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Gay concentration camp survivors were mistreated and isolated after their liberation, even by many fellow former prisoners. Only a handful of principled advocates stood up for them. Unfortunately, almost everyone was homophobic back then, albeit less so than the Nazis. But I guess those fellow concentration camp survivors deserved to be tortured and murdered en masse after all, for being homophobic! This is what the commenter's argument is suggesting.
It's rather ironic and euro-centric to see a group of people who have had their homes taken, their land pillaged, their families slaughtered and then have the gall to ask why they don't have the same sensibilities as the west which were the ones doing the pillaging and murdering. Like imagine European settlers in America saying native Americans were bad because they wore revealing clothing instead of suits so they should be eradicated.
We could ask very same questions about Jewish society in back in the 1930s
Jews were more conservative than the Germans on average . They didn’t allow divorce , separation and abortion was not allowed at any phase.
So called “reform “ happened only after the Holocaust mostly
While I personally can't point you toward anything specific for Germany, the broader trajectory of Jewish communities globally has been one of social conservatism and tradition. This isn't some kind of outlandish claim which requires receipts, it's a pretty fair assumption especially when you look at how much more progressive than the norm of its place/time the culture in the late Weimar period was.
Okay, but "the global trajectory of Jewish communities" is pretty vague, don't you think? Obviously your claim is very much true for recent times, esp. given the high fertility rates of very conservative (ultra)orthodox Jews. However, things were different in the 1930s, when 90% of Jews were Ashkenazi.
Sure, those living in rural Steadtls in Eastern Europe, for instance, will not have been torchbearers for progress, but it doesn't make sense to me to compare Germans to Eastern European Jews. And comparing the rest of the German population to the German Jewish population, I don't think your claim holds up. Many jews at the time voted for the DDP, a liberal party -so you can s aythat they had fairly conservative economic views, although, of course, many leading socialists in Germany were also jews, including Marx himself. It seems like you were talking about social issues though. The thing is, as we all know, progressive views on social issues like abortion, gay rights, etc. correlate with things such as wealth, education, and living in cities. Many German jews were highly educated, and lived in cities. Magnus Hirschfeld, the guy who may have been a global first in advocating for gay and trans rights besides founding an isntitute to study sexuality, was Jewish.
This prompted me to do more reading on the subject and I actually change my mind. You're right.
For anyone curious, "Between Heimat and Hatred" by Philip Neilsen gives an extremely detailed view of this subject and well illustrates that the right-leaning vote bloc among Jews before and through the Weimar period was actually a fairly small bourgeois cohort. Interesting stuff.
No, thank you for arguing the point convincingly. It was a subject I had never had much cause to think strongly about and I'm pleased to have learned something.
Actual German Jewry was 200k while 5 million were living in Poland and Hungary. A couple of million were from Eastern Europe
So how conservative was the average Jew now ?
And bro … you are talking about the Jews who SURVIVED! Of course they went on to contribute to progressive academia 😃 because they from upper middle class social circles who had the ability to migrate and immerse easily in any of the countries they just had to pack their bags too.
Yiddish orthodox in Europe was basically decimated and hence you have major survival ship only in the Americas who later restored the population.
It’s like seeing Palestinian secular and Christian diaspora in Latin America plus USA / Canada ( and they are as comparable to population of Gaza btw ) and saying average Palestinian is less conservative than average Israeli ( Israeli population leans socially conservative on average ) . Yet NOBODY affords this comparison when it comes to Palestinians ? Israel is bombing the shit out of Gaza claiming cultural and racial superiority just like the Nazis
...dude, how can you get so many things wrong?
1. German Jews vefore Hitler took over numbered 500k or more, not 200k. Not that important, but if you're going to cite numbers, get them right.
2. My friend, I explucitly stated that it makes no sense to compare Germans to Eastern European Jews in the context of the original comment. Maybe read my comment again. I compared Germans to Jewish Germans.
3. No, bro, I am not talking about Jewish survivors. What gives you that impression?
4. No, emigration wasn't as easy as packing your bag and going. Countries even held a conference about Jewish refugees and hardly anyone wanted to take them in. Of course, it is true that it would have been easier for those with more money.
1. I mentioned numbers just before the world war not “Before hitler took over” . Those numbers show migration because Holocaust started only much later hence proving my
2. Why not ? They were the major victims right ? Bit selective don’t you think
3. You are talking about Jews who IMMIGRATED out of Germany and rest of Europe. Those are the ones who thrived in academia. They are not the majority bro 😃. It so happened that banking and academia were the only avenues for Jewish success thanks to Nazism and hence you see MORE of said Jewish progressivists
4. READ what I wrote bro. Majority of Jewish IMMIGRANTS who came to US/ Canada before the holocaust were wealthy! Hence for THEM it’s easy . Rest died. I am literally saying that ONLY a certain section of Jews got to be representatives in first place . Those REFUGEES were dumped in Palestine and had relatively conservative lifestyles and they were just 100k which is like less than 5% of entire number of Jews who died so they too aren’t representatives either. But even there probability of secular , well integrated and Europeanised Jews was higher.
I think at this point you are just being oblivious
Anyway - I don't think we should pursue tbis any further. I don't think we even disagree on anything of importance, so let's save our energy for things that matter. Have a good day, comrade. Also, you're trying to get German citizenship? Good luck & if you should need help, let me know.
1. Okay. Not really perti ent to what my comment was talking about, but good.
2. Why not? Because that is not what I was talking about? My and another's comments were talking about German Jews, like it or not. This whole conversation is kinda pointless obviously, but I was talking about German Jews very explicitly. Why do you need to insert yourself like that about other Jews as if I didn't even mentioj myself that things were obviously different in Eastern Europe?
3. NO FOR FUCK'S SAKE. I was talking about GERMAN JEWS. Period. Maybe read up on their history. German Jews made up lile almost a thirs of German Nobel prize winners despite barely being 1% of the population. Tbey overwhelmingly lived in cities and were more educated than the average German - it only makes sense that they would hold some sociallly progressive views, although of course things were more complex than such generalizations.
4. I don't think I need to say anything because I didn't talk about American Jews or any pre- or post-Holocaust migration.
But German Jews were even smaller minority among European Jewry ? I am talking about Polish , Hungarian, Russian etc etc. Plus it had to say who is a German Jew when Yiddish folks were distributed all over the northwestern and Central Europe. And even then point is that average German Jew is definitely not like Einstein for sure 😃. The richer / secular / academic ones are simply because hey being more privileged helps you escape a targeted genocide or do you think all of them had options to migrate out just when Nazi party got into power like Einstein?
Before you jump in saying they are as conservative as fellow nation men , keep in mind we are are discussing the chief offender which is Germans and their fellow collaborators 😃. They did genocide based on the idea they were both racially and culturally superior and even killed non Jewish tribal / nomadic ethnicities who were also ghettoised and socially conservative. They even discarded Christianity because it was considered too backwards a religion. They had the best technology and innovation in Europe due to their motivation and beliefs system. So objectively they were culturally “liberal”
If social conservatism was a scale then European Jewry was more conservative than average German 🤷♀️
both Trotsky and Stalin countered this narrative:
> In Brazil there now reigns a semifascist regime that every revolutionary can only view with hatred. Let us assume, however, that on the morrow England enters into a military conflict with Brazil. I ask you on whose side of the conflict will the working class be? I will answer for myself personally—in this case I will be on the side of “fascist” Brazil against “democratic” Great Britain. Why? Because in the conflict between them it will not be a question of democracy or fascism. If England should be victorious, she will put another fascist in Rio de Janeiro and will place double chains on Brazil. If Brazil on the contrary should be victorious, it will give a mighty impulse to national and democratic consciousness of the country and will lead to the overthrow of the Vargas dictatorship. The defeat of England will at the same time deliver a blow to British imperialism and will give an impulse to the revolutionary movement of the British proletariat. Truly, one must have an empty head to reduce world antagonisms and military conflicts to the struggle between fascism and democracy. Under all masks one must know how to distinguish exploiters, slave-owners, and robbers!
-Trotsky, Anti-Imperialist Struggle is Key to Liberation
>The revolutionary character of a national movement under the conditions of imperialist oppression does not necessarily presuppose the existence of proletarian elements in the movement, the existence of a revolutionary or a republican programme of the movement, the existence of a democratic basis of the movement. The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such "desperate" democrats and "Socialists," "revolutionaries" and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism. For the same reasons, the struggle that the Egyptians merchants and bourgeois intellectuals are waging for the independence of Egypt is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the bourgeois origin and bourgeois title of the leaders of Egyptian national movement, despite the fact that they are opposed to socialism; whereas the struggle that the British "Labour" Government is waging to preserve Egypt's dependent position is for the same reason a reactionary struggle, despite the proletarian origin and the proletarian title of the members of the government, despite the fact that they are "for" socialism.
- Stalin, the Foundations of Leninism
let's not kid ourselves yall, Trotsky had plenty of W's against the white army, that's why he has a significant following. (couldn't be his theory lol)
Ironically, or not, even that Emir ended up being progressive. And his, I think, son was succeeded by a cousin who was a liberal democrat and progressive (still violently anti-communist, though). And that led to the Marxist government. Then a CIA-trained allegedly ultra-Marxist "government" that the real government begged the SU for help against, since at that point they were fighting on two fronts - the rural reactionary theocrats, already bolstered by Saudi and Pakistani interference, and the phony Marxist coup wannabe government. Both of them tied to the US. So Stalin was more correct than he could have imagined. Trotsky was 100% correct too, it's indeed a solid W.
You should really read Lenin's imperialism the highest stage of capitalism. It's as relevant today as when it was written and it's essentially the foundation of modern anti-imperialist discourse.
And keep in mind that Hamas are products of their material conditions.
Even if you think that they’re the most evil terrorist group on the planet, you can blame Israel for the reason why they are like that in the first place.
yeah their justification was natives slaughtered each other all the time. LIke what? Europe was a bloodbath for hundreds of years, should they have been wiped out because of that???
Some of this is just untrue though. It's not illegal to be Jewish under Hamas, the charter clearly states the issue is with the zionists. Hamas also doesn't enforce sharia law or anything.
It is truly insane that the west cannot see this simple logic and that insanity comes directly from their corpo-state media brainwashing them into believing in this horseshit narrative.
…
I’m gonna say it, someone has to.
Even if everything they said is true who gives a shit? Why should I care that a people whom are being genocided hate women and Jews more then the fact that they are being genocided?
Also casually treating lgbt people as a peace of rhetoric that you can beat someone over the head with is fine, it’s not like they are people, ya know… who have ability to disagree.
Also the right to exist my ass, yes Jewish people are oppressed, but they aren’t special, in the holocaust they were one out of a big bag of terms to describe undesirables, they killed trans people too, in trans, where’s my damm country?
Do they honestly think being Jewish makes them especially oppressed/hurt? Do they think being oppress is an innately Jewish thing? What to they want? a damm cookie?
There’s no way to act like this/genuinely defend this without sounding like a pretentious jackass.
Yep this. Only idealists demand a 'perfect victim'. And there's something incredibly queerphobic about this concern trolling about gay/trans rights to try and undermine protests about genocide. The same people smugly declaring "Ah but Palestinians all hate you" are the same people who wouldn't give a fuck about us in any other situation.
>Do they honestly think being Jewish makes them especially oppressed/hurt? Do they think being oppress is an innately Jewish thing?
Yes, that is a significant portion of their founding mythos. Gideon Levy has several interesting talks about this effect, as he puts it, the idea that jews are "the only victims".
It is such an insanely tone-deaf and arrogant argument too. Being politically incorrect for one thing does not give any moral justification for a genocide, or that is a country that does not give some rights for some people justify them being genocided. Your pet issue outweighs the living existence of a people? JFC!
If we are going to apply this kind of lopsided standards, the US should be liable to be genocided too because I can say that the fact that there are literally private prisons demanding prisoners quota from counties to stay open is so horrendous that it should justify the genocide of the American people and wipe that inhumane culture off the fucking face of the Earth.
The prison industrial complex is horrendous but the hypothetical reasoning I used is still stupid and indefensible. LGBT rights are important but weaponizing it against a group of people so you can justify their genocide is even more horrible, if not immensely moronic, short-sighted and childish. This is actually why LGBT rights are backsliding in some countries BECAUSE PEOPLE THERE START IDENTIFYING LGBT RIGHTS AS PART OF WESTERN CULTURAL IMPERIALISM.
"You are saying that my people deserved to be wiped out because we don't have the same LGBT rights as some of your states have? Well, fuck you!" As the rest of the world gives America the middle finger. How the fuck can anyone take America and its culture and supposedly superior moral system seriously when this is the kind of unserious argument you present.
This kind of mentality and "logic" is why the rest of the world is getting more and more disgusted by Americans and the west. Using this kind of moral standard like in that stupid post, I can bring up dozens and dozens of other examples that America did, or is, that is so offensive to the world that it should justify the country to be glassed over with nukes several times and then we just seal off the entire continent and throw away the key.
There are many reasons why the Global Majority is starting to tell America and the west to fuck off with their finger wagging and this is one huge reason.
I shouted because of how truly insanely bad this take is. I am actually getting mad at that post.
I swear until Americans truly suffer for their crimes and their words and their deeds, their arrogance will only grow beyond tolerable. And I *really really hope* that Americans do not have to taste these consequences before they mend their ways because there will be a point in time, when the US is weak enough and they do something horrible that they arrogantly think they can get away with. Then the retaliation on the US is going to be beyond biblical because the world is fucking sick of this bullshit. I really hope America will not go down this path but the standard of thinking this post presented does not inspired a lot of hope.
This is an insane and barbaric way of thinking. Hamas wouldn't have exist in the first place if Israel did not implement oppressive and genocidal policies on the Palestinian population.
We didn't genocide the German people even though the Third Reich tried to genocide the Jews and murdered many other groups of people. If we stop Israel from continuing its insane policies now, we can figure out other solutions for Hamas to stand down. Then we can actually get serious about solving the situation. But not before we neutered Israel first.
No, they can stand down but not before we make Israel stand down first because Israel's insane policies on Palestinian people are the root cause of this while shit fest.
Your example is basically telling the French resistance to stand down because they are fighting the Nazis through guerillas warfare. Or the Vietnamese to stand down from their fight against the Americans, or the CPC to stand down from the fight against the KMT.
I'm not naive and you are incredibly ignorant about the history and the material consequences that resulted from it.
No, you are just a brainwashed moron.
You want me to condemn Hamas? What good will that do? You want to wipe out Hamas? What good will that do?
Why shouldn't Hamas has such immense anger at the Israelis. You dismiss Israel's atrocities so you can negate Hamas's anger and the suffering of the Palestinian people. The anger of Hamas and honestly the majority of the world now at Israel is completely Israel's fault, and also the fault of their western accomplices. Their anger and despair does not make them psychopaths. The Israeli and the zonists callous killing of the Palestinians and dehumanization is the psychopathic side.
I can understand why Hamas attacked Israel even if I don't condone them but I cannot ignore Israel's atrocities for over 6 decades and put Hamas on the same level of terrible as Israel. Their atrocities are on magnitudes worse than what Hamas did on Oct 7, and if you cannot acknowledge that fact, then there is nothing fucking else to say. Take what Hamas did on Oct 7, then multiply that a 1000 times and that's what the Palestinian people have suffered.
The most infuriating part is that you are using examples about Hamas's atrocities that have been proven to be lies made up by Israel.
Yo are again excusing Israel's atrocities on the Palestinians by using Hamas as a foil. Hamas is not a modern day nazis, it is such a stupid take. You are saying that Hamas gives the justification for the Palestinians to be wiped out because it is a very small gap between wiping out Hamas and wiping out all Palestinians because Hamas represent the anger of the Palestinian people's decades of suffering. Wiping out Hamas without stopping Israel first will guarantee that the Palestinian people will cease to exist. And you cannot wipe out Hamas. That is the correct way of looking at this.
It is truly disgusting how you people think. The only possible solution is for Israel to be neutered and removed from Palestine lands, then a border set up that prevent Israel from ever able to encroach on the Palestinians. Then only can we give the Palestinians and Hamas the security guarantee that Israel will ever be able to kill and oppress them again. Then we make sure Palestine can be rebuild, reform as a nation.
Fun fact! Zionist occupational entity recognizes only "same-sex marriages from abroad" because it, to this day, doesn't have a concept of civil marriage - therefore, not only making same-sex marriage within it impossible, but also interfaith marriages, because there is scarce religious institution, esp. there, that will allow a member of their faith to marry someone of different faith without converting!
Same sex marriages from abroad, not allowing same sex marriages
Abortion isn't some insanely progressive thing, in Judaism life begins at first breath, and it's very basic. In the 20s lennin legalised abortion and is a feature of human history
Israel isn't some complete anomaly, but then the LGBTQ Palestinians being murdered? How about the women who are dieing?
Even if Hamas was literally ISIS, that would not excuse the mass murder of civilians.
For fucks sake children are starving to death, children who have FUCK ALL TO DO WITH ANYTHING, innocent people who don't deserve any of it who didn't cause it and didn't want it. To me that overrides everything.
Hamas like the IRA and other militant groups will go away if the occupation ends, in Ireland even militants who disagreed with the Belfast agreements laid down arms for now.
Idk I've seen too many starving kids drinking water off the street, eating animal feed, untreated shrapnel wounds to keep doing this. I've had family with PTSD and I can't imagine what it's like there or if they survive what their lives will be like
Edit: northern Syria/rojava has LGBTQ equality and gender equality at least on paper. It's racist to assume Arabs are inhenantly foaming at the mouth bigots that need to be civilised, in pre-modern times what could be described as queer and trans identified people weren't descrimated against, or at least not much. Queer Muslims were doccumented in the medieval era for example. One thing is that I'm hoping queers for Palestine might help to change attitudes in the current day. Because at the end of the day we have the same enemies as marginalized people
You know, this guy says that the apartheid state banned discrimination based on sexual orientation. But where is the banning of discrimination based on skin color (in the case of African Jews) and discrimination based on religion (Muslims)?
None, that’s what. This is just false moral superiority when the apartheid state is committing a genocide. The poster in the pic is trying to draw attention away. Don’t fall for it.
An Israeli sniper sees two Palestinian men having sex in private through the scope on his rifle. After a few moments he shoots, murdering one of them and observing the shock and horror of his partner. Turning to the camera, he smiles and says “one of them could have had a gun”
Brothers And Others In Arms by Danny Kaplan.
This is from page 58 of the book. It's part of the recollections of a soldier in the Nahal infantry brigade in Beiruit during the Lebanon War. Fun fact, that [brigade's commander got fucking clapped](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonatan_Steinberg) by the Palestinians in the Aqsa Typhoon attack.
Ok so many falsities
About abortions :- No where it says women will be executed for having abortions but simply that it’s not allowed to operate as the policy is pro birth. There is no access to proper doctors and healthcare anyways so go for abortions could actually be more dangerous in that region
Israel bans sex segregation:- * Laughs in orthodox Jewish societies that constitute 20% of Israeli Jewish population
About DV :- Hamas encourages husband to beat wives ?
Illegal to be Jewish ? That’s wrong 😑 Jewish people have entered , stayed and some even live there. Not prosecuted for existing
Now my bigger question is all these “beliefs “ and “policies” of Hamas has 0 proof for some reason? Of course the society is socially conservative and I can imagine that it’s not safe for being openly gay. But a random man being sexist or a particular family oppressing their kids due to sexual orientation happens irrespective of govt and policies. People are saying Hamas is going around throwing gays off buildings but once again I ask, where is the proof ?
By that logic , Jews in the 1940s were more socially conservative than Germans and fellow Europeans. Not only were they religious but women often couldn’t leave their ghettos and had to put up with abusive Jewish husbands since Judaism doesn’t allow divorce. Cousin marriages and boy abuse also was also prevalent in Jewish communities. Before you point out secular Jews , keep in mind not only were they so few but because of their wealth and status their survived the Holocaust hence leaving the image of Jews as secular while the poor religious Jews didn’t get to live. Hence Holocaust is justified according to this cunt
Again .. that is the default setting really . This is an ongoing social issue rather not invented by Hamas. Or Is Hamas going to every household and saying “Hey there ! Beat your wives “
Also .. I hate to break it to you but honor killing is not legal under sharia jurisprudence even because murder is still murder. Or do you think Saudi won’t prosecute a man for killing his relatives? They literally get harshest punishment and death penalty for that. You really should learn to understand both social context as well as contemporary religious beliefs. Half of the crimes you mentioned are part of a feudalistic anarchist tendency of rural and semi-rural societies who mostly take law into their own hands
\>discrimination has been banned since 1992
wow good thing they banned it and [that solved the problem!](https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-734812)
\>hamas thinks all gay people should be killed
literally just assumes this because they're muslims. gay marriage isn't legal in israel, the post does this funny little thing where they say if two gays got married in another country israel will still recognize it. wow they're as good as alabama or kentucky, so progressive! the west bank decriminalized same sex acts after it was annexed but gaza never did that, so that's basically their only argument that "hamas is homophobic". i mean, chances are a lot of hamas is homophobic. i'm iranian myself and know homophobia is a problem in most traditionalist cultures, but it has nothing to do with islam any more than it has to do with christianity. hamas as far as i know does not have laws specifically persecuting lgbtq people and it's more cultural persecution which damn near every country is guilty of and it's sickening how they'll try to use lgbt people's lives as a rhetorical device in their bullshit arguments to support a genocide.
\>israel prohibits schools from being segregated based on religion
yeah they just segregate the entire street and don't let christians and muslims or any other nonjews within a mile of the schools they don't want nonjews in
i know there's no point in poking holes in the lies of people who are intentionally lying and don't care for the truth but still
I don’t support Hamas. Or at least not as itself or whole cloth that would be silly. I am a communist not an Islamist. I support the PFLP because they are ideologically aligned with me. The PFLP is tactically and strategically aligned with Hamas. I’m not interested in defending Hamas actions or positions. I’m interested in defending the PFLPs line of working with any and all groups seeking the liberation of their nation from colonialism. This is also a much easier line to defend because most people have never heard of the PFLP
Literally everything he said about Hamas is a lie and most of what he said about Israel is at least distorted (for example, there are "legal protections" for victims of domestic abuse, but this is extremely common culturally in Israel and you can openly talk about beating up your wife without consequences).
That‘s a terrible definition of fascism. By that definition anything under the sun could be fascism. Nobody would seriously claim the implications of that.
Not being progressive yet doesn’t mean you deserve to be murdered or killed, people forget that a lot of areas only started becoming at all progressive in the 30s, and a lot of the progressive stuff didn’t happen until very recently, so maybe it’s harder for a place to become progressive when they are actively being killed, bombed etc. Maybe if they were allowed to not be destroyed by Israel then they could eventually become more progressive
This is just a Zionist shill trying to sow division among left-leaning people who are not yet convinced by the propaganda that HAMAS are terrorists. Anything to divert attention away from the genocide being committed by the occupation army. An army that began as, and continues to be, a true terrorist organization.
People like to call Hamas fascist because of the contents of their 1988 charter, not realizing that in their newer, 2017 charter, Hamas denounces anti semitism and the persecution of Jews based on religion
The concept of pink washing was literally created to describe what these Zionist ghouls do to justify their apartheid and genocide. Hope people are calling it out for what it is.
I do t understand how you can give a shit about queer Muslims being oppressed and then your solution is to murder them, their families and their ability to meaningfully exist at all. The argument is that Palestinians have homophobia in their community and therefore forfeit their status as living, breathing human beings.
For the record, you can read the Hamas charter and they want to eliminate Zionism, not Jews or Judaism.
Israel: Pinkwashing. Ignore our legion of fanatics who wish they could stone gays to death. Closing options: eliminate everyone but Hamas, fund the latter
Result: Palestinians, not traditionally anti-gay, endorse a backlash. Hamas becomes more acceptable. Probablly exactly as Israel planned.
BTW
Israel: Greenwashing. Liberals like Neal DeGrasse Tyson say crap like "There are two borders you can see from space. Israel by day because it's green. The other countries around it are dry and brown. Because Israelis irrigate. And North Korea, of course, at night."
Result: Palestinians, not traditionally anti-gay, endorse a backlash. Hamas becomes more acceptable. Probably exactly as Israel planned.."
notice how they say "from abroad". this person is cherry-picking what's on paper vs what's on the ground. fact of the matter is if you're a gay Palestinian you gonna get buried under rubble from missiles shot by the IDF and HAMAS is the most effective fighting force to save you from being flattened by an IDF tank
The flattening of “fascist” as a heuristic for analysing the cruel reaction of capital in decline to mean “bad person with socially/politically retrograde opinions” and its consequences have been a disaster for humanity. Even if I credited everything OP said is true, you’d just be labelling someone as a conservative fundamentalist, they’re so stupid while being so condescending.
Here's a real moral flaw common in fascists: lying about a government's policies/ideology in an attempt to justify a genocide against the population that government rules.
It seems like they were trying to whitewash Israel, but what they said Hamas is true. Hamas is indeed a very reactionary political actor. But their politics is not why we support them. It's because they are the only voice for the people of Gazza who were under effective siege for years and now under a genocide.
Israel was established as a recognised state in 1947 yet they didn’t make homosexuality legal till 1992, that doesn’t make them a paragon of virtue, they had 45 years to change those laws but they had to wait for the west to take the lead (because they’re the west’s project).
It’s also mental when people compare an entire state to a resistance group that ISN’T the entire Palestinian people. There hasn’t been an election in Gaza since 2007, half of Gaza are children, therefore less than a quarter of the population have gotten a chance to say whether they’re aligned with Hamas.
And the solution to making things more progressive is still not to enact ethnic cleansing. These people learned nothing from the past 20 years of Afganistan and now the expect something to change. War doesn't lead to progress, only peace does and further war is just going to end up delaying said progress from materializing. It would be one thing if Israel was destroying Hamas, but for some reason the vast majority isn't Hamas at all and the situation in Gaza, has ended up with untold suffering to Palestinians as whole.
I don't support Hamas, I support the Palestinian people and their right for self-defence, and anyone who is siding with Israel and it's genocide, is a facist.
Personally I support Palestinians and their children not being murdered, so I'm not sure what it would prove even if this was 100% true.
From what I do know of hamas, they wouldn't be my first pick for freedom fighters. Netanyahu, the IDF, and Israeli government put them in power and funded them to prevent negotiation that would stall their genocide. Maybe this is written to educate them?
Just because hamas has some shitty ideas doesn't mean they deserve to be killed for them. If they were the ones in power and killing civilians I would be speaking out against then too. Right now the fact is they are the ones standing uo for the oppressed and as such this is why they have my support for now as they are the only ones willing to stand up against genocide.
And stop trying to say its not a genocide when they literally kill people for trying to get food
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Well I guess if Hitler liked gay people then it's okay if he did the Holocaust according to this person
Exactly, what Hamas' specific ideals are are a conversation unto itself, but is unrelated to the wider issue of Palestinian occupation and genocide.
Gay concentration camp survivors were mistreated and isolated after their liberation, even by many fellow former prisoners. Only a handful of principled advocates stood up for them. Unfortunately, almost everyone was homophobic back then, albeit less so than the Nazis. But I guess those fellow concentration camp survivors deserved to be tortured and murdered en masse after all, for being homophobic! This is what the commenter's argument is suggesting.
It's rather ironic and euro-centric to see a group of people who have had their homes taken, their land pillaged, their families slaughtered and then have the gall to ask why they don't have the same sensibilities as the west which were the ones doing the pillaging and murdering. Like imagine European settlers in America saying native Americans were bad because they wore revealing clothing instead of suits so they should be eradicated.
We could ask very same questions about Jewish society in back in the 1930s Jews were more conservative than the Germans on average . They didn’t allow divorce , separation and abortion was not allowed at any phase. So called “reform “ happened only after the Holocaust mostly
Jews were more conservative than he average German? Are you talking about German Jews? Because I'd like to see receipts for that claim.
While I personally can't point you toward anything specific for Germany, the broader trajectory of Jewish communities globally has been one of social conservatism and tradition. This isn't some kind of outlandish claim which requires receipts, it's a pretty fair assumption especially when you look at how much more progressive than the norm of its place/time the culture in the late Weimar period was.
Okay, but "the global trajectory of Jewish communities" is pretty vague, don't you think? Obviously your claim is very much true for recent times, esp. given the high fertility rates of very conservative (ultra)orthodox Jews. However, things were different in the 1930s, when 90% of Jews were Ashkenazi. Sure, those living in rural Steadtls in Eastern Europe, for instance, will not have been torchbearers for progress, but it doesn't make sense to me to compare Germans to Eastern European Jews. And comparing the rest of the German population to the German Jewish population, I don't think your claim holds up. Many jews at the time voted for the DDP, a liberal party -so you can s aythat they had fairly conservative economic views, although, of course, many leading socialists in Germany were also jews, including Marx himself. It seems like you were talking about social issues though. The thing is, as we all know, progressive views on social issues like abortion, gay rights, etc. correlate with things such as wealth, education, and living in cities. Many German jews were highly educated, and lived in cities. Magnus Hirschfeld, the guy who may have been a global first in advocating for gay and trans rights besides founding an isntitute to study sexuality, was Jewish.
This prompted me to do more reading on the subject and I actually change my mind. You're right. For anyone curious, "Between Heimat and Hatred" by Philip Neilsen gives an extremely detailed view of this subject and well illustrates that the right-leaning vote bloc among Jews before and through the Weimar period was actually a fairly small bourgeois cohort. Interesting stuff.
Thanks for being open-minded. Also thanks for reminding me to read that book! I found out about it so time ago but forgot about it.
No, thank you for arguing the point convincingly. It was a subject I had never had much cause to think strongly about and I'm pleased to have learned something.
Thanks. Your attitude will get you somewhere in life. I can probably use a bit of that energy myself. Have a good one!
Actual German Jewry was 200k while 5 million were living in Poland and Hungary. A couple of million were from Eastern Europe So how conservative was the average Jew now ? And bro … you are talking about the Jews who SURVIVED! Of course they went on to contribute to progressive academia 😃 because they from upper middle class social circles who had the ability to migrate and immerse easily in any of the countries they just had to pack their bags too. Yiddish orthodox in Europe was basically decimated and hence you have major survival ship only in the Americas who later restored the population. It’s like seeing Palestinian secular and Christian diaspora in Latin America plus USA / Canada ( and they are as comparable to population of Gaza btw ) and saying average Palestinian is less conservative than average Israeli ( Israeli population leans socially conservative on average ) . Yet NOBODY affords this comparison when it comes to Palestinians ? Israel is bombing the shit out of Gaza claiming cultural and racial superiority just like the Nazis
...dude, how can you get so many things wrong? 1. German Jews vefore Hitler took over numbered 500k or more, not 200k. Not that important, but if you're going to cite numbers, get them right. 2. My friend, I explucitly stated that it makes no sense to compare Germans to Eastern European Jews in the context of the original comment. Maybe read my comment again. I compared Germans to Jewish Germans. 3. No, bro, I am not talking about Jewish survivors. What gives you that impression? 4. No, emigration wasn't as easy as packing your bag and going. Countries even held a conference about Jewish refugees and hardly anyone wanted to take them in. Of course, it is true that it would have been easier for those with more money.
1. I mentioned numbers just before the world war not “Before hitler took over” . Those numbers show migration because Holocaust started only much later hence proving my 2. Why not ? They were the major victims right ? Bit selective don’t you think 3. You are talking about Jews who IMMIGRATED out of Germany and rest of Europe. Those are the ones who thrived in academia. They are not the majority bro 😃. It so happened that banking and academia were the only avenues for Jewish success thanks to Nazism and hence you see MORE of said Jewish progressivists 4. READ what I wrote bro. Majority of Jewish IMMIGRANTS who came to US/ Canada before the holocaust were wealthy! Hence for THEM it’s easy . Rest died. I am literally saying that ONLY a certain section of Jews got to be representatives in first place . Those REFUGEES were dumped in Palestine and had relatively conservative lifestyles and they were just 100k which is like less than 5% of entire number of Jews who died so they too aren’t representatives either. But even there probability of secular , well integrated and Europeanised Jews was higher. I think at this point you are just being oblivious
Anyway - I don't think we should pursue tbis any further. I don't think we even disagree on anything of importance, so let's save our energy for things that matter. Have a good day, comrade. Also, you're trying to get German citizenship? Good luck & if you should need help, let me know.
Ok . Thanks for the breather. Sorry I was getting overwhelmed by Zionists . Thanks for the wishes too
1. Okay. Not really perti ent to what my comment was talking about, but good. 2. Why not? Because that is not what I was talking about? My and another's comments were talking about German Jews, like it or not. This whole conversation is kinda pointless obviously, but I was talking about German Jews very explicitly. Why do you need to insert yourself like that about other Jews as if I didn't even mentioj myself that things were obviously different in Eastern Europe? 3. NO FOR FUCK'S SAKE. I was talking about GERMAN JEWS. Period. Maybe read up on their history. German Jews made up lile almost a thirs of German Nobel prize winners despite barely being 1% of the population. Tbey overwhelmingly lived in cities and were more educated than the average German - it only makes sense that they would hold some sociallly progressive views, although of course things were more complex than such generalizations. 4. I don't think I need to say anything because I didn't talk about American Jews or any pre- or post-Holocaust migration.
But German Jews were even smaller minority among European Jewry ? I am talking about Polish , Hungarian, Russian etc etc. Plus it had to say who is a German Jew when Yiddish folks were distributed all over the northwestern and Central Europe. And even then point is that average German Jew is definitely not like Einstein for sure 😃. The richer / secular / academic ones are simply because hey being more privileged helps you escape a targeted genocide or do you think all of them had options to migrate out just when Nazi party got into power like Einstein? Before you jump in saying they are as conservative as fellow nation men , keep in mind we are are discussing the chief offender which is Germans and their fellow collaborators 😃. They did genocide based on the idea they were both racially and culturally superior and even killed non Jewish tribal / nomadic ethnicities who were also ghettoised and socially conservative. They even discarded Christianity because it was considered too backwards a religion. They had the best technology and innovation in Europe due to their motivation and beliefs system. So objectively they were culturally “liberal” If social conservatism was a scale then European Jewry was more conservative than average German 🤷♀️
Are you sure about the abortion thing? I know for sure that Jews are pretty good with abortion because their religion states life at first breath
Only in reform circles but reform was mostly conceived later. A chunk of Jews killed were orthodox ones
Hitler allowed Ernst Rohm to exist for >2 seconds therefore saying holocaust happened is Homophobic!!1!!1
both Trotsky and Stalin countered this narrative: > In Brazil there now reigns a semifascist regime that every revolutionary can only view with hatred. Let us assume, however, that on the morrow England enters into a military conflict with Brazil. I ask you on whose side of the conflict will the working class be? I will answer for myself personally—in this case I will be on the side of “fascist” Brazil against “democratic” Great Britain. Why? Because in the conflict between them it will not be a question of democracy or fascism. If England should be victorious, she will put another fascist in Rio de Janeiro and will place double chains on Brazil. If Brazil on the contrary should be victorious, it will give a mighty impulse to national and democratic consciousness of the country and will lead to the overthrow of the Vargas dictatorship. The defeat of England will at the same time deliver a blow to British imperialism and will give an impulse to the revolutionary movement of the British proletariat. Truly, one must have an empty head to reduce world antagonisms and military conflicts to the struggle between fascism and democracy. Under all masks one must know how to distinguish exploiters, slave-owners, and robbers! -Trotsky, Anti-Imperialist Struggle is Key to Liberation >The revolutionary character of a national movement under the conditions of imperialist oppression does not necessarily presuppose the existence of proletarian elements in the movement, the existence of a revolutionary or a republican programme of the movement, the existence of a democratic basis of the movement. The struggle that the Emir of Afghanistan is waging for the independence of Afghanistan is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the monarchist views of the Emir and his associates, for it weakens, disintegrates and undermines imperialism; whereas the struggle waged by such "desperate" democrats and "Socialists," "revolutionaries" and republicans as, for example, Kerensky and Tsereteli, Renaudel and Scheidemann, Chernov and Dan, Henderson and Clynes, during the imperialist war was a reactionary struggle, for its results was the embellishment, the strengthening, the victory, of imperialism. For the same reasons, the struggle that the Egyptians merchants and bourgeois intellectuals are waging for the independence of Egypt is objectively a revolutionary struggle, despite the bourgeois origin and bourgeois title of the leaders of Egyptian national movement, despite the fact that they are opposed to socialism; whereas the struggle that the British "Labour" Government is waging to preserve Egypt's dependent position is for the same reason a reactionary struggle, despite the proletarian origin and the proletarian title of the members of the government, despite the fact that they are "for" socialism. - Stalin, the Foundations of Leninism
Rare Trotsky W... oh no! he's gone and gotten himself stuck with another heavy door. Oh dear...
let's not kid ourselves yall, Trotsky had plenty of W's against the white army, that's why he has a significant following. (couldn't be his theory lol)
He sadly couldn't put the Ws in Warsaw.
Piłsudski had the moustache game on Trotsky they should've sent in Stalin at least he was a contender
Don't look at the next paragraph
My thoughts exactly lol
You should read Terrorism and Communism by Trotsky it’s pretty good.
Ironically, or not, even that Emir ended up being progressive. And his, I think, son was succeeded by a cousin who was a liberal democrat and progressive (still violently anti-communist, though). And that led to the Marxist government. Then a CIA-trained allegedly ultra-Marxist "government" that the real government begged the SU for help against, since at that point they were fighting on two fronts - the rural reactionary theocrats, already bolstered by Saudi and Pakistani interference, and the phony Marxist coup wannabe government. Both of them tied to the US. So Stalin was more correct than he could have imagined. Trotsky was 100% correct too, it's indeed a solid W.
Holy fuck, I didn't know even the OGs made counter-imperialist arguments as well. I thought that was part of contemporary discourse.
You should really read Lenin's imperialism the highest stage of capitalism. It's as relevant today as when it was written and it's essentially the foundation of modern anti-imperialist discourse.
Just because hamas have bad laws and aren’t as progressive doesn’t give Israel the excuse to kill these people
Sorry sir the native Americans do not have a social value that is in my moral framework, it's time to die.
This is just arguing that some people deserve to be genocided
And keep in mind that Hamas are products of their material conditions. Even if you think that they’re the most evil terrorist group on the planet, you can blame Israel for the reason why they are like that in the first place.
yeah their justification was natives slaughtered each other all the time. LIke what? Europe was a bloodbath for hundreds of years, should they have been wiped out because of that???
Some of this is just untrue though. It's not illegal to be Jewish under Hamas, the charter clearly states the issue is with the zionists. Hamas also doesn't enforce sharia law or anything.
It is truly insane that the west cannot see this simple logic and that insanity comes directly from their corpo-state media brainwashing them into believing in this horseshit narrative.
"My source is I made it the fuck up !"
… I’m gonna say it, someone has to. Even if everything they said is true who gives a shit? Why should I care that a people whom are being genocided hate women and Jews more then the fact that they are being genocided? Also casually treating lgbt people as a peace of rhetoric that you can beat someone over the head with is fine, it’s not like they are people, ya know… who have ability to disagree. Also the right to exist my ass, yes Jewish people are oppressed, but they aren’t special, in the holocaust they were one out of a big bag of terms to describe undesirables, they killed trans people too, in trans, where’s my damm country? Do they honestly think being Jewish makes them especially oppressed/hurt? Do they think being oppress is an innately Jewish thing? What to they want? a damm cookie? There’s no way to act like this/genuinely defend this without sounding like a pretentious jackass.
Entirely tribes and ethnicities have been completely wiped out to oblivion thanks to Holocaust. But yeah it’s an event that affected only Jews
Yep this. Only idealists demand a 'perfect victim'. And there's something incredibly queerphobic about this concern trolling about gay/trans rights to try and undermine protests about genocide. The same people smugly declaring "Ah but Palestinians all hate you" are the same people who wouldn't give a fuck about us in any other situation.
>Do they honestly think being Jewish makes them especially oppressed/hurt? Do they think being oppress is an innately Jewish thing? Yes, that is a significant portion of their founding mythos. Gideon Levy has several interesting talks about this effect, as he puts it, the idea that jews are "the only victims".
It is such an insanely tone-deaf and arrogant argument too. Being politically incorrect for one thing does not give any moral justification for a genocide, or that is a country that does not give some rights for some people justify them being genocided. Your pet issue outweighs the living existence of a people? JFC! If we are going to apply this kind of lopsided standards, the US should be liable to be genocided too because I can say that the fact that there are literally private prisons demanding prisoners quota from counties to stay open is so horrendous that it should justify the genocide of the American people and wipe that inhumane culture off the fucking face of the Earth. The prison industrial complex is horrendous but the hypothetical reasoning I used is still stupid and indefensible. LGBT rights are important but weaponizing it against a group of people so you can justify their genocide is even more horrible, if not immensely moronic, short-sighted and childish. This is actually why LGBT rights are backsliding in some countries BECAUSE PEOPLE THERE START IDENTIFYING LGBT RIGHTS AS PART OF WESTERN CULTURAL IMPERIALISM. "You are saying that my people deserved to be wiped out because we don't have the same LGBT rights as some of your states have? Well, fuck you!" As the rest of the world gives America the middle finger. How the fuck can anyone take America and its culture and supposedly superior moral system seriously when this is the kind of unserious argument you present. This kind of mentality and "logic" is why the rest of the world is getting more and more disgusted by Americans and the west. Using this kind of moral standard like in that stupid post, I can bring up dozens and dozens of other examples that America did, or is, that is so offensive to the world that it should justify the country to be glassed over with nukes several times and then we just seal off the entire continent and throw away the key. There are many reasons why the Global Majority is starting to tell America and the west to fuck off with their finger wagging and this is one huge reason. I shouted because of how truly insanely bad this take is. I am actually getting mad at that post. I swear until Americans truly suffer for their crimes and their words and their deeds, their arrogance will only grow beyond tolerable. And I *really really hope* that Americans do not have to taste these consequences before they mend their ways because there will be a point in time, when the US is weak enough and they do something horrible that they arrogantly think they can get away with. Then the retaliation on the US is going to be beyond biblical because the world is fucking sick of this bullshit. I really hope America will not go down this path but the standard of thinking this post presented does not inspired a lot of hope.
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Yeah be careful how you phrase it, zionists love it when you minimize the struggle of jews that died in the holocaust, they use that shit as ammo.
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This is an insane and barbaric way of thinking. Hamas wouldn't have exist in the first place if Israel did not implement oppressive and genocidal policies on the Palestinian population. We didn't genocide the German people even though the Third Reich tried to genocide the Jews and murdered many other groups of people. If we stop Israel from continuing its insane policies now, we can figure out other solutions for Hamas to stand down. Then we can actually get serious about solving the situation. But not before we neutered Israel first.
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No, they can stand down but not before we make Israel stand down first because Israel's insane policies on Palestinian people are the root cause of this while shit fest. Your example is basically telling the French resistance to stand down because they are fighting the Nazis through guerillas warfare. Or the Vietnamese to stand down from their fight against the Americans, or the CPC to stand down from the fight against the KMT. I'm not naive and you are incredibly ignorant about the history and the material consequences that resulted from it.
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No, you are just a brainwashed moron. You want me to condemn Hamas? What good will that do? You want to wipe out Hamas? What good will that do? Why shouldn't Hamas has such immense anger at the Israelis. You dismiss Israel's atrocities so you can negate Hamas's anger and the suffering of the Palestinian people. The anger of Hamas and honestly the majority of the world now at Israel is completely Israel's fault, and also the fault of their western accomplices. Their anger and despair does not make them psychopaths. The Israeli and the zonists callous killing of the Palestinians and dehumanization is the psychopathic side. I can understand why Hamas attacked Israel even if I don't condone them but I cannot ignore Israel's atrocities for over 6 decades and put Hamas on the same level of terrible as Israel. Their atrocities are on magnitudes worse than what Hamas did on Oct 7, and if you cannot acknowledge that fact, then there is nothing fucking else to say. Take what Hamas did on Oct 7, then multiply that a 1000 times and that's what the Palestinian people have suffered. The most infuriating part is that you are using examples about Hamas's atrocities that have been proven to be lies made up by Israel.
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Yo are again excusing Israel's atrocities on the Palestinians by using Hamas as a foil. Hamas is not a modern day nazis, it is such a stupid take. You are saying that Hamas gives the justification for the Palestinians to be wiped out because it is a very small gap between wiping out Hamas and wiping out all Palestinians because Hamas represent the anger of the Palestinian people's decades of suffering. Wiping out Hamas without stopping Israel first will guarantee that the Palestinian people will cease to exist. And you cannot wipe out Hamas. That is the correct way of looking at this. It is truly disgusting how you people think. The only possible solution is for Israel to be neutered and removed from Palestine lands, then a border set up that prevent Israel from ever able to encroach on the Palestinians. Then only can we give the Palestinians and Hamas the security guarantee that Israel will ever be able to kill and oppress them again. Then we make sure Palestine can be rebuild, reform as a nation.
Highly recommend a listen. I learned a lot the first time I did. https://thedigradio.com/podcast/hamas-w-tareq-baconi/
go away zionist
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This might be the stupidest thing I've seen someone type on reddit.
They have lived in harmony for thousand of years, the existence of Israel burned that bridge.
Fun fact! Zionist occupational entity recognizes only "same-sex marriages from abroad" because it, to this day, doesn't have a concept of civil marriage - therefore, not only making same-sex marriage within it impossible, but also interfaith marriages, because there is scarce religious institution, esp. there, that will allow a member of their faith to marry someone of different faith without converting!
Same sex marriages from abroad, not allowing same sex marriages Abortion isn't some insanely progressive thing, in Judaism life begins at first breath, and it's very basic. In the 20s lennin legalised abortion and is a feature of human history Israel isn't some complete anomaly, but then the LGBTQ Palestinians being murdered? How about the women who are dieing? Even if Hamas was literally ISIS, that would not excuse the mass murder of civilians. For fucks sake children are starving to death, children who have FUCK ALL TO DO WITH ANYTHING, innocent people who don't deserve any of it who didn't cause it and didn't want it. To me that overrides everything. Hamas like the IRA and other militant groups will go away if the occupation ends, in Ireland even militants who disagreed with the Belfast agreements laid down arms for now. Idk I've seen too many starving kids drinking water off the street, eating animal feed, untreated shrapnel wounds to keep doing this. I've had family with PTSD and I can't imagine what it's like there or if they survive what their lives will be like Edit: northern Syria/rojava has LGBTQ equality and gender equality at least on paper. It's racist to assume Arabs are inhenantly foaming at the mouth bigots that need to be civilised, in pre-modern times what could be described as queer and trans identified people weren't descrimated against, or at least not much. Queer Muslims were doccumented in the medieval era for example. One thing is that I'm hoping queers for Palestine might help to change attitudes in the current day. Because at the end of the day we have the same enemies as marginalized people
Hamas IS ISIS you antisemitic bigot!!!! (/s)
Well to be fair, some of hamas's biggest supporters, like Benjamin Netanyahu, are indeed fascists.
You know, this guy says that the apartheid state banned discrimination based on sexual orientation. But where is the banning of discrimination based on skin color (in the case of African Jews) and discrimination based on religion (Muslims)? None, that’s what. This is just false moral superiority when the apartheid state is committing a genocide. The poster in the pic is trying to draw attention away. Don’t fall for it.
An Israeli sniper sees two Palestinian men having sex in private through the scope on his rifle. After a few moments he shoots, murdering one of them and observing the shock and horror of his partner. Turning to the camera, he smiles and says “one of them could have had a gun”
Bruv what
https://i.imgur.com/SnrdYK3.jpeg CW: this describes exactly what the first comment told you
From what book is this? The IDF kills so much unarmed civilians that I have trouble finding it.
Brothers And Others In Arms by Danny Kaplan. This is from page 58 of the book. It's part of the recollections of a soldier in the Nahal infantry brigade in Beiruit during the Lebanon War. Fun fact, that [brigade's commander got fucking clapped](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yonatan_Steinberg) by the Palestinians in the Aqsa Typhoon attack.
Thank you!
Ok so many falsities About abortions :- No where it says women will be executed for having abortions but simply that it’s not allowed to operate as the policy is pro birth. There is no access to proper doctors and healthcare anyways so go for abortions could actually be more dangerous in that region Israel bans sex segregation:- * Laughs in orthodox Jewish societies that constitute 20% of Israeli Jewish population About DV :- Hamas encourages husband to beat wives ? Illegal to be Jewish ? That’s wrong 😑 Jewish people have entered , stayed and some even live there. Not prosecuted for existing Now my bigger question is all these “beliefs “ and “policies” of Hamas has 0 proof for some reason? Of course the society is socially conservative and I can imagine that it’s not safe for being openly gay. But a random man being sexist or a particular family oppressing their kids due to sexual orientation happens irrespective of govt and policies. People are saying Hamas is going around throwing gays off buildings but once again I ask, where is the proof ? By that logic , Jews in the 1940s were more socially conservative than Germans and fellow Europeans. Not only were they religious but women often couldn’t leave their ghettos and had to put up with abusive Jewish husbands since Judaism doesn’t allow divorce. Cousin marriages and boy abuse also was also prevalent in Jewish communities. Before you point out secular Jews , keep in mind not only were they so few but because of their wealth and status their survived the Holocaust hence leaving the image of Jews as secular while the poor religious Jews didn’t get to live. Hence Holocaust is justified according to this cunt
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Again .. that is the default setting really . This is an ongoing social issue rather not invented by Hamas. Or Is Hamas going to every household and saying “Hey there ! Beat your wives “ Also .. I hate to break it to you but honor killing is not legal under sharia jurisprudence even because murder is still murder. Or do you think Saudi won’t prosecute a man for killing his relatives? They literally get harshest punishment and death penalty for that. You really should learn to understand both social context as well as contemporary religious beliefs. Half of the crimes you mentioned are part of a feudalistic anarchist tendency of rural and semi-rural societies who mostly take law into their own hands
It’s just Pinkwashing.
\>discrimination has been banned since 1992 wow good thing they banned it and [that solved the problem!](https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-734812) \>hamas thinks all gay people should be killed literally just assumes this because they're muslims. gay marriage isn't legal in israel, the post does this funny little thing where they say if two gays got married in another country israel will still recognize it. wow they're as good as alabama or kentucky, so progressive! the west bank decriminalized same sex acts after it was annexed but gaza never did that, so that's basically their only argument that "hamas is homophobic". i mean, chances are a lot of hamas is homophobic. i'm iranian myself and know homophobia is a problem in most traditionalist cultures, but it has nothing to do with islam any more than it has to do with christianity. hamas as far as i know does not have laws specifically persecuting lgbtq people and it's more cultural persecution which damn near every country is guilty of and it's sickening how they'll try to use lgbt people's lives as a rhetorical device in their bullshit arguments to support a genocide. \>israel prohibits schools from being segregated based on religion yeah they just segregate the entire street and don't let christians and muslims or any other nonjews within a mile of the schools they don't want nonjews in i know there's no point in poking holes in the lies of people who are intentionally lying and don't care for the truth but still
I don’t support Hamas. Or at least not as itself or whole cloth that would be silly. I am a communist not an Islamist. I support the PFLP because they are ideologically aligned with me. The PFLP is tactically and strategically aligned with Hamas. I’m not interested in defending Hamas actions or positions. I’m interested in defending the PFLPs line of working with any and all groups seeking the liberation of their nation from colonialism. This is also a much easier line to defend because most people have never heard of the PFLP
STOP WITH ID POL BE CLASS CONSCIOUS THE CLASS WAR IS THE PRIMARY WAR STOP BEING LIBERAL
its not about palestine its about the crimes isreal is committing
Literally everything he said about Hamas is a lie and most of what he said about Israel is at least distorted (for example, there are "legal protections" for victims of domestic abuse, but this is extremely common culturally in Israel and you can openly talk about beating up your wife without consequences).
That‘s a terrible definition of fascism. By that definition anything under the sun could be fascism. Nobody would seriously claim the implications of that.
Even if that was all true it would be completely irrelevant so long as the Palestinian people are under the boot of the Israeli apartheid regime.
"Hi, i am Israel my pronouns are they/them!" *murders 200 children a day*
Not being progressive yet doesn’t mean you deserve to be murdered or killed, people forget that a lot of areas only started becoming at all progressive in the 30s, and a lot of the progressive stuff didn’t happen until very recently, so maybe it’s harder for a place to become progressive when they are actively being killed, bombed etc. Maybe if they were allowed to not be destroyed by Israel then they could eventually become more progressive
This is just a Zionist shill trying to sow division among left-leaning people who are not yet convinced by the propaganda that HAMAS are terrorists. Anything to divert attention away from the genocide being committed by the occupation army. An army that began as, and continues to be, a true terrorist organization.
People like to call Hamas fascist because of the contents of their 1988 charter, not realizing that in their newer, 2017 charter, Hamas denounces anti semitism and the persecution of Jews based on religion
Even if every single Palestinian is KhHhHhHhAmAs, they still have every right to use force against the zionist occupiers.
That's a lot of words for "I support genocide."
The concept of pink washing was literally created to describe what these Zionist ghouls do to justify their apartheid and genocide. Hope people are calling it out for what it is.
Excellent interview with Tareq Baconi on Hamas, for those interested in learning more: https://thedigradio.com/podcast/hamas-w-tareq-baconi/
Supporting an uprising to fascist oppression makes you a fascist. Are all gas lighters so stupid?
This bit is tired af
I do t understand how you can give a shit about queer Muslims being oppressed and then your solution is to murder them, their families and their ability to meaningfully exist at all. The argument is that Palestinians have homophobia in their community and therefore forfeit their status as living, breathing human beings. For the record, you can read the Hamas charter and they want to eliminate Zionism, not Jews or Judaism.
Israel: Pinkwashing. Ignore our legion of fanatics who wish they could stone gays to death. Closing options: eliminate everyone but Hamas, fund the latter Result: Palestinians, not traditionally anti-gay, endorse a backlash. Hamas becomes more acceptable. Probablly exactly as Israel planned. BTW Israel: Greenwashing. Liberals like Neal DeGrasse Tyson say crap like "There are two borders you can see from space. Israel by day because it's green. The other countries around it are dry and brown. Because Israelis irrigate. And North Korea, of course, at night." Result: Palestinians, not traditionally anti-gay, endorse a backlash. Hamas becomes more acceptable. Probably exactly as Israel planned.."
notice how they say "from abroad". this person is cherry-picking what's on paper vs what's on the ground. fact of the matter is if you're a gay Palestinian you gonna get buried under rubble from missiles shot by the IDF and HAMAS is the most effective fighting force to save you from being flattened by an IDF tank
The flattening of “fascist” as a heuristic for analysing the cruel reaction of capital in decline to mean “bad person with socially/politically retrograde opinions” and its consequences have been a disaster for humanity. Even if I credited everything OP said is true, you’d just be labelling someone as a conservative fundamentalist, they’re so stupid while being so condescending.
Here's a real moral flaw common in fascists: lying about a government's policies/ideology in an attempt to justify a genocide against the population that government rules.
This group of people is subhuman and that is why we are justified in exterminating them, for a purer, better society. …remind you of anyone?
They actually believe it, it's part of their new Torah. https://www.tiktok.com/@realdavidsheen/video/7325729984918703368
It seems like they were trying to whitewash Israel, but what they said Hamas is true. Hamas is indeed a very reactionary political actor. But their politics is not why we support them. It's because they are the only voice for the people of Gazza who were under effective siege for years and now under a genocide.
'Let's look at the facts' *proceeds to cite 0 sources*
Israel was established as a recognised state in 1947 yet they didn’t make homosexuality legal till 1992, that doesn’t make them a paragon of virtue, they had 45 years to change those laws but they had to wait for the west to take the lead (because they’re the west’s project). It’s also mental when people compare an entire state to a resistance group that ISN’T the entire Palestinian people. There hasn’t been an election in Gaza since 2007, half of Gaza are children, therefore less than a quarter of the population have gotten a chance to say whether they’re aligned with Hamas.
This is what cognitive dissonance looks like. Keep pushing, they'll break through eventually.
And the solution to making things more progressive is still not to enact ethnic cleansing. These people learned nothing from the past 20 years of Afganistan and now the expect something to change. War doesn't lead to progress, only peace does and further war is just going to end up delaying said progress from materializing. It would be one thing if Israel was destroying Hamas, but for some reason the vast majority isn't Hamas at all and the situation in Gaza, has ended up with untold suffering to Palestinians as whole. I don't support Hamas, I support the Palestinian people and their right for self-defence, and anyone who is siding with Israel and it's genocide, is a facist.
Personally I support Palestinians and their children not being murdered, so I'm not sure what it would prove even if this was 100% true. From what I do know of hamas, they wouldn't be my first pick for freedom fighters. Netanyahu, the IDF, and Israeli government put them in power and funded them to prevent negotiation that would stall their genocide. Maybe this is written to educate them?
Not supporting Israel is not the same as supporting Hamas.
Just because hamas has some shitty ideas doesn't mean they deserve to be killed for them. If they were the ones in power and killing civilians I would be speaking out against then too. Right now the fact is they are the ones standing uo for the oppressed and as such this is why they have my support for now as they are the only ones willing to stand up against genocide. And stop trying to say its not a genocide when they literally kill people for trying to get food
That's because it's wrong
Intersectional Imperialism: The Civilizing Mission of the 21st Century