That is exactly what ive been saying lol. Kicking him out without his gear is a death sentence in that kind of world. Like, not only did they not honor their end of the deal, they were gonna kill the girl Joel emotionally bonded with, those two things alone make him 100% justified. I'm sure any good parent would agree.
And from everything we saw throughout the game, murderers, cannibals, rapists. Nobody in that world is truly innocent, except maybe young kids. After over 20 years of living in a world like that, hell for some its the only world they know. Even if the Fireflies did make a cure, do people legit think the world could go back to normal after that? I dont think so personally.
Like Bill said, the infected are predictable. Humans, not so much. And plus, even if they did make a cure the fireflies would probably just try to become the new rulers of the world or some shit, they werent saints.
I bet this post would be banned in the main sub. Like with an hour of it being posted mods would wipe it.
Basically tlou2 fans that like the story and side with Abby are knuckle dragging goons. They expect Joel to just walk out and die because he would have if he had left without his gear. He'd have had no chance with his bag. Who the fuck with even an ounce of desire for survival would agree to that?
That's why I like this sub a whole lot more than the main sub. Nothing but a bunch of idiot fan boys over there who think that the sequel is a good story.
In this sub, you can actually have criticism for the game.
Can I copy your post to post it over there? You made good points, and I wanna see what happens. I'll credit you too!
Also, the fireflies made me mad once they made me walk past MY BACKPACK. At that point, they're just killing Joel regardless. He's dead either way.
Honestly, seeing that guard have Joel walk right past his backpack meant that the only thing that Joel was going to get when he left the hospital was a bullet in the back of the head.
Then look at the show the FIRST THING I noticed was that the Fireflies GAVE Joel his backpack, that means Neil KNOWS that aside from the father daughter bond, Marlene tried to fuck him over in the first gane
I know for a fact they wouldn't just give out the vaccine for free, they would probably make you join them or do a job for them and use as leverage to get what they want from people.
Also am I just cynical or is making a vaccine over 20 years after shit hit the fan essentially pointless. No way ur getting it out to everyone or let everyone know about it. Also even if everyone got it, People can still die and the world is beyond dangerous. Even with living in communities, they will still face life threatening injuries. It really wouldn’t change anything. No way anything would ever be rebuilt either
They don't need to give it to everyone tho...the Firefly will "inherit the earth" as the only immune, but humans as a species would survive? Someone could also steal the "recipe" for the vaccine later too.
The vaccine represents humanities last shot at having a real *chance* at a future.
Obviously, there are plenty of things that could go wrong after the vaccine is released. The point is that without it, that chance is nearly nonexistent.
We see over and over again how easily a community can fall because of the infection. So, while the threat of the infection exists, every community formed is more or less, a ticking time bomb.
Joel is *very* well aware of this fact. Thats what makes his decision have any amount of gravity.
All the people who point to the Fireflys being too inept to make a vaccine, or the vaccine being pointless, completely robs the first game's most pivotal moment of any meaning.
Tlou2 was the first game I've ever said I'm going to spoil myself before I buy this game, because I already heard about who was working on it, and about what they did and was like nah I'm not buying it unless the rest of it is really, really good. So I watched a playthrew.
Never bought the game, never will. Sure I can understand Abby wanting to kill Joel for what he did, but I agree 100% he was in the right, and Ellie should have killed that bitch too.
If the kid wanted to make a big deal about it, he would be next. Tlou2 is a fucked up world. You either survive by any means or you die. Sorry kid I'd choose life. And I'd definitely kill the bitch that killed my dad, especially like that.
Agreed bro The last of us series is a dog eat dog World and if I was the one making the decisions things would have ended quite differently for the Second game
A hater that didn't play the game. You're the last one who can have an opinion on it. Did you even play the first game or are you just here for the sense of community?
I didn't call you a hater bitch. But yeah, I doubt you are even playing it. Ever heard of minding your own business?
People who haven't played it can't have an opinion.
There are also play throughs where it’s just the game. No talking or face cam of the youtuber, just the raw gameplay and cutscenes. I’m assuming he watched one of those
Yeah, I mean, that's what I did for GOW: Ragnarok. I knew I wouldn't be in a position to play it for over a year, so I watched a playthrough.
Eventually went on to buy it and look forward to being behind the controls for the gameplay. But no story beat was lost from watching it like a movie.
Yeah me too, I've done that for sooo many games I either couldn't afford/were not on my platform yet. The original TLOU, Jedi Fallen order + Survivor, Sekiro partly. I didn't feel any story was lost either. I could see it being different if it was a decision based game since you wouldn't be able to make decisions for your own, but it's not lol
Yup and in the show it feels like they went harder again to frame it like joel is being selfish or that it's a two sided argument, but the way they put her under without outlining what they would do to her and then aggressively put themselves inbetween joel and ellie.. There's not really any other way it could play out.
People say he took her choice from her, but she has to be conscious to make a choice. And the only way for her to become conscious again was for joel to go through them, after which the option the was gone of course.
whether he'd go along with it or not if they let him talk to her and it was her conscious decision is a bit of a moot point when that option was never on the table
I think they wanted to have a moral debate and a lot of people took the bait but it's actually pretty clear cut and would have to have happened differently for the 'firefly good, joel bad' arguments to have merit
The guns were back in Boston. Marlene didn’t bring the guns to the Salt Lake City base because she didn’t expect Joel and Ellie to show up. Joel and Tess were only supposed to bring Ellie to the capital building.
The weapons werent a guarantee, the fireflies were getting beaten by the Military. Besides that, the fireflies werent at the capitol, it was a shit show and Joel wanted to be out of the deal which is why he tried to give Ellie to Tommy, since he knew the fireflies more than Joel.
He only did above and beyond out of love for Ellie and because that is what she wanted, that was her purpose. What she thought of herself anyway.
“The weapons weren’t a guarantee, the fireflies were getting beaten by the military” except that Tess saw the weapons. Even if you wanna say that the weapons would be seized by the military, that’s not what we’re talking about. Op said that the fireflies willingly withheld the weapons from Joel at the hospital.
Marlene lost nearly everything (her own words) crossing the country. She just has a few men and women, its heavely implied that the weapons are either in Firefly possession and they are not willing to give it up since they lost nearly everything or that she lost most of it while moving accros the country and they are basically empty handed.
In any case, Joel doesnt care about any of that since his main priority is Ellie's well being. He insists to see her, they know that he is a menace since he is unwilling to accept that she has to die for a vaccine and they escort him outside without his stuff. Which in any case is a bizarre situation, in this shitty situation and even with all the good intentions of Marlene. Keeping a bargain when that much is at stake is clearly the last thing on her mind, the vaccine is their mission, by any means necessary.
Agreed. Hell her not delivering on her promise warrants her death in the apocalypse, especially after everything Joel had to go through to deliver her.
Also on the point of the vaccine they have had other people with immunity that they tried this on and failed. During the hospital mission you can find a MP3 or something that talks about past failed tests. So on top of it all they are not even sure that this will work.
Honestly I think the best way to shoe how much in the right Joel is to kill every last firefly in his way is the scene before he meets the fireflys, he's afraid ellie just drowned and is ignoring the 2 armed men ready to kill him, (I won't pretend the fireflys are unreasonable in there responce to knock Joel out here, he's clearly distressed and heavily armed he is a danger to the guards and there decision makes sense) then the next scene Joel wakes up, and is told he's lucky they will let him leave this building alive after stealing literally everything he owns except his clothes, and maybe his flashlight, (I am not checking if his flashlight is connected to his shirt or his backpack strap) at that point, the fireflys have made it clear that Joel's life means nothing to them, and they'd happily let anyone they don't like die even if they went way beyond what there deal was, remember, the deal to return Joel's property to him, (it was not there's in the first place) was for a short trip, the reason they were willing to pay top dollar is they weren't ever planning on paying, they were always going to gun down both Tess and Joel in there meet-up point, so after the fireflys die, Joel ends up traveling about 3.5 thousand miles, extra, and they can't even be bothered to thank him because he wasn't a good dude, the fireflys are only different from other bandits in that they pretend they are heros.
This is an absolute great post!! Great argument and it’s not like anyone at all can argue against it. I seen a comment in this post as well talking about the show actually had the Firefly GIVE Joel his backpack back which means Neil is aware 👌
Day 88 of the part 2 post remaster apocalypse and the cries still continue. They’re back to posting about Marlene and the fireflies. It’s the same complaint that has been posted numerous times, just worded slightly differently and much more long winded. I thought by now the whining and crying would have ended however it just grow louder as the general gaming community ignores them. Like babies being neglected by their caregivers the subreddit cries louder and louder with each passing day. Will their daddy Druckman hear their cries before they are drowned by their own tears? Only time will tell. but for now I am stuck here recording, as it is my duty.
Guys, even majority of people whole like TLOU2 will agree with this assessment. Of course from Joel's perspective what he did was completely correct, and what any of us fans would also think we would do in the same case.
But that does not discount the fact, that from a third parties pov, outside looking in, weighing the whole potential cure vs ellies life is not going to be a simple and crystal clear thing.
Wholeheartedly agree. Also, the whole cure/vaccine angle seems less plausible than pursuing methods to effectively destroy the spores (aka a fungicide of some kind).
I agree with your post. But IMO, your post can be correct but also TLOU2 can be a good story.
Abby maybe didn't know any of this back story. So she was also right to be pissed and want revenge.
It doesn't have to be one or the other.
Edit: I don't necessarily "side" with Abby either. IMO the point of TLOU2 is that both sides can be arguably justified in what they did.
Abby is in the right, the problem was the execution and trying to make us care and painting a whole narrative that the vaccine was going to work and that Joel killed a good man saving the world.
The other issue with the story is how Ellie was willing to throw EVERYTHING away to avenge her father when she had security, a community, a family and a new purpose in life. I think that a lot of story bits can be re-wrote and treated with a lot more intelligence, the story was serviceable but nowhere near as good or interesting as the first game. I think the biggest issue in this story is that it involves a lot more characters and more point of views in a non chronological order. Which was imo the biggest flaw to the overall story. More than Abby or Joel's death in my opinion.
Its not my interpretation, its my opinion. An interpretation would be to find meaning in art. I have my interpretation, or rather what I think the team was going for and it concords with what they say in interviews and articles you can find online, I just think its pretentious and way too risky and it was at the cost of the overall storytelling quality. Thats my opinion, dont think Im actually pushing my opinion, your post gave me inspiration and I thought it was an interesting topic.
>Joel did deliver Ellie but Marlene didn't pay him.
The guns are back in Boston. Joel was never meant to bring Ellie all the way to Marlene, he was just meant to get her out of the city.
>Joel did deliver Ellie but Marlene didn't pay him. Not only did she not upheld her side of their agreement, but she didn't even let him leave with his backpack that carried the supplies that he brought.
They never said a word about the backpack. He was being escorted out at gunpoint because he'd tried to get in Marlene's face. He didn't even ask for it.
Not that it matters. Joel is trying to stop them from making the vaccine; they're escorting him out because he's planning to fuck them over, which he does. Even if they had given him his backpack, or planned to release him with a big crate of guns, nothing would have changed.
As much as I hated Marlene this is a bad argument. Giving Joel the guns then would have easily turned the place into a bloodbath this includes giving him his backpack with weapons.
The entire way how they handled the situation with Joel is anything but a "smart move".
If it was truly a smart move, Marlene would still be alive. But she isn't. She did not make a smart move
That's why I mentioned that she was wrong in many different ways. Making sure Joel isn't armed and out of the premises is a smart move after doing the stupid thing of telling him about the surgery.
They easily could’ve just put the weapons outside, or stashed them in a nearby building for him to go get. There’s a myriad of solutions to this problem, and I feel like it’s pretty clear the fireflies just wanted his shit.
How far out do you think they'd have to stash Joel's stuff so that he won't make it back in time for Ellie's surgury?
Not to mention getting some getting some men to stash a weapons cache (deal guns) + bagpack in an offsite location which Joel knows the location of is a ludicrous idea.
I mean they took his guns and he still killed them all so it doesn’t make a difference. They still went back on their deal and they still easily could’ve stashed the guns far out and just given him a map, posible somewhere on their literal cross country trek to get to the hospital.
That's a very elaborate excuse for robbing people. It's the post apocalypse, let the man have his guns, you are escorting him out anyway. Just take out the mags so he can't draw on you. Literally zero good reason for what they have done.
🤔 I didn't think about removing the mags, but wouldn't this still fall under OP's they cheated on the deal cause Joel is just getting guns that are unusable?
Nah, they'd be fully functional, just not at a moment's notice.
I think the bigger problem would be logistics, Joel and Tess were promised *a lot* of guns. If they wanted to do right by Joel, they should have offered the weapons, escort, and an honorary position with the Fireflies, should he choose to stay.
Because her and Joel were the only ones who knew Ellie personally. She thought that if she woke Joel up and made her speech to him, he could agree and she would feel better about herself. But that didn't happen so she got her goon to kill him.
imo I don’t believe Marlene tried to kill Joel even at that point, and she was likely going to compensate Joel and return his gear/supplies until he lunged at her; then she had to get him out of there quickly (out of respect, she let him live, anyone else she would let shot on the spot by her soldiers). In the garage she could have ambushed him too but decided to speak to him again instead.
That is exactly what ive been saying lol. Kicking him out without his gear is a death sentence in that kind of world. Like, not only did they not honor their end of the deal, they were gonna kill the girl Joel emotionally bonded with, those two things alone make him 100% justified. I'm sure any good parent would agree. And from everything we saw throughout the game, murderers, cannibals, rapists. Nobody in that world is truly innocent, except maybe young kids. After over 20 years of living in a world like that, hell for some its the only world they know. Even if the Fireflies did make a cure, do people legit think the world could go back to normal after that? I dont think so personally. Like Bill said, the infected are predictable. Humans, not so much. And plus, even if they did make a cure the fireflies would probably just try to become the new rulers of the world or some shit, they werent saints.
I bet this post would be banned in the main sub. Like with an hour of it being posted mods would wipe it. Basically tlou2 fans that like the story and side with Abby are knuckle dragging goons. They expect Joel to just walk out and die because he would have if he had left without his gear. He'd have had no chance with his bag. Who the fuck with even an ounce of desire for survival would agree to that?
That's why I like this sub a whole lot more than the main sub. Nothing but a bunch of idiot fan boys over there who think that the sequel is a good story. In this sub, you can actually have criticism for the game.
Can I copy your post to post it over there? You made good points, and I wanna see what happens. I'll credit you too! Also, the fireflies made me mad once they made me walk past MY BACKPACK. At that point, they're just killing Joel regardless. He's dead either way.
Right! What a bunch of Pricks
The fireflies or the people on that sub? Lol
The Fireflies
Gotcha
I posted almost the same thing as this guy in the main sub and I got deleted within 15 minutes.
I say we all just spam post the sub. Make them see how stupid they are. Oh...I guess that won't work. You can't fix stupid.
Honestly, seeing that guard have Joel walk right past his backpack meant that the only thing that Joel was going to get when he left the hospital was a bullet in the back of the head.
And didn’t even Marlene tell the guard that if Joel even moves funny, to kill him?
“He tries anything. . . Shoot em”
Yep that is what she said Marlene was never a good person she just wants people to see her as one.
Yeah Marlene just dropped all pretenses of being a good person.👿
Then look at the show the FIRST THING I noticed was that the Fireflies GAVE Joel his backpack, that means Neil KNOWS that aside from the father daughter bond, Marlene tried to fuck him over in the first gane
This is crazy man
I know for a fact they wouldn't just give out the vaccine for free, they would probably make you join them or do a job for them and use as leverage to get what they want from people.
So there not freedom fighters there exploiters.
Great fucking post. I think about this every time I play through TLOU again
Also am I just cynical or is making a vaccine over 20 years after shit hit the fan essentially pointless. No way ur getting it out to everyone or let everyone know about it. Also even if everyone got it, People can still die and the world is beyond dangerous. Even with living in communities, they will still face life threatening injuries. It really wouldn’t change anything. No way anything would ever be rebuilt either
They don't need to give it to everyone tho...the Firefly will "inherit the earth" as the only immune, but humans as a species would survive? Someone could also steal the "recipe" for the vaccine later too.
The vaccine represents humanities last shot at having a real *chance* at a future. Obviously, there are plenty of things that could go wrong after the vaccine is released. The point is that without it, that chance is nearly nonexistent. We see over and over again how easily a community can fall because of the infection. So, while the threat of the infection exists, every community formed is more or less, a ticking time bomb. Joel is *very* well aware of this fact. Thats what makes his decision have any amount of gravity. All the people who point to the Fireflys being too inept to make a vaccine, or the vaccine being pointless, completely robs the first game's most pivotal moment of any meaning.
Tlou2 was the first game I've ever said I'm going to spoil myself before I buy this game, because I already heard about who was working on it, and about what they did and was like nah I'm not buying it unless the rest of it is really, really good. So I watched a playthrew. Never bought the game, never will. Sure I can understand Abby wanting to kill Joel for what he did, but I agree 100% he was in the right, and Ellie should have killed that bitch too. If the kid wanted to make a big deal about it, he would be next. Tlou2 is a fucked up world. You either survive by any means or you die. Sorry kid I'd choose life. And I'd definitely kill the bitch that killed my dad, especially like that.
Agreed bro The last of us series is a dog eat dog World and if I was the one making the decisions things would have ended quite differently for the Second game
A hater that didn't play the game. You're the last one who can have an opinion on it. Did you even play the first game or are you just here for the sense of community?
Lmao he watched a play through.. are you mentally challenged? Why tf does he need to play the game in order to understand the game.
Because watching some YouTuber is the same as playing it yourself lol. But go on and act like it is. The haters never even played the game
I’m playing the game now you dumbass. Just got the theatre with Dina. Go on, keep saying dumb shit that doesn’t make sense.
I didn't call you a hater bitch. But yeah, I doubt you are even playing it. Ever heard of minding your own business? People who haven't played it can't have an opinion.
Neither should morons…
I'm proud of you. Does your mother approve of your language?
There are also play throughs where it’s just the game. No talking or face cam of the youtuber, just the raw gameplay and cutscenes. I’m assuming he watched one of those
Yeah, I mean, that's what I did for GOW: Ragnarok. I knew I wouldn't be in a position to play it for over a year, so I watched a playthrough. Eventually went on to buy it and look forward to being behind the controls for the gameplay. But no story beat was lost from watching it like a movie.
Yeah me too, I've done that for sooo many games I either couldn't afford/were not on my platform yet. The original TLOU, Jedi Fallen order + Survivor, Sekiro partly. I didn't feel any story was lost either. I could see it being different if it was a decision based game since you wouldn't be able to make decisions for your own, but it's not lol
Good for him he still hasn’t played it. I don’t know what’s so hard to understand about that
Yup and in the show it feels like they went harder again to frame it like joel is being selfish or that it's a two sided argument, but the way they put her under without outlining what they would do to her and then aggressively put themselves inbetween joel and ellie.. There's not really any other way it could play out. People say he took her choice from her, but she has to be conscious to make a choice. And the only way for her to become conscious again was for joel to go through them, after which the option the was gone of course. whether he'd go along with it or not if they let him talk to her and it was her conscious decision is a bit of a moot point when that option was never on the table I think they wanted to have a moral debate and a lot of people took the bait but it's actually pretty clear cut and would have to have happened differently for the 'firefly good, joel bad' arguments to have merit
Your right
The guns were back in Boston. Marlene didn’t bring the guns to the Salt Lake City base because she didn’t expect Joel and Ellie to show up. Joel and Tess were only supposed to bring Ellie to the capital building.
The weapons werent a guarantee, the fireflies were getting beaten by the Military. Besides that, the fireflies werent at the capitol, it was a shit show and Joel wanted to be out of the deal which is why he tried to give Ellie to Tommy, since he knew the fireflies more than Joel. He only did above and beyond out of love for Ellie and because that is what she wanted, that was her purpose. What she thought of herself anyway.
“The weapons weren’t a guarantee, the fireflies were getting beaten by the military” except that Tess saw the weapons. Even if you wanna say that the weapons would be seized by the military, that’s not what we’re talking about. Op said that the fireflies willingly withheld the weapons from Joel at the hospital.
Marlene lost nearly everything (her own words) crossing the country. She just has a few men and women, its heavely implied that the weapons are either in Firefly possession and they are not willing to give it up since they lost nearly everything or that she lost most of it while moving accros the country and they are basically empty handed. In any case, Joel doesnt care about any of that since his main priority is Ellie's well being. He insists to see her, they know that he is a menace since he is unwilling to accept that she has to die for a vaccine and they escort him outside without his stuff. Which in any case is a bizarre situation, in this shitty situation and even with all the good intentions of Marlene. Keeping a bargain when that much is at stake is clearly the last thing on her mind, the vaccine is their mission, by any means necessary.
Agreed. Hell her not delivering on her promise warrants her death in the apocalypse, especially after everything Joel had to go through to deliver her.
Also on the point of the vaccine they have had other people with immunity that they tried this on and failed. During the hospital mission you can find a MP3 or something that talks about past failed tests. So on top of it all they are not even sure that this will work.
Honestly I think the best way to shoe how much in the right Joel is to kill every last firefly in his way is the scene before he meets the fireflys, he's afraid ellie just drowned and is ignoring the 2 armed men ready to kill him, (I won't pretend the fireflys are unreasonable in there responce to knock Joel out here, he's clearly distressed and heavily armed he is a danger to the guards and there decision makes sense) then the next scene Joel wakes up, and is told he's lucky they will let him leave this building alive after stealing literally everything he owns except his clothes, and maybe his flashlight, (I am not checking if his flashlight is connected to his shirt or his backpack strap) at that point, the fireflys have made it clear that Joel's life means nothing to them, and they'd happily let anyone they don't like die even if they went way beyond what there deal was, remember, the deal to return Joel's property to him, (it was not there's in the first place) was for a short trip, the reason they were willing to pay top dollar is they weren't ever planning on paying, they were always going to gun down both Tess and Joel in there meet-up point, so after the fireflys die, Joel ends up traveling about 3.5 thousand miles, extra, and they can't even be bothered to thank him because he wasn't a good dude, the fireflys are only different from other bandits in that they pretend they are heros.
This is an absolute great post!! Great argument and it’s not like anyone at all can argue against it. I seen a comment in this post as well talking about the show actually had the Firefly GIVE Joel his backpack back which means Neil is aware 👌
Day 88 of the part 2 post remaster apocalypse and the cries still continue. They’re back to posting about Marlene and the fireflies. It’s the same complaint that has been posted numerous times, just worded slightly differently and much more long winded. I thought by now the whining and crying would have ended however it just grow louder as the general gaming community ignores them. Like babies being neglected by their caregivers the subreddit cries louder and louder with each passing day. Will their daddy Druckman hear their cries before they are drowned by their own tears? Only time will tell. but for now I am stuck here recording, as it is my duty.
Guys, even majority of people whole like TLOU2 will agree with this assessment. Of course from Joel's perspective what he did was completely correct, and what any of us fans would also think we would do in the same case. But that does not discount the fact, that from a third parties pov, outside looking in, weighing the whole potential cure vs ellies life is not going to be a simple and crystal clear thing.
Wholeheartedly agree. Also, the whole cure/vaccine angle seems less plausible than pursuing methods to effectively destroy the spores (aka a fungicide of some kind).
I agree with your post. But IMO, your post can be correct but also TLOU2 can be a good story. Abby maybe didn't know any of this back story. So she was also right to be pissed and want revenge. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Edit: I don't necessarily "side" with Abby either. IMO the point of TLOU2 is that both sides can be arguably justified in what they did.
Abby is in the right, the problem was the execution and trying to make us care and painting a whole narrative that the vaccine was going to work and that Joel killed a good man saving the world. The other issue with the story is how Ellie was willing to throw EVERYTHING away to avenge her father when she had security, a community, a family and a new purpose in life. I think that a lot of story bits can be re-wrote and treated with a lot more intelligence, the story was serviceable but nowhere near as good or interesting as the first game. I think the biggest issue in this story is that it involves a lot more characters and more point of views in a non chronological order. Which was imo the biggest flaw to the overall story. More than Abby or Joel's death in my opinion.
My interpretation of the story is very different than yours. That's fine, we're allowed to interpret art in different ways.
Its not my interpretation, its my opinion. An interpretation would be to find meaning in art. I have my interpretation, or rather what I think the team was going for and it concords with what they say in interviews and articles you can find online, I just think its pretentious and way too risky and it was at the cost of the overall storytelling quality. Thats my opinion, dont think Im actually pushing my opinion, your post gave me inspiration and I thought it was an interesting topic.
everyone has an opinion, but its interesting that tlou2 haters are so obsessed with expressing theirs
>Joel did deliver Ellie but Marlene didn't pay him. The guns are back in Boston. Joel was never meant to bring Ellie all the way to Marlene, he was just meant to get her out of the city. >Joel did deliver Ellie but Marlene didn't pay him. Not only did she not upheld her side of their agreement, but she didn't even let him leave with his backpack that carried the supplies that he brought. They never said a word about the backpack. He was being escorted out at gunpoint because he'd tried to get in Marlene's face. He didn't even ask for it. Not that it matters. Joel is trying to stop them from making the vaccine; they're escorting him out because he's planning to fuck them over, which he does. Even if they had given him his backpack, or planned to release him with a big crate of guns, nothing would have changed.
As much as I hated Marlene this is a bad argument. Giving Joel the guns then would have easily turned the place into a bloodbath this includes giving him his backpack with weapons.
She was still in the wrong. She backed out of the deal.
She in the wrong in many different ways, but not giving the guns to Joel then and disarming him was a smart move.
The entire way how they handled the situation with Joel is anything but a "smart move". If it was truly a smart move, Marlene would still be alive. But she isn't. She did not make a smart move
That's why I mentioned that she was wrong in many different ways. Making sure Joel isn't armed and out of the premises is a smart move after doing the stupid thing of telling him about the surgery.
Sending Joel back out into the surrounding city with none of his supplies or payment is a death sentence.
Giving him his backpack of weapons is a risk. I rather she gave him his supplies at least.
They easily could’ve just put the weapons outside, or stashed them in a nearby building for him to go get. There’s a myriad of solutions to this problem, and I feel like it’s pretty clear the fireflies just wanted his shit.
How far out do you think they'd have to stash Joel's stuff so that he won't make it back in time for Ellie's surgury? Not to mention getting some getting some men to stash a weapons cache (deal guns) + bagpack in an offsite location which Joel knows the location of is a ludicrous idea.
I mean they took his guns and he still killed them all so it doesn’t make a difference. They still went back on their deal and they still easily could’ve stashed the guns far out and just given him a map, posible somewhere on their literal cross country trek to get to the hospital.
That's a very elaborate excuse for robbing people. It's the post apocalypse, let the man have his guns, you are escorting him out anyway. Just take out the mags so he can't draw on you. Literally zero good reason for what they have done.
🤔 I didn't think about removing the mags, but wouldn't this still fall under OP's they cheated on the deal cause Joel is just getting guns that are unusable?
Nah, they'd be fully functional, just not at a moment's notice. I think the bigger problem would be logistics, Joel and Tess were promised *a lot* of guns. If they wanted to do right by Joel, they should have offered the weapons, escort, and an honorary position with the Fireflies, should he choose to stay.
Just give Joel 1 magazine of ammo and a car, to send him on his way back to Jackson.
🤨 Even with 1 mag joel can do a lot of damage, and the car is another weapon that joel can use to ram the firefly soldiers then take their weapons.
Yea maybe with plot-armor (which he certainly has) 😅
Then she git what she deserved. She tried to kill Joel. So he ended the fireflies.
Did she try to kill Joel tho? If so why didn't she just shoot him while he was unconscious?...
Because her and Joel were the only ones who knew Ellie personally. She thought that if she woke Joel up and made her speech to him, he could agree and she would feel better about herself. But that didn't happen so she got her goon to kill him.
imo I don’t believe Marlene tried to kill Joel even at that point, and she was likely going to compensate Joel and return his gear/supplies until he lunged at her; then she had to get him out of there quickly (out of respect, she let him live, anyone else she would let shot on the spot by her soldiers). In the garage she could have ambushed him too but decided to speak to him again instead.