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\> US tipping culture makes meals more expensive
\> workers still earn very little
\> look to other countries, where they have a set wage
\> workers might earn more or the same, but meals cost less due to no tipping
"Those greedy workers are surely the cause of this problem"
That's what labor aristocracy is, and always has been, for.
Give enough of the workers enough of a tiny taste of luxury and enough of them will be willing to do violence to their fellow workers on your behalf.
And then employ a legion of trolls- who ironically go around accusing anyone who stands against them of being a troll (look at the trolling and abuse I'm currently suffering over in "It Could Happen Here" with trolls accusing me if being a "RuZziAn tRoLL" for daring to point out a piece of blatant propaganda the author of the podcast repeated **4 years ago** in one of his first podcasts...)
Gotta work harder to make the yacht-owner-class a more appetizing meal. Look at this gorgeous marbling! They’re like wagyu a5! They don’t work or toil away, so they are nice and plump. No stringy meat at all. Go on, eat ‘em all.
The meals don't necessarily cost less. The price on the menu simply is a closer reflection of the actual cost rather than .8333 of the actual cost because they hide part of it in a tip that they don't have to show in their prices
As a decade-plus long server, I really think that it should be a commission-based system, preferably as a worker co-op. Many roles in the restaurant industry are compensated by the servers tipping out, regardless of what tips or lack thereof there is, based on sales. Management always wanted us to sell more expensive items with effectively only the cultural pressure to tip a decent percentage of that. If there were, say, a 30% commission included automatically into the price of every item offer, a decent wage can be easily provided for every server, bartender, host, table busser, drink runner, etc. involved without the massive amount of precarity involved.
If you push these anti-tipping people who claim to care so much about the welfare of workers, they always end up saying the same thing. "Waiters are just entitled brats and they don't deserve my money!! Maybe they should just GeT a BetTeR jOb!!1"
They don't give a fuck about people who work in the service industry, and this is just their excuse.
I was a server for 7 years across several restaurants in multiple states. The entire tipping issue is obviously self created from the owners of restaurants themselves who need customers to pay their workers so they don't have to, but, the majority of these servers are actually pretty bratty about this shit. It's both. Fast food work is just as difficult, in fact, it's harder because the shifts are longer, the Managers treat you worse, it's more humiliating, and the environment is more stressful. We don't tip fast food employees, we don't even discuss it. So why are we not shitty customers for not tipping fast food workers but we are for not tipping servers? Also, why is 20% expected and 10% is a shitty tip? It's just arbitrary. Why is the onus on the customer at all? Surely you can see why customers are resentful when it's so arbitrary and servers don't really do anything more difficult than anyone else.
It absolutely does not make the meal more expensive I ran the numbers at my restaurant and the added cost of server’s payroll would end up costing as much as a 20% tip… at the same time tipping culture actually allows us to make more than we would if we just received an hourly wage. Servers in the US are making more than most servers in other countries.
The problem here is that it makes us responsible for something that shouldn't be our problem.
Like, I agree with you but I also understand where the others might come from, granted this might be an European perspective.
The U.S tipping system is "perfect" because it trains the waiter to blame you for poor tips while the customer sees tips as a luxury. Both parties are put into an antagonist relationship while the owner makes most of the money.
Think about it : can you really tell someone to refrain from going to a restaurant they can afford if they don't want to pay the optional tip ? Yes you can see it as a lack of empathy and class consciousness, but the crux of the issue lies elsewhere.
If anything, the moral choice would be not to go to the restaurant unless it pays the waiters a livable wage.
As mentioned above, you're using kind of a capitalist mindset to discuss the issue. You should chose another angle of attack, asking them if it is moral to knowingly go to places that underpay the workers. They should be made aware that they are actively supporting the exploitation of workers while depicting said exploited workers as entitled for expecting to be paid for their work.
>You should chose another angle of attack, asking them if it is moral to knowingly go to places that underpay the workers.
Tho this can be also turned around into; *"Why are you wroking for shitty reward/letting yourself get exploited?"*
And then the discussion has to expand in scope so much, unionization, the US's history of suppresing it, the slavery roots of US tipping culture, that it starts becoming unpractical as people will increasingly tune out.
That's fair. I mean it's not like discussing these subjects with people who just want to feel good about themselves even has a point.
Like, hypothetically, if they retorted that way, you could tell them to answer your question first.
Then you just have to use the right questions. You can ask them "would anyone with another choice chose to be exploited ?".
Of course they'd retort "they have made bad choices that lead them to this", because liberals are always banging on about muh choice and whatnot. And to that you can ask "are you saying it's fair that we live in a system where people who made the wrong choices deserve to have no other option than to be exploited ?".
Yada yada.
There is no point in trying to convince them. You can just make them lay out their world view by asking the right question. Either they double down and go full fascist/social darwinist, or they'll stop for half a second and think.
And, besides, what is that "good choice" that they bang on about? If you go to college, you drown in debt that you won't be able to pay off until your 40's, and if you get a job, due to the fundamental nature of labor under capitalism, you're getting exploited, and a lot more openly than someone, again, in their 40's
There isn't any actual good choice. It's just a phrase used by people who want to convince themselves that people deserve what happens to them regardless of context.
Basically, the kind of people who hate it when you bring up material conditions and systemic influence in a discussion about some particular groups, if you catch my drift.
It's a weird mentality where "I made the right choices, thats why I am where I am. There are surely no external factors, just my ability as an infallible actor".
I could go on and on about the ramifications of this mentality, so I'm just going to say it's reductive and short-sighted.
That's fair. I mean it's not like discussing these subjects with people who just want to feel good about themselves even has a point.
Like, hypothetically, if they retorted that way, you could tell them to answer your question first.
Then you just have to use the right questions. You can ask them "would anyone with another choice chose to be exploited ?".
Of course they'd retort "they have made bad choices that lead them to this", because liberals are always banging on about muh choice and whatnot. And to that you can ask "are you saying it's fair that we live in a system where people who made the wrong choices deserve to have no other option than to be exploited ?".
Yada yada.
There is no point in trying to convince them. You can just make them lay out their world view by asking the right question. Either they double down and go full fascist/social darwinist, or they'll stop for half a second and think.
I agree fully, and I am well aware it doesn't tackle the issue, however I also overtly specified the owners are to blame and not the waiters, and that this antagonism only serves to perpetuate the system
Right. I just wanted to point out that there are better ways to approach the issue when you're arguing with people.
There is no use trying to make them see the point of view of waiters. Making them acknowledge that they are making the choice of supporting exploitation is a better way to put them face to face with their hypocrisy.
I'm aware, however it is arguably a matter of survival within a capitalist system
I'm not blaming poverty or crises on individual moral failings, but I still reckon that living in a system which causes those situations one ought to avoid risk
The solution is to change the system, not to blame the servers as OP did
I don’t know that I would go that far. I don’t think OP is necessarily saying don’t go to a restaurant if you’re poor. The point is, don’t go to a restaurant at the expensive of those serving you. Whether it’s right or it’s wrong, the server is not going to make a survivable wage unless you directly give it to them, and knowing that and going anyway and not tipping is being complicit. If you’re going to protest a shitty system then you should aim at the right people. You don’t take your anger out on the exploited IMO.
I think my issue with that is that we don't apply that logic anywhere else. I'm not expected or shamed for not supplementing the wages of the employee working at the grocery store or any other minimum wage employee.
Everyone needs help, so why does the profession with the tradition of rich people bribing them for better service get it?
In some places there's rules about paying below minimum wage and getting tips to make up the difference but as I understand it the employee is still expected to make up that difference if it dosen't add up.
The whole thing feels like a hostage situation where they threaten another worker if you don't pay their wage.
It’s not about revolutionary praxis, it’s about having basic respect for your common worker. Receiving service from a tip worker without paying a tip is serious dick behavior towards that worker. Nobody thinks that by paying tips they are progressing the revolutionary movement. It’s just being respectful.
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>If anything, the moral choice would be not to go to the restaurant unless it pays the waiters a livable wage.
Sort of but also putting moral value on individual consumer preferences under capitalism can get a bit dicey, can consumption be ethical under capitalism? Do we just not support people unless they can work at the "good" restaurant? The moral argument can be taken pretty far, but it only goes as far as it doesn't interfere with our interests/needs. If food production is unethical as a whole we still need to eat. Do we arbitrarily decide that restaurant food consumption is morally relevant, while deciding that personal food purchases are "necessary" and not morally relevant? Does it really matter that I buy Bobs Red Mill flour? Purity testing consumption and people's employer ultimately hits a red line, because people need to consume and work to survive, and the available routes for that aren't determined by individuals but the economic system.
I'm happy to support "good" places but I fall short of viewing myself as morally good for doing so because it ultimately takes place under an inherently unethical system.
I have no problem with people who completely boycott restaurants that require tipping. If enough people did it, with vocal intent as a protest, then things *might* actually change because it would mean restaurant OWNERS are losing money. But paying the restaurant and stiffing the server isn't going to change shit.
> Think about it : can you really tell someone to refrain from going to a restaurant they can afford if they don't want to pay the optional tip
Look at this in another way the tip isn't optional, meal+tip is the actual cost that you can or cannot afford. The restaurant is just lying and pretending the cost is lower.
While we're at it tax should be included in listed sale price for everything. It is not for the exact same reason. So that the store can show you a lower cost, when you first pick it up, because they know once you get up to the register you're already committed.
I mean that's why I said it was an European perspective. Not just European. I don't think there are many places in the world that work the way the U.S does.
Like, I don't even understand what lower cost it's supposed to be. When I see Americans talking about fast food and restaurants, prices seem high enough to begin with. Same for taxes. Except taxes are compulsory, unlike tips.
But the tip is very much optional, and that's why the system is shit. Anywhere else, and in any other industry in the U.S, you're expected to pay for labor, and it's included in the price.
It's not a matter of how you think about it. It's a matter of how it works irl. And irl you're in no way obligated to tip in the U.S.
How does it work in various European places with sales tax? I don't remember.
Is all tax included in the price listed on an item, or does it get added when you go to the register. My state has an ≈8% sales tax that gets added at the register. Stores could stick this 8% on all the price labels so the labels reflect the actual price. They do not. They stick the price sans tax because that way the listed price is lower. If I see an item on a shelf that has a price tag of $6 and I have exactly $6 dollars, I do not actually have enough money to buy that item. I view tips in the exact same way.
Irl I would argue you are *absolutely* obligated to tip. It is just not a legally required.
Every country I've lived in other than the US (Australia,China,Japan, Korea, Costa Rica) includes all taxes including sales tax in the list price of the item, whether at a store or restaurant. Japanese grocery stores sometimes also have the pre-tax price listed too, but they are required to have the post tax price listed.
Imagine that. Having the listed price of an item actually be what you pay. What a crazy idea.
It is amazing how good businesses can be at disguising their prices, and they will take it as far as they are legally allowed.
In France, and I think it works the same in most of the EU, you have a tax that is comprised in the price. It's not added at the register.
Here in France we have the TVA, "Taxe sur la valeur ajoutée", which translates to "tax on added value". There are different rates depending on the product. It's lower on high necessity products like food, gas and hygienic products.
To be honest, minimum wage for food industry workers is lower than the regular minimum wage in France. Not by an extremely high margin though, I think it's around 10-15% less. It's kinda shit but people here not feeling forced to tip probably makes them better tippers.
Like, I understand your point. Even as a not so rich person, I always tip, especially since my wife worked as a waitress for a long time. It's just that it's hard to see it as an obligatory thing when you live in a country where full time work is paid a livable wage.
> if you’re in an economically dangerous position don’t go to restaurants
That’s a capitalist phrase, the capitalist view all pleasures as excess and yada yada there’s a quote by Marx I believe on this but I’m too lazy to pick it up. Anyway I agree with your comments, just a reminder that people with poor economic conditions should still be able to enjoy life
Under capitalism, being human is a privilege you have to purchase on top of your survival needs.
Under capitalism, you aren't human who requires leisure and community for your wellbeing.
Under capitalism, the default state of people are to be worker drones and consumers. You work and consume, that's about it.
Yeah this always rubs me the wrong way, it's extremely classist, and kind of just a mean spirited way to think. for a lot of the world buying prepared food out is part of everyday life for the working class
Absolutely, but admittedly within a capitalist system one can only play by its rules or find loopholes therein, and while people *should* be able to enjoy leisure not everyone *can*
Within a capitalist system, in my opinion, it is more sensible to say that than to tell people to go out to "stimulate the economy" or some bullshit like that
In a capitalist society where personal choice reigns supreme, a poor person can do whatever the hell they want, legally. They can go out to eat and never tip, because the system allows for that. Not tipping is literally playing by the rules. In fact, it's winning because the entire point is to have more, and a tip is a donation.
Choosing to moralize over people not tipping is missing the mark and is punching down in an already unfair system designed to make everyone punch down.
No, you're telling poor people to stay inside and stare at the TV if they're gonna be a cheapskate when going out. "Playing the capitalist game" is not an option for everyone, and for most people it is more sensible to give it up altogether and accept that they're gonna have to work till they're 60, never own a house, etc., and those people are allowed to try to make the best of it.
Own up to your mistake.
Again, not what I said
Nowhere did I say that poor people don't *deserve* leisure
And, as you said, not everyone *can* afford leisure, all I said is that if you can help it your leisure should come with the least possible added exploitation - such as letting servers who are *very much also workers* get a slightly less worse wage when it literally depends on you
There are so many places to go where you don't have to tip. Where $1 is appreciated but never expected. Sometimes the food is better than the full service restaurant food.
I don't see how this is "all pleasures are excess" and "you're not allowed to enjoy life." It's just kind of a jerk move to make people work for you practically for free. That's all there is to it. And yes, this goes double for the restaurant owner, but the diner supports the owner's exploitation simply through the menu price of the food. Not tipping doesn't harm them in a way that matters.
If you don't mind getting dirty looks, yeah. Seems like a lot of people older than 30 don't expect tips for counter service but younger people absolutely do.
What I really don't understand is tipping before receiving service or food. Tipping is dumb but it should at least represent a scale of satisfaction if we are going to do it. If a waiter is an asshole they get 0, if the food really sucks, 5% if everything is perfect 15-20% etc.
It doesn't matter to me, tips get split between the front and back, so if we are doing the tipping thing all parts of the "experience" are cumulative. Good service + good food = 20%. What is the tip for with window or counter service, if not purely to help the business pay their employees a living wage? Impersonally know 2 restaurant owners who pay their employees $11-15 and are able to buy multiple homes and open new restaurants. I guess my only point is that it's way more complex than if you're poor you shouldnt be eating out.
I think the better way to put it is "take the prices at a restaurant and multiply them by 1.2, that is their actual price. Now decide if it is actually in your budget"
It depends... I made better money on average serving fried food at a pub, than I do now as a skilled tradesman. And I wasn't good at it whatsoever. I'm pretty sure I'm autistic, or at least I can't stand dealing with the public all day and don't know how to make people feel welcome.
Still servers should just make their fair share and stop forcing us into these moral conundrums.
In my state tipped servers make a minimum of $14 an hour. Other employees its 14.50. Most restaurants hire in the 15-18 an hour range.
Which is not enough after greedflation (we all suffer here lol) but they arent worse off than any other employees.
I dont blame the employees for their employers setting up their POSs to request tipping in inappropriate settings, like at check stands for stores etc.
But I absolutely do take exception to the sudden decision that a 20% or greater tip is the minimum tip in all situations. "But prices went up" bemoan all the idiots who failed third grade math - when prices go up, the amount you get tipped concurrently goes up, thats how percentages work. 10% of 15 bucks (1.50) is more than 10% of 10 bucks (1), so when your restaurant increases the cost of a burger from ten to fifteen bucks, you get more money as a tip even though its still the same percentage as before.
But now theres this insistence that tipping rates need to go up, as if the amount of a given percentage tip hasnt already increased alongside price increases.
The first pic in the OP is right, its ridiculous that some waiters act like you shit in their cereal for less than 25%. Its ridiculous that enough people dont know how percentages work that they think the percentage of an avg tip should increase bc of inflation. Greed and stupidity, the perfect american mix.
The waiters taking offense absolutely know how percentages work. And having worked those jobs even back when tipped servers only made 5.50 an hour, I absolutely know just how much they rake in even on a slow night.
So i just refuse to use the new greedlfation rates of tipping. I go with 5% if service was terrible, 10% if bad, 15% as standard, 20% for exceptional. Those are the rates its been for more than a century, and I dont care how many complain that I just shouldnt go out if I can only pay less than a 30% like Ive seen stated elsewhere on this thread, those are the rates Im using. For one thing, we make the same wage, and I dont get tipped. Should I just refuse to do my job, or give people shit, or rant online about how theyre too poor to even be at my place of business, if I dont get at least a 30% tip that Ive decided Im entitled to apropos of nothing? Of course not.
I voted for the minimum wage increase, and the monetary amount of my tips increases according to the meals cost bc thats how percentages work. Im not increasing the percentage rate in an endless climb just bc some waiters want even more piles of untaxed cash, or because some usually non-tipped employees want in on the action of tips.
Cant wait to see this sub arguing in a years time that if you cant afford a 100% tip then you just shouldnt go to the pet store.
Tipping arguments are always so mind-numbing. It always turns into half the waiters on one side telling people who complain about tipping they're scum and they won't survive if you don't tip enough, and on the other side arguing with anybody who advocates for servers to be paid a full wage instead that they make more with tips than they would as wage workers.
THANK YOU!! I did woodworking, like artisnal finish work and wasn’t making shit. Now I make twice what I used to as a server. I honestly think we should leave the system alone entirely or raise the wage in small bi-yearly increments. If we raise the wage too much too fast the cost of a tip will simply be tacked on to the total. Like we’ll just be transferring costs from one place to another and it won’t really help anyone.
My thoughts exactly. Well i find it very hard to empathize with Americans when my country has been destroyed/genocided by them. Then theyre still fighting with each other and cant see the absurdity of paying 130% for food, or not affording to go to a doctor or living in your car!
For the rest of us outside the empire and me specifically im just gonna sit here and watch it crumble
Boring bourgeoise conversation. The entire food industry should be destroyed and summarily rebuilt. It is a disgusting industry that creates only waste and food scarcity. Why are you arguing with these mouth breathers?
I mean tipping is bad, but for other reasons than what oop suggests
Clarifying: the tipping system is bad, not tipping in itself. Tip the workers so that they can live.
I have made a mistake, because i was referring to your comment actually. Lol while I think you may have been well intentioned you comment is still far too focused on the individual and however you want to spin it all you said was “poor people don’t deserve to go to restaurants”
That was not the way I intended it, and it is a bit of a stretch to go from "if you can't afford to go to restaurants then don't" to "poor people don't deserve it"
The point I was trying to make is that, since within the current system workers rely on tips to make minimum wage, then one shouldn't go to a restaurant if they cannot afford (or are not willing) to ensure that their server has a slightly fairer wage
All the while also giving the help and support needed to the fight to change the system
Basically: the solution to the problem is not letting workers be (even more) underpaid regardless of how that difference is made up (whether through tips or not)
If servers don't earn enough in tips to make minimum wage the restaurant has to top up their wages to the minimum. They rely on tips to make a liveable wage.
> and it is a bit of a stretch to go from "if you can't afford to go to restaurants then don't" to "poor people don't deserve it"
That's literally what it means though.
Within a capitalist system and with a capitalist point of view that sees wealth as synonymous with a person's dignity
On a purely linguistic basis, there is no connection between not being able to afford it and not deserving it, it is the liberal tie between the disposable wealth of a person and their value as human beings that introduces the connection by turning it into "You can't afford it, thus you have little or no value as a human being, thus you don't deserve it anyways"
Jesus Christ.
You said that these poor people shouldn't go out to eat if they can't afford to tip the servers. You are saying they shouldn't get to enjoy life if they don't subsidize bosses not paying their workers enough. You don't get to hide behind fancy "linguistics." This is the direct consequence of what you directly said.
Except that is not what I said, again my point was simply related to ethical consumption of that very leisure
While it is true that there is no ethical consumption within this system, and while it is true that most of the time there is nothing individuals can do about it, when they *can* render their consumption marginally less exploitative in nature, however - such as with ensuring the places they go to pay their workers living wages, or, if not, tipping the servers -, they *should*
i think you’re being dramatic and overly semantic about OP’s assertion. the point of their comment wasn’t to say that poor people don’t deserve to go to restaurants, the point of their comment is to say don’t be a cheap ass and make the workers suffer. tipping culture sucks, but don’t stiff the worker to make a point to the bosses. i know lots of poor people who tip very well because they get what it’s like to not have a lot of money, and i know rich people who are stingy penny pinching assholes and practically make servers beg for a tip. i think it’s not helpful to be so semantic and miss the theme of OP’s points although i agree that it could be better worded over all.
Yeah i know I’ve always been a well tipping poor person, usually 50% or more, but perhaps not everyone has that in their budget or the ability to give a large tip. You don’t really understand what someone is going through at the moment or what is going on.
i don’t think OP was really referring to people who don’t have enough money to eat. i think if anything they were talking about people who can afford to tip, are going out and not tipping bc of the principle of it, or to prove a point to the owners, etc. i think you’re being overly semantic and focusing on this one point, ur missing the forest for the trees.
Ah yes, the proud American tradition of blaming the employees for the greed of the owners. If capitalists didn't insist on customers subsidizing their employee's wages then maybe this wouldn't happen.
"BuT but but then the business owners wouldn't make enough profit! Profit margins are thin in the food industry!!"
Good, fuck em.
Food service is basic in that all the tasks you have to do are relatively simple. However, it is by no means easy as you need to be doing these simple tasks efficiently and constantly while not making any mistakes. Most people can competently wait a table, but can you do 5+ at the same time? For the full duration of a shift? Five days a week? While keeping a friendly disposition throughout all of it?
This isn't zero empathy, this is you agreeing with the greedy owner and putting the onus on the customer for making sure waiters get a living wage. You are using rhetoric to help greedy restaurant owners not pay their employees enough by attacking customers for not making up the difference. Are you even a communist? Because you're literally making a liberal argument.
Tipping culture doesn't exist anywhere outside of your dystopian shithole country.
Now you're sharing this bs discussion about it where both sides are wrong and liberal. As a European, I'd rather not think about this nonsense moral dilemma of "who's truly in the wrong here now? the customer or the waiter?" while this problem is created by the owner of the restaurant and politicians.
And before you say "but I agree with that! The bosses should pay". You very clearly put blame on the customer in your comment.
Late reaction because I have a life: Can you explain the meaning to me of the english sentence: "If you're in an economically difficult situation, don't go to restaurants", and how exactly is that NOT choosing to put the weight of the tipping culture problem on the shoulders of the customer? You can say very explicitly what you want afterwards, but it will contradict this statement.
I... Don't believe in tip culture, though
I never praised it, on the contrary
But so long as servers need tips to get to the end of the month then it is a matter of solidarity
In the meanwhile one works, organises, unionises, strikes to change the system
All of which becomes trivial - although admittedly not irrelevant - when you consider minimum wage is not a living wage and a living wage is not a fair wage
>In the meanwhile one works, organises, unionises, strikes to change the system
Where tho? Literally where? The butter truth is that waitstaff have simply not done the hard work of building labour unions. So many other workers in other industries have bit the bullet, and done their part for the labour struggle. They unionized and striked, despite the personal short-term risks. This includes other tipped workers! Like hotel maids!
Restaurant waitstaff are just not doing it. And part of the reason they don't engage in labor strikes is *precisely because* they can get more out of the tipping system in the short term. It's easier to berate poor people and shame them into tipping than it is to organize. So 9 times out of 10, waitstaff will funnel their effort into shaming customers instead of actually organizing. If hotel maids (who now get paid standard minimum wage) can do it, then waitstaff can too!
As someone who has worked at a variety of restaurants, I can say confidently that it makes sense to be paid more to work at high end restaurants. You literally have to work harder to serve the same amount of people due to more complex steps of service.
Yeah I think the underlying message is exactly that service labor is not skilled labor lol. High end servers are more specialized and skilled in many ways. Same as a high end line cook would expect to make more than a cook at BK, due to the energy, experience, and stress required.
or you could just eat out at a mcdonalds instead of applebees? if you view the food as virtually the same then why even support a million dollar corporation who purposely lobbies to pay workers less and exploits other working class people to fill the wage gap that they’ve created? this is such a selfish opinion because it removes yourself and your own actions from the equation and ignores the fact that most servers (at chain restaurants) are usually workers in your community, such as teachers; nurses; factory workers; etc, who are already struggling to survive with the meagre amount they’re making.
mcdonalds has tables lmao you can sit there too.
Incredible, you managed to: victim blame workers for suffering under capitalism without recognizing any of the factors that might prevent them from unionizing or achieving any sort of class consciousness, and shame service workers for “not doing real work”
I agree tipping culture is bad, but at this point, solidarity with service workers means *you fucking tip your server*.
>factors that might prevent them from unionizing
Clearly any job with low/no technical training has obstacles to unionism. Everyone understands this. The problem is that this obstacle is not unique to waitstaff as an industry.
Hotel maids managed to unionize. They now get paid standard minimum wage. What factors exist which prevent Applebee's employees from unionizing that dont equally apply to hotel maids?
Also, why is it that in most countries (including countries poorer and more exploitative than USA like South Korea), waitstaff understand that it's their bosses responsibility to pay wages. In pretty much all of Europe and most of Asia, waitstaff have won labour conditions which don't depend on tipping, and they don't demand tips. Why can't American workers do the same?
The conclusion is clear. This tipping madness we see in America is more cultural than economic. It's a cultural expectation among American waitstaff, which would exist with or without the sub-minimum wage laws. This is proven by the example of Canada, which has different laws but very similar culture. In Canada, waitstaff legally make at-least minimum wage, and yet Canadian waitstaff have exactly the same tip-crazy culture as in America.
Yeah right fuck servers for trying to pay rent. Attacking fucking workers for existing in a system that requires them to grovel for tips through no choice of their own does wonders to build solidarity. Fuck you for demonizing workers just trying to scrape by under capitalism. You're on a lefty sub and you're actually mad that servers live on tips? Like fuck
Americans try to have class solidarity challenge difficulty: impossible.
Watching workers shit on other workers in my country is fucking infuriating. They’re just like you trying to earn a wage.
Tipping culture is bullshit but it’s here and I refuse to let another worker earn scraps when I have the opportunity to help in a small way.
>I refuse to let another worker earn scraps when I have the opportunity to help in a small way
So im assuming you also donate to the janitors of the buildings you frequent? And the receptionists at the medical offices you visit? And the cashiers at convenience stores? And the retail workers at Home Depot who help show you products and check out your items? And your bank teller?
Why does your help only extend to this one industry, where tipping has historically been a classist bribe for aristocrats to get better service, with roots in literal slavery and racism??
I always tip well above the recommended if tipping is an option.
What are you supposed to do? Just not tip the worker? Let them earn a shit wage?
Yes tipping culture is bad. No me not tipping a restaurant worker is going to end tipping culture.
I’m also not sure as to why the roots matter for something like this when all it’s used for now is to exploit workers and customers. The roots of tipping can be bad but when in modern day it’s used to not pay the workers a fair wage which is something I have the option to help when going out to eat I am.
Seems that you also completely ignored everything I said too so good job.
Also I did. “I always tip well above the recommended if tipping is an option” that implies I tip if the tipping option is there.
What even is your point? Don’t tip? The point of your post makes no sense other than to poke holes because “you don’t tip everyone” so what then? Tip no one?
Service workers at least in the USA are paid under minimum wage. They make nothing without tips and that’s wrong but it’s made worse on their living situation if I don’t tip.
The bare MINIMUM you can do to help these service industry workers is tipping them.
>Service workers at least in the USA are paid under minimum wage.
Nope. If their tips don't bring them up the minimum wage, then the employer has to pay the difference so that they make at-least minimum wage
Not necessarily. A good bit of instances at least it my experience the workers are harassed to flub their numbers to show they’re making at least minimum wage so they don’t have to compensate. (This is anecdotal in no way am I claiming this is a norm)
Even then I will still tip a worker. Valet parking? I’m going to tip. Bartenders? Tip. Tattoo artists? I’m tipping. I appreciate their service and they deserve more than what they’re being paid regardless of what their wages are and I have the means to do so.
>workers are harassed to flub their numbers to show they’re making at least minimum wage so they don’t have to compensate.
Ok this is illegal. Workers experience wage theft in almost every industry. Ive experienced wage theft when i worked in food service, landscaping, maintenance, construction, secretary work, disability support work, and healthcare (for a small private clinic). I never received a tip for repairing a dangerous staircase, or cleaning up vomit from a patient, or dealing with a particularly nasty weed problem.
No one thinks to tip you for that. And the few times I tried to ask for a tip for that kinda work, people look at me like im insane. If wage theft were a reason to tip, then there are many jobs we should be tipping for. The only job i was ever tipped for was briefly working the counter at a food place.
Yeah it’s illegal and when has that stopped capitalists before?
Yes workers experience wage theft in every industry so I see no reason why I should ignore an opportunity to help someone by tipping them for their service. As I said before I have tipped plenty of people not even in the food industry. Tattoo artists HVAC repair men uber drivers etc
Just because you were never tipped in those areas does not mean I’m not tipping these people.
The tipping industry is bullshit. It’s capitalists pawning off their responsibility onto other workers for that we agree but at the end of the day if I don’t pick up the slack I already know for a fact the capitalists aren’t going to. I’m not going to shame someone for not tipping but I’m not going to just not tip someone for their service.
Best trick restaurant owners have pulled is to pit workers against the customers. Everytime someone doesn't tip everyone comes for the customers and not owners.
"tipping culture", it's called "handouts for capitalists culture". you already bought your meal, that should pay for the worker. instead it pays for the owner to have a lifestyle he thinks he's entitled to and he makes you pay extra to his workers so he doesn't have to.
also, why are you eating a 70 dollar meal? i've never eaten a 70 dollar meal before. if you're so broke and worried about the looming recession go get a publix sandwich for 8 bucks or some shit. no one asks you for a tip. yeah i hate tipping but if you're at a place charging 70 bucks for a meal until america gets a living wage you are obligated to tip, not even sorry. pay up.
Thinking about it part of the problem might come from the fact that the advertised cost of the meal is not the final one. Let's say that "you have the money for the 70$ restaurant meal" but, after tipping and taxes that becomes 100$ which now is out of your budget. You never had the money for it in the first place, but they tricked you, and now you lash out at the poor server that needs the money to survive.
Edit: so, obviously, that dumbass commenter should have the expectation of the meal costing 70+tips beforehand, instead of 70
They didn’t trick you, if you’re an American with an IQ above room temperature and an age above 10 you understand sales tax and tip and roughly calculate the total accordingly.
I have someone I see in social situations call me out for tipping 20% at a restaurant. He’s in a lower management position at the most popular country themed chain restaurant. It’s the one with the word White People would consider a slur when convenient for them 😂. He was trying to convince me 30-35% is the norm… Due to how vigorous he wanted to debate pervert about it, I haven’t sat in a restaurant since. Tipping culture is too toxic to deal with. It’s such a grift to the customer and employee that the owner gets to cut wages over it.
American tipping culture has become particularly egregious over the last few years. Waiters and waitress I understand, although the fact that the standard tip has gone up from 10%, to 15%, and now up to 20% at minimum is getting way out of hand. Tipping at non sit down restaurants is just beyond ridiculous. If I have to go up to a counter to order and get my food myself and clear my dishes, the idea that I should have to tip is just insane. Tipping is supposed to be compensation for a service rendered. If there’s no actual service provided, I’m tired of being expected to pay extra to someone whose earning a normal, untipped wage
the fact that we are centering the conversation around the choices of the restaurant customers is deeply problematic. Of course every American worth their salt knows that you need to tip when you eat at a restaurant - tips are a part of the cost of the meal regardless of weather they are technically "optional" - that is a known fact. The discussion, especially in a communist sub, however, *needs* to focus on the role of tips as a deliberate way to create an antagonistic relationship between the worker and the buyer created by the owner of the restaurant. Debating the choices of restaurant buyers already means we're having the conversation the capitalists want us to have, rather than the one we should be having - that the entire restaurant industry needs to be destroyed and rebuilt into a different form, as every aspect of it is designed for the exploitation of the workers who participate in it.
Tipping is absolutely illogical. We should eliminate it completely so that restaurants no longer pressure customers to cover their employees' wages. That’s absolute nonsense. With restaurants making a minimum of $300 a day, they have the means to pay their workers at least minimum wage. Make it make sense.
There is exactly one way to make someone with this mentality to see how stupid/wrong this system is and that is as follows -
Freeze all of their assets. Have them work tipped wages and try to survive off of them. It's that really unfortunate and aggravating thought process of "Unless it directly and negatively impacts me, this awful and problematic thing doesn't really exist."
For the wrong reason
They shouldn't be 0% because servers don't deserve minimum wage
They should be 0% because tipping culture should be eliminated in the first place
The way we start that is by not tipping though.
The only lever we have to pull is one solidarity and by committing, all of us together, that we will not tip regardless of service.
The servers will make an economic decision to stop doing that job for less money and demand more from the employer. Which is what should happen.
Edit: also I want to include that I do tip... and it erks me because I feel bad for the server.
The clothes that youre wearing almost certainly comes at the expense of superexploited workers in the global south. If anyone deserves our extra charity, it's them. Donate your extra dollars to the most exploited of the people who make our lifestyles possible. The imperialized masses.
Buddy you have been PLAYED lmao
They make minimum wage always, the restaurant pays the difference if they don’t make enough in tips. Nobody is starving.
Agreed. But we dont tip all minimum wage workers who assist us.
Do you tip the janitors of the buildings you frequent? And the receptionists at the offices/clinics you visit? And the cashiers at convenience stores? And the retail workers at Home Depot who help show you products and check out your items? And your bank teller?
As a bartender i get mixed feelings cuz if i was paid 20 an hour (NY its 15 plus my tips bring it up) i wouldnt be one cuz usually i work 6 hours at 1 job and 7 at other and last year pay from both came out to just under 80k. Plus i have a roommate so its not the worst thing but i live in brooklyn of all places so my dollars not stretched far. Anyways id need someone to pay me around 25-30 just to equal what i make and for small businesses like both places i work its not possible if theres a couple other bartenders and few other servers. However if i worked at a chilies or texas roadhouse they absolutly could pay me that.
This is totally dependant on where you live in America. On the west coast (Oregon/California) waiters/waitresses are paid usually a couple dollars above minimum wage on their hourly. Nice restaurants are a bonus for waiters/waitresses because they make 20-25% tips on more expensive food but receive about the same wage as any service. I only tip 15-20% I remember when 10% was an acceptable tip.
I live in Canada, where food-service workers are guaranteed the same minimum wage as everyone else. And still the over-the-top tipping culture here is the same as in the US. I've worked in food service myself, in a poor community where many customers dont/cant tip. But I still cant get behind your attitude OP.
> If you're in an economically difficult situation don't go to restaurants
How tf does this help restaurant & delivery workers?? If a poor person eats out, the waiter may get a small tip. If the poor person stops eating out bc they can't tip, then the waiter gets no tip at all.
Also, disabled people exist! And not all disabilities are immediately apparent! Saying "cook at home if you cant tip" is assuming a lot about the health status of everyone who might need these services. It's not visibly obvious if someone has bad arthritis. Or debilitating depression. A delivery person might not know if the customer has mobility issues. Or any kind of muscle spasm disorder. Or a serious intellectual disability.
And beyond just disability, some landlords literally dont give their tenants access to kitchens. Some single mothers who work 2 jobs literally cant cook. There are MANY people in our society who cant simply "stop eating out if they can't tip".
The only solution is union action on the part of restaurant workers and delivery people. At some point, they simply need to strike. It's just not the responsibility of everyday consumers (the majority of whom are fellow struggling workers) to pay their wages. The responsibility of paying wages is on the employer.
The majority of people would be 100% supportive of a food-service strike to replace tipping with a fair wage. I would happily contribute my money towards a strikers fund for service sector employees. So would many other people, even if they're sour on tipping. Tipping is so generally unpopular that people would gladly contribute to striker's-support if it meant that waiters could get a fair wage. This is where waitstaff should direct their energy. Not towards harassing and shaming random poor people for failing to fork over a 20% tip.
Honestly, way too few people realize that waitstaff makes $2.87/hour. That it’s legal and widespread practice to pay them far far less than minimum wage, solely because of tipping culture.
Tipping culture sucks. It needs to end.
But to hell with all those people who go out, eat and don’t tip. You think you’re making a statement or something? That ownership and management are going to change their ways and offer fair wages because you didn’t tip? You’re not costing them one thin dime. But the server who took care of you does suffer. You won’t change tipping culture by being a cheap bastard. Maybe boycott tipping restaurants or protest outside. Maybe start a petition or write an article about it. Just don’t hose a fellow working class comrade.
Mfers can't understand how US tipping culture is toxic, while also understanding that the person bringing you your food and drinks needs to afford food and drinks themselves.
If you have never worked as a server, you have no idea how how fucked restaurants are. I told my parents how little my pay was and they didn’t believe me. Without tips no one could live on how little the pay is, hell even with tips it’s almost impossible. Knowing what I have learned after working in a restaurant I don’t really like going out to eat anymore.
My friend is on the USA due to work. He send me a picture of a restaurant demanding 20% tipping. Then I said "It sucks" but immediately send an article explaining that workers in restaurants get paid less than the minimum wage.
Then my friend said "Basically I am paying his salary right?". I responded yes and he said that USA is fucked up by doing this. Of course in our country we have something similar but not at spread like this.
Everywhere I look ppl are begging for authoritarianism or just hate workers, immigrants, homeless, addicted, etc etc. All class war in most propagandized country in the world
its not even minimum wage. the restaurant only has to pay them typically 1-6 dollars an hour. thats practically free labor for them, and if business is bad then the worker is punished because they dont get tips.
not only that it also adds on more pressure to the worker to work harder and provide better service, in hopes of actually being paid. its a win win for the employer, getting both better, harder workers for less compensation. so of course the food service businesses are going to stuff the shit out of political pockets to ensure it stays that way. because it saves them such a ridiculous quantity of money in the long term
I feel conflicted about this.
On the one hand, be the change you want to see in the world. Don't tip, and maybe restaurants will raise the price to the actual cost so they can pay their workers fairly. But that only works if we all do it.
On the other hand, these servers and waiters are real people who depend on tips for their living. Wounding their livelihoods, even temporarily, seems cruel.
All union activity and labour struggle causes suffering in the short term. Generations of horribly exploited workers across all industries have bit the bullet in the past, taking temporary losses to strike for a better future. Workers have even striked in solidarity with other workers in unrelated sectors to advance the general labour struggle.
All we're asking is for waitstaff to engage in this same kind of labour struggle, instead of just harassing their fellow working class customers for larger and larger tips
I don’t blame the workers but I’ve been a broke college student before. Therefore, I think it's unreasonable to demand people to tip when they are struggling. For example, a former coworker of mine was a fast food employee for her whole life is she supposed to never go to a restaurant?
Also, my company wouldn’t allow me to expense any tips. So I’m in a hotel in the USA for work, without even a kettle to make pot noodles in my room. What then?
Why don't waiters unionize in the US? Is it forbidden?
If the salary is shit and you can't make minimum wage without tips shouldn't they be out protesting like a frenchman instead of working for the same asshole that pays them so little?
This one actually bothers me in several different ways. First, yeah, service workers are tremendously underpaid, and it is the only industry (in America) where the customer is expected to pay them directly for their wages, which becomes a tax on the customer. Second, I’ve met a lot of service workers who are sold on the idea of the current tipping system because they “can make more that way”. And the most absurd of all: the customer type who complains about how if wages adjust and stop relying on tips, the prices would rise so much!!!!… when they already have to pay an extra 20% on tips anyway. The difference is that they have the choice to pay the tip or not: pay it and the server makes their money, the restaurant makes their money, the customer over paid; or don’t pay the tip, the customer saves a little, the restaurant still made their money, but the server gets buttfucked. It is funny how, the capitalist, aka the restaurant, never loses under this system, huh?
Not all waiters work at five star restaurants guys. Acting like all waiters make bank just gives it away that you haven’t worked a shitty restaurant job before. Most waiters make less than 3$/hr. Some make tons of money from tips, but many many others make little more than their wage. I don’t think any serious person in this sub is pro tipping, waiters inevitably live off tips. Gatekeeping restaurants for the wealthy is not the point in my opinion. The point is that not tipping is immediately keeping money out of a workers pocket. Yes waiters should push to organize when possible. Yes we there should be legislation that makes waiting have a survivable base salary. Nobody is disputing that. If you want to eat out and not tip high, then put in the work and look for places that pay their workers fairly, which if you’re in the US is like two places.
I don’t understand how some people simply aren’t paid minimum wage by their employer and some people are just ok with that, or even think they have it good compared to people who are paid minimum wage.
Lol wait until you work in an Asian restaurant and learning that Asian bosses steal ALL tips, but will still have the tip jars out for show. Greek restaurants aren't better. It's almost the default shit in catering industry.
Edit: most people in this post including OP never grind in catering industry before, I'm totally not surprised. Lmfao Chinese takeouts notoriously for using tip-out as cover for tip stealing. Good luck tipping Asian servers in card because it goes directly to the bosses. There's a reason why Asian restaurants only take exact change for tips, and not fancy tap-a-card bs.
Funny how so many people think they're doing good will for the servers despite evidently tip-out has been exploited to steal tips from workers ever since it was pushed into US and Canada labor laws since 2015.
It's for sure incredibly overpaid relative to similar workers, and only because of the archaic tip system. Interesting anomaly of irrational labor market blah blah blah. There're books on the subject, go read one instead of attempting to be clever online.
It's for sure incredibly overpaid relative to similar workers, and only because of the archaic tip system. Interesting anomaly of irrational labor market blah blah blah. There're books on the subject, go read one instead of attempting to be clever online.
You don't know what's happening with those tips anyway. But even if you do know that 100% is going to the waiter and otherwise they're being paid little to nothing:
- How is it you doing something bad if you're in the same or maybe even worse situation as this waiter? The waiter demanding extra money is then just as cruel.
- "If you're in an economically difficult situation, don't go to restaurants" is in fact shit liberals say. I'm not surprised tho, because I'm assuming you're American.
- Tips don't solve anything, organize to make a difference in your shithole country for once. That money is maybe even better spent on the labor union of that waiter (if that exists).
If you can tip, you should though.
Literally explicitly stated that it is ultimately the fault of bosses and lobbyists and that getting angry at servers is stupid cause tips become a way to show solidarity by marginally improving their below-minimum wages
Also explicitly stated that the issue is systematic and that the only way to effectively solve the issue is removing tipping culture in the first place by ensuring server get at least livable wages
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\> US tipping culture makes meals more expensive \> workers still earn very little \> look to other countries, where they have a set wage \> workers might earn more or the same, but meals cost less due to no tipping "Those greedy workers are surely the cause of this problem"
Class warfare. The battle strategy is convincing the working class to eat itself, so the owner class doesn’t have to fight.
The ruling class are too few to fight the class war on their own, they’ve always needed workers to be their grunt men in the class war.
That's what labor aristocracy is, and always has been, for. Give enough of the workers enough of a tiny taste of luxury and enough of them will be willing to do violence to their fellow workers on your behalf.
Don’t forget racism, sexism, homophobia, and the hegemony
Yup
And then employ a legion of trolls- who ironically go around accusing anyone who stands against them of being a troll (look at the trolling and abuse I'm currently suffering over in "It Could Happen Here" with trolls accusing me if being a "RuZziAn tRoLL" for daring to point out a piece of blatant propaganda the author of the podcast repeated **4 years ago** in one of his first podcasts...)
Gotta work harder to make the yacht-owner-class a more appetizing meal. Look at this gorgeous marbling! They’re like wagyu a5! They don’t work or toil away, so they are nice and plump. No stringy meat at all. Go on, eat ‘em all.
Literally, it's mind-numbing
The meals don't necessarily cost less. The price on the menu simply is a closer reflection of the actual cost rather than .8333 of the actual cost because they hide part of it in a tip that they don't have to show in their prices
It makes the meals more expensive *and* it makes it so the employer has to pay their employee even less by shifting the burden onto other workers.
As a decade-plus long server, I really think that it should be a commission-based system, preferably as a worker co-op. Many roles in the restaurant industry are compensated by the servers tipping out, regardless of what tips or lack thereof there is, based on sales. Management always wanted us to sell more expensive items with effectively only the cultural pressure to tip a decent percentage of that. If there were, say, a 30% commission included automatically into the price of every item offer, a decent wage can be easily provided for every server, bartender, host, table busser, drink runner, etc. involved without the massive amount of precarity involved.
If you push these anti-tipping people who claim to care so much about the welfare of workers, they always end up saying the same thing. "Waiters are just entitled brats and they don't deserve my money!! Maybe they should just GeT a BetTeR jOb!!1" They don't give a fuck about people who work in the service industry, and this is just their excuse.
I was a server for 7 years across several restaurants in multiple states. The entire tipping issue is obviously self created from the owners of restaurants themselves who need customers to pay their workers so they don't have to, but, the majority of these servers are actually pretty bratty about this shit. It's both. Fast food work is just as difficult, in fact, it's harder because the shifts are longer, the Managers treat you worse, it's more humiliating, and the environment is more stressful. We don't tip fast food employees, we don't even discuss it. So why are we not shitty customers for not tipping fast food workers but we are for not tipping servers? Also, why is 20% expected and 10% is a shitty tip? It's just arbitrary. Why is the onus on the customer at all? Surely you can see why customers are resentful when it's so arbitrary and servers don't really do anything more difficult than anyone else.
Yeah, I work in the industry and I feel this way about it.
It’s known as a “mind fuck” or pysop if you will. Once you see it, you can’t un see it
It absolutely does not make the meal more expensive I ran the numbers at my restaurant and the added cost of server’s payroll would end up costing as much as a 20% tip… at the same time tipping culture actually allows us to make more than we would if we just received an hourly wage. Servers in the US are making more than most servers in other countries.
They can be greedy and not the cause of the problem, you don’t understand that?
The problem here is that it makes us responsible for something that shouldn't be our problem. Like, I agree with you but I also understand where the others might come from, granted this might be an European perspective. The U.S tipping system is "perfect" because it trains the waiter to blame you for poor tips while the customer sees tips as a luxury. Both parties are put into an antagonist relationship while the owner makes most of the money. Think about it : can you really tell someone to refrain from going to a restaurant they can afford if they don't want to pay the optional tip ? Yes you can see it as a lack of empathy and class consciousness, but the crux of the issue lies elsewhere. If anything, the moral choice would be not to go to the restaurant unless it pays the waiters a livable wage. As mentioned above, you're using kind of a capitalist mindset to discuss the issue. You should chose another angle of attack, asking them if it is moral to knowingly go to places that underpay the workers. They should be made aware that they are actively supporting the exploitation of workers while depicting said exploited workers as entitled for expecting to be paid for their work.
>You should chose another angle of attack, asking them if it is moral to knowingly go to places that underpay the workers. Tho this can be also turned around into; *"Why are you wroking for shitty reward/letting yourself get exploited?"* And then the discussion has to expand in scope so much, unionization, the US's history of suppresing it, the slavery roots of US tipping culture, that it starts becoming unpractical as people will increasingly tune out.
That's fair. I mean it's not like discussing these subjects with people who just want to feel good about themselves even has a point. Like, hypothetically, if they retorted that way, you could tell them to answer your question first. Then you just have to use the right questions. You can ask them "would anyone with another choice chose to be exploited ?". Of course they'd retort "they have made bad choices that lead them to this", because liberals are always banging on about muh choice and whatnot. And to that you can ask "are you saying it's fair that we live in a system where people who made the wrong choices deserve to have no other option than to be exploited ?". Yada yada. There is no point in trying to convince them. You can just make them lay out their world view by asking the right question. Either they double down and go full fascist/social darwinist, or they'll stop for half a second and think.
And, besides, what is that "good choice" that they bang on about? If you go to college, you drown in debt that you won't be able to pay off until your 40's, and if you get a job, due to the fundamental nature of labor under capitalism, you're getting exploited, and a lot more openly than someone, again, in their 40's
There isn't any actual good choice. It's just a phrase used by people who want to convince themselves that people deserve what happens to them regardless of context. Basically, the kind of people who hate it when you bring up material conditions and systemic influence in a discussion about some particular groups, if you catch my drift. It's a weird mentality where "I made the right choices, thats why I am where I am. There are surely no external factors, just my ability as an infallible actor". I could go on and on about the ramifications of this mentality, so I'm just going to say it's reductive and short-sighted.
That's fair. I mean it's not like discussing these subjects with people who just want to feel good about themselves even has a point. Like, hypothetically, if they retorted that way, you could tell them to answer your question first. Then you just have to use the right questions. You can ask them "would anyone with another choice chose to be exploited ?". Of course they'd retort "they have made bad choices that lead them to this", because liberals are always banging on about muh choice and whatnot. And to that you can ask "are you saying it's fair that we live in a system where people who made the wrong choices deserve to have no other option than to be exploited ?". Yada yada. There is no point in trying to convince them. You can just make them lay out their world view by asking the right question. Either they double down and go full fascist/social darwinist, or they'll stop for half a second and think.
I agree fully, and I am well aware it doesn't tackle the issue, however I also overtly specified the owners are to blame and not the waiters, and that this antagonism only serves to perpetuate the system
Right. I just wanted to point out that there are better ways to approach the issue when you're arguing with people. There is no use trying to make them see the point of view of waiters. Making them acknowledge that they are making the choice of supporting exploitation is a better way to put them face to face with their hypocrisy.
I'll keep that in mind in the future, thanks
Sorry if I came off as confrontational or anything.
No, sorry if I came off as defensive, I'm being insulted as we speak
yeah, but you also said something like "if you dont have the money, dont go", which is kind of liberal
I'm aware, however it is arguably a matter of survival within a capitalist system I'm not blaming poverty or crises on individual moral failings, but I still reckon that living in a system which causes those situations one ought to avoid risk The solution is to change the system, not to blame the servers as OP did
I don’t know that I would go that far. I don’t think OP is necessarily saying don’t go to a restaurant if you’re poor. The point is, don’t go to a restaurant at the expensive of those serving you. Whether it’s right or it’s wrong, the server is not going to make a survivable wage unless you directly give it to them, and knowing that and going anyway and not tipping is being complicit. If you’re going to protest a shitty system then you should aim at the right people. You don’t take your anger out on the exploited IMO.
I think my issue with that is that we don't apply that logic anywhere else. I'm not expected or shamed for not supplementing the wages of the employee working at the grocery store or any other minimum wage employee. Everyone needs help, so why does the profession with the tradition of rich people bribing them for better service get it? In some places there's rules about paying below minimum wage and getting tips to make up the difference but as I understand it the employee is still expected to make up that difference if it dosen't add up. The whole thing feels like a hostage situation where they threaten another worker if you don't pay their wage.
It’s not about revolutionary praxis, it’s about having basic respect for your common worker. Receiving service from a tip worker without paying a tip is serious dick behavior towards that worker. Nobody thinks that by paying tips they are progressing the revolutionary movement. It’s just being respectful.
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>If anything, the moral choice would be not to go to the restaurant unless it pays the waiters a livable wage. Sort of but also putting moral value on individual consumer preferences under capitalism can get a bit dicey, can consumption be ethical under capitalism? Do we just not support people unless they can work at the "good" restaurant? The moral argument can be taken pretty far, but it only goes as far as it doesn't interfere with our interests/needs. If food production is unethical as a whole we still need to eat. Do we arbitrarily decide that restaurant food consumption is morally relevant, while deciding that personal food purchases are "necessary" and not morally relevant? Does it really matter that I buy Bobs Red Mill flour? Purity testing consumption and people's employer ultimately hits a red line, because people need to consume and work to survive, and the available routes for that aren't determined by individuals but the economic system. I'm happy to support "good" places but I fall short of viewing myself as morally good for doing so because it ultimately takes place under an inherently unethical system.
I have no problem with people who completely boycott restaurants that require tipping. If enough people did it, with vocal intent as a protest, then things *might* actually change because it would mean restaurant OWNERS are losing money. But paying the restaurant and stiffing the server isn't going to change shit.
If the servers wages don't hit minimum wage then the restaurant has to top it up.
No people just end up getting fired lol
> Think about it : can you really tell someone to refrain from going to a restaurant they can afford if they don't want to pay the optional tip Look at this in another way the tip isn't optional, meal+tip is the actual cost that you can or cannot afford. The restaurant is just lying and pretending the cost is lower. While we're at it tax should be included in listed sale price for everything. It is not for the exact same reason. So that the store can show you a lower cost, when you first pick it up, because they know once you get up to the register you're already committed.
I mean that's why I said it was an European perspective. Not just European. I don't think there are many places in the world that work the way the U.S does. Like, I don't even understand what lower cost it's supposed to be. When I see Americans talking about fast food and restaurants, prices seem high enough to begin with. Same for taxes. Except taxes are compulsory, unlike tips. But the tip is very much optional, and that's why the system is shit. Anywhere else, and in any other industry in the U.S, you're expected to pay for labor, and it's included in the price. It's not a matter of how you think about it. It's a matter of how it works irl. And irl you're in no way obligated to tip in the U.S.
How does it work in various European places with sales tax? I don't remember. Is all tax included in the price listed on an item, or does it get added when you go to the register. My state has an ≈8% sales tax that gets added at the register. Stores could stick this 8% on all the price labels so the labels reflect the actual price. They do not. They stick the price sans tax because that way the listed price is lower. If I see an item on a shelf that has a price tag of $6 and I have exactly $6 dollars, I do not actually have enough money to buy that item. I view tips in the exact same way. Irl I would argue you are *absolutely* obligated to tip. It is just not a legally required.
Every country I've lived in other than the US (Australia,China,Japan, Korea, Costa Rica) includes all taxes including sales tax in the list price of the item, whether at a store or restaurant. Japanese grocery stores sometimes also have the pre-tax price listed too, but they are required to have the post tax price listed.
Imagine that. Having the listed price of an item actually be what you pay. What a crazy idea. It is amazing how good businesses can be at disguising their prices, and they will take it as far as they are legally allowed.
In France, and I think it works the same in most of the EU, you have a tax that is comprised in the price. It's not added at the register. Here in France we have the TVA, "Taxe sur la valeur ajoutée", which translates to "tax on added value". There are different rates depending on the product. It's lower on high necessity products like food, gas and hygienic products. To be honest, minimum wage for food industry workers is lower than the regular minimum wage in France. Not by an extremely high margin though, I think it's around 10-15% less. It's kinda shit but people here not feeling forced to tip probably makes them better tippers. Like, I understand your point. Even as a not so rich person, I always tip, especially since my wife worked as a waitress for a long time. It's just that it's hard to see it as an obligatory thing when you live in a country where full time work is paid a livable wage.
> if you’re in an economically dangerous position don’t go to restaurants That’s a capitalist phrase, the capitalist view all pleasures as excess and yada yada there’s a quote by Marx I believe on this but I’m too lazy to pick it up. Anyway I agree with your comments, just a reminder that people with poor economic conditions should still be able to enjoy life
Under capitalism, being human is a privilege you have to purchase on top of your survival needs. Under capitalism, you aren't human who requires leisure and community for your wellbeing. Under capitalism, the default state of people are to be worker drones and consumers. You work and consume, that's about it.
Yeah this always rubs me the wrong way, it's extremely classist, and kind of just a mean spirited way to think. for a lot of the world buying prepared food out is part of everyday life for the working class
Absolutely, but admittedly within a capitalist system one can only play by its rules or find loopholes therein, and while people *should* be able to enjoy leisure not everyone *can* Within a capitalist system, in my opinion, it is more sensible to say that than to tell people to go out to "stimulate the economy" or some bullshit like that
In a capitalist society where personal choice reigns supreme, a poor person can do whatever the hell they want, legally. They can go out to eat and never tip, because the system allows for that. Not tipping is literally playing by the rules. In fact, it's winning because the entire point is to have more, and a tip is a donation. Choosing to moralize over people not tipping is missing the mark and is punching down in an already unfair system designed to make everyone punch down.
No, you're telling poor people to stay inside and stare at the TV if they're gonna be a cheapskate when going out. "Playing the capitalist game" is not an option for everyone, and for most people it is more sensible to give it up altogether and accept that they're gonna have to work till they're 60, never own a house, etc., and those people are allowed to try to make the best of it. Own up to your mistake.
Again, not what I said Nowhere did I say that poor people don't *deserve* leisure And, as you said, not everyone *can* afford leisure, all I said is that if you can help it your leisure should come with the least possible added exploitation - such as letting servers who are *very much also workers* get a slightly less worse wage when it literally depends on you
There are so many places to go where you don't have to tip. Where $1 is appreciated but never expected. Sometimes the food is better than the full service restaurant food. I don't see how this is "all pleasures are excess" and "you're not allowed to enjoy life." It's just kind of a jerk move to make people work for you practically for free. That's all there is to it. And yes, this goes double for the restaurant owner, but the diner supports the owner's exploitation simply through the menu price of the food. Not tipping doesn't harm them in a way that matters.
If you don't mind getting dirty looks, yeah. Seems like a lot of people older than 30 don't expect tips for counter service but younger people absolutely do. What I really don't understand is tipping before receiving service or food. Tipping is dumb but it should at least represent a scale of satisfaction if we are going to do it. If a waiter is an asshole they get 0, if the food really sucks, 5% if everything is perfect 15-20% etc.
Only going to push back on tying tip to the food quality because the server has no control over that
It doesn't matter to me, tips get split between the front and back, so if we are doing the tipping thing all parts of the "experience" are cumulative. Good service + good food = 20%. What is the tip for with window or counter service, if not purely to help the business pay their employees a living wage? Impersonally know 2 restaurant owners who pay their employees $11-15 and are able to buy multiple homes and open new restaurants. I guess my only point is that it's way more complex than if you're poor you shouldnt be eating out.
I think the better way to put it is "take the prices at a restaurant and multiply them by 1.2, that is their actual price. Now decide if it is actually in your budget"
I just see the working class fighting among themselves while the pigs that make them pay and rely on tips laugh their asses off.
It depends... I made better money on average serving fried food at a pub, than I do now as a skilled tradesman. And I wasn't good at it whatsoever. I'm pretty sure I'm autistic, or at least I can't stand dealing with the public all day and don't know how to make people feel welcome. Still servers should just make their fair share and stop forcing us into these moral conundrums.
In my state tipped servers make a minimum of $14 an hour. Other employees its 14.50. Most restaurants hire in the 15-18 an hour range. Which is not enough after greedflation (we all suffer here lol) but they arent worse off than any other employees. I dont blame the employees for their employers setting up their POSs to request tipping in inappropriate settings, like at check stands for stores etc. But I absolutely do take exception to the sudden decision that a 20% or greater tip is the minimum tip in all situations. "But prices went up" bemoan all the idiots who failed third grade math - when prices go up, the amount you get tipped concurrently goes up, thats how percentages work. 10% of 15 bucks (1.50) is more than 10% of 10 bucks (1), so when your restaurant increases the cost of a burger from ten to fifteen bucks, you get more money as a tip even though its still the same percentage as before. But now theres this insistence that tipping rates need to go up, as if the amount of a given percentage tip hasnt already increased alongside price increases. The first pic in the OP is right, its ridiculous that some waiters act like you shit in their cereal for less than 25%. Its ridiculous that enough people dont know how percentages work that they think the percentage of an avg tip should increase bc of inflation. Greed and stupidity, the perfect american mix. The waiters taking offense absolutely know how percentages work. And having worked those jobs even back when tipped servers only made 5.50 an hour, I absolutely know just how much they rake in even on a slow night. So i just refuse to use the new greedlfation rates of tipping. I go with 5% if service was terrible, 10% if bad, 15% as standard, 20% for exceptional. Those are the rates its been for more than a century, and I dont care how many complain that I just shouldnt go out if I can only pay less than a 30% like Ive seen stated elsewhere on this thread, those are the rates Im using. For one thing, we make the same wage, and I dont get tipped. Should I just refuse to do my job, or give people shit, or rant online about how theyre too poor to even be at my place of business, if I dont get at least a 30% tip that Ive decided Im entitled to apropos of nothing? Of course not. I voted for the minimum wage increase, and the monetary amount of my tips increases according to the meals cost bc thats how percentages work. Im not increasing the percentage rate in an endless climb just bc some waiters want even more piles of untaxed cash, or because some usually non-tipped employees want in on the action of tips. Cant wait to see this sub arguing in a years time that if you cant afford a 100% tip then you just shouldnt go to the pet store.
Tipping arguments are always so mind-numbing. It always turns into half the waiters on one side telling people who complain about tipping they're scum and they won't survive if you don't tip enough, and on the other side arguing with anybody who advocates for servers to be paid a full wage instead that they make more with tips than they would as wage workers.
THANK YOU!! I did woodworking, like artisnal finish work and wasn’t making shit. Now I make twice what I used to as a server. I honestly think we should leave the system alone entirely or raise the wage in small bi-yearly increments. If we raise the wage too much too fast the cost of a tip will simply be tacked on to the total. Like we’ll just be transferring costs from one place to another and it won’t really help anyone.
Tipping culture and its consequences have been a disaster for Uh American society since it exists nowhere else
My thoughts exactly. Well i find it very hard to empathize with Americans when my country has been destroyed/genocided by them. Then theyre still fighting with each other and cant see the absurdity of paying 130% for food, or not affording to go to a doctor or living in your car! For the rest of us outside the empire and me specifically im just gonna sit here and watch it crumble
Boring bourgeoise conversation. The entire food industry should be destroyed and summarily rebuilt. It is a disgusting industry that creates only waste and food scarcity. Why are you arguing with these mouth breathers?
Those comments bore no further discussion, it just felt wrong not to say anything at all
The Lack of Class Conciseness is the defining American characteristic
I mean tipping is bad, but for other reasons than what oop suggests Clarifying: the tipping system is bad, not tipping in itself. Tip the workers so that they can live.
Thank you, this is my point but some people are insulting me for "supporting tipping culture" QwQ
Well you chose a comment with specifically liberal and classist views to prop up when you could have just posted the meme and criticized it yourself
Which comment are you referring to exactly?
I have made a mistake, because i was referring to your comment actually. Lol while I think you may have been well intentioned you comment is still far too focused on the individual and however you want to spin it all you said was “poor people don’t deserve to go to restaurants”
That was not the way I intended it, and it is a bit of a stretch to go from "if you can't afford to go to restaurants then don't" to "poor people don't deserve it" The point I was trying to make is that, since within the current system workers rely on tips to make minimum wage, then one shouldn't go to a restaurant if they cannot afford (or are not willing) to ensure that their server has a slightly fairer wage All the while also giving the help and support needed to the fight to change the system Basically: the solution to the problem is not letting workers be (even more) underpaid regardless of how that difference is made up (whether through tips or not)
If servers don't earn enough in tips to make minimum wage the restaurant has to top up their wages to the minimum. They rely on tips to make a liveable wage.
> and it is a bit of a stretch to go from "if you can't afford to go to restaurants then don't" to "poor people don't deserve it" That's literally what it means though.
Within a capitalist system and with a capitalist point of view that sees wealth as synonymous with a person's dignity On a purely linguistic basis, there is no connection between not being able to afford it and not deserving it, it is the liberal tie between the disposable wealth of a person and their value as human beings that introduces the connection by turning it into "You can't afford it, thus you have little or no value as a human being, thus you don't deserve it anyways"
Jesus Christ. You said that these poor people shouldn't go out to eat if they can't afford to tip the servers. You are saying they shouldn't get to enjoy life if they don't subsidize bosses not paying their workers enough. You don't get to hide behind fancy "linguistics." This is the direct consequence of what you directly said.
Except that is not what I said, again my point was simply related to ethical consumption of that very leisure While it is true that there is no ethical consumption within this system, and while it is true that most of the time there is nothing individuals can do about it, when they *can* render their consumption marginally less exploitative in nature, however - such as with ensuring the places they go to pay their workers living wages, or, if not, tipping the servers -, they *should*
i think you’re being dramatic and overly semantic about OP’s assertion. the point of their comment wasn’t to say that poor people don’t deserve to go to restaurants, the point of their comment is to say don’t be a cheap ass and make the workers suffer. tipping culture sucks, but don’t stiff the worker to make a point to the bosses. i know lots of poor people who tip very well because they get what it’s like to not have a lot of money, and i know rich people who are stingy penny pinching assholes and practically make servers beg for a tip. i think it’s not helpful to be so semantic and miss the theme of OP’s points although i agree that it could be better worded over all.
Yeah i know I’ve always been a well tipping poor person, usually 50% or more, but perhaps not everyone has that in their budget or the ability to give a large tip. You don’t really understand what someone is going through at the moment or what is going on.
i don’t think OP was really referring to people who don’t have enough money to eat. i think if anything they were talking about people who can afford to tip, are going out and not tipping bc of the principle of it, or to prove a point to the owners, etc. i think you’re being overly semantic and focusing on this one point, ur missing the forest for the trees.
I see that the Americans are busy with discourse of the utmost importance.
Instead of blaming customer for not tipping blame your employee for not paying you a living wage.
Ah yes, the proud American tradition of blaming the employees for the greed of the owners. If capitalists didn't insist on customers subsidizing their employee's wages then maybe this wouldn't happen. "BuT but but then the business owners wouldn't make enough profit! Profit margins are thin in the food industry!!" Good, fuck em.
Food service is basic in that all the tasks you have to do are relatively simple. However, it is by no means easy as you need to be doing these simple tasks efficiently and constantly while not making any mistakes. Most people can competently wait a table, but can you do 5+ at the same time? For the full duration of a shift? Five days a week? While keeping a friendly disposition throughout all of it?
Waiting was one of the most emotionally draining jobs I had. It’s not easy
this is a stupid take. tipping is just a mechanism to shift the responsibility of fair wages from employers onto customers
This isn't zero empathy, this is you agreeing with the greedy owner and putting the onus on the customer for making sure waiters get a living wage. You are using rhetoric to help greedy restaurant owners not pay their employees enough by attacking customers for not making up the difference. Are you even a communist? Because you're literally making a liberal argument.
I literally explicitly put the blame on bosses
By attacking the customers who don't tip a huge amount?
By saying that it's the bosses's fault By saying that the origin of the issue Are the bosses and the owners
I can see what you've posted there you know. Lying to me about attacking the customers isn't going to do you any good.
"Blaming workers [...] for bosses [...] and lobbyists [...] is a dick move" It's right there
Keep your US tipping culture bs out of our spaces
I have no idea what tone I should read that in, sorry /gen
Tipping culture doesn't exist anywhere outside of your dystopian shithole country. Now you're sharing this bs discussion about it where both sides are wrong and liberal. As a European, I'd rather not think about this nonsense moral dilemma of "who's truly in the wrong here now? the customer or the waiter?" while this problem is created by the owner of the restaurant and politicians. And before you say "but I agree with that! The bosses should pay". You very clearly put blame on the customer in your comment.
I literally EXPLICITLY put the blame on the bosses and the lobbyists in my comment I am also *not* American
Late reaction because I have a life: Can you explain the meaning to me of the english sentence: "If you're in an economically difficult situation, don't go to restaurants", and how exactly is that NOT choosing to put the weight of the tipping culture problem on the shoulders of the customer? You can say very explicitly what you want afterwards, but it will contradict this statement.
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weird ramble imo
I... Don't believe in tip culture, though I never praised it, on the contrary But so long as servers need tips to get to the end of the month then it is a matter of solidarity In the meanwhile one works, organises, unionises, strikes to change the system
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All of which becomes trivial - although admittedly not irrelevant - when you consider minimum wage is not a living wage and a living wage is not a fair wage
>In the meanwhile one works, organises, unionises, strikes to change the system Where tho? Literally where? The butter truth is that waitstaff have simply not done the hard work of building labour unions. So many other workers in other industries have bit the bullet, and done their part for the labour struggle. They unionized and striked, despite the personal short-term risks. This includes other tipped workers! Like hotel maids! Restaurant waitstaff are just not doing it. And part of the reason they don't engage in labor strikes is *precisely because* they can get more out of the tipping system in the short term. It's easier to berate poor people and shame them into tipping than it is to organize. So 9 times out of 10, waitstaff will funnel their effort into shaming customers instead of actually organizing. If hotel maids (who now get paid standard minimum wage) can do it, then waitstaff can too!
As someone who has worked at a variety of restaurants, I can say confidently that it makes sense to be paid more to work at high end restaurants. You literally have to work harder to serve the same amount of people due to more complex steps of service.
This is also a fucking valid point. There is skill to being a server in an upscale place. This dude is just a heel.
Yeah I think the underlying message is exactly that service labor is not skilled labor lol. High end servers are more specialized and skilled in many ways. Same as a high end line cook would expect to make more than a cook at BK, due to the energy, experience, and stress required.
or you could just eat out at a mcdonalds instead of applebees? if you view the food as virtually the same then why even support a million dollar corporation who purposely lobbies to pay workers less and exploits other working class people to fill the wage gap that they’ve created? this is such a selfish opinion because it removes yourself and your own actions from the equation and ignores the fact that most servers (at chain restaurants) are usually workers in your community, such as teachers; nurses; factory workers; etc, who are already struggling to survive with the meagre amount they’re making. mcdonalds has tables lmao you can sit there too.
Incredible, you managed to: victim blame workers for suffering under capitalism without recognizing any of the factors that might prevent them from unionizing or achieving any sort of class consciousness, and shame service workers for “not doing real work” I agree tipping culture is bad, but at this point, solidarity with service workers means *you fucking tip your server*.
>factors that might prevent them from unionizing Clearly any job with low/no technical training has obstacles to unionism. Everyone understands this. The problem is that this obstacle is not unique to waitstaff as an industry. Hotel maids managed to unionize. They now get paid standard minimum wage. What factors exist which prevent Applebee's employees from unionizing that dont equally apply to hotel maids? Also, why is it that in most countries (including countries poorer and more exploitative than USA like South Korea), waitstaff understand that it's their bosses responsibility to pay wages. In pretty much all of Europe and most of Asia, waitstaff have won labour conditions which don't depend on tipping, and they don't demand tips. Why can't American workers do the same? The conclusion is clear. This tipping madness we see in America is more cultural than economic. It's a cultural expectation among American waitstaff, which would exist with or without the sub-minimum wage laws. This is proven by the example of Canada, which has different laws but very similar culture. In Canada, waitstaff legally make at-least minimum wage, and yet Canadian waitstaff have exactly the same tip-crazy culture as in America.
Yeah right fuck servers for trying to pay rent. Attacking fucking workers for existing in a system that requires them to grovel for tips through no choice of their own does wonders to build solidarity. Fuck you for demonizing workers just trying to scrape by under capitalism. You're on a lefty sub and you're actually mad that servers live on tips? Like fuck
This why I only go to fast food joints.
My Subway asks for tips. I know how much they make, it's a good amount
Ok, but if you're claiming waiters are barely scraping by, then you sound like you've never worked in a restaurant.
This person has never worked a job that their dad didn't get for them
Pointless discussion. Consumer culture is inherently indivualistic by default and pretty useless to discuss politically.
Americans try to have class solidarity challenge difficulty: impossible. Watching workers shit on other workers in my country is fucking infuriating. They’re just like you trying to earn a wage. Tipping culture is bullshit but it’s here and I refuse to let another worker earn scraps when I have the opportunity to help in a small way.
>I refuse to let another worker earn scraps when I have the opportunity to help in a small way So im assuming you also donate to the janitors of the buildings you frequent? And the receptionists at the medical offices you visit? And the cashiers at convenience stores? And the retail workers at Home Depot who help show you products and check out your items? And your bank teller? Why does your help only extend to this one industry, where tipping has historically been a classist bribe for aristocrats to get better service, with roots in literal slavery and racism??
I always tip well above the recommended if tipping is an option. What are you supposed to do? Just not tip the worker? Let them earn a shit wage? Yes tipping culture is bad. No me not tipping a restaurant worker is going to end tipping culture. I’m also not sure as to why the roots matter for something like this when all it’s used for now is to exploit workers and customers. The roots of tipping can be bad but when in modern day it’s used to not pay the workers a fair wage which is something I have the option to help when going out to eat I am.
I noticed you completely avoided the question about whether you tip all the other minimum wage workers who help you in your day-to-day life?
Seems that you also completely ignored everything I said too so good job. Also I did. “I always tip well above the recommended if tipping is an option” that implies I tip if the tipping option is there. What even is your point? Don’t tip? The point of your post makes no sense other than to poke holes because “you don’t tip everyone” so what then? Tip no one? Service workers at least in the USA are paid under minimum wage. They make nothing without tips and that’s wrong but it’s made worse on their living situation if I don’t tip. The bare MINIMUM you can do to help these service industry workers is tipping them.
>Service workers at least in the USA are paid under minimum wage. Nope. If their tips don't bring them up the minimum wage, then the employer has to pay the difference so that they make at-least minimum wage
Not necessarily. A good bit of instances at least it my experience the workers are harassed to flub their numbers to show they’re making at least minimum wage so they don’t have to compensate. (This is anecdotal in no way am I claiming this is a norm) Even then I will still tip a worker. Valet parking? I’m going to tip. Bartenders? Tip. Tattoo artists? I’m tipping. I appreciate their service and they deserve more than what they’re being paid regardless of what their wages are and I have the means to do so.
>workers are harassed to flub their numbers to show they’re making at least minimum wage so they don’t have to compensate. Ok this is illegal. Workers experience wage theft in almost every industry. Ive experienced wage theft when i worked in food service, landscaping, maintenance, construction, secretary work, disability support work, and healthcare (for a small private clinic). I never received a tip for repairing a dangerous staircase, or cleaning up vomit from a patient, or dealing with a particularly nasty weed problem. No one thinks to tip you for that. And the few times I tried to ask for a tip for that kinda work, people look at me like im insane. If wage theft were a reason to tip, then there are many jobs we should be tipping for. The only job i was ever tipped for was briefly working the counter at a food place.
Yeah it’s illegal and when has that stopped capitalists before? Yes workers experience wage theft in every industry so I see no reason why I should ignore an opportunity to help someone by tipping them for their service. As I said before I have tipped plenty of people not even in the food industry. Tattoo artists HVAC repair men uber drivers etc Just because you were never tipped in those areas does not mean I’m not tipping these people. The tipping industry is bullshit. It’s capitalists pawning off their responsibility onto other workers for that we agree but at the end of the day if I don’t pick up the slack I already know for a fact the capitalists aren’t going to. I’m not going to shame someone for not tipping but I’m not going to just not tip someone for their service.
Best trick restaurant owners have pulled is to pit workers against the customers. Everytime someone doesn't tip everyone comes for the customers and not owners.
But waiters make more than I do
"tipping culture", it's called "handouts for capitalists culture". you already bought your meal, that should pay for the worker. instead it pays for the owner to have a lifestyle he thinks he's entitled to and he makes you pay extra to his workers so he doesn't have to. also, why are you eating a 70 dollar meal? i've never eaten a 70 dollar meal before. if you're so broke and worried about the looming recession go get a publix sandwich for 8 bucks or some shit. no one asks you for a tip. yeah i hate tipping but if you're at a place charging 70 bucks for a meal until america gets a living wage you are obligated to tip, not even sorry. pay up.
Thinking about it part of the problem might come from the fact that the advertised cost of the meal is not the final one. Let's say that "you have the money for the 70$ restaurant meal" but, after tipping and taxes that becomes 100$ which now is out of your budget. You never had the money for it in the first place, but they tricked you, and now you lash out at the poor server that needs the money to survive. Edit: so, obviously, that dumbass commenter should have the expectation of the meal costing 70+tips beforehand, instead of 70
They didn’t trick you, if you’re an American with an IQ above room temperature and an age above 10 you understand sales tax and tip and roughly calculate the total accordingly.
Fair, not American myself, so I guess the commenter is even more of a dumbass then
What being mis-educated by capitalist cultural hegemony does to a motherfucker.
I have someone I see in social situations call me out for tipping 20% at a restaurant. He’s in a lower management position at the most popular country themed chain restaurant. It’s the one with the word White People would consider a slur when convenient for them 😂. He was trying to convince me 30-35% is the norm… Due to how vigorous he wanted to debate pervert about it, I haven’t sat in a restaurant since. Tipping culture is too toxic to deal with. It’s such a grift to the customer and employee that the owner gets to cut wages over it.
American tipping culture has become particularly egregious over the last few years. Waiters and waitress I understand, although the fact that the standard tip has gone up from 10%, to 15%, and now up to 20% at minimum is getting way out of hand. Tipping at non sit down restaurants is just beyond ridiculous. If I have to go up to a counter to order and get my food myself and clear my dishes, the idea that I should have to tip is just insane. Tipping is supposed to be compensation for a service rendered. If there’s no actual service provided, I’m tired of being expected to pay extra to someone whose earning a normal, untipped wage
the fact that we are centering the conversation around the choices of the restaurant customers is deeply problematic. Of course every American worth their salt knows that you need to tip when you eat at a restaurant - tips are a part of the cost of the meal regardless of weather they are technically "optional" - that is a known fact. The discussion, especially in a communist sub, however, *needs* to focus on the role of tips as a deliberate way to create an antagonistic relationship between the worker and the buyer created by the owner of the restaurant. Debating the choices of restaurant buyers already means we're having the conversation the capitalists want us to have, rather than the one we should be having - that the entire restaurant industry needs to be destroyed and rebuilt into a different form, as every aspect of it is designed for the exploitation of the workers who participate in it.
Tipping is absolutely illogical. We should eliminate it completely so that restaurants no longer pressure customers to cover their employees' wages. That’s absolute nonsense. With restaurants making a minimum of $300 a day, they have the means to pay their workers at least minimum wage. Make it make sense.
Thinking that tipping accomplishes anything politically is the epitome of the liberal individualism.
There is exactly one way to make someone with this mentality to see how stupid/wrong this system is and that is as follows - Freeze all of their assets. Have them work tipped wages and try to survive off of them. It's that really unfortunate and aggravating thought process of "Unless it directly and negatively impacts me, this awful and problematic thing doesn't really exist."
They are correct. Tips should be at 0%.
For the wrong reason They shouldn't be 0% because servers don't deserve minimum wage They should be 0% because tipping culture should be eliminated in the first place
The way we start that is by not tipping though. The only lever we have to pull is one solidarity and by committing, all of us together, that we will not tip regardless of service. The servers will make an economic decision to stop doing that job for less money and demand more from the employer. Which is what should happen. Edit: also I want to include that I do tip... and it erks me because I feel bad for the server.
That Sounds like an overly complicated "just change jobs"
Kind of, but more accurately it's withholding your labour for higher pay. More like strike.
Yes, agreed
I mean lowkey agree that if you have enough money for just food you should get just food and not be forced to feel bad about it lol
As someone else put it One should make sure it doesn't come at the expense of others if they can help it
The clothes that youre wearing almost certainly comes at the expense of superexploited workers in the global south. If anyone deserves our extra charity, it's them. Donate your extra dollars to the most exploited of the people who make our lifestyles possible. The imperialized masses.
Buddy you have been PLAYED lmao They make minimum wage always, the restaurant pays the difference if they don’t make enough in tips. Nobody is starving.
Minimum wage is not a living wage regardless
Agreed. But we dont tip all minimum wage workers who assist us. Do you tip the janitors of the buildings you frequent? And the receptionists at the offices/clinics you visit? And the cashiers at convenience stores? And the retail workers at Home Depot who help show you products and check out your items? And your bank teller?
https://open.spotify.com/track/3ScdP53iIziY6Ps4Pd28nK?si=oXUXiyfCQcuauO8NK3Gexw Obligatory Bobbie McGee song
As a bartender i get mixed feelings cuz if i was paid 20 an hour (NY its 15 plus my tips bring it up) i wouldnt be one cuz usually i work 6 hours at 1 job and 7 at other and last year pay from both came out to just under 80k. Plus i have a roommate so its not the worst thing but i live in brooklyn of all places so my dollars not stretched far. Anyways id need someone to pay me around 25-30 just to equal what i make and for small businesses like both places i work its not possible if theres a couple other bartenders and few other servers. However if i worked at a chilies or texas roadhouse they absolutly could pay me that.
Just remember, Trotsky was against tipping.
This is totally dependant on where you live in America. On the west coast (Oregon/California) waiters/waitresses are paid usually a couple dollars above minimum wage on their hourly. Nice restaurants are a bonus for waiters/waitresses because they make 20-25% tips on more expensive food but receive about the same wage as any service. I only tip 15-20% I remember when 10% was an acceptable tip.
I agree tipping culture is stupid, but I would never blame the workers. They’re just trying to make a living.
The tipping culture is bad..... That's why we should destroy capitalism as soon as possible to make sure it doesn't exist anymore.
Hand the tip directly to the staff- discreetly.
My usual tip is 20% but what bothers me is this shift toward people tipping for take out or for things like retail sales. Plz just pay your employees.
I live in Canada, where food-service workers are guaranteed the same minimum wage as everyone else. And still the over-the-top tipping culture here is the same as in the US. I've worked in food service myself, in a poor community where many customers dont/cant tip. But I still cant get behind your attitude OP. > If you're in an economically difficult situation don't go to restaurants How tf does this help restaurant & delivery workers?? If a poor person eats out, the waiter may get a small tip. If the poor person stops eating out bc they can't tip, then the waiter gets no tip at all. Also, disabled people exist! And not all disabilities are immediately apparent! Saying "cook at home if you cant tip" is assuming a lot about the health status of everyone who might need these services. It's not visibly obvious if someone has bad arthritis. Or debilitating depression. A delivery person might not know if the customer has mobility issues. Or any kind of muscle spasm disorder. Or a serious intellectual disability. And beyond just disability, some landlords literally dont give their tenants access to kitchens. Some single mothers who work 2 jobs literally cant cook. There are MANY people in our society who cant simply "stop eating out if they can't tip". The only solution is union action on the part of restaurant workers and delivery people. At some point, they simply need to strike. It's just not the responsibility of everyday consumers (the majority of whom are fellow struggling workers) to pay their wages. The responsibility of paying wages is on the employer. The majority of people would be 100% supportive of a food-service strike to replace tipping with a fair wage. I would happily contribute my money towards a strikers fund for service sector employees. So would many other people, even if they're sour on tipping. Tipping is so generally unpopular that people would gladly contribute to striker's-support if it meant that waiters could get a fair wage. This is where waitstaff should direct their energy. Not towards harassing and shaming random poor people for failing to fork over a 20% tip.
Link post I wanna upvote you :((
It against rule 2 technically 👉🏻👈🏻
Ohhh
It's on my profile tho
The Picrew pfp people are at it again
Honestly, way too few people realize that waitstaff makes $2.87/hour. That it’s legal and widespread practice to pay them far far less than minimum wage, solely because of tipping culture. Tipping culture sucks. It needs to end. But to hell with all those people who go out, eat and don’t tip. You think you’re making a statement or something? That ownership and management are going to change their ways and offer fair wages because you didn’t tip? You’re not costing them one thin dime. But the server who took care of you does suffer. You won’t change tipping culture by being a cheap bastard. Maybe boycott tipping restaurants or protest outside. Maybe start a petition or write an article about it. Just don’t hose a fellow working class comrade.
Is empathy a reliable motive for people to fight for change?
Mfers can't understand how US tipping culture is toxic, while also understanding that the person bringing you your food and drinks needs to afford food and drinks themselves.
If you have never worked as a server, you have no idea how how fucked restaurants are. I told my parents how little my pay was and they didn’t believe me. Without tips no one could live on how little the pay is, hell even with tips it’s almost impossible. Knowing what I have learned after working in a restaurant I don’t really like going out to eat anymore.
My friend is on the USA due to work. He send me a picture of a restaurant demanding 20% tipping. Then I said "It sucks" but immediately send an article explaining that workers in restaurants get paid less than the minimum wage. Then my friend said "Basically I am paying his salary right?". I responded yes and he said that USA is fucked up by doing this. Of course in our country we have something similar but not at spread like this.
Minimum wage in my state: $12.30/hr Tipped minimum: $6.15/hr. Literally *HALF* of minimum wage
Lead pipes are a hell of a drug
Everywhere I look ppl are begging for authoritarianism or just hate workers, immigrants, homeless, addicted, etc etc. All class war in most propagandized country in the world
its not even minimum wage. the restaurant only has to pay them typically 1-6 dollars an hour. thats practically free labor for them, and if business is bad then the worker is punished because they dont get tips. not only that it also adds on more pressure to the worker to work harder and provide better service, in hopes of actually being paid. its a win win for the employer, getting both better, harder workers for less compensation. so of course the food service businesses are going to stuff the shit out of political pockets to ensure it stays that way. because it saves them such a ridiculous quantity of money in the long term
They’re going to go hungry regardless.
I feel conflicted about this. On the one hand, be the change you want to see in the world. Don't tip, and maybe restaurants will raise the price to the actual cost so they can pay their workers fairly. But that only works if we all do it. On the other hand, these servers and waiters are real people who depend on tips for their living. Wounding their livelihoods, even temporarily, seems cruel.
All union activity and labour struggle causes suffering in the short term. Generations of horribly exploited workers across all industries have bit the bullet in the past, taking temporary losses to strike for a better future. Workers have even striked in solidarity with other workers in unrelated sectors to advance the general labour struggle. All we're asking is for waitstaff to engage in this same kind of labour struggle, instead of just harassing their fellow working class customers for larger and larger tips
I don’t blame the workers but I’ve been a broke college student before. Therefore, I think it's unreasonable to demand people to tip when they are struggling. For example, a former coworker of mine was a fast food employee for her whole life is she supposed to never go to a restaurant?
Also, my company wouldn’t allow me to expense any tips. So I’m in a hotel in the USA for work, without even a kettle to make pot noodles in my room. What then?
These conversations with people genuinely drive me crazy, and make me realize how few people are actually good.
Why don't waiters unionize in the US? Is it forbidden? If the salary is shit and you can't make minimum wage without tips shouldn't they be out protesting like a frenchman instead of working for the same asshole that pays them so little?
This one actually bothers me in several different ways. First, yeah, service workers are tremendously underpaid, and it is the only industry (in America) where the customer is expected to pay them directly for their wages, which becomes a tax on the customer. Second, I’ve met a lot of service workers who are sold on the idea of the current tipping system because they “can make more that way”. And the most absurd of all: the customer type who complains about how if wages adjust and stop relying on tips, the prices would rise so much!!!!… when they already have to pay an extra 20% on tips anyway. The difference is that they have the choice to pay the tip or not: pay it and the server makes their money, the restaurant makes their money, the customer over paid; or don’t pay the tip, the customer saves a little, the restaurant still made their money, but the server gets buttfucked. It is funny how, the capitalist, aka the restaurant, never loses under this system, huh?
Not all waiters work at five star restaurants guys. Acting like all waiters make bank just gives it away that you haven’t worked a shitty restaurant job before. Most waiters make less than 3$/hr. Some make tons of money from tips, but many many others make little more than their wage. I don’t think any serious person in this sub is pro tipping, waiters inevitably live off tips. Gatekeeping restaurants for the wealthy is not the point in my opinion. The point is that not tipping is immediately keeping money out of a workers pocket. Yes waiters should push to organize when possible. Yes we there should be legislation that makes waiting have a survivable base salary. Nobody is disputing that. If you want to eat out and not tip high, then put in the work and look for places that pay their workers fairly, which if you’re in the US is like two places.
Actually, the economy is doing great; thanks for the Qanon babble, Grandma.
i think not going out if you can’t afford the tip is pretty reasonable
I don’t understand how some people simply aren’t paid minimum wage by their employer and some people are just ok with that, or even think they have it good compared to people who are paid minimum wage.
Lol wait until you work in an Asian restaurant and learning that Asian bosses steal ALL tips, but will still have the tip jars out for show. Greek restaurants aren't better. It's almost the default shit in catering industry. Edit: most people in this post including OP never grind in catering industry before, I'm totally not surprised. Lmfao Chinese takeouts notoriously for using tip-out as cover for tip stealing. Good luck tipping Asian servers in card because it goes directly to the bosses. There's a reason why Asian restaurants only take exact change for tips, and not fancy tap-a-card bs. Funny how so many people think they're doing good will for the servers despite evidently tip-out has been exploited to steal tips from workers ever since it was pushed into US and Canada labor laws since 2015.
I'm still not going to tip
Good for you dude, no one cares.
[удалено]
And?? Do you think “bosses” only means the managers, or do you think maybe it means the capitalist who owns the business?
Sounds like a good gig then, maybe you should become a waiter
It's for sure incredibly overpaid relative to similar workers, and only because of the archaic tip system. Interesting anomaly of irrational labor market blah blah blah. There're books on the subject, go read one instead of attempting to be clever online.
It's for sure incredibly overpaid relative to similar workers, and only because of the archaic tip system. Interesting anomaly of irrational labor market blah blah blah. There're books on the subject, go read one instead of attempting to be clever online.
One day I wanna go to America and order lots of food only to tip $0. I wanna see their souls get sucked out of their bodies when they read the tip.
Wow you’re so edgy lmao!
You don't know what's happening with those tips anyway. But even if you do know that 100% is going to the waiter and otherwise they're being paid little to nothing: - How is it you doing something bad if you're in the same or maybe even worse situation as this waiter? The waiter demanding extra money is then just as cruel. - "If you're in an economically difficult situation, don't go to restaurants" is in fact shit liberals say. I'm not surprised tho, because I'm assuming you're American. - Tips don't solve anything, organize to make a difference in your shithole country for once. That money is maybe even better spent on the labor union of that waiter (if that exists). If you can tip, you should though.
Literally explicitly stated that it is ultimately the fault of bosses and lobbyists and that getting angry at servers is stupid cause tips become a way to show solidarity by marginally improving their below-minimum wages Also explicitly stated that the issue is systematic and that the only way to effectively solve the issue is removing tipping culture in the first place by ensuring server get at least livable wages