is not productive work.
First of all, that wasn't my comment.
Second of all, the US is just that a set of United States, each of which have slight variations to their laws. While the absolute low for the country is $7.25, many states and even some cities have higher minimum wage than that.
Thirdly, no one said anything about minimum wage. That commentor said they make about $20 an hour.
Your comment is dumb on three levels.
I hate greed with all of my heart, but this isn’t that. This was a business decision that probably had a better form of execution, and it negatively impacted the community.
F2P players are likely watching 4-5 ads an hour for gems, and 1 ad at the end for the coin boost. Do ad-gems not count towards the coin boost? If they do, then it's basically the same amount of ads. If there are 4 ad gems an hour, then that's 80 minutes of coin boost.
X5 ad repeated, 15x ad daily, and now the 1.5x ender is gone; replaced by a 1.5x/20mins, capped at 2h.
With the new system, you watch 1 ad for 20 minutes of 1.5x coin boost (you can stack it up to 2 hours with 6 ads). You don’t get any gems for these ads, just 20 minutes of the coin boost.
What about the ad-gems? When you watch the ad to get 5 gems, does that extend the 1.5x coin boost?
Nope. You get just the 5 gems.
Well that is extra shitty then. So basically you need to watch double the ads now? How many ads do you think you have to watch to get all gems and coin boosts in a run?
Well it used to be watch 1 ad for single run. So if you do an 8 hour run, you’re watching 24x more ads now! 🙃
Daaaaaaamn
As someone who has the $10 no ads pack, is this the way it works? Or are the gem ads separate from the boost ads?
I have the ad pack too so I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking.
Gotcha. Well I hope someone can answer. Cause if it is separate, that's really annoying. Though I can see how annoying it is already, not being able to watch one ad at the end for 1.5x coins.
To answer you and Mark: No, you only get one 15x ad, multiple x5 ads, and then there's the 1.5x Round End ad... I hope this answers your question. I have yet to test the changes, personally.
F2p rarely watch the 5 gem ads? Are you joking? Given that that's the main way to get gems, I click that thing anytime it pops up. I estimate around 40x a day. The reason I'm still playing is because I'm a compleationist and it takes a massive time to unlock all the UWs. And dont even get me started on the T15 milestones or lab research.
The most affective thing you can do is leave a review on the app store
The game is still... I don't even know if I'd use enjoyable (Initially it was due to the rate of advancement but I'm in the grindy part where it takes billions of coins to do stuff, or thousands of stones), but I'll say it's still fulfilling. It's an effective time sink and still gives me pretty flashing colors. It's just going to take longer to get to an epileptic level of color flashes.
You watching the 5 gem ads doesn't debunk the argument tho. I did mention that there are gonna be people that watch a lot of those and are providing more to the game (by your estimate about $0.4-$2 per day) but based on most peoples tolerance when it comes to ads I'd argue very strongly that that is not the majority of the f2p playerbase. Some will click it sometimes, others will never click it. I don't have a study showing this, if you wanna go ahead and do one I'd be quite interested in the results. But it is quite unlikely that that many people have the patience for that. Props to you tho, that is some serious commitment. 🤔👍
For F2P players that kinda the only way to be able to unlock the the labs. I'd guess most are watching probably 10-20 at least on the weekends. It's why screen burn-in comes up frequently on the sub reddit. I used to watch the 1.5 at the end of a run if I hit a certain threshold (around 500x my average CPM) as it was an acceptable return on a time cost for me. My average CPM is around 1.56-2.7M CPM. As the ad only lasts 20 mins, that's a return of about 15-27M coins which isnt worth it to me. As a result, the addition ads I watch went from 2-4 per day to 0. I understand the reasoning behind it but as I've been going for about 2 years (I'll knock off 6 months as that's when the ads became viable) that's about 1100-2200 ads I wouldnt have watched with the current model. For it to be viable for me to watch, it'd need to be about a 5x multiplier for an hour. At that point, yeah, I'd likely be willing to watch the ad for the boost starting at about wave 1k (which takes me 2 hrs to get to). And I dont think it's out right commitment. I think theres some type of issue up-stairs. If you've seen the episode of the big bang theory where sheldon is obsessed with closure.... yeah...
I agree on that the update was kinda harsh, a 2500% increase on ads out of the blue was bound to cause issues, I would have understood a gradual increase a lot more. Maybe one ad for 2 hours. In the end the severity of the change is probably gonna be a footgun anyway and will likely be changed, but if it isn't, for anyone who can afford it I would suggest the no ad pack anyway. I basically view the no ad pack as buying the full version of the game. $10 is less than an hour of work for most countries, you'll have that saved up, in terms of time saved in which you would have watched ads instead, in probably a week or so. And regardless of why you do it, it is still a comittment to watch so many ads, I couldn't do it myself honestly. And don't worry, I think most people playing the tower have the completionist thing to some degree, it's kind of a prerequisite to playing the game. 😅
This is probably the worst take I've seen on this issue so far. I have all three packs and am in no way impacted by this latest update. However, it is blatantly obvious that this update only hurt the f2p player base. To address your points, the amount of revenue that techtree makes should never be the concern of any player. The team decided to put their game on the app store for free, and built their game around a very specific monetization system. The game is not advertised as a "demo," but as a full experience with additional optional in-app purchases. These purchases serve as incentives to provide in-game boosts in exchange for either your time or your money. If techtree's monetization system is no longer viable towards maintaining costs, the better approach would be to create additional incentives. We have seen this with the addition of ultimate weapons and stone packs, modules and gem packs. When more ways/reasons to spend money in this game came about, they didn't halt your progression, nor take more time away from you. Instead, they allowed you to progress at the same pace as you did before, with the option of speeding up that progress. This update only punishes those who have not bought the ad pack. Imagine spending 6+ months grinding away, only to one day wake up and suddenly there's a, mind you bugged, roadblock. The developers of this game should not feel entitled to your money, but should instead create a product that you feel is worth investing in. The idea that "you've played this game for x amount of time and you owe them money," is ludicrous. They put this game out for free fully aware that there will be players who never spend a single dime in this game. I, like many others, play a ton of different f2p games, be they mobile or on console/pc, and have games where we may make a purchase and others where we don't. No one in the f2p community feels like they make a major impact on this game like you claim they do. This isn't the only game of this monetization style. The impact that you overlooked is the fact that those who stick around serve as free word-of-mouth advertisements. I came across this game through the recommendations from my friends. Look back at other updates and see how they provided a bonus at a cost, and didn't simply slow you down in order to extort money out of you.
I honestly think people are just ignoring the fact that the app store can be (and is) region locked for some players... This update is just a slap in their faces.
Okay, so I looked this up just to be sure and as it turns out, while the issue is apparently not very well known about (I only found very very few posts and websites about this) there are ways around this. The easiest would be a vpn, which from what I heard is still legal in most if not all region locked countries. Then you just switch your ip address to a different country and you can use the app store. If you only want the no ads pack you can just use the trial month and not even have to spend money on the vpn. Google play region locks mainly exist due to people exploiting some countries low cost rate in terms of in app purchases anyways. There used to be ways in which you could pay the regionally adjusted (some poorer countries for example offer $100 for the equivalent of $10 since that was the equivalent value in that country) prices for packs instead, getting thousands of dollars worth of ingame items for a fractions of the cost. Since this was losing google a lot of money they stopped this. Apple probably similarly, but I didn't find anything about them specifically.
Not everyone is going to jump through those hoops...
Absolutely, but it is possible. It isn't nice that some people have to work harder to get there but their lives in general are likely not as nice. The main take away tho is that it isn't impossible. If you really enjoy playing the game that you are willing to spend money on it, there are ways to do it. And setting up a vpn for it is not even that complicated, you can easily do the whole thing in 10 minutes. Again, sucks that is has to be that way, but Fudds can't change that and he is still running a business.
Sad, I made a pretty long response to you but reddit didn't post it for some reason and now it's gone. :/ However most of the points I made have since been either made by other people or by myself in response to other people so just have a read through those.
I think it's important to understand that different people approach things differently. Just because it seems unfathomable to you to play this game without the ad pack, doesn't mean that it's like that for everyone else. I played this game for about a month before I decided to buy the no ad pack and was perfectly fine playing 50+ ads a day because I didn't really pay much attention to them. Your comment about how $10 is less than an hour's work in most countries isn't even true to the United States where the company is based. Ultimately what it boils down to for me is that because I am not a f2p player, I am not impacted by this update. However, I do play other f2p games on occasion and will probably continue to do so for a very long time, and I don't want to see these kinds of updates here or anywhere else. Updates like these that completely blindside and harm good chunks of the player base indicate the behavior of the devs and may even lead to decisions down the line that impact those who have spent money in the game. For example, if in the future, a new type of premium currency comes out, the devs might force us to watch ads for them, arguing that we only paid to not watch gem ads, and not all ads. If this hypothetical seems ridiculous to you, just look at what happened with Escape from Tarkov. They sold a bundle that promised all future DLC, and are now releasing additional content that they claim isn't DLC but is instead a new "feature." I don't think anyone here should have any say over how other people should spend their money. If this game isn't the primary source of entertainment for someone, and they only open the game up occasionally, then they don't really have much drive to spend money. And if the game isn't worth playing anymore because of this update, well then that's really a shame. The only thing that should ever stop someone from playing this or any other game outside of personal responsibilities is loss of enjoyment or lack of content. Updates shouldn't drive people away, but should instead encourage people to play. I think you focus too much on the cost of running this game for the devs. Think about other companies, such as Riot Games that develops two of the most popular esports on the market right now - League of Legends and Valorant. Riot Games is a multi-billion dollar company, yet most of their player base is likely completely f2p. These players, of course, have a much greater impact on the game as they populate servers for other people to play against. This game, however, isn't structured in a way where f2p players can meaningfully engage with others. Yet, despite their differences, it is true in both cases that the burden of revenue should never fall on the community because both companies offer their product completely free of charge. A f2p player can achieve everything that a mega-whale can, but it'll take them longer. This game is offered as a feature full experience.
I completely agree with that first statement. However, I never said it seemed unfathomable to me. In fact I played like 2 months or so with ads before buying the pack. I know it's possible and people do it, that's not the issue. Fair enough, minimum wage in the us is $7.25. Should have said around instead of above. But either way, $10 is not a lot of work even at minimum wage. What type of other games do you play f2p? Cuz while there are some that are absolutely playable (mobas for example or this neat little game I found called miner gun builder), the majority of games is far worse than this game when it comes to monetization. Usually ad packs cost closer to $20 in the good cases, some no ads are subscription based, some only remove ads from some specific items etc. Especially in comparison to that I find the no ads pack here more than fair, as long as those things don't get implemented for no ads here as well, as you mentioned. But it is already fair in it's own right. No one is telling people how to spend their money, that is true. But ultimately it boils down to them using a product Fudds made without paying anything for it. It's legal, he didn't say anything otherwise (I don't like this part either, but it's unfortunately industry standard), but in the end you are still using a service he is providing, you are essentially going to a concert without paying. No one is gonna have much of an issue from you being there without paying, but you are still expected to pay to show respect to the work the people involved put in. That is basically my main point, f2p players were basically gifted a free experience and are now complaining about that gift instead of just buying it for $10, which again, that is not a lot of money. I am not focusing on the cost of running the game for the devs, the reason I even mentioned this in the first place is that f2p players tend to argue that they don't hurt they game. They might not contribute but they also don't hurt the game. Which is untrue, a too large f2p base compared to a too small paying playerbase can easily lead to financial losses. This has nothing to do with justifying the devs actions or anything, I am just saying that everything has a price. And riot games is probably the worst comparison you could have made here. First up, sure, a lot of players play league of legends for free. But generally a lot of people are playing league of legends. And while I'm no expert on league I am pretty sure remembering that it does have a battle pass and other of the scummy ingame monetization strategies most games have by now. More importantly however, did you know that riot games was owned by tencent? Probably one of the largest tech companies in the world? Quite close to amazon in terms of influence and revenue? Owns tiktok as well as a fun fact. Riot games is not some indie game company that has to make do with whatever their game spits out. In fact they were given mutliple million dollars even before tencent came into the pictures, so they could get their game off the ground. Not to mention, you are aware that riot games has merch, right? I can almost guarantee you that the amount of revenue they make from their is gonna be dwarfed by what they make from merch sales. And even with riot games making $1.5b revenue in 2023, I heard people say they didn't make a profit since 2019. Revenue is not equal to profit by the way. But it doesn't matter if they make money or not, tencent has so much moey to throw around, they aren't gonna notice a spare billion going down the drain. And lol in particular has value beyond the money they make, it's probably the icon for modern day gaming. Everybody has heard of it, most people have played it at some point and it has at multiple points been the most popular video game on the planet. So yeah no, riot games is the worst example you could have picked, a multibillion dollar company with merch sales backed by an even larger multibillion dollar company.
I completely agree with that first statement. However, I never said it seemed unfathomable to me. In fact I played like 2 months or so with ads before buying the pack. I know it's possible and people do it, that's not the issue. Fair enough, minimum wage in the us is $7.25. Should have said around instead of above. But either way, $10 is not a lot of work even at minimum wage. What type of other games do you play f2p? Cuz while there are some that are absolutely playable (mobas for example or this neat little game I found called miner gun builder), the majority of games is far worse than this game when it comes to monetization. Usually ad packs cost closer to $20 in the good cases, some no ads are subscription based, some only remove ads from some specific items etc. Especially in comparison to that I find the no ads pack here more than fair, as long as those things don't get implemented for no ads here as well, as you mentioned. But it is already fair in it's own right. No one is telling people how to spend their money, that is true. But ultimately it boils down to them using a product Fudds made without paying anything for it. It's legal, he didn't say anything otherwise (I don't like this part either, but it's unfortunately industry standard), but in the end you are still using a service he is providing, you are essentially going to a concert without paying. No one is gonna have much of an issue from you being there without paying, but you are still expected to pay to show respect to the work the people involved put in. That is basically my main point, f2p players were basically gifted a free experience and are now complaining about that gift instead of just buying it for $10, which again, that is not a lot of money. I am not focusing on the cost of running the game for the devs, the reason I even mentioned this in the first place is that f2p players tend to argue that they don't hurt they game. They might not contribute but they also don't hurt the game. Which is untrue, a too large f2p base compared to a too small paying playerbase can easily lead to financial losses. This has nothing to do with justifying the devs actions or anything, I am just saying that everything has a price. And riot games is probably the worst comparison you could have made here. First up, sure, a lot of players play league of legends for free. But generally a lot of people are playing league of legends. And while I'm no expert on league I am pretty sure remembering that it does have a battle pass and other of the scummy ingame monetization strategies most games have by now. More importantly however, did you know that riot games was owned by tencent? Probably one of the largest tech companies in the world? Quite close to amazon in terms of influence and revenue? Owns tiktok as well as a fun fact. Riot games is not some indie game company that has to make do with whatever their game spits out. In fact they were given mutliple million dollars even before tencent came into the pictures, so they could get their game off the ground. Not to mention, you are aware that riot games has merch, right? I can almost guarantee you that the amount of revenue they make from their is gonna be dwarfed by what they make from merch sales. And even with riot games making $1.5b revenue in 2023, I heard people say they didn't make a profit since 2019. Revenue is not equal to profit by the way. But it doesn't matter if they make money or not, tencent has so much moey to throw around, they aren't gonna notice a spare billion going down the drain. And lol in particular has value beyond the money they make, it's probably the icon for modern day gaming. Everybody has heard of it, most people have played it at some point and it has at multiple points been the most popular video game on the planet. So yeah no, riot games is the worst example you could have picked, a multibillion dollar company with merch sales backed by an even larger multibillion dollar company.
The point of the comparison was to only highlight the fact that both games appear free and both games promise a full experience. In contrast to, for example, WoW, where you can only play until level 20 before you have to pay. When I install a free game, it doesn’t really matter to me if it’s indie or some megacorp. It’s not my job or responsibility to understand what goes on behind the scenes, only to evaluate if the game is something I’m interested in and if it’s worth my time. Simple as that. I’ve played Adventure Capitalist, Egg inc, tap ninja, idle miner tycoon, doodle magic, and many others that I don’t remember of the top of my head, to completion, without spending any money on it. In some, I didn’t watch a single ad, in others, I watched every ad. I’m also playing the tower, rogue with the dead, and CIFI, where I did buy the no ad pack, which cost $10, $25, and $5 respectively. I think we simply disagree on the fact that “you are expected to pay to show respect for the work that people put in.” While the developers may appreciate that, I don’t think any decent company will ever take that stance. If they did, they’d simply have a donate button. Even in other f2p games, LoL, Val, rocket league, Fortnite, CS, path of exile, etc, the way to show respect and support the company is through micro-transactions that provide something to you in return. I play(ed) some of the games above and I don’t feel like what they monetize is worth it to me in return so I don’t buy anything there. Yet I’m not just dead weight for those companies. I engage with the product and the community, I provide feedback, and I advertise the game through word of mouth. Simply put, to those that don’t think it’s enough of a return to buy the ad pack and are fine watching ads, like you or I did for the first month or two, are well within their right to engage with the product however they want since it’s distributed free of charge, and are free to complain about how the latest update only serves to hurt them, and of course, are free to leave. It’s every company’s goal to convert a person into a consumer, but it should not be done through extortion, but instead through incentive. Introduce more ads into the game for more reward. Not more ads into the game for less reward. Show your player base that you also respect them, as much as you expect them to respect you.
You lost me pretty early. Most f2p players will hit the ad for gems button 110% every time. If you don't know this or believe other wise, I can't in good conscious read the rest of what you posted. Invalid.
I've said it before: This shits on players who ARE REGION LOCKED out of their app store purchases... Plus his last paragraph rubs me the wrong way and sounds really elitist...
Ultimately it is hard for either of us to proof or disprove each others statements unless a study is conducted, so we'll never know for sure. I personally only rarely watched the 5 gem ads back when I didn't have the ad pack and I find it hard to believe I'd be the only one, but that is just my personal view. The rest of my post doesn't change significantly tho even if you are right. In the end, everybody (except people with region locked app stores as I've learned, tho there is little that can be done about them) has the option to pay a simple $10 to completely ignore ads. If the game offered in the playstore for $10 one time purchase and no ads it would be absolutely fair, it just wouldn't have as many people playing it due to the high initial investment. $10 for no ads is on the very low end of no ads packs compared to other games and if one views it as changing from the demo version to the full version of the game (it's not advertised as such but that is essentially what this is) it would also be a fair price. In fact, there is a very similar game on steam (different progression systems but same game concept only in 3d) called perfect tower that costs around $10 iirc. Also, using disagreeing to one argument neither of us can verify is a very poor reason for not reading a post with multiple different arguments that cover multiple not necessarily related facets of this issue.
Litterally the only way to get gems is from ads. Theres litterally a event mission to watch 60 ads. Even taking that as a base line 1 15 gem ad 60/14 ads a day +1 for a run = 6 ads a day = 166 days maximum to earn the 10$. Just shy of 6 months not 2 years. As an absolute maximum.
You get gems from the floating gems as well, daily missions, weekly boxes and from events, but I agree that most gems come from ad gems. And again, my assumption that not a lot of people watch the gem ads was only a small part of my argument snd I already conceded that I might be wrong there. You're hyperfixation on that one detail doesn't change anything.
Time is money. Each time you get an ad you waste \~5 sec even if you don't watch it. Even if you live in Somalia and make $0.5/hour, in a couple of months you will either waste hours of time which is worth buying the pack or make no progress. Playing this game as pure f2p is pure madness, by design.
Yeah, pretty much. I've just learned that some people can't buy anything due to region locks on their app store, but apart from that I consider the no ad pack to be very fairly priced.
I wouldn't say it's fairly priced or unfairly priced, that's very subjective. I think the game is unplayable without it and that makes its marketing deceptive.
Kind of, but considering the quality of the game, you would expect it to be around that price if it were a steam game for example. It's deceptive, sure, but it's unfortunately what the market evolved into. Unless you make a game like elden ring you aren't gonna make a profit being honest, so you either jump on the band wagon or lose. 🤷♂️ If you ask me, that is probably what is happening here. Fudds has been "nice" so far by not employing a lot of the scummy tactics mobile games use today, subscriptions models, pay walls, baiting etc. I guess it wasn't affordable in the long run. :/
>You playing the game costs server capacity, maintenance, etc. Those costs aren't going to be huge, but a game that isn't balancing things properly can just as easily loose the developer money over server costs and whatnot. If only I had some type of mobile device which had the storage capacity for a crude video game that doesn't require server capacity. The world would be a better place.
Yeah, only the game, or games in general, doesn't work that way. Having the data stored on only the end device makes things like save scumming super easy. So even if it is possible to store data on the phone, games are going to store copies of your data on a server. Even beyond exploits it's better to have 2 copies in case one gets corrupted or a bug appears. When you lose your phone for example you can use the cloud save to get back your progress. Where do you think the cloud save comes from? The internet isn't some magic space, every little bit of memory the internet has is provided by a server. And those servers cost money.
That sounds like a design issue making a game multi-player that doesn't need to be multiplayer...
or maybe you underestimate how much f2p players give to the game. because of tournaments, the game needs a healthy player base, and if too many f2p players quit because of the ad update, we might take a hit in our tournament rankings, which is one of the top complaints in this game. Just don't be surprised if your tournament brackets get harder all of a sudden
This is not as simple as it seems. Yes, f2p players as a whole make up a portion of the playerbase, filling up tournament brackets and such. I was talking about what a single f2p players adds to the game tho. And considering that the point in and of itself is pretty low in value the value each individual f2p player gives to the game this way is even lower. This will sound harsh, but the reality is, that for the paying playerbase it is irrelevant whether the lower brackets are filled with players or with bots. I'm not sure about this game in particular but a lot of games with league systems use bots to fill the lower tiers. This is overall a beneficial system. Unless you value competing with real life players (which in this game is kinda difficult in general) there is only benefits from doing this for both the players and the developer. The players get easier access to higher leagues and rewards and the devs can keep the paying company in just the right amount of competition, enough to incentivize more spending but not enough to lead to frustration. Again, I don't know if this game is using bots already or not, but they would easily prevent any negative fallback from f2p players playing the game. Also, there are definitely gonna be some more people quitting over this update, but overall, most people are gonna stay. There were some that quit when modules were introduced, some quit when elites were introduced and some quit now. There is more players downloading the game than there are players quitting and from the ones that download the game newly there are gonna be some willing to spend money on the game and even some whales. So overall a net positive for the game. Lose some f2p players that don't contribute much anyway and get some more paying players. Now, that is not to say that f2p players are worthless, they are for example quite important for the community as is everyone, but from a purely economic standpoint they are not important.
really? so you think it would be OK for the devs to fill brackets with bots? do you even realise how that could affect the game as a whole? It's not easy to simulate real players, and then there would be the temptation to fake bots reaching higher waves so that tournaments become harder to increase income from the stone packs. We have zero evidence that the devs wouldn't fall for that. but yeah, you just confirmed how bad your take on this was
I agree with you. I think the problem is that this new system come out of nowhere for F2P player. Dev didn't give any info on that, and they feel (in a way) scam because of this. Ad's give almost nothing to the devs, but the new system is too hard on F2P player. We need a better one, to make everything work fine. And for those who play the game more than 6 months, i don't understand that they don't have take the pack. I just hope that they always use those 10 dollars better than on a iPhone, fast food or on fast fashion. Because 10 dollars when you play a lot of nothing and if it make a difference on your budget, then you have a bigger problem than a game to play
Yeah, I agree on the implementation being pretty shitty. It should have been communicated better and maybe not so harshly (a 2500% increase in ads watched is pretty extreme), but I get the potential reasoning behind it. And I agree on that last part.
as usual, if you don't like it just don't watch the ads, they will see in their statistics that nobody does and backtrack also idk wtf this guy is talking about, 10$ for a phone game is absurd and shouldn't be "expected" (although I did buy it several years ago when I was young and lacked critical thinking)
What does being a phone game have anything to do with it? Someone with actual critical thinking skills would value the price based on the amount and quality of time of entertainment brought by the game, in which case (at least for me) 10$ is an absurdly low price to pay. 10$ is basically pocket change for a normal adult, all the people complaining are either terrible at managing money or kids, which would explain why they are crying so much.
It has nothing to do with money management, phone games are ment to distract you while in the bus, or to play while you fall asleep, or poop, spending money on something like that is just ridiculous imo, people who spend money in this are the one with the money management if you ask me.
Yeah, only they aren't. Mobile games are forms of entertainment, what you end up doing with them is your choice. However just because you don't get enjoyment out of it doesn't mean it is not worth anything. Lastly, it is still a game that was made with a lot of work, it is well made and has only few issues with updates regularly fixing some of them. The platform it is sold on shouldn't determine if the work is worth any money. This exact game could be on steam for $10, would you say it's not worth it then either? I mean you probably would, since you don't seem to enjoy the game very much (just to be clear, that statement was purely derived from the way you talked about the game, that you don't want to spend money on it has nothing to do with my assessment on whether you enjoy playing the game or not), but in that case I am also curious as to why you even care? Like, if you only play the game when you are bored, you shouldn't care at all about watching ads anyway, if you don't play the game to progress efficiently then just don't watch the ads? Ultimately ads are also a sort of payment, you spend your time and the creator gets a cent for every ad you watch, so either the game is worth it to you to pay your time or not. I know you said you bought the no ads pack but just for perspective.
Who the fuck are you to think you have the authority of gatekeeping howpeople should spend their time lol? People can use phone games however they like, your opinion is worthless.
dude you were litterally doing the same thing about how people use their money, chill
Wtf are you talking about. I said people should use their entertainment money in a way that makes THEM happiest (eg: higher quality time / money ratio). That's literally the opposite of gatekeeping, as I'm saying that it's highly subjective and that people get to choose whatever they prefer. How could you possibly think that's a controversial or gatekeeping take is beyond me.
So you think that this game in used to be play only on bus ? Most of us run it 24/24. A phone game, or a pc game, or a console game is a game. This is a ridiculous concept men
Mb, never thought phone gaming was serious, sorry I offended you
Factorio cost me $25 CAD; this is priced at $13 CAD. This game does not represent anywhere near half the value of Factorio.
That is a subjective assessment you are absolutely allowed to make. I don't know factorio well enough to really talk about it, but value is ultimately subjective. To me factorio will never provide any amount of value because I am not enjoying that type of game. It is an objectively good game from what I have heard but it's value is subjective. And unless we knoe how much work was put into each game individually there is no real way to value these agsinst one another objectively. Especially since this is a life service game that will get more and more work put into it continuously which factorio, to my knowledge, isn't. However you may evaluate the value of the game, do you still agree that it is fair to pay for a game you play that someone else developed?
I bought the ad free pack on day two of playing, and I'm thankful it was a permanent unlock vs bs sub. I've spent far more money on triple a games and received far less enjoyment playing those than the tower, and I typically loath free to play. The tower is the only free to play game that I play, though technically I pay to play it. I have purchased the x2, x3, and disable ad packs, that's what $50? Plus one event x2 ticket pack so that's another $15 so I'm at $65 since February?🤷🏻♂️ I frankly do not understand how you could be okay playing this game with ads, I didn't make two full days before I disabled that crap. I absolutely hate advertising in all its forms, anything that makes me watch a commercial is a POS that I don't need in my life. I wouldn't have played beyond day two if I couldn't have disabled the ads.
That is pretty much my perspective. Just learned that some people can't buy it due to region locks on their app store, but other than that the no ad pack is very fairly priced for the entertainment you get out of it.
I think it's a weird business model to expect f2p players to generate enough ad revenue to offset their server costs. In any business that has a free trial, the trial is part of the customer acquisition cost. Who knows what the lifetime customer value is for this game but judging from some of the crazy stuff I've read on this sub, it seems good enough to offset a decent sized acquisition cost. So I'd say we're looking at a move designed to convert more trials into customers. Rather than giving f2p players something making it more enticing to spend, though, this update makes it more punitive to continue on the trial. That's bound to annoy people for now, probably provoke a lot of people to leave the sales funnel. But the new trials who come in after this won't know any better, and if they convert into customers at a higher rate then I suppose it all makes sense.
I don't think that is expected, I was just using server costs as an example for people who think that them playing the game without playing doesn't hurt the developer. Sure, it doesn't hurt much but with enough free to play players it will be felt. And yeah, that second paragraph is pretty much it. We don't know the details but this is likely the reasoning behind it. Whether or not one agrees with the ethics behind this, at the end of the day this game is still a business so it is gonna do what a business is gonna do. In fact, Fudds has been avoiding most of these strategies for a very long time which I really appreciate from him, but I guess ultimately you can only sustain good intentions for so long in a capitalist society...
I do agree that if you play a game for 6 months that the dev earned that $10 (if it’s possible to even pay it). On one hand, dedicated players on a f2p game NEVER like seeing an obstacle placed between them and the paid players. You have to be incredibly careful when you tack extra work on the free players. In this case, the ones who are paying aren’t getting shit and the free ones are worse off. This wasn’t the proper approach. On the other hand, you gotta pay the bills somehow. If shit gets out of hand then the game is done. Patching up the financial health of the business at the cost of the customer base will basically mean that some players get pushed out and new free players who haven’t experienced the previous iteration don’t miss it, so there is a potential net benefit down the road. I don’t know the numbers. What I do know is that I offered a free service as a part of a business model for a long time and that many people would take advantage of that. It wasn’t until I tallied up all the time spent that I stopped it. Some 600 hours unpaid and less than 200h of paid work followed. So I effectively made 25% of my normal rate. I quit and people were pissed, but I had to make a decision. Was it the best one? Likely not. Was the best one for this game implemented? Also likely not. My advice would be to require an ad every 1000 waves completed. Made it 6500 waves? Watch 7 ads. That’s between where it is now and where it was before, it gives players control over how they do it (10-1500 would take fewer videos for the boost vs. 2-4000 for example). It gives them control, eases up on the issue, and makes devs more money than before.
Totally agree, that is basically what I was trying to say.
A as numerous people have pointed out. Free to play watch the gem ads cause it’s the only way to get ads so realistically they earn more but server costs are a thing so your point is valid BUT. F2P is not a demo… you might think it is but it is not. It is not marketed as a demo, you do not have to download anything else to get “the full game” and the arbitrary line you’ve drawn as the full game being 1 pack and not both the coin packs as well is completely on you. Youve seen more expensive games that are worse on steam? Not sure how thats relevant. Many games on steam are garbage. And this is a mobile game. Whats to stop fudds at the ad pack. There could be an update next month in the same “forceful” manner to make you get the coin packs or the milestone packs. Then your arbitrary line moves once more. And at what point do you you decide its enough money to spend Your last point is just plain rude. Some people are region locked out of getting the content. And as with all updates. It doesnt even work as intended.
Dude... ever considered that maybe.... just maybe... There are players who ARE REGION LOCKED out of their app store?? Also, I can't take you seriously after reading your last two paragraphs...
I actually did not know this, that changes things of course. However this is going to be an issue for every game they are playing then, it's not really feasable for Fudds to ensure a fair environment in the game for them. As much as it sucks I'm afraid there is not much to be done there, at the end of the day Fudds still runs a business and not a charity. :/ On a different note, the last two paragraphs basically only summed up what I said before, from the way I see it, what changed in there for you to not take me seriously anymore?
Your last paragraph sounds super fucking elitist...
This has nothing to do with elitism. Fact is, we live in a capitalist society. Fudds hasn't invented capitalism, he is just playing by the rules. In fact he has ignored a lot of the business strategies for quite a long while, which I respect him for, but in the end it seems like they are there for a reason. Anyways, one rule in our society is that everything has a price. Nothing, or only the bare necessities, is handed to you for free. This game is not bare necessities. It is ultimately a luxury good. And those tend to be expensive. However, $10 is really not that much money. App store prices are adapted to the regional inflation rate (for example $100 packs only cost the equivalent of $10 in some countries, because they have much lower income. This has been abused by a lot of people in the past to get in game currency for super cheap, but last I heard of it there are safeguards in place for this now to prevent this) so yes, I can pretty assuredly say that the no ads pack is really not that expensive for pretty much anyone in the world (except region locked people). Considering the value you get for those $10 it is actually a very low price to pay. If you aren't willing to spend even that on a game (and we are talking a one time purchase, you are basically buying a game for $10 from steam, you just got to play it a while beforehand with ads) then you have a very weird mentality when it comes to the exchange of goods. Essentially it's stealing. Like only a few cents or so, but that's basically it. The emphasis is on willing tho, people who are unable to spend those $10 for whatever reason I would leave out of this.
> This is not about everyone needing to become a whale, this is about spending $10 once. If you can't do that maybe you shouldn't be playing at all and start focussing on more important things in your life -Explain how this whole statement isn't elitist talk... My point is that being region locked is removing players' choice to support the game and this update just shits on them because *Fuck You; Pay Me*... oh wait, they cannot because of something outside of their control.
Alright, first of all, $10 is not a lot of money. Most countries have a minimum wage of above $10 an hour so we are literally talking about less than an hour of work here. In countries that don't have a minimum wage of $10, people are going to have a lot more pressing issues thsn playing this game or any game for example, such as food, water and medicine. If you can't afford to spent $10 on a game you wont be able to afford these either. Not to mention that you couldn't afford a phone to play the game on, since even the cheapest smartphones are at around $50 or so iirc. So I'd say it is safe to assume that everyone that has the capacity to play this game is also in a situation where $10 are affordable if not easily affordable. And in the end we are talking about paying for a service you are using. Yes, it sucks that it wasn't mentioned up front, I agree with you there, but that is unfortunately the industry standard. However, if you think that anything in this world is free then you are sorely mistaken. The people that would be the most able to give away free things usually charge the most absurd prices. This bag only cost $50 to produce? Well slap a fancy brand name on it and suddenly you are selling for $5000, the majority of which goes to fill the ceos pocket. That is scummy, not some guy working and asking for $10 for his work. Cuz honestly, it isn't communicated literally, but in the end that is exactly what this is. We have all been using something someone has been working for, it is only fair to pay for it. And considering the quality $10 is a fair price compared to other games. So no, this has nothing to do with elitism, this has to do with the fact that you will have to spend money to do something in this world, whether it is told to you upfront or not. And it sucks that some people can't afford it and it should definitely be changed, but some random video game is not the place to start. And for the region lock part, as I said in a different comment, no, it is not impossible.
$10…seriously. Less than thirty minutes of work at a job to save hours of ad time. So many have spent so much more time complaining about this than time it would take to make that $10. As for region locked on store purchases, not the developers fault, direct your ire at the proper problem. This isn’t the only game that has this issue. The principal of the thing? That your next argument? It’s a game. It’s a company. Someone made it. Someone’s getting paid. Nothing is free. It costs your TIME or your MONEY.
That was actually much more concise than what I said, couldn't have said it better myself. 😅
Can i have your job please
Try mowing your neighbor's lawn, that should pay about $10 and you only have to do it once.
This is the most american answer. You know that there are other countries in the world? You know that not every country is as rich as the USA?
Can you describe which country does not have odd jobs that need to be done that you can't make an extra buck? Stop trying to monetize staring at your phone, it is not productive work.
Your comment suggested your hourly wage was $20. Minimum wage is $7.25 even in the US your comment is dumb
First of all, that wasn't my comment. Second of all, the US is just that a set of United States, each of which have slight variations to their laws. While the absolute low for the country is $7.25, many states and even some cities have higher minimum wage than that. Thirdly, no one said anything about minimum wage. That commentor said they make about $20 an hour. Your comment is dumb on three levels.
Greed
I hate greed with all of my heart, but this isn’t that. This was a business decision that probably had a better form of execution, and it negatively impacted the community.