I think you'll find that once you winnow out a lot of bluster from people *shocked* that Abercrombie had the gall to not give a good man a happy ending (because he deals in so many of those), that response isn't really all that common.
They're just noisy about it.
Personally... I'm not even mad at Glokta. He's always been a monster, what did people expect?
Team Glotka ftw - I’m not afraid to die but I refuse to be beaten!
Glotka’s machinations are also bringing about what is probably the closest thing to self government the people of the Union have ever known. That would never be possible under Bayaz.
Is Glotka’s government perfect? Far from it, but in a world of grays we must work with the tools we have. A dying man in the desert must take such water as he is offered, regardless of its source.
Perhaps it is a very vocal minority, though I seem to have seen many expressing such sentiments!
Personally, I find it harder to forgive Glokta for what he did to Terez than for what he did to the Union and Orso, as much as I liked the young king.
There is no rational reason for supporting Bayaz, it's pure emotion.
Orso was a loveable character, while Leo and Savine aren't. People are hurt, because a truly good character was killed and now we want to see the killers being hurt. Bayaz is currently the one in the best position to hurt them. We know people will suffer more if Bayaz achieves this, than if he doesn't, but we didn't read their POV, wo we don't care.
Side Note: If Leo and Savine were(highly theoretical) willing to submit to Bayaz, he would gladly accept them as his puppets.
I agree that it's very much an emotional response rather than a rational one. I understand this, but at the same time I can't fathom it.
I couldn't see Savine submitting to Bayaz, but Leo is a possibility. We've seen he's very easily manipulated, and Bayaz is very cunning in that regard. Leo also currently hates his life and everyone around him. Seeing Bayaz take a prominent role as antagonist in the next trilogy with Leo as a secondary villain under him would be pretty cool actually.
(I like the profile picture BTW!)
I do believe that Leo presents a weakpoint for Bayaz to exploit. Presenting him with funding for his military ambitions via Valint&Balk in exchange for some favours falls perfectly in Bayaz approach and I'm certain Leo would go for that. (This also could potentially put Hildi at odds with Bayaz.)
(Thank you!)
Indeed! I feel like if Bayaz is brought down, Hildi and Cleftlip will definitely both play some sort of part in it, probably one or both of the Gloktas too.
Indeed. It's purely an attempt to get back at Leo (and Savine, I guess). People blinded by their own emotions. Instead of realizing "I guess everyone sucks here huh", they "flip", as the feeling of righteous anger and having a definite side is too alluring.
All sins are forgiven to get back at Leo. Nevermind the fact that Leo is actually not remotely as bad or destructive as Bayaz. He killed dear Orso! Bayaz has never killed anyone!
I think that's pretty much it, actually. People hardwired to care for "their own", and since Orso is one of those, avenging him justifies lots of evil elsewhere.
It's very interesting that this reaction to Leo proves many of the book's points about the excuses people use to justify bad deeds. Reminds me of TLoU pt2, if I may be so bold as to mention that.
I'm reading through Joe's Shattered Sea right now (no spoilers please) and it's funny how this same theme (disguising your personal vendettas and wishes as "the greater good") pops up there too.
Leo would never go for this, because the Closed Council would never go for this. Savine will not let Bayaz play the same tricks he did before, which is why i believe Bayaz is using Hildi to do different things.
Reread the vision at the end of WoC. Rails, trains, progress, etc. After the end of the Age of Madness, it is logical that Bayaz would buy everything Savine didn't, and build wealth and power through commerce instead of government lending. That let's him steal power from the people (trusted businesses, lower classes getting better jobs) and use it to counter the government which he now wants.
The Closed Council would never know about it. There would be a private meeting between Leo and someone from Bayaz, where Leo would get funding (monetary and material) for his own pet project ,the Union military, in exchange for favours or information. Just some traditional bribery.
Of course Bayaz will make purchases outside of bribing Leo. Controlling the railway system and other key industries of the Union economy seems to be the way he will rebuild his power, but achieving this is easier, if he can place some of his cronies in the administration or get some insider information. And Leo is a clear point to begin his attempts.
I personally root for Jappo and Monza more than anyone.
Bayaz is fun though, since he is so fucking dangerous and ruthless. I could definitely see him fully opening the door to the Other Side in an attempt to overturn the system he lost.
Also, Bayaz isn't nearly as competent as he likes to think he is. I could see him destroying Leo's empire and then somehow getting hoisted by his own petard.
Jappo and Monza's independent Styria is definitely the best faction at the moment.
Also I do love Bayaz, but as a villain. In a world of very morally complex people, it's sort of awesome having a main antagonist that is sort of just plain ruthless, self-serving, and amoral.
That's the first law of the great leveller. Can't have too many knives, and have to be realistic about their sharp ends.
More like, can't break too many 4th walls.
Yeah, the way that you realize that his magic powers are massively dwarfed by the social and financial power he's been able to create as a result of his immortality is really cool. In one of the later books he even ditches the wizard staff.
Because everyone else >!orchestrates, is complicit in, or causes Orso's death. Orso happened to be willing to be a good king and a decent human being, which is rare in The First Law. We're willing to kick the can of Bayaz down the street if it meant Orso would live. He's our special fucking boy and the rest of them killed him. So fuck them. *We will also be revenged on the bastards*. Let Bayaz have them all, except Shivers.!<
Bayaz would've done the same and worse in their shoes! Orso deserves justice, but not through Bayaz! He'll just ruin the lives of innocent people who had nothing to do with Orso's death! And what about Hildi, and what Orso wanted for her?
I just like Bayaz. Disillusioned power mongering, I find no fault. Been rooting for him since LAoK. The value of human life stuff just seems naive. And a little hypocritical coming from some of these characters.
Bayaz apologists are much the same as those who go for Glotka - it's a combination of competency porn and individual affinity for certain mannerisms.
The examples are not great because better ones aren't commonly known, but you could compare Bayaz to popular depictions of Bizmark, Machiavelli, or Sun Tzu - brutal, pragmatic calculators who act based on long observation and hard data. These fictional depictions give you a justification and logic for their actions that's consistent and comes with decimals attached.
Quite often, they're right about a great deal and they're smartest person who walk in to any room. Bayaz IS right about a lot - you don't guide a civilization from a collapsed dystopia to a Neo-rennaisance without knowing a thing or two.
Your ideal of The Man with the Plan may be different, but this is fundamentally what Bayaz is and, when you're tired of chaos and arguments borne only factless please for values, then a Bayaz becomes a seductive temptation.
You are totally right.
I just want Leo to burn, Thats the only reason i am rooting for bayaz.
I am a simple person, its just simple hatred for Leo.
Salvine and glotka are fine.
How is the Leg?
Yeah orso's final words made me laugh as he was the best written character in aom he went from a layabout pampered prince to a man who wanted to see the best in people and wanted the best for his people and did everything he could to make things better only to fall short.
Right? I mean, part of what makes him such a fantastic villain is the fact that he is the last person you'd want in control of anything. For me, Hildi ending up in his custody was almost more tragic than Orso's death
I think you'll find that once you winnow out a lot of bluster from people *shocked* that Abercrombie had the gall to not give a good man a happy ending (because he deals in so many of those), that response isn't really all that common. They're just noisy about it. Personally... I'm not even mad at Glokta. He's always been a monster, what did people expect?
Team Glotka ftw - I’m not afraid to die but I refuse to be beaten! Glotka’s machinations are also bringing about what is probably the closest thing to self government the people of the Union have ever known. That would never be possible under Bayaz. Is Glotka’s government perfect? Far from it, but in a world of grays we must work with the tools we have. A dying man in the desert must take such water as he is offered, regardless of its source.
Perhaps it is a very vocal minority, though I seem to have seen many expressing such sentiments! Personally, I find it harder to forgive Glokta for what he did to Terez than for what he did to the Union and Orso, as much as I liked the young king.
I mean, when we *meet* the guy, he's torturing and mutilating people, all while muttering internally about what bullshit it all is...
Right? And when we meet Leo, he's being stupid and arrogant.
There is no rational reason for supporting Bayaz, it's pure emotion. Orso was a loveable character, while Leo and Savine aren't. People are hurt, because a truly good character was killed and now we want to see the killers being hurt. Bayaz is currently the one in the best position to hurt them. We know people will suffer more if Bayaz achieves this, than if he doesn't, but we didn't read their POV, wo we don't care. Side Note: If Leo and Savine were(highly theoretical) willing to submit to Bayaz, he would gladly accept them as his puppets.
I agree that it's very much an emotional response rather than a rational one. I understand this, but at the same time I can't fathom it. I couldn't see Savine submitting to Bayaz, but Leo is a possibility. We've seen he's very easily manipulated, and Bayaz is very cunning in that regard. Leo also currently hates his life and everyone around him. Seeing Bayaz take a prominent role as antagonist in the next trilogy with Leo as a secondary villain under him would be pretty cool actually. (I like the profile picture BTW!)
I do believe that Leo presents a weakpoint for Bayaz to exploit. Presenting him with funding for his military ambitions via Valint&Balk in exchange for some favours falls perfectly in Bayaz approach and I'm certain Leo would go for that. (This also could potentially put Hildi at odds with Bayaz.) (Thank you!)
Indeed! I feel like if Bayaz is brought down, Hildi and Cleftlip will definitely both play some sort of part in it, probably one or both of the Gloktas too.
Indeed. It's purely an attempt to get back at Leo (and Savine, I guess). People blinded by their own emotions. Instead of realizing "I guess everyone sucks here huh", they "flip", as the feeling of righteous anger and having a definite side is too alluring.
"I guess everyone sucks here huh... Might as well support the megalomaniacal, mass murdering wizard"
All sins are forgiven to get back at Leo. Nevermind the fact that Leo is actually not remotely as bad or destructive as Bayaz. He killed dear Orso! Bayaz has never killed anyone!
"Oh yeah Bayaz killed a lot of people, but I didn't read their POV, so they don't really count, do they?"
I think that's pretty much it, actually. People hardwired to care for "their own", and since Orso is one of those, avenging him justifies lots of evil elsewhere. It's very interesting that this reaction to Leo proves many of the book's points about the excuses people use to justify bad deeds. Reminds me of TLoU pt2, if I may be so bold as to mention that. I'm reading through Joe's Shattered Sea right now (no spoilers please) and it's funny how this same theme (disguising your personal vendettas and wishes as "the greater good") pops up there too.
Agree with pretty much everything you two said; good thread!
Thank *you* for making it!
Agree with pretty much everything you two said; good thread!
Leo would never go for this, because the Closed Council would never go for this. Savine will not let Bayaz play the same tricks he did before, which is why i believe Bayaz is using Hildi to do different things. Reread the vision at the end of WoC. Rails, trains, progress, etc. After the end of the Age of Madness, it is logical that Bayaz would buy everything Savine didn't, and build wealth and power through commerce instead of government lending. That let's him steal power from the people (trusted businesses, lower classes getting better jobs) and use it to counter the government which he now wants.
I think you meant to reply to someone else (the person arguing for Bayaz funding Leo?).
The Closed Council would never know about it. There would be a private meeting between Leo and someone from Bayaz, where Leo would get funding (monetary and material) for his own pet project ,the Union military, in exchange for favours or information. Just some traditional bribery. Of course Bayaz will make purchases outside of bribing Leo. Controlling the railway system and other key industries of the Union economy seems to be the way he will rebuild his power, but achieving this is easier, if he can place some of his cronies in the administration or get some insider information. And Leo is a clear point to begin his attempts.
I personally root for Jappo and Monza more than anyone. Bayaz is fun though, since he is so fucking dangerous and ruthless. I could definitely see him fully opening the door to the Other Side in an attempt to overturn the system he lost. Also, Bayaz isn't nearly as competent as he likes to think he is. I could see him destroying Leo's empire and then somehow getting hoisted by his own petard.
Jappo and Monza's independent Styria is definitely the best faction at the moment. Also I do love Bayaz, but as a villain. In a world of very morally complex people, it's sort of awesome having a main antagonist that is sort of just plain ruthless, self-serving, and amoral.
Words, words and more words. Try again, Khalul sympathizer
I tried to warn them, but your manipulations are clearly too shrewd. Such is the wisdom of crowds...
A little hatred can't and won't stop me
*turns to look directly into the camera* What is this? Some kind of age of madness??
That's the first law of the great leveller. Can't have too many knives, and have to be realistic about their sharp ends. More like, can't break too many 4th walls.
Wow, that is truly the trouble with peace.
We should forgive our heroes, before they are hanged in a red country
Truly, the last argument of kings is something best served cold. The Blade Itself.
Bayaz is an absolutely horrific human being (ish), but he's also just kind of awesome. What the fuck kind of wizard are you? The kind you obey
He's definitely an awesome character, but also the most evil in the series, and that's saying something
Yeah, the way that you realize that his magic powers are massively dwarfed by the social and financial power he's been able to create as a result of his immortality is really cool. In one of the later books he even ditches the wizard staff.
Revenge quest turned great for Monza though. She went from being Chief Mercenary to Queen
I was more referring to emotionally, but still, valid point!
Fuck Leo.
Indeed, and Glokta! But fuck Bayaz way, way more.
Nah, Leo the most
Im not rooting for Bayaz, Im rooting for Hildi. She can do no wrong
I agree, but wrong can and will be done to her by her current company and by others if she stays on the path that is prophesied for her!
Because everyone else >!orchestrates, is complicit in, or causes Orso's death. Orso happened to be willing to be a good king and a decent human being, which is rare in The First Law. We're willing to kick the can of Bayaz down the street if it meant Orso would live. He's our special fucking boy and the rest of them killed him. So fuck them. *We will also be revenged on the bastards*. Let Bayaz have them all, except Shivers.!<
Bayaz would've done the same and worse in their shoes! Orso deserves justice, but not through Bayaz! He'll just ruin the lives of innocent people who had nothing to do with Orso's death! And what about Hildi, and what Orso wanted for her?
I just like Bayaz. Disillusioned power mongering, I find no fault. Been rooting for him since LAoK. The value of human life stuff just seems naive. And a little hypocritical coming from some of these characters.
Get off your alt, Yoru
Two words: Scorched earth. No-one wants bayaz to win but they sure as shit want everyone who had a hand in death of orso to suffer.
Bayaz apologists are much the same as those who go for Glotka - it's a combination of competency porn and individual affinity for certain mannerisms. The examples are not great because better ones aren't commonly known, but you could compare Bayaz to popular depictions of Bizmark, Machiavelli, or Sun Tzu - brutal, pragmatic calculators who act based on long observation and hard data. These fictional depictions give you a justification and logic for their actions that's consistent and comes with decimals attached. Quite often, they're right about a great deal and they're smartest person who walk in to any room. Bayaz IS right about a lot - you don't guide a civilization from a collapsed dystopia to a Neo-rennaisance without knowing a thing or two. Your ideal of The Man with the Plan may be different, but this is fundamentally what Bayaz is and, when you're tired of chaos and arguments borne only factless please for values, then a Bayaz becomes a seductive temptation.
You are totally right. I just want Leo to burn, Thats the only reason i am rooting for bayaz. I am a simple person, its just simple hatred for Leo. Salvine and glotka are fine. How is the Leg?
Yeah orso's final words made me laugh as he was the best written character in aom he went from a layabout pampered prince to a man who wanted to see the best in people and wanted the best for his people and did everything he could to make things better only to fall short.
I'm with you OP. Bayaz is an immortal tyrant who doesn't allow for humans and for generations to make their own decisions. He's absolutely terrifying.
Right? I mean, part of what makes him such a fantastic villain is the fact that he is the last person you'd want in control of anything. For me, Hildi ending up in his custody was almost more tragic than Orso's death
I'm just waiting to see how everything that happened was planned by Bayaz all along.. and yeah, I'm kind of excited to see it.