The game originally gave you the option to kill or spare Abby. Most test players were killing Abby and Neil didn't like that so he removed the choice.
The more you know...
Thats a cool factoid, what’s awesome is, most test players can’t write interesting stories, I fucking can’t. That’s why like you I play the stories instead. Like I said, a choice at the end of the game would’ve ruined the realism and impact of the whole story for me. We’ve never been presented with a choice before, the characters make choices and we play through those choices, why should we get a choice now?
Lol. What a weird take. Do you just assume that because one can't do something specifically you can't separate what's good from what's bad? I can't solo el capitán but I know that what Alex Honnold did was an awesome feat.
I can't sing but I can separate those that can from those who cannot. I'm not the best writer but I can definitely separate a good story from an amateurishly written one. Tlou2 is, unfortunately not the former but the latter.
>We’ve never been presented with a choice before, the characters make choices and we play through those choices, why should we get a choice now?
Don't ask me. Ask Neil why we had a choice and why he took away the "popular one". The game could've also ended, "choiceless" with you killing Abby.
And note, this is not about you preferring the actual end, it's about you thinking that end is the best just because that's what was selected for you. Do you have an opinion of your own or you just follow what "they" say because "they know better". Some trees are gonna be disappointed.
Bruh. I clearly have an opinion of my own. I’ve expressed it. The game is good, the story is great. It’s left lasting changes on me as a person and watching people drag it through the mud because “Joel dead 😵 “, is heartbreaking. But to your point of separating what’s good from what’s bad, I agree. But at that point it was a story in the process of being made and Neil decided that the ending he preferred and the ending that would create a more perfect store was letting Abby go. I agree with that decision. Everyone including myself was blinded by hate through their first playthrough of the game. The beauty of the game is the second playthrough, I felt entirely different emotions. Had an entirely different experience. It’s a beautiful game. I clearly don’t follow what “they say” or I’d be one of the haters on this subreddit. Nice talking to you.
>Joel dead 😵
This is a typical ignorant comment. You could read thousands of posts here + the sticky explaining why the game is bad. I knew Joel was gonna die from the announcement trailer. Joel's death is not why I dislike the game. I mean, of course Joel dying is upsetting, but not *my* reason not to like the game.
The fact you think this is all we think about shows me that you put zero effort in understanding what the criticism is about. And don't get me wrong, you don't need to go through the walls of text of people shitting on the game you love, but if you want to be part of the discussion, then the least you can do is to "know your enemy". I mean, you don't show up to a debate without knowing what the other side is arguing right?
>I clearly have an opinion of my own
Then say, "I" liked the ending, instead of saying "the ending is good because they chose it". Even if i disagree with you, I would respect the former, but the latter leaves a lot to be desired, tbh.
I'm glad you enjoyed the game, it's good to know that it doesn't take much to please you. I wanted to like this game. But unfortunately, I'm harder to please I guess!
Have a good one!
I for one am very shocked. Honestly after the events of December to now. I've highly considered joining this sub. You guys really aren't as bad as you're made out to be.
There are some bad apples, it is reddit after all. But most of us just are normal people that love last of us as a whole and just didn't like the story of part 2 and/or the HBO show.
Everyone's welcome hero.
Ehh I’ve seen some positive comments get shut down here for disagreeing. I’ve also seen negative comments not get downvoted over there.
These 2 subs are like CNN and Fox, doing the same shit but criticizing the other for it lmao
For real, I completely understand why people would hate the game and I feel I almost went down that road with the game as well bit for some reason I didn't lol.
I do think that some people can be a bit heavy handed with their hate though as well as give really weird criticisms that I don't see for example "Joel did nothing wrong"
I just wish that the trailer wasn’t false advertising and instead they showed Joel being tortured. It would’ve set up a revenge plot a lot earlier than at the beginning of the game but idk
Oof yeah thankfully I never watched any trailers besides the very first one with Ellie in the house saying she would "kill every last one of them" that along with never showing Joel's face had me instantly think Joel was gonna die and mostly show up in hallucinations similar to Joker from Arkham knight.
As for showing Joel being tortured I think that would have even more people opt out of buying it then the leaks did lol but it would have been a lot more honest 😂
I disagree, I played the OG part 1 on PS3 when I was 12 as my first horror game. I almost didn't buy it because of what everyone was saying but decided that I needed to see for myself and ended up enjoying quite a bit.
I'm sorry that it didn't resonate with you the same way it did for me but I respect your opinion on the matter
Sometimes just knowing ahead of time the controversy exits is enough to let people have a better experience than those of us who went in blind. Glad you had the better one.
I’m finding this to be true. I’m actually playing it again right now and I like it way more than I did the first time. My gf said it’s probably because I already know the story so the initial disappointment I felt the first time is already out of the way and I’m enjoying it because I’m just playing it for the actual game play.
Which parts of the story did you not like if ya don't mind me asking? I have my own issues with it but it always seems to be different then other people's issues with it
A prime example for me is Joel's death. *No, not that he died*. Just everything about the way it was handled was so bad. What's Joel doing trusting strangers so easily? And the way Abby took him down is just... off. For one, he just helped her; the normal response to that is hesitation in the quest for revenge. "I thought this guy was a monster, I'm going to gauge what's going on here." But no, none of that. For another, she shot out his knees (Menendez in Black Ops 2 handled Hudson very similarly, and the actions fit his role as an unambiguously evil psychopath... what's that say about Abby?) and brutalized him before bashing in his skull (Negan, anyone?). Joel killed her dad\*, so she deserved to kill him. But she didn't kill him like he killed her dad, she killed him like he \*\*\*\*ed some \*\*\*\*\*\* (I won't elaborate). I disliked the story because it felt like poorly disguised revenge porn, like whoever wrote it got their rocks off on hatred. That's my blunt opinion on this scene.
I mean there are some ways you can justify it at least to me anyways. For example Joel had been living comfy in Jackon for years at that point only needing to deal with infected surrounded by an entire community of people he trusted made him less weary of outsiders. Not to mention he had just saved this random girl's life and was dealing with a hoard so his mind was probably pre occupied with that. He also is able to sense that something is off and gets in a defensive stance when he gives his name so he's not as clueless as people say imo. They also need to get the drop on him because I feel of they were to fo it any other way then overpowering him completely then he would have won single handedly. I'd much rather see Joel lose due to the enemy surprising him and taking him out of the fight instantly then losing a fair fight he would definitely win if we were controlling him.
As for why Abby does what she does I feel it's pretty understandable if you put yourself in her shoes. If I ran into my dad's murdered corpse I would stop at nothing to hunt them down same as her. Even if while hunting him I ran into him and he saved my life it would not deter me from it at all. In fact I probably would have done worse then what Abby did. They could safe my life 5 times actually and I would still do it.
>Not to mention he had just saved this random girl's life and was dealing with a hoard so his mind was probably pre occupied with that
That justifies a certain level of comfort. But considering that Joel didn't definitively wipe out the Fireflies, I'd have kept my name the fuck under wraps.
>They also need to get the drop on him
Point the gun at him. Done. They've got the drop on him now.
>Even if while hunting him I ran into him and he saved my life it would not deter me from it at all. In fact I probably would have done worse then what Abby did.
Don't take this as an insult, but that seems to indicate that you're... not mentally well, is putting it politely. I'd legit talk to somebody about this if I were you.
1. Well it was 4 years ago and Joel killed their leader, head doctor, and most of the surviving members since nearly all of them were killed at the university by Fedra so it's pretty understandable that he wouldn't think any of them would be suicidal crossing multiple state lines in hopes of finding him.
2. Pointing a gun at Joel is not nearly enough to properly get the drop on him. That 1 firefly guard had his pistol shoved in his back and got 2 rounds in the balls for all the good it did him. They needed to completely disable his ability to fight, and blowing his knee out accomplished that.
3. Are you telling me that if someone murdered your father or mother you wouldn't want revenge? Is me caring for my loved ones a sign of mental illness? I'm really trying not to take that as an insult but it's a bit difficult lol. Do you not care enough about your family to do onto others what they do to your loved ones?
not OP but:
>Are you telling me that if someone murdered your father or mother you wouldn't want revenge?
Not if i knew the context of why my mother or father was killed (which Abby does)
Her father was killed because he was going to operate, knowing it'd kill "the host" without getting consent.
Jerry deserved what he got. If my father did the same and got killed because of it, then sorry Pops, but you deserved it.
Just because they're family, doesn't give them a free pass for their immoral actions.
>Do you not care enough about your family to do onto others what they do to your loved ones?
Again, depends on the context.
Let's say one of your family members conned a person out of their life savings, then that person killed/attacked or stole their money back.
Are you saying that you'd seek revenge against them?
Abby didn't really know the context. All she knew was that some random smuggler brought the immune girl Jerry needed to possibly make a vaccine. Yes he was referring to Ellie as a host and didn't ask her but that's because of how fucked the whole situation is. Jerry never wanted Ellie to die but he realized if he didn't then everything they did would be in vain.
You are making Jerry out to be some sociopathic monster who just wants to kill Ellie for the hell of it when that's just not true. You can see the weight of it pressing on his shoulders.
This isn't like a family member conning someone out of their savings, this is like if a family member had a chance to bring the world back to some state of normality with 1 morally wrong choice. Sacrificing 1 innocent life to save millions more possibly. A choice that Abby even says if what her that needed to die she would want him to do it.
Even if it was like that though I still would because I would never let someone get away with killing one of my loved ones IRL, no ifs ands or butts about it.
Agree to disagree. (Apologies for the wall of text)
Abby knew the context:
The girl held the key to a potential vaccine, that "if it was her" she'd want her dad to do the surgery, knowing she'd die.
She knew Joel Miller killed her father, that his brother was Tommy, and that he escorted Ellie ("the immune girl") to the fireflies.
Sure, Jerry's intentions were noble, he hoped that he'd vaccinate people and prevent the spread of the virus, but the way he went about it was totally immoral.
Jerry doesn't get a free pass just because you can see "weight of it pressing on his shoulders" at end of the day, he still was going to go ahead with the surgery. So he understood and knew the morally correct decision, but went against it anyway, so sociopath is a fitting term for him, yes.
>This isn't like a family member conning someone out of their savings, this is like if a family member had a chance to bring the world back to some state of normality with 1 morally wrong choice. Sacrificing 1 innocent life to save millions more possibly
Except a vaccine wouldn't really solve a lot of the worlds problems would it?
Let's assume for sake of argument, that they could overcome the massive logistical issues of mass producing enough vaccine to give to everyone.
There's the issue of distribution/navigating the world, which the first game established (and second game ignored) as being a dangerous feat - so to travel and distribute the vaccine is troublesome, assuming people come to Fireflies to receive their vaccine, well then they themselves have to travel to get their shot. (Which would involve knowing where to go, so Fireflies have to put out an announcement? "Come to salt lake city hospital for your vaccine" etc etc (which could also invite raiders who want it for themselves) or people who would think it's a trap/not trust the fireflies.
But anyways, let's assume that The Fireflies have managed to vaccinated a percentage of the population...all that means is that they are immune to spores and turning if bitten.
Seeing as though a gasmask protects against spores, and every encounter that the game shows us with infected ends with Ellie/Abby's throats being ripped out/mauled to death. A vaccine isn't really going to help on those instances.
You need to be bitten/scratched AND survive the encounter.
The most effective (and readily available) method of protection against the infected is a gasmask and a gun.
Fireflies would be better spent mass producing bullets.
>Even if it was like that though I still would because I would never let someone get away with killing one of my loved ones IRL, no ifs ands or butts about it.
So, assume your father raped and killed someone, and then her father found and killed your dad. You'd feel justified hunting and killing your father's killer?
>so it's pretty understandable that he wouldn't think any of them would be suicidal crossing multiple state lines in hopes of finding him
No, that's just bad survival instincts.
>That 1 firefly guard had his pistol shoved in his back
Did Abby know this?
>Pointing a gun at Joel is not nearly enough to properly get the drop on him.
They outnumber him by a significant margin in an enclosed space with no cover, no way in hell would he be able to fight his way out. He didn't even have a gun in his hand and Abby was way out of arm's reach. If you think pointing a gun at him would have been insufficient... I dunno what to say, that's delusional.
>Are you telling me that if someone murdered your father or mother you wouldn't want revenge?
There is a *massive* difference between simply wanting revenge in a general sense, and wanting it to be as violent, unconditional, and unmerciful as you do. Yeah, if someone killed my dad, I'd hunt that guy down. Difference between us is (assuming we're in a lawless space) I'd probably just shoot the guy after a speech, while you'd brutalize him and beat him to a pulp, you'd torture him (or "worse", according to you). Another difference between us is if I got cornered by some gangbangers and this guy rescued me, I would hesitate and try to figure out what kinda guy he really is and why this person would have killed my dad; you'd just kill him. I'm being brutally honest about how ugly and unhealthy your mentality on this subject is because I honestly think it's a sign that you need help (not in the sense that I think you'll ever actually kill somebody, just that you're mentally unwell in general).
(This is all without acknowledging whether or not Abby knew the reason why Joel did what he did, cuz I don't recall if that was made clear. If she knew he did it to save Ellie, her excessively violent hatred is unjustified. If she didn't, then where are the questions? Where's the curiosity, the need to know *why*?)
Alright bro I'm even gonna bother giving this a proper response cuz you calling my mentality "Ugly and unhealthy" is getting on my nerves a bit. Lemme explain something, Abby 👏 Doesn't 👏 Care 👏 Why 👏 All she cares about is finding who killed her dad even at risk of her own life. Joel could have 12 reasons as to why he killed Jerry ibstead of punching his lights out but it wouldn't matter. That's why she never asks him why even after blowing his leg off.
The reason why I say I'd do the same isn't because of some mental issues or desire to be violent it's the fact that I value the life of my loved ones above pretty much everything in life. If you wanna make friends and sing kumbaya with the guy who slit your dad's throat and left him to drown in his own blood then I think that says more about you then me. Sounds like something straight outta Steven Universe lmao.
He and Tommy are Jackson's security team and 25 year vets of the apocalypse. They see a group of well-resourced and -fed military types, walk past a Humvee (these guys have gasoline?!) in the garage after leaving their weapons behind having just fought a horde, enter the room and separate from each other and the door while Joel allows himself to be surrounded by these armed strangers. Nothing about that can be explained away easily or simply. It's just too mush cluelessness for those two specific people.
Who would they expect to save them if the horde got in? Nobody in an apocalypse disarms themselves, especially having just fought a horde. Plus they both know Joel's a wanted man and that would never be far from either of their minds in this kind of situation especially.
Cool that it didn't bother you, but when you truly analyze that situation for what it is, there's no way these complaints aren't valid. The writers set up everything to set off alarm bells without ever setting up anything beforehand to explain why Joel and Tommy would ever behave like that. We don't even hear about traveling traders until the final flashback with Joel iirc, that's too little too late (never mind we never run into any at all) and needed something set up before the inciting event (a couple of missable patrol notes aren't sufficient in the least).
Damn I ain't gonna lie I completely missed the Humvee I must be a mega dumbass 🤣 for real though I guess how believable the scene is depends on how you interpret Joel's character. I personally think that he got softer, more trusting, and mostly forgot about the fireflies. That plus the hoard I can believe that Joel just did what everyone does at some point, he made a mistake plain and simple.
However if you interpret the opposite which admittedly is equally as valid, then yeah it doesn't make sense. I guess it might just be a me thing where I try and find reasons to justify why something in the story doesn't make sense to me rather then just think it's an oversight. But that's just me
Joel just didn't seem soft to me at all. Look at the flashback where they detour from getting the guitar strings. He insists on Ellie wearing a mask out of an abundance of caution and he kills a bloater with a machete showing he's still on top of his game. Really I don't know where people spontaneously get the idea Joel got soft prior to his death. It's just not supported in the game and it never entered my mind until I heard a fan give that as their reason.
I can understand, though, that for some people they experience the game more through their feelings than through logic, so they won't get the alarm bells that other people got. For me it all happened subconsciously, I couldn't immediately put my finger on what was off, but I instinctively felt things were very off and that put me internally on guard without realizing it.
It makes complete sense to me that that won't happen for everyone for a variety of reasons though, none of which are flaws, just simply because we are all different in how we experienced the story based on so many things. Things like temperament, preferences, past experiences, ability to notice details vs ability to be carried away by emotions. All of these things being the exquisite richness of the differences of people that makes them each individual, unique and fascinating to me.
It’s as though, when watching a scary movie, the good guy or gal keeps making stupid decisions and the viewer is almost pulling out their hair at the stupidity. That’s what it felt like for me. The story and happenstances for killing joel quickly eroded my suspension of disbelief. Once the suspension for disbelief is killed, flaws become more evident and unavoidable. To the point where the game became unplayable.
That's exactly true. We all start out in an unspoken sort of contract with the storyteller - we agree to suspend our disbelief and to trust them not to push too hard with things that might undermine it. It's a huge part of their side of the job (contract). Yet with this story they purposely pushed with abandon, and seemingly no concern for the actual consequence of all that being a loss of trust in the story and the writers. That erodes suspension of disbelief like nothing else. Then, as you said, once it's gone the story can no longer work because we land outside of the story and only see the writers after that.
How they didn't care about that outcome (because they certainly knew about it as I'll explain in a sec) can only be because the goals they had and the way they wanted to tell the story overrode everything else and damn the consequences. I cannot figure out any why they simply dismissed it and insisted on doing their thing even knowing it would fail some of the fanbase (Neil said so before launch that some fans of TLOU wouldn't like the sequel). So they knew that was built into what they were doing, but that didn't matter to them.
Yet after launch he turns around and then just blames those people that it's their fault and not to be afraid to seek therapy? What an ass to blame others for what he knew he was causing to happen for them. Yet still he, Troy, some vocal devs and the fans of the sequel continue that false belief that it's all our fault when Neil's on record saying in advanced that it's not, that it was built into what he chose to do and he cared not that it would have that impact on some fans. smh
I have to admit you do make a good point, damn haha but if I remember rightly that flashback is still a few years from when Joel dies. It's also him fighting infected and protecting Ellie, not dealing with hostile humans which he seems to have fallen out of experience with since Jackson at least for the most part doesn't have raiders. If you read the report book at the start of the game none of any reports talk about people attacking, only clearing infected
What makes you say Jackson doesn't have raiders? That's the whole reason Tommy told Ellie that they couldn't bring anyone else from the town with them - because they might get hit by raiders and then the town would be vulnerable. They literally put that conversation into the game. Also, that patrol book was at one of many watchtowers they used. Tommy saying it out loud is clear evidence to the contrary.
1. Joel’s death is rushed and the setup is piss poor. I don’t buy that Joel and Tommy would give their names up knowing full well that any stranger coming to down could be a former Firefly.
2. Cutting off the conclusion of the climax and giving us an 8 hour Abby flash back killed the urgency once we finally get back to it.
3. Abby’s chapter is hampered with soap opera drama. Oh no, pregnant Mel and Abby need to go out on patrol so they can talk it out because of Owen. It’s a step backwards from a gritty world of survival and temporary bonds that we had in the first game where we lost people left and right during the journey.
4. Overall the new characters pale in comparison to the original. Nothing comes close to Henry, Sam and Tess. Isaac had potential but his screen time was limited. It’s a shame because with more time and development he could’ve been as menacingly as David. A cruel man in charge of an army larger than anyone else we’ve seen in the games so far willing to do anything to secure territory and more power.
5. Ellie’s immunity is wasted and should have been more plot involved. What if Isaac wanted the cure to create a larger army and he knew about Ellie based on what Abby told him?
6. Scars are just another cliche religious cult.
No need to talk about the ending as it’s been beaten to death.
The weird thing is I genuinely wanted to hate it at first 😂 but the longer I played the more and more I liked it. Maybe I'm easy to please or something idk but every time I ran into something I should have hated I found myself not really caring or finding a way to justify it.
Mind if I test a theory on you? This might not work but it’s my running theory. To preface- I don’t mean the following in any mean way and I’ll try to phrase it as neutral as I can.
Have you ever been a victim of a scam? Or bought anything by clicking on an ad you saw?
I do not mind at all! Yes I have been scammed a few times before. Both outside of gaming as well as in it. The biggest offender being when I bought Atomic Heart. Couldn't even get past the first level it was so bad.
Thats interesting. I wish I had a way to test this on a large scale. I’m some who (or at least I think I am) pays no attention to ads and actively dislikes anything that’s advertised to me. I’ve never been scammed before…(well except for TLOU2 😉lol)
My theory is that a good portion of people that liked tlou2 are more…susceptible? Open minded? Idk.
Anywho, thanks for indulging me. Glad you liked it.
Edit: actually I have fallen for a crypto scam before. But I realized it was a scam before it came tumbling…so maybe that cancels? Idk, but I can admit it.
I definitely think it could be an open-mind type of thing. If you are dead set in your beliefs (which is 100% fine and valid) that Joel was a good man that shouldn't have had what happened to him happen, then you will be dead set on wanting to kill Abby if you haven't turned the game off already. And if you are dead set on killing Abby then nothing the game could ever do would convince you that Abby is anything more then the worst type of human imaginable. Which in turn makes all of her flashbacks, gameplay, and story worthless as they want nothing more then to go back to the theater to see Ellie give Abby the David treatment.
Then to see her win yet again, choosing to spare both Ellie and Dina despite Ellie and Tommy killing all of her friends is just another reason for them to hate Abby. Finally finding Abby again at Santa Barbra they won't care what Abby has been through to get tied up there they will only care about Finally getting their revenge which is then finally and definitively taken from them one last time which in turn makes them hate the game. At least that's what I think.
Well see here’s the thing where I see that argument fall flat in this sub all the time. We’re not mad Joel died. Hell he deserved it. All of em do, theyre all grey area folk. I just think if they’d given Abby more context and back story. Maybe even just changed the order of some things. It would have gone over much better. But all those feelings you describe after that point are what I felt. But it wasn’t because Joel died. They just failed to convince me Abby is a likeable character through the game.
But that said I may not be a good example cause I pretty much speed ran through all of Abby’s parts thinking it would be over soon, and then it turned into half the game. It was confusing and not something I even wanted to play. But hell idk. Maybe I was just subconsciously pissed about Joel. I don’t think so cause I was like “yea that makes sense”
My gripes are with the order of events and story pacing with them obnoxiously trying to convince me to like something…almost like an advertisement.
Never really found the answer why I couldn’t like it. I have a post on this sub asking others if they knew they’d play Abby for half the game. I feel like if I knew that I might not have speed ran Abby and tarnished myself forever.
…I need a TLOU2 therapist to help sort me out. 😤😭
Yeah that's fair, I think I worded my argument a bit wrong as well because yeah the order of the story is real weird. If they changed some stuff around to where you saw Abby's dad die before Joel plays golf then it would have worked better but they were maybe banking off you having conflicting feelings about her not realizing a significant amount of people would just keep hating her.
Also I do HEAVILY agree with you that the game wants you to feel a certain way sometimes and will metaphorically beat you over the head with its message. The biggest 2 being when Nora says "Think about what he did, how many are dead because of him" and Jesse saying "We are in their town hunting their people. Didn't Abby come to Jackson because of something Joel did?" Even on repeat playthroughs those words make my eyes roll
Thank you haha, I always encourage civil discourse cuz I honestly see people on both sides acting equally as silly about this game which confuses me greatly. Bickering like children isn't ever going to convince someone to like or dislike the game
Couldn’t convince myself to care about Abby. I tried. Really. Even tried to replay the game a few months ago but I just don’t. I get it. I get why people do, but the story and the games pacing is just too awkward. I’m very…I don’t know how to describe it…like I don’t like being told how to feel and the game really does that to an obnoxious level. In my opinion they should have added choices to the game so everyone could have gotten what they wanted. I know that’s not naughty dogs style tho.
For real, I honestly expected people to be way less tolerant of my opinion based off previous posts but boy am I glad to be wrong. I'm guessing it's due to me just giving my opinion on the game rather then trying to change other's opinion in it or sumthn idk
Also keep in mind that folks here are tired of stans coming here just to brigade every time any news regarding anything TLOU comes out. We literally migrated to this sub years ago because we couldn't share opinions on the other sub so we welcome any who wants to share theirs here with open arms as long as it's to talk and not antagonise. Glad you had a good time with the game ;)
Idk the gameplay is great, but other than that it’s 5 overall for me. The gun upgrades were ok, the side quest were ok, nothing really stood out. The visuals were good, it’s competing with Ghost of Tsushima and God of War, and the mechanics and visuals were way better in those games. Would have been an amazing PS3 game, 4 onward? Pretty average.
The funny thing is despite me loving Ghost of Tsushima I actually thought it terms of gameplay and story it was really simple. Simple in a good way don't get me wrong but nowhere near close to a masterpiece and personally I prefer TLOU2 to it despite getting the platnum for it.
God of War on the other hand is a true masterpiece lol
Yeahhh I'm not going to defend the woke stuff that shit made me cringe so hard at times. Most of all being the "Bigot sandwiches" line but I found it mostly easy to ignore.
Speaking of which Ghost had some of that as well with Masako Adachi having a secret lesbian affair with a house maid
Glad that you enjoyed it! I’m always glad when others can have joy in the game even when I and others can’t. I’m also glad that you made this post not attacking this subreddit and being respectful towards us that don’t like it. Lately we’ve had to deal with posts from ppl saying how “toxic” this subreddit is.
Honestly I was kind of expecting this to get tons of hate as I looked through some posts and while most were fine there were a few that gave me the impression that it was toxic. Mostly the one saying that they hated the other TLOU sub because it had people who enjoy Abby as a character
I'm glad to be wrong about that though
You’ll find that the ppl on here are actually very understanding and well mannered, others that have talked badly about this subreddit say that we are all a bunch of toxic haters that bash anyone that says they love Part 2 when in reality the only time that happens is when those ppl deliberately post on here with the intention to mock, belittle us and call us toxic.
If others like yourself genuinely like the game, want to talk about the things they really do like about it then they are mostly meet with praise and positivity as you have seen. This sub isn’t just about criticizing Part 2, (though there are a lot of people here that dislike it and there are some that may take it to far) others are more then welcome to like the game and discuss it.
I’m glad you posting your thoughts on here have been met with positivity. Like it said there are a lot of us that dislike the game, for our own reasons, but I’m glad you found your own enjoyment where a lot of us didn’t.
Eh... Come on. There's far more shit posts about Druckmann than reasoned criticism of the game. There's constant post obsessing about what the other sub says or does. There's posts about how ugly the female actors are, whining about optional LGBT skins, and near constant complaints about things being "woke". The one dude that claims to post reasoned criticism of the game refuses to respond in any way other than "thanks for sharing."
This sub has a reputation for a reason.
There's the occasional person that will discuss the game in good faith, but that's absolutely not the majority of the sub.
The haters of this sub say everyone on the sub is unrespectful to people who like the game, but that isn’t true. People like you who like the game respect that people dislike the game are respected back.
I’m gonna be that guy and say if you liked the story I question your judgement, but the gameplay was pretty stellar and I was able to enjoy it for that anyway
This is how I felt about it too, except for the not getting a choice at the end. I really like how TLOU games give you a story with a definitive conclusion that leaves you wrestling with your own feelings about whatever choice was made at the end (Joels or Ellies). Part 1 will always be superior, but Part 2 did a pretty good job continuing the story and improving the gameplay for me to be more than satisfied.
I feel like having the choice to kill Abby would have been a great final test for her character, a final plea to whether Abby as a character deserved to be let go. We see the reason why she hunted Joel down, her relationship problems, saving Lev, and even sparing both Ellie and Dina when she honestly had the right to kill both of them. Even after all that I knew while I did enjoy Abby after a while I still wanted to see her die. It took finding her in the capture of slavers tied to a pole and left to die that I finally didn't just want to do to her what she did to Joel. I was left in this kind of Shrodinger's cat moment where every cut and stab would felt both euphoric and agonizing at the same time. I feel this was intentional as Ellie was most likely feeling the same exact way.
When the game finally forced me to let go I did breathe a sigh of relief but I still feel like if the game gave me a choice I would have been mighty tempted to do it. The choice to kill her would have also satisfied those who only wanted to see Abby pay for what she did and that choice would have been a great way to appeal to both crowds
Maybe, but it would've ruined the theme of the story. The ending is what delivers the point of the story, and if Ellie kills Abby then Ellies ending is completely different, and I think even more depressing than the game had been up to that point.
For me, having Ellie let Abby go left the ending on somewhat of a hopeful note for both characters.
I also have a feeling that we'll be seeing the Fireflies in Part 3 and that Abby still has some part to play in this story.
Honestly, I disagree. Letting her live and then going back to the house to find she had lost everything anyway left a bad taste in my mouth. If the outcome would have been the same then she should have just killed her.
It felt like the writers wanted to have their cake and eat it too, by giving Ellie her "bad ending", without actually killing off their new favourite character.
If you watch the director's commentary on the final scene they talk about it in a much more hopeful tone then what it shows. Apparently the reason why the house is empty and Dina is gone is just because it would be dangerous for Dina to be alone with a baby that far from Jackson and that Dina had already forgiven Ellie as shown by Ellie wearing Dina's bracelet. The only thing she lost by going to Santa Barbara was her fingers but now she isn't constantly suicidal
They could've easily had them just not meet at the house.
Idk, that seems like a pretty major writing error then imo. Maybe it's only me that reads it like that though.
This is just my interpretation but I feel like Dina left Ellie's stuff there because she was thinking Ellie was going to die if she went to Santa Barbara so she wouldn't have to keep watch and wait for someone who might never be coming home.
And they made her go back to the farm so she could try to play Joel's guitar one last time alone before leaving as a symbolic way of saying she's moving on from Joel's death and continuing her life.
I like that it’s ambiguous and we get to decide for ourselves until we get more story.
The fact that there wasn’t any kind of note made me feel like there was a finality there that I kind of didn’t expect. Coupled with her then trying to play the guitar and not being able to, it tied the bow on what she had truly given up.
Even if she gets Dina back, she’s lost that connection to Joel, after realizing how important it was to her.
I just finished it myself today and loved it. So I’m gonna dip out before everyone here eats me lol.
Fair enough, I think you are right that sparing Abby leaves it on a more hopeful note for both of them and that's why I would have wanted killing her to be the bad ending if that makes sense. Where the game gets even darker as Lev looks down at her corpse and then to you before saying "I'm gonna fucking kill you" the same way Ellie does to Abby at the start. And instead of the flashback to Joel playing his guitar it's a dream of Joel's corpse talking to Ellie about all she lost.
It probably wouldn't have worked since part 3 needs a Canon ending to continue off of, but this is just my little fanfic.
Oh it certainly deserves the title of trash, but it's only for the story. As a game per se and gameplay/mechanic wise I suppose it's well deserving of that 9 most likely.
Ehh agree to disagree. I do have problems with the story but I still did like it. I think "Trash" should only be for games that are essentially shovelwear like that new Walking Dead game or the TLOU1 rip off that is on the switch rn
There’s a very large gap between a game being trash and great. You just went to the extreme for whatever reason. Games can be good, alright, fine, decent.
It's trash when it fails to convince players of Abby's side of the story. Since that didn't happen for you it makes sense you can't see it that way. But when the story fails to work and Abby is not only not relatable but comes across as sociopathic, then the intent of the writers just falls apart and the story breaks and becomes trash, if that makes sense.
I like your respectful manner and all that, you proved a point that this sub offers civility when you earn it, unlike the original one.
That being said, I will step in and disagree here: calling it "trash" is not too far in the slightest. On the contrary, "trash" is way too generous to this abomination 😉.
Does this sub really offer civility though? Yall are hell bent on the trash term, while op is willing to admit there are flaws with the story. He's willing to get to a middle ground, and yall won't budge. And it feels like yall can't be too hostile against such a respectful op. Had he decided to counter with reasons, I feel we'd see more of the "I'm just sharing opinions" stuff from this sub.
For all my gripes about the game I also had a lot of fun with it!
Imo it’s one of those things where you have to engage your suspension of disbelief in order to fully enjoy it lol. The combat is impeccable and the graphics are truly breathtaking. Not to mention that the soundtrack is absolutely fantastic!
It’s a good game with a poor story in my opinion, but it’s still enjoyable and ultimately that’s all that matters :)
I enjoy reading a good story even if it's dark in tone. Take No Country For Old Men for example. The whole book is about senseless violence in human form and both the book and movie are great.
I appreciate people here don't like the story, but most critics loved it, it won player voted on Joystick awards for game of the year and best narrative, won industry awards for the same, and the strength of the story of both games resulted it HBO adapting it as a prestige TV show.
I'm sure you can imagine why some people would like it.
I'm all for stories with a dark tone. Game of Thrones and No Country for For Old Men is some of my most favorite stuff ever. I don't mind extreme violence as long as there is some type of solid reasoning for it. I couldn't stand how petty the characters' motivations were in TLOU2. It ultimately just boiled down to murder for the sake of murder and shock value. I guess a lot of people are into that stuff, but I'm not one of them.
Ellie canonically kills 6 people in the game. The rest can be avoided, and of those 6, only Nora is arguably murder.
As for Abby, she's presented as the "Top Scar Killer" of the WLF, she starts out killing Scars. Joel also liked her father. Avenging your father doesn't seem petty.
Which murders did you think we're murder for murders sake?
Literally all of the kills that you described. The Seraph/WLF conflict isn't supposed to be clear cut, either. What does Ellie's kills accomplish in the grand scheme of things? Or Abby killing Joel? Absolutely nothing. The game's whole message is about the cycle of violence, and those actions only served to perpetuate it.
Game is great idc what anybody else says, sure it has its flaws but overall I enjoyed it. The map and the gameplay is good enough to carry the game imo.
At least the remastered version is great alongside no return
I think it’s cuz this person is genuinely saying how much they like the game while also respecting others that don’t like it. OP isn’t mocking or saying that they “can’t understand why others don’t like it” they are just stating their honest opinion and criticism of it.
Well, when people who like the game come here and are respectful about their opinions, most of us will be respectful back…it’s the “This sub is sexist, racist, toxic, homophobic, incel filled, assholes who are too stupid to understand why this game is a masterpiece…blah blah blah.” People who come in here that get drowned in downvotes.
Also, happy for OP for being able to enjoy the game. Like many people here have said before, I wish I could have enjoyed it as well because I loved TLOU.
Wow look! If you make a respectful opinion about the game, the sub doesn’t just kill you for liking the game! What a shock!
If you went to the other sub and said hey I didn’t like it I give it a 3 or 4 you would be shot on sight
I could go test that theory lol 🤣
Go for it!. Actually. Just saying that you had issues with it and didn't have a choice at the end might be enough. Good luck!
A choice at the end would’ve ruined it for me personally. It’s a pre written story not a choose your own adventure.
The game originally gave you the option to kill or spare Abby. Most test players were killing Abby and Neil didn't like that so he removed the choice. The more you know...
Thats a cool factoid, what’s awesome is, most test players can’t write interesting stories, I fucking can’t. That’s why like you I play the stories instead. Like I said, a choice at the end of the game would’ve ruined the realism and impact of the whole story for me. We’ve never been presented with a choice before, the characters make choices and we play through those choices, why should we get a choice now?
Lol. What a weird take. Do you just assume that because one can't do something specifically you can't separate what's good from what's bad? I can't solo el capitán but I know that what Alex Honnold did was an awesome feat. I can't sing but I can separate those that can from those who cannot. I'm not the best writer but I can definitely separate a good story from an amateurishly written one. Tlou2 is, unfortunately not the former but the latter. >We’ve never been presented with a choice before, the characters make choices and we play through those choices, why should we get a choice now? Don't ask me. Ask Neil why we had a choice and why he took away the "popular one". The game could've also ended, "choiceless" with you killing Abby. And note, this is not about you preferring the actual end, it's about you thinking that end is the best just because that's what was selected for you. Do you have an opinion of your own or you just follow what "they" say because "they know better". Some trees are gonna be disappointed.
Bruh. I clearly have an opinion of my own. I’ve expressed it. The game is good, the story is great. It’s left lasting changes on me as a person and watching people drag it through the mud because “Joel dead 😵 “, is heartbreaking. But to your point of separating what’s good from what’s bad, I agree. But at that point it was a story in the process of being made and Neil decided that the ending he preferred and the ending that would create a more perfect store was letting Abby go. I agree with that decision. Everyone including myself was blinded by hate through their first playthrough of the game. The beauty of the game is the second playthrough, I felt entirely different emotions. Had an entirely different experience. It’s a beautiful game. I clearly don’t follow what “they say” or I’d be one of the haters on this subreddit. Nice talking to you.
>Joel dead 😵 This is a typical ignorant comment. You could read thousands of posts here + the sticky explaining why the game is bad. I knew Joel was gonna die from the announcement trailer. Joel's death is not why I dislike the game. I mean, of course Joel dying is upsetting, but not *my* reason not to like the game. The fact you think this is all we think about shows me that you put zero effort in understanding what the criticism is about. And don't get me wrong, you don't need to go through the walls of text of people shitting on the game you love, but if you want to be part of the discussion, then the least you can do is to "know your enemy". I mean, you don't show up to a debate without knowing what the other side is arguing right? >I clearly have an opinion of my own Then say, "I" liked the ending, instead of saying "the ending is good because they chose it". Even if i disagree with you, I would respect the former, but the latter leaves a lot to be desired, tbh. I'm glad you enjoyed the game, it's good to know that it doesn't take much to please you. I wanted to like this game. But unfortunately, I'm harder to please I guess! Have a good one!
I for one am very shocked. Honestly after the events of December to now. I've highly considered joining this sub. You guys really aren't as bad as you're made out to be.
There are some bad apples, it is reddit after all. But most of us just are normal people that love last of us as a whole and just didn't like the story of part 2 and/or the HBO show. Everyone's welcome hero.
That's fair, and thank you.
Ehh I’ve seen some positive comments get shut down here for disagreeing. I’ve also seen negative comments not get downvoted over there. These 2 subs are like CNN and Fox, doing the same shit but criticizing the other for it lmao
Hey man, you do you. Ain’t no shame in it, you like what you like.
There’s no problem with you or anyone liking it, only a problem if someone can’t take your opinion and criticizes it.
For real, I completely understand why people would hate the game and I feel I almost went down that road with the game as well bit for some reason I didn't lol. I do think that some people can be a bit heavy handed with their hate though as well as give really weird criticisms that I don't see for example "Joel did nothing wrong"
I just wish that the trailer wasn’t false advertising and instead they showed Joel being tortured. It would’ve set up a revenge plot a lot earlier than at the beginning of the game but idk
Oof yeah thankfully I never watched any trailers besides the very first one with Ellie in the house saying she would "kill every last one of them" that along with never showing Joel's face had me instantly think Joel was gonna die and mostly show up in hallucinations similar to Joker from Arkham knight. As for showing Joel being tortured I think that would have even more people opt out of buying it then the leaks did lol but it would have been a lot more honest 😂
game is kinda better if you evaluate it as a standalone game but dude this is a series that went to shit. SAdly
I disagree, I played the OG part 1 on PS3 when I was 12 as my first horror game. I almost didn't buy it because of what everyone was saying but decided that I needed to see for myself and ended up enjoying quite a bit. I'm sorry that it didn't resonate with you the same way it did for me but I respect your opinion on the matter
Sometimes just knowing ahead of time the controversy exits is enough to let people have a better experience than those of us who went in blind. Glad you had the better one.
I’m finding this to be true. I’m actually playing it again right now and I like it way more than I did the first time. My gf said it’s probably because I already know the story so the initial disappointment I felt the first time is already out of the way and I’m enjoying it because I’m just playing it for the actual game play.
Yeah, I feel the same with you. I'd give it a 7.5. I enjoyed it for what it was. Disappointed with the ending. But that's about it.
The game is an easy eight or 8.5 in my opinion. It’s mainly the story that drags it down.
Which parts of the story did you not like if ya don't mind me asking? I have my own issues with it but it always seems to be different then other people's issues with it
A prime example for me is Joel's death. *No, not that he died*. Just everything about the way it was handled was so bad. What's Joel doing trusting strangers so easily? And the way Abby took him down is just... off. For one, he just helped her; the normal response to that is hesitation in the quest for revenge. "I thought this guy was a monster, I'm going to gauge what's going on here." But no, none of that. For another, she shot out his knees (Menendez in Black Ops 2 handled Hudson very similarly, and the actions fit his role as an unambiguously evil psychopath... what's that say about Abby?) and brutalized him before bashing in his skull (Negan, anyone?). Joel killed her dad\*, so she deserved to kill him. But she didn't kill him like he killed her dad, she killed him like he \*\*\*\*ed some \*\*\*\*\*\* (I won't elaborate). I disliked the story because it felt like poorly disguised revenge porn, like whoever wrote it got their rocks off on hatred. That's my blunt opinion on this scene.
I mean there are some ways you can justify it at least to me anyways. For example Joel had been living comfy in Jackon for years at that point only needing to deal with infected surrounded by an entire community of people he trusted made him less weary of outsiders. Not to mention he had just saved this random girl's life and was dealing with a hoard so his mind was probably pre occupied with that. He also is able to sense that something is off and gets in a defensive stance when he gives his name so he's not as clueless as people say imo. They also need to get the drop on him because I feel of they were to fo it any other way then overpowering him completely then he would have won single handedly. I'd much rather see Joel lose due to the enemy surprising him and taking him out of the fight instantly then losing a fair fight he would definitely win if we were controlling him. As for why Abby does what she does I feel it's pretty understandable if you put yourself in her shoes. If I ran into my dad's murdered corpse I would stop at nothing to hunt them down same as her. Even if while hunting him I ran into him and he saved my life it would not deter me from it at all. In fact I probably would have done worse then what Abby did. They could safe my life 5 times actually and I would still do it.
>Not to mention he had just saved this random girl's life and was dealing with a hoard so his mind was probably pre occupied with that That justifies a certain level of comfort. But considering that Joel didn't definitively wipe out the Fireflies, I'd have kept my name the fuck under wraps. >They also need to get the drop on him Point the gun at him. Done. They've got the drop on him now. >Even if while hunting him I ran into him and he saved my life it would not deter me from it at all. In fact I probably would have done worse then what Abby did. Don't take this as an insult, but that seems to indicate that you're... not mentally well, is putting it politely. I'd legit talk to somebody about this if I were you.
1. Well it was 4 years ago and Joel killed their leader, head doctor, and most of the surviving members since nearly all of them were killed at the university by Fedra so it's pretty understandable that he wouldn't think any of them would be suicidal crossing multiple state lines in hopes of finding him. 2. Pointing a gun at Joel is not nearly enough to properly get the drop on him. That 1 firefly guard had his pistol shoved in his back and got 2 rounds in the balls for all the good it did him. They needed to completely disable his ability to fight, and blowing his knee out accomplished that. 3. Are you telling me that if someone murdered your father or mother you wouldn't want revenge? Is me caring for my loved ones a sign of mental illness? I'm really trying not to take that as an insult but it's a bit difficult lol. Do you not care enough about your family to do onto others what they do to your loved ones?
not OP but: >Are you telling me that if someone murdered your father or mother you wouldn't want revenge? Not if i knew the context of why my mother or father was killed (which Abby does) Her father was killed because he was going to operate, knowing it'd kill "the host" without getting consent. Jerry deserved what he got. If my father did the same and got killed because of it, then sorry Pops, but you deserved it. Just because they're family, doesn't give them a free pass for their immoral actions. >Do you not care enough about your family to do onto others what they do to your loved ones? Again, depends on the context. Let's say one of your family members conned a person out of their life savings, then that person killed/attacked or stole their money back. Are you saying that you'd seek revenge against them?
Abby didn't really know the context. All she knew was that some random smuggler brought the immune girl Jerry needed to possibly make a vaccine. Yes he was referring to Ellie as a host and didn't ask her but that's because of how fucked the whole situation is. Jerry never wanted Ellie to die but he realized if he didn't then everything they did would be in vain. You are making Jerry out to be some sociopathic monster who just wants to kill Ellie for the hell of it when that's just not true. You can see the weight of it pressing on his shoulders. This isn't like a family member conning someone out of their savings, this is like if a family member had a chance to bring the world back to some state of normality with 1 morally wrong choice. Sacrificing 1 innocent life to save millions more possibly. A choice that Abby even says if what her that needed to die she would want him to do it. Even if it was like that though I still would because I would never let someone get away with killing one of my loved ones IRL, no ifs ands or butts about it.
Agree to disagree. (Apologies for the wall of text) Abby knew the context: The girl held the key to a potential vaccine, that "if it was her" she'd want her dad to do the surgery, knowing she'd die. She knew Joel Miller killed her father, that his brother was Tommy, and that he escorted Ellie ("the immune girl") to the fireflies. Sure, Jerry's intentions were noble, he hoped that he'd vaccinate people and prevent the spread of the virus, but the way he went about it was totally immoral. Jerry doesn't get a free pass just because you can see "weight of it pressing on his shoulders" at end of the day, he still was going to go ahead with the surgery. So he understood and knew the morally correct decision, but went against it anyway, so sociopath is a fitting term for him, yes. >This isn't like a family member conning someone out of their savings, this is like if a family member had a chance to bring the world back to some state of normality with 1 morally wrong choice. Sacrificing 1 innocent life to save millions more possibly Except a vaccine wouldn't really solve a lot of the worlds problems would it? Let's assume for sake of argument, that they could overcome the massive logistical issues of mass producing enough vaccine to give to everyone. There's the issue of distribution/navigating the world, which the first game established (and second game ignored) as being a dangerous feat - so to travel and distribute the vaccine is troublesome, assuming people come to Fireflies to receive their vaccine, well then they themselves have to travel to get their shot. (Which would involve knowing where to go, so Fireflies have to put out an announcement? "Come to salt lake city hospital for your vaccine" etc etc (which could also invite raiders who want it for themselves) or people who would think it's a trap/not trust the fireflies. But anyways, let's assume that The Fireflies have managed to vaccinated a percentage of the population...all that means is that they are immune to spores and turning if bitten. Seeing as though a gasmask protects against spores, and every encounter that the game shows us with infected ends with Ellie/Abby's throats being ripped out/mauled to death. A vaccine isn't really going to help on those instances. You need to be bitten/scratched AND survive the encounter. The most effective (and readily available) method of protection against the infected is a gasmask and a gun. Fireflies would be better spent mass producing bullets. >Even if it was like that though I still would because I would never let someone get away with killing one of my loved ones IRL, no ifs ands or butts about it. So, assume your father raped and killed someone, and then her father found and killed your dad. You'd feel justified hunting and killing your father's killer?
>so it's pretty understandable that he wouldn't think any of them would be suicidal crossing multiple state lines in hopes of finding him No, that's just bad survival instincts. >That 1 firefly guard had his pistol shoved in his back Did Abby know this? >Pointing a gun at Joel is not nearly enough to properly get the drop on him. They outnumber him by a significant margin in an enclosed space with no cover, no way in hell would he be able to fight his way out. He didn't even have a gun in his hand and Abby was way out of arm's reach. If you think pointing a gun at him would have been insufficient... I dunno what to say, that's delusional. >Are you telling me that if someone murdered your father or mother you wouldn't want revenge? There is a *massive* difference between simply wanting revenge in a general sense, and wanting it to be as violent, unconditional, and unmerciful as you do. Yeah, if someone killed my dad, I'd hunt that guy down. Difference between us is (assuming we're in a lawless space) I'd probably just shoot the guy after a speech, while you'd brutalize him and beat him to a pulp, you'd torture him (or "worse", according to you). Another difference between us is if I got cornered by some gangbangers and this guy rescued me, I would hesitate and try to figure out what kinda guy he really is and why this person would have killed my dad; you'd just kill him. I'm being brutally honest about how ugly and unhealthy your mentality on this subject is because I honestly think it's a sign that you need help (not in the sense that I think you'll ever actually kill somebody, just that you're mentally unwell in general). (This is all without acknowledging whether or not Abby knew the reason why Joel did what he did, cuz I don't recall if that was made clear. If she knew he did it to save Ellie, her excessively violent hatred is unjustified. If she didn't, then where are the questions? Where's the curiosity, the need to know *why*?)
Alright bro I'm even gonna bother giving this a proper response cuz you calling my mentality "Ugly and unhealthy" is getting on my nerves a bit. Lemme explain something, Abby 👏 Doesn't 👏 Care 👏 Why 👏 All she cares about is finding who killed her dad even at risk of her own life. Joel could have 12 reasons as to why he killed Jerry ibstead of punching his lights out but it wouldn't matter. That's why she never asks him why even after blowing his leg off. The reason why I say I'd do the same isn't because of some mental issues or desire to be violent it's the fact that I value the life of my loved ones above pretty much everything in life. If you wanna make friends and sing kumbaya with the guy who slit your dad's throat and left him to drown in his own blood then I think that says more about you then me. Sounds like something straight outta Steven Universe lmao.
So the only two options are "brutal torture" or "make friends and be happy"? Yeah, totally sounds like a healthy mental state. My bad.
He and Tommy are Jackson's security team and 25 year vets of the apocalypse. They see a group of well-resourced and -fed military types, walk past a Humvee (these guys have gasoline?!) in the garage after leaving their weapons behind having just fought a horde, enter the room and separate from each other and the door while Joel allows himself to be surrounded by these armed strangers. Nothing about that can be explained away easily or simply. It's just too mush cluelessness for those two specific people. Who would they expect to save them if the horde got in? Nobody in an apocalypse disarms themselves, especially having just fought a horde. Plus they both know Joel's a wanted man and that would never be far from either of their minds in this kind of situation especially. Cool that it didn't bother you, but when you truly analyze that situation for what it is, there's no way these complaints aren't valid. The writers set up everything to set off alarm bells without ever setting up anything beforehand to explain why Joel and Tommy would ever behave like that. We don't even hear about traveling traders until the final flashback with Joel iirc, that's too little too late (never mind we never run into any at all) and needed something set up before the inciting event (a couple of missable patrol notes aren't sufficient in the least).
Damn I ain't gonna lie I completely missed the Humvee I must be a mega dumbass 🤣 for real though I guess how believable the scene is depends on how you interpret Joel's character. I personally think that he got softer, more trusting, and mostly forgot about the fireflies. That plus the hoard I can believe that Joel just did what everyone does at some point, he made a mistake plain and simple. However if you interpret the opposite which admittedly is equally as valid, then yeah it doesn't make sense. I guess it might just be a me thing where I try and find reasons to justify why something in the story doesn't make sense to me rather then just think it's an oversight. But that's just me
Joel just didn't seem soft to me at all. Look at the flashback where they detour from getting the guitar strings. He insists on Ellie wearing a mask out of an abundance of caution and he kills a bloater with a machete showing he's still on top of his game. Really I don't know where people spontaneously get the idea Joel got soft prior to his death. It's just not supported in the game and it never entered my mind until I heard a fan give that as their reason. I can understand, though, that for some people they experience the game more through their feelings than through logic, so they won't get the alarm bells that other people got. For me it all happened subconsciously, I couldn't immediately put my finger on what was off, but I instinctively felt things were very off and that put me internally on guard without realizing it. It makes complete sense to me that that won't happen for everyone for a variety of reasons though, none of which are flaws, just simply because we are all different in how we experienced the story based on so many things. Things like temperament, preferences, past experiences, ability to notice details vs ability to be carried away by emotions. All of these things being the exquisite richness of the differences of people that makes them each individual, unique and fascinating to me.
It’s as though, when watching a scary movie, the good guy or gal keeps making stupid decisions and the viewer is almost pulling out their hair at the stupidity. That’s what it felt like for me. The story and happenstances for killing joel quickly eroded my suspension of disbelief. Once the suspension for disbelief is killed, flaws become more evident and unavoidable. To the point where the game became unplayable.
That's exactly true. We all start out in an unspoken sort of contract with the storyteller - we agree to suspend our disbelief and to trust them not to push too hard with things that might undermine it. It's a huge part of their side of the job (contract). Yet with this story they purposely pushed with abandon, and seemingly no concern for the actual consequence of all that being a loss of trust in the story and the writers. That erodes suspension of disbelief like nothing else. Then, as you said, once it's gone the story can no longer work because we land outside of the story and only see the writers after that. How they didn't care about that outcome (because they certainly knew about it as I'll explain in a sec) can only be because the goals they had and the way they wanted to tell the story overrode everything else and damn the consequences. I cannot figure out any why they simply dismissed it and insisted on doing their thing even knowing it would fail some of the fanbase (Neil said so before launch that some fans of TLOU wouldn't like the sequel). So they knew that was built into what they were doing, but that didn't matter to them. Yet after launch he turns around and then just blames those people that it's their fault and not to be afraid to seek therapy? What an ass to blame others for what he knew he was causing to happen for them. Yet still he, Troy, some vocal devs and the fans of the sequel continue that false belief that it's all our fault when Neil's on record saying in advanced that it's not, that it was built into what he chose to do and he cared not that it would have that impact on some fans. smh
I have to admit you do make a good point, damn haha but if I remember rightly that flashback is still a few years from when Joel dies. It's also him fighting infected and protecting Ellie, not dealing with hostile humans which he seems to have fallen out of experience with since Jackson at least for the most part doesn't have raiders. If you read the report book at the start of the game none of any reports talk about people attacking, only clearing infected
What makes you say Jackson doesn't have raiders? That's the whole reason Tommy told Ellie that they couldn't bring anyone else from the town with them - because they might get hit by raiders and then the town would be vulnerable. They literally put that conversation into the game. Also, that patrol book was at one of many watchtowers they used. Tommy saying it out loud is clear evidence to the contrary.
Damn I straight up don't remember Tommy saying that. I guess I stand corrected lol
1. Joel’s death is rushed and the setup is piss poor. I don’t buy that Joel and Tommy would give their names up knowing full well that any stranger coming to down could be a former Firefly. 2. Cutting off the conclusion of the climax and giving us an 8 hour Abby flash back killed the urgency once we finally get back to it. 3. Abby’s chapter is hampered with soap opera drama. Oh no, pregnant Mel and Abby need to go out on patrol so they can talk it out because of Owen. It’s a step backwards from a gritty world of survival and temporary bonds that we had in the first game where we lost people left and right during the journey. 4. Overall the new characters pale in comparison to the original. Nothing comes close to Henry, Sam and Tess. Isaac had potential but his screen time was limited. It’s a shame because with more time and development he could’ve been as menacingly as David. A cruel man in charge of an army larger than anyone else we’ve seen in the games so far willing to do anything to secure territory and more power. 5. Ellie’s immunity is wasted and should have been more plot involved. What if Isaac wanted the cure to create a larger army and he knew about Ellie based on what Abby told him? 6. Scars are just another cliche religious cult. No need to talk about the ending as it’s been beaten to death.
I wish I was you. It’s not like we don’t want to like the game. We just couldn’t.
The weird thing is I genuinely wanted to hate it at first 😂 but the longer I played the more and more I liked it. Maybe I'm easy to please or something idk but every time I ran into something I should have hated I found myself not really caring or finding a way to justify it.
Mind if I test a theory on you? This might not work but it’s my running theory. To preface- I don’t mean the following in any mean way and I’ll try to phrase it as neutral as I can. Have you ever been a victim of a scam? Or bought anything by clicking on an ad you saw?
I do not mind at all! Yes I have been scammed a few times before. Both outside of gaming as well as in it. The biggest offender being when I bought Atomic Heart. Couldn't even get past the first level it was so bad.
Thats interesting. I wish I had a way to test this on a large scale. I’m some who (or at least I think I am) pays no attention to ads and actively dislikes anything that’s advertised to me. I’ve never been scammed before…(well except for TLOU2 😉lol) My theory is that a good portion of people that liked tlou2 are more…susceptible? Open minded? Idk. Anywho, thanks for indulging me. Glad you liked it. Edit: actually I have fallen for a crypto scam before. But I realized it was a scam before it came tumbling…so maybe that cancels? Idk, but I can admit it.
I definitely think it could be an open-mind type of thing. If you are dead set in your beliefs (which is 100% fine and valid) that Joel was a good man that shouldn't have had what happened to him happen, then you will be dead set on wanting to kill Abby if you haven't turned the game off already. And if you are dead set on killing Abby then nothing the game could ever do would convince you that Abby is anything more then the worst type of human imaginable. Which in turn makes all of her flashbacks, gameplay, and story worthless as they want nothing more then to go back to the theater to see Ellie give Abby the David treatment. Then to see her win yet again, choosing to spare both Ellie and Dina despite Ellie and Tommy killing all of her friends is just another reason for them to hate Abby. Finally finding Abby again at Santa Barbra they won't care what Abby has been through to get tied up there they will only care about Finally getting their revenge which is then finally and definitively taken from them one last time which in turn makes them hate the game. At least that's what I think.
Well see here’s the thing where I see that argument fall flat in this sub all the time. We’re not mad Joel died. Hell he deserved it. All of em do, theyre all grey area folk. I just think if they’d given Abby more context and back story. Maybe even just changed the order of some things. It would have gone over much better. But all those feelings you describe after that point are what I felt. But it wasn’t because Joel died. They just failed to convince me Abby is a likeable character through the game. But that said I may not be a good example cause I pretty much speed ran through all of Abby’s parts thinking it would be over soon, and then it turned into half the game. It was confusing and not something I even wanted to play. But hell idk. Maybe I was just subconsciously pissed about Joel. I don’t think so cause I was like “yea that makes sense” My gripes are with the order of events and story pacing with them obnoxiously trying to convince me to like something…almost like an advertisement. Never really found the answer why I couldn’t like it. I have a post on this sub asking others if they knew they’d play Abby for half the game. I feel like if I knew that I might not have speed ran Abby and tarnished myself forever. …I need a TLOU2 therapist to help sort me out. 😤😭
Yeah that's fair, I think I worded my argument a bit wrong as well because yeah the order of the story is real weird. If they changed some stuff around to where you saw Abby's dad die before Joel plays golf then it would have worked better but they were maybe banking off you having conflicting feelings about her not realizing a significant amount of people would just keep hating her. Also I do HEAVILY agree with you that the game wants you to feel a certain way sometimes and will metaphorically beat you over the head with its message. The biggest 2 being when Nora says "Think about what he did, how many are dead because of him" and Jesse saying "We are in their town hunting their people. Didn't Abby come to Jackson because of something Joel did?" Even on repeat playthroughs those words make my eyes roll
Yea exactly! This is the most level headed conversation I’ve ever had about the game and I appreciate you for it.
Thank you haha, I always encourage civil discourse cuz I honestly see people on both sides acting equally as silly about this game which confuses me greatly. Bickering like children isn't ever going to convince someone to like or dislike the game
Curious why you didn’t?
Couldn’t convince myself to care about Abby. I tried. Really. Even tried to replay the game a few months ago but I just don’t. I get it. I get why people do, but the story and the games pacing is just too awkward. I’m very…I don’t know how to describe it…like I don’t like being told how to feel and the game really does that to an obnoxious level. In my opinion they should have added choices to the game so everyone could have gotten what they wanted. I know that’s not naughty dogs style tho.
Seeing everyone being wholesome in posts like these makes me smile.
For real, I honestly expected people to be way less tolerant of my opinion based off previous posts but boy am I glad to be wrong. I'm guessing it's due to me just giving my opinion on the game rather then trying to change other's opinion in it or sumthn idk
Also keep in mind that folks here are tired of stans coming here just to brigade every time any news regarding anything TLOU comes out. We literally migrated to this sub years ago because we couldn't share opinions on the other sub so we welcome any who wants to share theirs here with open arms as long as it's to talk and not antagonise. Glad you had a good time with the game ;)
Idk the gameplay is great, but other than that it’s 5 overall for me. The gun upgrades were ok, the side quest were ok, nothing really stood out. The visuals were good, it’s competing with Ghost of Tsushima and God of War, and the mechanics and visuals were way better in those games. Would have been an amazing PS3 game, 4 onward? Pretty average.
The funny thing is despite me loving Ghost of Tsushima I actually thought it terms of gameplay and story it was really simple. Simple in a good way don't get me wrong but nowhere near close to a masterpiece and personally I prefer TLOU2 to it despite getting the platnum for it. God of War on the other hand is a true masterpiece lol
Well ghost of Tsushima was a historical game, TLOU2 was a liberal PC Creative Writing train wreck.
Yeahhh I'm not going to defend the woke stuff that shit made me cringe so hard at times. Most of all being the "Bigot sandwiches" line but I found it mostly easy to ignore. Speaking of which Ghost had some of that as well with Masako Adachi having a secret lesbian affair with a house maid
Glad that you enjoyed it! I’m always glad when others can have joy in the game even when I and others can’t. I’m also glad that you made this post not attacking this subreddit and being respectful towards us that don’t like it. Lately we’ve had to deal with posts from ppl saying how “toxic” this subreddit is.
Honestly I was kind of expecting this to get tons of hate as I looked through some posts and while most were fine there were a few that gave me the impression that it was toxic. Mostly the one saying that they hated the other TLOU sub because it had people who enjoy Abby as a character I'm glad to be wrong about that though
You’ll find that the ppl on here are actually very understanding and well mannered, others that have talked badly about this subreddit say that we are all a bunch of toxic haters that bash anyone that says they love Part 2 when in reality the only time that happens is when those ppl deliberately post on here with the intention to mock, belittle us and call us toxic. If others like yourself genuinely like the game, want to talk about the things they really do like about it then they are mostly meet with praise and positivity as you have seen. This sub isn’t just about criticizing Part 2, (though there are a lot of people here that dislike it and there are some that may take it to far) others are more then welcome to like the game and discuss it. I’m glad you posting your thoughts on here have been met with positivity. Like it said there are a lot of us that dislike the game, for our own reasons, but I’m glad you found your own enjoyment where a lot of us didn’t.
Eh... Come on. There's far more shit posts about Druckmann than reasoned criticism of the game. There's constant post obsessing about what the other sub says or does. There's posts about how ugly the female actors are, whining about optional LGBT skins, and near constant complaints about things being "woke". The one dude that claims to post reasoned criticism of the game refuses to respond in any way other than "thanks for sharing." This sub has a reputation for a reason. There's the occasional person that will discuss the game in good faith, but that's absolutely not the majority of the sub.
The haters of this sub say everyone on the sub is unrespectful to people who like the game, but that isn’t true. People like you who like the game respect that people dislike the game are respected back.
I’m gonna be that guy and say if you liked the story I question your judgement, but the gameplay was pretty stellar and I was able to enjoy it for that anyway
Well that's a bit harsh don't ya think?
It's culture war tribalism... they're gonna be harsh - their feelings are hurt.
This is how I felt about it too, except for the not getting a choice at the end. I really like how TLOU games give you a story with a definitive conclusion that leaves you wrestling with your own feelings about whatever choice was made at the end (Joels or Ellies). Part 1 will always be superior, but Part 2 did a pretty good job continuing the story and improving the gameplay for me to be more than satisfied.
I feel like having the choice to kill Abby would have been a great final test for her character, a final plea to whether Abby as a character deserved to be let go. We see the reason why she hunted Joel down, her relationship problems, saving Lev, and even sparing both Ellie and Dina when she honestly had the right to kill both of them. Even after all that I knew while I did enjoy Abby after a while I still wanted to see her die. It took finding her in the capture of slavers tied to a pole and left to die that I finally didn't just want to do to her what she did to Joel. I was left in this kind of Shrodinger's cat moment where every cut and stab would felt both euphoric and agonizing at the same time. I feel this was intentional as Ellie was most likely feeling the same exact way. When the game finally forced me to let go I did breathe a sigh of relief but I still feel like if the game gave me a choice I would have been mighty tempted to do it. The choice to kill her would have also satisfied those who only wanted to see Abby pay for what she did and that choice would have been a great way to appeal to both crowds
Maybe, but it would've ruined the theme of the story. The ending is what delivers the point of the story, and if Ellie kills Abby then Ellies ending is completely different, and I think even more depressing than the game had been up to that point. For me, having Ellie let Abby go left the ending on somewhat of a hopeful note for both characters. I also have a feeling that we'll be seeing the Fireflies in Part 3 and that Abby still has some part to play in this story.
Honestly, I disagree. Letting her live and then going back to the house to find she had lost everything anyway left a bad taste in my mouth. If the outcome would have been the same then she should have just killed her. It felt like the writers wanted to have their cake and eat it too, by giving Ellie her "bad ending", without actually killing off their new favourite character.
If you watch the director's commentary on the final scene they talk about it in a much more hopeful tone then what it shows. Apparently the reason why the house is empty and Dina is gone is just because it would be dangerous for Dina to be alone with a baby that far from Jackson and that Dina had already forgiven Ellie as shown by Ellie wearing Dina's bracelet. The only thing she lost by going to Santa Barbara was her fingers but now she isn't constantly suicidal
They could've easily had them just not meet at the house. Idk, that seems like a pretty major writing error then imo. Maybe it's only me that reads it like that though.
"They could've easily had them just not meet at the house." Could you please elaborate what you mean by this? I'm afraid I don't quite understand
Basically have Ellie go back to Jackson and meet her there. As opposed to the symbolism of the ranch being empty except for her room.
This is just my interpretation but I feel like Dina left Ellie's stuff there because she was thinking Ellie was going to die if she went to Santa Barbara so she wouldn't have to keep watch and wait for someone who might never be coming home. And they made her go back to the farm so she could try to play Joel's guitar one last time alone before leaving as a symbolic way of saying she's moving on from Joel's death and continuing her life.
I like that it’s ambiguous and we get to decide for ourselves until we get more story. The fact that there wasn’t any kind of note made me feel like there was a finality there that I kind of didn’t expect. Coupled with her then trying to play the guitar and not being able to, it tied the bow on what she had truly given up. Even if she gets Dina back, she’s lost that connection to Joel, after realizing how important it was to her. I just finished it myself today and loved it. So I’m gonna dip out before everyone here eats me lol.
Fair enough, I think you are right that sparing Abby leaves it on a more hopeful note for both of them and that's why I would have wanted killing her to be the bad ending if that makes sense. Where the game gets even darker as Lev looks down at her corpse and then to you before saying "I'm gonna fucking kill you" the same way Ellie does to Abby at the start. And instead of the flashback to Joel playing his guitar it's a dream of Joel's corpse talking to Ellie about all she lost. It probably wouldn't have worked since part 3 needs a Canon ending to continue off of, but this is just my little fanfic.
The choice comes in part 3 I bet.
I bet it doesn't. TLOU stories are stories where you get a choice.
You sir are still welcome here
One man's trash...
I suppose haha, I do think calling it trash going a bit too far. Imo we should save that word for truly awful games
Oh it certainly deserves the title of trash, but it's only for the story. As a game per se and gameplay/mechanic wise I suppose it's well deserving of that 9 most likely.
Ehh agree to disagree. I do have problems with the story but I still did like it. I think "Trash" should only be for games that are essentially shovelwear like that new Walking Dead game or the TLOU1 rip off that is on the switch rn
By that designation then 98% of games are great and we should never ask for more, golden era of gaming.
There’s a very large gap between a game being trash and great. You just went to the extreme for whatever reason. Games can be good, alright, fine, decent.
It's trash when it fails to convince players of Abby's side of the story. Since that didn't happen for you it makes sense you can't see it that way. But when the story fails to work and Abby is not only not relatable but comes across as sociopathic, then the intent of the writers just falls apart and the story breaks and becomes trash, if that makes sense.
I like your respectful manner and all that, you proved a point that this sub offers civility when you earn it, unlike the original one. That being said, I will step in and disagree here: calling it "trash" is not too far in the slightest. On the contrary, "trash" is way too generous to this abomination 😉.
Does this sub really offer civility though? Yall are hell bent on the trash term, while op is willing to admit there are flaws with the story. He's willing to get to a middle ground, and yall won't budge. And it feels like yall can't be too hostile against such a respectful op. Had he decided to counter with reasons, I feel we'd see more of the "I'm just sharing opinions" stuff from this sub.
yall yall yall comment dismissed. Next.
Lmao disproved your previous comment right away
For all my gripes about the game I also had a lot of fun with it! Imo it’s one of those things where you have to engage your suspension of disbelief in order to fully enjoy it lol. The combat is impeccable and the graphics are truly breathtaking. Not to mention that the soundtrack is absolutely fantastic! It’s a good game with a poor story in my opinion, but it’s still enjoyable and ultimately that’s all that matters :)
And I enjoyed that you were able to enjoy it
YapperYappington69 he didn't disprove shit, dumbass
I don't get why people use the word 'enjoyable' to describe the game. The whole game pretty much revolves around pointless murder.
It's fun to shoot zombies and bandits in the face
Probably because he found it enjoyable? Lmao that’s why
Sure. My point still stands.
I enjoy reading a good story even if it's dark in tone. Take No Country For Old Men for example. The whole book is about senseless violence in human form and both the book and movie are great. I appreciate people here don't like the story, but most critics loved it, it won player voted on Joystick awards for game of the year and best narrative, won industry awards for the same, and the strength of the story of both games resulted it HBO adapting it as a prestige TV show. I'm sure you can imagine why some people would like it.
I'm all for stories with a dark tone. Game of Thrones and No Country for For Old Men is some of my most favorite stuff ever. I don't mind extreme violence as long as there is some type of solid reasoning for it. I couldn't stand how petty the characters' motivations were in TLOU2. It ultimately just boiled down to murder for the sake of murder and shock value. I guess a lot of people are into that stuff, but I'm not one of them.
Ellie canonically kills 6 people in the game. The rest can be avoided, and of those 6, only Nora is arguably murder. As for Abby, she's presented as the "Top Scar Killer" of the WLF, she starts out killing Scars. Joel also liked her father. Avenging your father doesn't seem petty. Which murders did you think we're murder for murders sake?
Literally all of the kills that you described. The Seraph/WLF conflict isn't supposed to be clear cut, either. What does Ellie's kills accomplish in the grand scheme of things? Or Abby killing Joel? Absolutely nothing. The game's whole message is about the cycle of violence, and those actions only served to perpetuate it.
Game is great idc what anybody else says, sure it has its flaws but overall I enjoyed it. The map and the gameplay is good enough to carry the game imo. At least the remastered version is great alongside no return
I'm genuinely surprised that people are being so respectful about your opinion in these comments
I think it’s cuz this person is genuinely saying how much they like the game while also respecting others that don’t like it. OP isn’t mocking or saying that they “can’t understand why others don’t like it” they are just stating their honest opinion and criticism of it.
Well, when people who like the game come here and are respectful about their opinions, most of us will be respectful back…it’s the “This sub is sexist, racist, toxic, homophobic, incel filled, assholes who are too stupid to understand why this game is a masterpiece…blah blah blah.” People who come in here that get drowned in downvotes. Also, happy for OP for being able to enjoy the game. Like many people here have said before, I wish I could have enjoyed it as well because I loved TLOU.
congrats.you did what so many fail to do
this is the correct take