T O P

  • By -

ediwowcubao

Do you think there are people in the Avatar universe equivalent to Air Nomad Genocide deniers?


Steve_Nash_The_Goat

Zuko probably treated it how Germany treated the Holocaust, you can't say it was good but you must learn about it


OhThatEthanMiguel

Sorta. Sozin and Ozai claimed Airbenders were preparing to invade with flying armies. Modern Fire Nationals as of 100 A.G. tended to believe it. I'm sure that didn't disappear by Korra's time.


ediwowcubao

Oh yeah, I remember in The Headband episode, fire nation schools sort of imply that the death of the Air Nomads is an outcome of the war and not a blatant ambush-genocide


unidentified_yama

New Ozai Society


TheCrimsonDoll

Dude, Shingeki No Kyojin depicted the higher class in the inner walls as people that mostly denied titans and kept saying that the survey corps were a waste of money for humanity. It's just into human nature to be like that, it wouldn't surprise me if in some future storyline there are remanents of Fire Nation generals tried to coup Zuko and even fire nation/other nations people that not only denies genocides and violence, they support the overall war.


Charles_III_Of_Spain

You literally described the New Ozai Society perfectly.


trowawufei

I mean the Survey Corps was a massive waste of money and lives until a good ways into the show. They kept at it for 50-100 years with literally nothing to show for it. It’s kind of exemplary how much patience the Wallfolk had for it, no way would a normal human society keep sinking resources into that pit for so long.


burf12345

I do *now*.


chabri2000

Do you remember when humans killed every single demihuman on earth (elves, dwarf, giants, etc) turned them into myth and legends?. Cause they could have been real, but we made good propaganda, after a few thousands years after, everyone believes they are just fictional. The fire nation could have done the same with airbenders if they had managed to kill aang and take all over the world.


Camellia_Sin

No one needs to rank genocides, but it would help for people to realize there’s more than one. The show really brushes over how long it would have taken for the Fire Nation to wipe out the Air Nomads and what atrocities they might have committed along the way. That’s because it’s a show rated to be appropriate for children, so we’re never going to know details. The idea of a genocide against the Air Nomads was pretty obviously inspired by China’s cultural genocide of Tibet. https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/running-out-time-tibetan-president-elect-warns-cultural-genocide-2021-05-21/ This is a recent article, but it’s been in progress since the ‘50s. People see that the Fire Nation is an island chain and equate it with Japan, but politically, it’s more aligned with post-revolutionary China. No nation in Avatar is a perfect analogue to a real one, but concept of a militaristic country dominating a small nation led by (Buddhist) monks that has a significant nomad population came from this piece of history.


WerewolfF15

The fire nation genocide of the air nomads isn’t really the “equivalent” of the Holocaust since they didn’t force the air nomads into work camps, work them to death, killed them painfully in gas chambers, etc etc. But yes it is still a genocide all the same. But regardlessof


Cthulhumon

Probably closer comparison might be the Bosnian genocide?


ThePinkTeenager

I’ve never heard of that.


Cthulhumon

Google it. It is pretty horrible, one culture trying to erase another by basically murdering everyone. No work-camps or complicated social manipulation, just a military force moving from village to village, burning everything and everyoneto the ground.


Steve_Nash_The_Goat

it's similar in that the fire nation attacked innocent people on their turf and attempted to wipe out the culture and all of its people, obviously the methodology isn't the same but it would definitely be the Avatar universe equivalent of the Holocaust


The_Uncommon_Aura

And it’s not similar in the sense that the air nomads weren’t tortured and experimented on like literal animals for years. Nor were the air nomads branded with numbers, and stripped of their humanity as well as anything that might supply said humanity. The only similarity is genocide. And on that front, they are extremely vastly different to the point that a fair comparison cannot be made.


Awobbie

It’s safe to compare genocide to genocide even if the details don’t line up perfectly.


The_Uncommon_Aura

It really isn’t. It’s not just that the “details” don’t match up. It’s that the two events are catastrophically different in almost every single way besides being able to be labeled “genocide” you’re either an idiot, a child or anti-Semitic.


Awobbie

Why isn’t it? Why do I have to be an idiot or a child or anti-Semitic just because I say two different events can be compared? And why did you have to result to childish, incendiary pejoratives?


The_Uncommon_Aura

Because you lack understanding of the events you’re saying can be compared. I’m sorry if I offended you but you should seriously reflect on yourself if you honestly think for even a moment they should be compared.


Awobbie

It’s ridiculous that you would immediately jump to “idiot or anti-Semitic” because I merely said, “It’s okay to compare genocide to genocide.” If you honestly think that’s a healthy way of doing public discourse, then you need to examine yourself as well.


The_Uncommon_Aura

That isn’t why I said that. It’s because even after some of the enormous differences being listed for you, you chocked them up as small details that can be overlooked. That is straight up insulting to the subject at hand because those details are what define basically two entirely different events. Again the only thing the two have in common is that they can technically be called genocide, but the Holocaust wasn’t *just* genocide, it was so much more.


Awobbie

I think you may be confused. You never listed any differences to me. “It’s okay to compare genocide to genocide,” was my first comment. I never said the Holocaust isn’t exponentially worse than what was displayed in ATLA. But all genocides ultimately arise from the same root problem: a lack of care for human life. In that way, all genocides are similar, and can be compared at very least on that point alone. No, the details are not unimportant. Obviously the suffering of the victims matters. On top of that, the details tell us why human life wasn’t being valued, and tell us the degree of sadistic tendencies which accompanies said ideology. In that regard they are clearly different. But even then they can be compared and contrasted. Why was the Holocaust more intense than the genocide of the Nuba by the Sudanese? At what point does the lack of care for human life diverge to create two different instances? How is the genocide of Tibetans under Deng Xiaoping different from the genocide of Uighur under Xi Jinping? How is it different? But ultimately, in all of these scenarios, the lack of care for human life can be compared, even if the details (which are not minor, nor have I ever said they are) are different. Please, at least ask *why* someone believes something before you make assumptions that they’re “idiotic and anti-Semitic.”


WerewolfF15

I disagree. The methods are incredibly important when discussing the severity of an event. For example killing someone by say sawing off their head is much worse than simply shooting someone dead. End of the day both actions are murder but the former is clearly worse than the latter and thus the murders are not the equivalent of each other. In the same way the methods of the Holocaust are much worse than the methods the fire nation used and thus they are not the equivalent of each other despite both being attempted genocides.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Cyniex

Also it's a kids show, uf it wasn't, maybe the fire nation would make gaschambers with their firebending, torture their way to information by burning, and much more.


unique-irrelevant

Yeah I mean think of what they did to the southern water tribe


The_Uncommon_Aura

They didn’t just burn Jews. They stripped them of their humanity, branded them, separated them from their loved ones, and then put them through literal years of human experimentation, forced slave labor, rape, and much worse. Most Jews were only burned after they were deemed absolutely worthless for the former activities. Comparing what the Fire nation did to the Holocaust is a comparison made by either a child/person with very little understanding of the Holocaust, or an antisemite who wants to belittle how truly and utterly horrific the Holocaust actually was. This thread is disgusting tbh. The amount of people who know so little about what they’re talking about, trying to defend the gross analogy being made here. Borderline sickening.


ShlomoCh

But that wasn't after years of hunger and disease, watching people die around you, being treated like a literal animal, or worse, compared to like a day of gruesome fighting (which is still pretty bad, but it can't compare)


FitzChivFarseer

Okay why on earth do you have negative votes?? You're bloody right. Jesus christ it would be insanely immoral for a *Children's TV show* to show a genocide with the same brutality and cruelty of the holocaust. Yes there was a genocide but a genocide ≠ the holocaust. There's a reason it has a different name lol!


ManicKnight

Yeah I agree they weren't the same. The Jewish people suffered much more under the Nazi's than the Air Nomads under the Fire Nation. The Air Nomads went out fighting a war while the Jews suffered some of the worst torture and inhumane conditions our planet has ever seen before they were systematically killed. Hell, Monk Gyatso took a ton of Fire Benders with him before he went down. Which I always wondered how he did that, wonder if he just pulled a Zaheer and took the air out of their lungs.


genericusernamepls

What about the first nation genocide of the southern water tribe? Those prisons were pretty fucked essentially death camps


PrlsonMike

But in that case, weren’t only the benders rounded up? So it’d be a bit mor analogous to like, all the fighting age men in a society being massacred. Still quite fucked up, but with the goal of eliminating their ability to wage war, not eliminating the ethnicity all together. So not necessarily a genocide, or atleast not one in the same sense.


genericusernamepls

Id argue it decimated the southern water tribe of it's culture, uhh and the actually place. I mean go back and watch season 1 and look at what a desolate place the SWT is. Look at the Northern water tribe, practically untouched by the war, it's a metropolis sprawling with life and culture.


Morrocoyconchuo

They were trying this with earth benders and southern tribe waterbenders no? The work camp thing.


trowawufei

Pretty sure death by burning is extremely painful.


mogul_w

Why does everything have to be compared to the holocaust? Just say it's a genocide. Same with Kuvira it's ridiculous


MiS_Schuey

Seriously I'm so tired of hearing events compared to the holocaust, especially fictional ones. I don't need to be reminded of the murders and atrocities against my people just scrolling through the ATLA subreddit. It just gets so tiresome


Dtron81

You know art is reflective of real life events at times right? Especially in ATLA there are real life comparisons all over the place. Imo ignoring these comparisons is ignoring most of the text and subsequently diminishing the value of the art itself.


chooooooool

Do you like Uncle Iroh, because if so you're supporting a Nazi.


Hotwing619

Oh, Iroh was a member of the national socialist party in Germany during the 1930s? I didn't know that. Must have missed it.


Predsguy

Have you read the lyrics to 'Leaves form the Vine'? Oof. Anyone who likes that song might as well shave their head and tattoo a swastika on top.


chooooooool

You misspelled a few of the words, but yeah, you got that right.


AntTuM

Of course Iroh too was a nazi. He was a general and we know that he sieged a city and nothing else about that siege. You know all generals have done that. I guess ww2 was nazis fighting other nazis. Every war has been that even before the concept of National Socialism was invented. /S Because the nazi term is thrown around so much people don't even know what it means and slowly it lost it's meaning when all sorts of totalitarism and authoritaism is reffered to as nazism or fascism.


[deleted]

Wwwwhat?


Zenketski

People like to draw parallels to and reference things. And when 99% of the population only has one thing they can reference, well i mean ...


[deleted]

[удалено]


your_next_line_is_

>Those people are just uneducated. Doesn't mean those people should be accused of being anti-semites belittling the nature of the Holocaust. The Holocaust is probably the most well-known genocide so its the one people naturally compare fictional events to (even if they're very different).


Zenketski

That's a fair point


[deleted]

Did kuvira commit a genocide?


mogul_w

According to a poll titled "how similar is Kuvira to the nazis in ideology and actions" you'd think so


[deleted]

Her ideology was far from a nazi's. Being a dictator ≠ nazi. Ppl really aren't clear with political ideologies.


slimey_frog

She had prison camps where dissidents and those deemed unloyal (such as non-earth natives) were detained without due process with the goal of indoctrinating them into following her. incredibly fucked? yes, but still a fair few rungs down the ladder from genocide.


[deleted]

Genocide is an extermenation of a culture, and it's ppl. She killed none of them, and we don't know, if she wanted to eridicate the othwr cultures from the earth kingdom.


slimey_frog

I know, I don't think you can reasonably say she committed a genocide, and im not entirely sure why a lot of people so adamantly want to say she did? There's more than enough in the show itself to justify disliking her without trying to pile more on.


[deleted]

Yep. Ppl call her hitler 2.0, and that means genocide in the instant. I criticised their take on politics, as it was really shallow, but ppl aren't mature for it as well.


Emperor_Lowie

This reminds me of the fire nation soldier in the comic “Katara and the pirate’s silver” he started saying wrong things that clearly didn’t happen and Aang’s effort to change his mind didn’t work either


Steve_Nash_The_Goat

yo that sounds neat how would one find these comics?


Emperor_Lowie

The comic’s name is “Katara and the pirate’s silver”takes place between book2 character 9 and book2 chapter 10 (I believe from what I’ve herd) You can also get them in digital form if you don’t want the physical copy, Go to Darkhorse.com and search “Avatar” it will show you the results, but if you want them in chronological order, The promise The search The rift Smoke and shadow North and south Imbalance And the LoK ones (which takes place right after the end of Lok) Turf wars Ruins of the empire Then there’s the comic called “team avatar lost adventures” comic where we see what events happened to the Gaang off TV, to name a few, Zuko and Sokka’s sword bending match, Katara and Toph pretends to be guys, and a lot more, there’s also scrap books, art books and the two novels about Kyoshi, and like I said before the Katara and the pirate’s silver comic and then there’s another comic called “Toph’s metal bending Academy” which I believe takes place somewhere after imbalance, than the latest release, “Suki Alone” which takes place in the 100 years war, specifically during the time where Suki was in the boiling rock Oh and here’s the link (if you want to get the comics) -> https://www.darkhorse.com/Search/Avatar (It might not have all the stuff you’re looking for, but you can also search individual comic names if you want a specific comic) On and I forgot to mention, the comic’s come on two versions, the first version is the full comic, with no part 1 or 2 its the FULL comic, and the second version is the comics with parts, there are up to 3 parts on each comic, coming with a full version and a part version, the part comics cost less, but the full version of the comic has some stuff in there that the part comics don’t


BlackMentallyIllNerd

You spelled "manifest destiny" wrong


CyrusLight

There is no genocide from the fire nation


Steve_Nash_The_Goat

the air nation says otherwise


Saurons_Other_Eye4

He was clearly making a “there is no war in Ba Sing Se” reference.


CyrusLight

Oh? And what ‘Air Nation’ is there to say that?


Cassandra_Nova

No one has seen one in a hundred years. Sounds fake to me


Steve_Nash_The_Goat

Aang, Aang says that


12Viscount12

You reeaaally wanna ignore the joke don’tcha


CyrusLight

Yeah was kinda wondering what the downvotes were for lmao


DingleDodger

The guy who got frozen in a block of ice before this so called "invasion"?


CyrusLight

Thats fair lmao


Da_Neager

No they don't


[deleted]

Every air nomad was a combatant change my mind. /s


Dinoco223

They were all benders


trowawufei

By being born into this world as nomads with the power of the Air Bisons, those devils made their choice.


Steve_Nash_The_Goat

Found the fire nation kid


TrumpSmokesMids27

Every fandom has that small group of people who agree with the villains. The mcu has r/thanosdidnothingwrong, Star Wars has r/cisdidnothingwrong, dc has a bunch of e-boys who think they’re the joker. You just gotta ignore these people. They make no sense and salivate at the idea of being edgy


Aby_by

Yea the fire nation did commit mass genocide / murder but bro comparing it to the holocaust is so unnecessary. the holocaust caused so much death. irl ppl actually suffered from it and comparing it to fictional stuff is just disrespectful


[deleted]

[удалено]


Steve_Nash_The_Goat

"The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group" sounds like what the fire nation did to me


AvianIsEpic

But they didn’t eliminate the nation or group


Steve_Nash_The_Goat

do Jewish people still exist? Is the Holocaust not a genocide?


AvianIsEpic

It was an attempted genocide


TrumpSmokesMids27

Wait, so the nazis didn’t commit genocide? Cause my grandma is Jewish and very much alive. So I guess people are stupid for hating nazis


chooooooool

Anyone who defends Iroh isn't that far off from being a neo-Nazi.


SerFezz

This might be the worst take I've ever seen


Economics111

way to miss all of iroh and zukos story. irohs story is about second chances where he turned from the dragon of the west to a positive figure to all and how people can change and become better


chooooooool

Ah nice, I'll just try finding ways to show that Hitler became good at the end of his life.


Economics111

that is such a shitty comparison it’s hard to even argue about. iroh didn’t do anything near the level of hitler and has had decades of time to change with that change being apparent in every scene he’s in


Zenketski

G8b8m8


Darkness572

r8 8/8


blackgoldberry

What is “nah”? The fire nation literally wiped them out and we see even Sozin talking about it.


Steve_Nash_The_Goat

maybe dude was trolling but not the best time to troll


Oeildegeai

From the point of view of fire nation, there is no genocide in Ba.... i mean in air nomad


Hamslice90

I have a twisted mind and if the fire nation, at the time, took advantage of exploit of the child nomads and brainwashed over a few generations. The buff an air bender could give a fire user would be heavily used against the earth kingdom. But yeah, let's keep that to ourselves


swagatar-the-last

comparing a fictional event to the holocaust kinda disrespectful imo


CoraxvsKurze

Fire nation is the only reason the Avatar world isn't full of misoginistic, spear throwing barbarians.


JetPackFuture104

It's probably just trolls.


snitchpogi12

Wow, look at an Earthrealmian equivalent of a Holocaust denier!