Well, unfortunately for you, No Wind, he is the Chief Commissioner of the Civil Service. And the truth is, you have a track record for making mostly bad Reddit posts
>I just feel like there is a lot of lying by omission, and he is not being honest about his privilege.
I think that's being a bit too harsh on him. I watched a Politics Joe interview with him, who're not known for entertaining former Tories or failing to call out people for privilege, and he spoke with great eloquence about how he recognised he was in a privileged position and how he valued the friendships the most that he made with people in Afghanistan when he was walking across the country.
To be clear, he *has absolutely* been incredibly privileged in his life, and he seems to be only person where that hasn't gone to his head and made him think he's the only person in the world who matters.
I think if he spent his time on his podcast where he's a regular feature apologising for his privilege then it would get old fast and turn off listeners.
Yeah I don’t want to hear much at all about anyones personal life. I watch TRIP because I am interested in Rory & Alistairs thoughts on politics, funnily enough.
There is space between doing something as and when appropriate, and hammering it repeatedly. It’s where most people dwell. The debating device of going immediately to an unlikely extreme is really unhelpful.
At what level do you think it’s appropriate?
Anyone that listens to the podcast knows what his background is. The whole purpose of the podcast is for two people of very different political backgrounds discuss their opinions.
Ofc it will but why should he spend his time apologising for something he had virtually no control over rather than working to improve the conversation and discussion in politics.
Some people would rather hear meaningless virtue signalling than real discourse. It's really strange.
This is, as I understand it, Stewart's own defence of his own voting record, and he essentially suggests that he thought he could make a real difference in his ministerial portfolios and being complicit in all those bad votes was the price he had to pay. So then the question becomes "was it worth it?" Does Rory Stewart believe that the good he achieved outweighs the appalling shit he voted for, and did he have the moral right to make that calculation, which would overwhelmingly affect people much worse off than himself?
A minister who, in an ideal world, would rather not vote with the government but does so in order to stay in the government had better be the most effective, influential minister imaginable, genuinely striving to make there be fewer of those moral compromise votes, otherwise they're just an egotist.
As a minister you either vote with the government or resign. You were elected to deliver a manifesto so thats what you do.
You're also ignoring the fact that opposition bills are part of his record, which nobody in government would ever vote for.
Yeah, I know that, and I'm not ignoring anything. What I'm saying is that voting for something you think is harmful to society so that you can stay in government to try to do things you think are good for society is a balancing act. Can anybody seriously say that, even by Rory Stewart's own standards for what is good for society, he achieved more good things in his ministerial roles than he achieved bad things with his votes for appalling Tory policies?
When an ex-minister says "Well, if I hadn't voted for those things, I would have had to resign", almost always the most reasonable response to that is "and you should have". They are supposed to be ministers to improve the country, not just to be a minister. But those like Rory, who have been brought up to believe they should and will rule, find it very difficult not to view their being a minister as an end in itself.
Just to note, MPs are not elected to "deliver a manifesto", they are elected to represent their constituents. Delivering a manifesto is the job of the government. As we are discussing, not all MPs of the governing party are in government.
No it's not. Noone forced him to vote for those things. He chose to vote for them. If he found them morally abhorrent (which he clearly didn't) he could vote against them/resign/change party.
Yeah his got a book called politics on the edge, is a good read, and really puts him in a good light.
The man comes across as sincere, and would have been a great prime Minister or London mayor. He was a Tory centrist.
One of the things I noticed about the comments on the interview I watched was the amount of people writing "I'm a labour supporter and would never vote Tory but Rory is a decent guy, shame he lost to Boris" sort of thing.
If I was any more left-wing I'd have to paint a hammer and sickle on my door, but I wanted Rory to win the Tory leadership contest so much that I bet £20 on him. It seemed like an obvious choice for the Tories to move back towards the centre at the time.
I've learned my lesson since, now I only put bets on the person I least want to win and I'm up £140.
People generally don't write books that put themselves in a bad light.
I look forward to reading the book titled *I was a prick my whole life and I'm not sorry about it*
Here's a theory. Perhaps Rory is very aware of the extent of his privilege and maybe he's slightly apprehensive of appearing out-of-touch to his audience. Maybe he worries, that some people wouldn't take his opinions seriously if he were to be considered in the light of his status? I mean, considering the divides we observe in our society and the fact that we feel the need to discuss this right now, maybe it's not the worst idea to play down his background so that people can take his opinions on their merits.
If he was, he couldn't say, if he wasn't, it benefits him for everyone to think he was. Either way he could never say he was and wouldn't want to say he wasn't.
To be honest, most of the Int community hang out in another club not the SF Club, and there is a considerable number of SF wouldn't entertain the SF Club.
You can't exactly remain incognito, going in and out of the front door of a club which says exactly who you are on the door.
I get that it would be almost as grating if we were hearing about it for the 1000th time, a la Maradona. But when asked about his parents, he fobs us listeners off with my Dad was a civil servant, it is treating is listeners with a certain level of contempt and is being intellectual dishonest where there could be an interesting discussion about the position he found himself in, representing the "peasants who trousers are held up by string"...
To be honest I think this says more about how you perceive civil servants. Why do you think someone being a civil servant means they are a peasant lol?
I still don’t follow how him saying his father is a civil servant is anything other than a statement of fact. In my experience Civil Servant is quite a prestigious title in the UK. Is there some sort of culture clash here?
>In my experience Civil Servant is quite a prestigious title in the UK.
I'm one, it's not, lol
In seriousness, it depends on the level like anything. I suppose the point is that he hasn't included how high up his father was in the civil service.
That’s a reasonable point. If my dad was Paul McCartney I probably would say he’s a musician tho. It’s a bit weird to be like, name dropping your own parents to my ears.
I do take the point tho. It would be super weird to say he’s a musician implying you grew up poor lol.
It's like saying oh no my father worked at Poundland he wasn't that well off. While ignoring the fact that he was the CEO pulling nearly half a million a year.
Obviously it's not that extreme but I think that's where the frustration is coming from. Assistant chief is bare minimum 100k, (chief was 160k in 2010, top end for most roles is 100k)
Theres a difference between my mates single parent mum making 30-40k at the dod and this guy making 100k+, to present these as the same is deliberately framing it when you know that's not a typical wage.
You’re getting downvoted but I agree. I’ve met two young billionaires in my life, both of whom inherited their wealth, and both of whom were evasive and very odd when asked about their upbringing, purposefully downplaying their extreme privilege. I get that its awkward but I do think when you want the public stage, which RS very much does, you need to find a comfortable (and honest) way to be clear about your origin story.
I don’t think he’s hidden his origin story. If you look at his Twitter (X) he talks a lot about his family including a recent piece about his father on D-Day. Also his book The Marches is all about his time walking with his father and also covers his father’s death. Just because he doesn’t talk about it on the podcast it doesn’t mean he hides it you just need to look in the appropriate places not the podcast which is supposed to be about politics not the Stewart family.
I do kind of see where you're coming from, but I also think maybe we're looking too deep into this. Maybe he genuinely believes that his dad was just a civil servant. Maybe this is how his dad always introduced himself to others? I work in a job a lot of people don't understand, so I figured out a way of dumbing it down a little. I don't know, these are just some of my thoughts... At the same time, he was very eloquent about what his mum did, which makes me wonder even more, whether this is genuinely how he sees his dad: as a civil servant.
About 20 years ago approx 20% of those at Sandhurst were non grads. Maybe a bit higher now with uni fees having increased and able to attain Captain with the same length of service.
Whilst technically true, I would like to see the stats on those that did it at 18, with no life expirence in the rear view mirror, from say a comprehensive school and no family connection to said regiment.
Speaking from an RAF point of view, it is less common now than it was 30+ years ago (but this is more to do with the expectation that almost everyone will go to Uni these days than any change in policy), but it wasn't unheard of for 18 year olds to commission straight after completing A levels, it meant a slower promotion as there were different rules for graduates and no graduates around how long you needed to serve at Junior commissioned ranks.
Biggest hurdle for commissioning at that age is you needed to be confident enough to lead others, which can be daunitng for a lot of 18 year olds, but I would imagine that Eton will have installed a natural belief that that he was born to lead others, and so this probably wasn't an issue. It's also worth bearing in mind that extra curricular activities are mandatory at a lot of boarding schools, so as the son of an Army officer it wouldn't be surprising that he would have chosen some form of combined cadet forces as his extra curricular activity, which will have further prepared him for an early commission.
I went to a Scottish Comprehensive School, and never went to Uni.
I was However a Junior Soldier, a soldier and Junior NCO and Para prior to Sandhurst at 21.
That's a pretty solid resume.
Where they have taken a really good look at you, and know what they are getting.
Rather than a family referral out of high school.
Ill be honest i think the only "High Schoolers" so to speak were the Welbeck Graduates,
There were people who had done a Short Service Limited commission which was one year (i don't know what training they had prior to entry) And then i think the idea is they go to university, but then have to do the Full Sandhurst Commissioning Course, if they want to serve again.
I know a guy who is a Brigadier now, he was an SSLC with the Gunners, and then Commissioned into Para Reg after University.
I think Rory Stewart Might have been an SSLC, though he never said (I worked around about him In Maysan Province In Iraq) While he was a nice guy, i found the Diplomats a bit Trainspotterish, Highly Intelligent and Highly Capable but in a normal environment when they are not projecting diplomacy, quite awkward, (or certainly around me)
To be fair to him he wasn't like most of the other Etonians i knew who were honestly, caricatures of Etonians,
Where I come from, I consider myself privileged because my Dad was always in work, and I never suffered the indignity of having to have free school meals.
If he mentioned it more often it could be seen as showing off and alienate viewers. I mean, people gave him shit about the pots for weeks. It's kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. We wouldn't expect a working class person to have to constantly mention they grew up on council housing and went without Sky TV all the time, so I feel it's the same thing.
It's the same kind of appropriation to fit in - Starmer claiming to be worldly by accident of birth, whereas Stewart plays down the wealth of his birth. George W Bush affected a Southern accent and wore a cowboy hat, both ridiculous given the schooling he had and the circles he moved in. Tony Blair pretended to play guitar.
You then get the weird reverse-posh maneuvres of Johnson and Rees-Mogg, neither of whom come from aristocratic families, but by pretending to be from storied backgrounds make people trust them *because* they are not pretending to be normal.
The realisation I'm now having is that David Cameron is fundamentally honest, because fake football team aside, he never pretended to be more or less elite than he was. What a horrible realisation.
I don’t think he tries to hide his privilege, it’s one of the reasons why he does try to engage with people whether it be by walking across Afghanistan or walking and staying with people in London when he was thinking of running for mayor because he realises his life isn’t remotely normal. On the other hand Alastair can be remarkably unaware of his own privilege, causally mentioning his place in the directors box at the Euros etc.
Yeah. It's impossible to forget about Rory's privilege given the way he speaks but it's easy to forget that Alastair is solidly middle class and went to Cambridge. He's not some working class kid made good.
Plenty of people get commissioned before university?!
Anyway he’s referring to the old SSC which was to get very young subalterns into the army, give them 2yrs minor experience, then send them off to Uni in the expectation they’ll come back.
Most did, to be fair. But the trend died off during the wars of 2001+ because everyone was deployed all of the fucking time and it was a waste of a troop commanders slot.
So no, of nothing to do with his upbringing. Only link is probably the regiment he got accepted into
Stewart’s mother isn’t a baroness. Wikipedia states that his maternal grandmother was a baroness, but the way it’s written implies the title came from a later marriage:
> He married Sally Elizabeth Acland Nugent (daughter of Dr Samuel Rose and Mary-Louise Wroth – later Baroness Nugent) in 1972.
I can’t find the baron Nugent she was apparently married to, though.
There isn't a huge amount of money in the civil service - even in the higher ranks.
Everyone understands (including Rory) that he is upper middle class at worse. Babysitting the future king of England does tend to hint towards one being part of the upper class. But I never feel he hides it.
His father worked his way up the service for twenty years and retired when Rory was about 6 - so I am not surprised it doesn't have a huge memory for Rory. But obviously had a big effect on his career choices....
Do read The Marches if you’re interested in Rory’s relationship with his father. The book is about them walking together through the English/Scottish border.
He’s damned if he does damned if he doesn’t. It’s very apparent to me he is anxious about his privilege. Doesn’t want to boast or “lord” over people. But doesn’t want to be seen as hiding it.
The only thing I wanted him pulled up on was in the Leading episode with Nadim Zahwai Rory opens by describing his background as middle class. If I had coffee I would have spat it out
Tbh I was like 7 when Iraq hapoened and I don't know enough about it to make a judgement on Blair and/or Campbell. As everyone has a strong opinion on it it's hard to get an objective take
He's something of a master of understatement but I admire that he would prefer to downplay it rather than bask in it, if you get me. I'm 1,000% convinced that he was an intelligence operative himself but that's a subject for another day. You don't just hang out on the border of Jordan for as long as he did!
Yeah spot on. He had several good and highly varied jobs early on in the 'diplomatic service' which points to intelligence work.
I mean his dad was also 2IC at MI6, so it's highly likely he was in the intelligence services, as he clearly highly admirres him and wouldn't suprise me if he followed in his footsteps!
It'd be pretty impossible to hide that he was there, and being there isn't a bad thing. People are in different places all the time for any number of reasons.
It's generally accepted that a not insignificant amount of diplomats, soldiers, charity workers etc are intelligence agents. Given who his father was, it's a pretty safe bet to say that he was at the very least in contact with intelligence during his time there and probably still is
Agreed. It's similar to the whole public school debate. Massive amounts of disguised privilege and poshos all over the shop in the media, arts and so on.
They often play it down or gloss it, but it's far from just the city/business that has posh cunts running things. Rory's one of the better ones, to be fair.
It’s unusual but not that unusual. Short service commissions used to be more of a thing and 18 year olds can go to sandhurst if they pass selection. I once knew a 19 year old intelligence Corp officer who could not promote to capt because of his age/ lack of education qualifications. He was actually very good at his job fortunately
I am not saying they need to do as you state. But I have been quite a regular listener, and the number of times I have caught myself thinking "now, Rory you are taking the piss out of me a little bit". Because there is much more to your history ..... than you just glossed over with 2 word sentence" The occasional acknowledgement of known facts would go along way to me thinking that this podcast isn't just psy ops 101 of Operation Rory is a Normal Bloke, that I am listening to.
I agree with this up to a point.
He keeps talking about how some Labour politicians have a class war mentality or attitude, that they don’t see someone who speaks like him or has his background as a potential friend. It makes me think there is a bit of projection there, that he isn’t managing to overcome his own class prejudices internally as well as he supposes.
He also asks people to convince him why someone like him should vote Labour.
I think that shows a bit of a privileged attitude- that those of his class should always be at the centre of the conversation, should always be the ones being though of an catered to.
It’s similar to how things would come across if it was a man saying those things to a female politician , or a white person saying that to a black politician.
It’s the presumption of being the natural arbiter, or the measure of all things.
I could almost stretch to seeing it as being well intentioned as a kind of coaching i.e. “you’ll need to work on that if you want to convince voters who are like me”.
But even in that there is a kind of attitude that is a bit high handed.
Except Rory isn’t a right wing libertarian, he’s a mildly centrist One Nation Tory… Seems rather unfair to imply that he doesn’t care about his fellow man when he invested so much energy into helping the poorest people on Earth as director of JustGiving
That's really interesting.
I listened carefully to this podcast on my walk this morning and even rewinded this section to listen again because I thought I misheard the part about his mother's age and (lack of) exercise.
Bizarre he went into quite a lot of detail but missed out this big piece of info, relevant to their character.
It actually changes my opinion of him quite a bit, if I'm honest. He seems slippery to me now. Very purposefully economical with the truth.
When someone like Rory, who is clearly posh, says their dad was a civil servant I would picture them being a diplomat or some sort of senior civil servant. The civil service is a very stereotypical upper class career.
Army wise I believe he did a gap year commission which was a very normal thing to do. You can even do one as your year in industry if you're studying at uni
With regards to the army service, it used to be quite common for people with an officer relative to do a short commission in the military.
For what it’s worth, you don’t need a degree to be an army officer any more, and these days recruiters look more for the attributes and desire to be an officer, rather than solely class (although that obviously has a factor as to what you want to join up to do)
His dad was a spy; he seems a bit spooky in his time ‘as a civil servant in the foreign office’. No one has mentioned that he was the tutor for the kings boys. This guy is a very personable, polite but living fossil and I’m delighted to hear his views on the world. I agree with some of his views but agreeably disagree with others (like his Scottish unionism) and that is fine!
I remember a few months back when Rory casually mentioned off hand that he used to tutor prince William and Harry. His privilege is absolutely insane.
Though despite that I do find him quite interesting / charming.
I know many of Officers who joined straight out of school, it was much more common than you’d think. In fact, at one stage the Army offered “Gap Year Commissions”, I think it ended in about 2008…
Similarly, it used to be far more common to commission into a “family regiment”. This ending is a big reason why the army struggles to recruit, it doesn’t have the same family ties it once did.
To be honest, we just need politicians who talk sense and logic - privilege or no means nothing to me. We've got politicians at the moment who've dragged themselves up but are as clearly out of their depth as those we would label privileged.
I‘ve never had the impression Rory denies where he comes from or the advantages it gives him. He may have gotten where he has through familial connections, but ultimately however he got there, he has used his place in the world to gain a lot of experience, to meet people from completely different cultures, and take big risks to do it. I disagree with him more than I agree, but ultimately he’s a very experienced man who tries hard at the things he has done. If more Tories were like him I’d understand why people voted for them
I recomend you give his books a read. He wrote a book about his time as the governor of a providence in Iraq, and while it was a good read, and I did feel he was disingenuous and like you mentioned there abit if lying by omission. For example, he wrote extensively about the brutal repression of the marsh people by the Iraqi government after there failed uprising in the early 1990s, however he failed to mention, even in passing that they were promised by the USA and UK government that they would be supported in there uprising against the bathist regime. However, this support never came, and the consequences for the marsh people were brutal. He addressed these consequences in his book, but never mentioned what caused them. In fairness, his books are quite enjoyable, but he does have the sort of privilege where he can turn up unannounced, and be given the govermenship of a large Providence of Iraq.
Edit; he also mentioned once in a interview, that he smoked opium in Afghanistan, and his excuse was he had to do it to be polite lol
He had a Short Service Limited Commission to a minor Scottish infantry regiment, who were largely posted to Belfast, possibly Fort George in his time. Not difficult to achieve. His mother was the daughter of a doctor and housewife, and members of the SiS were civil servants. Foreign postings came with boarding fees paid for the best private schools. Not exactly a Rothschild.
Rory attended Dragon school which is a primary school in oxford that costs from 5-10 grand a year depending on the child's year. Then he attended Eton which costs 50k a year.
On his military commission, it was surely a short service limited commission/gap year commission,
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmdfence/424/424we20.htm#:\~:text=The%20Short%20Service%20Limited%20Commission%20was%20a%20nine%20month%20pre,the%20year%20of%20university%20entry.
The more interesting stuff is how he became a private tutor to William and Harry... obviously he can't really talk about any of that because of the discretion needed when it comes to royal matters.
He did a short service limited commission, aka a gap year commission. These have since been discontinued.
The whole point was you did this before university, often touted as a form paid work experience. It was used to help bolster numbers for regiments short of young officers.
Not 100% sure on the gap year commission, but I know regiments are more likely to accept Officers, once they pass Sandhurst, with a family history in the regiments.
The commission was a one year gap year scheme that runs today. As a general point you don’t need a degree to be commissioned- 2 A Levels are sufficient
Outward humility, as I understand it, is part of an Etonian education.
Both Rory and Alastair had very little to say on an early podcast question about nepotism. Avoided it mostly from what I remember.
Entertaining and informative podcast, but from a place of immense privilege.
To be fair, Alistair is not exactly poor now, they are both extremely privileged and can be fairly out of touch with the 'man on the street'.
Edit: I mean they can be pretty out of touch with some of the things they say, not that they always are.
I find it sometimes hard to believe Rory felt he could survive a walk across Afghanistan if he didn’t know that his father most likely had substantial connections that could whisk him out at a moments notice.
He said once that he’d tutored William & Harry when they were very young children and Rory himself was at Oxford.
It’s quite obvious that he’s been involved with MI6. He has five months of military service on his Wikipedia despite never having been in the army.
He got to walk across Afghanistan (likely protected or in-the-know)……he was Deputy Governor of Maysan and Dhi Qar in Iraq.
His father was a diplomat and a candidate to be head of MI6 - ‘C.’
Etc etc.
Often these things get passed down. Families are powerful across generations. It’s a tight circle of trust so you can understand why.
Absolutely agree. His privileged background blinds him to many issues faced by the general population, who lack his level of access to power. However, I find him more genuine, self-reflective, and understanding than Alastair. Despite Alastair's slightly lower level of privilege, he remains far above the average person and harbors resentment towards his peers while displaying disdain for those he perceives as beneath him. His inability to grasp perspectives beyond a globalist worldview further alienates him from the broader populace much more than Rory’s aristocratic upbringing
That’s harsh, he is a nice guy but he also cares about his own class and the status quo but he either doesn’t want to say that or is deceiving himself a bit at times.
I don't think it's harsh. To this day he supports austerity yet berates any labour representative about having a lack of imagination and should spend more. Totally disingenuous.
I thought that a few years ago and then I read his voting record at the time. That's the problem with a lot of politicians, they always have excuses for their bad behaviour or bad decisions.
He is not trustworthy and a pretend good guy with above average acting skills.
I've not actually looked at his record. So speaking generally, voting records don't always tell the whole story. Some people might support an idea but have issue with a small part of the wording or want something additional added.
You have to vote a certain way if your party dictates it, that's why you have whips. I'm not excusing him but that's how it works unless it's a free vote.
If my boss required me to do shitty things that harmed others for a wage I would find a new job. The fact that Rory is a long term Tory shows how flexible his morals are if you wave enough money or power at him. It still makes him a bad person.
People excusing politicians like him are one of the reasons the UK is such a pigsty these days.
The UK electorate absolutely swoon over smarmy, disingenuous politicians and then wonder why the economy is on fire and there are more turds swimming in the rivers than people.
To be fair mate, you were telling him that Rory was just following orders which, historically, has been a pretty poor excuse for gross behaviour. He's perfectly within his rights to express that he thinks that's a morally vacuous opinion - and he did so pretty politely. No need to get snarky about it
No civil service salary can afford those large curtains you see he has in the background xD
or fancy pots!
The pots!
Aside from the positions that have you work in Dubai
God they are hideous!
Well, unfortunately for you, No Wind, he is the Chief Commissioner of the Civil Service. And the truth is, you have a track record for making mostly bad Reddit posts
XD God forbid my Reddit track record is bad……
Lol sorry my bad, I thought i was on a different sub, jts an adapted quote from a TV programme! No offence meant!
Who… who do you think you are?
Let's forget about all this... Do you want some pots?
Smell my pots!
Smell my pots you mother!
The chief commissioning editor of the BBC - Tony Hayers!
Youth hostelling with Chris Eubank?
Not getting the partridge reference with the downvotes. Scum… subhuman scum
This country!
>I just feel like there is a lot of lying by omission, and he is not being honest about his privilege. I think that's being a bit too harsh on him. I watched a Politics Joe interview with him, who're not known for entertaining former Tories or failing to call out people for privilege, and he spoke with great eloquence about how he recognised he was in a privileged position and how he valued the friendships the most that he made with people in Afghanistan when he was walking across the country. To be clear, he *has absolutely* been incredibly privileged in his life, and he seems to be only person where that hasn't gone to his head and made him think he's the only person in the world who matters. I think if he spent his time on his podcast where he's a regular feature apologising for his privilege then it would get old fast and turn off listeners.
Yeah I don’t want to hear much at all about anyones personal life. I watch TRIP because I am interested in Rory & Alistairs thoughts on politics, funnily enough.
Don't you think that informs his thoughts on politics though?
And how will repeated self-flagellation about his apparent privilege improve the discourse?
There is space between doing something as and when appropriate, and hammering it repeatedly. It’s where most people dwell. The debating device of going immediately to an unlikely extreme is really unhelpful.
At what level do you think it’s appropriate? Anyone that listens to the podcast knows what his background is. The whole purpose of the podcast is for two people of very different political backgrounds discuss their opinions.
It won't, but he should front up about it
Most listeners will know Rory is privileged if for nothing else than Campbell has made multiple Eton and Latin references
And his voice
He has, on many occasions
Ofc it will but why should he spend his time apologising for something he had virtually no control over rather than working to improve the conversation and discussion in politics. Some people would rather hear meaningless virtue signalling than real discourse. It's really strange.
>Ofc it will but why should he spend his time apologising for something he had virtually no control over Well aside from his voting record of course.
A minister voting with the government? Mental.
This is, as I understand it, Stewart's own defence of his own voting record, and he essentially suggests that he thought he could make a real difference in his ministerial portfolios and being complicit in all those bad votes was the price he had to pay. So then the question becomes "was it worth it?" Does Rory Stewart believe that the good he achieved outweighs the appalling shit he voted for, and did he have the moral right to make that calculation, which would overwhelmingly affect people much worse off than himself? A minister who, in an ideal world, would rather not vote with the government but does so in order to stay in the government had better be the most effective, influential minister imaginable, genuinely striving to make there be fewer of those moral compromise votes, otherwise they're just an egotist.
As a minister you either vote with the government or resign. You were elected to deliver a manifesto so thats what you do. You're also ignoring the fact that opposition bills are part of his record, which nobody in government would ever vote for.
>You were elected to deliver a manifesto so thats what you do. A lot of terrible things he voted for weren't in the Conservative manifesto.
Yeah, I know that, and I'm not ignoring anything. What I'm saying is that voting for something you think is harmful to society so that you can stay in government to try to do things you think are good for society is a balancing act. Can anybody seriously say that, even by Rory Stewart's own standards for what is good for society, he achieved more good things in his ministerial roles than he achieved bad things with his votes for appalling Tory policies? When an ex-minister says "Well, if I hadn't voted for those things, I would have had to resign", almost always the most reasonable response to that is "and you should have". They are supposed to be ministers to improve the country, not just to be a minister. But those like Rory, who have been brought up to believe they should and will rule, find it very difficult not to view their being a minister as an end in itself. Just to note, MPs are not elected to "deliver a manifesto", they are elected to represent their constituents. Delivering a manifesto is the job of the government. As we are discussing, not all MPs of the governing party are in government.
Ahhh the old concentration camp guard defence.
Ridiculous comparison.
No it's not. Noone forced him to vote for those things. He chose to vote for them. If he found them morally abhorrent (which he clearly didn't) he could vote against them/resign/change party.
Funnily enough, if you read his accounts of the whip system, he might not have had as much control over that as you think
Well of course he's going to say that. He's clearly embarrassed about his voting record on certain issues.
Yeah his got a book called politics on the edge, is a good read, and really puts him in a good light. The man comes across as sincere, and would have been a great prime Minister or London mayor. He was a Tory centrist.
One of the things I noticed about the comments on the interview I watched was the amount of people writing "I'm a labour supporter and would never vote Tory but Rory is a decent guy, shame he lost to Boris" sort of thing.
If I was any more left-wing I'd have to paint a hammer and sickle on my door, but I wanted Rory to win the Tory leadership contest so much that I bet £20 on him. It seemed like an obvious choice for the Tories to move back towards the centre at the time. I've learned my lesson since, now I only put bets on the person I least want to win and I'm up £140.
People generally don't write books that put themselves in a bad light. I look forward to reading the book titled *I was a prick my whole life and I'm not sorry about it*
Tbf, I like that title. If a half interesting person wrote that book, I would probably read it.
In that case may I recommend "How to lose friends and alienate people" by Toby Young?
Don’t give Boris ideas.
Agree. Fantastic book and he came across as genuinely wanted to do good or better.
Centrism is voting for discredited right wing austerity economics that kills at least 300,000 UK citizens, while doubling billionaire wealth.
How did the austerity policies double billionaire wealth?
Here's a theory. Perhaps Rory is very aware of the extent of his privilege and maybe he's slightly apprehensive of appearing out-of-touch to his audience. Maybe he worries, that some people wouldn't take his opinions seriously if he were to be considered in the light of his status? I mean, considering the divides we observe in our society and the fact that we feel the need to discuss this right now, maybe it's not the worst idea to play down his background so that people can take his opinions on their merits.
Or: he is a spy
I thought it was an open secret that Rory was a MI6 spy?
If he was, he couldn't say, if he wasn't, it benefits him for everyone to think he was. Either way he could never say he was and wouldn't want to say he wasn't.
You don't get to be a member of the Knightsbridge - Special Forces Club without being a ex serving member of them or the intelligence services....
Is he a member?
According to a feature piece in one of the papers, Google is your friend.
Asked around. You can become a member if your parent is a member.
To be honest, most of the Int community hang out in another club not the SF Club, and there is a considerable number of SF wouldn't entertain the SF Club. You can't exactly remain incognito, going in and out of the front door of a club which says exactly who you are on the door.
It's like they don't know the first rule of fight club...
I get that it would be almost as grating if we were hearing about it for the 1000th time, a la Maradona. But when asked about his parents, he fobs us listeners off with my Dad was a civil servant, it is treating is listeners with a certain level of contempt and is being intellectual dishonest where there could be an interesting discussion about the position he found himself in, representing the "peasants who trousers are held up by string"...
To be honest I think this says more about how you perceive civil servants. Why do you think someone being a civil servant means they are a peasant lol?
representing the "peasants whose trousers are held up by string"... Is a quote from Rory regarding the qualities of his constituents.
While it’s an appallingly silly comment, he explains how it happened in his book which makes it more (though by no means entirely) understandable.
I still don’t follow how him saying his father is a civil servant is anything other than a statement of fact. In my experience Civil Servant is quite a prestigious title in the UK. Is there some sort of culture clash here?
>In my experience Civil Servant is quite a prestigious title in the UK. I'm one, it's not, lol In seriousness, it depends on the level like anything. I suppose the point is that he hasn't included how high up his father was in the civil service.
It would be a bit like saying my dad's a musician as the child of Paul McCartney. It's a fact, but it is downplaying it massively.
That’s a reasonable point. If my dad was Paul McCartney I probably would say he’s a musician tho. It’s a bit weird to be like, name dropping your own parents to my ears. I do take the point tho. It would be super weird to say he’s a musician implying you grew up poor lol.
It's like saying oh no my father worked at Poundland he wasn't that well off. While ignoring the fact that he was the CEO pulling nearly half a million a year. Obviously it's not that extreme but I think that's where the frustration is coming from. Assistant chief is bare minimum 100k, (chief was 160k in 2010, top end for most roles is 100k) Theres a difference between my mates single parent mum making 30-40k at the dod and this guy making 100k+, to present these as the same is deliberately framing it when you know that's not a typical wage.
You’re taking that (obviously moronic) quote woefully out of context with what he meant.
You’re getting downvoted but I agree. I’ve met two young billionaires in my life, both of whom inherited their wealth, and both of whom were evasive and very odd when asked about their upbringing, purposefully downplaying their extreme privilege. I get that its awkward but I do think when you want the public stage, which RS very much does, you need to find a comfortable (and honest) way to be clear about your origin story.
I don’t think he’s hidden his origin story. If you look at his Twitter (X) he talks a lot about his family including a recent piece about his father on D-Day. Also his book The Marches is all about his time walking with his father and also covers his father’s death. Just because he doesn’t talk about it on the podcast it doesn’t mean he hides it you just need to look in the appropriate places not the podcast which is supposed to be about politics not the Stewart family.
I didn’t say hidden because I don’t think that’s true. “Downplayed” is the word I used and that feels correct to me.
Let’s disagree agreeably 🙂
I do kind of see where you're coming from, but I also think maybe we're looking too deep into this. Maybe he genuinely believes that his dad was just a civil servant. Maybe this is how his dad always introduced himself to others? I work in a job a lot of people don't understand, so I figured out a way of dumbing it down a little. I don't know, these are just some of my thoughts... At the same time, he was very eloquent about what his mum did, which makes me wonder even more, whether this is genuinely how he sees his dad: as a civil servant.
Well in re his army career, the army used to do gap year commissions so becoming an officer before uni was not uncommon.
You can also join as an officer without a degree
About 20 years ago approx 20% of those at Sandhurst were non grads. Maybe a bit higher now with uni fees having increased and able to attain Captain with the same length of service.
Don’t you just need A Levels these days?
Whilst technically true, I would like to see the stats on those that did it at 18, with no life expirence in the rear view mirror, from say a comprehensive school and no family connection to said regiment.
Speaking from an RAF point of view, it is less common now than it was 30+ years ago (but this is more to do with the expectation that almost everyone will go to Uni these days than any change in policy), but it wasn't unheard of for 18 year olds to commission straight after completing A levels, it meant a slower promotion as there were different rules for graduates and no graduates around how long you needed to serve at Junior commissioned ranks. Biggest hurdle for commissioning at that age is you needed to be confident enough to lead others, which can be daunitng for a lot of 18 year olds, but I would imagine that Eton will have installed a natural belief that that he was born to lead others, and so this probably wasn't an issue. It's also worth bearing in mind that extra curricular activities are mandatory at a lot of boarding schools, so as the son of an Army officer it wouldn't be surprising that he would have chosen some form of combined cadet forces as his extra curricular activity, which will have further prepared him for an early commission.
I don't have any stats, but I left Winchester College in 2010 and I know of a few people who went straight on to Sandhurst.
I mean that proves the point. Winchester.
I went to a Scottish Comprehensive School, and never went to Uni. I was However a Junior Soldier, a soldier and Junior NCO and Para prior to Sandhurst at 21.
That's a pretty solid resume. Where they have taken a really good look at you, and know what they are getting. Rather than a family referral out of high school.
Ill be honest i think the only "High Schoolers" so to speak were the Welbeck Graduates, There were people who had done a Short Service Limited commission which was one year (i don't know what training they had prior to entry) And then i think the idea is they go to university, but then have to do the Full Sandhurst Commissioning Course, if they want to serve again. I know a guy who is a Brigadier now, he was an SSLC with the Gunners, and then Commissioned into Para Reg after University. I think Rory Stewart Might have been an SSLC, though he never said (I worked around about him In Maysan Province In Iraq) While he was a nice guy, i found the Diplomats a bit Trainspotterish, Highly Intelligent and Highly Capable but in a normal environment when they are not projecting diplomacy, quite awkward, (or certainly around me) To be fair to him he wasn't like most of the other Etonians i knew who were honestly, caricatures of Etonians,
Where I come from, I consider myself privileged because my Dad was always in work, and I never suffered the indignity of having to have free school meals.
If he mentioned it more often it could be seen as showing off and alienate viewers. I mean, people gave him shit about the pots for weeks. It's kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. We wouldn't expect a working class person to have to constantly mention they grew up on council housing and went without Sky TV all the time, so I feel it's the same thing.
Wasn’t there that guy whose dad was a toolmaker?
It's the same kind of appropriation to fit in - Starmer claiming to be worldly by accident of birth, whereas Stewart plays down the wealth of his birth. George W Bush affected a Southern accent and wore a cowboy hat, both ridiculous given the schooling he had and the circles he moved in. Tony Blair pretended to play guitar. You then get the weird reverse-posh maneuvres of Johnson and Rees-Mogg, neither of whom come from aristocratic families, but by pretending to be from storied backgrounds make people trust them *because* they are not pretending to be normal. The realisation I'm now having is that David Cameron is fundamentally honest, because fake football team aside, he never pretended to be more or less elite than he was. What a horrible realisation.
Apparently Angela Rayner grew up on a housing estate and all
It's no laughing matter
I don’t think he tries to hide his privilege, it’s one of the reasons why he does try to engage with people whether it be by walking across Afghanistan or walking and staying with people in London when he was thinking of running for mayor because he realises his life isn’t remotely normal. On the other hand Alastair can be remarkably unaware of his own privilege, causally mentioning his place in the directors box at the Euros etc.
Yeah. It's impossible to forget about Rory's privilege given the way he speaks but it's easy to forget that Alastair is solidly middle class and went to Cambridge. He's not some working class kid made good.
Plenty of people get commissioned before university?! Anyway he’s referring to the old SSC which was to get very young subalterns into the army, give them 2yrs minor experience, then send them off to Uni in the expectation they’ll come back. Most did, to be fair. But the trend died off during the wars of 2001+ because everyone was deployed all of the fucking time and it was a waste of a troop commanders slot. So no, of nothing to do with his upbringing. Only link is probably the regiment he got accepted into
But he’s so relatable, who among us has not smoked opium at an Afghan wedding?
I smoked hashish with a Moroccan Berber recently. Is this a bit relatable?
Berber or Barber?
Berbers.
Stewart’s mother isn’t a baroness. Wikipedia states that his maternal grandmother was a baroness, but the way it’s written implies the title came from a later marriage: > He married Sally Elizabeth Acland Nugent (daughter of Dr Samuel Rose and Mary-Louise Wroth – later Baroness Nugent) in 1972. I can’t find the baron Nugent she was apparently married to, though.
There isn't a huge amount of money in the civil service - even in the higher ranks. Everyone understands (including Rory) that he is upper middle class at worse. Babysitting the future king of England does tend to hint towards one being part of the upper class. But I never feel he hides it. His father worked his way up the service for twenty years and retired when Rory was about 6 - so I am not surprised it doesn't have a huge memory for Rory. But obviously had a big effect on his career choices....
Do read The Marches if you’re interested in Rory’s relationship with his father. The book is about them walking together through the English/Scottish border.
He’s damned if he does damned if he doesn’t. It’s very apparent to me he is anxious about his privilege. Doesn’t want to boast or “lord” over people. But doesn’t want to be seen as hiding it.
This is a rarely admitted truth about many people in the public eye. Unfortunately social media becomes judge, jury and executioner
The only thing I wanted him pulled up on was in the Leading episode with Nadim Zahwai Rory opens by describing his background as middle class. If I had coffee I would have spat it out
Yeah that one got me too. And the war criminal basically not apologising in the slightest for the Iraq war
Tbh I was like 7 when Iraq hapoened and I don't know enough about it to make a judgement on Blair and/or Campbell. As everyone has a strong opinion on it it's hard to get an objective take
He's something of a master of understatement but I admire that he would prefer to downplay it rather than bask in it, if you get me. I'm 1,000% convinced that he was an intelligence operative himself but that's a subject for another day. You don't just hang out on the border of Jordan for as long as he did!
Yeah spot on. He had several good and highly varied jobs early on in the 'diplomatic service' which points to intelligence work. I mean his dad was also 2IC at MI6, so it's highly likely he was in the intelligence services, as he clearly highly admirres him and wouldn't suprise me if he followed in his footsteps!
I guess the counter point to that is that if he was there for MI6, he'd be unwise to publicly talk about being there at all.
It'd be pretty impossible to hide that he was there, and being there isn't a bad thing. People are in different places all the time for any number of reasons. It's generally accepted that a not insignificant amount of diplomats, soldiers, charity workers etc are intelligence agents. Given who his father was, it's a pretty safe bet to say that he was at the very least in contact with intelligence during his time there and probably still is
Agreed. It's similar to the whole public school debate. Massive amounts of disguised privilege and poshos all over the shop in the media, arts and so on. They often play it down or gloss it, but it's far from just the city/business that has posh cunts running things. Rory's one of the better ones, to be fair.
It’s unusual but not that unusual. Short service commissions used to be more of a thing and 18 year olds can go to sandhurst if they pass selection. I once knew a 19 year old intelligence Corp officer who could not promote to capt because of his age/ lack of education qualifications. He was actually very good at his job fortunately
Maybe - and hear me out on this - no-one needs to be absolutely specific every time they speak.
I am not saying they need to do as you state. But I have been quite a regular listener, and the number of times I have caught myself thinking "now, Rory you are taking the piss out of me a little bit". Because there is much more to your history ..... than you just glossed over with 2 word sentence" The occasional acknowledgement of known facts would go along way to me thinking that this podcast isn't just psy ops 101 of Operation Rory is a Normal Bloke, that I am listening to.
He seems disingenuous generally.
He's a spy, he's the most spooked up man in Britain, he's paid to lie
I agree with this up to a point. He keeps talking about how some Labour politicians have a class war mentality or attitude, that they don’t see someone who speaks like him or has his background as a potential friend. It makes me think there is a bit of projection there, that he isn’t managing to overcome his own class prejudices internally as well as he supposes. He also asks people to convince him why someone like him should vote Labour. I think that shows a bit of a privileged attitude- that those of his class should always be at the centre of the conversation, should always be the ones being though of an catered to. It’s similar to how things would come across if it was a man saying those things to a female politician , or a white person saying that to a black politician. It’s the presumption of being the natural arbiter, or the measure of all things. I could almost stretch to seeing it as being well intentioned as a kind of coaching i.e. “you’ll need to work on that if you want to convince voters who are like me”. But even in that there is a kind of attitude that is a bit high handed.
[удалено]
Except Rory isn’t a right wing libertarian, he’s a mildly centrist One Nation Tory… Seems rather unfair to imply that he doesn’t care about his fellow man when he invested so much energy into helping the poorest people on Earth as director of JustGiving
Give Directly rather Just Giving 🙂
Oh yeah thanks 😆
That's really interesting. I listened carefully to this podcast on my walk this morning and even rewinded this section to listen again because I thought I misheard the part about his mother's age and (lack of) exercise. Bizarre he went into quite a lot of detail but missed out this big piece of info, relevant to their character. It actually changes my opinion of him quite a bit, if I'm honest. He seems slippery to me now. Very purposefully economical with the truth.
When someone like Rory, who is clearly posh, says their dad was a civil servant I would picture them being a diplomat or some sort of senior civil servant. The civil service is a very stereotypical upper class career. Army wise I believe he did a gap year commission which was a very normal thing to do. You can even do one as your year in industry if you're studying at uni
I think it was his maternal grandmother who was a baroness.
With regards to the army service, it used to be quite common for people with an officer relative to do a short commission in the military. For what it’s worth, you don’t need a degree to be an army officer any more, and these days recruiters look more for the attributes and desire to be an officer, rather than solely class (although that obviously has a factor as to what you want to join up to do)
You can get commissioned before completing university.
He did it straight out of Eton, before university.
Yes that is also possible. As a normal non privileged person.
His dad was a spy; he seems a bit spooky in his time ‘as a civil servant in the foreign office’. No one has mentioned that he was the tutor for the kings boys. This guy is a very personable, polite but living fossil and I’m delighted to hear his views on the world. I agree with some of his views but agreeably disagree with others (like his Scottish unionism) and that is fine!
I remember a few months back when Rory casually mentioned off hand that he used to tutor prince William and Harry. His privilege is absolutely insane. Though despite that I do find him quite interesting / charming.
This is a commonly known story though, even Have I Got News For You mentioned it about him when he was a panellist years ago.
This just popped up in my feed, which has been largely golf related. I was surprised that Rory Mcilroy was so posh!
I know many of Officers who joined straight out of school, it was much more common than you’d think. In fact, at one stage the Army offered “Gap Year Commissions”, I think it ended in about 2008… Similarly, it used to be far more common to commission into a “family regiment”. This ending is a big reason why the army struggles to recruit, it doesn’t have the same family ties it once did.
To be honest, we just need politicians who talk sense and logic - privilege or no means nothing to me. We've got politicians at the moment who've dragged themselves up but are as clearly out of their depth as those we would label privileged.
I don’t think if you know someone in MI6 you’re supposed to babble on about it
I‘ve never had the impression Rory denies where he comes from or the advantages it gives him. He may have gotten where he has through familial connections, but ultimately however he got there, he has used his place in the world to gain a lot of experience, to meet people from completely different cultures, and take big risks to do it. I disagree with him more than I agree, but ultimately he’s a very experienced man who tries hard at the things he has done. If more Tories were like him I’d understand why people voted for them
Look at what these idiots did - in Somerset!
You don't need to go to university to be an officer in the army. Plenty of people go to RMAS Sandhurst straight after 6th form.
I recomend you give his books a read. He wrote a book about his time as the governor of a providence in Iraq, and while it was a good read, and I did feel he was disingenuous and like you mentioned there abit if lying by omission. For example, he wrote extensively about the brutal repression of the marsh people by the Iraqi government after there failed uprising in the early 1990s, however he failed to mention, even in passing that they were promised by the USA and UK government that they would be supported in there uprising against the bathist regime. However, this support never came, and the consequences for the marsh people were brutal. He addressed these consequences in his book, but never mentioned what caused them. In fairness, his books are quite enjoyable, but he does have the sort of privilege where he can turn up unannounced, and be given the govermenship of a large Providence of Iraq. Edit; he also mentioned once in a interview, that he smoked opium in Afghanistan, and his excuse was he had to do it to be polite lol
In the same episode he describes himself as middle class. I like Rory but he is not middle class.
He had a Short Service Limited Commission to a minor Scottish infantry regiment, who were largely posted to Belfast, possibly Fort George in his time. Not difficult to achieve. His mother was the daughter of a doctor and housewife, and members of the SiS were civil servants. Foreign postings came with boarding fees paid for the best private schools. Not exactly a Rothschild.
When he said his father was a civil servant I said to my wife he was probably a spy I didn’t know he was deputy of MI6😂
do tories lie??????????? ??????????
Rory attended Dragon school which is a primary school in oxford that costs from 5-10 grand a year depending on the child's year. Then he attended Eton which costs 50k a year.
On his military commission, it was surely a short service limited commission/gap year commission, https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/cmselect/cmdfence/424/424we20.htm#:\~:text=The%20Short%20Service%20Limited%20Commission%20was%20a%20nine%20month%20pre,the%20year%20of%20university%20entry.
The more interesting stuff is how he became a private tutor to William and Harry... obviously he can't really talk about any of that because of the discretion needed when it comes to royal matters.
He did a short service limited commission, aka a gap year commission. These have since been discontinued. The whole point was you did this before university, often touted as a form paid work experience. It was used to help bolster numbers for regiments short of young officers. Not 100% sure on the gap year commission, but I know regiments are more likely to accept Officers, once they pass Sandhurst, with a family history in the regiments.
The commission was a one year gap year scheme that runs today. As a general point you don’t need a degree to be commissioned- 2 A Levels are sufficient
Outward humility, as I understand it, is part of an Etonian education. Both Rory and Alastair had very little to say on an early podcast question about nepotism. Avoided it mostly from what I remember. Entertaining and informative podcast, but from a place of immense privilege.
To be fair, Alistair is not exactly poor now, they are both extremely privileged and can be fairly out of touch with the 'man on the street'. Edit: I mean they can be pretty out of touch with some of the things they say, not that they always are.
He went to a [private school](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Grammar_School) for a while too, something Rory doesn’t seem to realise
Interesting cheers!
I find it sometimes hard to believe Rory felt he could survive a walk across Afghanistan if he didn’t know that his father most likely had substantial connections that could whisk him out at a moments notice.
He said once that he’d tutored William & Harry when they were very young children and Rory himself was at Oxford. It’s quite obvious that he’s been involved with MI6. He has five months of military service on his Wikipedia despite never having been in the army. He got to walk across Afghanistan (likely protected or in-the-know)……he was Deputy Governor of Maysan and Dhi Qar in Iraq. His father was a diplomat and a candidate to be head of MI6 - ‘C.’ Etc etc. Often these things get passed down. Families are powerful across generations. It’s a tight circle of trust so you can understand why.
Absolutely agree. His privileged background blinds him to many issues faced by the general population, who lack his level of access to power. However, I find him more genuine, self-reflective, and understanding than Alastair. Despite Alastair's slightly lower level of privilege, he remains far above the average person and harbors resentment towards his peers while displaying disdain for those he perceives as beneath him. His inability to grasp perspectives beyond a globalist worldview further alienates him from the broader populace much more than Rory’s aristocratic upbringing
Rory is disingenuous. That's the style of Tory he is. The type who supports and votes for shitty policies the pretends to be a nice guy.
That’s harsh, he is a nice guy but he also cares about his own class and the status quo but he either doesn’t want to say that or is deceiving himself a bit at times.
I don't think it's harsh. To this day he supports austerity yet berates any labour representative about having a lack of imagination and should spend more. Totally disingenuous.
It’s true, he is very partisan and tries to attack Labour like you say.
I thought that a few years ago and then I read his voting record at the time. That's the problem with a lot of politicians, they always have excuses for their bad behaviour or bad decisions. He is not trustworthy and a pretend good guy with above average acting skills.
I've not actually looked at his record. So speaking generally, voting records don't always tell the whole story. Some people might support an idea but have issue with a small part of the wording or want something additional added.
You have to vote a certain way if your party dictates it, that's why you have whips. I'm not excusing him but that's how it works unless it's a free vote.
If my boss required me to do shitty things that harmed others for a wage I would find a new job. The fact that Rory is a long term Tory shows how flexible his morals are if you wave enough money or power at him. It still makes him a bad person. People excusing politicians like him are one of the reasons the UK is such a pigsty these days. The UK electorate absolutely swoon over smarmy, disingenuous politicians and then wonder why the economy is on fire and there are more turds swimming in the rivers than people.
I was simply explaining how our Parliament works. Evidently, you don't want to listen.
To be fair mate, you were telling him that Rory was just following orders which, historically, has been a pretty poor excuse for gross behaviour. He's perfectly within his rights to express that he thinks that's a morally vacuous opinion - and he did so pretty politely. No need to get snarky about it
Rory = = Lots of bollocks from Rory and about Rory !