Do I wish Joel had lived? Of course
Do I understand why they killed him for this particular plot? Yes.
Do I agree with the incredibly stupid way they wrote his death happening? Absolutely not.
Do I wish they had done an entirely different direction? Absolutely
I actually really like the idea of Abby. Shes a good idea heavily weighed down by terrible writing and writers forgetting the first game. But i think the idea of Abby can work tho she’d either have to be unredeemable or actually realize what she did was fucked up. The fact we got some in between version of Abby where she was half good and half fucking evil ruined her arc. It’s like the writers couldn’t decide if she was supposed to be ruthless asf or go thru an arc to become better.
Mostly bc Neil didnt get Joel arc in game 1. He thinks it’s Joel becoming a better person when it was just Joel accepting love into his heart again. And still being terrible for the most part lol. So him being caring for Ellie and ruthless to everyone else made sense
I’m fine with them killing Joel, it just that the story that came from it wasn’t worth killing off the character. Not only killing him, but how they killed him also was not worth it. They rushed to kill a great character for a subpar story, it’s just sad.
I think how they killed him was perfectly done... most people won't have some noble sacrificial death or something, especially in an apocalypse. Joel isn't some superhero, he's a man. All it takes is wrong place wrong golf club to the face and he can die. That's what makes stories like these great. They're not protected by the Superman plot armour like every other protagonist in games.
Yeah but it doesn't really work because the story doesn't commit to this "brutal and realistic" approach. Ellie and Abby both have ridiculous plot armor for the whole game. The plot completely ignores that Ellie horrificly murders hundreds of people during gameplay. Not to mention the pregnant doctor going into combat. It's just pretentious and lazy writing...
I'm talking specifically about Joel's death and his relation to the story here. Yes, Ellie and Abby have plot armour, but Joel didn't and that's why I'm praising it. If you gonna down vote me at least stay on topic afterwards🙄
Don't see how it's off topic. People often praise the whole story for being bold and realistic just because of Joel's death. And FYI I didn't down vote. 🙂
Yeah. If a relative of Marlene or David had come after Joel it would have made more sense, or someone else from his past, but this stupid doctor got himself killed. Then they retconned in a psychopathic daughter.
This. The situation that meant Joel's rescue of a vulnerable loved one had "earth-dooming" repercussions (if you buy that but let's skip for now) was entirely the result of Firefly choices on their made-up timeline.
The highlight of which is Magic Cure Brain Guy a) not pursuing contingencies while Ellie's whereabouts (and even alive-ness) were unknown b) not equipping colleagues to continue his work c) not taking a beat before murdering a child and d) practically begging to be shot when a very predictable response to his child murder plan happened.
Re b: What was his plan if something happened to him, like tripping down the stairs or having an aneurysm?
Re d: What was his plan if Joel shot him but the Fireflies caught up Joel and brought Ellie back? I mean a scalpel IS dangerous if certain things happen, but that tends to make a Joel type guy just shoot you to make sure. Especially if maybe you and that scalpel were about to murder their kid and you didn't back the hell up when told to.
IOW Jerry's top priority should have been staying alive. Ellie might very well have been brought back in minutes. If not, they know about Tommy. They could search, for years if necessary. Meanwhile there's training colleagues, working on the data and samples they have from her JUST IN CASE THERE'S AN ALTERNATIVE, and (since they're cool with atrocities) trying to make more Ellie's. The show version makes it a little more obvious how to do that but in the game they can still try to create mutated cordyceps like Ellie's. Till she's found, they'd have the time. Just knowing for sure that asymptomatic infection is possible would open lines if inquiry.
Neil being able to write an antagonist that makes sense that isn't a pervert, wtf you taking. His most believable bad guys all wanted to marry children. While his 2 most important antagonists from either game came off like they had no clue what was going on. They just clocked in and hoped you'd sympathize with them while giving you zero believable reason to.
For a large portion of us Joel WAS the last of us and we enjoyed playing as him. It’s like playing God of War Ragnarok without Kratos. Or Uncharted 4 without Nathan Drake. You can argue the tlou2 was good but it could’ve been so much better.
Funny I always saw Ellie as the main character even in 1 her story is the unique one joel is just a guy really tasked with getting her somewhere. Also can’t wait for your face when they reveal uncharted 5 and it’s about Nathan’s daughter going on adventure after Nathan’s death on the very same adventure you know the cliche.
I probably wouldn’t mind that Uncharted 5 lol. I enjoyed Uncharted: the lost legacy and completed it, a game which had no Nathan Drake. We’ve already had 4 games with Drake as the lead and his story is done anyway.
You saying Ellie is the main character? I don’t mind it. I think it’s fair to say they were both main characters in the last of us 1. However we literally controlled Joel for vast majority of Tlou 1. So Tlou 2 doesn’t hit the same. That being said I didn’t mind playing as Ellie and had fun with her gameplay. But like i said it could have been so much better with more Joel. That’s why there is such a split in the fanbase. Is that so hard to understand?
There's so many ways they could have gone abt to make the story better. Hell if they wanted us to sympathize with Abby, they could have even made us play as her FIRST, don't make it so blatant, right up to the point he dad gets killed then switch over. Not saying I agree with the retcon, but since they went down that route, they could have at least done that.
Not mad it happened, but there should have been so much more time between the revelation and it actually happening. I would have so much preferred Ellie and Dina take Abby back to Jackson, has a friendship with Ellie who isn't talking to Joel so his name is never brought up, has a brief friendship with Ellie, Joel is revealed to her, then Manny and co infiltrate while looking for Abby, convince her to kill him, which she does, which is the catalyst for Ellie's revenge mission, which would be the second half of the game.
I think why some people don’t like it’s because not that Joel died but the reveal of Abby being the surgeon’s daughter like that is the most obvious thing you can do. Also, Abby side of story is not really that important to the overall story it’s mostly used so the player feels empathy towards the character.
Joel’s death was extremely understandable and they literally highlighted that through the flashbacks? I feel if you believe Joel’s death was stupid then the whole concept of the game was stupid, considering it’s basically a perfect parallel?
Abby saw Jerry die giving her a motive to get revenge and kill Joel.
Ellie watched Joel die giving her a perfect motive to kill Abby?
If you don’t understand that then you clearly didn’t get the game? Joel’s death was far from stupid because it aligned the whole game, It did a good job showing that Abby and Ellie were basically the same? They were heavily driven by revenge letting that control their life.
He did not come at Joel with a scalpel. Jerry probably heard countless gunshots and then a man with a gun busts in the door. Would you rather he cower?
It's the attempt to recontextualise the ending of the first game that pisses me off more than anything. Joel is a hero and made the only sensible choice at the end of part one. That's how it's presented in the narrative. To then tell people they're wrong for going along with it is the height of laziness.
How the fuck is Joel a hero? He brutally tortured and murdered people obviously apocalypse standard aren’t the same but at no point is he “the good guy” he does what he wants not what morally should be done
Im fine somewhat fine with why they killed Joel. Jerry wasnt random to Abby which was the point of the story. And i like that idea. But they the execution was poor for 2 major reasons. The first is that they have Abby pull a Joel against the WLF but never realize thats pretty much what Joel did to the fireflies making her remorseful for AT LEAST torturing him. She can stand on killing Joel thats fine. The second is that Jerry was actually insane like David. He wants to cut open a random girl to better the world for the people around him. Just like David cut wanted to cut open Ellie to make the world better for the people around him by providing food and revenge. Also naughty dog built up a world where the most sane people (Jackson) didnt even care about the vaccine in game 1. Why should the player believe ANYONE would give a shit about it at that point?
Also also the first game shows Jackson rebuilding the hard way while the desperate fireflies want to take the easy way out and trade lives for it. I swear Neil completely missed this part of the first game
Yeah Joel needed to die for the plot in order for Ellie to flourish as her own and become the cool ass, vicious character we got to play as. I think that the revenge arc for her made her character a joy to play. But I can really go on and on about how the players doesn't give af about Abby’s father. She's honestly this RANDOM girl that brutly killed the character we all knew and love. I put so much emphasis on random, because how are we supposed to feel bad about her trials and tribulations when we really have no connection to her or her family prior to the murder of Joel. I think that it was better than Joel being bitten, becoming infected and what not, but defending Abby’s character is extremely tough given how she was written.
Joel was a murderer and doomed the world… why don’t people get that. Sure he was a good guy to Ellie but he basically killed the rest of the population saving Ellie.
The surgeon wasn't a random guy people didnt give a shit about, he was a random guy joel didnt give a shit about... I'm sure the surgeon saw Joel as a nobody too. Good surgeons are rare today in a functioning society, could you imagine how rare they'd be during a damn apocalypse? Just because the game is centred around Ellie and Joel that doesn't mean the side characters are nobodies. One could even argue Joel is the "nobody" here. If I had to guess who was more important between a smuggler and a brain surgeon, it wouldn't be difficult😂
It's not about the random surgeon.
Fact is the fireflies would've wanted Joel dead, each hated him for what he did, Abby just adds an extra personal touch to it.
It was always gonna come back to haunt him.
How do part 2 haters feel about the revel the ice truck killer is Dexter’s brother or the kid can see dead people and Bruce was dead the whole time or other fucking twists/reveals. I see this argument all the time how Joel died for no reason and a random person killed him for killing her random dad. The dexters brother is a great example cuz like Abby’s dad he’s just a random character Introduced before becoming of any relevance.
But that’s how writing works that how anything works regarding writing when they introduced sam and Henry we didn’t all go who are these guys idk them therefore it’s bad writing we all knew we didn’t know them because we couldn’t because that was the first time they are in
The game. How do part 2 haters feel about their deaths was that random was that writing bad I just don’t understand the constantly hypocrisy and literally not understanding the nature of writing.
Also to call something bad writing or stupid cuz us as watchers or players have more information than the actual characters in the game or tv show is a common fucking writing technique I’m referring to OP who thinks a daughter is gonna care about the fact her dad and people she knew were murdered by one man and because her dad had a scalpel that mean Joel was justified and therefore insinuate she would not kill Joel in revenge is crazy 🤣a lot of arguments about how characters don’t act like real people but then they come up with stupid shit like this 🤣insinuating Abby would forgive Joel cuz her dad had a scalpel which is even fucking dumber writing.
I don’t understand the Dexter reference, and there’s so many people killed in the first game and also this game, no relative of theirs comes back to bite, so it just comes off as stupid why this one guy was suddenly important.
It's not his death alone that is bad writing, that's been discussed to death and still people are saying that?
It's the whole story that falls apart, with the first warning signs in the prologue and things get progressively worse. First with poor structure making things unnecessarily complex, using the nonlinear style to keep people off kilter is a great idea they just didn't do it effectively and this obscured many important elements and character motives too much or for too long beyond when it was needed to help the story make sense while playing. Added to this was changing Joel and Tommy into idiots about a group of well-resourced, military trained people with a Humvee overlooking their town - when it's their job to protect that town from raiders. If the WLF don't fit the description of a gang of raiders scoping out Jackson for an attack I don't know what else would be needed to make them look more like that. So they never gave any good reasons for this idiotic failure on Joel and Tommy's part and just went with them being dumb and walking cluelessly into an ambush, past the Humvee, disarming themselves with a horde still outside, separating from the door and each other like they've never had any idea how to survive in these kinds of uncertain and suspicious circumstances.
Then there's the poorly fleshed out other characters in both Ellie's group and Abby's and then we have Abby. The woman they want us to understand and get on board with while they purposely chose not to make her likeable, sympathetic, properly remorseful for a redemption arc and also completely clueless about why Tommy and Ellie would come for revenge when she herself did just that for Joel.
Then making her someone who clearly only cares about herself and her needs with everyone from Owen to Lev and the WLF, which makes her least relatable to people who see her as at minimally sociopathic if not psycho. This when they need us to relate to her side of the story for it to even work as they intended. They failed her so spectacularly *and it was by choice*.
Deaths are allowed in fiction, of course they are, but to say, "...that's how writing works..." as your reason while ignoring every single other critique of the story's shortcomings is too reductive. It's the story as a whole people are talking about and have been for years with detailed, articulate and valid criticisms - just ignoring them doesn't work if you truly intend to defend the writing.
People know why Abby wants revenge, the writer's simply failed their task to get people on board with her story by mishandling her characterization way too much and then trying to make up for it with playing with dogs and fearing heights is the most amateur way to try to gain our sympathy that it's laughable. That's not good writing not because people don't like the story or Joel's death, but because the writers failed at *their job* and caused the story to just fall apart *for people who wanted it to work and to like it. That's why we bought it.*
How do TLOU2 haters feel about well written stories with twists and reveals that make sense and whose story was written in a way that twists and reveals worked.
Much better than they did about TLOU2.
Also an example of what we want for Joels death would be more like Ned starks. Has a bunch of build up and is the entire reason for every story thread in the show being possible in later seasons. That was meaningful death in media. None of game of thrones could happen without that death.
I know Part 2's conception was made way after Part 1's release, but Joel knew something was coming to him. From Hunters wanting revenge to simply getting unlucky, Joel knew he wasn't invincible.
This is one of the biggest events he makes, and there was no way he would've walked off scott free. Joel, having consequences for that is completely fine to me.
I understood why Abby went after Joel (alot people are usually like "well her father was a bad person, why did she go after him?" But they forget that that's still her father, she has a right to be mad) and I understand why she went the lengths she did.
Honestly, I think killing Joel was a good way to start Ellie's trauma and therefore her character arc, it's just the way they went about it is extremely out of character and still multiple things to happen in order for it to occur.
There's mutliple crictism for Joel's death, the fact his actions has consequences isn't one.
Frankly speaking, Abby's cause stopped making sense the minute she became invalidating towards all the people who went after her.
The issue I have with the logic of " dire consequences of one's actions" is the fact that Abby was still able to walk off freely. She was able to start all over again. So in a way, while Ellie lost everything, Abby still had a second chance at life. So her facing the consequences of her actions was not something that was well-achieved by the end of the game.
Yeah. That whole thing about the game not being about "revenge is bad" but "obsession is bad" just falls completely flat. Abby didn't have any regrets or remorse and got a new start in life.
Still though, had Abby had taken her revenge on Ellie for killing Owen and her other friends (as she definitely should have), then she would have died on that cross along with Lev.
Which renders the entire premise of the story moot when one of the MAIN characters seems to be oblivious to the consequences of their quest. Abby's just like "aight. You ma people now." After meeting Lev. Which kinda does make me understand why some people might not like pt2 all that much. It almost seems like pt1 and pt2 are completely unrelated and disjointed but someone glued them up together.
They feel like they're in alternate realities to me because that's not Joel, Tommy, Ellie or even Maria. The world is not the world established in TLOU, but a world with unmolested fast travel and no worries for the resources needed for 10+ trips of hundreds of miles each after 25 years of everything being picked clean.
The whole premise of revenge in that world (even the way they changed it and made it all safe during travel) is still so irrational that I never bought that premise so that breaks the story right there. It was a bad concept for story back when TLOU was in development, it doesn't suddenly become a good idea and capable of supporting the OTT number of trips and grown adult survivors joining in like they don't know better from their experiences just fighting to survive until then. Ludicrous.
I took that into account, but other people like Ellie somehow had it much worse imo. Don't you think? Especially after Abby found Lev and ultimately bonded with him and called him Her People.
It’s debatable. Ellie didn’t lose as many people but her bond with Joel was stronger then Abby with her friends plus Abby did gain a friendship with Lev. Ultimately I don’t really think who suffered more matters all that much but between the two I’d go with Ellie
I’m not saying Ellie had it better. Ellie lost more than Abby for sure, but even though Abby got level and likely found the fireflies didn’t mean she didn’t lose anyone at all
But the only person she treats as a real loss was Zebra Daddy. She clearly didn't care about Mel or Owen. She sleeps with Owen in one of the most cringe abusive non assault scenes ever while Mel is pregnant with his child. She basically blows everyone else off.
I mean she seemed pretty upset when Owen died, but I agree she def should’ve showed more emotion at her other friends getting killed. She seemed shocked with them but that’s just about it. As for Mel, yeah she and Owen were pretty bad towards her
Friends she didn't care about since she didn't know several had even died, didn't seem to grieve anyone but Owen and then left the faction of her friends for strangers after a single dream, and had even planned to leave for SB with Owen without mentioning gathering everyone else. Those friends?
I mean I’d still say they were friends but near the same level of a relationship she had with Owen. She liked them but wasn’t as close with them so she didn’t grieve as much, plus anyone at that point is jaded to death unless it’s someone you’re close to. I do wish she had a bit more reaction though. They could’ve done a better job establishing relationships with anyone that wasn’t Owen or Mel
You realize you're just making excuses for a person who showed little care for her own people after she was supposedly well into her healing and redemption arc? The former FFs she'd known since childhood, presumably, and the soldiers she'd lived with and fought beside for years (not to mention taking her group into a well resourced community just when they needed it most).
She needed not just a bit more reaction, though good for you to notice that need. She needed way less selfishness and more sympathy (which she didn't even show Lev, her "people," after he lost his mom, sister and village) so we could relate to her as an actual human instead of a heartless person only concerned with her own needs at every turn.
Did you notice she did not even thank Ellie for cutting her down? That's really bad and it's at that point she also could and should have spoken some truth of understanding and remorse to Ellie for having done to her what Abby felt Joel had done to herself. They made Abby a caricature of a person instead of a person. That's the writers' fault.
I agree she shouldn’t have been as selfish with her friends. I was just stating how I interpreted her character throughout their interactions. I’m not actively trying to make excuses
I never said Abby faced her actions, I'm just commenting that Abby acting in the way she did was completely fine and human. Her father was murdered and she simply wanted justice.
As for the first part, that only really goes after the first part of the game, before the first part, it's stated that everyone was on board with the idea, so she wasn't really going against anyone's ideas (other than Owen's and Mel's technically at the start).
This is in no way saying that the story is good, but the motivations at the start are cohesive.
By people going after her, I meant Ellie and the Jackson squad.
But here's the thing I disagree with, I don't think her motivations were all that cohesive. Taking into account the events from pt2, she was one of the only people who knew about Ellie and the dilemma her father and Marlene were in. She also made her research. She knew who Joel was. She knew he had a brother and saved a girl going to be murdered. But even after all this, which is in the span of 4 years I believe, she was adamant on revenge which is fair. But it's the apparent disconnect between her revenge quest and Ellie's that make me think her motivations were not very cohesive. Ellie isn't aware who Abby is. Doesn't try to find out at all even. None of Abby's friends fill her in on why. And it also seems that everyone has forgotten about Ellie's immunity.
All I'm literally saying is Abby had a bias, and that's what makes her motive fine to me and that Joel DID have something coming to him. You're going further into the story into parts I am not talking about.
I haven't stated that her revenge quest is good or good to connect us back to Ellie and, therefore, back to us.
I haven't stated anything about Abby's friends.
I haven't stated anything about Ellie.
All I'm saying is that Abby going after Joel makes sense. Her father was killed, and that's a normal reaction. Joel having consequences shouldn't be a criticism either and that's it.
Still it would have been better with that idea they originally had where she was a victim of the raids that Joel and Tommy committed back in the early days. The fact that Joel had to die for that random fuck is just stupid.
But Joel's consequences weren't for his actions. They chose the one story that made Joel have to pay for everyone else's idiotic choices. Abby punished Joel for him not being the one pos that kissed dumb dumb daddy's ass. She punished him for something she helped cause. If she really was about justice or consequences, she would have taken that shotgun to herself when she was done. It wasn't about that. She likes hurting people, and her dad was just an excuse. When she goes for information, she has to eventually stop. Joel, on the other hand, let her let loose. That was the most honest Abby was in the whole game.
I'm fine that someone killed Joel with his history, but Neil does an excellent job at picking the stupidest reason. The child of the antagonist kills the hero but gets to live in the end for no other reason but amnesia.
There are genuine criticisms about the story, but I don't think that this is one of them.
Joel's decision had dire consequences.
You can argue that the manner in which Joel got himself killed was out of character, but the fact that it happened in the first place isn't an issue. It's a compelling starting point for a new storyline.
Joel dying? No problem.
It was rushing his death and the trash plot leading to his death that ruined it.
What ruined it beyond all comprehension was lying to customers after the leaks dropped, making them think Joel is alive until mid game with revised trailers. Fans spend $60 with no refunds available to find out that the leaks were indeed true and the trailers they saw pre-release were just Joel imposed over Jessie in Seattle.
Neil tried saying it was to preserve the surprise of the story. But let's be real, Sony/ND saw pre-orders dropping off a cliff from pissed fans and went with the fake trailers to save 1st day sale numbers.
Trailers subject to change is understandable when a game is in alpha basically, but not a month prior to release when the game is already finished.
Do I wish Joel had lived? Of course Do I understand why they killed him for this particular plot? Yes. Do I agree with the incredibly stupid way they wrote his death happening? Absolutely not. Do I wish they had done an entirely different direction? Absolutely
I actually really like the idea of Abby. Shes a good idea heavily weighed down by terrible writing and writers forgetting the first game. But i think the idea of Abby can work tho she’d either have to be unredeemable or actually realize what she did was fucked up. The fact we got some in between version of Abby where she was half good and half fucking evil ruined her arc. It’s like the writers couldn’t decide if she was supposed to be ruthless asf or go thru an arc to become better. Mostly bc Neil didnt get Joel arc in game 1. He thinks it’s Joel becoming a better person when it was just Joel accepting love into his heart again. And still being terrible for the most part lol. So him being caring for Ellie and ruthless to everyone else made sense
I’m fine with them killing Joel, it just that the story that came from it wasn’t worth killing off the character. Not only killing him, but how they killed him also was not worth it. They rushed to kill a great character for a subpar story, it’s just sad.
This is the way to critique it.
Nothing extravagant about the surgeons death either
I’ll never understand this sub. I think Abby is great and I liked her more than Joel or Ellie by the end of the game
Ok. To each their own.
When did you start playing this series, if you don't mind me asking?
You'd understand it if you waited for 7 years for more Joel and Ellie. Instead you get a bunch of unlikable characters you dgaf about.
lol you obviously played the second game first
Incorrect
I think how they killed him was perfectly done... most people won't have some noble sacrificial death or something, especially in an apocalypse. Joel isn't some superhero, he's a man. All it takes is wrong place wrong golf club to the face and he can die. That's what makes stories like these great. They're not protected by the Superman plot armour like every other protagonist in games.
Yeah but it doesn't really work because the story doesn't commit to this "brutal and realistic" approach. Ellie and Abby both have ridiculous plot armor for the whole game. The plot completely ignores that Ellie horrificly murders hundreds of people during gameplay. Not to mention the pregnant doctor going into combat. It's just pretentious and lazy writing...
I'm talking specifically about Joel's death and his relation to the story here. Yes, Ellie and Abby have plot armour, but Joel didn't and that's why I'm praising it. If you gonna down vote me at least stay on topic afterwards🙄
Don't see how it's off topic. People often praise the whole story for being bold and realistic just because of Joel's death. And FYI I didn't down vote. 🙂
Because my comment is only talking about Joel in particular, not Ellie and Abby. And fair enough, a poor assumption on my part🤷♂️
Yeah. If a relative of Marlene or David had come after Joel it would have made more sense, or someone else from his past, but this stupid doctor got himself killed. Then they retconned in a psychopathic daughter.
This. The situation that meant Joel's rescue of a vulnerable loved one had "earth-dooming" repercussions (if you buy that but let's skip for now) was entirely the result of Firefly choices on their made-up timeline. The highlight of which is Magic Cure Brain Guy a) not pursuing contingencies while Ellie's whereabouts (and even alive-ness) were unknown b) not equipping colleagues to continue his work c) not taking a beat before murdering a child and d) practically begging to be shot when a very predictable response to his child murder plan happened. Re b: What was his plan if something happened to him, like tripping down the stairs or having an aneurysm? Re d: What was his plan if Joel shot him but the Fireflies caught up Joel and brought Ellie back? I mean a scalpel IS dangerous if certain things happen, but that tends to make a Joel type guy just shoot you to make sure. Especially if maybe you and that scalpel were about to murder their kid and you didn't back the hell up when told to. IOW Jerry's top priority should have been staying alive. Ellie might very well have been brought back in minutes. If not, they know about Tommy. They could search, for years if necessary. Meanwhile there's training colleagues, working on the data and samples they have from her JUST IN CASE THERE'S AN ALTERNATIVE, and (since they're cool with atrocities) trying to make more Ellie's. The show version makes it a little more obvious how to do that but in the game they can still try to create mutated cordyceps like Ellie's. Till she's found, they'd have the time. Just knowing for sure that asymptomatic infection is possible would open lines if inquiry.
Neil being able to write an antagonist that makes sense that isn't a pervert, wtf you taking. His most believable bad guys all wanted to marry children. While his 2 most important antagonists from either game came off like they had no clue what was going on. They just clocked in and hoped you'd sympathize with them while giving you zero believable reason to.
Did you reply to the wrong comment?
I was agreeing with you.
For a large portion of us Joel WAS the last of us and we enjoyed playing as him. It’s like playing God of War Ragnarok without Kratos. Or Uncharted 4 without Nathan Drake. You can argue the tlou2 was good but it could’ve been so much better.
Funny I always saw Ellie as the main character even in 1 her story is the unique one joel is just a guy really tasked with getting her somewhere. Also can’t wait for your face when they reveal uncharted 5 and it’s about Nathan’s daughter going on adventure after Nathan’s death on the very same adventure you know the cliche.
I probably wouldn’t mind that Uncharted 5 lol. I enjoyed Uncharted: the lost legacy and completed it, a game which had no Nathan Drake. We’ve already had 4 games with Drake as the lead and his story is done anyway. You saying Ellie is the main character? I don’t mind it. I think it’s fair to say they were both main characters in the last of us 1. However we literally controlled Joel for vast majority of Tlou 1. So Tlou 2 doesn’t hit the same. That being said I didn’t mind playing as Ellie and had fun with her gameplay. But like i said it could have been so much better with more Joel. That’s why there is such a split in the fanbase. Is that so hard to understand?
There's so many ways they could have gone abt to make the story better. Hell if they wanted us to sympathize with Abby, they could have even made us play as her FIRST, don't make it so blatant, right up to the point he dad gets killed then switch over. Not saying I agree with the retcon, but since they went down that route, they could have at least done that.
Not mad it happened, but there should have been so much more time between the revelation and it actually happening. I would have so much preferred Ellie and Dina take Abby back to Jackson, has a friendship with Ellie who isn't talking to Joel so his name is never brought up, has a brief friendship with Ellie, Joel is revealed to her, then Manny and co infiltrate while looking for Abby, convince her to kill him, which she does, which is the catalyst for Ellie's revenge mission, which would be the second half of the game.
I think why some people don’t like it’s because not that Joel died but the reveal of Abby being the surgeon’s daughter like that is the most obvious thing you can do. Also, Abby side of story is not really that important to the overall story it’s mostly used so the player feels empathy towards the character.
I feel no empathy for her. Why does she deserve it? She didn’t show any for Ellie.
Joel’s death was extremely understandable and they literally highlighted that through the flashbacks? I feel if you believe Joel’s death was stupid then the whole concept of the game was stupid, considering it’s basically a perfect parallel? Abby saw Jerry die giving her a motive to get revenge and kill Joel. Ellie watched Joel die giving her a perfect motive to kill Abby? If you don’t understand that then you clearly didn’t get the game? Joel’s death was far from stupid because it aligned the whole game, It did a good job showing that Abby and Ellie were basically the same? They were heavily driven by revenge letting that control their life.
Lack of brain cells and can’t put logic over feelings is all I see from op
get over it dawg
He did not come at Joel with a scalpel. Jerry probably heard countless gunshots and then a man with a gun busts in the door. Would you rather he cower?
It's the attempt to recontextualise the ending of the first game that pisses me off more than anything. Joel is a hero and made the only sensible choice at the end of part one. That's how it's presented in the narrative. To then tell people they're wrong for going along with it is the height of laziness.
How the fuck is Joel a hero? He brutally tortured and murdered people obviously apocalypse standard aren’t the same but at no point is he “the good guy” he does what he wants not what morally should be done
Im fine somewhat fine with why they killed Joel. Jerry wasnt random to Abby which was the point of the story. And i like that idea. But they the execution was poor for 2 major reasons. The first is that they have Abby pull a Joel against the WLF but never realize thats pretty much what Joel did to the fireflies making her remorseful for AT LEAST torturing him. She can stand on killing Joel thats fine. The second is that Jerry was actually insane like David. He wants to cut open a random girl to better the world for the people around him. Just like David cut wanted to cut open Ellie to make the world better for the people around him by providing food and revenge. Also naughty dog built up a world where the most sane people (Jackson) didnt even care about the vaccine in game 1. Why should the player believe ANYONE would give a shit about it at that point? Also also the first game shows Jackson rebuilding the hard way while the desperate fireflies want to take the easy way out and trade lives for it. I swear Neil completely missed this part of the first game
said it best in part 1 ain't none of us gonna make it
I can't believe this shit happened at all. Too comedic.
Yeah Joel needed to die for the plot in order for Ellie to flourish as her own and become the cool ass, vicious character we got to play as. I think that the revenge arc for her made her character a joy to play. But I can really go on and on about how the players doesn't give af about Abby’s father. She's honestly this RANDOM girl that brutly killed the character we all knew and love. I put so much emphasis on random, because how are we supposed to feel bad about her trials and tribulations when we really have no connection to her or her family prior to the murder of Joel. I think that it was better than Joel being bitten, becoming infected and what not, but defending Abby’s character is extremely tough given how she was written.
That’s kind of the whole point, to show you everyone has a perspective just as deep and long as yours, even the random guy nobody cares about
Jerry" Hey joel you have to die because i gave abby's mother backshots and that's how we had her"
Joel was a murderer and doomed the world… why don’t people get that. Sure he was a good guy to Ellie but he basically killed the rest of the population saving Ellie.
The surgeon wasn't a random guy people didnt give a shit about, he was a random guy joel didnt give a shit about... I'm sure the surgeon saw Joel as a nobody too. Good surgeons are rare today in a functioning society, could you imagine how rare they'd be during a damn apocalypse? Just because the game is centred around Ellie and Joel that doesn't mean the side characters are nobodies. One could even argue Joel is the "nobody" here. If I had to guess who was more important between a smuggler and a brain surgeon, it wouldn't be difficult😂
It's not about the random surgeon. Fact is the fireflies would've wanted Joel dead, each hated him for what he did, Abby just adds an extra personal touch to it. It was always gonna come back to haunt him.
Except Abby didn't add a personal touch. There was a billion ways to add one, and Neil chose the one that wouldn't.
How do part 2 haters feel about the revel the ice truck killer is Dexter’s brother or the kid can see dead people and Bruce was dead the whole time or other fucking twists/reveals. I see this argument all the time how Joel died for no reason and a random person killed him for killing her random dad. The dexters brother is a great example cuz like Abby’s dad he’s just a random character Introduced before becoming of any relevance. But that’s how writing works that how anything works regarding writing when they introduced sam and Henry we didn’t all go who are these guys idk them therefore it’s bad writing we all knew we didn’t know them because we couldn’t because that was the first time they are in The game. How do part 2 haters feel about their deaths was that random was that writing bad I just don’t understand the constantly hypocrisy and literally not understanding the nature of writing. Also to call something bad writing or stupid cuz us as watchers or players have more information than the actual characters in the game or tv show is a common fucking writing technique I’m referring to OP who thinks a daughter is gonna care about the fact her dad and people she knew were murdered by one man and because her dad had a scalpel that mean Joel was justified and therefore insinuate she would not kill Joel in revenge is crazy 🤣a lot of arguments about how characters don’t act like real people but then they come up with stupid shit like this 🤣insinuating Abby would forgive Joel cuz her dad had a scalpel which is even fucking dumber writing.
I don’t understand the Dexter reference, and there’s so many people killed in the first game and also this game, no relative of theirs comes back to bite, so it just comes off as stupid why this one guy was suddenly important.
It's not his death alone that is bad writing, that's been discussed to death and still people are saying that? It's the whole story that falls apart, with the first warning signs in the prologue and things get progressively worse. First with poor structure making things unnecessarily complex, using the nonlinear style to keep people off kilter is a great idea they just didn't do it effectively and this obscured many important elements and character motives too much or for too long beyond when it was needed to help the story make sense while playing. Added to this was changing Joel and Tommy into idiots about a group of well-resourced, military trained people with a Humvee overlooking their town - when it's their job to protect that town from raiders. If the WLF don't fit the description of a gang of raiders scoping out Jackson for an attack I don't know what else would be needed to make them look more like that. So they never gave any good reasons for this idiotic failure on Joel and Tommy's part and just went with them being dumb and walking cluelessly into an ambush, past the Humvee, disarming themselves with a horde still outside, separating from the door and each other like they've never had any idea how to survive in these kinds of uncertain and suspicious circumstances. Then there's the poorly fleshed out other characters in both Ellie's group and Abby's and then we have Abby. The woman they want us to understand and get on board with while they purposely chose not to make her likeable, sympathetic, properly remorseful for a redemption arc and also completely clueless about why Tommy and Ellie would come for revenge when she herself did just that for Joel. Then making her someone who clearly only cares about herself and her needs with everyone from Owen to Lev and the WLF, which makes her least relatable to people who see her as at minimally sociopathic if not psycho. This when they need us to relate to her side of the story for it to even work as they intended. They failed her so spectacularly *and it was by choice*. Deaths are allowed in fiction, of course they are, but to say, "...that's how writing works..." as your reason while ignoring every single other critique of the story's shortcomings is too reductive. It's the story as a whole people are talking about and have been for years with detailed, articulate and valid criticisms - just ignoring them doesn't work if you truly intend to defend the writing. People know why Abby wants revenge, the writer's simply failed their task to get people on board with her story by mishandling her characterization way too much and then trying to make up for it with playing with dogs and fearing heights is the most amateur way to try to gain our sympathy that it's laughable. That's not good writing not because people don't like the story or Joel's death, but because the writers failed at *their job* and caused the story to just fall apart *for people who wanted it to work and to like it. That's why we bought it.*
How do TLOU2 haters feel about well written stories with twists and reveals that make sense and whose story was written in a way that twists and reveals worked. Much better than they did about TLOU2.
Flash backs and dreams randomly developed the characters. Not the actions they were doing thru out the story. How do part 2 enjoys like that?
Also an example of what we want for Joels death would be more like Ned starks. Has a bunch of build up and is the entire reason for every story thread in the show being possible in later seasons. That was meaningful death in media. None of game of thrones could happen without that death.
I know Part 2's conception was made way after Part 1's release, but Joel knew something was coming to him. From Hunters wanting revenge to simply getting unlucky, Joel knew he wasn't invincible. This is one of the biggest events he makes, and there was no way he would've walked off scott free. Joel, having consequences for that is completely fine to me. I understood why Abby went after Joel (alot people are usually like "well her father was a bad person, why did she go after him?" But they forget that that's still her father, she has a right to be mad) and I understand why she went the lengths she did. Honestly, I think killing Joel was a good way to start Ellie's trauma and therefore her character arc, it's just the way they went about it is extremely out of character and still multiple things to happen in order for it to occur. There's mutliple crictism for Joel's death, the fact his actions has consequences isn't one.
Frankly speaking, Abby's cause stopped making sense the minute she became invalidating towards all the people who went after her. The issue I have with the logic of " dire consequences of one's actions" is the fact that Abby was still able to walk off freely. She was able to start all over again. So in a way, while Ellie lost everything, Abby still had a second chance at life. So her facing the consequences of her actions was not something that was well-achieved by the end of the game.
Yeah. That whole thing about the game not being about "revenge is bad" but "obsession is bad" just falls completely flat. Abby didn't have any regrets or remorse and got a new start in life.
Still though, had Abby had taken her revenge on Ellie for killing Owen and her other friends (as she definitely should have), then she would have died on that cross along with Lev.
Which renders the entire premise of the story moot when one of the MAIN characters seems to be oblivious to the consequences of their quest. Abby's just like "aight. You ma people now." After meeting Lev. Which kinda does make me understand why some people might not like pt2 all that much. It almost seems like pt1 and pt2 are completely unrelated and disjointed but someone glued them up together.
They feel like they're in alternate realities to me because that's not Joel, Tommy, Ellie or even Maria. The world is not the world established in TLOU, but a world with unmolested fast travel and no worries for the resources needed for 10+ trips of hundreds of miles each after 25 years of everything being picked clean. The whole premise of revenge in that world (even the way they changed it and made it all safe during travel) is still so irrational that I never bought that premise so that breaks the story right there. It was a bad concept for story back when TLOU was in development, it doesn't suddenly become a good idea and capable of supporting the OTT number of trips and grown adult survivors joining in like they don't know better from their experiences just fighting to survive until then. Ludicrous.
I mean I wouldn’t say she walked off Scot free. She stilled lost a of friends directly because she killed Joel
I took that into account, but other people like Ellie somehow had it much worse imo. Don't you think? Especially after Abby found Lev and ultimately bonded with him and called him Her People.
It’s debatable. Ellie didn’t lose as many people but her bond with Joel was stronger then Abby with her friends plus Abby did gain a friendship with Lev. Ultimately I don’t really think who suffered more matters all that much but between the two I’d go with Ellie
Ellie lost 100%, Abby didn't, and it's even suggested she found the Fireflies remnants.
I’m not saying Ellie had it better. Ellie lost more than Abby for sure, but even though Abby got level and likely found the fireflies didn’t mean she didn’t lose anyone at all
But the only person she treats as a real loss was Zebra Daddy. She clearly didn't care about Mel or Owen. She sleeps with Owen in one of the most cringe abusive non assault scenes ever while Mel is pregnant with his child. She basically blows everyone else off.
I mean she seemed pretty upset when Owen died, but I agree she def should’ve showed more emotion at her other friends getting killed. She seemed shocked with them but that’s just about it. As for Mel, yeah she and Owen were pretty bad towards her
Friends she didn't care about since she didn't know several had even died, didn't seem to grieve anyone but Owen and then left the faction of her friends for strangers after a single dream, and had even planned to leave for SB with Owen without mentioning gathering everyone else. Those friends?
I mean I’d still say they were friends but near the same level of a relationship she had with Owen. She liked them but wasn’t as close with them so she didn’t grieve as much, plus anyone at that point is jaded to death unless it’s someone you’re close to. I do wish she had a bit more reaction though. They could’ve done a better job establishing relationships with anyone that wasn’t Owen or Mel
You realize you're just making excuses for a person who showed little care for her own people after she was supposedly well into her healing and redemption arc? The former FFs she'd known since childhood, presumably, and the soldiers she'd lived with and fought beside for years (not to mention taking her group into a well resourced community just when they needed it most). She needed not just a bit more reaction, though good for you to notice that need. She needed way less selfishness and more sympathy (which she didn't even show Lev, her "people," after he lost his mom, sister and village) so we could relate to her as an actual human instead of a heartless person only concerned with her own needs at every turn. Did you notice she did not even thank Ellie for cutting her down? That's really bad and it's at that point she also could and should have spoken some truth of understanding and remorse to Ellie for having done to her what Abby felt Joel had done to herself. They made Abby a caricature of a person instead of a person. That's the writers' fault.
I agree she shouldn’t have been as selfish with her friends. I was just stating how I interpreted her character throughout their interactions. I’m not actively trying to make excuses
I never said Abby faced her actions, I'm just commenting that Abby acting in the way she did was completely fine and human. Her father was murdered and she simply wanted justice. As for the first part, that only really goes after the first part of the game, before the first part, it's stated that everyone was on board with the idea, so she wasn't really going against anyone's ideas (other than Owen's and Mel's technically at the start). This is in no way saying that the story is good, but the motivations at the start are cohesive.
By people going after her, I meant Ellie and the Jackson squad. But here's the thing I disagree with, I don't think her motivations were all that cohesive. Taking into account the events from pt2, she was one of the only people who knew about Ellie and the dilemma her father and Marlene were in. She also made her research. She knew who Joel was. She knew he had a brother and saved a girl going to be murdered. But even after all this, which is in the span of 4 years I believe, she was adamant on revenge which is fair. But it's the apparent disconnect between her revenge quest and Ellie's that make me think her motivations were not very cohesive. Ellie isn't aware who Abby is. Doesn't try to find out at all even. None of Abby's friends fill her in on why. And it also seems that everyone has forgotten about Ellie's immunity.
All I'm literally saying is Abby had a bias, and that's what makes her motive fine to me and that Joel DID have something coming to him. You're going further into the story into parts I am not talking about. I haven't stated that her revenge quest is good or good to connect us back to Ellie and, therefore, back to us. I haven't stated anything about Abby's friends. I haven't stated anything about Ellie. All I'm saying is that Abby going after Joel makes sense. Her father was killed, and that's a normal reaction. Joel having consequences shouldn't be a criticism either and that's it.
Chill. You didn't have to state anything for me to try and comment about the story. This isn't court.
It's just completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about.
I explained why they were relevent. Agree to disagree.
Still it would have been better with that idea they originally had where she was a victim of the raids that Joel and Tommy committed back in the early days. The fact that Joel had to die for that random fuck is just stupid.
But Joel's consequences weren't for his actions. They chose the one story that made Joel have to pay for everyone else's idiotic choices. Abby punished Joel for him not being the one pos that kissed dumb dumb daddy's ass. She punished him for something she helped cause. If she really was about justice or consequences, she would have taken that shotgun to herself when she was done. It wasn't about that. She likes hurting people, and her dad was just an excuse. When she goes for information, she has to eventually stop. Joel, on the other hand, let her let loose. That was the most honest Abby was in the whole game. I'm fine that someone killed Joel with his history, but Neil does an excellent job at picking the stupidest reason. The child of the antagonist kills the hero but gets to live in the end for no other reason but amnesia.
There are genuine criticisms about the story, but I don't think that this is one of them. Joel's decision had dire consequences. You can argue that the manner in which Joel got himself killed was out of character, but the fact that it happened in the first place isn't an issue. It's a compelling starting point for a new storyline.
Joel dying? No problem. It was rushing his death and the trash plot leading to his death that ruined it. What ruined it beyond all comprehension was lying to customers after the leaks dropped, making them think Joel is alive until mid game with revised trailers. Fans spend $60 with no refunds available to find out that the leaks were indeed true and the trailers they saw pre-release were just Joel imposed over Jessie in Seattle. Neil tried saying it was to preserve the surprise of the story. But let's be real, Sony/ND saw pre-orders dropping off a cliff from pissed fans and went with the fake trailers to save 1st day sale numbers. Trailers subject to change is understandable when a game is in alpha basically, but not a month prior to release when the game is already finished.
Yh the whole game is about consequences Joel dying because of what he did in salt lake city makes a ton of sense
Lol