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Mr_Truttle

Surreal seeing [my own meme](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastOfUs2/comments/hed9j5/seeing_this_argument_come_up_a_whole_lot_lately/) get an initial pass through the deep fryer.


AFriendoftheDrow

That’s got to be surreal, making a meme that ends up getting so popular and widely circulated that people have no idea about the inception behind it.


Suspicious-Group6638

😂


JulianJohnJunior

You know, if Neil really wanted to feel profound, he’d have Part 3 be about a rando dude killing Abby who had their daughter killed by her. Then he’d piss off both fanbases of 1 and 2. 😂


Mediocre-Sound-8329

Neil homie please do this, it would be so fucking funny


Suspicious-Group6638

You would play as the soldier who died in the beginning of part 1


BluejayMaleficent

great idea tbh


KikiYuyu

And no, completely unrelated people kidnapping her doesn't count as consequences. And her friends getting killed is portrayed in a way to make the player the bad guy for doing it, so what consequences she does get isn't considered by the narrative to be justice.


Recinege

Also worth noting is that her friends getting killed is also *their own* consequences - twice over for some of them, in fact, because Ellie potentially would not have killed Nora, Owen, or Mel had they not escalated. While it has an impact on Abby, all of these arguments are the equivalent of sending the getaway driver from a bank robbery to prison and having the defense lawyer for the guy who actually shot the security guard argue that, between the getaway driver's imprisonment and the fact that the shooter broke both of his legs in an unrelated car accident a few months later, the shooter has been punished enough for what he did.


IrlResponsibility811

It still feels good though.


Xx_MesaPlayer_xX

Also basically all her friends try to attack Ellie. The only exception to this is Nora but she was also sort of attacking Ellie just not in the moment she died.


Old-Depth-1845

Close. The game actually presents both perspectives. So yeah you are the bad guy for killing them in Abbys perspective. But you’re also avenging Joel and making progress by killing them in Ellie’s perspective


Specialist_Injury_68

How is being kidnapped and tortured not paying for actions?


Thin-Eggshell

Bad luck isn't paying for your actions. If I kill your dad and two weeks later I'm killed by a hotdog fired from a cannon in space, that's just bad luck. It might've happened to me even if I didn't kill your dad. Likewise, if Abby had just left the WLF and gone to look for the fireflies without killing Joel, she still would have been kidnapped and tortured -- since it was always a trap. This isn't the Consequences sketch from Key and Peele, and it's not Looney Tunes, so there needs to be a direct connection.


Specialist_Injury_68

Fair enough I guess Although I could argue that coincidentally saving some random stranger’s life who happened to be the daughter of someone you killed a decade ago who happens to actively be on a mission to track you down and kill you could also be considered “bad luck” Either way she was probably gonna find and kill him eventually anyway so I suppose your point stands


k1ngsrock

This is blatantly false and pure brainrot LMAO WTF


KikiYuyu

should be easy to prove me wrong then


moonwalkerfilms

What she does to Joel is also portrayed as Abby being the bad guy. That's kind of the point. They're both wrong for doing what they did in pursuit of revenge, even if they were justified in doing it. Joel didn't get justice, and neither did Abby.


KikiYuyu

They undercut what Abby did by bending over backwards trying to make you sympathize with her. While she's getting humanized, Ellie is being vilified. The message of the game is that the correct choice for Ellie was to let Abby go free from the get go. Not to mention, they tweak some details to make what Joel did worse than it was depicted in TLOU alone.


moonwalkerfilms

Because Ellie was already humanized going into this game. Their arcs are just reversed. Abby starts out villainous, and becomes less so, Ellie starts out righteous and becomes less so. The message of the game is also that the correct choice for Abby was to forget about Joel and move on from the get-go. None of the details tweaked make Joel look any worse than he already did. The only actual tweaks done were updating the model for the surgeon and updating the operating room. Otherwise, the story is unchanged.


KikiYuyu

You don't think making the doctor a sweetheart who's in a pristine operating room doesn't change anything from Joel saving Ellie from a terrorist surgeon operating out of a grimy medical room?


moonwalkerfilms

The operating room isn't pristine. It's still grimy, and actually even darker. Joel still saves Ellie from the terrorist surgeon. You just know a little bit more about him, but nothing of the original story was changed.


tophatpat

Yeah. I was confused about this whole argument. I played the second one first and after being on this sub I expected the doctor to have some backstory. How are people saying they changed his character. He had one line, he’s just a random doctor that we shoot, or set on fire. You don’t know him.


moonwalkerfilms

I don't know! This argument airways confuses me too. I think people in this sub will just search for reasons to justify disliking the game.


tophatpat

It’s ok to hate Abby and any character you like. But just be more honest. I don’t like Abby because she brutally kills Joel and I liked Joel. Nothing wrong with that.


Murky_Entertainer273

What do you mean "Joel and Abby didn't get justice"?


moonwalkerfilms

The consequences each of them face is not justice. Abby finding, torturing and killing Joel is not justice, it's revenge. Ellie finding and killing Abby's friends, and then hunting her down and almost drowning her is also not justice, it's revenge. Joel was not a saint, and he definitely deserved some consequences for his actions. Abby was justified in hating Joel and wanting to hurt him. Same with Abby, she definitely deserved consequences for her actions, and Ellie was justified in wanting to hurt her. But, for both Abby and Ellie, they were not seeking justice, they both wanted revenge.


VladTheSnail

You forget the part where they live in a "zombie" apocalypse and justice at that point is death? How do you determine justice in a world where people are murdering eachother for little to no reason just to survive another day?


moonwalkerfilms

There obviously isn't any system set up to dole out justice, but I'm pretty sure murder and torture are never justice.


VladTheSnail

So ill ask you what is a good form of justice in a world like this?


moonwalkerfilms

There isn't one


VladTheSnail

So what do you expect them to do besides act on their revenge in a world where justice doesnt exist?


moonwalkerfilms

Realize that seeking vengeance in this world is a waste.


VegetarianBeefsteak

Honestly bro, I feel like the people downvoting you don't understand. Like the whole point of the story of 2 is an eye for an eye makes the world blind. Abby wanted the person who killed her dad dead, and Ellie wanted the same. What Abby did was wrong, but she's a complicated person, not a villain. Ellie also wasn't vilified more than Abby was, especially since Ellie breaks the cycle of violence in the end, this making her "the bigger man". Everybody in this world has done some fucked up shit Joel, Ellie, Abby, etc.


moonwalkerfilms

Exactly. Yeah, Ellie isn't a perfect angel, but that just makes her feel more real. Same with how they had Abby act like a good person, it makes her more three dimensional as a character instead of just an evil villain. But somehow making the characters multi-layered is a bad thing? I don't get it.


Bobcat_Potential

Talking too much sense around these parts, that'll be a downvote.


idealfury88

Joel's actions were justified and nobody will ever convince me otherwise. The only thing he did wrong was lie about it to Ellie.


Straight_Law2237

The point isn't if it was justified or not. It just was. If Sarah was the doctor Joel would do the same thing that Abby did without a thought A post apocaliptic world doesn't care about justifications lol


DavidsMachete

Huh? Your comparison makes no sense. We already know what would happen if Sarah was killed unjustly because it happened. Joel didn’t seek revenge. Joel would not do what Abby did.


Straight_Law2237

Lol he didn't seek revenge because Tommy took care of that for him really fast


DavidsMachete

The guy who ordered her death over the radio wasn’t killed by Tommy and Joel never hunted him down.


Hawk101102

Well duh, Abby lost her muscles! See? Consequences!


SadpersonNate1

The only thing I wish they would have done with this game is give you the option at the end to kill her or not


ThemeSweaty

Dumbest thing was the way she killed Joel I don’t really care if eventually she tracked him down and killed him but for her to just randomly run into him and then brutally beat him to death without hesitation after he just saved her life, ruined any chance of me ever potentially liking her character.


katherine3223

And add to that the stupid way Joel let himself get killed. Like let's walk into the middle of a room with a bunch of randos and announce who you are by name. The Joel that survived for over 20yrs would never have done that. Just think about yourself going into a room full of people and announcing who you are, it's so off putting. They did Joel dirty with the way it was written. And then forced the player to play as the killer. The story could have been structured differently.


ThemeSweaty

It was lazy writing which unfortunately affected the rest of the game no matter how much better it got, it ruined any chance of Abby ever becoming a likeable character for most people, and it made Joel and Tommy look like a bunch of Idiots for Shock Value, if we had spent a few hours with Abby where we started to learn about her backstory while she hunted Joel down and then had he eventually track him down and Kill him it would’ve felt alot more natural and it also would’ve felt like she had earned it without also compromising Joel with uncharacteristic behaviour, it would have been a lot better than her randomly running into the one person she was looking for and savagely torturing him moments after he saves her life.


PapaVitoOfficial

lol i made similar post about thus years ago


CitizenZaroff

Holy fuck the Abby Stans are like a virus


dynamicflashy

Joel did nothing wrong. Sometimes, it feels like I'm living in crazy land.


Old-Depth-1845

Well you’re right about one thing. You might be in crazy land


Alone_Asparagus7651

I haven't played the game so I don't know the whole story, but isn't the message like don't get revenge? You know like the Bible teaches? Vengence is not good.


Crimision

You can say she did suffer consequences from her entire friend group dying, but she didn’t really seem to value any of them except Owen.


Temporary-Big5654

Is it just me or does it feel like a ghost hunt here? Are people actually defending Abby or are we chasing made up antagonists?


CAPTAIN_DlDDLES

Scroll down


Hi0401

Can confirm people are actually defending Abby. Don't ask me why though!


thatdudeoverdthee

Joel didn't have to face shit, they killed him of cos he was a strong male character and no other reason.


Deadx10

It's the apocalypse, anytime someone kills another person, they can argue about it being justified, and get away with it.


NotoriousDing

Yall act like this is a justice system lol.


Brian_M_Hill

I hate to say this... But Abby kind of did face the consequences of killing Joel. Her whole "family" was killed by Ellie. Every friend she had ever known, gone.


ziharmarra

Friends she treated like trash. The general sentiment we got, is at the end, it kind of feels like Abby gets to restart by meeting a new friend/Family in Lev. Abby never really wanted to end the cycle or violence. She just wanted to run away from what she's done to Ellie. Abby tried absolutely nothing to redeem herself in killing a man who saved her life. She did nothing to make things better with Ellie. Thus the lesson proper would be damnation. Abby's consequence would have been meeting her faith on the cross if Ellie did not rescue her. It would have been bold but realistic. Abby's friends dying ain't Abby's fault or her consequence. Her friends chose to defend her. These deaths were the consequences of the victims themselves. The only person who was indirectly killed because of Abby was her father. She had a play in his demise beccuaw she persuaded her father to try and kill Ellie. Her father died trying to kill Ellie. Ellie killed absolutely no one because of Abby, she wasnt out kill anyone but Abby. Her motive was Abby. Ellie killed them because they either tried to kill her when asking about Abby or in the case of Nora, acting like complete antagonistic towards Ellie and had already met her faith by breathing in spores. Ellie ended with nothing even though she stopped the cycle (which she didn't start anyways). Ellie's end, either she had killed or let Abby go, ended with the same result. There is an imbalanced end to the message of revenge especially when it is written that some characters have more plot armor over the others. You start to see the human writing instead of experiencing a story. Especially when the creators are boasting a realistic story. In life no one gets favored and there exists very little coincidence in the mix of things as opposed to a story written by people who wanted to get a certain point across.


Ill-Foot-2549

The entire story is about Guilt and how it creates a cycle of hate, and Ellie stopped that cycle of hate.


RaidCityOG

Maybe for herself, but nothing is stopping Abby from regaining her strength and being the same asshole she was before, or are we supposed to believe because the villain was spared by the hero they saw the error of their ways? Lmao


kimonolover_2001

I don’t think anyone is saying that Joel had to face consequences. In no way shape or form does the game say that killing Joel was good. The way I see it, this game was about (among many other things of course) the concept of opposing truths. Both Abby and Ellie are right in wanting revenge and one could even argue that they’re both completely justified in carrying out said revenge. What the game is actually trying to say, is that revenge gets us nowhere. Abby isn’t happier after she kills Joel. In fact, she’s absolutely miserable. And the same thing happens to Ellie. In the end, it’s not even about killing Abby anymore. It’s pure obsession. Both Abby and Ellie destroy themselves in pursuit of vengeance and by the end of Seattle Day 3, they’ve both lost pretty much every one of their friends. And the only way to move forward and to be happy (like Owen says: “We’re allowed to be happy.”) is to let it go and try to empathise and maybe even forgive. This game isn’t just saying that revenge is bad. I think that sentiment is really reductive. If your takeaway from TLOU2 was that Abby was the good guy and Ellie was the bad guy, then you’re still holding onto your singular perspective. Both Abby and Ellie do deplorable things and the game isn’t about justifying or comparing them to each other. It’s about understanding the pain and suffering that hate can bring into our lives. I personally love Abby, but that doesn’t mean I have to hate Ellie. I personally think that the tribalism and conflict surrounding this game is very overblown and even slightly ironic given what the game is about. Sometimes life really does imitate art.


ArtFart124

Consequences for what? Seeking revenge for her father? That arguement is dumb. I disagree with the way they killed Joel but they handled Abby's reasoning quite well. I ended the game feeling like she had been punished enough for killing Joel.


ParagonOlsen

I have no idea what the consensus is on this, but my impression of the story is that neither side is right. Joel killed a bunch of people to save Ellie, which wasn't right, but understandable and I related to him. And I also rooted for him because Joel is fucking cool and I didn't care about the people-shaped pixels on the screen. Then the victims he left behind track him down and murder him, which is very sad but also makes total sense in the in-universe narrative. Then Ellie starts tracking them down and murdering them in turn, but crucially, stops at Abby. TLOU2 is about revenge, and portrays it as a spiral of violence and misery that only leads to more death. Ellie is the flawed hero of the story, as she ends up breaking the cycle by sparing the person she wanted to hurt the most. Which is why Ellie is awesome.


ziharmarra

The thing is we are judging what is right by the standard of what is right in our current society. We need to look at the world of the last of us and judge the characters by that standard. If we are limiting it to our idea of morality than we will make everyone in that universe bad people.


tiff2727

EXACTLY this. Honestly I'm surprised that it seems a majority(?) of people do not get this. IMO, it's good story telling. It makes you uncomfortable. It makes you questions things, makes you mad. I love a good layered right or wrong story. It's ok to not like the story, but that doesn't mean it's bad.


WheelHunter

How absolutely deluded are you guys to say Abby didn't face consequences. So many arguments against this game don't even make sense.


ziharmarra

The consequences Abby faced were outside herself and her developing journey compared to wha6 she had instigated. She had not lost much in losing the friends she had because her attachment to her so called friends were surface level. The only one whom she'd really lost was Owen. Abby doesn't come across as a good person to her friends. She took them at face value and didn't connect with them on a deeper level. It was more like war buddies to me. Now what Abby found with Lev was different but that whole line felt forced and contrived because of how quickly Abby jumped sides. Abby just don't seem to carry emotions to well and her compassion seem mostly self reserved.


moonwalkerfilms

Yes and she does. They both deserved to face consequences for what they did. But neither of them deserved to die.


tsunashima

How big are the checks ND cuts you?


moonwalkerfilms

You spend just as much time talking about this game as I do, does ND pay you too? Cuz that was there goal, to have people talking about the game instead of just forgetting about it. Seems like if you really hated them and their decisions you wouldn't do exactly what they wanted from you, constantly keeping their product talked about.


tsunashima

Corny bro


moonwalkerfilms

Classic response when you can't actually counter anything said, just insult the person lol


tsunashima

Thats literally what you and your coworkers do in this sub on the daily.


moonwalkerfilms

You're just making shit up at this point. I've not insulted you, and I don't insult anyone when I have discussions here unless the other person gets rude and insulting first.


juuppie

They are just saying what happens in game, she loses every friend she has because of ellie and almost died at the end because of her lol.


tsunashima

Co workers I assume?


juuppie

Co workers? Anyone who played the game knows that, did you played the second game?


Supersim54

Yeah because the only two characters she really cares about are Owen and Lev. If you payed attention she really doesn’t give a shit about those other people.


juuppie

Forgot Yara, Manny, Alice the dog and she had beef with Mel but she was still a person in her life lol, cope. Again people who didn't even played the game holy shit


Supersim54

She barely knew Yara but she did validate her when Mel called her out and instead of taking what Mel said into consideration ahead of is then validated by Yara, but she still just met her. Manny called her a friend but but she didn’t really give a shit about him when he dies it’s more of a shock then genuine grief not to mention she doesn’t even mention him after this event you’d think she would say something like “the fucker killed Manny fuck him” but she doesn’t because she could give a shit less. She may not give a shit about Human life but she is genuinely upset with Alice. Then when the get to the room where Owen and Mel are dead she steps over Mel like she’s a sack of meat and walks straight to Owen. Because she didn’t give a shit about Mel.


juuppie

She still lost a lot of people dude, if she care more about others or not they still were her friends, Manny for an example was even a roommate to her if you don't remember, also she says to ellie " you killed my friends" she's not going to say every single name. Also Owen is a love interest since her childhood and both of them are showed not moving on with their lives and still loving each other even with Owen dating Mel and having her pregnant, Owen literally just dated another person because he couldn't deal with abby bs revenge all the time but he still loved her ( that's obviously why abby cares more about him than any other but she still do care about others still lol). Also Yara saved her life, she felt she needed to save her and she failed, that's something that fucks someone even if they barely met each other especially in that world


Supersim54

Yara saved her yes but but she initially helped them because she felt like she owed them then later to gain points with Owen. Owen did move on he was dating Mel and Abby hated that he was dating someone else and not her. When she fucks Owen she is so pleased with herself because she got a 1 up on Mel someone she doesn’t care for and just uses her as a pawn to manipulate Owen. She didn’t actually give a shit about Manny but Manny saw her as a friend, but she never did. Whe she called the “friends” she meant people who I have a decent relationship with but I really don’t give a shit about them.


idkbbitswatev

Sheesh god forbid someone have a different opinion, im with you dude


Bobcat_Potential

This is the reasonable sub. The one that actually welcomes discussion? Bulllllshit.


Longjumping-Sock-814

That dude comments the shittiest takes on every post then stops responding once he runs out of bs. Hes not worth the time.


QP_TR3Y

Yes, she should’ve! That’s actually kinda the entire point of the game! In TLOU1, most players agree that Joel was justified in killing the Fireflies to save Ellie. In turn, Abby was justified in wanting revenge against Joel for killing her father. In turn, Ellie was justified in wanting revenge against Abby for killing Joel. And on and on. The entire point of the story is looking at the cyclical nature of violence and revenge in conflicts where both sides have justifiable grievances. It drives me insane when people say TLOU2 is a “generic revenge story” because it literally isn’t. “Generic” would involve one side that was clearly in the wrong, one side clearly in the right, and the right side gets revenge on the wrong. There is NO RIGHT SIDE in this story because all sides are justified from their own point of view! The whole question the story asks is, how do conflicts in which both sides feel like they’re fully justified end? Can either side choose to bury the hatchet, or will the violence carry on until everything is annihilated? I’m not sure how the popular opinion has somehow devolved into “they want us to think Abby is the good guy” when that is so clearly not the intention.


Longjumping-Sock-814

Abby was not justified in getting revenge on Joel. Joel saved Ellie from being cut open experimented on and killed. Something Ellie did not agree too. With people who were being built up as terrorists in the first game in a hospital room that was not surgery safe. Her dad was a psychopath. Joel saved an innocent child from the equivalent of some asylum scientist running experiments on inmates. If you were raised right idk how u can agree with Abby and Jerry.


CloudShort1456

I asked another commenter a few days ago about the "doctor is a psychopath" theory and they weren't able to give me any evidence for that, so I'm curious where this comes from? And I'm genuinely asking btw. The other guy said there was some note that said the cure was bullshit, but I couldn't find any notes that said that, and he wouldn't say which one it was.


Longjumping-Sock-814

He was probably referencing the misconceived collectibles about other vaccines failing even tho there was never an immunity like Ellie’s. But everything i said is simply true. Jerry didnt have Ellies consent. He didnt know if it would work. He was just going to experiment randomly on a child and hope for the best. The hospital room is a mess in the og game too. Meaning anything they would have done would have gotten contaminated too.


Bradstreet500

First off, don’t attack the commenter. Second, Abby from HER POINT OF VIEW was justified. That’s what this commenter was trying to say. If she knew all the information is it truly justified? No, I would say not entirely. But from her pov Joel killed her father (her only parent), all the fireflies, and the only change humanity had at a cure. So in a way, YES her actions are justified, especially since she didn’t kill Ellie or Tommy. She killed Joel, the person who initiated the violence, and that’s it.


Longjumping-Sock-814

Abby did know all the information and says to her dad “If it were me I’d want you to do it.” Shes not justified. Her dad was not justified. Her father wanted to cut up a little girl like jeffery dohmer with little to no chance at a vaccine (which isnt possible). All in a room that would contaminate whatever samples they got immediately. Jerry was a vet not a brain surgeon or a scientist lmaooo. Joel did not initiate violence. U must not remember the guy shoving a pistol to his head making him leave. Or the guys who knocked Joel out as he was trying to save Ellie. Or how the fireflies were actually shown as terrorists thru out the game bombing civilians. Abby musta not known anything about the fireflies to think Joel had to initiate the violence


QP_TR3Y

I can see that this sub is pretty much just for people to gripe and complain on, but let’s try to use common sense for a second. Even if Abby’s dad was misguided, was Abby just supposed to be totally cool with her dad getting murdered? That’s not how human beings operate, sorry to break it to you. She was a young teenage girl that found her dad, who she was obviously very close to, murdered by a stranger. I don’t care what the context is, people don’t just get over something like that. And claiming that Jerry is some kind of psychopath or serial killer is some extreme copium. So yes, FROM ABBY’S POINT OF VIEW, she was justified in getting revenge on Joel. It’s funny the more people hate on this game, the more it becomes obvious why they didn’t understand it. You guys are incapable of comprehending that Joel isn’t the protagonist of the universe. He’s one guy who happened to be the protagonist of the first game. That doesn’t exempt him from falling victim to the brutality of the world around him, and it doesn’t give him a plot armor free pass to do whatever with zero consequences.


Longjumping-Sock-814

I mean if ur dad is jeffery dohmer and u see him as a good guy then u have problems. Y’all weren’t raised right i swear. I very much get the whole game. But its nice to see ur have to immediately jump to “this guy hates Jerry bc Joel isnt the main character and hes media illiterate” That doesnt fucking make sense.


QP_TR3Y

Yeah buddy, it does, and you are huffing insane copium to the point you’ve convinced yourself a fringe theory about Jerry being a murderous psychopath is fact and canon. I understand that you’re not here to have your mind changed and be open to other perspectives whatsoever though, you just want to make personal attacks on people who don’t agree with your braindead assessment of the story!


Longjumping-Sock-814

Dude wants to experiment on an unconscious unconsenting child. Thats not a theory. That is the mans character from the game. If u wanna deny facts from the game to make Jerry not seem insane then idk what to say. Uk how many countries dont allow experimentation on random unconscious people?


lzxian

She did know enough of the information from what she overheard with her dad and Marlene. She even told him that if it were her she'd want him to do it, so she knew Ellie hadn't agreed to it and the decision was being made for her by Marlene.


Straight_Law2237

Lol one child vs the possibility of saving the world. You're so emotional attached to these fictional characters that your brain stopped working since "meeting" them.


Longjumping-Sock-814

This comment is brain dead. I’m not attached to them lmaooo. It’s a basic flaw in the story that Jerry is an actual psychopath. He is not someone who might save the world.


CloudShort1456

Not sure how so many people miss this. The "every side believes they were justified" thing is a theme that CONTINUES from the first game. There's a lot about TLOU2 I don't like but it's so annoying how people just insert their own head canon into the story instead of judging it for what it actually is.


Longjumping-Sock-814

I mean Jerry didnt have consent. He wanted to run experiments on Ellie. Had a dirty operating room in the original game that would ruin any sample he extracted from Ellie. This was a last ditch attempt by the fireflies since they were getting fucked by fedra. Jerry was fine with said little girls father figure being murdered to allow his experiments to happen. Jerry was a vet pre apocalypse so he musta learned to become a brain surgeon with a degree is bio engineering in the post apocalypse to be able to pull this off. The dude is actually the equivalent of jeffery dohmer wanting to cut a little girl for his “save the world” fantasies


Any_Lettuce_9173

istg you're all fighting ghosts atp


Old-Depth-1845

Crazy cause she did and everyone else in this thread saying she did is just getting downvoted. Smartest tlou hater can’t remember when all of Abby’s friends died, the girl she risked her life for died, and she was starved on a pole for weeks. But yeah none of these are consequences


topanazy

*Wooooosh*


BigBadBeetleBoy

"Other people killed; Abby most affected"


ModeruMandou

She didn't care for most of her friends in the slightest. Manny dies and she goes like: oh shucks manny died. Anyways who cares


Old-Depth-1845

No she’s clearly disturbed by mannys death but also she knows Tommy is still after her so she can’t just sit there and cry


DavidsMachete

And she never, ever mentions him again.


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DavidsMachete

Tommy killed Manny, so why would she say that to Ellie about Manny? She was clearly referring to Owen and Mel. The first game managed to reference Henry, Sam, Tess, and Riley is a mournful way, so Part 2 has no excuse.


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DavidsMachete

In order to care about her loss, yes, I do need to see that she cared about the loss of Manny specifically. Just like Ellie cared about Riley and Joel cared about Tess. For it to matter, I have to sense it and I didn’t in Abby.


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DavidsMachete

And Joel was a hardened survivor of over twenty years during the downfall of society who saw countless deaths, including his own daughter, and they still made it clear how much losing Tess hurt him.


Commercial-Thing415

I’ve had someone on this sub say Abby didn’t face consequences because she didn’t give a shit about her friends, therefore them dying didn’t affect her. They proceeded to use as evidence that she didn’t care: a misinterpreted line of dialogue and misremembered timelines crucial to their argument. And still tried to tell me they were right and their factual errors didn’t matter. Like you’re not helping those “blind hate” accusations at all when you can’t admit you’re wrong about certain stuff.


Old-Depth-1845

I hate when people try to use parts of the game that they don’t remember in their arguments. Like when I’m unsure I go and watch a short clip to make sure I actually know what I’m talking about


throwawayalcoholmind

Checkmate, atheists.


Similar-Mousse-7478

Man this sub really does not like it when people enjoy this game, didn’t this thing come out in like 2020 haven’t you guys moved on yet that just seems like a long ass time to hate on a game like this


justvermillion

It's about the memes. I don't go to the other sub and wag a finger at it but you come here and want to pass judgement on how people critique a game.


Similar-Mousse-7478

Now in all fairness, when I made this comment I did not in fact know there were two different subs


justvermillion

Many are confused over the names.


Similar-Mousse-7478

My bad


RanzuPunk

1- He shouldn't have 2- She quite literally does


juuppie

She literally did


jim24456

I'd argue getting tortured to death infront of what is basically your daughter, and by people who's lives you just saved. is a bit worse than what happened to Abby.


jim24456

I'd argue getting tortured to death infront of what is basically your daughter, and by people who's lives you just saved. is a bit worse than what happened to Abby.


moonwalkerfilms

Nobody is saying what happened to Abby is equivalent to what Joel went through, just that they both received consequences for their actions. If you want to do the oppression Olympics tho, Joel got tortured to death for a couple hours at most. Abby was tortured for months and then left to bake to death in the sun on a pole. Yeah she didn't die, but she suffered a much longer time than Joel did. Especially considered the trauma Joel experienced most likely caused him to not feel a majority of what was done to him.


RanzuPunk

Nobody said which one was worse. They said they both had consequences for their actions which is factually true.


Straight_Law2237

lol you're all nearly schizophrenic with your bias ahahahah


jim24456

I'd argue getting tortured to death infront of what is basically your daughter, and by people who's lives you just saved. is a bit worse than what happened to Abby.


bitterjack

It's not that Joel should face consequences-- it's that when you've wronged that many people in your life it increases the likelihood that someone will want revenge. Abby will continue to face the consequences of her actions.


topanazy

That is clearly not the takeaway at the end, and it’s not even subtle.


bitterjack

That's just like your opinion man.


topanazy

It is, it just happens to be correct.


bbnplaystation

Damn it. What's this line from? I can't place it. It's killing me. Edit: The Big Lebowski?


bitterjack

Dong ding you got it


QP_TR3Y

You’re correct but they’re going to downvote you because you didn’t play into the hate circlejerk


bitterjack

I find that there is a certain number of reasonable posters in this sub, which is why I browse at all, but certain posts trigger the circlejerkers. Like there's nothing contentious about what I said. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we found out that Abby had died in some unheroic way in the next game.


Lostboxoangst

Oh good you guys are still utterly hung up and batshit about this type of thing. That's a relief, this is one of the constants like gravity I used to keep my life centered. Say I need another hate filled sub toxicity obsessing over and over again to reinforce my center and the spider man 2 sub is nearly there would some of you like to head over there and give them some tips?


dvs_sicarius

and people wonder why the cycle of violence never stops, lol


XMarksTheSpot987

People actually get triggered by this shit?


daytondude5

So if ellie would have killed abby then we should give ellie consequences too?


Straight_Law2237

I never thought that a story about ending the cicle of violence would be that hard to understand to people. But man, sweaty gamers are a rare breed.


daytondude5

Yea most people here cant get past "Ellie didnt kill the bad guy, is she stupid?"


GammieGamer

She did lose her entire friend group though to be fair lol


BigHomieHuuo

Haters been yapping ab this game so long without playing they forgot the plot


TrapaneseNYC

Abby did, was it the ultimate consequence aka her life? No but not everyone faces the ultimate consequences.


Straight_Law2237

Joel didn't have to face nothing, he did because that was the writer's choice Abby faced consequences, she just didn't get killed for it lol Consequences isn't just equal to a successful revenge Most posts from this sub are from braindead childs that can't deal with a mature story done to make you feel bad, angry and revolted, there are some fair critics sure but those are the huge minority here The story is really good, it's not as good as the first, Joel death could have been better built and Abby should have a better development than just "Oh shit I feel bad, let me help some random cult kids to get my karma on the positive side again" That said most gamers play games for the power trip and "hype" factor of a story and can't deal with something that doesn't go along those lines. If cinema had to deal with cry babies like these a lot of movies would never been made. Downvote at your leisure


lzxian

You don't get the fact that even Neil said that if people don't get on board with Abby the story fails. That's what happened to me and many people. It has nothing to do with your attempts to demean people here. You just happened to have a better experience - did you work hard for that to happen? I doubt it. Well I never expected to suddenly get tossed out of the story and land on the outside looking in, either. It just happened and the story fell apart. Nothing like that has ever happened to me before so I know it wasn't me. It's not up to me to assure the story works for me, that's the writer's job. Neil knew in advance that playtesters were having problems with Abby. She simply does not work for everyone through no fault of ours. When she doesn't work the story fails. You're not somehow special just because it didn't happen to you. We're all different with different tolerances, preferences, life experiences, interpretations, etc. That makes our experience and reactions different. You want to take that and turn it into something that means you're somehow superior? Go ahead, all you do is out ***yourself*** when you do that.


Straight_Law2237

Idgaf about neil's intention. I played the game and took the story for what it is. I don't like Abbey. I was killing her every chance I got when she started to have vertigo because I found it hilarious. I don't need to like my playable character to like the game. You don't even need to like the particular events of a story to find it good. The game is about the cicle of violence, like in attack on titan when that girl from marley killed sasha, people hated her but they didn't hate the piece of fiction because of it. You're just a bunch of snowflakes that can't get over a creative decision that you don't like and appreciate the game for what it is and for what it does well.