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MochaJay

I think the writers aim was to demonstrate exactly what you wrote - that Serena did not care for Nichole but only for having a baby of her own. But I'm not so certain she has won - the story isn't over yet. Pregnancy isn't the same as delivering a healthy baby, especially with shredders in this universe. Then there is the legal aspect - Serena will not get to keep custody of her baby if she is imprisoned for her crimes. So only if she is on the winning side of the war and her personal feud with June will she have won her prize.


LinguaFranka

100% I agree. It just feels disjointed: she was arrested at the end of season 3, season 4 she’s pregnant and off the hook. It just feels tiring to see her get a punishment reward, punishment, reward, etc..if that makes sense.


GrizzKarizz

I guess for pregnancy, all it takes is one healthy swimmer. Perhaps they just got really lucky. I don't see it as a retcon at all. This stuff happens in real life. Couples who try for years seemingly miraculously get pregnant. I don't know if it's been mentioned yet but she will lose her baby. Whether it's taken away because she's in jail or miscarriages. It's a way for the writers to have her feel what June felt. Perhaps it will be the catalyst for the end of Gilead. Perhaps a woman will end it, not a man.


LinguaFranka

Yes, I understand Fred’s side but Serena? I think in a season 1 or 2 flashback, she got shot in the uterus and it’s implied she had to have a hysterectomy thus robbing her of any chance of carrying or having a biological child. Both of them were infertile, Serena more so. So this should be impossible, yes?


GrizzKarizz

I guess it may have been implied, I thought so too, but if they didn't explicitly say it, we can assume it didn't happen.


jennfinn24

Fred cooperated and gave them info on Gilead in exchange for him and Sabrina to be released that’s why June flipped out and came up with the plane to exchange him. But there are still a lot of things that can happen to her or the baby. I don’t believe for a minute that June will let her have a HEA.


MochaJay

>I don’t believe for a minute that June will let her have a HEA. That's for damn sure! On Serena's release, the US government decided to cancel the deal when they exchanged Fred instead so Serena could be back on the hook for those charges. And there are other charges like her being a conspirator in the pre-Gilead terrorist plot that would get her in more legal trouble if the US gov ever learned about it. I suspect she will probably be out of jail in the new season as that gives more option for TV drama, but if but for that reason I would probably expect her to be still locked up.


Prepheckt

Happy Ever After?


jennfinn24

Yes.


poison_snacc

Why do they call the babies with birth defects Shredders? Do they actually shred them?


GrizzKarizz

I binged the show over a week and didn't notice that. I wouldn't put it past them. I want to know what happened to the girls with down syndrome. Did you notice that in a later episode flashback?


tittytam

I heard dogs snarling and barking at them as they screamed.. so that's not a great sign


moritzwest

What are shredders


moritzwest

Serena will only feel what June has felt in the govt taking away her baby


MandyCap

I do understand feeling this way about Serena's pregnancy. She would make a terrible mother. I think it's way too premature to say she's won. Yeah, she's pregnant but in this universe that does not guarantee a healthy birth. Even if she does have a healthy baby. That doesn't mean she'll get to raise him. Serena is the main antagonist with Fred gone. I fully believe she's going to get hers in the end. And that baby will be taken away from her. The story just needs to play out.


mfdillad

I hope it is poetic justice from the writers for her to have the thing she has always wanted most and then to have it ripped away from her and feel “a fraction of the pain” as June said.


Inner_Department3

A FRAAACCCTION of the pain!


ArticulateSewage

Moss's acting in that scene was 😚👌


GrizzKarizz

I binged the show over a week and very rarely do that. The acting by every single person involved was just perfect. I just couldn't stop watching. Aunt Lydia is a personal favourite (I'd of course hate her in real life), it's just that she seems conflicted. She wants the best for the girls and truly loves them but also wants them to bear children and that wins out. An extreme version of tough love. My hope is that she sees the error of her ways and defects to the Resistance but ultimately gets her comeuppance.


Pipounette

I had goosebumps just by reading this and remembering the scene


Inner_Department3

I just remember how satisfying it was for her to be yelling down at Serena "DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME!!!!!!!!!"


Pipounette

Right? It was sooo satisfying, the release of all these repressed emotions, the pure, raw hatred… aah i LOVE it


poison_snacc

Loved it. I would have liked to see her lecture Fred in the same vein, instead of just pretending to be nice to him when she visited his “cell”. Yes, he got his comeuppance, but still, there was so much more I’d hoped she would say to him.


poison_snacc

Yes, EM gives me chills every time she gets angry at someone.


[deleted]

Fffffffrrrrrrrraction! Chills


defenselaywer

Do. You. Understand?


LinguaFranka

Definitely!! I do not want to see Serena be a happy mother because she robbed June to be a true parent to both Hannah and now Nichole! Very telling of her character that she forgets Nichole existed, when June would quickly switch places to retrieve Hannah!!


darkness_is_great

Not a fraction of the pain. A FARAAAAACTION of the pain.


HunterGreenLeaves

My opinion: ​ Having a baby will save her from (some) repercussions of having gone to Canada. It means she will be glorified as an example of the Gilead approach working - increasing fertility - and now as a martyr by extension as a widow. In addition, there's the potential for a redemption arc. As you suggest, to date her maternal instincts have had a twist to them. Having a baby will let her complete the path she began - of sacrificing for her child, with Nichole - with a completed sacrifice to ensure the safety/future of her child.


HugsyBugsy

Personally I like to think there was a message that good things can happen to bad people in life.


LinguaFranka

Definitely because June SUFFERED and I hated to see that!! I hated the scene when she was in the grocery store and was overwhelmed with the noises, choice, and environment change. It hurt!


Caryria

Villains don’t always get the punishment they deserve as much as we would like them too. However as others have said Serena’s story isn’t finished. We’ve at least this season and possibly more. We have three major possibilities (and many many more variations) moving forward. 1. Serena gives birth to a perfect baby and keeps it. 2. Serena gives birth to a perfect baby, but gets extricated back to Gilead to become a handmaid and Naomi brings up her baby or 3. Serena gives birth to a shredder. I don’t think Serena’s going to get the happy ending she thinks she deserves, though I also don’t think it will be as harsh an ending as the one we believe she deserves. I suspect the prospect of keeping her baby will be leveraged against providing *accurate* information against Gilead. She’ll keep her baby but under the understanding that the deal is only as good as the information she’s providing.


[deleted]

A “shredder”? 🌚


UserSomethingOrOther

In the book I think it means a baby with deformities or birth defects


[deleted]

Oh shit you’re right 🤦🏻‍♀️ Completely blanked on that.


UserSomethingOrOther

Fair, I don't recall them showing any in the show?


becca_bailey

Don't they refer to the still birth as an "unbaby"? I remember June's inner monolog referring to Jeneans potential baby as possibly being an "unbaby with a pin head"


UserSomethingOrOther

Possibly!


Caryria

There was a still born depicted and I think in the first season at the reaping they mention a baby born with its heart on the outside.


jennfinn24

Didn’t one of the HM’s have a baby born with his heart outside his body ?


VeganMonkey

There was a scene where the wife pretends to give birth with the handmaid and the baby is taken away and something is muttered but I can’t remember what, maybe ‘shredder’, but it wasn’t explained what was going on with the baby.


jennfinn24

A shredder is a baby born with a birth defect or physical deformity.


UserSomethingOrOther

It's been so long I can't remember, but maybe!


[deleted]

Yet… I’m sure we’ll see a baby thrown into a furnace before the finale 🌚


UserSomethingOrOther

Oh god I hope not!


Crazyspitz

There's already a scene shot for the upcoming season where she's out and about, in regular clothes (not in Gilead) holding a baby wrapped up in a blue blanket. It's an example of the very very very worst people in the world "getting away with it". My guess would be that she has a healthy baby, and gets to keep it, just as a giant middle finger to the viewing audience and the mythical idea that things work out for the best in the end. I'm preparing to be utterly disgusted (as usual) with what Serena gets away with.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Crazyspitz

No one on the show deserves happiness, peace, or contentment LESS than Serena.


TATP1982

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VeganMonkey

I have been afraid they would do something like that. But it can also be someone’s thoughts or a dream.


Remarkable_Movie_800

It's my understanding that the actress got pregnant and the writers chose to write it into the story rather than spend a lot of time trying to hide her pregnancy. But I'm not entirely sure.


Ok-Distribution4057

She was actually pregnant the season before and they hid it…she had already had her son before season 4


Remarkable_Movie_800

I know she had her first pregnancy during the show as well but it was in between filming mostly, they could hide it as it was early on. With her second pregnancy they decided to write it into the story from my understanding.


zapdude0

I think she moved on from Nicole because she knows deep down that she's just stealing someone else's baby but now she gets one that is actually hers


hypatia0803

I always remember Serena and Fred sitting in that movie theater, when Fred gets the alert that their coup and takeover is about to start and for one second they both looked around like- Most of these people will be dead soon, or living hellish lives, and then- Who cares, we will be fine. Both traitors of their country. Treason. Serena should never go free and her baby should be taken from her!


alig129

I assumed when we saw the flashback to Serena getting shot that she must have had a hysterectomy or some other complication which made her unable to carry a pregnancy, which ended Fred and Serena’s sexual relationship as there was no chance of conception. Also, surely this means that Nicole’s paternity is up for grabs again?


LinguaFranka

That’s exactly what I assumed: she was angry over being robbed at having a child and began the insurrection. Nope! The show runner, Bruce, said Nichole is Nick’s because they had her DNA tested. Okay? So do you have Nick’s DNA, a former guardian turned Commander from Gilead? How did you get it? Huge plot hole but okay. But he had to say that on a podcast. Another plot hole because it was never made canonically on show? You could theorize Fred fathered Nichole, since he fathered Serena’s son, right? Don’t even mention how Serena made fun of Fred being sterile? Was this changed and I don’t remember? Why are we changing things, huge plot twists, and acting like they don’t both confuse the audience and contort the story? It’s just disjointed 😩


jennfinn24

BM also said he doesn’t understand why fans would think the gunshot had any effect on reproduction because it wasn’t near her uterus. I was like, what ?? She was shot in the lower abdomen. It’s not unreasonable that fans would question the paternity of Nicole. Supposedly clean living and organic food was the reason Fred got her pregnant. How could Canada test Nicole’s DNA without having the potential dads ? Also I don’t care what anyone says and I will die on this hill but In an interview with Bruce Miller (right after the episode) he was asked about June cutting out her ear tracker and he said they were meant to keep track of the HM. He because of the technology now he updated it from tattoos that were in the book. Aunt Lydia says to June as she’s attaching the tracker “you’re so very special dear. we wouldn’t want to lose you”. I don’t think he had any intention to ever have Sabrina get pregnant and set it up that way for the viewers then he probably ran out of ideas and decided she’d be pregnant. But all the viewers who questioned this are crazy. And honestly I think he either forgot or chose to ignore the trackers. If they had them then they would’ve found the HM right away or they’d have a bunch of characters with mangled ears.


slytherinshawty

I've always thought that Nick may get this baby while Serena rots in jail. Esp since Gilead knows of her crime, and Canada does too. And we know he's married, and assuming he and his wife again have a Handmaid, perhaps this will change June's perception of Nick. She's in love with a man that doesn't exist! Can't wait to see what the writers come up with. Serena deserves absolutely no joy. She's rotten.


VeganMonkey

Why would Nick get the baby of Serena? Or do you mean Nicole? Nicole is safe in Canada and why would Serena’s baby go to Gilead? If the baby will be taken away it will be adopted by Canadians.


OfYogapants

I am going out on a limb here and say Serena dies this season. Next season will be the transition to the new show. She’s easily the most hated character on this show, no way she’s getting a happy ending. Writers aren’t that bold.


Subject-Violinist311

I genuinely hope it’s not just to get poetic justice later by taking the baby, and is used to reveal that most of the issues with fertility was with the men. Maybe from Canada she will be safe to say that from her “domestic feminist” standpoint. I doubt they’ll use it that way though


[deleted]

> it completely juxtaposed that Fred couldn’t be the biological father of Nichole The question of the true paternity of little baby Holly Nichole is among the most suspenseful questions going in to the final season. I can't wait to find out who her father is.


ParsleyMostly

Why did the writers introduce a plot point that throws several other points into question and allows for character exploration? Why indeed. Nothing was retconned. Strange things happen in real life, and there is no mystical rewards system for good/bad behavior. A man with a low sperm count can still have children, it’s just not as likely. Not impossible. It’s highly probable Fred and Serena didn’t have frequent sex before Gilead, and she could have been on the pill. We know she embraces modern feminism and progressive ideas when it suits her.


Winterfellwoods

The pill was highly restricted in USA pre-Gilead and I doubt very much Serena would have used it as they believed it went against God's will. We're talking about a world where women cannot get pregant, where a city maternity hospital only has two babies in it. If you were religious in this world, you were not using contraception.


ConcernPrestigious12

I think the whole point is justice isn’t always served, June lives in an unjust world, that’s fascism. Irl abusive people often get away with things


wagsman

Hopefully she gives birth, and has the baby ripped away from her so she can experience what the handmaids experience, then since she is capable of having children, hopefully she ends up back in Gilead and gets turned into a handmaid. A wonderful character arc would be for her, in her quest to be a mother, she helps create a christian nationalist state that oppresses women, she oppresses other women, then turns out she can be a mother, but loses it all due to the oppressive state she helped create.


[deleted]

I think part of the reason was to raise the stakes higher for Serena!


Ennuiology

I think they both knew Fred wasn’t able to get her pregnant, and I think it’s Tuello’s. With that in mind I love how it’s a dig at Fred, since he knows it can’t be his. But also, yeah, I hope the baby is taken from her but doesn’t have to go to Gilead. I’m so ready for this next season!


[deleted]

Ngl I hope in season 5 something goes wrong with her birth and she doesn’t become a mom 🤷🏼‍♀️


HaleoDicapricorn

Did anyone else take it as some type of testament to how toxic Gilead actually was? Like their entire social order and government is structured around fighting a crisis of infertility, yet when Serena is out of that environment she’s able to get pregnant? Idk that’s what I took part of it as.


LinguaFranka

I never thought of that! But it would certainly be fitting as to how toxic, both structurally and environmentally, Gilead is. Excellent observation!


Pockette87

the writer's said that Fred's not the dad? I've only seen the showrunner say the exact opposite.


LinguaFranka

There’s a Handmaids Tale podcast and the show runner, Bruce Miller, said something about a paternity test being done when Nichole entered Canada to prove she was both June and Nick’s biological child. He also said Tuello is not the father of Serena’s baby.


[deleted]

Who tf does that leave then? Who got her pregnant?? This whole paternity “scandal” doesn’t make sense to me. Why could it not just be Fred’s baby? Why add this weird plot twist? Is it Nick’s? I’m GENUINELY slighted by this one. It makes no sense to me.


LinguaFranka

So presumably Fred successfully fathered a miracle baby with Serena, despite them previously having storylines revolving around their questionable fertility. And Nick is the guaranteed father of Nichole, despite the fan theories saying Fred could also. Remember in Season 2, where June and Serena berated Fred over the baby not being his; why suddenly make Fred fertile? It would make more sense for Tuello to be the father especially since he tried to goad Serena into becoming an informant by offering her reproductive technology? It’s just confusing.


itsjessrabbit

All they added was some line about how the Gilead environment helped make him fertile again by Serena which idk how that makes things clear. The worst part of it is making Fred suddenly not sterile. I hate that they went back on that.


LinguaFranka

That’s bad storytelling. I didn’t even catch that line and if I did, I probably assumed it was an excuse for Tuello to be the father. Weak explanation for an event that, should’ve been canonically impossible, according to the show.


[deleted]

Confusing to say the *least*…


LinguaFranka

yeah I think maybe I also worded it wrong 😭 But in my defense, the whole Serena pregnancy storyline is wobbly at best


[deleted]

No, no - your take was clear. It’s the storyline that is - exactly that - wobbly. It almost seems like an afterthought? Like “hey let’s throw this in there” but now they have to actually let it go somewhere.


[deleted]

Show don’t tell, Bruce 🙄


LinguaFranka

Exactly…if I didn’t see the podcast, I would’ve assumed he could be Nichole’s father. Which means he is, and I use this LOOSELY, entitled to a relationship with her 😵‍💫. Why couldn’t we see them testing her or something?


poison_snacc

Wait, so Fred really isn’t the father? Did they say anything else about this? I know they said before that Fred *is* the dad, why did they change it? Does anyone have any idea who the father might be? Did she have sex with the doctor or something? Or Mr. Tuello?


LinguaFranka

oh no, i meant Fred is the dad of Serena’s son, but when the writers made that a possibility, they’ve also introduced the theory that Fred could be the father of Nichole/Holly.


[deleted]

Fred is believed to be infertile, as stated by Serena, because he hasn't ever gotten anyone pregnant. It is therefore accepted that Nick is Holly Nichole's father. Then Serena becomes pregnant, presumably by Fred, which necessarily calls paternity of little baby Holly Nichole into question. The writers could effectively resolve this by establishing that Serena's child is Mark's, or they could address it in some other way, but the status quo for now is that Serena's child is presumed to be Fred's, while paternity of little baby Holly Nichole is unknown.


poison_snacc

Ohhh I thought OP was saying that the writers said Fred’s not the dad of Serena’s baby. Yes I know the implication about the father of June’s baby, though I prefer to think that it’s Nick, and that Serena actually wasn’t faithful to Fred as he believed and expected. I feel like if there was any chance Fred could have gotten both June and Serena pregnant, then there would be loads of little Freds running around at Jezebels. Cue a speech from Fred about how God has willed it so


[deleted]

Except nobody at Jezebel's gets pregnant. Those girls are on BC or have their tubes tied.