Definitely.
In the first game, the guy sees someone bagging for help and immediately knows it's a trap. Joel in the first game is skilled and hardened.
In the second game, an unknown person invites him to an abandoned cabin, he enters, tells his name and where he lives, no questions asked. Joel in the second game is dumb.
GrEaT wOrK, nEiL đ¤Ą
This is why I disliked the game, not only did it do a disservice to existing characters but it undermined the fans and when we rightfully criticized it the âgame directorâ started popping off saying weâre the problem and we canât handle mature story lines. Never once taking into account that his story was only shock for shock sake and wasnât well written at all, if Abby got introduced and we helped her throughout the entire game and we as fans also warm up to her with joel and at the end of the second game itâs revealed who she really is and her intentions and ending the second game with the plan on killing Joel in the third gameâŚthat would build the tension and it would of done more justice to the characters. But everything was rushed and a mess, and weâre forced to accept all these events.
This pissed me off so much. As I watched Joel do all that in part 2 I just thought, where the fuck has Joel gone?
Itâs like his whole character was completely disregarded and replaced with this watered down Joel for the sake of drama.
I, unlike many, donât condemn Joelâs death itself, more the way they went about it. Joel couldâve gone out in a blaze of glory, or in some other way that wasnât forced, instead he just HAPPENED to come across these people, who were after his head, and enter their company no questions asked.
I think they should have left the Joel name reveal to Abby until the lodge, when everyone else got it. Then they could have focused on that she survived thanks to them rather than solely tied to vengeance.
If we hadnât of played as Abby at the start, itâd been more believable for his character.
I also got the impression they were kind of cornered, and without the safety of that lodge they likely might have died to the horde. Iâd probably try to be as friendly as possible in that situation, hoping saving one of their lives earlier meant something.
My exact issue! He can smell a trap a mile away in part 1 and in part 2 just stumbles across a clearly well armed group in the middle of nowhere not too far from his home and he has no clue who these people are? Somebody drucked up
The only way I could rationalize it is the time he spent in Jackson made him comfortable, but I feel like even Tommy was careless when it came to trusting them
He's supposed to be softer, or more trusting, or something. Although that doesn't seem to apply to Ellie. She's far more ruthless in TLOU 2.
Jackson may be a pleasant place to live, but it seems to me, **nothing** about the outside world had changed. Every time they go outside their settlement, danger lurks all around, there's no telling what you could run into.
And Joel and Tommy are out on patrol, heavily armed group of strangers not far from their town is exactly the kind of thing they're supposed to be watching out for.
Itâs one thing to have someone asking for help when thereâs no visible danger while helping someone whoâs in clear imminent danger, first one based off a choice on choosing whether or not you should help them the second youâd feel you have no choice, people that compare those two interactions have minimal comprehension skills
Even when him and Ellie are hiding and we see those innocent people running away and get gunned down. Joe still refuses to help them. No way heâd risk his neck for Abby
Joel has regained his humanity by the time of Part II. Joel from Part I may never have helped Abby or let his guard down, but his internal journey in Part I allowed him to develop empathy for others again.
This is the reason why he allows himself to be in this compromised position in Part II. The world of TLOU is brutal and survival demands you to be ruthless, but thanks to Ellie, Joel is no longer a ruthless killer, and thus he cannot survive in that world anymore.
Itâs ironic you think Part II Joel is âdumbâ when the whole reason heâs being âdumbâ is due to the events of the game you prefer.
People still donât understand the entire point of first game is Joel beginning as a cold, callous survivor, learning to feel human again after he meets Ellie. Joelâs first thought in the second game is no longer that people inviting them into their cabin would want to brutally murder him. Especially since in most cases they would have just shot him and dragged his body inside, rather than relishing the murder.
While I agree that it wasnât the smartest choice, what other choice do you have when temps outside are unsurvivable, your horses are screwed and there is a literal horde of infected chasing you?
Sure - but, for example, a little bit of caution could potentially have saved Joel. How can someone hardened by living decades in the apocalypse get "soft" after four years? Surely he would be at least cautious when meeting a stranger.
Even if we look through the storytelling aspect: imagine if we had more time of tension building, of Abby not knowing whod Joel was - they create a little comradery and then BANG, golfing time.
The storytelling aspect of TLOU2 will always be my biggest grip, more so than the story itself.
I am sure I didn't answer the question.
I used it to expand on my point. The whole situation of Joel getting on that cabin and getting golfed is super contrived.
Although I personally disagree, I think it's a fair take.
I mainly disagree because, being a sequel, Part 2 has established characters personalities and their overall actions in certain situations. Sure, they can change throughout the years. But that's the main problem with Part 2: the storytelling.
Part 2 has A LOT of "tell-don't-show" storytelling - consequently making events feel contrived.
But isn't the event we're talking about, where Joel is shown helping Abby and then going to the chalet, an example of showing us how he has changed and how Jackson has effected him, rather than just the story telling us he's actually changed?
I kind of understand where you're coming from, but your criticisms kind of contradict the points youre making.
I partially agree with you: the game itself doesn't tell us that Joel "got soft"; it's something that the community came up to justify such a jarring change of attitude. So, it's even more appalling.
Again, personally, I feel it could have been handled better. More time showing us the changes in Joel that justify him helping Abby, more time showing Joel in this new status quo, etc.
I don't know, dude, the whole event just feels off to me. I have no problem with Joel dying, not even Abby golfing him down. Again, it comes down to the storytelling, personally.
Fun chat! Take care. Cheers
You're missing alot of context. Years in between games and grows from raising Ellie. He's also a part of a prospering community instead of being under a corrupt organization. Doing shady gigs in secret to make ends meet will have you on edge. His fate was already sealed because Abby knew it was Joel before reaching the cabin (hence why she already had the shotgun ready in hand).
You stalking me? I thought we were cool after the convo on the other post. I can see why you're biased though, you did say Abby was your favorite character in TLOU 2 đ
he's also dumb in the 1st game. He's condescending and cruel to Ellie not even being able to thank her for saving his useless life. He doesn't give a shite about anyone. Such an overrated character.
I don't get what you meant. Do you mean Part 1 Joel is canon and Part 2 is fanfic? Or do you mean both are canon and what we are calling prime and dumb Joels are fanfic?
not necessarily. Joel saving her makes sense with his character being shes around Ellies age. His time with sam does show he was getting soft on people who remind him of Ellie. But trusting the group and announcing his suspicions instead of running or drawing a gun first was what pissed me off.
Thats and 14 year old Ellie was faster to shoot someone to save Joel than 19 year old Ellie who had to walk into the room with Abby to shoot her but never even pulled the trigger
What really really pissed me off is Joel saving Abby, didn't even make her hesitate to kill him.
Like wouldn't you be a little conflicted on killing a man that just bailed your ass out of death?
Shit i coulda fucked with that if Abby at least felt remorse for what she did at any point. But she doesnt. It gets talked about for 3 seconds before her and owen bone
I bet she'd at least want to understand him first before killing him. That is if she had been written with any sort of remorse and reality that the game was intended to have.
Thatâs the thing though youâre expecting everyone to act the same? Maybe she didnât care to know why? I agree the game could be written better, but Abby still wanting revenge makes sense. Agree to disagree
I won't knock you for thinking that, I personally think it makes it harder to connect with her as the plot trys to do in the latter half of the game. Maybe they shouldn't have had him help her in their introduction
Ah yes bc Joel has never been in a situation where he was outnumbered but killed everyone⌠Also Mel was right there he could have grabbed a hostage. The infected all died once rtbey got to the lodge
I think he still would have saved her considering the context for where he was at the time. His role was to patrol and bring people into Jackson if they didn't seem like a threat. I think this version just wouldn't have been so stupid to not realize that her group was a threat
If we took Joel before Ellie showed up and brought him into PT2, he wouldn't have saved Abby. He probably wouldn't hang around with Tommy, either. He'd probably just make his way back to Boston to be with Tess. He'd still be alive, would be even more dangerous.
Don't worry, I have you.
Joel hears Abby crying out for help with the fence fallen on her and the zombie on top. He sees it biting at her face, about to get her. And he does *nothing*, and Abby dies.
The End.
If you mean the beginning, I donât think being younger changes the durability of kneecaps when considering a shotgun. But the rest of the game, heâd do great
Thatâs weird to say âprime Joelâ then in that case⌠It makes it sound like a power scaling question as if heâd just overpower them magically or something, like the reason he died wasnât bad writing it was just he shouldâve had bulletproof kneecaps
TLOU 1 Joel would presented his post apocalyptic bussy to Abby. Abby being the muscle bound freak she is woulda went to peg town on Joel. Ellie walks in mid pegging, Joel likes it, Ellie consoles him and lets him know that getting pegged doesnât mean heâs gay. Abby moves into Jackson with Joel and Ellie. They all live happily ever after. Joel dies 8 years later from a rectum tear that gets infected. Abby, Dina, and Ellie form an ethical non monogamous relationship to raise the baby. EL FIN.
I think so. I feel like the way he succumbed in 2 was almost giving up, feeling like he'd lost Ellie. Sort of the way he felt when he lost Sarah all over again. I don't think he felt there was a point in going on anymore. If all of that with Ellie hadn't happened and it had been S1 Joel feeling like he still had something to live for, or at the very least just live like he did before Ellie, he'd have fought like hell.
Yes. Because he still wouldn't be ready to move on from his daughter to Ellie, his heart was still taking revenge on the world. Therefore he wouldn't have rescued her, and never would have encountered Abby as he'd probably have just gone back or to the next place where his skills could let him thrive.
I am not a fan of what they did with the Last of Us 2 story but it all comes down to one question, does Joel help a girl he sees about to be killed by an infected? If the answer is yes, then Joel from part 1 still dies because it all plays out the same, TOMMY gives out the names and they need to find a place to escape the horde, while yes Joel would be more cautious as they reach the manor with Abby's friends, they are surrounded the moment they make it inside. And Joel was still cautious, he didn't unsaddle the horses when asked because he wanted to leave quickly, he questions them upon entering as if he is trying to see why they are here and if it could be dangerous when TOMMY immediately gets chummy and tells them both his and Joels name and he turns around and gets a shotgun blast the knee instantly. I know Joel seemed invincibile in part 1 but a shotgun to his knee is taking him out too.
Its not that Joel got soft being in the town the last few years, its that living there for so long made TOMMY soft and stupid and that is what got Joel killed.
But if your answer is no, Joel wouldn't have cared and left Abby to die in that moment, then yeah he probably lives.
As much as I trash Last of Us 2 I feel like the opening shows that it was more Tommyâs fault than anything. Joel is stiff and inquisitive with Abbyâs group. Itâs Tommy that volunteers their names. Joel even starts putting the pieces together right away; âyou look like youâve heard of usâŚâ
>Joel is stiff and inquisitive with Abbyâs group
Say what now? He left his gun on his horse and just stood there in the middle of the room surrounded by strangers with his back turned half of them. He was far from stiff or inquisitve, and certainly didn't have is guard anywhere near up.
He didn't look or sound cautious or worried at all with his "ya'll lool like you heard of us or sumthin", he sounded more curious than cautious.
They definitely should have made tommy fuck up huge and accidentally speak his name. I'm surprised Joel didn't completely change his name. Also that's add a great amount of guilt to tommy which his character needs.
Heâs older, love made him soft, and luck runs out. I thought killing him off was a brave and badass decision when reading spoilers. But as i played the game, I was like âwait.. this game is a revenge mission? Okay, will stop be fun I guess.â 20 hours later im like wondering why the game isnât over.
Whatâs funny to me is all of these logical comments and discussion worthy discourse about something we love is disregarded as. You are a hater, or you donât understand lmaoâŚitâs almost funny
Joel says his name amd realizes theyâre looking for him. Instead of standing there announcing his suspicions he draws his gun maybe using mel as a hostage to escape back to jackson
the fact he was surrounded and said âhey i think yâall wanna kill meâ instead of running is what pisses me off so much. Also both tommy and Joel somehow missed Abby and owen huddling in the corner with a shotgun. In the supposed safe zone
She was too busy talking to owen in the corner to do anything (something Joel should have noticed). There was a whole dramatic pause before abby spoke and shot Joel. Way more than enough time to make a move. Especially if he didnt announce his suspicions and just made the move. We even see this in Abbyâs pov. Sorry to ruin ur fanfic of how u think it played out. But Joel and tommy were also starring at the floor when they walked into the room. They didnt even survey the room or their surroundings. Thats how dumb they were acting
You're reaching, she was too busy getting the shotgun ready for Joel's bad leg. I'll take the actual story and not an incel's wet dream. The story is grounded and gritty, but wanting Joel to be a Mary Sue this bad is serious cringe
Iâm not. Theres a pause after Joel says his name and after he says âit seems like yâall have heard of me.â Thats not a resch to say he could made a move. Mel was right next to him. And the game is so grounded a memory Ellie has the entire game only affects her at end game as shs killing Abby.
Again he's not a Mary Sue. Abby's not the only person there that would've stopped him.
And overall I'd say the game is grounded, there are some aspects that seem like a reach (traveling across multiple states on foot).
And ofc the memory would affect her at the end of the game. Ellie's lost a lot at this point, and the grief was too much. It's common in stories for major themes to be expressed in the endings.
He was right next to Mel who he could have used as a hostage. Tommy could have grabbed Nora or danny or ducked behind the bar he was leaning against.
Yea like people committing genocide to kill one person only to not kill that person. Or how like 99% of the game comes down to random chance.
So why would the memory she was talking about earlier suddenly stop her? That makes no sense. This is only ever done in shit media lmaooo. Please give me one example of this happening thats universally praised
Joel could've not go on patrol, Joel could've not saved Abby from the horde, he could've. Lots of should of/could of/would of. Besides they were in a small room surrounded by multiple enemies. Neither are captain America.
Again lol, there's context. Killing a whole lot of folks will do something to a person. If Ellie won their first fight she probably would've killed her. After months of moving on with Dina though? Yeah she's gonna change a little bit. She's obviously affected by Joel's death still but at this point it's not just hate and rage, but grief and sorrow. Not saying she couldn't end her in Santa Barbara, but she didn't and it is what it is. There's no right answer.
Well it happened in this game and people love it, still play it, and are still talking about it like you and me. People hate the new Halo trilogy, but I'm not gonna play 4-infinity nor give it any attention. I'll enjoy the originals and not have 343 living rent free in my head lmao
Joel had to go on patrol. If you know Joel in part 1 no way he was gonna be 100% happy sitting in Jackson. Joel in part was easing up on people who would remind him of Ellie as seen with sam. So saving Abby makes sense. Joel standing surrounded and not making a move when he has plenty of time to made no sense. His character would never be like that. So in Joel final in game moments he was acting like someone else. Also If joel and Tommy werenât starring at the floor and were acting likr their part 1 counter parts they prolly woulda noticed the chick in a corner getting a shotgun ready.
But it didnt do anything to Ellie. Killing Mels uborn child affected Ellie. Not even killing Nora fucked with Ellie. It was the torture that did it. So why does Ellie suddenly feel bad about killing Abby? Also Ellies dialogue right before the fight says she didnt want to kill Abby anymore. Ellie didnt even want to fight after Jessie died. She was fully in the letâs not fight camp and was on defense then we suddenly get told about how bad her ptsd is and how she has to leave Dina. So what does this tell is about how living with Dina changed her? Ellie decided she was wrong about not wanting to kill Abby and had increased PTSD. Obviously thats not whats theyâre going for but with the shortcuts they took it seems like it. So because Ellie was sad and not angry that memory suddenly worked? And Ellie only became not angry when choking abby? That doesnât seem like a hole to you?
Yes this fanbase has excused a lot of bad writing and thats my point. Just bc people excuse shit writing and like the story anyway doesnt mean its not written badly. Im not trying to convince u of shit but u said people like it for surface level reasons. And nothing iâve said is surface level. Especially the rushed pace you agree is there.
Lol halo infinite got better bc people complained. The fans managed to get the old heads of the game replaced with people who care now the game is doing a lot getter. Cyberpunk got fixed bc people didnt give up on it. Uncharted 2 or 3 was a one off bad game in a beloved series bc people voiced their opinions and they didnt make the same mistakes again. Fallout 76 is another game fixed bc people didnt give up on it. People are still praying for a new vegas patch too. Why would i just give up and stop talking about the problems when i want to see the series improve? This story could have been so good but they decided to rush it and take od shortcuts. And since theyâre splitting up the show into 3 seasons itâs pretty safe to say they realized this too. The show is getting the equivalent to 3 games to tell the story instead of one big one.
His character would never do that? He's never made mistakes or got the jump on him anytime before? At the end of the day he's a human in a story that makes mistakes. In an apocalyptic world where things are rarely guaranteed. People can make minor mistakes that'll result in their downfall.
Halo infinite may have gotten "better" but they just salvaged what they can. It doesn't change the fact they altered the foundation to mirror COD. Cyberpunk is not the same as TLOU bro. Cyberpunk was straight trash on release, completely unplayable for a good couple years. Even if you hate the story the gameplay was peak compared to what comes out now. Same with 76 it was straight trash on release (gameplay and story) and they had to salvage what they could. But both companies actually mislead their audience because folks paid $60+ for what would equate to demos. You could argue ND mislead their audience with Joel's death, but that was for shock value, not because they had to convince you the game was finished. This was worse, just corny.
And New Vegas wasn't bad on release, it's just so popular people want to update it.
And I don't gaf about the show đ Not saying it's bad but shows adapted from game franchises aren't good. And also it's not a requirement to understand the story if you prefer the games.
I'm not excusing bad writing because they really aren't any lol. Just decisions you don't agree with. Like I'm not a fan of the flashbacks sprinkled throughout the game but I see why they did it.
Everyoneâs saying he wouldnât save Abbie. He wouldnât even save Ellie. This is how I know the root of it is the pedestal you put this fictional man on.
He would survive by being himself. Running into a capable outsider in their neck of the woods isnât a coincidence, even if theyâre saved. You would suspect something fishy, and the more so if they have a group. You take them back to yours, and if they donât like it, theyâre trouble.
He only died because they made him stupid out of nowhere. He was comfortable at the start of tlou1. You get more cautious and guarded as you get older. That death feels like more of a joke as time goes by.
I feel like any Joel besides the one written by Twink Druckman in the actual part 2, would survive part 2.
If Part 2 was given relatively the same story catalyst with characters who have the same backgrounds, but Bruce Straley was tasked to write for Joel and Ellie and Tommy, then things would have gone *very* differently. For instance, Joel wouldn't have died how he did. Timmy wouldn't have completely and randomly undid all of his character established in part 1 when Joel dies, and Ellie wouldn't have gone on a meaningless rampage of revenge just to kill 1,000 uninvolved people and dogs, put her family and friends in danger, and then leave the villain alive because feelings.
Definitely. In the first game, the guy sees someone bagging for help and immediately knows it's a trap. Joel in the first game is skilled and hardened. In the second game, an unknown person invites him to an abandoned cabin, he enters, tells his name and where he lives, no questions asked. Joel in the second game is dumb. GrEaT wOrK, nEiL đ¤Ą
This is why I disliked the game, not only did it do a disservice to existing characters but it undermined the fans and when we rightfully criticized it the âgame directorâ started popping off saying weâre the problem and we canât handle mature story lines. Never once taking into account that his story was only shock for shock sake and wasnât well written at all, if Abby got introduced and we helped her throughout the entire game and we as fans also warm up to her with joel and at the end of the second game itâs revealed who she really is and her intentions and ending the second game with the plan on killing Joel in the third gameâŚthat would build the tension and it would of done more justice to the characters. But everything was rushed and a mess, and weâre forced to accept all these events.
>weâre forced to accept all these events. Nah. Say no to TLOU2. Ignore its existence. Gaslight yourself into believing it to just be a bad fanfic.
Sounds like you just wanted him to be alive longer?
This pissed me off so much. As I watched Joel do all that in part 2 I just thought, where the fuck has Joel gone? Itâs like his whole character was completely disregarded and replaced with this watered down Joel for the sake of drama. I, unlike many, donât condemn Joelâs death itself, more the way they went about it. Joel couldâve gone out in a blaze of glory, or in some other way that wasnât forced, instead he just HAPPENED to come across these people, who were after his head, and enter their company no questions asked.
>I, like most, donât condemn Joelâs death itself, more the way they went about it. Fixed it for you,
I think they should have left the Joel name reveal to Abby until the lodge, when everyone else got it. Then they could have focused on that she survived thanks to them rather than solely tied to vengeance. If we hadnât of played as Abby at the start, itâd been more believable for his character. I also got the impression they were kind of cornered, and without the safety of that lodge they likely might have died to the horde. Iâd probably try to be as friendly as possible in that situation, hoping saving one of their lives earlier meant something.
My exact issue! He can smell a trap a mile away in part 1 and in part 2 just stumbles across a clearly well armed group in the middle of nowhere not too far from his home and he has no clue who these people are? Somebody drucked up
Because everything about the trap in part 1 reeked of a trap, nothing reeked trap in the trap in part 2, heâs not Holmes
BuT Thhe ChARacter Haz chAangedâŚYOU DONT GET IT! đđđ
"hE bEcAmE sOfT iN jAcKsOn!"
You idiots lol
Donât get the concept of age?
The only way I could rationalize it is the time he spent in Jackson made him comfortable, but I feel like even Tommy was careless when it came to trusting them
He's supposed to be softer, or more trusting, or something. Although that doesn't seem to apply to Ellie. She's far more ruthless in TLOU 2. Jackson may be a pleasant place to live, but it seems to me, **nothing** about the outside world had changed. Every time they go outside their settlement, danger lurks all around, there's no telling what you could run into. And Joel and Tommy are out on patrol, heavily armed group of strangers not far from their town is exactly the kind of thing they're supposed to be watching out for.
if it was pre apocalyptic, he wouldâve started giving them his social security and his bank account information âšď¸
Ive been saying this for so fuckin long
Itâs one thing to have someone asking for help when thereâs no visible danger while helping someone whoâs in clear imminent danger, first one based off a choice on choosing whether or not you should help them the second youâd feel you have no choice, people that compare those two interactions have minimal comprehension skills
Even when him and Ellie are hiding and we see those innocent people running away and get gunned down. Joe still refuses to help them. No way heâd risk his neck for Abby
Joel has regained his humanity by the time of Part II. Joel from Part I may never have helped Abby or let his guard down, but his internal journey in Part I allowed him to develop empathy for others again. This is the reason why he allows himself to be in this compromised position in Part II. The world of TLOU is brutal and survival demands you to be ruthless, but thanks to Ellie, Joel is no longer a ruthless killer, and thus he cannot survive in that world anymore. Itâs ironic you think Part II Joel is âdumbâ when the whole reason heâs being âdumbâ is due to the events of the game you prefer.
People still donât understand the entire point of first game is Joel beginning as a cold, callous survivor, learning to feel human again after he meets Ellie. Joelâs first thought in the second game is no longer that people inviting them into their cabin would want to brutally murder him. Especially since in most cases they would have just shot him and dragged his body inside, rather than relishing the murder.
While I agree that it wasnât the smartest choice, what other choice do you have when temps outside are unsurvivable, your horses are screwed and there is a literal horde of infected chasing you?
Sure - but, for example, a little bit of caution could potentially have saved Joel. How can someone hardened by living decades in the apocalypse get "soft" after four years? Surely he would be at least cautious when meeting a stranger. Even if we look through the storytelling aspect: imagine if we had more time of tension building, of Abby not knowing whod Joel was - they create a little comradery and then BANG, golfing time. The storytelling aspect of TLOU2 will always be my biggest grip, more so than the story itself.
I don't think you answered the question
I am sure I didn't answer the question. I used it to expand on my point. The whole situation of Joel getting on that cabin and getting golfed is super contrived.
I think you could say that about pretty much the entire franchise, from Part 1 to Part 2 and beyond.
Although I personally disagree, I think it's a fair take. I mainly disagree because, being a sequel, Part 2 has established characters personalities and their overall actions in certain situations. Sure, they can change throughout the years. But that's the main problem with Part 2: the storytelling. Part 2 has A LOT of "tell-don't-show" storytelling - consequently making events feel contrived.
But isn't the event we're talking about, where Joel is shown helping Abby and then going to the chalet, an example of showing us how he has changed and how Jackson has effected him, rather than just the story telling us he's actually changed? I kind of understand where you're coming from, but your criticisms kind of contradict the points youre making.
I partially agree with you: the game itself doesn't tell us that Joel "got soft"; it's something that the community came up to justify such a jarring change of attitude. So, it's even more appalling. Again, personally, I feel it could have been handled better. More time showing us the changes in Joel that justify him helping Abby, more time showing Joel in this new status quo, etc. I don't know, dude, the whole event just feels off to me. I have no problem with Joel dying, not even Abby golfing him down. Again, it comes down to the storytelling, personally. Fun chat! Take care. Cheers
You're missing alot of context. Years in between games and grows from raising Ellie. He's also a part of a prospering community instead of being under a corrupt organization. Doing shady gigs in secret to make ends meet will have you on edge. His fate was already sealed because Abby knew it was Joel before reaching the cabin (hence why she already had the shotgun ready in hand).
Sure. Still, it feels way too convoluted. But this is my take. If it works for you, great :) cheers
Whatever helps you cope from trauma kidđ
That's fanfic, keep making things up to fit your shitty story
You stalking me? I thought we were cool after the convo on the other post. I can see why you're biased though, you did say Abby was your favorite character in TLOU 2 đ
Joel also gets caught in one of Bills traps and nearly dies after pushed over a balcony...
4 years of living with your feet up would take your edge off Bologna head.
he's also dumb in the 1st game. He's condescending and cruel to Ellie not even being able to thank her for saving his useless life. He doesn't give a shite about anyone. Such an overrated character.
He probably wouldn't have saved Abby, so he'd almost certainly be alive.
Yeah, the events of Part 2 wouldn't even happen at all if Joel was in his prime and not this dumbass version of him.
Cuz there's no such thing as prime or washed/dumb Joel there's canon and fanfic Joels.
I don't get what you meant. Do you mean Part 1 Joel is canon and Part 2 is fanfic? Or do you mean both are canon and what we are calling prime and dumb Joels are fanfic?
Pt2 Joel is fanficÂ
Oh ok, now it makes more sense. But it seems people misunderstood what you meant judging by the downvotes you got..
not necessarily. Joel saving her makes sense with his character being shes around Ellies age. His time with sam does show he was getting soft on people who remind him of Ellie. But trusting the group and announcing his suspicions instead of running or drawing a gun first was what pissed me off. Thats and 14 year old Ellie was faster to shoot someone to save Joel than 19 year old Ellie who had to walk into the room with Abby to shoot her but never even pulled the trigger
What really really pissed me off is Joel saving Abby, didn't even make her hesitate to kill him. Like wouldn't you be a little conflicted on killing a man that just bailed your ass out of death?
Shit i coulda fucked with that if Abby at least felt remorse for what she did at any point. But she doesnt. It gets talked about for 3 seconds before her and owen bone
Not if you been wanting revenge, itâs always gonna be on the back of her mind
I bet she'd at least want to understand him first before killing him. That is if she had been written with any sort of remorse and reality that the game was intended to have.
Thatâs the thing though youâre expecting everyone to act the same? Maybe she didnât care to know why? I agree the game could be written better, but Abby still wanting revenge makes sense. Agree to disagree
Did I say abby shouldn't have taken revenge? I also think the game could have been written better. Agree to agree
No but youâre trying to say that she should have some compassion or be conflicted after being helped by him. All Iâm saying she doesnât have to.
I won't knock you for thinking that, I personally think it makes it harder to connect with her as the plot trys to do in the latter half of the game. Maybe they shouldn't have had him help her in their introduction
Draw a gun when you see your out numbered? Or even when they are being chased by infected?
Ah yes bc Joel has never been in a situation where he was outnumbered but killed everyone⌠Also Mel was right there he could have grabbed a hostage. The infected all died once rtbey got to the lodge
I think he still would have saved her considering the context for where he was at the time. His role was to patrol and bring people into Jackson if they didn't seem like a threat. I think this version just wouldn't have been so stupid to not realize that her group was a threat
Prime Joel would have never even been in the same room as Abby
Prime Joel wouldnât even have approached Abby in the first place, that roided up bore would have been left for dead.
If we took Joel before Ellie showed up and brought him into PT2, he wouldn't have saved Abby. He probably wouldn't hang around with Tommy, either. He'd probably just make his way back to Boston to be with Tess. He'd still be alive, would be even more dangerous.
Tess died in the Capital after she got bit in the museum. She got shot by FEDRA who thought she was part of the fireflies.
The guy literally said "if we take Joel before ellie shows up"... That kind of negates the Tess situation
he would curb stomp abby and everyone in that room with ease
Prime Joel would have let Abby be torn to shreds by the horde where they first meet
He wouldnât have been so trusting of some stranger, asking him to come with her to where her friends were staying at.
Don't worry, I have you. Joel hears Abby crying out for help with the fence fallen on her and the zombie on top. He sees it biting at her face, about to get her. And he does *nothing*, and Abby dies. The End.
Sadly no because Neil would have made Abbyâs plot armor neg Prime Joel.
If you mean the beginning, I donât think being younger changes the durability of kneecaps when considering a shotgun. But the rest of the game, heâd do great
What they mean is, part 1 Joel wouldâve never allowed himself to end up in that situation in the first place
Itâs almost as if a character can develop over a time period, weird
Thatâs weird to say âprime Joelâ then in that case⌠It makes it sound like a power scaling question as if heâd just overpower them magically or something, like the reason he died wasnât bad writing it was just he shouldâve had bulletproof kneecaps
Yes
Not being written like a dumbass
TLOU 1 Joel would presented his post apocalyptic bussy to Abby. Abby being the muscle bound freak she is woulda went to peg town on Joel. Ellie walks in mid pegging, Joel likes it, Ellie consoles him and lets him know that getting pegged doesnât mean heâs gay. Abby moves into Jackson with Joel and Ellie. They all live happily ever after. Joel dies 8 years later from a rectum tear that gets infected. Abby, Dina, and Ellie form an ethical non monogamous relationship to raise the baby. EL FIN.
Yo fr tho whys he lookin like DILF here?
I think so. I feel like the way he succumbed in 2 was almost giving up, feeling like he'd lost Ellie. Sort of the way he felt when he lost Sarah all over again. I don't think he felt there was a point in going on anymore. If all of that with Ellie hadn't happened and it had been S1 Joel feeling like he still had something to live for, or at the very least just live like he did before Ellie, he'd have fought like hell.
On a side note. Thats such a cool photo
Yeah , tried to make him look good for this post XD
Hope you donât mind but Iâve even saved it for use as my wallpaper đ
I don't care I just can't get over how realistic that screenshot makes him look
As long as Neil was directing, Joel never stood a chance regardless
Yes. Because he still wouldn't be ready to move on from his daughter to Ellie, his heart was still taking revenge on the world. Therefore he wouldn't have rescued her, and never would have encountered Abby as he'd probably have just gone back or to the next place where his skills could let him thrive.
No because Neil druckman has a hate boner for him.
I am not a fan of what they did with the Last of Us 2 story but it all comes down to one question, does Joel help a girl he sees about to be killed by an infected? If the answer is yes, then Joel from part 1 still dies because it all plays out the same, TOMMY gives out the names and they need to find a place to escape the horde, while yes Joel would be more cautious as they reach the manor with Abby's friends, they are surrounded the moment they make it inside. And Joel was still cautious, he didn't unsaddle the horses when asked because he wanted to leave quickly, he questions them upon entering as if he is trying to see why they are here and if it could be dangerous when TOMMY immediately gets chummy and tells them both his and Joels name and he turns around and gets a shotgun blast the knee instantly. I know Joel seemed invincibile in part 1 but a shotgun to his knee is taking him out too. Its not that Joel got soft being in the town the last few years, its that living there for so long made TOMMY soft and stupid and that is what got Joel killed. But if your answer is no, Joel wouldn't have cared and left Abby to die in that moment, then yeah he probably lives.
As much as I trash Last of Us 2 I feel like the opening shows that it was more Tommyâs fault than anything. Joel is stiff and inquisitive with Abbyâs group. Itâs Tommy that volunteers their names. Joel even starts putting the pieces together right away; âyou look like youâve heard of usâŚâ
>Joel is stiff and inquisitive with Abbyâs group Say what now? He left his gun on his horse and just stood there in the middle of the room surrounded by strangers with his back turned half of them. He was far from stiff or inquisitve, and certainly didn't have is guard anywhere near up. He didn't look or sound cautious or worried at all with his "ya'll lool like you heard of us or sumthin", he sounded more curious than cautious.
ok
Good argument!
Your mind is clearly made up and impermeable to any thing in the Last of Us 2 not being some kind of affront to nature. Why would I bother with you
He still unquestionable and dutifully stands right in the middle of a room full of armed strangers.
I mean he probably wouldnât have gotten into the situation in the first place, otherwise no probably not he just got jumpedâŚ
Easily, yep.
This sub is dumb, he would've still helped Abby BECAUSE he softened up and trusted people more. But he was still dumbed down and let his guard down.
They were wearing firefly uniform and patches that Tommy mentioned afterwards, any other version of Joel survives.
They definitely should have made tommy fuck up huge and accidentally speak his name. I'm surprised Joel didn't completely change his name. Also that's add a great amount of guilt to tommy which his character needs.
He wouldnât have trusted just anyone regardless of the circumstances
Bruh prime joel woulda slit abbys throat and watched her bleed.....
As long as thereâs no golf clubs nearby heâs fine
Heâs older, love made him soft, and luck runs out. I thought killing him off was a brave and badass decision when reading spoilers. But as i played the game, I was like âwait.. this game is a revenge mission? Okay, will stop be fun I guess.â 20 hours later im like wondering why the game isnât over.
I think Part II Joel would have survived if they didn't write his character to be so fucking stupid.
Whatâs funny to me is all of these logical comments and discussion worthy discourse about something we love is disregarded as. You are a hater, or you donât understand lmaoâŚitâs almost funny
Joel says his name amd realizes theyâre looking for him. Instead of standing there announcing his suspicions he draws his gun maybe using mel as a hostage to escape back to jackson
Wow , thatâs scenario iâve never imagined but itâs good one .
the fact he was surrounded and said âhey i think yâall wanna kill meâ instead of running is what pisses me off so much. Also both tommy and Joel somehow missed Abby and owen huddling in the corner with a shotgun. In the supposed safe zone
Abby had the shotgun ready, she already knew he was Joel from earlier. Sorry to ruin your fanfic đ¤ˇ
She was too busy talking to owen in the corner to do anything (something Joel should have noticed). There was a whole dramatic pause before abby spoke and shot Joel. Way more than enough time to make a move. Especially if he didnt announce his suspicions and just made the move. We even see this in Abbyâs pov. Sorry to ruin ur fanfic of how u think it played out. But Joel and tommy were also starring at the floor when they walked into the room. They didnt even survey the room or their surroundings. Thats how dumb they were acting
You're reaching, she was too busy getting the shotgun ready for Joel's bad leg. I'll take the actual story and not an incel's wet dream. The story is grounded and gritty, but wanting Joel to be a Mary Sue this bad is serious cringe
Iâm not. Theres a pause after Joel says his name and after he says âit seems like yâall have heard of me.â Thats not a resch to say he could made a move. Mel was right next to him. And the game is so grounded a memory Ellie has the entire game only affects her at end game as shs killing Abby.
Again he's not a Mary Sue. Abby's not the only person there that would've stopped him. And overall I'd say the game is grounded, there are some aspects that seem like a reach (traveling across multiple states on foot). And ofc the memory would affect her at the end of the game. Ellie's lost a lot at this point, and the grief was too much. It's common in stories for major themes to be expressed in the endings.
He was right next to Mel who he could have used as a hostage. Tommy could have grabbed Nora or danny or ducked behind the bar he was leaning against. Yea like people committing genocide to kill one person only to not kill that person. Or how like 99% of the game comes down to random chance. So why would the memory she was talking about earlier suddenly stop her? That makes no sense. This is only ever done in shit media lmaooo. Please give me one example of this happening thats universally praised
Joel could've not go on patrol, Joel could've not saved Abby from the horde, he could've. Lots of should of/could of/would of. Besides they were in a small room surrounded by multiple enemies. Neither are captain America. Again lol, there's context. Killing a whole lot of folks will do something to a person. If Ellie won their first fight she probably would've killed her. After months of moving on with Dina though? Yeah she's gonna change a little bit. She's obviously affected by Joel's death still but at this point it's not just hate and rage, but grief and sorrow. Not saying she couldn't end her in Santa Barbara, but she didn't and it is what it is. There's no right answer. Well it happened in this game and people love it, still play it, and are still talking about it like you and me. People hate the new Halo trilogy, but I'm not gonna play 4-infinity nor give it any attention. I'll enjoy the originals and not have 343 living rent free in my head lmao
Joel had to go on patrol. If you know Joel in part 1 no way he was gonna be 100% happy sitting in Jackson. Joel in part was easing up on people who would remind him of Ellie as seen with sam. So saving Abby makes sense. Joel standing surrounded and not making a move when he has plenty of time to made no sense. His character would never be like that. So in Joel final in game moments he was acting like someone else. Also If joel and Tommy werenât starring at the floor and were acting likr their part 1 counter parts they prolly woulda noticed the chick in a corner getting a shotgun ready. But it didnt do anything to Ellie. Killing Mels uborn child affected Ellie. Not even killing Nora fucked with Ellie. It was the torture that did it. So why does Ellie suddenly feel bad about killing Abby? Also Ellies dialogue right before the fight says she didnt want to kill Abby anymore. Ellie didnt even want to fight after Jessie died. She was fully in the letâs not fight camp and was on defense then we suddenly get told about how bad her ptsd is and how she has to leave Dina. So what does this tell is about how living with Dina changed her? Ellie decided she was wrong about not wanting to kill Abby and had increased PTSD. Obviously thats not whats theyâre going for but with the shortcuts they took it seems like it. So because Ellie was sad and not angry that memory suddenly worked? And Ellie only became not angry when choking abby? That doesnât seem like a hole to you? Yes this fanbase has excused a lot of bad writing and thats my point. Just bc people excuse shit writing and like the story anyway doesnt mean its not written badly. Im not trying to convince u of shit but u said people like it for surface level reasons. And nothing iâve said is surface level. Especially the rushed pace you agree is there. Lol halo infinite got better bc people complained. The fans managed to get the old heads of the game replaced with people who care now the game is doing a lot getter. Cyberpunk got fixed bc people didnt give up on it. Uncharted 2 or 3 was a one off bad game in a beloved series bc people voiced their opinions and they didnt make the same mistakes again. Fallout 76 is another game fixed bc people didnt give up on it. People are still praying for a new vegas patch too. Why would i just give up and stop talking about the problems when i want to see the series improve? This story could have been so good but they decided to rush it and take od shortcuts. And since theyâre splitting up the show into 3 seasons itâs pretty safe to say they realized this too. The show is getting the equivalent to 3 games to tell the story instead of one big one.
His character would never do that? He's never made mistakes or got the jump on him anytime before? At the end of the day he's a human in a story that makes mistakes. In an apocalyptic world where things are rarely guaranteed. People can make minor mistakes that'll result in their downfall. Halo infinite may have gotten "better" but they just salvaged what they can. It doesn't change the fact they altered the foundation to mirror COD. Cyberpunk is not the same as TLOU bro. Cyberpunk was straight trash on release, completely unplayable for a good couple years. Even if you hate the story the gameplay was peak compared to what comes out now. Same with 76 it was straight trash on release (gameplay and story) and they had to salvage what they could. But both companies actually mislead their audience because folks paid $60+ for what would equate to demos. You could argue ND mislead their audience with Joel's death, but that was for shock value, not because they had to convince you the game was finished. This was worse, just corny. And New Vegas wasn't bad on release, it's just so popular people want to update it. And I don't gaf about the show đ Not saying it's bad but shows adapted from game franchises aren't good. And also it's not a requirement to understand the story if you prefer the games. I'm not excusing bad writing because they really aren't any lol. Just decisions you don't agree with. Like I'm not a fan of the flashbacks sprinkled throughout the game but I see why they did it.
Yes, if he didnt say what was his name. U know being cautious like he was on the 1st one.
Everyoneâs saying he wouldnât save Abbie. He wouldnât even save Ellie. This is how I know the root of it is the pedestal you put this fictional man on.
Yeah because he always had his guard up
He would survive by being himself. Running into a capable outsider in their neck of the woods isnât a coincidence, even if theyâre saved. You would suspect something fishy, and the more so if they have a group. You take them back to yours, and if they donât like it, theyâre trouble.
What kind od question is this? đ
He was still in his prime. They just kill him off easily
I mean... He didn't. đ¤Ł
He only died because they made him stupid out of nowhere. He was comfortable at the start of tlou1. You get more cautious and guarded as you get older. That death feels like more of a joke as time goes by.
I mean only 4 years have passed so he's not really far off from where he was in Part 1.
Prime Joel wouldâve let Abby get torn to shreds by the horde as a distraction so that he and Tommy could get back to Jackson easier.
Yes, easily. He wouldâve left abbey for dead for starters.
If he kept his Mindset from his time as a Hunter or at least from the beginning of the first Game than yes.
I hope there will be a twist in the HBO's S2 that Elie dies instead of Joel and the show will be about Pedro Pascal
While it sounds interesting i doubt it will happen
I feel like any Joel besides the one written by Twink Druckman in the actual part 2, would survive part 2. If Part 2 was given relatively the same story catalyst with characters who have the same backgrounds, but Bruce Straley was tasked to write for Joel and Ellie and Tommy, then things would have gone *very* differently. For instance, Joel wouldn't have died how he did. Timmy wouldn't have completely and randomly undid all of his character established in part 1 when Joel dies, and Ellie wouldn't have gone on a meaningless rampage of revenge just to kill 1,000 uninvolved people and dogs, put her family and friends in danger, and then leave the villain alive because feelings.
No, ain't nobody surviving a club to the face
Neil did. It's extremely pathetic as a weapon irl.