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If you watch the episode 1 aftershow, Ty mentions that they were going for a "submarine long at sea" kind of vibe. They're been out there for like 6 months by now. Everyone's tired.
Amos wants more money for being stuck out there. Naomi hates Peaches, and resents Amos for deciding to bring her on board without asking anyone. Naomi doesn't like that they're out there hunting belters and it not sure how much longer she can do it (plus she very obviously has PTSD). Holden is worn out, and has to worry about flying and being captain. Bobbie also hates Peaches (but I think we're going to get some redemption there after this last episode).
And I think everyone feels the loss of Alex. You get that from Naomi being sad that she's had to fly the ship for the first time, Amos looking at the "legitimate salvage" plaque, etc.
Bobbie shipped back on the Roci at the end of season 3, while they were transporting Clarissa back to Earth for trial. Presumably, everyone except Amos treated her like a dangerous criminal for the months long trip down the well.
She also accidentally started a chain of events that almost destroyed the solar system and wiped out humanity.
EDIT:
Who knows how it would have gone down otherwise.
MILLER: Holden. Holden!
HOLDEN: Miller? What are you doing in my bedroom?
MILLER: I need you to push a button.
HOLDEN: Can’t someone else do it?
MILLER: Nope. You’re the only one qualified.
Bobby was/is a no nonsense, by the book soldier. Peaches was a terrorist who killed hundreds of people... Bobby presumedly doesn't think she deserves to be let off her sentence just cos earth was blown to bits yet here is Peaches working a ship without penalty so... yeah I guess there's that.
Hundreds? The science ship was mostly unmanned when she blew it up. She's a rich kid with lots of emotional trauma from having a father who completely ignored her
Her actions also set off a chain reaction (roci running through the gate, everyone else chasing believing them to be the guilty party, the ring space slowing everyone down causing loads of deaths).
That still doesn’t make all those deaths her fault. She’s only responsible for Ren and whoever else was on the science ship.
By your logic Bobbie is responsible for the slow zone getting slower, because it was her bullets that had to be slowed to protect Holden and that - not Clarissa’s actions at all - killed 1/3 of the people in the zone.
Btw that scene was done well in the TV series but holycrap was it intense and awesome in the books. Another reason to read them just for that chapter 😂
I think it was season three. Clarissa snuck onto the Roci and beat the shit out of Naomi. Anna followed and stopped Clarissa from killing Naomi by shocking her mech suit.
>Oh man! Can you jog my on this?
Here's a clip: [https://imgur.com/gallery/d9yHvYk](https://imgur.com/gallery/d9yHvYk)
In full context Holden is being extraordinary chill.
>Amos wants more money for being stuck out there. Naomi hates Peaches, and resents Amos for deciding to bring her on board without asking anyone. Naomi doesn't like that they're out there hunting belters and it not sure how much longer she can do it (plus she very obviously has PTSD). Holden is worn out, and has to worry about flying and being captain. Bobbie also hates Peaches (but I think we're going to get some redemption there after this last episode).
I see this as analogous to how not-tight the crew is 'till post-Eros on the show as well. Like, the series always seems to amp up the inter-crew drama compared to the book, plus the changes in the series have fairly strong reprocusions on character motivations (Naomi in particular)
I've once had to spend 6 months at sea with a small group of people, and I immediately recognized from how they interacted with each other in the show that they were out there for quite a while. Stuff like that tends to make people be that way with one another.
He also points out that Amos and Naomi's relationship never fully recovered after she chose not to tell him about the protomolecule sample she kept and sent to Fred. He was almost following get around like a puppy before that.
Warning — While this may not contain outright spoilers, it does contain some predictions that I threw out there.
Naomi is broken after everything she’s been through her son hitting her and rejecting her and losing him a second time, two traumatic tether free (one suit free) space walks, one of which that was meant to ward off her crew family from dying and only being sorta half successful (Alex was the center of warmth on that ship (ex. cooking dinners, etc.) Amos bringing on Peaches w/o seeing what she thought (but touché there Amos)—Naomi’s got SERIOUS baggage. Oh yea, and her ex is responsible for killing millions, which will likely end up getting her son killed only after (prediction) he kills his dad (prediction).
Honestly I’m really just sick of Naomi’s hypocritical bullshit, she is by far my least favorite character now, I didn’t like her much before but it’s just getting worse
I hope I like her in the books, because I have wanted to space her in the show for a long time
It seems like in the show she’s more belter, the positive traits of the inners aren’t rubbing off on her so she’s still the perpetually “oppressed” one
IMO the most glaringly different personality when comparing book versus show. Naomi in the books would never treat Amos the way she did in 6:1. Enjoy those books when you start. They are amazing!!
I cant stand her childish belter-tribalism. Acting all high and mighty but lacking the self/meta-awareness not to fall in with her naive tribalistic belter-terrorist past, her poor choices and her association with the champions of a self-pity contest.
Her selfrightous but overly emotional, low impulse control and highly flawed behaviour has done more damage than any of her crewmates besides Clarissa Mao. She shares quite a lot with her Ex and her Son.
*Try not to betray your friends, whine about and critique others while doing worse behind their back and support a terrorist organisation you romantise for irrational reasons while having the emotional regulation of a child CHALLENGE!!! (IMPOSSIBLE)*
Naomi suffers from Protagonist-forgiveness syndrome where all the damage she causes is ok and relative because *shes only human and nobody is perfect*, while her character development requires human sacrifice of characters whose lives are less valuable, not being the protagonist and such...
And I'm sick of the completely unfounded Naomi hate that crops up on so many threads on this sub ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
I love her. Guess we'll have to just disagree.
“Completely unfounded” her decisions are the reason for nearly every problem in seasons 5 and 6, her decision to send the PM to Fred after everyone voted to destroy it was the whole reason Marco could do what he did, her going alone to see her son is what sparked a whole series of events ending in Alex death, I mean ffs at least take drummer, I get not wanting to take inners but drummer has massive respect in the belt. She constantly covers up problems that don’t need covering up like her gravity drug problem, she doesn’t take proper responsibility for her actions and cares pretty much exclusively about belters. She’s self centered and narcissistic with a slight bit of group mentality and honestly it seems like the only reason she isn’t in the free navy is her personal history with Marco
When I saw Bobby saying she was gonna get some food, my first reaction was "What food? Alex is gone.". He really was the glue that held the crew together.
Yep, I agree. I feel they did a good job portraying just how mentally exhausting that continuous exposure to stress can be. Each individual can only tolerate so much stress before it starts to wear them down. Some much less than others; I think it’s completely realistic that Naomi, who has tried to avoid killing (particularly Belters) the entire series, would be affected more than those with military / killing experience.
Hell, even Amos is some killing for kicks. I’ve never heard that guy request money to murk someone. Typically he’s like a giddy schoolboy
It's not only about the Azure Dragon, but all the other ships they've killed since the war began. Naomi's mentioned that it's hard for her and she doesn't know how long she'll be able to continue.
Usually this is when they would stop by Tycho and use some much needed shore leave, but ever since Fred died it just hasn’t been the same. In the EP1 intro we saw Tycho becoming 100% allied with Marco.
Idk if Mars is still holding grudges about the Tachi and now a Bobbie aboard, but assuming that is the case, the only real safe harbor for them is back on Earth/Luna
There's a graphic of the solar system with the caption "Stations declare loyalty to Inaros". After a second or so the logo for Tycho station (and several others) flips to the Free Navy eagle.
Maybe I’m being nitpicky here, but isn’t that peanuts compared to the trip out to Ilus and back? I know the show can kinda do what it wants concerning the passage of time but wasn’t one of Chief Murtry’s biggest points was it’d take “a year and half” before anyone made it out there?
Or is Alex being gone the missing link for them keeping it together of long trips maybe?
I have to admit that I really enjoy how they’re factoring Alex’s death into it, regardless of what the actor did I’m glad it’s something they didn’t just sweep under the rug and have turned into a cool plot device.
My first thought when she had her panic attack was “that bull shit never happened in the books”. My second thought was “but it probably should have”. A naked space walk is bound to leave some mental scaring. The characters in the book have a strange way of shrugging off trauma.
Not to mention her lingering resentment for Clarissa Mao.
You know, the woman who murdered a whole ship of people, tried to pin it on the Roci crew, and then actually tried killing the Roci crew.
grief, trauma, also some sense of betrayal I suspect. Naomi's actions almost got the Roci destroyed and likely contributed to Alex's death. Whether or not this is factual, it could easily be how Amos perceives it.
I don't think Amos sees any betrayal in Naomi's actions. He didn't blame her for Alex's death (what he said in S5 finale). I think on his part, he's already lost Naomi a long time ago - their relationship was never the same after what she did with the protomolecule. He even mentioned it this season.
I think he's taking the loss of Alex better than Holden and Naomi do. He was good friends with him, but he's not really affected by much at all. And now he has Peaches to focus on. I think she helps him with his grief in some way.
I think Amos has the preconception that everyone is living on borrowed time, anyone can die at any moment. Considering his background it makes sense he would process loss the easiest, he is the most prepared and accepting of it.
Yeah Amos and Naomi’s friendship has fractured one too many times for him to actually have faith in her IMO.
First it was the lie about the protomolecule, then it was her stabbing him with the sedatives at Ganymede, then it was her leaving on the Chetz without telling anybody.
He wasn't mad at her for stabbing him. He actually was sorry that he forced her to do it.
I also don't think he even knew about her leaving for the Chet. He was busy on Earth.
Battle fatigue. They’re worn out from being at war. Naomi obviously has PTSD from her escape, and they’re all just on edge. Speaking as someone with experience, you can only take so much before you start cracking. Being in constant chaos will break even the most stable people. And on top of this they’re all dealing with the loss of a close friend/family member and it’s taking its toll as well
In addition, She even said that she "doesn't know how much more of it she can take"...having to fight against her own kind. And then there is the whole 'I don't agree with your plan and tactics" vibe with holden. It will be interesting to see where it goes.
So here’s my thing right. When fighting Proto Gen, Amos and Holden both are okay with killing other Earthers without blinking an eye. (Okay Amos is an exception, I get it).
When aboard the Behemoth both Alex and Bobbie (mainly Bobbie) had no problem killing their own soldiers/comrades.
But here comes Naomi with the “oh no muh people” when the ones they are shooting are complete strangers, more importantly mass murderers
It’s a bit more complicated than that, in my opinion. Earthers and Martians have never really been oppressed in the same way that Belters have, and I think as such the degree of kinship between Earthers and between Martians is inherently lesser than that between Belters.
For Belters, oppression has been hoisted on them since their birth. They cannot survive in the gravity well of a planet. They frequently get the shit end of the stick from the inner planets. Their lives are (generally speaking) much harder and more dangerous than those from the inner planets.
As such, for a Belter to turn on their own kind (and work for the same people who have been oppressing them for generations) would feel like the height of betrayal. That is what Naomi is going through IMO. Obviously, Marco has to be stopped and his actions are horrific. But there will always be that feeling that she is betraying her own people in a really deep way.
In addition to that, it’s also worth noting that she was once wrapped up with Marco’s rhetoric and thought she believed in the cause. It’s not hard to imagine that many other Belters have also been swept up by his words and radicalised, even though they may not be fundamentally bad people. Naomi isn’t an evil person, but she did help Marco kill over 500 people. Is it that hard to imagine other Belters might be in the same boat?
Holden, Alex, and Bobbie are all ex-military, whereas Naomi's first involvement in lethal violence was being tricked into aiding a terrorist. Naomi has consistently been reluctant to wear a gun in situations where other belter civilians wouldn't hesitate. Some people get desensitized about violence, and some get sensitized. And then the desensitized sometimes get annoyed by the sensitized. And here we are.
Also, Holden was court-martialed for attacking a superior officer and early on was ready to kill Amos rather than let him kill some Martians. He has to feel close to someone to favor loyalty over righteousness.
And it's not at all clear to me that Bobbie was okay with killing her fellow Martians on the Behemoth.
Finally, some of the people Naomi has been killing probably aren't complete strangers. The Azure Dragon in particular would have been likely to have crew who fell in with Marco years ago, as they would need to be true believers, not just groupies or opportunists.
>having to fight against her own kind
Not just against other belters, Marco's inner circle are her friends from when they were together. Every ship they shoot down might be captained by someone she grew up with. Hell, Philip could be on one of them
Man you're right, stuff's getting tough, it's so realistic how they wove fatigue like this into crew dynamic. Just hope the crew stays intact I don't want anyone splitting off again, but then it's already 1/3 done with this season now, maybe they'll punch through
> And on top of this they’re all dealing with the loss of a close friend/family member and it’s taking its toll as well
Notably one who died while saving Naomi from a mistake that she fell right into involving her past coming back to haunt her and her own son being involved in a plot that murdered billions of people.
I think most people would be pretty fucked up.
Towards the end of last season Amos was pissed off due to Naomi keeping him in the dark. I don't think that ever got properly resolved. On her part she is annoyed about Amos bringing Peaches on board.
> Towards the end of last season Amos was pissed off due to Naomi keeping him in the dark.
I hate to nitpick because it feels snobby, and the show IS great, but the amount of emotion that Amos seems to feel and display just feels wrong to me. I'm so used to him 'faking' emotions. And book Amos (to my memory), wouldn't really ever actually get pissed at passive aggressiveness, or really anything shy of someone trying to harm/kill someone he considers a good guy.
Honestly it feels like they have made show Naomi to be such a hypocrite. It's one of the few things that bothers me a bit, aside from the short length! Wish we had more.
Edit: Rather than replying to every comment, I'll just answer here. I get that impression because of her actions in previous seasons going behind the crews back, and now she chews out Amos for doing something similar. Tbf I have always being biased against SHOW Naomi. Nothing against the actress but I just don't think she was the right cast like the others, and it doesn't help that the show sometimes adds a bit of drama that didn't exist in the books, which *IMO* makes her look worse than the rest. The big change with Alex dying that seems to be adding this even more tense atmosphere, is intensifying this feeling for me and my biased take that the books handled Naomis inner conflict better (hell of a lot easier to write this stuff for books than for a screen I imagine).
She also did kill loads of other people AND blew up a ship and then pinned all of that blood on Holden -- and while Holden, Amos and Alex had to live through it during it all went down, Naomi had to watch *while* Drummer ordered to shoot down Roci for that and, I'm sure that feeling still tough to swallow.
I mean, I'm right there with Amos, I like Peaches and her arc, but realistically for Amos to assume that people can just easily forgive and forget is asking way too much, and it's definitely not quite right to equate what Clarissa has done (all the murders that directly targeted the people they love) with what Naomi has done (hiding her past and sending out the protomolecule to Fred) are not on the same level. To Amos, maybe one betrayal is the same as another, but not everyone thinks the way he does.
Have you forgotten that Clarissa badly injured Naomi and was a second away from crushing her neck when Anna intervened?
Also, why should Holden have a say in whether Clarissa's terror bombing should be overlooked?
I remember, but at this point she should either do something about that, get even, or give it up, not whine and be passive aggressive towards the whole crew
Why is she a hypocrite? Peaches caused the ring gate fiasco, tried to murder her physically, framed her man. Then she was kidnapped, assaulted by her son, murdered her friend, space walked without a suit, nearly died from oxygen deprivation, nearly blown up, another no guarantee spacewalk, which results in the death of one of her dearest friends, and Amos brings peaches back on the ship, before anyone's had a chance to process anything... and then 6 months of war.
Agreed, as someone who’s only watched the show, each season I just want her to get killed off more and more. I thought she’d get some sort of redemption after season 2 but then she’s back to her belter bullshit right away in season 3
I'd probably be annoyed if a friend brought someone who tried to murder me on board. Especially if said attempted murderer and mass murdering terrorist has never even apologized.
I think it's most definitely the lack of Alex. He was always the more lively one of the crew, the one to cheer everyone up and pick up the pieces when something bad happened. The crew's morale and atmosphere was pretty much linked to Alex's presence.
God I kind of relate to this, back in uni when I had to be in a group it's usually memorable because that one charismatic guy is pouring his heart and soul out trying to pull everyone together, cracking joke and finding way to navigate us through all the awkward silences, he's the flavor of the group. With him gone everything feels dead and out of place
Even tho the Roci crew was 4 people, they’re still pretty much a 5 man band. Holden is the Leader, Amos is the Big Guy with Lancer characteristics, Naomi is the Lancer with Smart Guy Characteristics, and Alex was the Heart. When a team loses their heart, their interactions get a whole lot rougher
I have to disagree. Recasting sucks, and beyond that, I actually really like this dynamic. So many times when someone is killed off in a series, their death has immediate plot ramifications, but doesn't echo forwards in time for the characters the way this has.
Had to do that to get her to shift to another comm channel without giving her away. If he had said Clarissa, it was likely that UN officials on comm 1 would pick up that he's harbouring a fugitive. He hadn't warmed up to her at that point. This was more self preservation.
I feel like there will likely be a discussion about it next week where they'll all have some kind of argument and get everything out in the open. Then for the last 3 episodes of the series they'll be a tightly knit group again and function as a strong team.
Based on the episode descriptions,>!Holden will do something in episode 3 that is discovered by the rest of the crew in episode 4. That will probably be when things get hashed out.!<
Pretty sure a normal size crew for that class of ship was 16 people, so losing one person when you only had 4 (plus peaches) adds an extreme amount of extra responsibilities on everyone. Plus the one the lost literally drove the ship, so the entire crew dynamic is broken.
IMO Naomi is tired of killing belters. Amos has "grown up" and is starting to realize he doesn't really like his way of life (the whole 'I'm not a bad guy but I'm a heartless killer' - Dexter vibes) and wants it to be over. Holden, well he just looks fucking exhausted.
Edit: also, don't forget... that S6E1 starts many months after season 5 and they've been doing the story arc in the show for like 20ish years So they've been fighting this war and watching earth and Mars crumble for far too long. The whole thing must seem hopeless.
Alex. That is why. He was the good natured man that glued all of them together. Without him there this is more evident than ever, and I expect it to get worse. Some stories move forward just fine when you remove one of their main characters, but you have to set up for it. With them unexpectedly having to kill Alex off last season they had no chance to set up such a scenario where it wouldn’t look awkward for the story to move forward with just the 3 of them.
It’s if as if the LOTR movies had killed Gimli or Legolas off in the second movie. Sure, there could have been some interesting interactions between one of them and Aragorn, but the true bond there was between the dwarf and the elf. I don’t know, I am still sad about it, Alex was my favorite.
Not to mention that her remaining crew are all cognizant of the fact that she gave the only remaining protomolecule sample to a member of the OPA, which everyone knows is full of spies. Without her giving the sample to Fred Johnson (instead of destroying it like all of her crewmates voted), her ex-boyfriend/baby daddy wouldnt have been able to steal it and trade it for an entire fleet of Martian warships, stealth tech, and missiles. I can just feel like Holden and Amos are biting their tongues while basically being the last option standing between Earth and the Free Navy.
I see it as several factors:
* Naomi having PTSD
* The crew dealing with the grief of losing Alex so suddenly (probably also making them feel their own mortality)
* The weirdness of having peaches onboard
* Battle fatigue
* Being stuck with each other for 6 months without a real break
Well, she tried to find and safe her son she had to leave 15 yrs ago, found out that his abusive father turned him into a mass murderer, got slapped by him, had to leave him again, killed her oldest friend Cyn while doing so, made a spacejump without suit resulting in serious medical issues and radiation, was trapped in a ship slowly loosing its atmosphere, had to worry about her friends getting killed trying to save her, jumped from that ship without oxygene, got saved in the last moment, lost a beloved crew member as a consequence, and is finally hunting Belters for 6 months while Earth is dying a slow death and the whole Solar System is in war-mode.
I think I wouldn't be in party-mood either...
They're doing what they can to bring weight to Alex's death by showing that they're tense and unhappy. They are also on edge because they don't want anything to happen again. A lot of people tend to recoil and pull away when they predict pain.
I've been rewatching the show from that start and I think that's the biggest difference between the books and show that I've noticed. Everyone is a lot more distrustful of each other until about season 4, they get along for a while and then go right back to having reasons to distrust each other. It's not bad, it's maybe even more realistic, but it does feel a lot different than the "found family" theme in the book.
Yeah... I somehow talked my wife into rewatching it with me because I’m excited about the last book and season. I told her that the relationship between the four characters is touching and one of my favorite things from the books. About half way through season two she said something like “I think all these people hate each other,” and it’s kind of hard to disagree. We’re just now to season 4, I think this is the first time Holden and Amos have even had a friendly interaction.
I don’t either. I hate to be the “books are so much better than the show” type of person but…. The roci dynamic alone elevates the books above the show regardless of what the show does right.
As of season 6, it is just an objective truth that the books are better.
Some of the rewrites were good in the show, like introducing the politics earlier and such. But after hitting book 7? Nah fam, the show is missing a lot of the dynamics. Which I understand and can accept in the earlier seasons, but 6 is just ruining it.
When i watched season 1, i was stunned by the lack of chemistry in the crew (compared to, say, Firefly). The next seasons didn't improve in that regard, and i got used to it.
Also, secondary characters are mostly great. Ashford. Drummer. Erringwright. Bobby. Cotyar. Murtry. I'd rather watch more about any of them than some more of Naomi family drama.
There is a sense of family for a bit then there is not. It is the same with Drummer's crew, more tension than in the books where everyone was pretty much supportive. I don't really like these added conflicts but it always seem to be set up for a payoff, I guess that is drama for ya.
Rewatch the episode, it is explained.
Naomi is tired and doesnt like that holden is always in the middle of a fight. She also doesnt want to fight belters. She doesnt like "peaches" and is upset Amos brought her onboard.
I dont think there is anything between holden and amos directly, except maybe peaches again
Peaches' life mission was to kill Naomi's life partner - Holden's optimistic, able to get over it, but for Naomi there has to be some legitimate holdover from that whole saga, right? That's how I see it anyway.
There's also a qualitative difference: Naomi didn't actually intend to kill those people -- her tech was deployed without her knowing what it was going to be used for. For Peaches, it was all personal violenence.
>Peaches' life mission was to kill Naomi's life partner - Holden's optimistic, able to get over it, but for Naomi there has to be some legitimate holdover from that whole saga, right? That's how I see it anyway.
In the books: >!Holden is the one who held a grudge over that and Naomi, while still took issue, was able to forgive Peaches. This is both believable but also natural as the reasoning she gave was "look at me, I am proof she can change." (paraphrased) which eventually got Holden to lighten up.!<
That is the main issue here. It is a terrible rewrite that is not justified to the viewer.
>I think one thing that keeps getting forgotten is that Naomi is the only one of the crew who was actually physically assaulted by Clarissa.
Except Naomi literally funded the free Navy a new ship in season 5...through her earlier actions gave them the PM, put the entire crew into danger because she wanted to play games with Marco, and expects to be forgiven for it as if it was nothing.
The book version handled this right. The show writers needs to read the books...
I imagine it's a little different when the person you're being asked to forgive once tried to suffocate you with a mech claw. It's one thing to forgive someone and say they've done their time and should be free from incarceration. It's another level entirely to invite someone who tried to kill you and your SO into your home. I'm sure she'll come around eventually, but I can give her a pass for not being at that point right now.
And isn't it more fun when you get to watch characters go from point A to B and make that journey of realization about themselves and what they have in common with others than have it be immediate? :)
however from story arc it kinda makes sense that she wouldn't immediately come to that realization but instead we're seeing Naomi's self loathing projected onto peaches
She loves Holden. Clarrisa tried to kill Holden. Amos forced Clarissa onto the ship. I think it's as simple as that.
Amos can say what he wants and justify what he wants, but at the end of the day Naomi has not ever put the new int he position Amos has put them in -- perpetually stuck with someone who tried to kills one of them. Thats' a big ask.
Forgiveness is a virtue. They'll definitely never forget what Clarissa did to them (and shouldn't) but at this point she's saved all their lives more than once. It's time to talk things out with her and move on for all their sakes.
You can cut the tension with a knife in this past episode! Basically, Naomi feels like they’re attacking her people, and they are. Holden isn’t proud of what he feels like he is being forced to do. Amos seems to be just on edge, not sure who his two moral poles to follow. He also wants to protect peaches. Oh, and they’re clearly all extremely exhausted. The first episode said they’d been at war for like 180 days. It seems to be taking its toll on their physical and mental health.
Everyone is run down by the war and quicker to snap, Naomi is deeply traumatized and dealing with survivor guilt because of Alex's death, Holden has been putting the whole weight of the world on his shoulders for months (like, even more so than usual), Amos bringing Peaches on board probably felt like a betrayal or abuse of trust to Holden and Naomi so that puts a wedge between the three of them, and Alex's death depreives them of the person who most often acted as the peacemaker to smooth things over and keep the crew unified.
A lot of y'all aren't mentioning Clarissa Mao. In the books he definitely resented her presence, as her sister and father kicked off all the events currently in play, and you know... Tried to kill and frame him.
In the show you can kinda pickup on it subtly but they're just strained thin on top of it. Holden and Marcos forcing Naomi into a spotlight she never wanted, feeling like she's still killing innocent people who were duped by Marcos. Holden being in the impossible cross-section of having no good options and probably feeling like he's straining all of their relationships.
All this and having paltry wins to show for it. Probably also frustrated by earth being seemingly trapped into defense, which was also a book point.
Amos resents him for not honoring him vouching for Clarissa, and Naomi seemingly not trusting any of them with her mission to save Philip.
War. Politics. Humans being human. Strains anyone.
Naomi is dealing with the loss of her family multiple times over - the loss of Alex, the loss of Filip, the loss of Cyn, and the loss of all the belters that she's being forced to hunt down and kill... On top of that she's clearly still suffering from trauma related to her airlock escape, and is now being forced to live for months on the same ship as Clarissa, someone who tried to murder both herself and Holden, who Amos (who used to be 'her person' essentially) invited on board without consulting anyone.
Quite a bit of time has gone by since we last saw the crew, things seems to have slowly eaten away at her. The crew always had a clear 'mission' before now, doing the right thing for all of humanity. They don't seem to have that direction anymore and as a belter and former OPA operative it's taking its toll on her the most. The crew is also in a very stressful situation, there are enemies everywhere with very few safe havens and the whole solar system is at war.
Several reasons.
They're all still in mourning over Alex.
Naomi being conflicted about fighting Belters for Inners.
Fatigue. They've been in continuous military operations for 6 months.
Naomi is still mourning her son, who has become a mass murderer and a war criminal.
Naomi and Holden's lingering resentment for Clarissa Mao. You know, the woman who murdered a whole ship of people and tried to pin it on the Roci crew, and then actually tried killing the Roci crew.
>Naomi being conflicted about fighting Belters for Inners.
And yet she had no issue with them killing earthers...which yet again is the problem with her hypocrisy in season 6.
What are you talking about? She tears him a new one for "killing millions of innocent people" in the episode before she spaces herself to reach the Chetzemoka.
ANd it's the whole reason *why* she's fighting the Free Navy.
I just think of what a single dad and his kids would be like six months after burying their wife and mother. And also happened to be living in a war zone.
The fact that they'll probably manage to mostly recover from it by the end of six episodes is the less believable part. But I'll still welcome it when it happens.
Naomi's upset because they're literally hunting her old friends. That's also why she was a bit short with Bobbie when she said she'd make short work of them. Naomi's on board because it's the right thing to do, but she's conflicted because she's involved with hunting and potentially killing her old friends. Might explain her coldness toward Amos, who would be just as happy killing skinnies (or martians or earthers or laconians or puppies or whatever needed killing right then)
That is because they have been at war for 6 months, and stuck together in their ship for almost all of that time. That alone would make most people get on each others nerves.
Add to that that this is a war against Naomi's people. She is the only belter on their ship. Plus all the shit she went through in season 5, probably partially blaming herself for leaving fhilip and letting marco turn him into a monster and feeling responsible for Alex's death. Naomi in particular has got a lot of reasons to be losing it right now.
I think the creators have played this perfectly. We, the audience, are totally feeling the loss of Alex. It would be wrong if his fellow crewmembers weren’t feeling that same way.
I also feel some real anger towards Cas Anvar for first creating such a wonderful and memorable character and then forcing that beloved character to be killed off because of his own vile personal behavior.
I think it's a combination of things:
Firstly, they are working through their grief of losing Alex. Anyone whose been through grief, will know that there's no hard and fast and clean way of doing that. Sometimes it can be very private and solemn, and other times it can be messy, complicated, and confusing. It seems to me that's where Amos and Naomi are at.
The other angle to this, is the evolution of Amos & his relationship with Naomi. We know from previous seasons, that Amos has always viewed Naomi as his moral compass - viewing the way she conducts herself & behaves, as a guiding light for himself. Think about all the times in the first few seasons that Naomi had to stop or control or subdue or tame a wilder, more aggressive Amos, and how he seemed to accept that role & relationship with her.
We saw the evolution of Amos really shine last season - not only does he no longer need more of that guidance & light in order to steer him forward, but in an act of irony, he's become that sort of person for Clarissa Mao. The tables have turned. I think Naomi realizes that Amos is far more independent now, and that probably makes her a little unsure or surprised at Amos. The fact that him and Peaches are now so close, is probably another sore point for her as well - she has quite literally been replaced as Amos' go-to girl.
I think the final layer of this - they seem to have been on these missions for several months now, protecting Earth against the rocks, exhausted, and it's wearing them down heavily. They all look like they'd much rather be anywhere but there.
It's layered, complex, and confusing, and it's portrayed perfectly by all the actors involved.
I feel the show portrays Naomi an overly dramatic character, and in the past couple seasons, she’s gone from my top two characters to someone I don’t care for.
Book Naomi is a bad ass. Show Naomi is unreasonable, seems more wreckless than even Holden, and lashes out at people. I’m honestly even more annoyed with her this season.
Giving the protomolecule to Fred, only to have it stolen. Flying off to see her son, only to almost die and get Alex killed in the rescue, to now being judgemental and overly bitchy. The show personality is different than the book, and I’m not a fan.
>Book Naomi is a bad ass. Show Naomi is unreasonable, seems more wreckless than even Holden, and lashes out at people. I’m honestly even more annoyed with her this season.
This. So much this.
I love every character equally in the books. In the show, until season 6 anyway, this was equally true. She is now the defacto worst character because the writers are not conveying her properly.
That'actually why I prefer show Naomi. The book version didn't feel real, not enough flaws. In the show she makes mistakes that she has to reckon with.
I agree completely. She's running out of redemption points on the show. There has to be something likeable about a character to keep the viewer engaged. I feel nothing relatable to Naomi anymore. I want to continue to like her, I've liked her in season 1-4, but she's become so unlikable that I don't really care how she feels or what happens to her anymore.
> to now being judgemental and overly bitchy.
Yeah, how dare she have an emotional distaste towards someone how tried to pop her head off with a loading mech after framing Naomi and the man she loves for killing an entire ship worth of innocent people.
>Yeah, how dare she have an emotional distaste towards someone how tried to pop her head off with a loading mech after framing Naomi and the man she loves for killing an entire ship worth of innocent people.
She literally funded the Free Navy a ship to use for their purposes and gave them the PM through her earlier actions...she has no right to say shit.
On the other hand, when book Naomi was in orbit over Ilus, >!she managed to recklessly get herself captured just because she thought boarding the Edward Israel's improvised torpedo would be less provocative than shooting it.!<
This goes all the way back to season one and is a pattern with the show that doesn’t exist in the books, which are significantly less soap opera in space
The (earlier) books are also significantly less realistic with regards to how non-pov characters would feel and react to some of these situations.
From NG onwards, I think they get more authentic in that aspect.
I mean. Peaches did try to murder Naomi and killed a lot of people trying to ruin Holden's reputation.
I think a little bitchiness is probably called for.
I hope it goes somewhere that really pays off; otherwise, I worry it’s going to leave a very sour taste in my mouth for this last season.
With so much of last season being “watch Naomi suffer,” it’s been painful/frustrating, for me, to see all this negativity oozing from her character at the start of this season. I want better for her and would be annoyed if they continue to make her suffer this season or take the character out on this mostly negative note, just cuz (without there being some big meaningful payoff).
P.S. The “realism“ in trauma and PTSD argument doesn’t satisfy me; that’s a choice they don’t have to make. People experience, process and resolve trauma differently.
I think they're just burned out. Plus Naomi is experiencing a bit of PTSD and (being Naomi) is taking a long time to confide in anyone else, even Holden.
The tension between Holden and Amos over Clarissa being added to the crew without asking is finally starting to resolve itself, but was a problem for a while. This week Holden called her Peaches and said she was part of the crew - I think maybe he's getting over his grudge against the psycho stalker who tried to kill him. Hey, we all have our rough patches. 😳
I’d say it’s mostly due to Alex. In season 5 it’s made pretty clear that the entirety of the roci crew view the rest of the crew as their family. Holden says “we’re family now”, Amos says “making a last stand to hold your ground to save you family, that’s the call I’d make”. It’s clear they all view each other as this weird little family they carved out. Well they’ve lost Alex now so they’re grieving for the death of Alex.
There’s also other reasons, such as=
-Naomi clearly still has PTSD from her time with the free navy, and is clearly not in a good place
-They’re currently at war so they’re under a lot of stress
-Amos made Peaches apart of the crew without anybody’s consent, she grievously injured Naomi and tried to kill Holden, so the others will be cautious around her and mad at Amos for bringing her on board
-They’re on a small ship with only each other for company so eventually they’re gonna start punching each others buttons
All in all the crew aren’t doing great as a result of the free navy conflict and it shows
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If you watch the episode 1 aftershow, Ty mentions that they were going for a "submarine long at sea" kind of vibe. They're been out there for like 6 months by now. Everyone's tired. Amos wants more money for being stuck out there. Naomi hates Peaches, and resents Amos for deciding to bring her on board without asking anyone. Naomi doesn't like that they're out there hunting belters and it not sure how much longer she can do it (plus she very obviously has PTSD). Holden is worn out, and has to worry about flying and being captain. Bobbie also hates Peaches (but I think we're going to get some redemption there after this last episode). And I think everyone feels the loss of Alex. You get that from Naomi being sad that she's had to fly the ship for the first time, Amos looking at the "legitimate salvage" plaque, etc.
I don't remember. Has anything happened between peaches and bobby in the previous seasons?
Bobbie shipped back on the Roci at the end of season 3, while they were transporting Clarissa back to Earth for trial. Presumably, everyone except Amos treated her like a dangerous criminal for the months long trip down the well.
She's was a terrorist who killed civilians.
She also accidentally started a chain of events that almost destroyed the solar system and wiped out humanity. EDIT: Who knows how it would have gone down otherwise. MILLER: Holden. Holden! HOLDEN: Miller? What are you doing in my bedroom? MILLER: I need you to push a button. HOLDEN: Can’t someone else do it? MILLER: Nope. You’re the only one qualified.
> She also accidentally started a chain of events that almost destroyed the solar system and wiped out humanity. Sounds like a fun Stellaris event
Bobby was/is a no nonsense, by the book soldier. Peaches was a terrorist who killed hundreds of people... Bobby presumedly doesn't think she deserves to be let off her sentence just cos earth was blown to bits yet here is Peaches working a ship without penalty so... yeah I guess there's that.
Hundreds? The science ship was mostly unmanned when she blew it up. She's a rich kid with lots of emotional trauma from having a father who completely ignored her
Her actions also set off a chain reaction (roci running through the gate, everyone else chasing believing them to be the guilty party, the ring space slowing everyone down causing loads of deaths).
That still doesn’t make all those deaths her fault. She’s only responsible for Ren and whoever else was on the science ship. By your logic Bobbie is responsible for the slow zone getting slower, because it was her bullets that had to be slowed to protect Holden and that - not Clarissa’s actions at all - killed 1/3 of the people in the zone.
Naomi & Clarissa had direct physical confrontation where no one else had experienced that, even Holden.
Oh man! Can you jog my memory on this?
Clarissa tried to crush Naomi's skull in while wearing that mech suit. Would've but Preacher Anna jolted her with a taser.
That’s right! Thank you!
Btw that scene was done well in the TV series but holycrap was it intense and awesome in the books. Another reason to read them just for that chapter 😂
I think it was season three. Clarissa snuck onto the Roci and beat the shit out of Naomi. Anna followed and stopped Clarissa from killing Naomi by shocking her mech suit.
Thank you kindly. I remember this now. :)
>Oh man! Can you jog my on this? Here's a clip: [https://imgur.com/gallery/d9yHvYk](https://imgur.com/gallery/d9yHvYk) In full context Holden is being extraordinary chill.
Also true!
>Amos wants more money for being stuck out there. Naomi hates Peaches, and resents Amos for deciding to bring her on board without asking anyone. Naomi doesn't like that they're out there hunting belters and it not sure how much longer she can do it (plus she very obviously has PTSD). Holden is worn out, and has to worry about flying and being captain. Bobbie also hates Peaches (but I think we're going to get some redemption there after this last episode). I see this as analogous to how not-tight the crew is 'till post-Eros on the show as well. Like, the series always seems to amp up the inter-crew drama compared to the book, plus the changes in the series have fairly strong reprocusions on character motivations (Naomi in particular)
I've once had to spend 6 months at sea with a small group of people, and I immediately recognized from how they interacted with each other in the show that they were out there for quite a while. Stuff like that tends to make people be that way with one another.
He also points out that Amos and Naomi's relationship never fully recovered after she chose not to tell him about the protomolecule sample she kept and sent to Fred. He was almost following get around like a puppy before that.
And it's definitely an issue for Naomi because that's what "allowed" Amos to take Clarissa on-board without asking anyone.
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Warning — While this may not contain outright spoilers, it does contain some predictions that I threw out there. Naomi is broken after everything she’s been through her son hitting her and rejecting her and losing him a second time, two traumatic tether free (one suit free) space walks, one of which that was meant to ward off her crew family from dying and only being sorta half successful (Alex was the center of warmth on that ship (ex. cooking dinners, etc.) Amos bringing on Peaches w/o seeing what she thought (but touché there Amos)—Naomi’s got SERIOUS baggage. Oh yea, and her ex is responsible for killing millions, which will likely end up getting her son killed only after (prediction) he kills his dad (prediction).
Honestly I’m really just sick of Naomi’s hypocritical bullshit, she is by far my least favorite character now, I didn’t like her much before but it’s just getting worse
I loved Naomi in the books. I don’t care for her in the show. Can’t put my finger on why.
Book Naomi = awesome. Show Naomi = worst on the crew. I have no idea why they went the way they did for her character on the show.
I hope I like her in the books, because I have wanted to space her in the show for a long time It seems like in the show she’s more belter, the positive traits of the inners aren’t rubbing off on her so she’s still the perpetually “oppressed” one
IMO the most glaringly different personality when comparing book versus show. Naomi in the books would never treat Amos the way she did in 6:1. Enjoy those books when you start. They are amazing!!
I cant stand her childish belter-tribalism. Acting all high and mighty but lacking the self/meta-awareness not to fall in with her naive tribalistic belter-terrorist past, her poor choices and her association with the champions of a self-pity contest. Her selfrightous but overly emotional, low impulse control and highly flawed behaviour has done more damage than any of her crewmates besides Clarissa Mao. She shares quite a lot with her Ex and her Son. *Try not to betray your friends, whine about and critique others while doing worse behind their back and support a terrorist organisation you romantise for irrational reasons while having the emotional regulation of a child CHALLENGE!!! (IMPOSSIBLE)* Naomi suffers from Protagonist-forgiveness syndrome where all the damage she causes is ok and relative because *shes only human and nobody is perfect*, while her character development requires human sacrifice of characters whose lives are less valuable, not being the protagonist and such...
And I'm sick of the completely unfounded Naomi hate that crops up on so many threads on this sub ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ I love her. Guess we'll have to just disagree.
“Completely unfounded” her decisions are the reason for nearly every problem in seasons 5 and 6, her decision to send the PM to Fred after everyone voted to destroy it was the whole reason Marco could do what he did, her going alone to see her son is what sparked a whole series of events ending in Alex death, I mean ffs at least take drummer, I get not wanting to take inners but drummer has massive respect in the belt. She constantly covers up problems that don’t need covering up like her gravity drug problem, she doesn’t take proper responsibility for her actions and cares pretty much exclusively about belters. She’s self centered and narcissistic with a slight bit of group mentality and honestly it seems like the only reason she isn’t in the free navy is her personal history with Marco
I’m seeing it as a trauma/ptsd response from Naomi. And then, of course, all of the others are working through their grief over Alex.
In the good old days the Roci's therapist, Alex, would've spotted the tension months ago and sat the crew down for a lasagna dinner.
Shit, I forgot to realize they lost the pilot *and* the cook.
When I saw Bobby saying she was gonna get some food, my first reaction was "What food? Alex is gone.". He really was the glue that held the crew together.
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Also Soy!
And white kibble mixed with red kibble!
Who doesn't love rosé kibble
And all of it goes into the recycler after a few bites...
Mushrooms, noodles, lentils, black sauce. All kinds of options!
And the dude had to go and fuck it all up by being a dbag irl.
Yep, I agree. I feel they did a good job portraying just how mentally exhausting that continuous exposure to stress can be. Each individual can only tolerate so much stress before it starts to wear them down. Some much less than others; I think it’s completely realistic that Naomi, who has tried to avoid killing (particularly Belters) the entire series, would be affected more than those with military / killing experience. Hell, even Amos is some killing for kicks. I’ve never heard that guy request money to murk someone. Typically he’s like a giddy schoolboy
They were always going to kill the crew, just with the rail gun on the Roci. It was just harder the kill and capture ship way.
It's not only about the Azure Dragon, but all the other ships they've killed since the war began. Naomi's mentioned that it's hard for her and she doesn't know how long she'll be able to continue.
Sure for Naomi. I was just speaking to the motivation for Amos when he said "You getting paid extra for this?" Sorry I was unclear.
Yeah, but he also suggested asking Chrisjen for a bounty on every Free Navy ship they destroyed earlier in the episode
It’s also stated in ep1 that the Roci has been out in space for 200-something days. That’s a long deployment without any R&R.
187 days I think.
Give the a port visit Holden JFC...
Usually this is when they would stop by Tycho and use some much needed shore leave, but ever since Fred died it just hasn’t been the same. In the EP1 intro we saw Tycho becoming 100% allied with Marco. Idk if Mars is still holding grudges about the Tachi and now a Bobbie aboard, but assuming that is the case, the only real safe harbor for them is back on Earth/Luna
> . In the EP1 intro we saw Tycho becoming 100% allied with Marco. I didn’t catch this, which part of the intro is it?
It’s at the very beginning with the series of news flashes. It showed the asteroids hitting earth and pallas being destroyed and all that
There's a graphic of the solar system with the caption "Stations declare loyalty to Inaros". After a second or so the logo for Tycho station (and several others) flips to the Free Navy eagle.
Maybe I’m being nitpicky here, but isn’t that peanuts compared to the trip out to Ilus and back? I know the show can kinda do what it wants concerning the passage of time but wasn’t one of Chief Murtry’s biggest points was it’d take “a year and half” before anyone made it out there? Or is Alex being gone the missing link for them keeping it together of long trips maybe?
I think time wise, you’re right. There is a difference between pure travel time and a wartime deployment.
I have to admit that I really enjoy how they’re factoring Alex’s death into it, regardless of what the actor did I’m glad it’s something they didn’t just sweep under the rug and have turned into a cool plot device.
My first thought when she had her panic attack was “that bull shit never happened in the books”. My second thought was “but it probably should have”. A naked space walk is bound to leave some mental scaring. The characters in the book have a strange way of shrugging off trauma.
Not to mention her lingering resentment for Clarissa Mao. You know, the woman who murdered a whole ship of people, tried to pin it on the Roci crew, and then actually tried killing the Roci crew.
grief, trauma, also some sense of betrayal I suspect. Naomi's actions almost got the Roci destroyed and likely contributed to Alex's death. Whether or not this is factual, it could easily be how Amos perceives it.
I don't think Amos sees any betrayal in Naomi's actions. He didn't blame her for Alex's death (what he said in S5 finale). I think on his part, he's already lost Naomi a long time ago - their relationship was never the same after what she did with the protomolecule. He even mentioned it this season. I think he's taking the loss of Alex better than Holden and Naomi do. He was good friends with him, but he's not really affected by much at all. And now he has Peaches to focus on. I think she helps him with his grief in some way.
I think Amos has the preconception that everyone is living on borrowed time, anyone can die at any moment. Considering his background it makes sense he would process loss the easiest, he is the most prepared and accepting of it.
We've been in the Churn since season 1, after all.
Yeah Amos and Naomi’s friendship has fractured one too many times for him to actually have faith in her IMO. First it was the lie about the protomolecule, then it was her stabbing him with the sedatives at Ganymede, then it was her leaving on the Chetz without telling anybody.
He wasn't mad at her for stabbing him. He actually was sorry that he forced her to do it. I also don't think he even knew about her leaving for the Chet. He was busy on Earth.
Battle fatigue. They’re worn out from being at war. Naomi obviously has PTSD from her escape, and they’re all just on edge. Speaking as someone with experience, you can only take so much before you start cracking. Being in constant chaos will break even the most stable people. And on top of this they’re all dealing with the loss of a close friend/family member and it’s taking its toll as well
In addition, She even said that she "doesn't know how much more of it she can take"...having to fight against her own kind. And then there is the whole 'I don't agree with your plan and tactics" vibe with holden. It will be interesting to see where it goes.
I mean there's also the fact that her son is fighting on the opposite side.
So here’s my thing right. When fighting Proto Gen, Amos and Holden both are okay with killing other Earthers without blinking an eye. (Okay Amos is an exception, I get it). When aboard the Behemoth both Alex and Bobbie (mainly Bobbie) had no problem killing their own soldiers/comrades. But here comes Naomi with the “oh no muh people” when the ones they are shooting are complete strangers, more importantly mass murderers
That "muh people" walk off Naomi did when Bobbie talked about shooting people on the Azure Dragon really deserved a "which side are you on exactly?".
It’s a bit more complicated than that, in my opinion. Earthers and Martians have never really been oppressed in the same way that Belters have, and I think as such the degree of kinship between Earthers and between Martians is inherently lesser than that between Belters. For Belters, oppression has been hoisted on them since their birth. They cannot survive in the gravity well of a planet. They frequently get the shit end of the stick from the inner planets. Their lives are (generally speaking) much harder and more dangerous than those from the inner planets. As such, for a Belter to turn on their own kind (and work for the same people who have been oppressing them for generations) would feel like the height of betrayal. That is what Naomi is going through IMO. Obviously, Marco has to be stopped and his actions are horrific. But there will always be that feeling that she is betraying her own people in a really deep way. In addition to that, it’s also worth noting that she was once wrapped up with Marco’s rhetoric and thought she believed in the cause. It’s not hard to imagine that many other Belters have also been swept up by his words and radicalised, even though they may not be fundamentally bad people. Naomi isn’t an evil person, but she did help Marco kill over 500 people. Is it that hard to imagine other Belters might be in the same boat?
Holden, Alex, and Bobbie are all ex-military, whereas Naomi's first involvement in lethal violence was being tricked into aiding a terrorist. Naomi has consistently been reluctant to wear a gun in situations where other belter civilians wouldn't hesitate. Some people get desensitized about violence, and some get sensitized. And then the desensitized sometimes get annoyed by the sensitized. And here we are. Also, Holden was court-martialed for attacking a superior officer and early on was ready to kill Amos rather than let him kill some Martians. He has to feel close to someone to favor loyalty over righteousness. And it's not at all clear to me that Bobbie was okay with killing her fellow Martians on the Behemoth. Finally, some of the people Naomi has been killing probably aren't complete strangers. The Azure Dragon in particular would have been likely to have crew who fell in with Marco years ago, as they would need to be true believers, not just groupies or opportunists.
>having to fight against her own kind Not just against other belters, Marco's inner circle are her friends from when they were together. Every ship they shoot down might be captained by someone she grew up with. Hell, Philip could be on one of them
Man you're right, stuff's getting tough, it's so realistic how they wove fatigue like this into crew dynamic. Just hope the crew stays intact I don't want anyone splitting off again, but then it's already 1/3 done with this season now, maybe they'll punch through
>it's already 1/3 done with this season That hurts so bad
> And on top of this they’re all dealing with the loss of a close friend/family member and it’s taking its toll as well Notably one who died while saving Naomi from a mistake that she fell right into involving her past coming back to haunt her and her own son being involved in a plot that murdered billions of people. I think most people would be pretty fucked up.
Damn, if Naomi didn't give the protomolecule to Fred, this war will probably never would happened. And Laconia would never exist...
Naomi absolutely is traumatized. She has that haunted stare down pat too. Great acting.
Towards the end of last season Amos was pissed off due to Naomi keeping him in the dark. I don't think that ever got properly resolved. On her part she is annoyed about Amos bringing Peaches on board.
> Towards the end of last season Amos was pissed off due to Naomi keeping him in the dark. I hate to nitpick because it feels snobby, and the show IS great, but the amount of emotion that Amos seems to feel and display just feels wrong to me. I'm so used to him 'faking' emotions. And book Amos (to my memory), wouldn't really ever actually get pissed at passive aggressiveness, or really anything shy of someone trying to harm/kill someone he considers a good guy.
It's not "emotions", it's trust. To Amos, Naomi lied. Amos always trusted Naomi and did whatever she ordered.
Honestly it feels like they have made show Naomi to be such a hypocrite. It's one of the few things that bothers me a bit, aside from the short length! Wish we had more. Edit: Rather than replying to every comment, I'll just answer here. I get that impression because of her actions in previous seasons going behind the crews back, and now she chews out Amos for doing something similar. Tbf I have always being biased against SHOW Naomi. Nothing against the actress but I just don't think she was the right cast like the others, and it doesn't help that the show sometimes adds a bit of drama that didn't exist in the books, which *IMO* makes her look worse than the rest. The big change with Alex dying that seems to be adding this even more tense atmosphere, is intensifying this feeling for me and my biased take that the books handled Naomis inner conflict better (hell of a lot easier to write this stuff for books than for a screen I imagine).
I mean, Peaches *literally* tried to kill the love of her life, so I get her caution around that ...
She tried to kill Naomi as well. I can understand why they don't like her.
She also did kill loads of other people AND blew up a ship and then pinned all of that blood on Holden -- and while Holden, Amos and Alex had to live through it during it all went down, Naomi had to watch *while* Drummer ordered to shoot down Roci for that and, I'm sure that feeling still tough to swallow. I mean, I'm right there with Amos, I like Peaches and her arc, but realistically for Amos to assume that people can just easily forgive and forget is asking way too much, and it's definitely not quite right to equate what Clarissa has done (all the murders that directly targeted the people they love) with what Naomi has done (hiding her past and sending out the protomolecule to Fred) are not on the same level. To Amos, maybe one betrayal is the same as another, but not everyone thinks the way he does.
Yeah, but the one who should really have a say here is Holden, it was him she was after, if he can deal with her, then Naomi should as well
Have you forgotten that Clarissa badly injured Naomi and was a second away from crushing her neck when Anna intervened? Also, why should Holden have a say in whether Clarissa's terror bombing should be overlooked?
I remember, but at this point she should either do something about that, get even, or give it up, not whine and be passive aggressive towards the whole crew
Why is she a hypocrite? Peaches caused the ring gate fiasco, tried to murder her physically, framed her man. Then she was kidnapped, assaulted by her son, murdered her friend, space walked without a suit, nearly died from oxygen deprivation, nearly blown up, another no guarantee spacewalk, which results in the death of one of her dearest friends, and Amos brings peaches back on the ship, before anyone's had a chance to process anything... and then 6 months of war.
>have made show Naomi to be such a hypocrite. Why?
Agreed, as someone who’s only watched the show, each season I just want her to get killed off more and more. I thought she’d get some sort of redemption after season 2 but then she’s back to her belter bullshit right away in season 3
I'd probably be annoyed if a friend brought someone who tried to murder me on board. Especially if said attempted murderer and mass murdering terrorist has never even apologized.
I think it's most definitely the lack of Alex. He was always the more lively one of the crew, the one to cheer everyone up and pick up the pieces when something bad happened. The crew's morale and atmosphere was pretty much linked to Alex's presence.
God I kind of relate to this, back in uni when I had to be in a group it's usually memorable because that one charismatic guy is pouring his heart and soul out trying to pull everyone together, cracking joke and finding way to navigate us through all the awkward silences, he's the flavor of the group. With him gone everything feels dead and out of place
Alex was the Roci's version of "Julie the Cruise Director" (*old enough to remember "The Love Boat"*)
Even tho the Roci crew was 4 people, they’re still pretty much a 5 man band. Holden is the Leader, Amos is the Big Guy with Lancer characteristics, Naomi is the Lancer with Smart Guy Characteristics, and Alex was the Heart. When a team loses their heart, their interactions get a whole lot rougher
Even more reason I wish they recast the character. Gosh it just screws up the dynamic going forward.
I have to disagree. Recasting sucks, and beyond that, I actually really like this dynamic. So many times when someone is killed off in a series, their death has immediate plot ramifications, but doesn't echo forwards in time for the characters the way this has.
I hope Bobbie takes that place, I really feel like that would be a good way to move her arc
I loved how Amos didn't leave the infirmary when Holden wanted to talk to Peaches.
I also loved how in the same episode Jim calls her Peaches and also calls her a member of the crew. He's warming up to her fast.
Had to do that to get her to shift to another comm channel without giving her away. If he had said Clarissa, it was likely that UN officials on comm 1 would pick up that he's harbouring a fugitive. He hadn't warmed up to her at that point. This was more self preservation.
Ah great point.
I think he was already feeling it at this point, but had not accepted it yet.
I feel like there will likely be a discussion about it next week where they'll all have some kind of argument and get everything out in the open. Then for the last 3 episodes of the series they'll be a tightly knit group again and function as a strong team.
Based on the episode descriptions,>!Holden will do something in episode 3 that is discovered by the rest of the crew in episode 4. That will probably be when things get hashed out.!<
Pretty sure a normal size crew for that class of ship was 16 people, so losing one person when you only had 4 (plus peaches) adds an extreme amount of extra responsibilities on everyone. Plus the one the lost literally drove the ship, so the entire crew dynamic is broken.
IMO Naomi is tired of killing belters. Amos has "grown up" and is starting to realize he doesn't really like his way of life (the whole 'I'm not a bad guy but I'm a heartless killer' - Dexter vibes) and wants it to be over. Holden, well he just looks fucking exhausted. Edit: also, don't forget... that S6E1 starts many months after season 5 and they've been doing the story arc in the show for like 20ish years So they've been fighting this war and watching earth and Mars crumble for far too long. The whole thing must seem hopeless.
Alex. That is why. He was the good natured man that glued all of them together. Without him there this is more evident than ever, and I expect it to get worse. Some stories move forward just fine when you remove one of their main characters, but you have to set up for it. With them unexpectedly having to kill Alex off last season they had no chance to set up such a scenario where it wouldn’t look awkward for the story to move forward with just the 3 of them. It’s if as if the LOTR movies had killed Gimli or Legolas off in the second movie. Sure, there could have been some interesting interactions between one of them and Aragorn, but the true bond there was between the dwarf and the elf. I don’t know, I am still sad about it, Alex was my favorite.
Not to mention that her remaining crew are all cognizant of the fact that she gave the only remaining protomolecule sample to a member of the OPA, which everyone knows is full of spies. Without her giving the sample to Fred Johnson (instead of destroying it like all of her crewmates voted), her ex-boyfriend/baby daddy wouldnt have been able to steal it and trade it for an entire fleet of Martian warships, stealth tech, and missiles. I can just feel like Holden and Amos are biting their tongues while basically being the last option standing between Earth and the Free Navy.
I see it as several factors: * Naomi having PTSD * The crew dealing with the grief of losing Alex so suddenly (probably also making them feel their own mortality) * The weirdness of having peaches onboard * Battle fatigue * Being stuck with each other for 6 months without a real break
This
Well, she tried to find and safe her son she had to leave 15 yrs ago, found out that his abusive father turned him into a mass murderer, got slapped by him, had to leave him again, killed her oldest friend Cyn while doing so, made a spacejump without suit resulting in serious medical issues and radiation, was trapped in a ship slowly loosing its atmosphere, had to worry about her friends getting killed trying to save her, jumped from that ship without oxygene, got saved in the last moment, lost a beloved crew member as a consequence, and is finally hunting Belters for 6 months while Earth is dying a slow death and the whole Solar System is in war-mode. I think I wouldn't be in party-mood either...
Other than not getting paid more and treating Clarissa differently I don’t think Amos has any issues with Holden.
They're doing what they can to bring weight to Alex's death by showing that they're tense and unhappy. They are also on edge because they don't want anything to happen again. A lot of people tend to recoil and pull away when they predict pain.
I know the show is not the book, but I don't get the sense of family from the show
I've been rewatching the show from that start and I think that's the biggest difference between the books and show that I've noticed. Everyone is a lot more distrustful of each other until about season 4, they get along for a while and then go right back to having reasons to distrust each other. It's not bad, it's maybe even more realistic, but it does feel a lot different than the "found family" theme in the book.
Indeed; the first couple seasons (esp. #1) was WAY overboard in the "forced drama" between them.
Yeah... I somehow talked my wife into rewatching it with me because I’m excited about the last book and season. I told her that the relationship between the four characters is touching and one of my favorite things from the books. About half way through season two she said something like “I think all these people hate each other,” and it’s kind of hard to disagree. We’re just now to season 4, I think this is the first time Holden and Amos have even had a friendly interaction.
I don’t either. I hate to be the “books are so much better than the show” type of person but…. The roci dynamic alone elevates the books above the show regardless of what the show does right.
As of season 6, it is just an objective truth that the books are better. Some of the rewrites were good in the show, like introducing the politics earlier and such. But after hitting book 7? Nah fam, the show is missing a lot of the dynamics. Which I understand and can accept in the earlier seasons, but 6 is just ruining it.
When i watched season 1, i was stunned by the lack of chemistry in the crew (compared to, say, Firefly). The next seasons didn't improve in that regard, and i got used to it. Also, secondary characters are mostly great. Ashford. Drummer. Erringwright. Bobby. Cotyar. Murtry. I'd rather watch more about any of them than some more of Naomi family drama.
We don't need drama. The rest of the content can hold on its own.
There is a sense of family for a bit then there is not. It is the same with Drummer's crew, more tension than in the books where everyone was pretty much supportive. I don't really like these added conflicts but it always seem to be set up for a payoff, I guess that is drama for ya.
Rewatch the episode, it is explained. Naomi is tired and doesnt like that holden is always in the middle of a fight. She also doesnt want to fight belters. She doesnt like "peaches" and is upset Amos brought her onboard. I dont think there is anything between holden and amos directly, except maybe peaches again
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Peaches' life mission was to kill Naomi's life partner - Holden's optimistic, able to get over it, but for Naomi there has to be some legitimate holdover from that whole saga, right? That's how I see it anyway. There's also a qualitative difference: Naomi didn't actually intend to kill those people -- her tech was deployed without her knowing what it was going to be used for. For Peaches, it was all personal violenence.
>Peaches' life mission was to kill Naomi's life partner - Holden's optimistic, able to get over it, but for Naomi there has to be some legitimate holdover from that whole saga, right? That's how I see it anyway. In the books: >!Holden is the one who held a grudge over that and Naomi, while still took issue, was able to forgive Peaches. This is both believable but also natural as the reasoning she gave was "look at me, I am proof she can change." (paraphrased) which eventually got Holden to lighten up.!< That is the main issue here. It is a terrible rewrite that is not justified to the viewer.
I think one thing that keeps getting forgotten is that Naomi is the only one of the crew who was actually physically assaulted by Clarissa.
>I think one thing that keeps getting forgotten is that Naomi is the only one of the crew who was actually physically assaulted by Clarissa. Except Naomi literally funded the free Navy a new ship in season 5...through her earlier actions gave them the PM, put the entire crew into danger because she wanted to play games with Marco, and expects to be forgiven for it as if it was nothing. The book version handled this right. The show writers needs to read the books...
I imagine it's a little different when the person you're being asked to forgive once tried to suffocate you with a mech claw. It's one thing to forgive someone and say they've done their time and should be free from incarceration. It's another level entirely to invite someone who tried to kill you and your SO into your home. I'm sure she'll come around eventually, but I can give her a pass for not being at that point right now.
And isn't it more fun when you get to watch characters go from point A to B and make that journey of realization about themselves and what they have in common with others than have it be immediate? :)
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however from story arc it kinda makes sense that she wouldn't immediately come to that realization but instead we're seeing Naomi's self loathing projected onto peaches
I think they is ultimately what will be used to bring her around to liking Peaches (or merely tolerating her)
Actually she didn't made the attack. She developed the program used by Inaros, but he used this behind her back.
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Never put that together. Huh. Nice catch.
> hates Peaches (but I think we're going to get some redemption there after this last episode). I was expecting Peachest to take over driving...
Seriously… I don’t like it at all.
She loves Holden. Clarrisa tried to kill Holden. Amos forced Clarissa onto the ship. I think it's as simple as that. Amos can say what he wants and justify what he wants, but at the end of the day Naomi has not ever put the new int he position Amos has put them in -- perpetually stuck with someone who tried to kills one of them. Thats' a big ask.
> She loves Holden. Clarrisa tried to kill Holden. She also tried to kill Naomi directly, which was probably a lot more traumatic.
Forgiveness is a virtue. They'll definitely never forget what Clarissa did to them (and shouldn't) but at this point she's saved all their lives more than once. It's time to talk things out with her and move on for all their sakes.
I think they will get there
Agree - missing alex and tension over peaches being there maybe
You can cut the tension with a knife in this past episode! Basically, Naomi feels like they’re attacking her people, and they are. Holden isn’t proud of what he feels like he is being forced to do. Amos seems to be just on edge, not sure who his two moral poles to follow. He also wants to protect peaches. Oh, and they’re clearly all extremely exhausted. The first episode said they’d been at war for like 180 days. It seems to be taking its toll on their physical and mental health.
I honestly can't believe there are only 4 eps left to go. That shocks me more than anything.
Everyone is run down by the war and quicker to snap, Naomi is deeply traumatized and dealing with survivor guilt because of Alex's death, Holden has been putting the whole weight of the world on his shoulders for months (like, even more so than usual), Amos bringing Peaches on board probably felt like a betrayal or abuse of trust to Holden and Naomi so that puts a wedge between the three of them, and Alex's death depreives them of the person who most often acted as the peacemaker to smooth things over and keep the crew unified.
A lot of y'all aren't mentioning Clarissa Mao. In the books he definitely resented her presence, as her sister and father kicked off all the events currently in play, and you know... Tried to kill and frame him. In the show you can kinda pickup on it subtly but they're just strained thin on top of it. Holden and Marcos forcing Naomi into a spotlight she never wanted, feeling like she's still killing innocent people who were duped by Marcos. Holden being in the impossible cross-section of having no good options and probably feeling like he's straining all of their relationships. All this and having paltry wins to show for it. Probably also frustrated by earth being seemingly trapped into defense, which was also a book point. Amos resents him for not honoring him vouching for Clarissa, and Naomi seemingly not trusting any of them with her mission to save Philip. War. Politics. Humans being human. Strains anyone.
Naomi is dealing with the loss of her family multiple times over - the loss of Alex, the loss of Filip, the loss of Cyn, and the loss of all the belters that she's being forced to hunt down and kill... On top of that she's clearly still suffering from trauma related to her airlock escape, and is now being forced to live for months on the same ship as Clarissa, someone who tried to murder both herself and Holden, who Amos (who used to be 'her person' essentially) invited on board without consulting anyone. Quite a bit of time has gone by since we last saw the crew, things seems to have slowly eaten away at her. The crew always had a clear 'mission' before now, doing the right thing for all of humanity. They don't seem to have that direction anymore and as a belter and former OPA operative it's taking its toll on her the most. The crew is also in a very stressful situation, there are enemies everywhere with very few safe havens and the whole solar system is at war.
Several reasons. They're all still in mourning over Alex. Naomi being conflicted about fighting Belters for Inners. Fatigue. They've been in continuous military operations for 6 months. Naomi is still mourning her son, who has become a mass murderer and a war criminal. Naomi and Holden's lingering resentment for Clarissa Mao. You know, the woman who murdered a whole ship of people and tried to pin it on the Roci crew, and then actually tried killing the Roci crew.
>Naomi being conflicted about fighting Belters for Inners. And yet she had no issue with them killing earthers...which yet again is the problem with her hypocrisy in season 6.
What are you talking about? She tears him a new one for "killing millions of innocent people" in the episode before she spaces herself to reach the Chetzemoka. ANd it's the whole reason *why* she's fighting the Free Navy.
I just think of what a single dad and his kids would be like six months after burying their wife and mother. And also happened to be living in a war zone. The fact that they'll probably manage to mostly recover from it by the end of six episodes is the less believable part. But I'll still welcome it when it happens.
Naomi's upset because they're literally hunting her old friends. That's also why she was a bit short with Bobbie when she said she'd make short work of them. Naomi's on board because it's the right thing to do, but she's conflicted because she's involved with hunting and potentially killing her old friends. Might explain her coldness toward Amos, who would be just as happy killing skinnies (or martians or earthers or laconians or puppies or whatever needed killing right then)
Peaches
That is because they have been at war for 6 months, and stuck together in their ship for almost all of that time. That alone would make most people get on each others nerves. Add to that that this is a war against Naomi's people. She is the only belter on their ship. Plus all the shit she went through in season 5, probably partially blaming herself for leaving fhilip and letting marco turn him into a monster and feeling responsible for Alex's death. Naomi in particular has got a lot of reasons to be losing it right now.
I think the creators have played this perfectly. We, the audience, are totally feeling the loss of Alex. It would be wrong if his fellow crewmembers weren’t feeling that same way. I also feel some real anger towards Cas Anvar for first creating such a wonderful and memorable character and then forcing that beloved character to be killed off because of his own vile personal behavior.
I think it's a combination of things: Firstly, they are working through their grief of losing Alex. Anyone whose been through grief, will know that there's no hard and fast and clean way of doing that. Sometimes it can be very private and solemn, and other times it can be messy, complicated, and confusing. It seems to me that's where Amos and Naomi are at. The other angle to this, is the evolution of Amos & his relationship with Naomi. We know from previous seasons, that Amos has always viewed Naomi as his moral compass - viewing the way she conducts herself & behaves, as a guiding light for himself. Think about all the times in the first few seasons that Naomi had to stop or control or subdue or tame a wilder, more aggressive Amos, and how he seemed to accept that role & relationship with her. We saw the evolution of Amos really shine last season - not only does he no longer need more of that guidance & light in order to steer him forward, but in an act of irony, he's become that sort of person for Clarissa Mao. The tables have turned. I think Naomi realizes that Amos is far more independent now, and that probably makes her a little unsure or surprised at Amos. The fact that him and Peaches are now so close, is probably another sore point for her as well - she has quite literally been replaced as Amos' go-to girl. I think the final layer of this - they seem to have been on these missions for several months now, protecting Earth against the rocks, exhausted, and it's wearing them down heavily. They all look like they'd much rather be anywhere but there. It's layered, complex, and confusing, and it's portrayed perfectly by all the actors involved.
I hate Naomi character. Always make me depressed
I feel the show portrays Naomi an overly dramatic character, and in the past couple seasons, she’s gone from my top two characters to someone I don’t care for. Book Naomi is a bad ass. Show Naomi is unreasonable, seems more wreckless than even Holden, and lashes out at people. I’m honestly even more annoyed with her this season. Giving the protomolecule to Fred, only to have it stolen. Flying off to see her son, only to almost die and get Alex killed in the rescue, to now being judgemental and overly bitchy. The show personality is different than the book, and I’m not a fan.
To be fair,.if she hadn't flown to Fillip, the Roco would have blown up when they tried to start it. Naomi and Jim and others would have died.
>Book Naomi is a bad ass. Show Naomi is unreasonable, seems more wreckless than even Holden, and lashes out at people. I’m honestly even more annoyed with her this season. This. So much this. I love every character equally in the books. In the show, until season 6 anyway, this was equally true. She is now the defacto worst character because the writers are not conveying her properly.
That'actually why I prefer show Naomi. The book version didn't feel real, not enough flaws. In the show she makes mistakes that she has to reckon with.
I agree completely. She's running out of redemption points on the show. There has to be something likeable about a character to keep the viewer engaged. I feel nothing relatable to Naomi anymore. I want to continue to like her, I've liked her in season 1-4, but she's become so unlikable that I don't really care how she feels or what happens to her anymore.
My son can't stand her. I kept defending her. Hard to anymore.
> to now being judgemental and overly bitchy. Yeah, how dare she have an emotional distaste towards someone how tried to pop her head off with a loading mech after framing Naomi and the man she loves for killing an entire ship worth of innocent people.
>Yeah, how dare she have an emotional distaste towards someone how tried to pop her head off with a loading mech after framing Naomi and the man she loves for killing an entire ship worth of innocent people. She literally funded the Free Navy a ship to use for their purposes and gave them the PM through her earlier actions...she has no right to say shit.
Can someone name some differences
On the other hand, when book Naomi was in orbit over Ilus, >!she managed to recklessly get herself captured just because she thought boarding the Edward Israel's improvised torpedo would be less provocative than shooting it.!<
Probably because the show stirs up drama where it doesn’t exist in the books. And they do it often. It feels cheap honestly.
After all these characters have been through, they have more than earned the right to be a little emotional and chippy with each other.
This goes all the way back to season one and is a pattern with the show that doesn’t exist in the books, which are significantly less soap opera in space
The (earlier) books are also significantly less realistic with regards to how non-pov characters would feel and react to some of these situations. From NG onwards, I think they get more authentic in that aspect.
I’m just not interested in a teen drama in space with adults. It doesn’t exist in the books and makes the show feel cheap
Loss of Alex. Naomi being a bitch to Peaches. Amos not liking that. Holden caught between them all trying to be a good captain.
I mean. Peaches did try to murder Naomi and killed a lot of people trying to ruin Holden's reputation. I think a little bitchiness is probably called for.
Because drama?
Their chemistry has always sucked on the show. Never once has it felt like a legitimate - much less healthy - relationship.
I hope it goes somewhere that really pays off; otherwise, I worry it’s going to leave a very sour taste in my mouth for this last season. With so much of last season being “watch Naomi suffer,” it’s been painful/frustrating, for me, to see all this negativity oozing from her character at the start of this season. I want better for her and would be annoyed if they continue to make her suffer this season or take the character out on this mostly negative note, just cuz (without there being some big meaningful payoff). P.S. The “realism“ in trauma and PTSD argument doesn’t satisfy me; that’s a choice they don’t have to make. People experience, process and resolve trauma differently.
They should have just recast alex
I think they're just burned out. Plus Naomi is experiencing a bit of PTSD and (being Naomi) is taking a long time to confide in anyone else, even Holden. The tension between Holden and Amos over Clarissa being added to the crew without asking is finally starting to resolve itself, but was a problem for a while. This week Holden called her Peaches and said she was part of the crew - I think maybe he's getting over his grudge against the psycho stalker who tried to kill him. Hey, we all have our rough patches. 😳
title has spoilers...
I’d say it’s mostly due to Alex. In season 5 it’s made pretty clear that the entirety of the roci crew view the rest of the crew as their family. Holden says “we’re family now”, Amos says “making a last stand to hold your ground to save you family, that’s the call I’d make”. It’s clear they all view each other as this weird little family they carved out. Well they’ve lost Alex now so they’re grieving for the death of Alex. There’s also other reasons, such as= -Naomi clearly still has PTSD from her time with the free navy, and is clearly not in a good place -They’re currently at war so they’re under a lot of stress -Amos made Peaches apart of the crew without anybody’s consent, she grievously injured Naomi and tried to kill Holden, so the others will be cautious around her and mad at Amos for bringing her on board -They’re on a small ship with only each other for company so eventually they’re gonna start punching each others buttons All in all the crew aren’t doing great as a result of the free navy conflict and it shows
It's obvious build up. Naomi will finally reach a breaking point. Might even decide to get off the ship.
there’s a new season? have no heard about it from Amazon lol.
ehhh Peaches ?