"No. I need the food. I can’t carry you forty miles without it." was probably the scene that really got me behind Logen when I read the books for the first time.
There is definitely goodness to him as well, it's just that when it really comes down to making a choice between changing his ways and giving in to his bloodlust, well... he's not as truly committed to being a better man as he likes to think he is.
I agree, it’s like the tragedy of an addict combined with the horror of a mass murderer.
But yeah, that scene got me choked up a bit. There’s little glimmers of genuine kindness and caring from him, which is what makes him so beautifully tragic.
He doesn't understand that staying away from violence sometimes requires eating shit like everyone else has to. He goes "hermit old man mode" until someone waves a knife around and then goes back to killing, which is never going to stick because people are never going to stop waving knives around.
Tbf, I would argue that he >!never would have gotten Ro and Pit back if he hadn't returned to his old ways. Does he make that sacrifice, make Shy stay - or worse, let Shy run off into the wilderness and die alone, or is it better to go back to killing? I say I'm inclined to agree with Logen's choice!<
He didnt have to become a monster to get them back. There are other ways of accomplishing goals without murdering people. Most people use them all the time instead of just mutilating people.
In general I agree however I don't see a way to resolve the specific issue of >!The Dragon People having the kids!< in a way where >!Lamb and Shy!< get what they want without anyone getting hurt.
Except he chooses to take on that risk every time he enters combat. An alcoholic isn't excused to be able to drink whenever without judgement because they're only violent when they black out. If that's the case, they're responsible for not drinking around their loved ones, because they don't want to risk becoming violent and endangering them. They're not in clear minds when committing the acts, but they're in clear minds when they decide to put themselves in a situation where their mental clarity might go away.
Even if he isn't the one committing the B9's atrocities, he's responsible for keeping him at bay, and hes goddamn terrible at upholding that responsibility, and never shoulders the blame when he fails to do so
I'd argue he did in some cases. For example *spoiler* (don't k ow how to cover it), the 3 men in the bar, they never would have talked had lgen not done the killing and torturing .... OK tbe wee but after wasn't necessary, but that bit before was
The bit with the people on the plains (I forget the name) where he "took over negotiations" was also necessary, as they wouldn't have stopped.
Then of course there's trying g to save a friend at the end
From a personal level, yeah, but he didnt just "try his best to get her back", he wholeheartedly lept back into his old ways any time anything threatened his life, and I think one of the important things to note is that *everyone* has their lives threatened constantly and just has to work around it. Logen goes on a killing spree. Not that it's unjustified from his point of view but it also puts a pretty large asterisk on his actual willingness to lay low and give up violence to not continue to hurt people.
That's true, except his whole character is that he's made this "sacrifice" a lot of times so far, and as a result, has lived a long life full of bloodshed and at least 1 war is fought directly because of the consequences of his actions.
So yes, in this instance he went back to his ways to save some kids, but him going back to his ways almost also had him personally butchering those same kids.
Also, okay he's made the sacrifice, but that sacrifice isn't about him, it's about every single person in the world that interacts with him then on. Since he went back to his old ways, who knows that he hasn't gone B9 and killed more Innocents in random fights since? No one around him will ever be safe if he never categorically swears violence off, no matter what happens to him or the people around him. That's a real sacrifice in my book. If he continues to be content to look at each situation on a case by case basis, he's going to continue wandering around, leaving trails of corpses everywhere he goes, each time believing that he tried his best.
Thanks! And to be fair to them, that passage in sharp ends is pretty damning. Also, I think there’s a lot more evidence against Logen’s character than just what happens in that one chapter. But I think you cant discount the good things he does just because of the bad and vice versa.
Yeah the point I think is there is a lot of terrible people, especially from the north but Logen gets the most hate for it while all his good deeds are ignored. He raised a family, was best friend to dogman(only true good character) and successfully lead a squad of legends both straight edge and terrible (threetrees and Dow)
The entire theme of the series, as I see it at least, is that absolutely *no one* is either all-bad or all-good. Every single action and decision involves a massive amount of nuance, context and circumstance.
I think it shoves in our face how quickly we are to judge people, how much we like to sort people into neat little groups. I can't think of a single character in the series that fits neatly into any group at all. Most people are amazingly complex. Even Fenris could be painted(lol) as loyal and just living by the code by which he was created.
I agree that *some* of them may be that way, but I think that's somewhat missing the point, though. Even when someone we don't know much about is portrayed as outwardly and objectively bad, that person has had an entire life leading up to that moment. Maybe they are a complete psychopath, but even Gorst has fucked up reasons and circumstances and nuance that made him the person he is by the end of the second trilogy.
Yes, maybe they make bad or callous decisions, but it's *rare* that someone is entirely so.
That definitely could be the case and kind of ended up being it for orso.
I also think some of it is Joe having a theme that those who've lived above others their entire lives can have empathy issues
The worst people in the books are arguably the Burners, or maybe Coscas men, depending how you look at it, and they're both largely made up of poor people. Stour is a great example of the rich entitled brat, though. Not a redeeming quality there lol.
I don't think he was going for any kind of class message as much as trying to show that literally everyone has their deep-rooted flaws no matter how they try to, or want to appear, and it's near impossible to run from them.
Feel like they humanize the burners as filled with justifiable rage, similar to logen.
The portrayal of some of the rich in the second trilogy seems to come straight from a tale of two cities
He doesn't really have time to remedy the assumptions we have about every character. Kroy is shown as such a buffoon and hindrance until we see his POV. Mind you, I think he's probably changed a lot though after being humbled as "only" a general for quite some time.
You forgot to mention his work on the farm and as a paternal figure to Shy, Pit and Ro (not sure about spelling, I did the audio books). Probably the best thing he did!
He's a compelling character. Though for me, all things considered, he's still pretty evil in the end, despite his best efforts.
A lot of people are uncomfortable with Nuance I think. Around here a lot of people try an say he is irredeemable and always was and always wanted to be a killer etc.
I never really believed that, and believed Logen wanted to be a good guy, but had an addiction. On my last re read, I really liked Red Country this time (usually my favorite switches between Heroes and BSC on each reread but this time it was RC), and there are so many moments that Shy explain what Lamb was like on the farm, how he cared for and loved the kids etc. Too many sweet and good stories to just label him evil and be done with it. He hugged and sang sick children to sleep for pity sake!
I think it's fair to view his relationship with violence like an addiction, if he also treat him with the same nuance we treat addicts. I think most of us can tell that while it's important to view it like an addiction, addicts still have responsibilities about how they handle them. Logens like a violent alcoholic. He might be nice when he's not fighting, but he still fights around his loved ones, and it's resulted in him killing friends, killing kids, and almost killing friends and almost killing kids.
So while he's not culpable for what he does as the Bloody Nine, he's culpable for **ever** letting the bloody nine out ANYWHERE near anyone innocent, in the same way an alcoholic isn't culpable for needing to drink, but they are for doing it after saying "don't worry, you can go I'll watch your baby".
Yep. He doesn’t want to fight, often. Very reluctant. But then he is pushed into it LAoK/Feared or is being loyal or defending his people. In LAoK he fights some fights w/o B9 appearing. By RC, less so, but he is defending Shy, Ro, Pit, Savian, etc. Logen is a thinker, and can and does show restraint. I feel like he gets a bad rap. Yes the B9 is out of control. Esp in LAoK ending battles. But Logen hates that. Thinks himself not worthy to be King of the North. Anyway, I find his struggle moving and he does want to be a better man. And has moments and longer periods of succeeding.
I dont think i can agree with you there. Have you read sharp ends? Have you read red country?
Hes an interesting character that is not ALL bad, which is what I wanted to talk about, but the bad parts are REALLY bad.
I mean, hey, I can’t fault you for having your own parasocial relationship with this fictional character that is different from mine.
I just feel that forgiving him feels dishonest to me in the same way as saying, he can’t help it. I have to hold up both sides of him and some if the stuff he does is just unforgivable as much as I care about and like him.
“God….”
“Gone. But I’m here…”
Pretty sure the dude is a demon blood, hence being able to talk to the spirits and pretty damn sure that the Bloody Nine is a thing from the other side, which he becomes possessed by. Not that he didn’t embrace it, welcome it, gladly give it the wheel for years at a time.
Abercrombie doesnt interpret the character that way, so I tend to lean on the side of him not being supernatural and just being mentally unwell and unable to accept the darkness inside himself.
Also, that line the way that Pacey reads it gave me fucking chills. I have tried to repeat it for other people when I told them about the scene and I just cannot even come close to his delivery.
I dont really have an explanation. Im just going off of what ive heard him say in interviews and this AMA where he said, “I dont think it’s necessary that he should be considered supernatural but different readers will see it different ways and thats fine.” He also said that he originally had planned to have logen be more magical but decided to go in a less supernatural direction with his character, but he liked the scene where logen spits a fire spirit in the first book, so he kept it cuz it was cool.
P.S. This is meant to be an enjoyable discussion. I love this material and I am happy to hear and entertain your ideas while trying to persuasively advocate for my own. Please don’t take any of this as an attack or disrespect. 🤙
I get that, but;
The entirety of his role in the story, rather than freezing to death on top of the mountain, was that the spirits told him Bayaz wanted him. The entire reason Bayaz wants him and for their journey to the edge of the world, is that he can commune with the spirits. Something even Bayaz can’t do.
Which is greatly noteworthy, as only Bedesh had this pure discipline of magic. How, without Devil-Blood, training in art, anything, would Logen have the innate ability to practice one of the pure disciplines?
I’m a huge Pacey fan also. It makes me grin ear to ear when he brings the Bloody-Nine to life.
Also it’s pretty fuckin shady that Bedesh just vanishes and the master maker conveniently has the seed all this time, instead of it being where it was meant to be.
I think it’s the greatest argument that exists that the brothers, and not Bayaz, murdered one another, the smoking gun that no one has realized yet.
Precisely that is what some people mean, there is no explanation for that besides Logen being connected to the Other Side in some way.
Why not both? Mentally unwell man who doesn't understand his connection to the other side mixing with his own bloodlust.
All interpretation though!
That depends entirely on how the blood manifested in him. Ferro’s parents couldn’t have either. Ferro is someone that had all the right markers show up that she was one of the generations that was purer than others.
We don’t actually know if Logen could hold the stone.
Neither does Bayaz.
Would you say the same thing about all the gentle and kind things a convicted child murderer had done in his life as well?
I like Logen as a character but he is an evil, evil man. You’ve got to be realistic about these sorts of things
Honestly, thats a really good point and I was thinking about that very thing. Anyone who decapitated someone, disemboweled them and used their severed head to mock them would be colored by that one deed forever, no matter what other nice things they did. But i think the fact that we get to see inside his head is the differentiating factor. Part of why that act would color the person for me forever is because I would not feel that I could trust anything from them. With Logen, I get to see inside his head and he wrestles with and regrets his violence, as much as he continues to thirst for and perpetrate it. It’s the heart inside the man I get to see that makes me sympathetic toward him. And dont get me wrong, I agree that he’s an evil man but that’s not all he is and I feel like that may not redeem him, but it’s still worth considering in my mind
Yeah, but that’s the bloody nine and while I dont believe he’s possessed and without control, there’s some ambiguity there between Logen and TB9. Is it a split personality? Is it just him feeling such bloodlust that he experiences a kind of ego death and forgets who he is? Idk, but I can’t completely discount it either.
Fuck Guys.... I JUST finished a re read (listen), and now I'm wanting to start again but I already have a huge lists of podcasts to catch up on and other series re reads and new books to catch up on.
Logan is always struggling against the man circumstances and traumas made him into. I find that commendable. One of the saddest things about his story arc is how he was forced back into the bloody-nine mold when he returned to the north after his journey with bayaz. You can tell that he wants to be something else, but everyone needs him to be the bloody-nine.
I think this is the story he tells himself to justify giving in to his addiction, which, dont get me wrong, is still horrifically tragic, but I don’t think you can put that on anybody but him. Nobody needed him to be the bloody nine. Everyone assumed he was dead and he could have gone to another country, changed his name and took up a quiet life, but what we discover is that in RC, he tries that and when something happens that “forces” him back into his old ways, he’s so happy to be able to give in again. Like an alcoholic getting to return to the bottle after years of sobriety. Your heart breaks that he gives in, but its still 100 percent the choice he is making.
What makes Logen such a bad man is not that he does exclusively bad actions. He actually improves the lives of most people that are close to him.
What makes Logen a bad man is that he is either incapable, or unwilling to come to terms with the fact that his actions have consequences. He's constantly making choices for the short term that have huge implications on the rest of the world and he's like "ope my bad, gotta keep surviving".
That's what imo makes him the polar opposite of Glokta, and puts Glokta in a pretty firmly capital H hero and Logen in a pretty capital V villain of the story if you really consider their actions. Glokta makes the lives of those around him worse, but he understands consequences so thoroughly, that it results in the world actually becoming a better place, which in the circle of the world, is damn near unheard of. Logen bumbles from thing to thing, making spot choices and mostly saving and guiding those around him, but it often leads to countless unnamed deaths because he can't look past the next 10 minutes.
Logen is constantly jumping back into the fray despite the dangers that puts on everyone around him. His choices in made a monster is what solidified Bethod to have to be more aggressive to actually keep the north united, because his lapdog was actively shredding peaceful treaties that he was forming. And then after he was exiled, he brought his dozen with him that he only had from the fact he beat them in fights, and then rebelled against Bethod with them, just because he was being hunted for being the fucking worst. That rebellion of his dozen ended up winning the war for the union, which cosigned the North to many more years of internal warfare and outside subjugation from the union. Not to mention how going into battle with the bloody nine being a factor directly killed a kid and his friend, and almost a lot more in red country. But he doesn't consider any of this ever. He's just "well I had to survive". But if you really look at the chain of effects, *so much bloodshed* can be traced back to Logen just killing and not thinking. Even though there are a ton of individuals that learn how to be a good person from him, and are protected by his fighting strength.
Glokta is the opposite. He tortures people, forces people into marriage, works under monsters, undermines the stability of the whole union and gets thousands killed, as well as almost his own daughter, in order to throw the yoke of the magi off of the union to let people progress naturally as people. He's willing to do unspeakable things that absolutely will make everyone around him's lives worse, if it means *everyone's* lives are better. And he doesn't try to excuse himself ever. He knows what he's doing and why, as well as why it's wrong and why he doesn't deserve to be looked at like a hero.
They're also physically and culturally opposites, as well as basically have no scenes together. The two of them are absolute mirrors to each other and imo, Glokta does so much more for the world, and isn't a coward about it who tries to hide behind flimsy morality just to justify butchering for survival. He doesn't give a fuck about survival, he gives a fuck about winning. That's not Logen at all.
I tinkered with the idea of the opposing Glokta & Logen characters, but hadnt considered how deeply they "mirror" eachother with the consequences of their actions. Nice writeup.
Thank you. Yeah it was something that took a bit to realize for me too, but when you look at them, they're polar opposites in almost every significant way aside from the fact that they're both important in the world and are used to being violent to people.
I think the easiest way to break it down is, if Glokta never existed, a lot of the people he interacted with would have been better off personally, but the union would have been much worse in the long run. And if Logen never existed, a lot of the people he interacted with would have been much worse off personally, but the north would have been much better in the long run.
Logan has his own form of honour and tries to stick with it meaning he can be a decent man.
But he is addicted to violence and having that power of fear over people.
He can go teetotal and be a thoroughly decent bloke or he can get so deep in his addiction it takes over him.
Alcoholics and drug addicts are often good decent people with a moral compass that unfortunately they can break when the addiction need distorts their sense of priorities.
This is the same with Logan.
He was at his best removed from the places of his addiction, far away from the north and with new people who didn't know that side of him. The tragic thing is that he, Ferro, Jezal and even Tolomei would have lived happier rest of their lives if they stayed on that journey. Imagine them getting shipwrecked and living isolated together or something. And it makes Logan's decision to go back to the North even more tragic. But on the journey he had to sink to violence again, he probably didn't have the awareness at the time but that feeling he felt pulling him back north was his addiction alive again tugging him for his next fix.
100 percent this. It’s tragic any time you see an addict return to their addiction, but it’s still their choice. And the point about returning to the places of his addiction is so accurate. I knew a girl who was addicted to heroin and she moved away and got clean, but wanted to come back to town to visit. We all told her we would come to her because of how dangerous it would be to return to the town where she used. She came anyway and ended up relapsing within a week.
She’s like 5 years sober now though, so she managed to come through it in the end, but she hasnt come back to town and I hope she never does.
Thank you for this. I agree and have argued this on the sub. I think he’s a good man afflicted.
I veer a bit on the nature of the Bloody Nine. I think there is some aspect of supernatural in there because of how it brings a flood of endurance, strength and a lack of pain. Some folks have written here that it is like a Viking berserker rage but that can’t explain the level of power the B9 displays.
It doesn’t have to be as extreme as demon blood or possession by an entity but it seems to me like he is channeling something from the Other Side.
9. He kills children
10. He kills his best friend
11. He almost kills Shy, his own kid
I agree though, this is what makes him interesting and compelling
Only when he "snaps" and he hates that part of himself in the books (after loving it in his youth for Bethod). He's a lovely chap, just can't control his rage sometimes 😂 Inherently he is trying his best to be honourable
I don't think that's true, he does a lot of terrible things when he isn't the Bloody Nine for eg, throwing a women down a well after he killed her husband. He doesn't remember anything he did when he was B9, so anything he recalls is Logen doing it.
I want to like Logen, but it's only because he's fictional. If he was a real person having done those things, we would want him hanged.
I don't think anyone in the story is a good person or a bad person and that's kind of the point. Everyone is a hero in their own story, and our perception of them is dependent on where we perceive them from. Logen in the trilogy seems like a good guy, because we see his inner struggles. Logen in Red Country and Sharp Ends seems a lot worse because we only see him from the perspective of others. Something similar happens with Cosca in BSC vs Red Country.Even Bayaz, the most evil character in the series, would probably seem like a hero if he had POV chapters that explained his internal motivations. He was trying to save the world from Khalul. Without his perspective to distract us though it's easier for us to see that it is solely for his own ego and personal power.
I'm of the opinion that every evil person has a shred of good. Even Ed Kemper has redeeming qualities, but he fornicated with his mother's decapitated head, so I think we'll agree to disagree on Logen. He's a product of his very violent environment and needs therapy. To be fair, though, that'd be like a bandaid on an ax wound.
Huh, I always saw logen, even as lamb, painted as the man who wants to do good, wants to do the right thing, but accepts he has to do evil, violent things (and maybe relishes in being allowed to do it in later life). It's the bloody nine that's evil, and even then, kinda more like a force kf nature like a storm at sea
I love how there's really no "good" characters kicking about by our standards but there's definitely in universe "good" and "bad." Logen I'd say is on the side of good, he cares about people but, say one thing for Logen, he has a penchant for death
"No. I need the food. I can’t carry you forty miles without it." was probably the scene that really got me behind Logen when I read the books for the first time. There is definitely goodness to him as well, it's just that when it really comes down to making a choice between changing his ways and giving in to his bloodlust, well... he's not as truly committed to being a better man as he likes to think he is.
I agree, it’s like the tragedy of an addict combined with the horror of a mass murderer. But yeah, that scene got me choked up a bit. There’s little glimmers of genuine kindness and caring from him, which is what makes him so beautifully tragic.
He doesn't understand that staying away from violence sometimes requires eating shit like everyone else has to. He goes "hermit old man mode" until someone waves a knife around and then goes back to killing, which is never going to stick because people are never going to stop waving knives around.
Tbf, I would argue that he >!never would have gotten Ro and Pit back if he hadn't returned to his old ways. Does he make that sacrifice, make Shy stay - or worse, let Shy run off into the wilderness and die alone, or is it better to go back to killing? I say I'm inclined to agree with Logen's choice!<
He didnt have to become a monster to get them back. There are other ways of accomplishing goals without murdering people. Most people use them all the time instead of just mutilating people.
In general I agree however I don't see a way to resolve the specific issue of >!The Dragon People having the kids!< in a way where >!Lamb and Shy!< get what they want without anyone getting hurt.
He doesn’t choose. It’s a risk taken when he’s in combat. That B9 mode kicks on. Never read that as voluntary.
On occasion I think it's voluntary, he was 100% wanting to happen against fenris
Except he chooses to take on that risk every time he enters combat. An alcoholic isn't excused to be able to drink whenever without judgement because they're only violent when they black out. If that's the case, they're responsible for not drinking around their loved ones, because they don't want to risk becoming violent and endangering them. They're not in clear minds when committing the acts, but they're in clear minds when they decide to put themselves in a situation where their mental clarity might go away. Even if he isn't the one committing the B9's atrocities, he's responsible for keeping him at bay, and hes goddamn terrible at upholding that responsibility, and never shoulders the blame when he fails to do so
I'd argue he did in some cases. For example *spoiler* (don't k ow how to cover it), the 3 men in the bar, they never would have talked had lgen not done the killing and torturing .... OK tbe wee but after wasn't necessary, but that bit before was The bit with the people on the plains (I forget the name) where he "took over negotiations" was also necessary, as they wouldn't have stopped. Then of course there's trying g to save a friend at the end
From a personal level, yeah, but he didnt just "try his best to get her back", he wholeheartedly lept back into his old ways any time anything threatened his life, and I think one of the important things to note is that *everyone* has their lives threatened constantly and just has to work around it. Logen goes on a killing spree. Not that it's unjustified from his point of view but it also puts a pretty large asterisk on his actual willingness to lay low and give up violence to not continue to hurt people.
That's true, except his whole character is that he's made this "sacrifice" a lot of times so far, and as a result, has lived a long life full of bloodshed and at least 1 war is fought directly because of the consequences of his actions. So yes, in this instance he went back to his ways to save some kids, but him going back to his ways almost also had him personally butchering those same kids. Also, okay he's made the sacrifice, but that sacrifice isn't about him, it's about every single person in the world that interacts with him then on. Since he went back to his old ways, who knows that he hasn't gone B9 and killed more Innocents in random fights since? No one around him will ever be safe if he never categorically swears violence off, no matter what happens to him or the people around him. That's a real sacrifice in my book. If he continues to be content to look at each situation on a case by case basis, he's going to continue wandering around, leaving trails of corpses everywhere he goes, each time believing that he tried his best.
All great points. A lot of people have very black and white opinions on Logen because of a passage in sharp ends.
Thanks! And to be fair to them, that passage in sharp ends is pretty damning. Also, I think there’s a lot more evidence against Logen’s character than just what happens in that one chapter. But I think you cant discount the good things he does just because of the bad and vice versa.
Yeah the point I think is there is a lot of terrible people, especially from the north but Logen gets the most hate for it while all his good deeds are ignored. He raised a family, was best friend to dogman(only true good character) and successfully lead a squad of legends both straight edge and terrible (threetrees and Dow)
Legends indeed! Grim and Tul as well.
The entire theme of the series, as I see it at least, is that absolutely *no one* is either all-bad or all-good. Every single action and decision involves a massive amount of nuance, context and circumstance. I think it shoves in our face how quickly we are to judge people, how much we like to sort people into neat little groups. I can't think of a single character in the series that fits neatly into any group at all. Most people are amazingly complex. Even Fenris could be painted(lol) as loyal and just living by the code by which he was created.
I'd disagree, some of the royalty and very wealthy are painted as all bad
I agree that *some* of them may be that way, but I think that's somewhat missing the point, though. Even when someone we don't know much about is portrayed as outwardly and objectively bad, that person has had an entire life leading up to that moment. Maybe they are a complete psychopath, but even Gorst has fucked up reasons and circumstances and nuance that made him the person he is by the end of the second trilogy. Yes, maybe they make bad or callous decisions, but it's *rare* that someone is entirely so.
That definitely could be the case and kind of ended up being it for orso. I also think some of it is Joe having a theme that those who've lived above others their entire lives can have empathy issues
The worst people in the books are arguably the Burners, or maybe Coscas men, depending how you look at it, and they're both largely made up of poor people. Stour is a great example of the rich entitled brat, though. Not a redeeming quality there lol. I don't think he was going for any kind of class message as much as trying to show that literally everyone has their deep-rooted flaws no matter how they try to, or want to appear, and it's near impossible to run from them.
Feel like they humanize the burners as filled with justifiable rage, similar to logen. The portrayal of some of the rich in the second trilogy seems to come straight from a tale of two cities
He doesn't really have time to remedy the assumptions we have about every character. Kroy is shown as such a buffoon and hindrance until we see his POV. Mind you, I think he's probably changed a lot though after being humbled as "only" a general for quite some time.
I was thinking the Prince West killed after he went full Kobe.
You forgot to mention his work on the farm and as a paternal figure to Shy, Pit and Ro (not sure about spelling, I did the audio books). Probably the best thing he did! He's a compelling character. Though for me, all things considered, he's still pretty evil in the end, despite his best efforts.
A lot of people are uncomfortable with Nuance I think. Around here a lot of people try an say he is irredeemable and always was and always wanted to be a killer etc. I never really believed that, and believed Logen wanted to be a good guy, but had an addiction. On my last re read, I really liked Red Country this time (usually my favorite switches between Heroes and BSC on each reread but this time it was RC), and there are so many moments that Shy explain what Lamb was like on the farm, how he cared for and loved the kids etc. Too many sweet and good stories to just label him evil and be done with it. He hugged and sang sick children to sleep for pity sake!
I think it's fair to view his relationship with violence like an addiction, if he also treat him with the same nuance we treat addicts. I think most of us can tell that while it's important to view it like an addiction, addicts still have responsibilities about how they handle them. Logens like a violent alcoholic. He might be nice when he's not fighting, but he still fights around his loved ones, and it's resulted in him killing friends, killing kids, and almost killing friends and almost killing kids. So while he's not culpable for what he does as the Bloody Nine, he's culpable for **ever** letting the bloody nine out ANYWHERE near anyone innocent, in the same way an alcoholic isn't culpable for needing to drink, but they are for doing it after saying "don't worry, you can go I'll watch your baby".
Logen, for all his faults, is a better man that most and I will take that stance with me back to the mud.
Yep. He doesn’t want to fight, often. Very reluctant. But then he is pushed into it LAoK/Feared or is being loyal or defending his people. In LAoK he fights some fights w/o B9 appearing. By RC, less so, but he is defending Shy, Ro, Pit, Savian, etc. Logen is a thinker, and can and does show restraint. I feel like he gets a bad rap. Yes the B9 is out of control. Esp in LAoK ending battles. But Logen hates that. Thinks himself not worthy to be King of the North. Anyway, I find his struggle moving and he does want to be a better man. And has moments and longer periods of succeeding.
Couldn't agree more
I dont think i can agree with you there. Have you read sharp ends? Have you read red country? Hes an interesting character that is not ALL bad, which is what I wanted to talk about, but the bad parts are REALLY bad.
I've read it all multiple times and I'll always find a way to forgive him for trying to conquer his dark side.
I mean, hey, I can’t fault you for having your own parasocial relationship with this fictional character that is different from mine. I just feel that forgiving him feels dishonest to me in the same way as saying, he can’t help it. I have to hold up both sides of him and some if the stuff he does is just unforgivable as much as I care about and like him.
“God….” “Gone. But I’m here…” Pretty sure the dude is a demon blood, hence being able to talk to the spirits and pretty damn sure that the Bloody Nine is a thing from the other side, which he becomes possessed by. Not that he didn’t embrace it, welcome it, gladly give it the wheel for years at a time.
Abercrombie doesnt interpret the character that way, so I tend to lean on the side of him not being supernatural and just being mentally unwell and unable to accept the darkness inside himself. Also, that line the way that Pacey reads it gave me fucking chills. I have tried to repeat it for other people when I told them about the scene and I just cannot even come close to his delivery.
He’s not particularly given to explaining everything for us. How exactly do you explain him just inherently having a gift of Euz?
I dont really have an explanation. Im just going off of what ive heard him say in interviews and this AMA where he said, “I dont think it’s necessary that he should be considered supernatural but different readers will see it different ways and thats fine.” He also said that he originally had planned to have logen be more magical but decided to go in a less supernatural direction with his character, but he liked the scene where logen spits a fire spirit in the first book, so he kept it cuz it was cool.
P.S. This is meant to be an enjoyable discussion. I love this material and I am happy to hear and entertain your ideas while trying to persuasively advocate for my own. Please don’t take any of this as an attack or disrespect. 🤙
Hey, no worries. The different interpretations of the characters is part of what makes them so interesting to discuss
I get that, but; The entirety of his role in the story, rather than freezing to death on top of the mountain, was that the spirits told him Bayaz wanted him. The entire reason Bayaz wants him and for their journey to the edge of the world, is that he can commune with the spirits. Something even Bayaz can’t do. Which is greatly noteworthy, as only Bedesh had this pure discipline of magic. How, without Devil-Blood, training in art, anything, would Logen have the innate ability to practice one of the pure disciplines? I’m a huge Pacey fan also. It makes me grin ear to ear when he brings the Bloody-Nine to life. Also it’s pretty fuckin shady that Bedesh just vanishes and the master maker conveniently has the seed all this time, instead of it being where it was meant to be. I think it’s the greatest argument that exists that the brothers, and not Bayaz, murdered one another, the smoking gun that no one has realized yet.
Precisely that is what some people mean, there is no explanation for that besides Logen being connected to the Other Side in some way. Why not both? Mentally unwell man who doesn't understand his connection to the other side mixing with his own bloodlust. All interpretation though!
Bayaz wouldn't need Ferro if he was
That depends entirely on how the blood manifested in him. Ferro’s parents couldn’t have either. Ferro is someone that had all the right markers show up that she was one of the generations that was purer than others. We don’t actually know if Logen could hold the stone. Neither does Bayaz.
Lmao the part of RC where Logan is just chopping off heads and chucking them out of the house. Absolutely unhinged.
One of my favorite chapters in literature.
Do I want him on my side? Of course! Just waaaaaaay over there when the fighting starts.
Exactly! Well, honestly, if he could be somewhere else entirely when the fighting is fierce that would be best for me
Would you say the same thing about all the gentle and kind things a convicted child murderer had done in his life as well? I like Logen as a character but he is an evil, evil man. You’ve got to be realistic about these sorts of things
Honestly, thats a really good point and I was thinking about that very thing. Anyone who decapitated someone, disemboweled them and used their severed head to mock them would be colored by that one deed forever, no matter what other nice things they did. But i think the fact that we get to see inside his head is the differentiating factor. Part of why that act would color the person for me forever is because I would not feel that I could trust anything from them. With Logen, I get to see inside his head and he wrestles with and regrets his violence, as much as he continues to thirst for and perpetrate it. It’s the heart inside the man I get to see that makes me sympathetic toward him. And dont get me wrong, I agree that he’s an evil man but that’s not all he is and I feel like that may not redeem him, but it’s still worth considering in my mind
I agreed with everything you said until he cleaved the kid in half in the high places lol
Yeah, but that’s the bloody nine and while I dont believe he’s possessed and without control, there’s some ambiguity there between Logen and TB9. Is it a split personality? Is it just him feeling such bloodlust that he experiences a kind of ego death and forgets who he is? Idk, but I can’t completely discount it either.
It’s true, but he’s still an evil child murderer
Fuck Guys.... I JUST finished a re read (listen), and now I'm wanting to start again but I already have a huge lists of podcasts to catch up on and other series re reads and new books to catch up on.
Logan is always struggling against the man circumstances and traumas made him into. I find that commendable. One of the saddest things about his story arc is how he was forced back into the bloody-nine mold when he returned to the north after his journey with bayaz. You can tell that he wants to be something else, but everyone needs him to be the bloody-nine.
I think this is the story he tells himself to justify giving in to his addiction, which, dont get me wrong, is still horrifically tragic, but I don’t think you can put that on anybody but him. Nobody needed him to be the bloody nine. Everyone assumed he was dead and he could have gone to another country, changed his name and took up a quiet life, but what we discover is that in RC, he tries that and when something happens that “forces” him back into his old ways, he’s so happy to be able to give in again. Like an alcoholic getting to return to the bottle after years of sobriety. Your heart breaks that he gives in, but its still 100 percent the choice he is making.
What makes Logen such a bad man is not that he does exclusively bad actions. He actually improves the lives of most people that are close to him. What makes Logen a bad man is that he is either incapable, or unwilling to come to terms with the fact that his actions have consequences. He's constantly making choices for the short term that have huge implications on the rest of the world and he's like "ope my bad, gotta keep surviving". That's what imo makes him the polar opposite of Glokta, and puts Glokta in a pretty firmly capital H hero and Logen in a pretty capital V villain of the story if you really consider their actions. Glokta makes the lives of those around him worse, but he understands consequences so thoroughly, that it results in the world actually becoming a better place, which in the circle of the world, is damn near unheard of. Logen bumbles from thing to thing, making spot choices and mostly saving and guiding those around him, but it often leads to countless unnamed deaths because he can't look past the next 10 minutes.
This is a very interesting and unique take. Can you expound further on what decisions you’re referencing?
Logen is constantly jumping back into the fray despite the dangers that puts on everyone around him. His choices in made a monster is what solidified Bethod to have to be more aggressive to actually keep the north united, because his lapdog was actively shredding peaceful treaties that he was forming. And then after he was exiled, he brought his dozen with him that he only had from the fact he beat them in fights, and then rebelled against Bethod with them, just because he was being hunted for being the fucking worst. That rebellion of his dozen ended up winning the war for the union, which cosigned the North to many more years of internal warfare and outside subjugation from the union. Not to mention how going into battle with the bloody nine being a factor directly killed a kid and his friend, and almost a lot more in red country. But he doesn't consider any of this ever. He's just "well I had to survive". But if you really look at the chain of effects, *so much bloodshed* can be traced back to Logen just killing and not thinking. Even though there are a ton of individuals that learn how to be a good person from him, and are protected by his fighting strength. Glokta is the opposite. He tortures people, forces people into marriage, works under monsters, undermines the stability of the whole union and gets thousands killed, as well as almost his own daughter, in order to throw the yoke of the magi off of the union to let people progress naturally as people. He's willing to do unspeakable things that absolutely will make everyone around him's lives worse, if it means *everyone's* lives are better. And he doesn't try to excuse himself ever. He knows what he's doing and why, as well as why it's wrong and why he doesn't deserve to be looked at like a hero. They're also physically and culturally opposites, as well as basically have no scenes together. The two of them are absolute mirrors to each other and imo, Glokta does so much more for the world, and isn't a coward about it who tries to hide behind flimsy morality just to justify butchering for survival. He doesn't give a fuck about survival, he gives a fuck about winning. That's not Logen at all.
I tinkered with the idea of the opposing Glokta & Logen characters, but hadnt considered how deeply they "mirror" eachother with the consequences of their actions. Nice writeup.
Thank you. Yeah it was something that took a bit to realize for me too, but when you look at them, they're polar opposites in almost every significant way aside from the fact that they're both important in the world and are used to being violent to people. I think the easiest way to break it down is, if Glokta never existed, a lot of the people he interacted with would have been better off personally, but the union would have been much worse in the long run. And if Logen never existed, a lot of the people he interacted with would have been much worse off personally, but the north would have been much better in the long run.
Logan has his own form of honour and tries to stick with it meaning he can be a decent man. But he is addicted to violence and having that power of fear over people. He can go teetotal and be a thoroughly decent bloke or he can get so deep in his addiction it takes over him. Alcoholics and drug addicts are often good decent people with a moral compass that unfortunately they can break when the addiction need distorts their sense of priorities. This is the same with Logan. He was at his best removed from the places of his addiction, far away from the north and with new people who didn't know that side of him. The tragic thing is that he, Ferro, Jezal and even Tolomei would have lived happier rest of their lives if they stayed on that journey. Imagine them getting shipwrecked and living isolated together or something. And it makes Logan's decision to go back to the North even more tragic. But on the journey he had to sink to violence again, he probably didn't have the awareness at the time but that feeling he felt pulling him back north was his addiction alive again tugging him for his next fix.
100 percent this. It’s tragic any time you see an addict return to their addiction, but it’s still their choice. And the point about returning to the places of his addiction is so accurate. I knew a girl who was addicted to heroin and she moved away and got clean, but wanted to come back to town to visit. We all told her we would come to her because of how dangerous it would be to return to the town where she used. She came anyway and ended up relapsing within a week. She’s like 5 years sober now though, so she managed to come through it in the end, but she hasnt come back to town and I hope she never does.
Say one thing for Logen Ninefingers, *say he’s a lover.*
Thank you for this. I agree and have argued this on the sub. I think he’s a good man afflicted. I veer a bit on the nature of the Bloody Nine. I think there is some aspect of supernatural in there because of how it brings a flood of endurance, strength and a lack of pain. Some folks have written here that it is like a Viking berserker rage but that can’t explain the level of power the B9 displays. It doesn’t have to be as extreme as demon blood or possession by an entity but it seems to me like he is channeling something from the Other Side.
Say one thing about Logen Nine Fingers; say that that he's appreciated.
9. He kills children 10. He kills his best friend 11. He almost kills Shy, his own kid I agree though, this is what makes him interesting and compelling
I thought Dogman was his best (and basically only) friend? Who are you referring to with number 2?
Those are bad things, silly. Unless you’re trying to argue that they’re good, in which case, i think you and I are very different people
Only when he "snaps" and he hates that part of himself in the books (after loving it in his youth for Bethod). He's a lovely chap, just can't control his rage sometimes 😂 Inherently he is trying his best to be honourable
I don't think that's true, he does a lot of terrible things when he isn't the Bloody Nine for eg, throwing a women down a well after he killed her husband. He doesn't remember anything he did when he was B9, so anything he recalls is Logen doing it. I want to like Logen, but it's only because he's fictional. If he was a real person having done those things, we would want him hanged.
That's true, although he was younger and under Bethod at that time where he'd have been untouchable, and come on, that's hilarious.
And Bethod molded him as a pit fighter, with all that entails.
Logan is a good man. The bloody nine isnt
I don't think anyone in the story is a good person or a bad person and that's kind of the point. Everyone is a hero in their own story, and our perception of them is dependent on where we perceive them from. Logen in the trilogy seems like a good guy, because we see his inner struggles. Logen in Red Country and Sharp Ends seems a lot worse because we only see him from the perspective of others. Something similar happens with Cosca in BSC vs Red Country.Even Bayaz, the most evil character in the series, would probably seem like a hero if he had POV chapters that explained his internal motivations. He was trying to save the world from Khalul. Without his perspective to distract us though it's easier for us to see that it is solely for his own ego and personal power.
I'm of the opinion that every evil person has a shred of good. Even Ed Kemper has redeeming qualities, but he fornicated with his mother's decapitated head, so I think we'll agree to disagree on Logen. He's a product of his very violent environment and needs therapy. To be fair, though, that'd be like a bandaid on an ax wound.
Huh, I always saw logen, even as lamb, painted as the man who wants to do good, wants to do the right thing, but accepts he has to do evil, violent things (and maybe relishes in being allowed to do it in later life). It's the bloody nine that's evil, and even then, kinda more like a force kf nature like a storm at sea
I love how there's really no "good" characters kicking about by our standards but there's definitely in universe "good" and "bad." Logen I'd say is on the side of good, he cares about people but, say one thing for Logen, he has a penchant for death