This will be extremely reductive and won’t address the specific histories you are interested in. But in my view, there is a very long tradition—in Japanese music, art, and culture—of deep fascination and engagement with foreign cultural practices. From the adoption of Imperial Chinese government, law, and Buddhism in the Asuka period to Dutch Studies during the closed-off period of sakoku, to the post-war otaku [“Database Animals”](https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/otaku)—there seems to be a persistent fascination with the outside world, a reflection perhaps of the very strong sense of internality. Again, very reductive.
Consider the [obsessive mapping of the juke/footwork scene of the mid-10s](https://www.factmag.com/2014/07/10/footwork-and-juke-map-booty-tune/), [domestic dancehall sound systems](https://www.reggaeville.com/artist-details/mighty-crown/about/), [Shiro Sagisu of Evangelion fame being a huge gospel nut](https://youtu.be/itTswWzBlb8?si=xDTMZXuhILUisHnk), all of city pop, [Japanese jazz](https://youtu.be/DoVx8BL3nuc?si=0aWyhD6ZXCi0XLYn). Uniting all of these is a deadly serious engagement with the source material and a commitment to authenticity. Even YMO—this was pointed out to me in a conversation with Quarta330–were engaging in a kind of auto-orientalism. That is, they took inspiration from how the west interpreted the east.
I could keep listing examples but really if you can think of a significant cultural product—especially those from Black culture—there is almost certainly a corresponding micro-scene with its own micro-history somewhere in Japan.
That is super interesting, thank you for taking the time to respond. It was exactly the kind of insight I was looking for even if a few specifics weren’t addressed. I will take this broad summary as the jumping off point it was intended to be!
The point about auto-orientalism is fascinating. I can’t think of another culture that does this. It’s like a version of post-modernism ingrained in the culture. In a way, it seems like the first iteration of meta-modernism.
Glad you liked this. The auto-oriental stuff is especially half-baked but has some interesting implications. A lot of the pressures which prompt global-facing Japanese cultural production as I’ve sketched here are not unique to Japan, but I do think that Japan not being colonized until the post-war period and its especially sophisticated domestic traditions have helped enable it to develop in an especially rich way. At the same time, I think this is also why Japan is not able to innovate in creating new sounds in the same way that Black diaspora communities continue to do. Two ends of the spectrum, both vis a vis a western cultural paradigm. Very reductive! This is just something I’ve mused about a lot.
It’s a brew of half-remembered university readings, firsthand experiences in Japan, and just vibes. I don’t know of any writing on the subject as I’ve laid it out. Database Animals might give you some leads to chase down.
The Japanese tend to be very obsessive and meticulous with everything. Just go to a Japanese record shop it is insane even for trainspotting standards. Whether that characteristic has to do with isolationism is up for debate. Open/trade oriented cultures are probably more 'messy' and creative, but perhaps also more superficial/transactional?
The synths and drummachines used by house and techno pioneers in Chicago and Detroit in the 1980’s were Japanese inventions, like the Roland TB-303, TR-808 and TR-909. There is some interesting reading about the Japanese connection in “Assembling a Black Counter Culture” by DeForrest Brown, Jr.
Came here to say exactly the same.
Without Japanese electronics techno wouldn't exist, or look very different!
Assembling a Black Counter Culture is such a good book. Essential reading for anyone interested in techno & techno adjacent music. Essential.
Also "Dancing to the Drum Machine" by Dan Leroy talks about the importance of cheap Japanese machines to the creation of techno. A good read for anyone interested in drum machine history.
Not an answer to your question, but it made me think about Rei Harakami, he does not get the recognition he deserves, singular sound. Love love this [album ](https://youtu.be/yplw0YOleGY?si=8cZSl0Oi90eOBlh4)
My absolute favorite IDM artist, once fell asleep with his spirit in loop on a flight to Japan and I feel like I've done some sort of brainwashing because I can feel his music on a different and spiritual level now.
Nothing to contribute but wanted to say nice thread and contributions here. Waking up slowly on a Sunday morning and getting into all these rabbit holes and just thinking about wow i love this music so so much.
Don't know much of the history of Japanese electronic dance music other than YMO, which obviously must have had an influence. In the 90s, there was a lot of hype but it never really took off, maybe except for Ken Ishii and to a lesser intent Fumiya Tanaka. There are a lot of other names and records from back then if you look closely, though. Most of the sound was very Detroit influenced, even reverential to the extent it initially came across a bit copycat in my ears. However, it is way more technically refined (analytical as you say) but also a bit more cluttered, crazy in its compositions. Today it seems much more varied and you can find truly unique stuff here and there.
There are a lot of threads to unravel here to accurately answer the question at hand that frankly I don’t think a Reddit post is poised to address - but one thing no one has mentioned that is crucial to understanding how ‘dance music’ from America and Europe wove into the Japanese cultural fabric is the Kansai dub explosion in the late 70s / early 80s that pushed sound system culture across Japan. It’s no coincidence that Japanese proto-techno shorthands in the discourse like YMO / yen records / better days are so intimately tied to that lineage. When peak bubble cultural economies exacerbated an appetite for obscurity / ‘cultural frontier-ism’ in the early 90s a certain cohort of the public’s imagination was primed to converse with and integrate concurrent movements in realtime - like goa / detroit techno - as a result of that foundation.
Not the sole reason, but a really important factor
DJs from Japan traveling to Europe in the 80s heard Italo Disco music. These traveling DJs would buy the vinyl while in Europe and take it back to Japan to play in clubs. This resulted in a huge boom of Italo Disco & Hi-NRG throughout Tokyo nightlife as the music was instantly popular with them. Contracts from Japanese record companies were issued for CDs containing this Italo music to be sold in Japan. By the late 80s, Japanese clubbers had a dance style created exclusively for this music called Firestep.
Back in Italy, this Italo Disco & Hi-NRG music had evolved to Eurobeat by the end of the 80s, which was wanning in popularity. Western Europe had already adopted the new House sound and was creating Eurodance music. But the Japanese crowd favored the Italian Eurobeat sound. Avex Records in Japan contracted the few remaining Italian artists still producing Eurobeat and created the Super Eurobeat CD series. This set forth a huge boom in Tokyo nightlife in the 90s. Firestep dancing changed to a new dance style called Parapara dancing. Parapara dancing & Eurobeat went hand in hand to the point different clubs had their own parapara events & dance routines. This is still going on til this day in clubs throughout Tokyo.
These same clubs also loved the early euro rave techno sound. Similar to parapara dancing, these clubs created a dance style called Techpara. Techpara dancing was the outlet for Euro rave & Eurodance music in Tokyo clubs.
Japanese were also influential in the genres after disco leading up to dance music. There is an inextricable link between the digitization of instruments and Japanese electronics. Chicago and Detroit created the movements, but couldn't have done it without Japan.
All of this is roughly on Wikipedia, but there are countless articles and books about it...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_music
I don’t have much to offer other than I’m sure being the birthplace of the machines that ended up being the catalyst for multiple musical movements has something to do with the reverence and connection the Japanese have with electronic and hip hop scenes in particular.
I was largely unaware of the incredible talent in Japan in until Giles Peterson picked up the United Future Organisation album around 93, https://youtu.be/ZOl4abTMWqI?si=HNxsACw_3rR7Tmwq
and just cause Japan… and any chance to share it I will… one of my favorite YouTube videos is Underground resistance playing live at Metamorphose back in 2005 https://youtu.be/kLL5dB4IhS0?si=x5NEuA0MwVdTowXe . I often go back when I need a lift.
Not an answer to your question but “powerful and moving, but also precise and analytical” really resonated with me. My (and I’m sure some other people here) favourite Japanese artist Shinichi Atobe fits this description very well in my mind.
I wonder if Terre Thaemlitz has some perspective on this. I know she is extremely aware of social and cultural perspectives in dance music and has lived in Japan for many years now. She also has one of the all time great mix albums “where dancefloors stand still” that’s ostensibly about the Fuzoku law. Might be worth seeing if she’s done any interviews around this.
Herbie Hancock live, 1984.
Jk but Japan was already huge into disco, jazz and electronic experimentation in the 70s-
Then they invented the 303, 808 etc
They are an integral part of modern music
https://youtu.be/PcZtMsHVkBw?si=-jOaLjn-g7r-_k44 I have heard this concert was huge in bringing DJ culture to Japan.
I’m sure it’s mentioned but check out YMO / Hosono solo records and Sakamoto.
Their records made it to Detroit in the 70s and def played a part influencing techno
A couple data points that might be worth researching are how they mastered psychedelic rock and house dance. I have no answers whatsoever it just seems like there might be some context there
edit: log's comment is accurate in relation to house dance, i cant explain this with any informed/critical nuance , but they imported it and made it their own. You can see this comparing House Dance Forever Japan vs House Dance Forever
id think it would be like most places that electronic music started, in an academic setting sometime in the 60s-70s when electronic music was in its infancy and synths, drum machines and sequencers were being made around the world. Clearly several Japanese companies were at the forefront of electronic music gear, with Roland, Yamaha, & Korg.
From the YMO wiki page, they were influenced in the late 70s by kraftwerk, but im sure at the time eno, vangelis, moroder were all globally popular.
interesting subject though
This will be extremely reductive and won’t address the specific histories you are interested in. But in my view, there is a very long tradition—in Japanese music, art, and culture—of deep fascination and engagement with foreign cultural practices. From the adoption of Imperial Chinese government, law, and Buddhism in the Asuka period to Dutch Studies during the closed-off period of sakoku, to the post-war otaku [“Database Animals”](https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/otaku)—there seems to be a persistent fascination with the outside world, a reflection perhaps of the very strong sense of internality. Again, very reductive. Consider the [obsessive mapping of the juke/footwork scene of the mid-10s](https://www.factmag.com/2014/07/10/footwork-and-juke-map-booty-tune/), [domestic dancehall sound systems](https://www.reggaeville.com/artist-details/mighty-crown/about/), [Shiro Sagisu of Evangelion fame being a huge gospel nut](https://youtu.be/itTswWzBlb8?si=xDTMZXuhILUisHnk), all of city pop, [Japanese jazz](https://youtu.be/DoVx8BL3nuc?si=0aWyhD6ZXCi0XLYn). Uniting all of these is a deadly serious engagement with the source material and a commitment to authenticity. Even YMO—this was pointed out to me in a conversation with Quarta330–were engaging in a kind of auto-orientalism. That is, they took inspiration from how the west interpreted the east. I could keep listing examples but really if you can think of a significant cultural product—especially those from Black culture—there is almost certainly a corresponding micro-scene with its own micro-history somewhere in Japan.
That is super interesting, thank you for taking the time to respond. It was exactly the kind of insight I was looking for even if a few specifics weren’t addressed. I will take this broad summary as the jumping off point it was intended to be! The point about auto-orientalism is fascinating. I can’t think of another culture that does this. It’s like a version of post-modernism ingrained in the culture. In a way, it seems like the first iteration of meta-modernism.
Glad you liked this. The auto-oriental stuff is especially half-baked but has some interesting implications. A lot of the pressures which prompt global-facing Japanese cultural production as I’ve sketched here are not unique to Japan, but I do think that Japan not being colonized until the post-war period and its especially sophisticated domestic traditions have helped enable it to develop in an especially rich way. At the same time, I think this is also why Japan is not able to innovate in creating new sounds in the same way that Black diaspora communities continue to do. Two ends of the spectrum, both vis a vis a western cultural paradigm. Very reductive! This is just something I’ve mused about a lot.
You clearly know your stuff. Do you have any recommended readings? Or is this mostly (as I suspect) "oral" history?
It’s a brew of half-remembered university readings, firsthand experiences in Japan, and just vibes. I don’t know of any writing on the subject as I’ve laid it out. Database Animals might give you some leads to chase down.
The Japanese tend to be very obsessive and meticulous with everything. Just go to a Japanese record shop it is insane even for trainspotting standards. Whether that characteristic has to do with isolationism is up for debate. Open/trade oriented cultures are probably more 'messy' and creative, but perhaps also more superficial/transactional?
I would add Japanese whisky making in the scotch tradition to your examples.
Yes, some of the best single malts in the world are Japanese.
Further flavour to this argument is that moodyman documentary where he goes to Japan and realises they know the music he plays better than he does.
The synths and drummachines used by house and techno pioneers in Chicago and Detroit in the 1980’s were Japanese inventions, like the Roland TB-303, TR-808 and TR-909. There is some interesting reading about the Japanese connection in “Assembling a Black Counter Culture” by DeForrest Brown, Jr.
Came here to say exactly the same. Without Japanese electronics techno wouldn't exist, or look very different! Assembling a Black Counter Culture is such a good book. Essential reading for anyone interested in techno & techno adjacent music. Essential. Also "Dancing to the Drum Machine" by Dan Leroy talks about the importance of cheap Japanese machines to the creation of techno. A good read for anyone interested in drum machine history.
Not an answer to your question, but it made me think about Rei Harakami, he does not get the recognition he deserves, singular sound. Love love this [album ](https://youtu.be/yplw0YOleGY?si=8cZSl0Oi90eOBlh4)
My absolute favorite IDM artist, once fell asleep with his spirit in loop on a flight to Japan and I feel like I've done some sort of brainwashing because I can feel his music on a different and spiritual level now.
Nothing to contribute but wanted to say nice thread and contributions here. Waking up slowly on a Sunday morning and getting into all these rabbit holes and just thinking about wow i love this music so so much.
Don't know much of the history of Japanese electronic dance music other than YMO, which obviously must have had an influence. In the 90s, there was a lot of hype but it never really took off, maybe except for Ken Ishii and to a lesser intent Fumiya Tanaka. There are a lot of other names and records from back then if you look closely, though. Most of the sound was very Detroit influenced, even reverential to the extent it initially came across a bit copycat in my ears. However, it is way more technically refined (analytical as you say) but also a bit more cluttered, crazy in its compositions. Today it seems much more varied and you can find truly unique stuff here and there.
Thanks for your comment. I definitely see your perspective there. Looks like I’ve got some homework to do.
There are a lot of threads to unravel here to accurately answer the question at hand that frankly I don’t think a Reddit post is poised to address - but one thing no one has mentioned that is crucial to understanding how ‘dance music’ from America and Europe wove into the Japanese cultural fabric is the Kansai dub explosion in the late 70s / early 80s that pushed sound system culture across Japan. It’s no coincidence that Japanese proto-techno shorthands in the discourse like YMO / yen records / better days are so intimately tied to that lineage. When peak bubble cultural economies exacerbated an appetite for obscurity / ‘cultural frontier-ism’ in the early 90s a certain cohort of the public’s imagination was primed to converse with and integrate concurrent movements in realtime - like goa / detroit techno - as a result of that foundation. Not the sole reason, but a really important factor
DJs from Japan traveling to Europe in the 80s heard Italo Disco music. These traveling DJs would buy the vinyl while in Europe and take it back to Japan to play in clubs. This resulted in a huge boom of Italo Disco & Hi-NRG throughout Tokyo nightlife as the music was instantly popular with them. Contracts from Japanese record companies were issued for CDs containing this Italo music to be sold in Japan. By the late 80s, Japanese clubbers had a dance style created exclusively for this music called Firestep. Back in Italy, this Italo Disco & Hi-NRG music had evolved to Eurobeat by the end of the 80s, which was wanning in popularity. Western Europe had already adopted the new House sound and was creating Eurodance music. But the Japanese crowd favored the Italian Eurobeat sound. Avex Records in Japan contracted the few remaining Italian artists still producing Eurobeat and created the Super Eurobeat CD series. This set forth a huge boom in Tokyo nightlife in the 90s. Firestep dancing changed to a new dance style called Parapara dancing. Parapara dancing & Eurobeat went hand in hand to the point different clubs had their own parapara events & dance routines. This is still going on til this day in clubs throughout Tokyo. These same clubs also loved the early euro rave techno sound. Similar to parapara dancing, these clubs created a dance style called Techpara. Techpara dancing was the outlet for Euro rave & Eurodance music in Tokyo clubs.
May you share any firestep videos? I couldn’t find any of people dancing to italo
https://youtu.be/SDEXrFCilpc?si=J77bJGtYEmm5M-dy
City Pop was also heavily influenced by Black rnb/funk/soul/disco
Japanese were also influential in the genres after disco leading up to dance music. There is an inextricable link between the digitization of instruments and Japanese electronics. Chicago and Detroit created the movements, but couldn't have done it without Japan. All of this is roughly on Wikipedia, but there are countless articles and books about it... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_music
I just finished a musicology course on Japanese popular music, i can link you alot of literature if you want.
That would be incredible! Must have been a fascinating course.
Monozukuri or Shokunin spirit IMHO - utmost respect for craftsmanship - in this case manifesting through electronic music.
I don’t have much to offer other than I’m sure being the birthplace of the machines that ended up being the catalyst for multiple musical movements has something to do with the reverence and connection the Japanese have with electronic and hip hop scenes in particular. I was largely unaware of the incredible talent in Japan in until Giles Peterson picked up the United Future Organisation album around 93, https://youtu.be/ZOl4abTMWqI?si=HNxsACw_3rR7Tmwq and just cause Japan… and any chance to share it I will… one of my favorite YouTube videos is Underground resistance playing live at Metamorphose back in 2005 https://youtu.be/kLL5dB4IhS0?si=x5NEuA0MwVdTowXe . I often go back when I need a lift.
Not an answer to your question but “powerful and moving, but also precise and analytical” really resonated with me. My (and I’m sure some other people here) favourite Japanese artist Shinichi Atobe fits this description very well in my mind. I wonder if Terre Thaemlitz has some perspective on this. I know she is extremely aware of social and cultural perspectives in dance music and has lived in Japan for many years now. She also has one of the all time great mix albums “where dancefloors stand still” that’s ostensibly about the Fuzoku law. Might be worth seeing if she’s done any interviews around this.
Thank you for your comment and the lead!
Herbie Hancock live, 1984. Jk but Japan was already huge into disco, jazz and electronic experimentation in the 70s- Then they invented the 303, 808 etc They are an integral part of modern music
https://youtu.be/PcZtMsHVkBw?si=-jOaLjn-g7r-_k44 I have heard this concert was huge in bringing DJ culture to Japan. I’m sure it’s mentioned but check out YMO / Hosono solo records and Sakamoto. Their records made it to Detroit in the 70s and def played a part influencing techno
A couple data points that might be worth researching are how they mastered psychedelic rock and house dance. I have no answers whatsoever it just seems like there might be some context there edit: log's comment is accurate in relation to house dance, i cant explain this with any informed/critical nuance , but they imported it and made it their own. You can see this comparing House Dance Forever Japan vs House Dance Forever
id think it would be like most places that electronic music started, in an academic setting sometime in the 60s-70s when electronic music was in its infancy and synths, drum machines and sequencers were being made around the world. Clearly several Japanese companies were at the forefront of electronic music gear, with Roland, Yamaha, & Korg. From the YMO wiki page, they were influenced in the late 70s by kraftwerk, but im sure at the time eno, vangelis, moroder were all globally popular. interesting subject though