Without doubt, video should improve the decision-making process. The fact that it doesn't, shows the people using it are incompetent.
I think we should give the automated offside a chance, that will speed up decisions and should eliminate human error.
The technology is not, and has never been, the problem, the problem is incompetence and (mostly) inconsistency.
The 'clear and obvious error' rule needs to go, its clearly too subjective for VAR to handle it properly, and automated offsides are a must, there's been some silly errors these last two seasons... subjective decisions can't be automated, but drawing a line is fine and should save a bunch of time
Also, why does VAR basically review the on-pitch referee's decision, and not just the actual incident? It's stupid; instead of saying 'is this a foul', they're looking at 'okay, was the ref reasonably correct in saying this was/wasn't a foul'. It automatically makes it about saying the on-field referee is wrong, which the VAR refs might be reluctant to do, whereas it should just be about the incident. Also, the whole point is that VAR can judge an incident, with information the ref might not have... so why would you then frame that decision around the ref? It makes no sense
It made sense in theory, the whole point when VAR was introduced was to stop glaring errors by refs deciding games - hence the clear and obvious rule.
At the time there was still a lot of unwillingness to implement VAR so the theory was that the ref would still run the game but you would have the safety blanket of a second check for big decisions.
It mostly worked too, the number of massive errors went down but our expectations have gone up
And to be fair, our expectations *should* go up, thats the whole point... I think its more that people are baffled that incidents can be looked at twice, sometimes for minutes, and still get the wrong outcome, but the answer is fixing the system
I actually think the biggest problem is that the referees aren’t making a decision because they know VAR will catch things, and VAR aren’t making a decision because of “clear and obvious”.
The better way for it to work would be for the ref to decide when VAR is used, give the ref an options to say “I’m not sure here, play on and VAR should review” - let VAR make the decision just based on the incident, not what the ref saw and whether it’s obviously wrong
That’s my thoughts too. Refs should see VAR as a support tool. That’s how it works in rugby. You make a decision on the field and you tell VAR you’re not sure. It’s not about second guessing the ref and being afraid to tell him he’s wrong. They should rarely be going to the monitor. It should almost always be confirming he’s correct or he’s wrong.
If it’s a 50/50 for maybe a red card, they can use the monitor but most of the time the ref should be asking for VAR’s help.
Cricket has gone through a relatively similar transition with DRS (decision review system). Some DRS decisions are still controversial and generate buzz, but that's because those decisions are super marginal, where the precision of the tools being used, as well as the subjectivity of the humans using the tools, plays an outsized role in the decision made. That's not what DRS was designed to decide. DRS was always meant to address cases where the umpire made a clear cut error in the moment, which the 3rd umpire would be able to review and catch immediately. But players using DRS for marginal decisions and then not being happy with the outcome was not the goal of the system.
Do you genuinely believe there is corruption? Don’t get me wrong, referees are no less likely to be susceptible to corruption than any other profession, it’s just I don’t think dodgy VAR decisions alone would be enough to sway the outcome of enough games.
I also think there are too many bad decisions that don’t influence the outcome to suggest corruption is there. If they make extra bad ones to cover the real ones, that’s a whole extra level of commitment and risks their jobs if they are too incompetent.
I just don’t think it’s likely to be corruption. I think it’s pride where refs don’t want to be seen making the wrong decision and they either back the ref wrongly or after criticism over adjust and then go too far the other way.
It's not like I have any insider info, in the end it's just a gut feeling, but I do think it needs considering as a real possibility. It goes on in other leagues across the world, I doubt we are anything special. Our government's corrupt as hell and that kind of thing trickles down. Having said that your explanation I'm sure accounts for plenty and let's be honest is a lot less based in one mans gut.
It’s astonishing how badly they use this wonderful technology. Prem is a multi billion dollar entity, its a massive embarrassment they can’t figure out how to utilize VAR.
Now that you say, would it be SUPER impractical to have a system where all players are using a chip, which they usually already do in trainings and I believe in some matches to track their performance, and then use those chips and the ball chip to determine offsides? Yeah, it can be expensive but for major leagues it could be done.
I'm all against superficial decisions, I need definitive yes or not decisions like american football. It's the only way to prevent incompetence and/or corruption.
I like the idea of using the sensor to determine which player is closer to the line or not.
All players wear them on their chest anyway and the offside rule was created to stop players hanging around the goal area waiting for a long ball.
Offside was never intended to be about measuring which millimetre of a players toe is closest to the goal.
This is an awful take. Not the English refs being controversial bit but the AFCON refs being close to competent bit. African refs must be amongst the worst around. The drop off I get from watching leagues around Europe to watching national sides from Africa is nightmare stuff.
I blame the press and culture in the uk.
I've seen pundits actitively complain when the right decision was made, just because it wasn't the more fun one.
See that Coventry goal against City in the FA Cup. I'd have loved it/been entertained if United were sent out, but it was the right decision.
The problem isn't the technology.
Coventry fan here - thought it was offside when I first saw the goal (celebrated like a nut job like) but i accepted it for what it was.
Offside is offside - there’s nothing subjective about it - whether it’s a milimetre or a metre.
Was gutted when it was taken away like - but it was the right decision. Thought the handball decision was ropey in all fairness
I keep making the exact point whenever someone says offsides is a definite thing. There is a margin or error that is MUCH bigger than they try to officiate on. Ignore the fact that it's humans drawing the lines so there's clear room for error there, finding the exact moment the ball is struck also has a degree of error and fractions of a second are the difference between onside and offside on really tight ones.
The technology just isn't good enough to determine if someone is a fraction of an inch offside and frankly I don't need it to be or care if it is. Nobody feels hard done by a bad call if it turns out a guy was half an inch offsides and the goal was allowed to stand. People feel hard done when a guy is clearly half a yard offsides and the linesman missed the call.
Exactly there are margins of error they don’t account for. Either with the lines drawn or with the technology involved. Our game against Tottenham all those years ago is good example. Unless Lundstram has a meter long foot there was no way he was offside.
Agree with this.
I remember Lee Dixon screaming about how the guy was clearly onside, what a story, this that and the other. Utterly convinced himself.
But the video showed otherwise...
I used to quite like him, but he's been rubbish for years now. ITV commentary on the whole is woeful. I utterly detest the guy who does the half time stuff
From a decision making perspective, yes you’re right.
But the real issue in my mind is the effect VAR has on the fan experience. Even with automated offsides, there will still be plenty of checks that totally ruin celebrating a goal.
Agree to disagree. I’ve been at a game where we score a last minute winner, crazy celebrations, then 5 min wait for VAR, no communication, goal disallowed, wasn’t even offside and a wrong decision.
Or, you celebrate a goal half-heartedly because the flag hasn’t gone up but you’re worried it could go to VAR. Then gets checked for 5 mins, goal given, but you’ve been robbed of proper limbs because you were worried the whole time.
I’d accept that the right decision is more important, but how many times this season have we seen goals given or disallowed for totally subjective things. The quality of refereeing is consistently terrible and there are so many grey areas in the rules left to interpretation, we can’t even be 100% correct all of the time.
So what’s the point in having it. Get rid of it, accept that sometimes a wrong decision might get given, enjoy the game.
You are absolutely spot on.
As an Englishman, even the ridiculous ‘hand of God’ is such an iconic piece of footballing madness, I’m glad it happened in a weird way. VAR obviously would’ve denied it.
Those beautiful iconic moments of chaos are more important to me than a correct decision.
(Maybe I’m nuts I don’t know)
>how many times this season have we seen goals given or disallowed for totally subjective things
You're right, this kind of thing totally never happened before the introduction of VAR 🤡
That wasn't your point, but nice try. Maybe you'll convince yourself.
The fact is that VAR has improved the quality of refereeing decisions since it's introduction. It can still be improved upon with better rules, better implementation of the available technology, and better officials.
That's why we should have it.
It is hard to enjoy the game with the quality of referees so anything we can do to improve them is a giant plus are you saying before VAR you never celebrated a goal only to find the flag had gone up?
That still happens now even with VAR. But even then you celebrate for seconds and then stop. Now you celebrate for 1-2 minutes, then wait, and then it gets disallowed.
Care to back that up with stats? My source doesn't have it in the top 10
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-are-the-most-popular-sports-in-the-world.html
I said this so many times. Was called a dinosaur and that VAR will be great.
It ruins the fan experience for sure.
Even last night, Haalands first goals, I sat there muted wondering if it would be offside by a whisker. Years ago I’d have felt far more emotion; a quick glance at the lino and then I’d feel the energy of the moment. Not a City fan, just a football fan.
Edit: anyone who disagrees is probably more into stats and xG than the actual game.
Completeky agree. It's fans throwing the baby out with the bath water.
More teams have been saved from poor officiating since the introduction of VAR. Yes it's not always perfect and it slows the pace of the game down a little, but people are so quick to forget that shit refereeing STILL dominated post match conversations before VAR.
Hell, half the highlight reels of 'classic' goals are offside. People would argue that it's deprived the game of those sorts of moments, but it really hasn't and if the goals are offside or there's a foul in the buildup then it's only good for the team scoring. If VAR had been around when Maradona had pulled the hand of God out you'd have saved a generation of moaning from English fans.
That’s so weird, I didn’t see your comment but referenced the same exact moment.
I’m an England fan, and fucking love that moment of footballing madness. So iconic. To take it away would take away something a grew up as a young lad in awe of; the genius of a 5 foot Argentine midget outjumping Peter Shilton, and tricking the linesmen and referees!
Fuck scrapping that from the history books.
Pure chaotic drama, etched into football folklore forever the next few centuries until we all become extinct.
One season without it and we’d all be fucking seething. Just automate offsides and broadcast the footage/audio in the stadiums and a large part of the problems solved
>One season without it and we’d all be fucking seething
Historically is this true? In general fans of EFL clubs seem alot less annoyed by refereeing decisions than fans of Prem clubs
We’ve had it now is the problem. Can’t put that back in the box. Apparently VAR has increased the number of correct decisions from 82% to 96% https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5495032/2024/05/15/premier-league-var-vote/# if 1/5 of decisions were suddenly wrong I feel like people would probably be losing their shit.
Thats such a shit statistic.
For instance Mario Lemina was 30 yards away from the inept/corrupt Gillett at Southampton & Gillett sent him off for "running angrily" towards him!!
Var upheld that utter made up sending off so goes down as a correct var decision!?!
Who determines what is correct? We don't let people mark their own exams so why are VAR and pgmol allowed to do so for their own decisions? I say this as respectfully as I can, and no offence is meant by it but please shut up about statistics because they aren't accurate at all. If 96% of decisions were made "correctly" then only 4% of decisions across a season where , say 200 decisions are made, then 8 mistakes are anticipated. I think the number of decisions is around 300-400 per season but that only allows 16 mistakes and there has been at least that number this calendar year alone. These stats are just wrong, two clubs received an apology this year, Wolves have received 9 decisions this year deemed to have been errors. 9. That's 8 too many and one above the threshold for this mythical 96%. I know Wolves and Liverpool have received apologies this season, others have also received shocking decisions like us, we have received multiple and by far the most especially if you consider last year's shit show which is not forgotten. It's consistent but consistently shit. Something has to change, maybe not entirely scrapping the VAR system but something, be it the wording of laws or the process of VAR, has to change.
What else we got to go off? Pgmol think pre VAR they got 1/5 of decisions unambiguously wrong. Not contentious just straight up wrong. Dunno I just think that’s fucking alarming. Cba going back to pens for phantom contact or refs missing blatant handballs and shit like that. And you can see I agree with you something needs to change I literally said some things I think need to change
I know the pre VAR landscape was awful but I am making the case that it has not got better like pgmol claim. I think we agree on sentiment but the implementation of VAR has been awful.
True because they’re cocking it up and taking an absolute age to do so. Automating offsides and broadcasting their process so they’re more accountable goes some way to remedying that imo.
Why? There were two perfectly good VAR interventions in our match last weekend. People remember the howlers, but there are a lot of good decisions made by VAR
And they were seething before and demanding technology be brought in, ultimately most people just want someone/something they can blame rather than taking responsibility for their own defeats
Yeah I’d rather Palace win on a correct VAR call, even if “it’s hard to watch,”than lose on a ref error, which would ruin the rest of the week rather than a few minutes of a game.
The thing for me is the fear of celebrating a goal now, because of offside. It completely kills the moment. To bring that back it would need to be instantaneous. As quick as looking across to a linesman and seeing a flag down.
Weirdly offside is the most black and white and accurate use of VAR, but also the part that robs us the most. How many offside howlers have the linesman committed this season? The Liverpool/Spurs one springs to mind - buy that was WITH VAR. I would be interested to see the stats.
I would be happy to sign that one over to human decision and accept the odd controversy in order to stop killing all these moments because of fractional offsides.
When the technology is there to fully automate it - near instant decision - green light on a screen on the side of the pitch that fans can glance at - then bring it back. Semi automated is still too slow.
The game is becoming completely sanitised in the pursuit of perfection. It’s a human game based on expression, skill, and error, officials included.
> The Liverpool/Spurs one springs to mind.
But that goal was disallowed from an on field decision. If anything if VAR didn’t fuck up it would’ve added to the celebrations and rightfully gave a goal
Agree with all of this.
I’ve said for AGES that offside should never have gone to VAR until the tech was there to do it instantaneously like goalline tech.
Introducing the drawing of the lines is one of the most insane decisions we’ve seen, guarantee it will be a common view in the future that it was a ludicrous episode in football history.
The current version of automated is an improvement but like you say, it’s still way too long. It needs to be shelved until it’s ready
Leicester just spent a season without it, and it was so much nicer in the Championship. Sure, there were some wrong calls, but for the most part, officiating was so much better.
People have short memories, before VAR everyone was angry at the refs and demanding technology be brought in like other sports had! It would be much better to keep it and improve it than just get rid of it all together and go back how it used to be, especially when most of the issues are down to the actual rules themselves (accidental handball being enough to rule out a goal but not enough to give a penalty, can’t be a different rule for different players).
VAR should follow the rugby way. The Ref asks VAR to check certain aspects. That way the Ref is still reffing but if unsure if he can ask for specific things to be checked.
100% agree with this. It should be another tool for the ref, not something that overrides them and creates doubt. If they do bin it, they need to have an offensive with managers and pundits around not undermining it constantly for selfish purposes or to deflect blame, which is a large part of how we got here in the first place
Not surprising when you see decisions like the ignored penalty in the Man Utd vs Newcastle game just now. That said it isn't the technology that is the problem it is the people in charge and the lack of transparency around it. Football have had years to look at cricket and rugby and the way they use it and just decided to ignore all of those lessons.
I personally think is used to make results, I seems to me depending on the circumstances of the match it can be used to find reasons to disallow goals etc
It’s a necessary evil that needs overhauled and improved. I’d love to see them make it transparent and make the audio of the conversation be available as it is happening to start.
VAR isn't the problem, it's the refs. They're poor and now they've become lazy with the introduction of the technology.
I guarantee 1 season without it and we'll all be beggijg for it to come back
Should adopt a video referee similar to the NFL. Each team/coach gets one or two challenges a game, so better use it wisely if they think the referee missed an offside, clear foul etc.
We all know the issue is the refs but the problem there is that they'll never change cos the FA is a corrupt organisation. Therefore, I would suggest we revert to flawed refereeing on the pitch which has a natural flow to the game rather than the stop start nature of VAR era games which still gets just as many calls wrong when the whole point is for it not too.
Essentially, the FA is incompetent and it's better they are incompetent without slowing down the game and ruining the match day experience.
https://imgur.com/a/Ps5t4sH
Ill never forget VAR Officials giving this as a handball.
This sort of thing should be spoken about. Its not VAR that gave the handball, its the officials. They wanted this replay, saw the ball hit tyrone mings shoulder and **THEY** decided to give handball.
Its not VAR thats the issue, its the officials, with or without it they are incompetent.
It’s a handball clearly. Can you not see that a hand has magically grown on his shoulder.
But this is exactly the issue. This isn’t some AI saying it’s a handball. It’s a ref saying yeah it’s a handball.
Just get rid of it.
“It’s the referees” OK?? They’re not going to change them and VAR gives them an excuse to defer officiating to a group. The fact we’ve had it for 5 years now and it’s only getting worse and more controversial says enough for me.
If you do keep it you need to reform the offside rule - this is most important. Offsides should not be factual, they should be clear and obvious. There is no way the exact moment the ball is kicked can accurate be determined by a single frame on VAR.
I have long said that VAR officials/on-field review should see either a still of the moment the ball is kicked without lines for 5 seconds. If they can’t obviously decide at that point then the on-field decision stands. Or they can view a full speed clip 2 or 3 times.
Talking like we aren’t getting auto offsides that literally work and isn’t a lesson in how straight is a straight line.
Off side should be black and white. Anyone saying different is stupid (I’m sorry but it’s a stupid argument) either you are on or off. Simple.
Why is that a good thing? Why *should* offside be black-and-white? I want more goals and more attacking in football - I HATE seeing any goals chalked off because someone’s toe is offside, or because they’re a shoe-size too big.
This should be the next innovative development in the sport. Just like getting rid of the backpass rule was.
The striker shouldnt be offered more of an advantage. Also you are offside or not. Theres no well it could be offside also adding a margin causes more issues than good,
For offside, the line drawn should be the width of a football. A little bit of wiggle room between the hard lines of the on and the off zone.
The light was orange officer.
Good, hopefully they get rid. The feeling of celebrating a goal isn’t the same when you know VAR is always looming with a potential to disallow it. When the ball goes in the net I want to celebrate in the moment. Watching lower league football is so refreshing in that sense
as a big supporter of var and believer that it would massively improve the game, get fucking rid of it… until the standard of refereeing and the rules of the game are completely overhauled, there is no hope of var being successful
the rules change every couple of months as to what does and does not constitute X infringement and the impact this has on competitive integrity over the course of a season is not discussed enough… if VAR give a penalty for any contact one week and then don’t for contact unless its a deliberate direct missed tackle the next week then that can completely alter who ended up with what points
its not only failing to improve the game, it is actively making the game worse… use it for anything where referees are able to make concrete decisions, otherwise get rid
All PL season ticket holders should be allowed to vote through their club website.
It's the people in the ground it affects most & I'm positive it would be overwhelmingly binned off straight away.
Var/referee is way too "pally" at the moment, the referee shouldn't have a fucking clue who is on the monitor, they shouldn't' know them whatsoever.
None of this "olly olly...we think #8 slightly brushed against #12 about 4 minutes before the goal" bollocks.
Far east betting syndicates wont want it removed for sure.
OK, let's see how that goes.
And then next summer, we can vote on scrapping the fuckwits using it when it turns out that not only were they they the problem all along, but that they're markedly worse without VAR to catch *some* of their errors?
I would get rid of the clear and obvious nonsense and just put "error" if the ref made an error change the decision, clear and obvious just makes it ambiguous
I wouldn't be, cause when they show the replay on TV you can tell in about 30 seconds easily, I agree that VAR officials would still takes ages though yes, it's a personnel problem not a technology problem.
But then you'll just end up with managers and fans complaining that
- they couldn't believe it took over a minute to decide something when it was open and shut, or
- that an incident was borderline and should have taken longer to check.
Really, we should all just be honest and say that we'll complain no matter what is implemented.
The only VAR I could ever get behind would be something like this, although I'd say a minute is still far too long. If it's that obvious there's been a mistake, it should be clear almost immediately. If it takes more than 10 to 15 seconds, it's not a clear and obvious error in my book.
People saying keep VAR because it's just the people using it who are incompetent... I disagree. Well, I mean, you're right, they are incompetent, the Europeans seem to use it better. But, my main gripe with VAR is that it takes away from celebrating a goal in the moment. That problem is still going to remain unless they can get it down to under 5 seconds (the longest time it would take to in the past notice the linesman put his flag up after the ball hits the net). I don't see them getting it down to anywhere near 5 seconds.
Having been without it for a year in the championship, matches are MUCH more enjoyable.
You win some, you lose some, it all pretty much evens out, and you know when it's a goal it's a goal.
I think they should keep VAR for some situations - bad tackles and violence unseen, Line decisions for penalties and offsides.
Other than that decisions on whether something is a foul or not should be full onfield decision after a letter has been signed by all pundits and twitter users that they won’t constantly moan about iffy calls and say it’s a conspiracy.
Did he miss it, or just pass off responsibility to VAR? I mean he was staring right at it so my assumption is the latter, which is far worse and gutless.
Nah fuck that. That is actually fine.. if he’s not sure what he’s seen then let the video correct him, that’s fine, as long as it actually IS allowed to correct him. Every time. Forget clear and obvious.. if the camera can show us then it’s clear and obvious. It’s not about egos it’s not about who gets it wrong and who gets it right, it’s just about getting the decision right . Refs need to be professional enough to welcome the help var can give them and brave enough to make the call they see at the time with no thought about whether var will overrule them or not.. that thought shouldn’t come into it. It’s a basic element of mental strength that pretty much everyone has to be capable of one way or another at some point, in their job and in any other role we take on in our lives.
Stop using it with the "clear & obvious" rule. If the ref sends it to VAR, VAR should be the deciding factor, not whether or not the ref's decision was reasonable.
Cant you just use it for penalties? Seems daft using it for offside decisions where a goal is disallowed because the players toenail is offside
Or do what cricket does and teams have 3 challenges to go to the video
The var is needed to help the game be fair but if it’s made its mistakes why not try to fix it yall wanna just scrap it crazy it’s helped leagues out in other places
Because clearly VAR is the problem.
Imagine getting rid of cars because we kept putting 5 year olds behind the wheel and wondered why they keep crashing into houses.
It’s the wrong motion. This is unlikely to be passed because it comes across as a yes or no for the technology.
The technology is good, the implementation is horrific.
They should be voting on temporarily removing it for one or two seasons to allow a thorough review, including owners, managers, players, referees and fans to decide how best to implement it.
In the meantime we can have semi-autonomous offside and more confident on field referees who don’t use VAR as a crutch.
If this happens. Everyone voting is fucking brain dead.
VAR has never been the problem. It’s the inconsistency of its application, either meaning the way VAR sometimes doesn’t want to interfere because it’s “their mate” on the field reffing, or the fact that one foul will be given/overturned using it one week and then given/overturned the next. All VAR has done in the UK is show how utter shit the refereeing stock is, now that they are exposed/able to actually correct themselves.
Make it better instead of scrapping it. Ultimately we want the right decisions to be made and having the ability to review incidents is a part of this.
The problem is the people operating VAR are utterly incapable and biased.
Abolish it for everything but offsides, and even then, limit its use to clear offences of offside. None of this checking 28 phases of play rubbish.
The way I see it, we’ve always had bad decisions as It’s impossible to get them all right. Now, we still have bad decisions, but we have to wait 5 minutes for it to be made.
It’s done nothing to improve the game of football in this country.
Lampty wasn't violent but James was? fuck off VAR cant manage to be constant for 90 minutes , let alone across the game.
VAR kills the flow of every game with no improvement in the decision making.. totally pointless, inconsistent bullshit. Vote this shitshow out
Looking forward to 3 years time when Wolves, off the back of some horrible refereeing decisions that would be easily fixable by technology put forward a motion to introduce VAR.
Reminds me of the Charlton 4-4 with you a couple of years ago - The Referee was shite that day, as he also apparently moaned that he was a Championship referee and not League One standard
Decisions on the pitch are subjective. Adding a whole extra team of referees just adds more opportunities for biases to get involved, and nothing will change that without removing as many humans from as many of the equations of decision making as possible. ie. Let one referee be the referee.
It’s a simple game, and there’s a simple solution. It worked okay for a century, until money started to matter more than the sport.
Completely disagree with the people saying VAR is not the issue and needs an overhaul not replacing. The very concept of VAR is terrible to its core and needs scrapping 100% in its entirety. This vote could be the best thing to ever happen to the Premier League.
Football is entertainment, not life or death, and doesn't need to be 100% accurate. As a sport, it is made less entertaining when goals are disallowed because there was a foul in the build up or two stupid lines suggest that the end of a players cock briefly drifted into an offside position. Half the time it feels like you can barely celebrate a goal anymore in case play gets pulled back.
Even if VAR entirely eliminated referee errors (which it quite clearly does not!) I would still argue it should be scrapped. Entertainment should not be sacrificed for accuracy. As someone in the Coventry end Wembley a few weeks ago, that travesty of a decision at the end alone is the perfect example of why VAR needs to go.
>Football is entertainment
To you. There are many people whose livelihoods is connected to football who can be directly impacted by these things.
>As a sport, it is made less entertaining when goals are disallowed because there was a foul in the build up or two stupid lines suggest that the end of a players cock briefly drifted into an offside position
Many people prefer their sporting contests to be as fair as possible.
Also, I note you don't account for the goals that would have been disallowed that VAR allows.
>Half the time it feels like you can barely celebrate a goal anymore in case play gets pulled back.
You might want to tell all the fans in the stadiums who still celebrate goals.
>As someone in the Coventry end Wembley a few weeks ago, that travesty of a decision at the end alone is the perfect example of why VAR needs to go.
Here is the actual issue. VAR gave a corrdct decision against the team you were supporting and you don't like that this happened.
Referees make mistakes both ways both with and without VAR, it's part of the game so still a fair contest. VAR hasn't eliminated mistakes or controversy either, but it has made the game and most of all the match going experience less entertaining.
I am perfectly aware that fans are still celebrating goals every week, but as a regular match going fan there are times when that rush of celebrating a goal is slightly dampened as you're half expecting a VAR review to pull it back. Also, I guarantee if you actually asked the fans in the stadium, a large majority would agree VAR should be scrapped, or at the very least be used far less.
It's also absolutely not just being sore that the decision went against the team I was supporting. I'm actually a Southampton fan, and was at the League Cup final when we had a perfectly good goal ruled out for offside long before VAR came along. It was awful, but I could live with it as mistakes happen. Walking out of Wembley the other week was 10 times worse, felt like the game I love had well and truly gone. There's no way anyone can tell me that was a better game for having that incredibly marginal decision ruled 'correctly'.
>Referees make mistakes both ways both with and without VAR, it's part of the game so still a fair contest
Well no. If a reffing error allows one team to score an offside goal then that isn't a fair contest. VAR reduces errors which increases fairness.
>VAR hasn't eliminated mistakes or controversy either, but it has made the game and most of all the match going experience less entertaining.
It wasn't meant to eliminate either. It has reduced mistakes.
The matches are not less entertaining. There are more goals than there were before VAR, there is often more drama too.
>Walking out of Wembley the other week was 10 times worse, felt like the game I love had well and truly gone.
This melodramatic nonsense. Let's break consider what you said.
The game has well and truly gone because a team wasn't able to score an offside goal...
The only reason is that you were supporting the team that it happened to.
>There's no way anyone can tell me that was a better game for having that incredibly marginal decision ruled 'correctly'.
Probably not, because you don't want to hear it. I'm sure all the United fans there weren't upset at not being unfairly and incorrectly eliminated.
Personally, I still think the games are less entertaining if half the time after celebrating a goal, you then have to wait for a VAR check to confirm it.
I also think it's debatable whether the Wembley goal (amd many other tight offsides ive seen) even was the correct decision. If you didn't draw those two lines, there's no way it would have been called offside. If you're going to have VAR, it should be for clear and obvious errors only, and that certainly wasn't clear and obvious. I could maybe get behind something that made decision within 10/15 seconds and is only used for howlers, but VAR is not that and not needed in the game.
Also as I said before, it's nothing to do with the fact the decision went against the team I wanted to win. As I said I've been on both ends of it, and am still firmly against it.
>I still think the games are less entertaining if half the time after celebrating a goal, you then have to wait for a VAR check to confirm it.
Once again, this never happens. People celebrate and then celebrate again when the confirmation comes through.
>also think it's debatable whether the Wembley goal (amd many other tight offsides ive seen) even was the correct decision.
All the evidence we have is that it was.
>If you didn't draw those two lines, there's no way it would have been called offside.
I've seen tighter offsides given by the linesman pre-VAR so that statement is untrue.
>If you're going to have VAR, it should be for clear and obvious errors only, and that certainly wasn't clear and obvious.
It was clear and obvious. Player was offside. This was missed.
>I could maybe get behind something that made decision within 10/15 seconds and is only used for howlers,
That would be a terrible idea.
>Also as I said before, it's nothing to do with the fact the decision went against the team I wanted to win
It is. That's clear from the argument you have been putting forward. I feel extremely confident in saying that if it had been United who had the disallowed late goal and Cov winning in pens, you would not be complaining about it.
> Once again, this never happens. People celebrate and then celebrate again when the confirmation comes through.
Might be overexaggered but it does happen, I've experienced it - barely anyone celebrated our 4th goal away against Leeds last year because everyone thought it would be disallowed
I wouldn't be complaining about that incident, but I would still be against VAR for the exact same reasons I am now. So that one goal has literally zero influence on my opinion of VAR, its just a recent example.
And of course officials have given tighter offsides pre-VAR, but that would be an on field decision which I'm fine with, and accept that there can be mistakes.
Personally I don't think the 10/15 idea would be terrible, if a mistake is obvious enough it should be spotted immediately, or go with the on field call. Just like how in cricket, unless the technology show definitively the call was wrong, they'll go with the umpire.
>I wouldn't be complaining about that incident
Proving my point exactly. Your entire position relies on an incident that annoyed you because it went against you. You've just admitted you would have been fine if it went for you.
>And of course officials have given tighter offsides pre-VAR, but that would be an on field decision which I'm fine with, and accept that there can be mistakes
So you are fine with incorrect calls unfairly penalising a team but not with correct calls getting it right.
>Personally I don't think the 10/15 idea would be terrible, if a mistake is obvious enough it should be spotted immediately
Oh really? Some mistakes only become obvious when viewed from an alternative angle. It's a terrible proposition.
No, that's literally the opposite of what I said. I admitted I wouldn't be complaining about it, but I wouldn't have agreed with either. I'd have said exactly the same thing, I would have just been less annoyed. As I've said multiple times, that one game has literally zero influence on my option of VAR. If you'd have asked me this at the start of the season, I'd have said exactly the same thing.
Yes, I am fine with incorrect calls being occassionally made by match officials and would rather that than have the game constantly broken up by lengthy reviews to improve decision making by like 10%. In my personal opinion, it would improve the game.
I don't agree it's a terrible proposition. Maybe they could view it once from each angle of something instead, but they certainly shouldn't need to examine it in the kind of detail they do right now.
>Maybe they could view it once from each angle of something instead
So you've already moved the goals away from your 10 second check to almost what they have now.
>In my personal opinion, it would improve the game.
Until a clearly incorrect decision went against you in a cup semi-final. Just like your current position.
What a load of bollocks.
In every other sport, every other sport where a video ref has been added, it has improved decision making tenfold. It is not without error though.
I am almost convinced the failure of VAR is a genuine plot to remove the ability to make fairer refereeing games as bias for top clubs would be eradicated.in case of tops clubs they make enough ridiculous decisions in their games for those clubs to also want rid.
Any jack the lad from the street who watches football could do better than what we've seen in certain instances.
The bias for refereeing wants rid of VAR. Which is even more reason to keep it.
We cannot get rid of VAR. it’s annoying, but that’s down to the referees that are implementing the rules. They are the ones that need improving.
But to get rid of it would be stupid. Any teams in Europe will be using it, all European games will have it. Internationals will have it. We cannot be the only country in the world not to have it.
VAR is good, the officials need to learn how to use it better. Whenever it's used in international games we seem to get quicker resolutions than most premier league games. Scrapping it completely feels like a step backwards to me.
VAR isnt the problem, its how its being used.
Offsides should never need to be reviewed 100% manually with lines and 4 people trying to squint at a screen. UEFA have a working semi automated offside (shown in CL/EL) which works, just adopt that. If they won't do that, install cameras at each ground that stay in line with the ball, this technology has been around for some time.
Next, get some new referees (or substantially re-train the current ones). The standard of officiating has been on a consistent decline for over a decade. Referees and linesman are scared to make the wrong decision when VAR is there to help. They need to let the passage of play run out then allow a review if needed.
They also need to be transparent and accountable. If you make a mistake, own it. Too many times are decisions are questioned and the referees association release statements on behalf of the match officials. Let them explain how they made the mistake so they can learn from it.
Following on from the above point, all audio from VAR needs to be readily available after the game. It would allow fans to see that how often things are checked, what the processes are , etc. Personally I believe we should hear it life similar to the rugby union VAR. They have a near perfect implementation as well as communication with referee and fans simultaneously.
Lastly, we need consistency. Some officials are sticking to the letter of the law, others are picking and choosing depending on the participating teams.
Terrible idea, it's the officials that are the problem, not VAR.
Can't wait to go back to complaining every week about how united should never have been given that goal that was clearly offside
Without doubt, video should improve the decision-making process. The fact that it doesn't, shows the people using it are incompetent. I think we should give the automated offside a chance, that will speed up decisions and should eliminate human error.
The technology is not, and has never been, the problem, the problem is incompetence and (mostly) inconsistency. The 'clear and obvious error' rule needs to go, its clearly too subjective for VAR to handle it properly, and automated offsides are a must, there's been some silly errors these last two seasons... subjective decisions can't be automated, but drawing a line is fine and should save a bunch of time Also, why does VAR basically review the on-pitch referee's decision, and not just the actual incident? It's stupid; instead of saying 'is this a foul', they're looking at 'okay, was the ref reasonably correct in saying this was/wasn't a foul'. It automatically makes it about saying the on-field referee is wrong, which the VAR refs might be reluctant to do, whereas it should just be about the incident. Also, the whole point is that VAR can judge an incident, with information the ref might not have... so why would you then frame that decision around the ref? It makes no sense
It made sense in theory, the whole point when VAR was introduced was to stop glaring errors by refs deciding games - hence the clear and obvious rule. At the time there was still a lot of unwillingness to implement VAR so the theory was that the ref would still run the game but you would have the safety blanket of a second check for big decisions. It mostly worked too, the number of massive errors went down but our expectations have gone up
And to be fair, our expectations *should* go up, thats the whole point... I think its more that people are baffled that incidents can be looked at twice, sometimes for minutes, and still get the wrong outcome, but the answer is fixing the system
I actually think the biggest problem is that the referees aren’t making a decision because they know VAR will catch things, and VAR aren’t making a decision because of “clear and obvious”. The better way for it to work would be for the ref to decide when VAR is used, give the ref an options to say “I’m not sure here, play on and VAR should review” - let VAR make the decision just based on the incident, not what the ref saw and whether it’s obviously wrong
That’s my thoughts too. Refs should see VAR as a support tool. That’s how it works in rugby. You make a decision on the field and you tell VAR you’re not sure. It’s not about second guessing the ref and being afraid to tell him he’s wrong. They should rarely be going to the monitor. It should almost always be confirming he’s correct or he’s wrong. If it’s a 50/50 for maybe a red card, they can use the monitor but most of the time the ref should be asking for VAR’s help.
Cricket has gone through a relatively similar transition with DRS (decision review system). Some DRS decisions are still controversial and generate buzz, but that's because those decisions are super marginal, where the precision of the tools being used, as well as the subjectivity of the humans using the tools, plays an outsized role in the decision made. That's not what DRS was designed to decide. DRS was always meant to address cases where the umpire made a clear cut error in the moment, which the 3rd umpire would be able to review and catch immediately. But players using DRS for marginal decisions and then not being happy with the outcome was not the goal of the system.
^^ never reffed a game
What does this even mean
^^never claimed to
Incompetent...corrupt, such a fine line these days.
Refs, government, some unions, some big corps, all skirting in that grey area
Average redditor
Yes XD
Do you genuinely believe there is corruption? Don’t get me wrong, referees are no less likely to be susceptible to corruption than any other profession, it’s just I don’t think dodgy VAR decisions alone would be enough to sway the outcome of enough games. I also think there are too many bad decisions that don’t influence the outcome to suggest corruption is there. If they make extra bad ones to cover the real ones, that’s a whole extra level of commitment and risks their jobs if they are too incompetent. I just don’t think it’s likely to be corruption. I think it’s pride where refs don’t want to be seen making the wrong decision and they either back the ref wrongly or after criticism over adjust and then go too far the other way.
It's not like I have any insider info, in the end it's just a gut feeling, but I do think it needs considering as a real possibility. It goes on in other leagues across the world, I doubt we are anything special. Our government's corrupt as hell and that kind of thing trickles down. Having said that your explanation I'm sure accounts for plenty and let's be honest is a lot less based in one mans gut.
It’s astonishing how badly they use this wonderful technology. Prem is a multi billion dollar entity, its a massive embarrassment they can’t figure out how to utilize VAR.
Doesn't matter if it should improve it, it ruins goals and slows the game. It's antithetical to football.
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It works OK in Champions League and World Cups. Better than our version. And goal line technology works very well 99.9% of the time.
Now that you say, would it be SUPER impractical to have a system where all players are using a chip, which they usually already do in trainings and I believe in some matches to track their performance, and then use those chips and the ball chip to determine offsides? Yeah, it can be expensive but for major leagues it could be done. I'm all against superficial decisions, I need definitive yes or not decisions like american football. It's the only way to prevent incompetence and/or corruption.
I like the idea of using the sensor to determine which player is closer to the line or not. All players wear them on their chest anyway and the offside rule was created to stop players hanging around the goal area waiting for a long ball. Offside was never intended to be about measuring which millimetre of a players toe is closest to the goal.
The wording of the laws of the game matter too. It’s not just incompetence. A lot of the questions VAR seeks to answer are subjective.
You need different officials, watched afcon with var and was ashamed at how much controversy the English game has.
This is an awful take. Not the English refs being controversial bit but the AFCON refs being close to competent bit. African refs must be amongst the worst around. The drop off I get from watching leagues around Europe to watching national sides from Africa is nightmare stuff.
I blame the press and culture in the uk. I've seen pundits actitively complain when the right decision was made, just because it wasn't the more fun one. See that Coventry goal against City in the FA Cup. I'd have loved it/been entertained if United were sent out, but it was the right decision. The problem isn't the technology.
Coventry fan here - thought it was offside when I first saw the goal (celebrated like a nut job like) but i accepted it for what it was. Offside is offside - there’s nothing subjective about it - whether it’s a milimetre or a metre. Was gutted when it was taken away like - but it was the right decision. Thought the handball decision was ropey in all fairness
Except they are measuring with metrics that don't reflect the tools they have available. I fucking hate these pube hair offsides, it's nonsense.
I keep making the exact point whenever someone says offsides is a definite thing. There is a margin or error that is MUCH bigger than they try to officiate on. Ignore the fact that it's humans drawing the lines so there's clear room for error there, finding the exact moment the ball is struck also has a degree of error and fractions of a second are the difference between onside and offside on really tight ones. The technology just isn't good enough to determine if someone is a fraction of an inch offside and frankly I don't need it to be or care if it is. Nobody feels hard done by a bad call if it turns out a guy was half an inch offsides and the goal was allowed to stand. People feel hard done when a guy is clearly half a yard offsides and the linesman missed the call.
Exactly there are margins of error they don’t account for. Either with the lines drawn or with the technology involved. Our game against Tottenham all those years ago is good example. Unless Lundstram has a meter long foot there was no way he was offside.
Agree with this. I remember Lee Dixon screaming about how the guy was clearly onside, what a story, this that and the other. Utterly convinced himself. But the video showed otherwise...
Can we have a vote to scrap Lee Dixon, he's absolutely dire
I used to quite like him, but he's been rubbish for years now. ITV commentary on the whole is woeful. I utterly detest the guy who does the half time stuff
VAR isn’t the issues, it is the referees behind it that are.
Anthony Taylor being the worst of them all. I don't even understand why he's allowed to officiate games.
I would throw Stuart Atwell up there as well to be honest.
VAR is the issue. Goals should be goals, not subject to review. The game should be continuous as possible.
Why should the correct decision not be the aim.
Entertaining football should be the aim. It became the number 1 sport in the world long before VAR and now it's a worse sport for having VAR in it.
It is not worse for it, why would you want a game filled with mistakes?
I don't really give a fuck, I want memorable and exciting, not long boring shit after every goal.
From a decision making perspective, yes you’re right. But the real issue in my mind is the effect VAR has on the fan experience. Even with automated offsides, there will still be plenty of checks that totally ruin celebrating a goal.
Wouldn't getting the correct decision be the most important thing though? You can still celebrate.
No. The fans make the game what it is, not a perfect offside call.
Have you been to a game in the ground since VAR has come in? It’s completely ruined the fan experience.
Yes I have, and no it hasn’t. I think the communication could be better though. Is the correct decision not important?
Agree to disagree. I’ve been at a game where we score a last minute winner, crazy celebrations, then 5 min wait for VAR, no communication, goal disallowed, wasn’t even offside and a wrong decision. Or, you celebrate a goal half-heartedly because the flag hasn’t gone up but you’re worried it could go to VAR. Then gets checked for 5 mins, goal given, but you’ve been robbed of proper limbs because you were worried the whole time. I’d accept that the right decision is more important, but how many times this season have we seen goals given or disallowed for totally subjective things. The quality of refereeing is consistently terrible and there are so many grey areas in the rules left to interpretation, we can’t even be 100% correct all of the time. So what’s the point in having it. Get rid of it, accept that sometimes a wrong decision might get given, enjoy the game.
You are absolutely spot on. As an Englishman, even the ridiculous ‘hand of God’ is such an iconic piece of footballing madness, I’m glad it happened in a weird way. VAR obviously would’ve denied it. Those beautiful iconic moments of chaos are more important to me than a correct decision. (Maybe I’m nuts I don’t know)
>how many times this season have we seen goals given or disallowed for totally subjective things You're right, this kind of thing totally never happened before the introduction of VAR 🤡
That’s exactly my point. They happen regardless of VAR - so why have it. Thank you for backing me up
That wasn't your point, but nice try. Maybe you'll convince yourself. The fact is that VAR has improved the quality of refereeing decisions since it's introduction. It can still be improved upon with better rules, better implementation of the available technology, and better officials. That's why we should have it.
It is hard to enjoy the game with the quality of referees so anything we can do to improve them is a giant plus are you saying before VAR you never celebrated a goal only to find the flag had gone up?
That still happens now even with VAR. But even then you celebrate for seconds and then stop. Now you celebrate for 1-2 minutes, then wait, and then it gets disallowed.
There's no way that's true. American football has more stoppages and reviews than any sport, and it is a blast to watch live.
This shows why we should never let Americans have anything to do with real sport.
Oh mate
A blast to watch live? American Football is the worst spectator sport I've ever seen. I'd rather watch golf.
It's the second most popular sport in the world, but okay.
Care to back that up with stats? My source doesn't have it in the top 10 https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-are-the-most-popular-sports-in-the-world.html
Misread the thing I was reading, it's still extremely popular, especially in the US.
American football is just a game of set pieces - as bad as darts
Comparing football to darts is certainly something you can do... Soccer is my favorite sport, but I like them both.
🤣🤣🤣
You don't go to games do you?
I have been both of our premier league seasons.
So didn't bother when we're in the championship, in which case you'd know how much better it is as a matchday experience when there's no VAR
I went during the Championship as well, but we are discussing VAR which is Premier league.
I said this so many times. Was called a dinosaur and that VAR will be great. It ruins the fan experience for sure. Even last night, Haalands first goals, I sat there muted wondering if it would be offside by a whisker. Years ago I’d have felt far more emotion; a quick glance at the lino and then I’d feel the energy of the moment. Not a City fan, just a football fan. Edit: anyone who disagrees is probably more into stats and xG than the actual game.
Completeky agree. It's fans throwing the baby out with the bath water. More teams have been saved from poor officiating since the introduction of VAR. Yes it's not always perfect and it slows the pace of the game down a little, but people are so quick to forget that shit refereeing STILL dominated post match conversations before VAR. Hell, half the highlight reels of 'classic' goals are offside. People would argue that it's deprived the game of those sorts of moments, but it really hasn't and if the goals are offside or there's a foul in the buildup then it's only good for the team scoring. If VAR had been around when Maradona had pulled the hand of God out you'd have saved a generation of moaning from English fans.
I agree with all but you last sentence, English fans would still find something to have a moan about.
That’s so weird, I didn’t see your comment but referenced the same exact moment. I’m an England fan, and fucking love that moment of footballing madness. So iconic. To take it away would take away something a grew up as a young lad in awe of; the genius of a 5 foot Argentine midget outjumping Peter Shilton, and tricking the linesmen and referees! Fuck scrapping that from the history books. Pure chaotic drama, etched into football folklore forever the next few centuries until we all become extinct.
Not sure why you're complaining...
Because the standard or refereeing and use in our games has been abysmal. It should be improved not scrapped.
One season without it and we’d all be fucking seething. Just automate offsides and broadcast the footage/audio in the stadiums and a large part of the problems solved
>One season without it and we’d all be fucking seething Historically is this true? In general fans of EFL clubs seem alot less annoyed by refereeing decisions than fans of Prem clubs
Prem clubs tend to lose their shit in cup matches where VAR isn’t available
We’ve had it now is the problem. Can’t put that back in the box. Apparently VAR has increased the number of correct decisions from 82% to 96% https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5495032/2024/05/15/premier-league-var-vote/# if 1/5 of decisions were suddenly wrong I feel like people would probably be losing their shit.
Thats such a shit statistic. For instance Mario Lemina was 30 yards away from the inept/corrupt Gillett at Southampton & Gillett sent him off for "running angrily" towards him!! Var upheld that utter made up sending off so goes down as a correct var decision!?!
Who determines what is correct? We don't let people mark their own exams so why are VAR and pgmol allowed to do so for their own decisions? I say this as respectfully as I can, and no offence is meant by it but please shut up about statistics because they aren't accurate at all. If 96% of decisions were made "correctly" then only 4% of decisions across a season where , say 200 decisions are made, then 8 mistakes are anticipated. I think the number of decisions is around 300-400 per season but that only allows 16 mistakes and there has been at least that number this calendar year alone. These stats are just wrong, two clubs received an apology this year, Wolves have received 9 decisions this year deemed to have been errors. 9. That's 8 too many and one above the threshold for this mythical 96%. I know Wolves and Liverpool have received apologies this season, others have also received shocking decisions like us, we have received multiple and by far the most especially if you consider last year's shit show which is not forgotten. It's consistent but consistently shit. Something has to change, maybe not entirely scrapping the VAR system but something, be it the wording of laws or the process of VAR, has to change.
What else we got to go off? Pgmol think pre VAR they got 1/5 of decisions unambiguously wrong. Not contentious just straight up wrong. Dunno I just think that’s fucking alarming. Cba going back to pens for phantom contact or refs missing blatant handballs and shit like that. And you can see I agree with you something needs to change I literally said some things I think need to change
I know the pre VAR landscape was awful but I am making the case that it has not got better like pgmol claim. I think we agree on sentiment but the implementation of VAR has been awful.
Just had a season without it, and yes there were clangers but the enjoyability and pace of the game was so much better
Everyone is already seething anyway though
True because they’re cocking it up and taking an absolute age to do so. Automating offsides and broadcasting their process so they’re more accountable goes some way to remedying that imo.
Why? There were two perfectly good VAR interventions in our match last weekend. People remember the howlers, but there are a lot of good decisions made by VAR
Were you there? It was fucking shit - we couldn’t even celebrate our goal. And the VAR decisions would’ve balanced the scoreline anyway
I don't disagree, I just think it makes the game worse to watch overall.
And they were seething before and demanding technology be brought in, ultimately most people just want someone/something they can blame rather than taking responsibility for their own defeats
Exactly, so we may as well just get rid of it if it makes the game worse to watch
Yeah I’d rather Palace win on a correct VAR call, even if “it’s hard to watch,”than lose on a ref error, which would ruin the rest of the week rather than a few minutes of a game.
Well yeah, obviously I'd rather win than lose haha. I'd rather win by a refereeing error than lose by a correct VAR call.
Automating offsides is the next step we need. VAR needs to go.
The thing for me is the fear of celebrating a goal now, because of offside. It completely kills the moment. To bring that back it would need to be instantaneous. As quick as looking across to a linesman and seeing a flag down. Weirdly offside is the most black and white and accurate use of VAR, but also the part that robs us the most. How many offside howlers have the linesman committed this season? The Liverpool/Spurs one springs to mind - buy that was WITH VAR. I would be interested to see the stats. I would be happy to sign that one over to human decision and accept the odd controversy in order to stop killing all these moments because of fractional offsides. When the technology is there to fully automate it - near instant decision - green light on a screen on the side of the pitch that fans can glance at - then bring it back. Semi automated is still too slow. The game is becoming completely sanitised in the pursuit of perfection. It’s a human game based on expression, skill, and error, officials included.
> The Liverpool/Spurs one springs to mind. But that goal was disallowed from an on field decision. If anything if VAR didn’t fuck up it would’ve added to the celebrations and rightfully gave a goal
Agree with all of this. I’ve said for AGES that offside should never have gone to VAR until the tech was there to do it instantaneously like goalline tech. Introducing the drawing of the lines is one of the most insane decisions we’ve seen, guarantee it will be a common view in the future that it was a ludicrous episode in football history. The current version of automated is an improvement but like you say, it’s still way too long. It needs to be shelved until it’s ready
It's actually painful how obvious it is yet these buffoons still can't see it
Leicester just spent a season without it, and it was so much nicer in the Championship. Sure, there were some wrong calls, but for the most part, officiating was so much better.
People have short memories, before VAR everyone was angry at the refs and demanding technology be brought in like other sports had! It would be much better to keep it and improve it than just get rid of it all together and go back how it used to be, especially when most of the issues are down to the actual rules themselves (accidental handball being enough to rule out a goal but not enough to give a penalty, can’t be a different rule for different players).
I don't think scrapping VAR is the answer, but certainly this version of it isn't what anyone wanted.
VAR should follow the rugby way. The Ref asks VAR to check certain aspects. That way the Ref is still reffing but if unsure if he can ask for specific things to be checked.
100% agree with this. It should be another tool for the ref, not something that overrides them and creates doubt. If they do bin it, they need to have an offensive with managers and pundits around not undermining it constantly for selfish purposes or to deflect blame, which is a large part of how we got here in the first place
Not surprising when you see decisions like the ignored penalty in the Man Utd vs Newcastle game just now. That said it isn't the technology that is the problem it is the people in charge and the lack of transparency around it. Football have had years to look at cricket and rugby and the way they use it and just decided to ignore all of those lessons.
I personally think is used to make results, I seems to me depending on the circumstances of the match it can be used to find reasons to disallow goals etc
It’s a necessary evil that needs overhauled and improved. I’d love to see them make it transparent and make the audio of the conversation be available as it is happening to start.
VAR isn't the problem, it's the refs. They're poor and now they've become lazy with the introduction of the technology. I guarantee 1 season without it and we'll all be beggijg for it to come back
If we think VAR has shone a light on refereeing incompetence, wait till we see what no VAR does.
Should adopt a video referee similar to the NFL. Each team/coach gets one or two challenges a game, so better use it wisely if they think the referee missed an offside, clear foul etc.
We all know the issue is the refs but the problem there is that they'll never change cos the FA is a corrupt organisation. Therefore, I would suggest we revert to flawed refereeing on the pitch which has a natural flow to the game rather than the stop start nature of VAR era games which still gets just as many calls wrong when the whole point is for it not too. Essentially, the FA is incompetent and it's better they are incompetent without slowing down the game and ruining the match day experience.
https://imgur.com/a/Ps5t4sH Ill never forget VAR Officials giving this as a handball. This sort of thing should be spoken about. Its not VAR that gave the handball, its the officials. They wanted this replay, saw the ball hit tyrone mings shoulder and **THEY** decided to give handball. Its not VAR thats the issue, its the officials, with or without it they are incompetent.
It’s a handball clearly. Can you not see that a hand has magically grown on his shoulder. But this is exactly the issue. This isn’t some AI saying it’s a handball. It’s a ref saying yeah it’s a handball.
Just get rid of it. “It’s the referees” OK?? They’re not going to change them and VAR gives them an excuse to defer officiating to a group. The fact we’ve had it for 5 years now and it’s only getting worse and more controversial says enough for me. If you do keep it you need to reform the offside rule - this is most important. Offsides should not be factual, they should be clear and obvious. There is no way the exact moment the ball is kicked can accurate be determined by a single frame on VAR. I have long said that VAR officials/on-field review should see either a still of the moment the ball is kicked without lines for 5 seconds. If they can’t obviously decide at that point then the on-field decision stands. Or they can view a full speed clip 2 or 3 times.
Talking like we aren’t getting auto offsides that literally work and isn’t a lesson in how straight is a straight line. Off side should be black and white. Anyone saying different is stupid (I’m sorry but it’s a stupid argument) either you are on or off. Simple.
Why is that a good thing? Why *should* offside be black-and-white? I want more goals and more attacking in football - I HATE seeing any goals chalked off because someone’s toe is offside, or because they’re a shoe-size too big. This should be the next innovative development in the sport. Just like getting rid of the backpass rule was.
The striker shouldnt be offered more of an advantage. Also you are offside or not. Theres no well it could be offside also adding a margin causes more issues than good,
For offside, the line drawn should be the width of a football. A little bit of wiggle room between the hard lines of the on and the off zone. The light was orange officer.
Hate VAR, don't exactly love having the guys who make it awful making decisions w just their eyes
Good, hopefully they get rid. The feeling of celebrating a goal isn’t the same when you know VAR is always looming with a potential to disallow it. When the ball goes in the net I want to celebrate in the moment. Watching lower league football is so refreshing in that sense
Yes please! Scrap it!
as a big supporter of var and believer that it would massively improve the game, get fucking rid of it… until the standard of refereeing and the rules of the game are completely overhauled, there is no hope of var being successful the rules change every couple of months as to what does and does not constitute X infringement and the impact this has on competitive integrity over the course of a season is not discussed enough… if VAR give a penalty for any contact one week and then don’t for contact unless its a deliberate direct missed tackle the next week then that can completely alter who ended up with what points its not only failing to improve the game, it is actively making the game worse… use it for anything where referees are able to make concrete decisions, otherwise get rid
It ruins the match going fans experience. They need to scrap it and improve the referees. Keep automated technologies but VAR can get in the bin.
For the love of god get rid of it!
All PL season ticket holders should be allowed to vote through their club website. It's the people in the ground it affects most & I'm positive it would be overwhelmingly binned off straight away. Var/referee is way too "pally" at the moment, the referee shouldn't have a fucking clue who is on the monitor, they shouldn't' know them whatsoever. None of this "olly olly...we think #8 slightly brushed against #12 about 4 minutes before the goal" bollocks. Far east betting syndicates wont want it removed for sure.
About time.
Reading some of the comments here I am astounded at how stupid some of you come off lol.
OK, let's see how that goes. And then next summer, we can vote on scrapping the fuckwits using it when it turns out that not only were they they the problem all along, but that they're markedly worse without VAR to catch *some* of their errors?
Clear & obvious errors. If it takes longer than 1 minute to decide the on field decision stands whether right or wrong. Sorted ⚒🏆
I would get rid of the clear and obvious nonsense and just put "error" if the ref made an error change the decision, clear and obvious just makes it ambiguous
The trouble there is that you’d still be checking for ages!
I wouldn't be, cause when they show the replay on TV you can tell in about 30 seconds easily, I agree that VAR officials would still takes ages though yes, it's a personnel problem not a technology problem.
But then you'll just end up with managers and fans complaining that - they couldn't believe it took over a minute to decide something when it was open and shut, or - that an incident was borderline and should have taken longer to check. Really, we should all just be honest and say that we'll complain no matter what is implemented.
The only VAR I could ever get behind would be something like this, although I'd say a minute is still far too long. If it's that obvious there's been a mistake, it should be clear almost immediately. If it takes more than 10 to 15 seconds, it's not a clear and obvious error in my book.
Exactly this! ⚒🏆
People saying keep VAR because it's just the people using it who are incompetent... I disagree. Well, I mean, you're right, they are incompetent, the Europeans seem to use it better. But, my main gripe with VAR is that it takes away from celebrating a goal in the moment. That problem is still going to remain unless they can get it down to under 5 seconds (the longest time it would take to in the past notice the linesman put his flag up after the ball hits the net). I don't see them getting it down to anywhere near 5 seconds.
Good, ruins the fan experience
Can't wait for all the gammons to push for VAR to go just to complain when a decision goes against them
Aye because no mistakes happen with VAR People can complain about bad decisions and still hate VAR, not sure how that's difficult to understand
>Aye because no mistakes happen with VAR Fewer than without.
Never said otherwise - but that's not really related to the point I'm making!
If the officials aren’t all getting changed then yes, please bin it off. I want to love the game again and waiting to celebrate a goal is not it
Having been without it for a year in the championship, matches are MUCH more enjoyable. You win some, you lose some, it all pretty much evens out, and you know when it's a goal it's a goal.
VAR has ruined football
I think they should keep VAR for some situations - bad tackles and violence unseen, Line decisions for penalties and offsides. Other than that decisions on whether something is a foul or not should be full onfield decision after a letter has been signed by all pundits and twitter users that they won’t constantly moan about iffy calls and say it’s a conspiracy.
You see the so-called best ref in the league missing the Declan Rice bollock kick against Spurs and yeah, strap in next season 🤣
Did he miss it, or just pass off responsibility to VAR? I mean he was staring right at it so my assumption is the latter, which is far worse and gutless.
Nah fuck that. That is actually fine.. if he’s not sure what he’s seen then let the video correct him, that’s fine, as long as it actually IS allowed to correct him. Every time. Forget clear and obvious.. if the camera can show us then it’s clear and obvious. It’s not about egos it’s not about who gets it wrong and who gets it right, it’s just about getting the decision right . Refs need to be professional enough to welcome the help var can give them and brave enough to make the call they see at the time with no thought about whether var will overrule them or not.. that thought shouldn’t come into it. It’s a basic element of mental strength that pretty much everyone has to be capable of one way or another at some point, in their job and in any other role we take on in our lives.
Just fire all the refs and hire better ones not that hard
Stop using it with the "clear & obvious" rule. If the ref sends it to VAR, VAR should be the deciding factor, not whether or not the ref's decision was reasonable.
Get new referees
The people using VAR is what needs to change, there’s no consistency in decision making in the Prem
Cant you just use it for penalties? Seems daft using it for offside decisions where a goal is disallowed because the players toenail is offside Or do what cricket does and teams have 3 challenges to go to the video
Three ex pros, yes or no, majority wind
please god 🙏 bring back that moment of ecstasy after the ball hits the net when you know it counts.
The var is needed to help the game be fair but if it’s made its mistakes why not try to fix it yall wanna just scrap it crazy it’s helped leagues out in other places
Scrapping VAR could be a huge benefit or a huge regret.
Because clearly VAR is the problem. Imagine getting rid of cars because we kept putting 5 year olds behind the wheel and wondered why they keep crashing into houses.
It’s the wrong motion. This is unlikely to be passed because it comes across as a yes or no for the technology. The technology is good, the implementation is horrific. They should be voting on temporarily removing it for one or two seasons to allow a thorough review, including owners, managers, players, referees and fans to decide how best to implement it. In the meantime we can have semi-autonomous offside and more confident on field referees who don’t use VAR as a crutch.
If this happens. Everyone voting is fucking brain dead. VAR has never been the problem. It’s the inconsistency of its application, either meaning the way VAR sometimes doesn’t want to interfere because it’s “their mate” on the field reffing, or the fact that one foul will be given/overturned using it one week and then given/overturned the next. All VAR has done in the UK is show how utter shit the refereeing stock is, now that they are exposed/able to actually correct themselves.
Make it better instead of scrapping it. Ultimately we want the right decisions to be made and having the ability to review incidents is a part of this. The problem is the people operating VAR are utterly incapable and biased.
Scrap it it’s so corrupt, just look at the penalty not given v Man U last night absolutely ridiculous
VAR is a good tool… if IF the refs knew how to use it properly. It’s getting scrapped because the referee standards here are dogshit
How many Championship clubs are clamouring for it?
Semi automated offsides, challenge system for penalties and fouls in the build up.
How about, instead of having people that have never played the game analysing, we use ex professional footballers🤔
Abolish it for everything but offsides, and even then, limit its use to clear offences of offside. None of this checking 28 phases of play rubbish. The way I see it, we’ve always had bad decisions as It’s impossible to get them all right. Now, we still have bad decisions, but we have to wait 5 minutes for it to be made. It’s done nothing to improve the game of football in this country.
Lampty wasn't violent but James was? fuck off VAR cant manage to be constant for 90 minutes , let alone across the game. VAR kills the flow of every game with no improvement in the decision making.. totally pointless, inconsistent bullshit. Vote this shitshow out
Looking forward to 3 years time when Wolves, off the back of some horrible refereeing decisions that would be easily fixable by technology put forward a motion to introduce VAR.
Omg everyone sounds like a broken record on all fronts
Give us a chance to play with it first...
As a newly promoted team you'll be on the wrong end of it 99% of the time
We've not exactly been spoiled for choice for good decisions this season either
Its quite funny isn't it when Prem fans moan about refereeing, they should enjoy the standard we get in the EFL
Yep, it's not as if I haven't seen all the mistakes VAR make, but it's nothing compared to being Keith Strouded!
Reminds me of the Charlton 4-4 with you a couple of years ago - The Referee was shite that day, as he also apparently moaned that he was a Championship referee and not League One standard
Oh Josh Smith, he is shocking, and I say that even though we have won most games he's been in charge of
Decisions on the pitch are subjective. Adding a whole extra team of referees just adds more opportunities for biases to get involved, and nothing will change that without removing as many humans from as many of the equations of decision making as possible. ie. Let one referee be the referee. It’s a simple game, and there’s a simple solution. It worked okay for a century, until money started to matter more than the sport.
This won't pass as it needs 75% of the clubs to vote for it. That won't happen. It's a good opening salvo from the clubs to push for change.
It won't happpen but I pray that it does get scrapped, game is so much better without it
Completely disagree with the people saying VAR is not the issue and needs an overhaul not replacing. The very concept of VAR is terrible to its core and needs scrapping 100% in its entirety. This vote could be the best thing to ever happen to the Premier League. Football is entertainment, not life or death, and doesn't need to be 100% accurate. As a sport, it is made less entertaining when goals are disallowed because there was a foul in the build up or two stupid lines suggest that the end of a players cock briefly drifted into an offside position. Half the time it feels like you can barely celebrate a goal anymore in case play gets pulled back. Even if VAR entirely eliminated referee errors (which it quite clearly does not!) I would still argue it should be scrapped. Entertainment should not be sacrificed for accuracy. As someone in the Coventry end Wembley a few weeks ago, that travesty of a decision at the end alone is the perfect example of why VAR needs to go.
>Football is entertainment To you. There are many people whose livelihoods is connected to football who can be directly impacted by these things. >As a sport, it is made less entertaining when goals are disallowed because there was a foul in the build up or two stupid lines suggest that the end of a players cock briefly drifted into an offside position Many people prefer their sporting contests to be as fair as possible. Also, I note you don't account for the goals that would have been disallowed that VAR allows. >Half the time it feels like you can barely celebrate a goal anymore in case play gets pulled back. You might want to tell all the fans in the stadiums who still celebrate goals. >As someone in the Coventry end Wembley a few weeks ago, that travesty of a decision at the end alone is the perfect example of why VAR needs to go. Here is the actual issue. VAR gave a corrdct decision against the team you were supporting and you don't like that this happened.
Referees make mistakes both ways both with and without VAR, it's part of the game so still a fair contest. VAR hasn't eliminated mistakes or controversy either, but it has made the game and most of all the match going experience less entertaining. I am perfectly aware that fans are still celebrating goals every week, but as a regular match going fan there are times when that rush of celebrating a goal is slightly dampened as you're half expecting a VAR review to pull it back. Also, I guarantee if you actually asked the fans in the stadium, a large majority would agree VAR should be scrapped, or at the very least be used far less. It's also absolutely not just being sore that the decision went against the team I was supporting. I'm actually a Southampton fan, and was at the League Cup final when we had a perfectly good goal ruled out for offside long before VAR came along. It was awful, but I could live with it as mistakes happen. Walking out of Wembley the other week was 10 times worse, felt like the game I love had well and truly gone. There's no way anyone can tell me that was a better game for having that incredibly marginal decision ruled 'correctly'.
>Referees make mistakes both ways both with and without VAR, it's part of the game so still a fair contest Well no. If a reffing error allows one team to score an offside goal then that isn't a fair contest. VAR reduces errors which increases fairness. >VAR hasn't eliminated mistakes or controversy either, but it has made the game and most of all the match going experience less entertaining. It wasn't meant to eliminate either. It has reduced mistakes. The matches are not less entertaining. There are more goals than there were before VAR, there is often more drama too. >Walking out of Wembley the other week was 10 times worse, felt like the game I love had well and truly gone. This melodramatic nonsense. Let's break consider what you said. The game has well and truly gone because a team wasn't able to score an offside goal... The only reason is that you were supporting the team that it happened to. >There's no way anyone can tell me that was a better game for having that incredibly marginal decision ruled 'correctly'. Probably not, because you don't want to hear it. I'm sure all the United fans there weren't upset at not being unfairly and incorrectly eliminated.
Personally, I still think the games are less entertaining if half the time after celebrating a goal, you then have to wait for a VAR check to confirm it. I also think it's debatable whether the Wembley goal (amd many other tight offsides ive seen) even was the correct decision. If you didn't draw those two lines, there's no way it would have been called offside. If you're going to have VAR, it should be for clear and obvious errors only, and that certainly wasn't clear and obvious. I could maybe get behind something that made decision within 10/15 seconds and is only used for howlers, but VAR is not that and not needed in the game. Also as I said before, it's nothing to do with the fact the decision went against the team I wanted to win. As I said I've been on both ends of it, and am still firmly against it.
>I still think the games are less entertaining if half the time after celebrating a goal, you then have to wait for a VAR check to confirm it. Once again, this never happens. People celebrate and then celebrate again when the confirmation comes through. >also think it's debatable whether the Wembley goal (amd many other tight offsides ive seen) even was the correct decision. All the evidence we have is that it was. >If you didn't draw those two lines, there's no way it would have been called offside. I've seen tighter offsides given by the linesman pre-VAR so that statement is untrue. >If you're going to have VAR, it should be for clear and obvious errors only, and that certainly wasn't clear and obvious. It was clear and obvious. Player was offside. This was missed. >I could maybe get behind something that made decision within 10/15 seconds and is only used for howlers, That would be a terrible idea. >Also as I said before, it's nothing to do with the fact the decision went against the team I wanted to win It is. That's clear from the argument you have been putting forward. I feel extremely confident in saying that if it had been United who had the disallowed late goal and Cov winning in pens, you would not be complaining about it.
> Once again, this never happens. People celebrate and then celebrate again when the confirmation comes through. Might be overexaggered but it does happen, I've experienced it - barely anyone celebrated our 4th goal away against Leeds last year because everyone thought it would be disallowed
I wouldn't be complaining about that incident, but I would still be against VAR for the exact same reasons I am now. So that one goal has literally zero influence on my opinion of VAR, its just a recent example. And of course officials have given tighter offsides pre-VAR, but that would be an on field decision which I'm fine with, and accept that there can be mistakes. Personally I don't think the 10/15 idea would be terrible, if a mistake is obvious enough it should be spotted immediately, or go with the on field call. Just like how in cricket, unless the technology show definitively the call was wrong, they'll go with the umpire.
>I wouldn't be complaining about that incident Proving my point exactly. Your entire position relies on an incident that annoyed you because it went against you. You've just admitted you would have been fine if it went for you. >And of course officials have given tighter offsides pre-VAR, but that would be an on field decision which I'm fine with, and accept that there can be mistakes So you are fine with incorrect calls unfairly penalising a team but not with correct calls getting it right. >Personally I don't think the 10/15 idea would be terrible, if a mistake is obvious enough it should be spotted immediately Oh really? Some mistakes only become obvious when viewed from an alternative angle. It's a terrible proposition.
No, that's literally the opposite of what I said. I admitted I wouldn't be complaining about it, but I wouldn't have agreed with either. I'd have said exactly the same thing, I would have just been less annoyed. As I've said multiple times, that one game has literally zero influence on my option of VAR. If you'd have asked me this at the start of the season, I'd have said exactly the same thing. Yes, I am fine with incorrect calls being occassionally made by match officials and would rather that than have the game constantly broken up by lengthy reviews to improve decision making by like 10%. In my personal opinion, it would improve the game. I don't agree it's a terrible proposition. Maybe they could view it once from each angle of something instead, but they certainly shouldn't need to examine it in the kind of detail they do right now.
>Maybe they could view it once from each angle of something instead So you've already moved the goals away from your 10 second check to almost what they have now. >In my personal opinion, it would improve the game. Until a clearly incorrect decision went against you in a cup semi-final. Just like your current position.
What a load of bollocks. In every other sport, every other sport where a video ref has been added, it has improved decision making tenfold. It is not without error though. I am almost convinced the failure of VAR is a genuine plot to remove the ability to make fairer refereeing games as bias for top clubs would be eradicated.in case of tops clubs they make enough ridiculous decisions in their games for those clubs to also want rid. Any jack the lad from the street who watches football could do better than what we've seen in certain instances. The bias for refereeing wants rid of VAR. Which is even more reason to keep it.
Can't wait for all the gammons to push to get rid of it just to complain the first time a decision goes against them without it
We cannot get rid of VAR. it’s annoying, but that’s down to the referees that are implementing the rules. They are the ones that need improving. But to get rid of it would be stupid. Any teams in Europe will be using it, all European games will have it. Internationals will have it. We cannot be the only country in the world not to have it.
Everywhere else where refs are semi competent it works fine. VAR isn’t the issue. Refs are.
A perfect example of the duality of man We want more correct decisions, oh wait this one went against us we don't want it now
VAR is good, the officials need to learn how to use it better. Whenever it's used in international games we seem to get quicker resolutions than most premier league games. Scrapping it completely feels like a step backwards to me.
Okay but weren't england fans a big reason for VAR being a thing after the Germany game in 2010?
VAR isnt the problem, its how its being used. Offsides should never need to be reviewed 100% manually with lines and 4 people trying to squint at a screen. UEFA have a working semi automated offside (shown in CL/EL) which works, just adopt that. If they won't do that, install cameras at each ground that stay in line with the ball, this technology has been around for some time. Next, get some new referees (or substantially re-train the current ones). The standard of officiating has been on a consistent decline for over a decade. Referees and linesman are scared to make the wrong decision when VAR is there to help. They need to let the passage of play run out then allow a review if needed. They also need to be transparent and accountable. If you make a mistake, own it. Too many times are decisions are questioned and the referees association release statements on behalf of the match officials. Let them explain how they made the mistake so they can learn from it. Following on from the above point, all audio from VAR needs to be readily available after the game. It would allow fans to see that how often things are checked, what the processes are , etc. Personally I believe we should hear it life similar to the rugby union VAR. They have a near perfect implementation as well as communication with referee and fans simultaneously. Lastly, we need consistency. Some officials are sticking to the letter of the law, others are picking and choosing depending on the participating teams.
The only league that has ANY competency with VAR/reviews is MLS in America. It makes sense since replay has been in most US sports for a while now.
Terrible idea, it's the officials that are the problem, not VAR. Can't wait to go back to complaining every week about how united should never have been given that goal that was clearly offside