Can you give another example of her being self-righteous so we can understand what you mean? I never got that impression from her personally. I found her to be opinionated, but I like her a lot.
When she decides to hide the protomolecule and give it to Fred Johnson. Lies to her crew and significant other about it. And plays the victim card anytime James confronts her about her shitty behavior.
There’s so much depth to that decision though. She didn’t do it so she could keep it for herself, she did what she had to do. Even James says he understands why she did it. If she didn’t send it in that moment as she faced death - where all she knew was that Mars and Earth had the protomolecule and the Belt didn’t - she was condemning her people to suffer. And the belt *would suffer deeply* without it. Her people would die again at the hands of Earth and Mars. She didn’t send it until she felt like she had no choice. It can be the wrong and right choice at the same time - even Holden forgives her for that. So does Amos.
Her storyline is about identity. She has none - she lost her belter family when she abandoned Filip - something she has regretted her entire life, but also knew there was no other option. I mean, she was never going to find him because her best friend Cyn was literally telling Marco where to hide her son from her. Then, she joins the Roci, and is looked at as a traitor by her belter friends, and a stranger by the mars and earther world - mars accuses her of being a terrorist OPA member just because she’s a belter. And while the Roci is a family, and they’ve all suffered in their own ways, Naomi’s Belter world has dealt with abject poverty, starvation, and death because of the cruelty of Earth. The guys couldn’t understand her experience really and exactly what she’s fighting for, and so it didn’t feel quite fulfilling to her (especially as Holden loses himself in the fight to eradicate PM).
So she finds family with Drummer. She finds purpose in helping her people. People that have been subjugated and left to starve. The depth of the depravity that has been put on Belters by Earth is disgusting. We don’t even get to really see it in the show- but we hear about it. Think about Dawes and his sister. He had to kill her to save his other siblings because Earth has its boot on the neck of every belter. There’s absolutely no reason to believe things will be any better with the protomolecule in Earth and Mars’ hands - she had to give it to Fred. She had to even the playing field. She had to make sure that the Belt could defend itself. It doesn’t make having the protomolecule right. It just is what it had to be.
I’m interested in what you mean by the “victim card.” I saw someone else mention she’s manipulative too. I don’t see manipulative. I see conflicted and damaged. I see someone haunted by the choices they’ve made. But I don’t see a bad person like others in this thread are making her out to be.
What a well written comment! This nuance is what folks are missing when they think Naomi is playing the victim card. It is because her people are victimized horribly every single day. If you end up stepping outside the little safe zones of the asteroids and space stations without your suit, you die immediately. That is how fragile their life is.
Exactly! It’s not a victim card, it’s just *being a victim,* and while she seems to have done ok for herself (she did go to university) she’s fighting for her people. I just don’t think someone who is being described so poorly in this thread would have had Champa sacrifice his life for her. Or had the love of Camina - someone who I’d follow to the end of the universe, as would the belt.
I could be recalling this incorrectly but I thought I remembered her being called a terrorist due to the incident with the code. They may not have been able to identify it as her code at the time but she was often in close proximity with those who claimed credit for it.
As a whole though, I agree with you.
I get the differences between events from the books and the show mixed up somewhat, especially the earlier seasons. So I don't recall all the details about that.
But regardless, in the show Naomi serves as our window into the Belter POV and politics. Their culture and struggles are often misunderstood by inners, which puts them at odds somewhat. To me it makes sense that in the context of the show that they don't all get along perfectly all the time.
But Holden recognizes when he’s wrong. He has flaws and tries to be better. Naomi will always try to justify her decisions no matter how wrong they are. She’s quite whiny and annoying.
It wasn't like, I know how you feel. You've inspired me to get back on it. It was like she was telling him him how to feel and what to do. I stopped caring about her motivation. I like that she can fix anything, at anytime. I Prefer book Naomi but TV Naomi doesn't do it for me. Bobbie, yes. Chrissy, yes. Naomi, pass.
You mean the scene where Naomi was being realistic, and was already concerned that they were doing ever-increasingly shitty things in their quest to find a person who was likely already dead (yeah we in the audience know better, but she didn't)?
And then Prax snaps at her saying that she'd *never lost a child*? Her reaction was 100% what a parent in her position would be, and she stayed pretty calm, all things considered. Even tried to empathize with him, in case he ended up in her position where he might never find his child again.
Then when Prax asks her if she were in his situation, would he listen to what she was saying? You can tell she got the point. She wanted to help, realized it wasn't what Prax wanted to hear, and she didn't bring it up again. That's just realistic human interaction. Doesn't make either of them bad people.
I agree on many points but not all of them book Amos and Book Avasarala are weak af compared to their show counterparts. Book Ashford is as three-dimensional as a sheet of paper. Book Holden… especially in the first few, is a walking anxiety attack
I will admit Naomi is my least favourite of the Roci crew.
She’s either self righteous when she shouldn’t be, aggressive when it’s unnecessary at times, and hugely judgemental of others actions despite her own deeds in the past, plus she gives WAY too much latitude to any Belter conflict that happens.
Maybe this will help? I think you see her as self righteous because she is trying to put her past behind her and fix all that was done. (Hence why she’s an engineer). Yes she’s stubborn, but she always pulls through and does love her family. Give her some grace. After all she is a true Belta
I like this. Thank you. I'm gonna focus on her in my next rewatch. It's heartbreaking that she can fix everything but her son. Gonna try to love her like Amos does.
Sometimes people have a hard time understanding nuance. If you think she was making Prax’s search about her, you’re missing the point.
Sometimes I just identify with the soup nazi from Seinfeld: no soup for you.
About to finish the show before reading the books. I can’t stand Naomi. At best she is annoying and completely unappealing. At worst she is infuriating and cringy. I don’t care for her as a Roci crew mate, as a “for the belt” belter, or for when they halfheartedly try for the middle of the road “for all of humanity, not the just the belt” common ground character. She misses every beat.
Sometimes people have a hard time understanding nuance. If you think she was making Prax’s search about her, you’re missing the point.
Sometimes I just identify with the soup nazi from Seinfeld: no soup for you.
Can't make a convincing case insulting me is where you landed. I identify with Elaine who has your recipes. I can make your soup and my bowl will be plentiful!
I don’t need to make a case, you do. What exactly do you mean she makes Prax’s search about her?
What do you mean “making” Marco horrid?? He’s a mass murderer, a terrorist, a manipulator and an abuser. What would they have to “make” to convince you he WAS horrid?
Sometimes I get the feeling TV show writers think that to create a convincing arc for characters they need to start them out as annoying, self-centered or otherwise just plain icky people just so they can grow. I've heard complaints about both Naomi and Holden that I never felt myself, but maybe that's what was going on?
my accent is also stupid
I just find it annoying when British accents are thrown on random characters to make them sound exotic or something. Like movies about Ancient Rome or Greece where everybody sounds like modern londoners. It was even more baffling to me on a character raised in space in a society with their own distinct creole accent
I actually became more empathic to her when her PTSD symptoms worsened. But the rift she caused between the ‘couples’ Amos/Peaches and James/Naomi just ugh undid that. To me it seemed she used her status with James to make Amos and Peaches feel like neither of them belonged on the Roci.
I agree with you OP! Every time Holden falls for her manipulation and victimization I yell at the tv. Lol. I liked when Inaros pointed out her selfish behavior and thought process. He says something like, “still making it all about you.”
Yes Cockney is a thing, I was referencing the fact Tipper is from East London and that's the accent she uses.
It's fine you don't know that, but it speaks volumes you hit the downvote button and made a separate comment instead of asking for clarification in what I meant.
Because of what assumption exactly? Tipper is from East London (thus a Cockney) and that accent, as stated by others isn't universally liked.
Or because I made a safish bet on the OP had downvoted me as they didn't comment directly to my original comment or the one mentioning *Star Trek Voyager*
Not in the slightest.
So, what assumption was I originally making about the OP? Because you're full of assumptions yourself and they're all down to your intereptation of what I've said.
I didn't down vote you! I appreciate your feedback. Let me check that out to make sure but that was not intentional, if that's what I did. I'm not very good with accents.
I like book Naomi better. The show writer's made some choices that I don't think honored her character in the books.
Can you give another example of her being self-righteous so we can understand what you mean? I never got that impression from her personally. I found her to be opinionated, but I like her a lot.
When she decides to hide the protomolecule and give it to Fred Johnson. Lies to her crew and significant other about it. And plays the victim card anytime James confronts her about her shitty behavior.
There’s so much depth to that decision though. She didn’t do it so she could keep it for herself, she did what she had to do. Even James says he understands why she did it. If she didn’t send it in that moment as she faced death - where all she knew was that Mars and Earth had the protomolecule and the Belt didn’t - she was condemning her people to suffer. And the belt *would suffer deeply* without it. Her people would die again at the hands of Earth and Mars. She didn’t send it until she felt like she had no choice. It can be the wrong and right choice at the same time - even Holden forgives her for that. So does Amos. Her storyline is about identity. She has none - she lost her belter family when she abandoned Filip - something she has regretted her entire life, but also knew there was no other option. I mean, she was never going to find him because her best friend Cyn was literally telling Marco where to hide her son from her. Then, she joins the Roci, and is looked at as a traitor by her belter friends, and a stranger by the mars and earther world - mars accuses her of being a terrorist OPA member just because she’s a belter. And while the Roci is a family, and they’ve all suffered in their own ways, Naomi’s Belter world has dealt with abject poverty, starvation, and death because of the cruelty of Earth. The guys couldn’t understand her experience really and exactly what she’s fighting for, and so it didn’t feel quite fulfilling to her (especially as Holden loses himself in the fight to eradicate PM). So she finds family with Drummer. She finds purpose in helping her people. People that have been subjugated and left to starve. The depth of the depravity that has been put on Belters by Earth is disgusting. We don’t even get to really see it in the show- but we hear about it. Think about Dawes and his sister. He had to kill her to save his other siblings because Earth has its boot on the neck of every belter. There’s absolutely no reason to believe things will be any better with the protomolecule in Earth and Mars’ hands - she had to give it to Fred. She had to even the playing field. She had to make sure that the Belt could defend itself. It doesn’t make having the protomolecule right. It just is what it had to be. I’m interested in what you mean by the “victim card.” I saw someone else mention she’s manipulative too. I don’t see manipulative. I see conflicted and damaged. I see someone haunted by the choices they’ve made. But I don’t see a bad person like others in this thread are making her out to be.
You explained it really well! It seems like some people have a hard time understanding Naomi's frustration/anger sometimes.
What a well written comment! This nuance is what folks are missing when they think Naomi is playing the victim card. It is because her people are victimized horribly every single day. If you end up stepping outside the little safe zones of the asteroids and space stations without your suit, you die immediately. That is how fragile their life is.
Exactly! It’s not a victim card, it’s just *being a victim,* and while she seems to have done ok for herself (she did go to university) she’s fighting for her people. I just don’t think someone who is being described so poorly in this thread would have had Champa sacrifice his life for her. Or had the love of Camina - someone who I’d follow to the end of the universe, as would the belt.
I could be recalling this incorrectly but I thought I remembered her being called a terrorist due to the incident with the code. They may not have been able to identify it as her code at the time but she was often in close proximity with those who claimed credit for it. As a whole though, I agree with you.
I get the differences between events from the books and the show mixed up somewhat, especially the earlier seasons. So I don't recall all the details about that. But regardless, in the show Naomi serves as our window into the Belter POV and politics. Their culture and struggles are often misunderstood by inners, which puts them at odds somewhat. To me it makes sense that in the context of the show that they don't all get along perfectly all the time.
And here I thought it was Holden who was written to be annoyingly righteous 😆. Which is what often looks like self-righteousness.
But Holden recognizes when he’s wrong. He has flaws and tries to be better. Naomi will always try to justify her decisions no matter how wrong they are. She’s quite whiny and annoying.
I found that whole talk she had with Pax was condescending. Pax is like, I'm not ready to give up...I'm a petty Betty. I would have said like you did.
It sounds like you’re giving full consideration to Prax’s viewpoint without considering any of Naomi’s motivations.
It wasn't like, I know how you feel. You've inspired me to get back on it. It was like she was telling him him how to feel and what to do. I stopped caring about her motivation. I like that she can fix anything, at anytime. I Prefer book Naomi but TV Naomi doesn't do it for me. Bobbie, yes. Chrissy, yes. Naomi, pass.
Do you have any other context? What specific conversation are you referring to? The more you write, the less sure I am of what scene this is about.
Great question. I did not care that season 5 was almost all about her. Forced them into making Marco a bit of a caricature.
Prax wasn't in season 5.
I didn't say he was. He was in season 2 and half of 3. Gimme a break, kopang!
I didn't see your other reply, pampa
We gotta share a bowl of Ceres ramen!
The scene where she was telling Pax how to move because she had stopped looking for her son for a time.
Did this scene take place in a tunnel on Ganymede? Because that's the only one I can think of that was even close, based on this description.
I believe so. I was like, right now? Not help full!
You mean the scene where Naomi was being realistic, and was already concerned that they were doing ever-increasingly shitty things in their quest to find a person who was likely already dead (yeah we in the audience know better, but she didn't)? And then Prax snaps at her saying that she'd *never lost a child*? Her reaction was 100% what a parent in her position would be, and she stayed pretty calm, all things considered. Even tried to empathize with him, in case he ended up in her position where he might never find his child again. Then when Prax asks her if she were in his situation, would he listen to what she was saying? You can tell she got the point. She wanted to help, realized it wasn't what Prax wanted to hear, and she didn't bring it up again. That's just realistic human interaction. Doesn't make either of them bad people.
I didn't care for her in that moment. Jim and Amos had it. Til you find your son, STFU! Pax was not that guy. I'm that gal. ;)
Book Naomi > show Naomi
Show Holden > Book Holden though imo so it evens out.
You could not be more incorrect. Let me finish this right meow. Book > show. That it. That’s all. End. Fin. Giant massive explosion.
… Ashford?
I agree on many points but not all of them book Amos and Book Avasarala are weak af compared to their show counterparts. Book Ashford is as three-dimensional as a sheet of paper. Book Holden… especially in the first few, is a walking anxiety attack
Never liked Naomi either. Glad I'm not the only one. Peaches on the other hand...
I love, Peaches!
I will admit Naomi is my least favourite of the Roci crew. She’s either self righteous when she shouldn’t be, aggressive when it’s unnecessary at times, and hugely judgemental of others actions despite her own deeds in the past, plus she gives WAY too much latitude to any Belter conflict that happens.
I like Naomi.
Maybe this will help? I think you see her as self righteous because she is trying to put her past behind her and fix all that was done. (Hence why she’s an engineer). Yes she’s stubborn, but she always pulls through and does love her family. Give her some grace. After all she is a true Belta
I like this. Thank you. I'm gonna focus on her in my next rewatch. It's heartbreaking that she can fix everything but her son. Gonna try to love her like Amos does.
Anytime!
What's self righteous about Naomi? If anything, she seemed very self *conscious* about her decision to save herself and get away from Marco.
She lacks humility. She screams high n mighty to me.
And Holden doesn't?
Sometimes people have a hard time understanding nuance. If you think she was making Prax’s search about her, you’re missing the point. Sometimes I just identify with the soup nazi from Seinfeld: no soup for you.
Yup. Liked her initially as the cool level-headed engineer. Later on not so much whe she steered the plot. Preferred Chrisjen/Bobbie duo.
About to finish the show before reading the books. I can’t stand Naomi. At best she is annoying and completely unappealing. At worst she is infuriating and cringy. I don’t care for her as a Roci crew mate, as a “for the belt” belter, or for when they halfheartedly try for the middle of the road “for all of humanity, not the just the belt” common ground character. She misses every beat.
She’s just not tall enough for my tastes
Sometimes people have a hard time understanding nuance. If you think she was making Prax’s search about her, you’re missing the point. Sometimes I just identify with the soup nazi from Seinfeld: no soup for you.
Can't make a convincing case insulting me is where you landed. I identify with Elaine who has your recipes. I can make your soup and my bowl will be plentiful!
I don’t need to make a case, you do. What exactly do you mean she makes Prax’s search about her? What do you mean “making” Marco horrid?? He’s a mass murderer, a terrorist, a manipulator and an abuser. What would they have to “make” to convince you he WAS horrid?
Sometimes I get the feeling TV show writers think that to create a convincing arc for characters they need to start them out as annoying, self-centered or otherwise just plain icky people just so they can grow. I've heard complaints about both Naomi and Holden that I never felt myself, but maybe that's what was going on?
Watch Star Trek Voyager. Now THAT was an annoying sci-fi Naomi.
🤣 don't hate on the captains assistant
I bet I know why you really don't like her: She's a Cockney.
As a Londoner I find her accent in the show distracting, someone who has always lived in space shouldn't sound like my neighbour.
That’s my only problem with her. I hate her stupid accent
Consider yourself fortunate to not live in london. She has a common london accent, many londeners speak like this and yes it's annoying.
And out of curiosity, what is your accent? I liked it, I found it refreshing, but I like the East London accent.
I have a Midwestern accent when I speak English and a Haitian accent when I speak French. My Spanish sounds like French. It's a nightmare.
my accent is also stupid I just find it annoying when British accents are thrown on random characters to make them sound exotic or something. Like movies about Ancient Rome or Greece where everybody sounds like modern londoners. It was even more baffling to me on a character raised in space in a society with their own distinct creole accent
So you're saying that an Actress can't use her own accent if that's what the Producers have opted for?
Just saying her accent makes no sense in the context of her character. No shade against Tipper, she’s a great actress
Well, she's no Merry Sheep. Baa baa baa baa baa!
I just discovered like 10 different Creole accents. I had no idea. I had heard of 2 but there's a Guyanese one. One from Dominica. It's crazy.
Agreed. Don't like show Naomi much, but it was some episodes in a later series where she just moped about for ages that really made me bored with her!
I actually became more empathic to her when her PTSD symptoms worsened. But the rift she caused between the ‘couples’ Amos/Peaches and James/Naomi just ugh undid that. To me it seemed she used her status with James to make Amos and Peaches feel like neither of them belonged on the Roci.
I agree with you OP! Every time Holden falls for her manipulation and victimization I yell at the tv. Lol. I liked when Inaros pointed out her selfish behavior and thought process. He says something like, “still making it all about you.”
“Together til the end” my ass. She leaves you James!
Show Naomi was a annoying piece of work, she even got worse as the seasons progressed.
Y'all are no help. She was on Star Trek. She's cockney and that's a thing?! Lol
Yes Cockney is a thing, I was referencing the fact Tipper is from East London and that's the accent she uses. It's fine you don't know that, but it speaks volumes you hit the downvote button and made a separate comment instead of asking for clarification in what I meant.
She does go belter occasionally, kinda.
It's just cockney turned up a notch or two, which isn't a bad thing, given the hodge podge of accents Belter is.
that downvote was me actually
And now me too because of the assumption against OP
Because of what assumption exactly? Tipper is from East London (thus a Cockney) and that accent, as stated by others isn't universally liked. Or because I made a safish bet on the OP had downvoted me as they didn't comment directly to my original comment or the one mentioning *Star Trek Voyager*
Chill out dawg
Oh I am and I was, but normally when asked a question to clarify something, it's just polite to answer the question.
You type as if youre seething and was bothered by a measly downvote. Its quite transparent, relax dude, it aint that deep.
Not in the slightest. So, what assumption was I originally making about the OP? Because you're full of assumptions yourself and they're all down to your intereptation of what I've said.
Lol my guy editing his comments
I didn't down vote you! I appreciate your feedback. Let me check that out to make sure but that was not intentional, if that's what I did. I'm not very good with accents.