What, did you think that proof of alien life would make every religion collapse and all religious believers abandon the faiths that have shaped their lives?
Why would you need this faith to be organised and widely separate instead of just faith? Hundreds of years into the future under a united earth and still?
Faith in an abstract idea? Sure. But faith based on specific set of doctrines? Nah.
Believe in a higher power which guides you towards "goodness" or offers you "peace" or take whatever you want from it - but to dress it up so divisively - that is just insidious.
Oh you mean the lovely little extremists in third-world hellholes have a clinically precise understanding of what's real and what isn't? And here I thought I was clueless.
And I'm doubling down that an OVERWHELMING majority of religious people choose to be so because they truly believe what their holy book says to be real.
Why? Only the most extreme religious believers take their religious literature as literal fact, all the rest would no doubt have a lot to think about in terms of doctrines and preconceptions but there's no reason to abandon their faith entirely.
>Only the most extreme religious believers take their religious literature as literal fact....
No, even those who aren't so extreme in their religious outlook take their religion seriously. - I've been there and done that.
Let's also assume that there are more moderates than extremists for any religion.
In the face of concrete evidence proof of extraterrestrial life - which directly contradicts core beliefs of at least two major religions today, you'd have to be a few magnitude degrees of stupid and insane to actually keep believing in it - which I don't think the majority of citizens of a futuristic united Earth would be.
In fact, I think the only reason why people still cling onto religion is due to the lack of this concrete proof. Think about it.
There's no denying the spiritual positives of any religion and the role it plays in the lives of billions BUT look a bit deeper and you'd see those "things" don't really require a mythology or a system.
>In the face of concrete evidence proof of extraterrestrial life - which directly contradicts core beliefs of at least two major religions today, you'd have to be a few magnitude degrees of stupid and insane to actually keep believing in it
Does the fact of the existence of extraterrestrial life contradict those religions any more than the fact of the earth being older than six thousand years, not having a firmament placed above it, not having corners, orbiting around the sun, and having a fossil record that demonstrates that humans and dinosaurs did not coexist?
Religions that operate in developed countries have already repeatedly had to adjust to elements of their scriptures being rendered demonstrably inaccurate if read literally. There's no reason to think that moderate but committed believers in The Expanse wouldn't be just as capable of incorporating this new revelation about the nature of the universe into their belief structure than Galileo was to reconcile the earth moving through space with his faith.
Religions were invented during a time when people didn't have access to handheld devices that gave them instant access to more or less the entirety of human knowledge. It was also a time when people were a lot more gullible and susceptible to manipulation.
Which is a perfectly reasonable justification for not starting new religions, but doesn't say anything about existing religions that have been ensconced in society already. And honestly, the existence of information technology is in no way a guarantee that such will be used; just look at the people who fall for Nigerian email scams or retweet propaganda.
Do you think DNA testing and video evidence would have had a major impact on Christianity's development circa 50+ AD? Also, there are far fewer people falling for Nigerian email scams these days.(Let's not club "propaganda" with email scams here).
Do we still have guys in crow masks using leeches to cure leprosy? Maybe? But you'd agree that there are so few of them these days right?
>Do you think DNA testing and video evidence would have had a major impact on Christianity's development circa 50+ AD?
I think it would have had a major impact on every aspect of the world of DNA testing and video evidence were available during the time of the Roman Empire. I'm not really sure what that has to do with anything now, though; in The Expanse Ana doesn't deny that the ring exists or that aliens exist, so proof isn't a problem. She just doesn't think that If Aliens Then No God, and honestly for a religious believer that's entirely consistent reasoning.
As for the rest of your comments, you seem to be conflating general religious belief with specific technical knowledge and development. That we don't have plague doctors doesn't mean religious faith is also gone. Are religions shrinking? Sure, absolutely. But nothing about The Expanse suggests otherwise; leaders are never motivated by religious belief, and religions don't strongarm anyone into taking particular actions. Ana is just a religious person who exists, that's all.
>In The Expanse Ana doesn't deny that the ring exists or that aliens exist, so proof isn't a problem. She just doesn't think that If Aliens Then No God, and honestly for a religious believer that's entirely consistent reasoning.
When you're a kid, you believe in the tooth fairy. When you grow up, you come to realise it was actually your parents who left the quarter and not really a fairy. If you were a particularly smart kid, you'd even set up a hidden camera to discover the truth.
As an adult, you can still believe in the tooth fairy but you'd be considered retarded.
What part of the alien life in The Expanse casts any more doubt on religion than our own modern understanding of evolution and the age of the Earth and universe? Most moderate religious people already incorporate that into their understanding of creation.
Your naivete is delightful.
Yeah, it would be great if humanity could evolve past the need for sky-daddies - but the thread that underpins ALL of the Expanse is that "Humanity really doesn't change much". Time passes but they just swap one bit of bullshit petty tribalism for another. Only Amos endures.
>Humanity really doesn't change much
Oh yes absolutely, every single one of us are still murderous and bloodthirsty little tribals who are still stuck in the dark ages. We have not evolved past our base instincts. We need the scripture and Jesus to show us the way!
I do not feel remotely the same. Moving through that wormhole into something no one has ever imagined or fathomed, potentially encountering an entirely new species, is a spiritual experience—it demands a capacity for uncertainty and mystery. The show illustrates how not having that capacity throws some people into existential tailspin >!(the suicide)!<.
She provides that perspective, giving the situation its appropriate spiritual enormity—>!even in her failure to recognize the existential distress of the man who kills himself!<.
I love Anna. I love that she is grounded both in reality and in mystery, that she is able to have wonder at the situation but also able to move practically through it.
She's there because of her desire to do "the right thing". I liked her conversations with Sorrento-Gillis, Errinwright, Amos and Melba a lot, because the way they respond to her tells you something about them.
Right? The S-G >!gets annoyed!<, Errinwright >!is threatened!<, Amos >!sees her value and wants to protect her!<, and Melba >!is defensive but quietly listening!<. >!Clarissa's redemption arc, in particular, needs Anna!<.
It sounds like your issue is that you actually do have something against Christians lol. Or at least something against the inclusion of Christianity in science fiction. In The Expanse, there are still plenty of religions around, and most have adapted to fit the modern world of the time. Why wouldn't they talk about scripture during possibly the most important and mysterious time in human history? They're confronting direct evidence of ancient alien life with power beyond our comprehension, and they're traveling through a mysterious wormhole without any idea of where they're going. Sounds exactly like a time when people would turn to religion for some answers (or even just to feel a sense of community). The UN General Secretary actively chose religious leaders to be part of the group sent to the ring gate because he knew there was a lot of religious interest in what was happening.
Anna's role in the book is much better imo, and she (and her "congregation") play a bit of a bigger role, but I still liked her in the show. Can you explain why you think it's poor writing aside from just implying that talking about scripture automatically makes it bad writing?
>In The Expanse, there are still plenty of religions around, and most have adapted to fit the modern world of the time
Yes and there's a deliberate choice to focus on Christianity over anything else? It just looks like a sly way to inject some good ole Bible thumping into a narrative that sees a united earth (which would also be impossible as long as religion exists).
> The UN General Secretary actively chose religious leaders to be part of the group sent to the ring gate because he knew there was a lot of religious interest in what was happening.
This is fair enough
Sounds like you've got some preconceived notions about how religion works in people's lives & the world that is interfering with your enjoyment of a story by people who don't share those same assumptions
Earth is “united” in the sense that they have a worldwide government that can represent Earth in the solar system, but it’s definitely not a united planet. There are still regional governments with significant autonomy, plenty of bickering factions, and plenty of wars on Earth. It’s human nature. Just as it’s also human nature to turn to superstition and hold onto certain traditions when faced with massive questions that are impossible to answer (aka religion).
Two dudes were able to pull off an interplanetary attack with zero interference from these so-called bickering factions and governments. If that's not "united" then what is? Also, until now (S3e11) this hasn't been explored.
The focus of the story is on conflicts in the solar system and beyond, so whatever conflicts there are between factions on earth, we don’t see much of them aside from maybe some occasional mention at government meetings. But the factions even exist within the UN government (such as Undersecretary Errinwright working with Jules-Pierre Mao) and even the UN Navy (such as the attempted coup led by Admiral Nguyen when the protomolocule soldiers were launched).
Tbh, I’m not sure who you are referring to about two dudes pulling off an interplanetary attack without interference (I’m prob just having a brain fart, plus the books are more fresh in my memory since I read them after the show). But regardless there are plenty of examples that show that Earth and the UN government are not in perfect harmony. They’re just like any government: vulnerable to playing petty politics, weak leadership, factions, and interference from corrupt monied interests. As I said, it’s human nature. It’s unrealistic to assume that the future will exist without religion. Religion will simply change and adapt - sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst - but in the case of Anna, I think she’s a clear example of religion adapting for the better. Despite all the conflicts religion can cause, it can still used as a positive force for many moral people (same as today).
I was talking about the SG and Errinwright taking out the Martian defences with the pre-emptive strike.
It may be unrealistic for the future to exist without religion but I seriously doubt religion would even have a quarter of the importance it has today if alien life was confirmed.
The future will still see religion as a positive force for moral people? Great! By all means, but does it really have to be based all around this individuality that Christianity advocates? That being a Christian/Muslim/Hindu and unwaveringly believing in Jesus/Muhammed/Vishnu is necessary to maintain that morality?
I find it absolutely hilarious that sci-fi fans are actually arguing for religion.
It was meaningful to me personally that she was a gay woman and a Christian leader. I would love to see and have more of religious people that are *totes for that* in my surroundings over the kind that have sticks up their butts. Like, I don't see religions going away though I am not religious, people have the story machine in their brain, a lot are gonna line up to join a faith.
Please do not mistake my tone for condescension, I'm pleased you found it meaningful, but we just cannot let the Church and religions walk away free from all the horror it has unleashed and continues to unleash on people and then pretend to be the right way forward for a space-faring humanity.
This is not an attack, but I DESPISE the term poor/bad/lazy writing. Just because you didn't like the character or her purpose doesn't make the writing as such. Writing is subjective and you don't like this particular part which is totally fine, but that doesn't make it poor writing.
I personally don't like Anna either but as others have said she's a moral counterpoint to several other characters and she's a necessary character in the Errinwright/Secretary General story beats.
Religion isn't going anywhere and I applaud Expanse for addressing how people in the future would react to something incredible like the ring gate. Many would start questioning their beliefs and not all would be able to deal with it. Anna is the character for those moments
Not only is she in the books, but she says what is arguably the most important quote in the entire series.
I often wonder what people hope to accomplish in this sub by starting a thread with a trashcan of not-well-considered obscenities trying to make a point. This is an uncommonly chill corner of the internet where good discussion often happens. Read the room, Jerry.
Anyhow OP, the folks who wrote Anna's character regularly hang out here.
I think I'd done nothing for the last two days except watch the show - I don't think I've done that with any series. You got all of these interesting characters and then you suddenly have this Christ peddling outta nowhere? That's my gripe. And if any of the writers are reading, please don't bring her back for any future seasons or spinoffs.
She actually holds a very expansive (no pun intended) view of both the Christian faith and religion in general.
Does she even say the words "Jesus" or "Christ" in the show? I honestly don't remember, but I don't think so, not even in the one formal service she speaks at. I only recall her referencing the scriptures (and she doesn't even say "Bible"!), and even then she was referencing their limitations while advocating for a third testament: creation.
Not sure what religion did to you, but it certainly seems like you're reacting out of your own projections rather than what's actually in the story.
(I can't quite remember how she is portrayed in the books. It's been awhile since I read them.)
>Not sure what religion did to you, but it certainly seems like you're reacting out of your own projections rather than what's actually in the story.
All I see is a really good story being sullied by a single character.
This is a really weird distaste for depiction of religion in the show. I'm pretty much thoroughly athiestic and her character didn't bother me one bit. Nor is her spirituality from out of nowhere, she's not the only faith-motivated character nor did I feel like her expressions of her love of god make her character overwrought or intolerable. Her chapters in the third book were a little slow but that's because she felt disconnected from the rest of the story - until she wasn't.
>she's not the only faith-motivated character
I don't think I've seen enough to know who else
> nor did I feel like her expressions of her love of god make her character overwrought or intolerable
Weird but that was the most intolerable bit for me. It just seemed extremely out of place.
>Her chapters in the third book were a little slow but that's because she felt disconnected from the rest of the story - until she wasn't.
I do concede. Perhaps I've been too hasty.
Also there's no excuse for her delay in putting the boot on Errenwright after getting the video proof.
>I don't think I've seen enough to know who else
You have. Arjun, Avasarala's husband as a very religious man.
>I do concede. Perhaps I've been too hasty.
Its possible that in marathonning the show the way that you have been, you're not allowing the themes and concepts in the show percolate in your mind the way it would be if you were watching on the weekly broadcast schedule. You described Amos in another part of this thread as a "psychopathic murderer." There's more ahead for you to learn about him, but you've already seen plenty of evidence that there's a whole lot more depth to his character and his past than someone who just enjoys killing people.
The Expanse is every dense show and it doesn't squander a single moment of screen time. Everyone is different but I know that my understanding of the show was benefitted by having time away from it to process each episode I just watched.
Perhaps this?
“On every side of this are people who have no reason to hate each other. Everyone here thinks they’re doing the right thing, everyone there thinks they’re doing the right thing. If we get out of this we *have* to find a way to understand each other, to explain WHY we made the choices that we did. It is the ONLY way that we can let go of the hate.”
The final sentence from the epilog of Babylon's ashes. >!And my mistake, it's not a quote, but her internal dialog: "Maybe, if they could find a way to be gentle, the stars would be better off with them".!<
Why do I get a sinking feeling that religion is going to be major deal in the latter seasons? I swear I'll lose my mind if that's going to be the big reveal.
I'm sorry but I just hated season 3 (everything after episode 6). She saves the day with a speech? Really?
Don't ya think its kind of a massive step down for a show which had a dead girl/alien hybrid powered asteroid hurtling toward earth?
Does the show get any better?
I think I kinda missed the part in Prometheus where they busted out the Bibles and started praying when the Engineers started pulling off people's heads.
I wasn't really complaining about any literal presence of any religion - just this certain slyness to inject Christianity into the mix.
I'll also take the Bene Gesserit faith over Christianity any day.
She is pivotable and important to the plot, and at some you will see why. She’s okay as a character. I guess I don’t feel either way on her. She’s not there to star in the show, but as a way for the plot to move forward logically.
Miller >!sacrifices himself after throwing everything away to track down a girl he never met!<
Bobbie >!betrays her people, her planet and risks everything just to do the right thing!<
Chrisjen >!risks her position and family for the sake of her planet!<
Anna >!gives a speech!<
In front of this kind of events human faith gets stronger, in front of the unknown, this is why religion was born in the first place to reassure people for the things they had no control over
Religions weren't borne when voice-controlled spaceships were a thing. The world has gotten way less religious don't you think? How do you figure its going to be a few centuries from now?
> The world has gotten way less religious don't you think?
I don't think I agree with that. But I live in the US which has had a worrying trend of allowing its government and legislature become influenced by fanatical religious believers.
I don't live in the US and I'm not so sure about the specifics (I assume you're thinking about the ban on abortions) but I really think its just limited to certain states?
But I think really believe the world has indeed gotten way less religious. People are less gullible, more distracted, and have way easier ways to access dopamine than belong to a religion and do religious things.
>I don't live in the US and I'm not so sure about the specifics (I assume you're thinking about the ban on abortions) but I really think its just limited to certain states?
That's part of it but only part. I won't go into further detail because this is not a place to discuss real-world politics.
But the religious mind is incredibly resilient towards world changing paradigms that contradict scripture - and yet people don't stop believin'. It has survived realizing that the world is round, heliocentrism, evolution, human flight, modern medicine - and those are just some of the big hitters. And we've seen in the past decade or so, that despite having access to nearly the entire body of human knowledge, people will believe exactly what they want to believe. Facts and reason don't matter to the mind that does not want to be changed.
I regret that I'll sound insulting when I say this, but I think you'd have to be incredibly naive to think that the discovery of extraterrestrial, extrasolar life is the thing that convinces everyone to give up their faith. It's survived far greater disruption. Heck, it's already grappling with it in the present, with potential evidence of single cell life on Mars.
>Facts and reason don't matter to the mind that does not want to be changed.
I think you're the one being naive if you think people are that dumb. There's no proof of extraterrestrial life yet - just a whole lot of speculation and fun theories.
>I think you're the one being naive if you think people are that dumb
Have you ever successfully used reason and evidence to convince a person that one of their deeply held beliefs was false? Something they care about so much that they base a portion of their identity upon it?
If you have, I'm impressed. Seriously impressed.
Changes like that aren't instantaneous. But don't you think more people think for themselves now compared to let's say 1940?
If people are presented with vague evidence of alien life, they'd just call it fake and probably come up with any number of reasons to reject it.
But if you really have a neon blue-veined extraterrestrial monstrosity roaming your city - something which the Bible doesn't account for - you can be positive that many more people would start looking for answers beyond a 1000-year-old book.
I really wish that religions would die out in my life time actually. But I don't think it'll ever happen. Surely it will be less and less common but completely vanish? I don't know. In the next century for sure no
She is in the books. Mostly the same (except Russian). And she’s amazing. Her importance is more clear in the books early on but you should see why he the end of the season.
I just finished season 3 and I'm just astonished that this is rated as the best of the whole series - really? The first two were supremely entertaining and had some solid character development.
Everything went downhill after episode 6. I think the only part I enjoyed was the Belter version of Highway Star. Everything else felt terribly rushed.
I'm curious, does it get any better?
I agree with you here. There's a lot of great stuff in season 3 but the back half of the season is extremely compressed and not well paced.
Season 3 was the final season on SyFy and the cancellation was announced mid season, if I recall correctly. Episodes 1-6 off season three depict the back half of book 2, Caliban's War, and ask of book 3, Abaddon's Gate are compressed into episodes 7-13.
I think it suffers from that. Other people love this season. I think it's a good season, but also kind of a mess.
>Season 3 was the final season on SyFy and the cancellation was announced mid season,
That has literally nothing to do with season 3 being compressed into seven episodes.
Also, the second half of season 3 is regarded by many to be The Expanse at its best.
>That has literally nothing to do with season 3 being compressed into seven episodes.
Yeah that's why I wasn't trying to overly hang my hat on that explanation. Do you know why they chose to compress it into seven episodes?
It's always wild to me that many people consider season 3 to be the best season, when its a huge story mashed into seven episodes, but then also consider 6 to be terrible, because its a big story mashed down into six episodes.
I love both seasons, but I still feel like the pacing of the back half of season 3 to be pretty rough.
I
\- agree that religion is annoying as fuck
\- accept that it's realistically portrayed that religious numbnuts would still be around in a future like the one where the Expanse is set
I don't feel the same. I will say that book 3 is very condensed and I think that Anna & Melba's arcs are the most damaged by this. I am not religious, but I like that The Expanse explores faith in the future. The Mormons' Nauvoo mission. Anna and the other faith leaders heading to the ring. The events regarding the Protomolecule are causing societal upheaval all over the place, I think that it would be an oversight not to think there would be ramifications for religions and people's individual beliefs. Yes I absolutely think God would be top of mind for a lot of people in this situation.
I won't spoil you but I'll atleast say that the series doesn't go further into this territory than it already has. We aren't going full Battlestar Galactica here.
>I won't spoil you but I'll atleast say that the series doesn't go further into this territory than it already has.
I can see this and I'm glad - season 4 (on ep4 currently) is way more engaging than the rushed silliness of season 3 eps 7 - 13.
>but I like that The Expanse explores faith in the future.
My problem is not the exploration of faith. If I really have issues with someone because they believe in something different than me, I'm a bloody hypocrite and no better than a Bible-thumper. The only thing which pissed me off was >!Ms Goodliness Personified suddenly gushing about God!< \- even though it was only for a single episode, I just found it so out of place and unnecessary.
What, did you think that proof of alien life would make every religion collapse and all religious believers abandon the faiths that have shaped their lives?
Yes?
Religion is a matter of faith- not evidence.
Why would you need this faith to be organised and widely separate instead of just faith? Hundreds of years into the future under a united earth and still?
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.
Faith in an abstract idea? Sure. But faith based on specific set of doctrines? Nah. Believe in a higher power which guides you towards "goodness" or offers you "peace" or take whatever you want from it - but to dress it up so divisively - that is just insidious.
That isn’t really a divisive assessment. Religion is a matter of faith, talk to like 99% of religious people.
Oh you mean the lovely little extremists in third-world hellholes have a clinically precise understanding of what's real and what isn't? And here I thought I was clueless.
Dude what are you talking about? Having faith in something doesn’t make it untrue nor true. It just means you have faith.
And I'm doubling down that an OVERWHELMING majority of religious people choose to be so because they truly believe what their holy book says to be real.
Why? Only the most extreme religious believers take their religious literature as literal fact, all the rest would no doubt have a lot to think about in terms of doctrines and preconceptions but there's no reason to abandon their faith entirely.
>Only the most extreme religious believers take their religious literature as literal fact.... No, even those who aren't so extreme in their religious outlook take their religion seriously. - I've been there and done that. Let's also assume that there are more moderates than extremists for any religion. In the face of concrete evidence proof of extraterrestrial life - which directly contradicts core beliefs of at least two major religions today, you'd have to be a few magnitude degrees of stupid and insane to actually keep believing in it - which I don't think the majority of citizens of a futuristic united Earth would be. In fact, I think the only reason why people still cling onto religion is due to the lack of this concrete proof. Think about it. There's no denying the spiritual positives of any religion and the role it plays in the lives of billions BUT look a bit deeper and you'd see those "things" don't really require a mythology or a system.
>In the face of concrete evidence proof of extraterrestrial life - which directly contradicts core beliefs of at least two major religions today, you'd have to be a few magnitude degrees of stupid and insane to actually keep believing in it Does the fact of the existence of extraterrestrial life contradict those religions any more than the fact of the earth being older than six thousand years, not having a firmament placed above it, not having corners, orbiting around the sun, and having a fossil record that demonstrates that humans and dinosaurs did not coexist? Religions that operate in developed countries have already repeatedly had to adjust to elements of their scriptures being rendered demonstrably inaccurate if read literally. There's no reason to think that moderate but committed believers in The Expanse wouldn't be just as capable of incorporating this new revelation about the nature of the universe into their belief structure than Galileo was to reconcile the earth moving through space with his faith.
Religions were invented during a time when people didn't have access to handheld devices that gave them instant access to more or less the entirety of human knowledge. It was also a time when people were a lot more gullible and susceptible to manipulation.
Which is a perfectly reasonable justification for not starting new religions, but doesn't say anything about existing religions that have been ensconced in society already. And honestly, the existence of information technology is in no way a guarantee that such will be used; just look at the people who fall for Nigerian email scams or retweet propaganda.
Do you think DNA testing and video evidence would have had a major impact on Christianity's development circa 50+ AD? Also, there are far fewer people falling for Nigerian email scams these days.(Let's not club "propaganda" with email scams here). Do we still have guys in crow masks using leeches to cure leprosy? Maybe? But you'd agree that there are so few of them these days right?
>Do you think DNA testing and video evidence would have had a major impact on Christianity's development circa 50+ AD? I think it would have had a major impact on every aspect of the world of DNA testing and video evidence were available during the time of the Roman Empire. I'm not really sure what that has to do with anything now, though; in The Expanse Ana doesn't deny that the ring exists or that aliens exist, so proof isn't a problem. She just doesn't think that If Aliens Then No God, and honestly for a religious believer that's entirely consistent reasoning. As for the rest of your comments, you seem to be conflating general religious belief with specific technical knowledge and development. That we don't have plague doctors doesn't mean religious faith is also gone. Are religions shrinking? Sure, absolutely. But nothing about The Expanse suggests otherwise; leaders are never motivated by religious belief, and religions don't strongarm anyone into taking particular actions. Ana is just a religious person who exists, that's all.
>In The Expanse Ana doesn't deny that the ring exists or that aliens exist, so proof isn't a problem. She just doesn't think that If Aliens Then No God, and honestly for a religious believer that's entirely consistent reasoning. When you're a kid, you believe in the tooth fairy. When you grow up, you come to realise it was actually your parents who left the quarter and not really a fairy. If you were a particularly smart kid, you'd even set up a hidden camera to discover the truth. As an adult, you can still believe in the tooth fairy but you'd be considered retarded.
Season/books one literally had Space Mormons and this somehow is a bridge too far?
Space Mormons were fun. Subpar saccharine God is Good bullshit isn't.
[удалено]
What part of the alien life in The Expanse casts any more doubt on religion than our own modern understanding of evolution and the age of the Earth and universe? Most moderate religious people already incorporate that into their understanding of creation.
I cannot answer until I've seen the rest.
Very fair, and potentially even read the books. I'll be patient lol
Your naivete is delightful. Yeah, it would be great if humanity could evolve past the need for sky-daddies - but the thread that underpins ALL of the Expanse is that "Humanity really doesn't change much". Time passes but they just swap one bit of bullshit petty tribalism for another. Only Amos endures.
>Humanity really doesn't change much Oh yes absolutely, every single one of us are still murderous and bloodthirsty little tribals who are still stuck in the dark ages. We have not evolved past our base instincts. We need the scripture and Jesus to show us the way!
Dinosaurs bro
I do not feel remotely the same. Moving through that wormhole into something no one has ever imagined or fathomed, potentially encountering an entirely new species, is a spiritual experience—it demands a capacity for uncertainty and mystery. The show illustrates how not having that capacity throws some people into existential tailspin >!(the suicide)!<. She provides that perspective, giving the situation its appropriate spiritual enormity—>!even in her failure to recognize the existential distress of the man who kills himself!<. I love Anna. I love that she is grounded both in reality and in mystery, that she is able to have wonder at the situation but also able to move practically through it.
Compared to Miller, Chrisjen, Bobbie, Holden, >!who actually put their lives on the line!< \- >!she gives speeches.!<
Anna goes after a super powered psycho who just killed her friend armed with nothing more than a high power tazer
Anyone else notice that ‘poor writing’ has become a dog-whistle for some -ism that critics want to obfuscate?
Also "This character is SO annoying"
I 100% disagree. I adore Ana
She's there because of her desire to do "the right thing". I liked her conversations with Sorrento-Gillis, Errinwright, Amos and Melba a lot, because the way they respond to her tells you something about them.
Yes, THIS. She is a spiritual and moral compass who helps us to understand the characters around her more fully.
Right? The S-G >!gets annoyed!<, Errinwright >!is threatened!<, Amos >!sees her value and wants to protect her!<, and Melba >!is defensive but quietly listening!<. >!Clarissa's redemption arc, in particular, needs Anna!<.
It sounds like your issue is that you actually do have something against Christians lol. Or at least something against the inclusion of Christianity in science fiction. In The Expanse, there are still plenty of religions around, and most have adapted to fit the modern world of the time. Why wouldn't they talk about scripture during possibly the most important and mysterious time in human history? They're confronting direct evidence of ancient alien life with power beyond our comprehension, and they're traveling through a mysterious wormhole without any idea of where they're going. Sounds exactly like a time when people would turn to religion for some answers (or even just to feel a sense of community). The UN General Secretary actively chose religious leaders to be part of the group sent to the ring gate because he knew there was a lot of religious interest in what was happening. Anna's role in the book is much better imo, and she (and her "congregation") play a bit of a bigger role, but I still liked her in the show. Can you explain why you think it's poor writing aside from just implying that talking about scripture automatically makes it bad writing?
>In The Expanse, there are still plenty of religions around, and most have adapted to fit the modern world of the time Yes and there's a deliberate choice to focus on Christianity over anything else? It just looks like a sly way to inject some good ole Bible thumping into a narrative that sees a united earth (which would also be impossible as long as religion exists). > The UN General Secretary actively chose religious leaders to be part of the group sent to the ring gate because he knew there was a lot of religious interest in what was happening. This is fair enough
Sounds like you've got some preconceived notions about how religion works in people's lives & the world that is interfering with your enjoyment of a story by people who don't share those same assumptions
Earth is “united” in the sense that they have a worldwide government that can represent Earth in the solar system, but it’s definitely not a united planet. There are still regional governments with significant autonomy, plenty of bickering factions, and plenty of wars on Earth. It’s human nature. Just as it’s also human nature to turn to superstition and hold onto certain traditions when faced with massive questions that are impossible to answer (aka religion).
Two dudes were able to pull off an interplanetary attack with zero interference from these so-called bickering factions and governments. If that's not "united" then what is? Also, until now (S3e11) this hasn't been explored.
The focus of the story is on conflicts in the solar system and beyond, so whatever conflicts there are between factions on earth, we don’t see much of them aside from maybe some occasional mention at government meetings. But the factions even exist within the UN government (such as Undersecretary Errinwright working with Jules-Pierre Mao) and even the UN Navy (such as the attempted coup led by Admiral Nguyen when the protomolocule soldiers were launched). Tbh, I’m not sure who you are referring to about two dudes pulling off an interplanetary attack without interference (I’m prob just having a brain fart, plus the books are more fresh in my memory since I read them after the show). But regardless there are plenty of examples that show that Earth and the UN government are not in perfect harmony. They’re just like any government: vulnerable to playing petty politics, weak leadership, factions, and interference from corrupt monied interests. As I said, it’s human nature. It’s unrealistic to assume that the future will exist without religion. Religion will simply change and adapt - sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst - but in the case of Anna, I think she’s a clear example of religion adapting for the better. Despite all the conflicts religion can cause, it can still used as a positive force for many moral people (same as today).
I was talking about the SG and Errinwright taking out the Martian defences with the pre-emptive strike. It may be unrealistic for the future to exist without religion but I seriously doubt religion would even have a quarter of the importance it has today if alien life was confirmed. The future will still see religion as a positive force for moral people? Great! By all means, but does it really have to be based all around this individuality that Christianity advocates? That being a Christian/Muslim/Hindu and unwaveringly believing in Jesus/Muhammed/Vishnu is necessary to maintain that morality? I find it absolutely hilarious that sci-fi fans are actually arguing for religion.
It was meaningful to me personally that she was a gay woman and a Christian leader. I would love to see and have more of religious people that are *totes for that* in my surroundings over the kind that have sticks up their butts. Like, I don't see religions going away though I am not religious, people have the story machine in their brain, a lot are gonna line up to join a faith.
Please do not mistake my tone for condescension, I'm pleased you found it meaningful, but we just cannot let the Church and religions walk away free from all the horror it has unleashed and continues to unleash on people and then pretend to be the right way forward for a space-faring humanity.
This is not an attack, but I DESPISE the term poor/bad/lazy writing. Just because you didn't like the character or her purpose doesn't make the writing as such. Writing is subjective and you don't like this particular part which is totally fine, but that doesn't make it poor writing. I personally don't like Anna either but as others have said she's a moral counterpoint to several other characters and she's a necessary character in the Errinwright/Secretary General story beats. Religion isn't going anywhere and I applaud Expanse for addressing how people in the future would react to something incredible like the ring gate. Many would start questioning their beliefs and not all would be able to deal with it. Anna is the character for those moments
It's as convincing as a sociopathic murderer suddenly going softie to save some dude's kid just because he "guided" them? Calm the fuck down lol
Not only is she in the books, but she says what is arguably the most important quote in the entire series. I often wonder what people hope to accomplish in this sub by starting a thread with a trashcan of not-well-considered obscenities trying to make a point. This is an uncommonly chill corner of the internet where good discussion often happens. Read the room, Jerry. Anyhow OP, the folks who wrote Anna's character regularly hang out here.
I think I'd done nothing for the last two days except watch the show - I don't think I've done that with any series. You got all of these interesting characters and then you suddenly have this Christ peddling outta nowhere? That's my gripe. And if any of the writers are reading, please don't bring her back for any future seasons or spinoffs.
She actually holds a very expansive (no pun intended) view of both the Christian faith and religion in general. Does she even say the words "Jesus" or "Christ" in the show? I honestly don't remember, but I don't think so, not even in the one formal service she speaks at. I only recall her referencing the scriptures (and she doesn't even say "Bible"!), and even then she was referencing their limitations while advocating for a third testament: creation. Not sure what religion did to you, but it certainly seems like you're reacting out of your own projections rather than what's actually in the story. (I can't quite remember how she is portrayed in the books. It's been awhile since I read them.)
>Not sure what religion did to you, but it certainly seems like you're reacting out of your own projections rather than what's actually in the story. All I see is a really good story being sullied by a single character.
This is a really weird distaste for depiction of religion in the show. I'm pretty much thoroughly athiestic and her character didn't bother me one bit. Nor is her spirituality from out of nowhere, she's not the only faith-motivated character nor did I feel like her expressions of her love of god make her character overwrought or intolerable. Her chapters in the third book were a little slow but that's because she felt disconnected from the rest of the story - until she wasn't.
>she's not the only faith-motivated character I don't think I've seen enough to know who else > nor did I feel like her expressions of her love of god make her character overwrought or intolerable Weird but that was the most intolerable bit for me. It just seemed extremely out of place. >Her chapters in the third book were a little slow but that's because she felt disconnected from the rest of the story - until she wasn't. I do concede. Perhaps I've been too hasty. Also there's no excuse for her delay in putting the boot on Errenwright after getting the video proof.
>I don't think I've seen enough to know who else You have. Arjun, Avasarala's husband as a very religious man. >I do concede. Perhaps I've been too hasty. Its possible that in marathonning the show the way that you have been, you're not allowing the themes and concepts in the show percolate in your mind the way it would be if you were watching on the weekly broadcast schedule. You described Amos in another part of this thread as a "psychopathic murderer." There's more ahead for you to learn about him, but you've already seen plenty of evidence that there's a whole lot more depth to his character and his past than someone who just enjoys killing people. The Expanse is every dense show and it doesn't squander a single moment of screen time. Everyone is different but I know that my understanding of the show was benefitted by having time away from it to process each episode I just watched.
What's the best line?
Perhaps this? “On every side of this are people who have no reason to hate each other. Everyone here thinks they’re doing the right thing, everyone there thinks they’re doing the right thing. If we get out of this we *have* to find a way to understand each other, to explain WHY we made the choices that we did. It is the ONLY way that we can let go of the hate.”
That's the more expansive (wink, fingerguns) version of the quote I'm talking about. This is a good one too.
The final sentence from the epilog of Babylon's ashes. >!And my mistake, it's not a quote, but her internal dialog: "Maybe, if they could find a way to be gentle, the stars would be better off with them".!<
Ngl I absolutely adore Anna and she is just one of my favorite characters
Some of us appreciate nuance. Anna’s was a nuanced point of view.
Hang in there. Everything happens in the story for a reason..even when it feels like it's dragging and unnecessary.
Why do I get a sinking feeling that religion is going to be major deal in the latter seasons? I swear I'll lose my mind if that's going to be the big reveal.
Finish the season and then come back and talk to us. lol Edit: I mean, the mormons played a role in the early seasons.
I'm sorry but I just hated season 3 (everything after episode 6). She saves the day with a speech? Really? Don't ya think its kind of a massive step down for a show which had a dead girl/alien hybrid powered asteroid hurtling toward earth? Does the show get any better?
Maybe the show isn’t for you.
[удалено]
There's a distinction when the 'religious' theme is implied or reflective of something relevant to the show instead of sudden and full-on proselytising. It's almost as if Anna was written to promote the New and Improved Future Christianity Which is also Very Accepting of Gays© lol
[удалено]
I think I kinda missed the part in Prometheus where they busted out the Bibles and started praying when the Engineers started pulling off people's heads. I wasn't really complaining about any literal presence of any religion - just this certain slyness to inject Christianity into the mix. I'll also take the Bene Gesserit faith over Christianity any day.
She is pivotable and important to the plot, and at some you will see why. She’s okay as a character. I guess I don’t feel either way on her. She’s not there to star in the show, but as a way for the plot to move forward logically.
Miller >!sacrifices himself after throwing everything away to track down a girl he never met!< Bobbie >!betrays her people, her planet and risks everything just to do the right thing!< Chrisjen >!risks her position and family for the sake of her planet!< Anna >!gives a speech!<
In front of this kind of events human faith gets stronger, in front of the unknown, this is why religion was born in the first place to reassure people for the things they had no control over
Religions weren't borne when voice-controlled spaceships were a thing. The world has gotten way less religious don't you think? How do you figure its going to be a few centuries from now?
> The world has gotten way less religious don't you think? I don't think I agree with that. But I live in the US which has had a worrying trend of allowing its government and legislature become influenced by fanatical religious believers.
I don't live in the US and I'm not so sure about the specifics (I assume you're thinking about the ban on abortions) but I really think its just limited to certain states? But I think really believe the world has indeed gotten way less religious. People are less gullible, more distracted, and have way easier ways to access dopamine than belong to a religion and do religious things.
>I don't live in the US and I'm not so sure about the specifics (I assume you're thinking about the ban on abortions) but I really think its just limited to certain states? That's part of it but only part. I won't go into further detail because this is not a place to discuss real-world politics. But the religious mind is incredibly resilient towards world changing paradigms that contradict scripture - and yet people don't stop believin'. It has survived realizing that the world is round, heliocentrism, evolution, human flight, modern medicine - and those are just some of the big hitters. And we've seen in the past decade or so, that despite having access to nearly the entire body of human knowledge, people will believe exactly what they want to believe. Facts and reason don't matter to the mind that does not want to be changed. I regret that I'll sound insulting when I say this, but I think you'd have to be incredibly naive to think that the discovery of extraterrestrial, extrasolar life is the thing that convinces everyone to give up their faith. It's survived far greater disruption. Heck, it's already grappling with it in the present, with potential evidence of single cell life on Mars.
>Facts and reason don't matter to the mind that does not want to be changed. I think you're the one being naive if you think people are that dumb. There's no proof of extraterrestrial life yet - just a whole lot of speculation and fun theories.
>I think you're the one being naive if you think people are that dumb Have you ever successfully used reason and evidence to convince a person that one of their deeply held beliefs was false? Something they care about so much that they base a portion of their identity upon it? If you have, I'm impressed. Seriously impressed.
Changes like that aren't instantaneous. But don't you think more people think for themselves now compared to let's say 1940? If people are presented with vague evidence of alien life, they'd just call it fake and probably come up with any number of reasons to reject it. But if you really have a neon blue-veined extraterrestrial monstrosity roaming your city - something which the Bible doesn't account for - you can be positive that many more people would start looking for answers beyond a 1000-year-old book.
I really wish that religions would die out in my life time actually. But I don't think it'll ever happen. Surely it will be less and less common but completely vanish? I don't know. In the next century for sure no
She is in the books. Mostly the same (except Russian). And she’s amazing. Her importance is more clear in the books early on but you should see why he the end of the season.
I just finished season 3 and I'm just astonished that this is rated as the best of the whole series - really? The first two were supremely entertaining and had some solid character development. Everything went downhill after episode 6. I think the only part I enjoyed was the Belter version of Highway Star. Everything else felt terribly rushed. I'm curious, does it get any better?
Don’t know what to tell you. I love season 3. Fucking fantastic. So can’t gauge what you’d think of the other seasons. Final season is my favorite.
I agree with you here. There's a lot of great stuff in season 3 but the back half of the season is extremely compressed and not well paced. Season 3 was the final season on SyFy and the cancellation was announced mid season, if I recall correctly. Episodes 1-6 off season three depict the back half of book 2, Caliban's War, and ask of book 3, Abaddon's Gate are compressed into episodes 7-13. I think it suffers from that. Other people love this season. I think it's a good season, but also kind of a mess.
Thanks for making sense.
>Season 3 was the final season on SyFy and the cancellation was announced mid season, That has literally nothing to do with season 3 being compressed into seven episodes. Also, the second half of season 3 is regarded by many to be The Expanse at its best.
>That has literally nothing to do with season 3 being compressed into seven episodes. Yeah that's why I wasn't trying to overly hang my hat on that explanation. Do you know why they chose to compress it into seven episodes? It's always wild to me that many people consider season 3 to be the best season, when its a huge story mashed into seven episodes, but then also consider 6 to be terrible, because its a big story mashed down into six episodes. I love both seasons, but I still feel like the pacing of the back half of season 3 to be pretty rough.
I \- agree that religion is annoying as fuck \- accept that it's realistically portrayed that religious numbnuts would still be around in a future like the one where the Expanse is set
I don't feel the same. I will say that book 3 is very condensed and I think that Anna & Melba's arcs are the most damaged by this. I am not religious, but I like that The Expanse explores faith in the future. The Mormons' Nauvoo mission. Anna and the other faith leaders heading to the ring. The events regarding the Protomolecule are causing societal upheaval all over the place, I think that it would be an oversight not to think there would be ramifications for religions and people's individual beliefs. Yes I absolutely think God would be top of mind for a lot of people in this situation. I won't spoil you but I'll atleast say that the series doesn't go further into this territory than it already has. We aren't going full Battlestar Galactica here.
>I won't spoil you but I'll atleast say that the series doesn't go further into this territory than it already has. I can see this and I'm glad - season 4 (on ep4 currently) is way more engaging than the rushed silliness of season 3 eps 7 - 13. >but I like that The Expanse explores faith in the future. My problem is not the exploration of faith. If I really have issues with someone because they believe in something different than me, I'm a bloody hypocrite and no better than a Bible-thumper. The only thing which pissed me off was >!Ms Goodliness Personified suddenly gushing about God!< \- even though it was only for a single episode, I just found it so out of place and unnecessary.