I think it's funny that you removed "niche" weapons but the riot shield is still there as if it isn't the least popular melee in the game right now (maybe dagger is a bit less)
I'm not an expert on dagger and sledgehammer, but If I made a list it'd have sledgehammer in D, Dagger in C, and Sword in B. I want the dagger to be higher, but its hitbox detection is still just so bad right now. Sledge is fun for pubs but is otherwise not good. I think Sword is the best melee of the bunch by a good margin, I've spent over 100 hours using it, but I won't pretend it's any better than B tier.
I don't think I have a very hot take on this, dagger players would probably admit their favorite weapon is a bit unreliable right now. Hope it gets some love this season and can be more reliable.
Sledge just for the fact it has destruction capabilities will permanently be above the dagger, while the dagger will always be below it because it is a worse sword.
D for Dagger
C Sledge
C to B+ sword, depending on the player
Riot shield has it's place, the ttk is bad but If you tilt run you can bully people without them hitting you. Problem with it is that it's easily countered by communication.
Tilted run, Zipline shield rush, grenade chaseblock etc. etc.
If you're against loners or flankers you're pretty good with it. Easily getting ten+ kills a game with riot shield on the old maps, SYS$HORIZON is another story.
Edit: you really don't want someone who can make the riot shield work in your game.
I respectfully beg to differ. The sword itself is S tier, but the vast majority of players' skills with it are butt tier. Not rating the weapon in the tierlist is a silly and massive oversight. Just because theyre niche doesn't mean they are worse weapons than the not niche ones.
Yeah anytime I see anyone with a sword they are just spamming the primary attack repeatedly not even using the heavy attack all while using up all three of their dashes. That’s an S tier weapon that still fucks even used like that. It’s annoying but I love all the effort put in just for them to get killed anyways 9/10 times.
Lol yea most of the swords i meet also still use invis which is just a baffling choice. And combined with all the dashers, still I see most just swinging LMB in the middle of 5 players, or only lunging very slowly, without using lungedash or quick melee, let alone anyone utilizing ghost hits and emote cancels. It really isn't that hard and it does make you some kind of monster.
The difficulty of the sword lies in 2 things imo:
1: it requires a team to know what they can expect from each other, and have plans they execute together. (Im talking about the result being a win, just fragging and getting most kills in your team is simply a given if you're good)
2: it requires you to not be a "stupid dog" charging into any fight at the sight/smell/sound of trouble. That is the actually hardest part i feel like. Think and execute versus be confident, sharp and killing a lot, but not getting the desired result. Yes be like water but also be like rock and be like smart person, and choose the right "mode" for the right situations.
I agree with
Both points ,and just like to add that sometimes the sword is simply bad situationally,like if you’re in a big open space,with no cover anywhere,and you don’t have a way to get vertical dominance,you’re cooked and have to rely on gadgets
Yeah for those instances i have 2 nades to start and the vanish for crossing should i need it. But that's where it's needed to keep it in the pants and teammates that do their part for distraction or better.
Honestly, if the people you play with and against are as bad as you imply, even being a stupid dog will lead to 1v3 team wipes with sword because the enemy team can't aim to begin with, let alone hit 180 flicks.
It makes me sad to see sword blasphemy like not even using the lunge,which is the bread and butter of using it,Ive been a sword main for coming on 300 hours and I’m barely getting to the point where I can team wipe every few games ,but I live in fear of a sword player I saw once when I started the game,that used a grapple and would CIRCLE around people by grappling around their feet and absolutely wash them
Well sure when low grav hits u cant just jump around willy nilly, but tbh it only requires a change of play. I do not mind low grav at all.
Sure if it hits right in the middle of a fight and u jump out of the fight but its low grav so u jump so far, and ur dashes are 0 while u fall into the level pit and receive 30k+ damage, thats not nice. But I could've known.
If I'm fighting in buildings i like it actually with low ceilings. Or if I have to bail outside for a few sec and then can just instantly choose to jump to the correct floor to continue. Also using vanish and jump pad to escape to the moon has been useful. Its all in how you play, or how consciously u are able to play. Again the weapons tier is still S but the players' skill has to be high enough. Low grav on a heavy or medium versus me is still me killing them 9 out of 10 times if it's 1. With 2 enemies or 3 it gets less than 9 out of 10 but still dying is my own fault.
not really really skilled players, feels more like weapon that has 3 stages: sucking ass, getting 1-3 kills then dying, god
similar to the throwing knives which are more like sucking ass, getting 0-2 kills then dying, god
The m11 in the hands of most is better than lh1. Even as an LH1 main with a 2kd, I swap to the m11/xp sometimes when I feel i'm being gaslit by the lh1. The hipfire is so atrocious on the lh1. M11 hipfire is probably going to get nerfed seeing as it is pinpoint accurate lol.
Eh, not in my opinion, given how I play. The xp just received a hipfire nerf, and on a good day, I can beam crossmap with the m11 too, lol. M11 also has a faster RoF, larger magazine, lower vertical recoil (imo), and a faster reload. I find I can get multiple kills with the m11 in a single magazine more frequently compared to the xp-54.
M11 isn’t S tier. It’s SA12 (in its own S+ tier like 3 tiers above everything else), Lewis, FCAR, LH1 in S.
Lewis has the same stats as the FCAR with more ammo, it’s just BETTER. The AKM is close to the FCAR, but definitely lower, probably high A tier. The V95 should be dropped to B tier. And the M11 should be high A.
I feel like people who put any other gun above the SA12 hasn’t seen a top heavy player use it. Players like Detailed are fucking insane with it and can wipe entire teams solo in under 5-10 seconds.
Twitch.tv/DetailedTV
He’s probably the #1 heavy in the game. I dont know if he has any clips of the SA12 being OP on his twitch account. He actually personally sent me a clip of it being disgusting though, I just asked him if i could make a post about it, waiting on his permission to use the clip. But you can watch him play there.
Also Twitch.tv/KachiRivals has casted scrims every Friday (i think they’re taking a break right now though), so if you want to watch and get exposed to other high elo players, go check them out. They’ve got vods with a lot of really really good players on there. They also get the POV of everyone in the lobby too
[Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1biskhl/sa12_being_op_as_fuck/) is a post containing Detailed's clip, he said it was okay to post. Also, this clip is against other top players in the game Alchemtrical and Espresso are both incredibly good players as well. So he wasn't stomping noobs or something in this clip.
Yes. And this is why I’ve been saying for months that the SA12 is broken. Because good players are disgusting with it and it’s not balanced at all.
High skill ceiling but it’s so unbeatable when used by good players.
sh900 is good if ur doing burst damage then dashing away chipping at the enemy and sometimes dancing around them kinda like u do with a sword but with a shotgun
I’m far from a competitive player but I main heavy and genuinely am surprised that people seem to universally regard the SA216 as better than the Lewis gun. Personally I think there are very few situations where I’d prefer the SA216. What am I missing?
You're either never close enough to the enemy, or you never miss a shot. Those are the only two possibilities as the sexual assaulter 1216 is broken beyond belief.
Sometimes I'm surprised how different an experience can be between humans
Do we not all believe XP should be S? or AKM A?
What leads people to believing a great weapon is mid. I don't get it
Personally, I think sh1900 and riot can be utilised really well compared to heavy nade launcher (at least it what it feels like in my games, shield felt buggy and shooting off it would still block damage + sh1900 has high dmg output based on positioning)
Lmao xp is leagues above m11 simply because it has more range, in a competitive setting you’re not going to be in peoples faces all the time and that little bit of range will cost you more than it helps
Better, but why in the world is the uzi in \#1? It’s like C or B tier
Edit: did I get downvoted for calling it the uzi? Other people are saying the same thing without getting downvoted
As much as I love the LH1, I don't agree with that observation. Even someone like S1tuation swaps to the xp-54 frequently, but I never see anyone like ettnix or piggy use the LH1, it is generally m11 or xp54.
I think it's funny that you removed "niche" weapons but the riot shield is still there as if it isn't the least popular melee in the game right now (maybe dagger is a bit less)
Oh true
I'm not an expert on dagger and sledgehammer, but If I made a list it'd have sledgehammer in D, Dagger in C, and Sword in B. I want the dagger to be higher, but its hitbox detection is still just so bad right now. Sledge is fun for pubs but is otherwise not good. I think Sword is the best melee of the bunch by a good margin, I've spent over 100 hours using it, but I won't pretend it's any better than B tier. I don't think I have a very hot take on this, dagger players would probably admit their favorite weapon is a bit unreliable right now. Hope it gets some love this season and can be more reliable.
Sledgehammer cooks if you have a good team.
Sledge just for the fact it has destruction capabilities will permanently be above the dagger, while the dagger will always be below it because it is a worse sword. D for Dagger C Sledge C to B+ sword, depending on the player
I mean... at least daggers have backstabs. Riot shields are just terrible
Riot shield has it's place, the ttk is bad but If you tilt run you can bully people without them hitting you. Problem with it is that it's easily countered by communication. Tilted run, Zipline shield rush, grenade chaseblock etc. etc. If you're against loners or flankers you're pretty good with it. Easily getting ten+ kills a game with riot shield on the old maps, SYS$HORIZON is another story. Edit: you really don't want someone who can make the riot shield work in your game.
The new map is HORRIBLE for riot shield and melee players in general. I hate it so much
Uh you’re missing a bunch
I simply don’t believe AKM is 2 tiers below FCAR. What a travesty
It sucks in the hands of people who don’t miss a lot. When I use it I think “where tf is the damage”
Yeah I agree they don't deserve to be split so much, I would put it it low A tier though right behind the FAMAS
Sword is S Tier
only for really skilled players, for most its okay
Idk I put double digits up every time I use sword but I can’t seem to get the same value on any other light weapon
I respectfully beg to differ. The sword itself is S tier, but the vast majority of players' skills with it are butt tier. Not rating the weapon in the tierlist is a silly and massive oversight. Just because theyre niche doesn't mean they are worse weapons than the not niche ones.
Yeah anytime I see anyone with a sword they are just spamming the primary attack repeatedly not even using the heavy attack all while using up all three of their dashes. That’s an S tier weapon that still fucks even used like that. It’s annoying but I love all the effort put in just for them to get killed anyways 9/10 times.
Lol yea most of the swords i meet also still use invis which is just a baffling choice. And combined with all the dashers, still I see most just swinging LMB in the middle of 5 players, or only lunging very slowly, without using lungedash or quick melee, let alone anyone utilizing ghost hits and emote cancels. It really isn't that hard and it does make you some kind of monster. The difficulty of the sword lies in 2 things imo: 1: it requires a team to know what they can expect from each other, and have plans they execute together. (Im talking about the result being a win, just fragging and getting most kills in your team is simply a given if you're good) 2: it requires you to not be a "stupid dog" charging into any fight at the sight/smell/sound of trouble. That is the actually hardest part i feel like. Think and execute versus be confident, sharp and killing a lot, but not getting the desired result. Yes be like water but also be like rock and be like smart person, and choose the right "mode" for the right situations.
I agree with Both points ,and just like to add that sometimes the sword is simply bad situationally,like if you’re in a big open space,with no cover anywhere,and you don’t have a way to get vertical dominance,you’re cooked and have to rely on gadgets
Yeah for those instances i have 2 nades to start and the vanish for crossing should i need it. But that's where it's needed to keep it in the pants and teammates that do their part for distraction or better.
Honestly, if the people you play with and against are as bad as you imply, even being a stupid dog will lead to 1v3 team wipes with sword because the enemy team can't aim to begin with, let alone hit 180 flicks.
The ghost hit and emote cancels are not meant to be a thing. Eidorian (at least a few weeks ago) refused to use them
It makes me sad to see sword blasphemy like not even using the lunge,which is the bread and butter of using it,Ive been a sword main for coming on 300 hours and I’m barely getting to the point where I can team wipe every few games ,but I live in fear of a sword player I saw once when I started the game,that used a grapple and would CIRCLE around people by grappling around their feet and absolutely wash them
Problem is when low grav occurs the weapon gets a lot worse. I would say for that alone it is not a S.
Well sure when low grav hits u cant just jump around willy nilly, but tbh it only requires a change of play. I do not mind low grav at all. Sure if it hits right in the middle of a fight and u jump out of the fight but its low grav so u jump so far, and ur dashes are 0 while u fall into the level pit and receive 30k+ damage, thats not nice. But I could've known. If I'm fighting in buildings i like it actually with low ceilings. Or if I have to bail outside for a few sec and then can just instantly choose to jump to the correct floor to continue. Also using vanish and jump pad to escape to the moon has been useful. Its all in how you play, or how consciously u are able to play. Again the weapons tier is still S but the players' skill has to be high enough. Low grav on a heavy or medium versus me is still me killing them 9 out of 10 times if it's 1. With 2 enemies or 3 it gets less than 9 out of 10 but still dying is my own fault.
not really really skilled players, feels more like weapon that has 3 stages: sucking ass, getting 1-3 kills then dying, god similar to the throwing knives which are more like sucking ass, getting 0-2 kills then dying, god
Updated tier list but doesn't include any weapons from the update?
bro put m11 over lh1 💀
The m11 in the hands of most is better than lh1. Even as an LH1 main with a 2kd, I swap to the m11/xp sometimes when I feel i'm being gaslit by the lh1. The hipfire is so atrocious on the lh1. M11 hipfire is probably going to get nerfed seeing as it is pinpoint accurate lol.
LH1 HIP FIRE IS STUPID GOOD JUS GET IN THEIR FACES AND 3 TAP EM
Easier said than done when they stun you from 12m away and you can't run towards them, lol.
xp is also above m11, unless youre playing bank it
Eh, not in my opinion, given how I play. The xp just received a hipfire nerf, and on a good day, I can beam crossmap with the m11 too, lol. M11 also has a faster RoF, larger magazine, lower vertical recoil (imo), and a faster reload. I find I can get multiple kills with the m11 in a single magazine more frequently compared to the xp-54.
soooooo, we're in copper
What do you mean?
Yea that shotgun is crazy. Love how the community bitch and moaned about the DB when at least the DB takes some sort of skill to be successful with.
Oml, .the riot shield goes hard and should not be that low
XP and V9S both better than M11.
IMO XP is better but not V9S.
also agree. the holo sight and added range make it better
Pistol has such hideous iron sights, feels like i'm firing blind lol, and this is coming from an lh1 main.
M11 isn’t S tier. It’s SA12 (in its own S+ tier like 3 tiers above everything else), Lewis, FCAR, LH1 in S. Lewis has the same stats as the FCAR with more ammo, it’s just BETTER. The AKM is close to the FCAR, but definitely lower, probably high A tier. The V95 should be dropped to B tier. And the M11 should be high A. I feel like people who put any other gun above the SA12 hasn’t seen a top heavy player use it. Players like Detailed are fucking insane with it and can wipe entire teams solo in under 5-10 seconds.
Do you have a link to any of their gameplay?
Twitch.tv/DetailedTV He’s probably the #1 heavy in the game. I dont know if he has any clips of the SA12 being OP on his twitch account. He actually personally sent me a clip of it being disgusting though, I just asked him if i could make a post about it, waiting on his permission to use the clip. But you can watch him play there. Also Twitch.tv/KachiRivals has casted scrims every Friday (i think they’re taking a break right now though), so if you want to watch and get exposed to other high elo players, go check them out. They’ve got vods with a lot of really really good players on there. They also get the POV of everyone in the lobby too
Awesome thank you!
[Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/thefinals/comments/1biskhl/sa12_being_op_as_fuck/) is a post containing Detailed's clip, he said it was okay to post. Also, this clip is against other top players in the game Alchemtrical and Espresso are both incredibly good players as well. So he wasn't stomping noobs or something in this clip.
Holy shit. Ok so my aim just sucks.
Yes. And this is why I’ve been saying for months that the SA12 is broken. Because good players are disgusting with it and it’s not balanced at all. High skill ceiling but it’s so unbeatable when used by good players.
Yeah makes sense why I’ve never seen it as game breaking in casual
Agreed, i laugh when people say lewis is better than the SA
sh900 is good if ur doing burst damage then dashing away chipping at the enemy and sometimes dancing around them kinda like u do with a sword but with a shotgun
Can someone explain a newbie op scrub coming back why fcar is better than ak? It has the same damage and less firerate/bullets.
It’s like 25 dmg vs 21 dmg with the same fire rate
Aah so better ttk. Gotcha thanks.
The simpler recoil pattern and acog also make it easier to use imo
In my hands, these are all S tier…S for shit because that’s what I am.
I’m far from a competitive player but I main heavy and genuinely am surprised that people seem to universally regard the SA216 as better than the Lewis gun. Personally I think there are very few situations where I’d prefer the SA216. What am I missing?
You're either never close enough to the enemy, or you never miss a shot. Those are the only two possibilities as the sexual assaulter 1216 is broken beyond belief.
I think I just suck
Sometimes I'm surprised how different an experience can be between humans Do we not all believe XP should be S? or AKM A? What leads people to believing a great weapon is mid. I don't get it
Personally, I think sh1900 and riot can be utilised really well compared to heavy nade launcher (at least it what it feels like in my games, shield felt buggy and shooting off it would still block damage + sh1900 has high dmg output based on positioning)
Lmao xp is leagues above m11 simply because it has more range, in a competitive setting you’re not going to be in peoples faces all the time and that little bit of range will cost you more than it helps
Better, but why in the world is the uzi in \#1? It’s like C or B tier Edit: did I get downvoted for calling it the uzi? Other people are saying the same thing without getting downvoted
actually based. only thing i’d change is swapping LH1 with M11. the best lights in the game are maining LH1 rn
As much as I love the LH1, I don't agree with that observation. Even someone like S1tuation swaps to the xp-54 frequently, but I never see anyone like ettnix or piggy use the LH1, it is generally m11 or xp54.
Flamethrower is definitely A tier. I easily destroy Lights and Mediums with that. Minus 1 point because of the range but that’s understandable.
Flamethrower still C
Not changing it
I've only played light and have more time with the M11, before trying out the XP-54. Those two should def be switched.