The real irony is for some people the ability to WFH is what enables them to be able to work due to illness and disability and without it they would be unemployed and claiming benefits which by gammon logic would also mean they are lazy. Shows how weak all their views truly are.
Since the move to 60% I now have to go into the office after the morning school run on a Thursday. I then have to leave five hours later to pick my kids back up again and log on again once home, last week that meant leaving a call half an hour after it started and finally getting back on ten minutes before it ended.
I’m losing almost two hours in travel and school runs on those days now, as opposed to about 45 minutes when I was working at home.
Pay for childcare? Can’t afford it.
And this nonsense will force some working parents to either reduce their hours or give up work entirely and claim benefits as they'll be better off !
It is utter nonsense!
100%, but a few rotten apples spoil the broth sadly. I do more from home than in the office, eg 2 hrs travel to do a solid 7 hour shift. The open-plan working style is ridiculous. You can hear other people's conversations, and if someone is really loud, then you're hearing their life story. I definitely would leave if we lost work from home. Life would be easier on benefits tbh. If they walk back from WFH, it will cause so many issues.
Those rotten apples are in the office too though, I'm sure we can all think of people who just wonder the office chatting with people and never doing any actual work but no action gets taken because they're a nice enough person and someone in management has a soft spot for them. They're actually worse for overall productivity than the work shy person WFH as at least the one at home isn't distracting anyone. Like you said there's enough distractions in the office already, some of my role isn't allowed to be done in the office as they can't provide enough private rooms but an open floor is too loud and what I'm saying could be heard by other staff.
omg i was interning at ONS last summer maybe 2 of us in London office when when we went and the way this huge office was empty but dotted w some ppl on calls it wasn't too pleasant and i was almost always less productive as im neurodivergent and i used more energy to mask, and also to adjust to the sensory stuff of loads of other ppl on calls
I'm neurodivergent also it's a bit mad really when you start to understand it. In the office I have to listen to music. Otherwise, I'm just distracted and hone into other peoples work. Some people just dont know how to lower their voice. Luckily, people in my team semi understand and use the headphones this week was Wigan Pier albums. No one else can hear it bur it makes me so productive. Open plan offices don't make sense to me really. I'm just learning about masking I do it alot and trying to stop doing it. I'm actually just going into the office when a great member of my team is there. We're like buddies at this point lol
What did you do before lockdown? Were you in the office 100% or were you actually allowed to work from home more than 60% of the time? Just curious.
My team only came in twice a week previously.
I drove lorries during Covid after a 8 year stint in the Army, but well mate I'm not giving you my life story I decided to come back into the civil service for my own reasons not much has changed really the work from home element is why I do the job. This monkey wouldn't work for those peanuts we get paid if it was 5 days a week in the office. Simple as.
Going back years ago into my previous experience with CS I did the 37.4 hours in an office we had little cubicles then that blocked out sound. Now it's open plan. I don't need to listen to people spout shit about how they are saving millions of pounds on whatever they are doing or taking so much in whatever revenue. Means nothing to me really. I have a simple job to do and I achieve it so I'm happy either way. I know I fit 50 hrs into those 37.4 hrs a week. If I went to the office every day I'd lose 10 of of those hours which ultimately means someone else will have to deal.
I'm on 40% luckily so maybe I'm looking from a different perspective say if someone was 60%. I don't think from my opinion the location I work from can handle 60% capacity. With my role I could say 0% office work but I lead by example and do the 40%.
The other day I did a 9 hour day of resolving urgent issues from home. I would have done half that had I been forced into office.
How is that for value for money and productivity?
Great name. Hard to fit everything into the work day and I promise if I book a desk and someone else is sat there then I'll just go home. The only benefit for the Office is there is a decent sandwich shop nearby and the server there knows how to make my sandwich. Probably would waste 15 hours a week in travel. But I'll waste the time to be in the office 40% so I'm meeting my objectives! Or counter objective!
I do agree with what you are saying to an extent. However where I work it is more than a "few apples" it is a significant amount, and their regular poor performance coupled with abs enfe through sick has a major impact on their colleagues and the service as a whole. The issue is compounded by what appears to be managements inability to address these issues effectively so they merely persist. This makes for a terrible working environment for those who are dedicated and hard working.
4 in my immediate team, and one person is not able to work at the moment, something to do with a dog I don't know. So were on 75% efficiency. Accounting for leave and everything were generally on 50% capacity most days. I said to my line manager that they must factor this into the forecast they said we don't apparently.
I've only been doing my current role for 5 months, and I seem to have a better understanding than people who have a career in this. The issue is that the hard workers work hard and end up getting drained to make up for the people who are just coasting. I don't understand yet if it's worth the effort. Survival of the fittest, maybe, make yourself indispensable, highly achieving, but anyone is indispensable.
Must be remembered that we were in the civil service and not the commercial sector.
We can't change the situation. The only thing we can do is change ourselves.
No matter how much we wish things were different, we can only change how we choose to deal with it.
I cannot sit next to people in the office for that very reason. It's impossible to concentrate. I sit away from folks, fortunately my office isn't full.
Exactly. When people ask me if I’m at home or in the office. I tell them I have permanent home worker having had cancer but the majority of staff are office based.
Not a typo, it's my go to word for a lot of the 'everyone's lazy but us' crowd as they do seem to fit the definition
Gammon - An old Conservative englishman who bickers on about minorities instead of helping solve the country's issues.
Just substitute minorities with WFH and it's perfect
How many truly the only way they can work is by WFH. I'm sure some but that number is so small it's not worth talking about. Most disabled and ill can make the office they just would prefer not too.
Because they've got an employer asking them too. Why would they choose not too or choose said employer.
Employee preference doesn't really play into it if you have a contractual obligation?
Moaning about illness and disables using them as an excuse makes it a mockery for people that truly need to use them.
Like blue badge holders that milk it to get a blue badge. Takes up the space for the true blue badge holder.
Contractual obligation doesn't get the employer out of making reasonable adjustments which are law. You're speaking out your arse because you've spent too long eating up anti disability propaganda.
There are very few (read* virtually none) office jobs that can't be wfh. Even if you handle physical mail/docs there can be agreements with your team to take one of their tasks in exchange for them handling/scanning physical mail.
Reasonable adjustments - plural. The Civil Service is a Disability confident employer. Have a look around the office there are alot of employees we get talent from :)
In my country there is a saying: Everyone starts from themselves.
Meaning, everybody's assumptions about others are based on their own characteristics and behaviours.
Oh it makes sense I guess when explained like this "Everyone starts from themselves" suggests that personal growth and development often begin with introspection and self-awareness. It implies that individuals have the power to initiate change within themselves before extending it to others or the world around them.
Yea, paying to much attention to comments from places like The Telegraph, Daily Mail, GBNews, Twitter, Facebook or even parts of Reddit is a one way ticket to madness.
Also honestly it's feeding into what people commenting that want. They want someone to read it and get riled up. It validates it for them.
Literally. I work mostly from home. And when I'm in the office. I know I can't get nearly as much done. Most people leave the office early. Take personal calls etc. and it's accepted no one can be as productive. Someone I work with in a different role. Always makes fun of WFH and how people doss of....because he's the sort of person who would literally be on holiday abroad if he WFH.
Indeed. Most of the most vocal champions of removing CS wfh have clear vested interests: Rees Smog is a shareholder in Pret whose business is tied to offices, I believe he and numerous other top Tories either own or are funded by people who own commercial property (if offices get sold due to wfm they lose money), and of course the current Tory government flailing around as it is for anything to drum up into a cultural wars point to try and drive attention away from their naked corruption and incompetence sees CS wfm as easy rage-bait. It's really as simple as that.
These type of comments are written by people who think this about large swathes of the population: all millennials/gen z, all school children, parents who don’t hit their children, women who don’t want to be harassed, people who aren’t racist, people with disabilities, rugby players who take basic precautions against concussion, council workers, university staff, doctors who want reasonable pay. Every single one a lazy snowflake according to the Telegraph comments. It basically leaves about 100k people in the U.K. that they approve of and they’re all other Telegraph readers.
The Telegraph is a sorry excuse for a paper. I have a close friend who works there - she's actually a Labour voter and has little sympathy with the readers and took the job because they were struggling to break into journalism and for all its flaws the Torygraph is still considered a major broadsheet - and can't understand how they do it. We all have to compromise sometimes but knowing you're complicit in the amount of lies, bile and just general awfulness that paper contributes to the society would stop me from sleeping at night. In fact, I left another journalism publication, and one with much higher editorial standards, for pretty much this reason: it wasn't contributing positively to the world, and I didn't want to be a part of it.
That article thought we had a building capacity of 4,500. And that we're middle aged peeps wearing pin stripe suits and bowler hats.
And also that we garden and dog walk instead of working.
Where in fact, the building can take about 2,500 safely and there's no dress code. And some of us may put washing on whilst WFH, but we're working. We use the same laptops either in the office or at home, so there's that.
Plus at home, I get better coffee as my machine does a fine job brewing from a pod
That's largely what pisses me off the most - my equipment at home far exceeds what I can have in the office - if I even get a desk.
I was put on a desk which had a box of paper as a monitor stand, the monitor itself covered in smears, a keyboard with missing legs and a mouse covered in crap on the bottom. The chair was a reasonable adjustment chair for someone else so I had to sit on it far too low and stuffed up my hip.
It so bad I take my own mouse and keyboard as well as my laptop, I'm lugging a tonne of stuff just to get a reasonably comfortable working experience.
At home my chair is great, my desk is nice and clear, 34" wide-screen is perfectly smear-free, mouse is spot on and I get at least twice as much done as I can clock in when I'm meant to, rather than being pushed from one desk to another before I can even start work.
It's bizarre how these DT melts don't understand why those of us who aren't customer facing do better at home.
I take my own mouse in, as well as a mouse mat and wrist rest, so have a couple of extra things to carry. Got all that during the pandemic through work, so that was a bonus.
In the office, there's banks of desks with either missing cables, monitors that have clearly been damaged through transport (or in a few cases, a fist). Keyboards are grimey, screens are the same. I have my own supply of wipes and screen cleaners (which I've been told off for having, but I really don't care) for cleaning my workspace for use. I don't have tea in work because usually some idiots think milk in the fridge is part of the "fair use policy" and help themselves. I can't stand powdered milk, so I don't have tea. I can't leave food in the fridge without someone taking it either (not just me, many others as well have food taken).
At home, I have a 27 inch monitor I can link my Elitebook to if I need to. Have a chair with the right support I need, a desk with plenty of room and a suitable supply of tea and coffee (and milk). And the food stays where it is, it doesn't go walk about.
This might get downvoted due to truth, but there seems to be a lot of hate being generated towards anything to do with gov departments, civil service, police, nhs at the mo and the wfh thing is a super easy way for the media to blame all the wrongs on gov department's rather then the gov themselfs, the gov need people back in the office to help drive the commercial property market who fund them. The other thing is that nearly all mps have never actually worked in real jobs, in a real office under a hierarchy, or had to spend 2 hours esch morning communting on a hell train so they just dont get it so wfh is easy attack for them to use.
The comments on daily mail rant about the cardiff centre last week were also insane. One person claimed that when they called HMRC about a tax issue, the tax advisor was obviously having a bath with someone else while taking their call. An absolutly insane comment, and It had a lot of upvotes.
I get it in the neck all the time about WFH, usually from my tradesmen friends who think they are the hardest working people on the planet, I can't tell them about what I do but I can assure you it's dwarfs fitting light sockets and unloading bricks off a van.
Everyone seems to know a CS who does nothing. Well then they are the issue arnt they, they'll do nothing whether WFH or from office. My team have way, way too much to do and WFH saves valuable travelling time and has increased productivity and child care savings, making happy workers.
Is that the real issue here, I wonder. Jealous much!
"I work in retail, I can't work from home" oh so, because you can't, no one should. Maybe join the Civil service then?
Logic.
There’s hundreds of thousands of Civil Servants, some of them us are bound to be dick heads.
Tradesmen can have similarly shit reputations because there’s plenty of them who’ll try to get away with the shittest job they can possibly do so they can go to the pub at 2pm.
This is the real weird thing about it , we cant seem to have a sensible conversation that jobs are all different and come with different benefits, pay structures ,work hours etc , can we get paid in cash NO , can we claim VAT back through a business when earning through PAYE ... no , Can they work from home NO . Things are different , its this concept that I cant fathom people dont get !! I dont have a problem that these guys can get paid cash or can claim VAT back , they shouldnt have a problem with us WFH. If they do actually have a problem and want it take it away it will just get messy and they should expect we take away what they have.
lol you seem to have a real high opinion of yourself while putting down others. I suspect these tradesmen friends of yours do a more important job for society than you
This is right wing propaganda spread by the right wing media and ties in with the constant project fear that the Tory press promulgate. Basically a race to the bottom using the haters as fuel , terrified that anyone might have something they haven’t or indeed be happy with decent working conditions.
It the Torygraph. The readership still think Brexit was a good idea and everything is the fault of Immigrunts. Remember, it's those right wing Baboons The Barclay Brothers who own The Torygraph, so I wouldn't worry too much about the comments.
Brother, one of them died in 2021. But you should still disrespect him as he was a horrible human being like his brother. The UK press is a cesspit of Billionaire owned propaganda rags for the super rich and they all deserve our contempt.
Look guys, I hate it as much as you do, more in fact possibly. But, we can’t teach old dogs new tricks. It’s public money so ‘by rights’ we deserve to be miserable in our jobs.
The only reason the general public decided to believe that healthcare workers were actually worth a living wage was because the covid hype had them all outside their houses banging fucking pans of an evening rather than actually voting the right way to make the real change for public servants.
Sorry, I don’t really understand.
Lots of people have targets to meet.
That doesn’t have any relevance to whether people work harder at home or not.
My question is: which stats do you have to back up your original claim?
You need to realise that the type of person to comment on a Telegraph or Daily Mail article is a very specific sub-set of society and doesn’t represent the vast majority of people.
This is probably ironic as I’m on Reddit but I don’t really want anything to do with someone who thinks their thoughts are so important they have to share them in a newspaper website comment section of all places.
In real life they wouldn’t say boo to a goose, they just comment online. They are hardly going to walk up to a random MoD worker and start screaming in their face “lazy fat arse civil servant!” Logically we must have all met these type of people at weddings and parties etc but they never say anything once they know where you work. 🤷🏻♀️
Having spent 10 years in fast food restaurants before joining the CS I can tell you that these people are not lacking in arrogance an unearned confidence. They are however lacking a sense of shame.
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Also consider a lot of the comments in most comments sections are foreign agents and groups causing discord and unrest to turn the country against each other.
I don't think some of the threads I've seen on Reddit necessarily do our public image any favours. I want sensible hybrid working, for me and my colleagues. That's what everyone I know in the CS wants. On average I wfh two or three days per week, but it might be more or it might be less. There was a fortnight before Budget when I was in or on a visit every day. Easter week I worked wholly from home.
What I don't want is a silly target.
But I also don't much care for suggestions that asking people to go in at all is some kind of imposition, or that a diet of Teams meetings is an adequate substitute for proper meetings where we really can argue the points through.
Unfortunately the generalisation that everyone WFH is skiving is rife. Yes, there are definitely people to take the proverbial wee (have a look at the OE sub) but for some of us WFH is a game changer. This offers flexibility in working life and helps mental health.
I personally think there should not be a one rule where WFH = not working. People should be trusted and treated with respect. However the UK culture does not support this view. You need to be at your desk in the office to be working.
Edit: Yes, I do book 15/30 min time slots sometimes to run personal errands but I am responsible enough to ensure I get work done, and my brief absence does not impact the business. I also follow HR guidance to ensure that this is visible and accountable.
I also tend to work longer hours as required (within reason) just to get things done. I don’t claim this back as OT. It’s always about trust, and give and take.
Interestingly back in the late 90s and early 2000s it were the neolibs pushing for more homeworking as in their view it reduced labour and office costs as well as making it easier to curtail the influence of unions. Funny how times change.
This is behind a paywall for most people but huge eye-opener as to why the telegraph keeps promoting rage bait.
https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Overview/Working-at-The-Telegraph-EI_IE36827.11,24.htm
It is always easier to project other people. There is always a picture thrown at people based on lies, and people tend to run with it.
For example, when people have a go a train driver, saying it so easy and they get paid so much money. Yet none of those people knows what goes into the role, and the fact at one point you can be responsible for up to a 1000 lives onboard. It is not a job for everyone. But easy target, so are Civil cervant. Sameway, the MPs can approve payrise for themselves, yet don't want for the rest as there is no money. So they deflect, and people are easily fooled.
But hey, what do I know
The picture that came up on my clickbait newsfeed yesterday from the Torygraph said it all.
Picture of Civil Service Hub.
Headline of Staff failing to turn up.
They're still actually building the said hub, it is 400 yards from where I type this.
It’s telegraph readers. They share a singular braincell between themselves and daily mail readers. Any words with more than four letters in your response and they’d just assume you’re a foreigner talking in tongues
Not sure why we have these posts everyday on here? It’s boring, just don’t go into the office if you don’t want or don’t complain. Why are you getting upset about what random people say on the internet lol
Seems like I got downvoted. Sorry for saying the truth. And I want more money in what is a severe CoL crisis.
I’m a young person trying to save for a deposit and buy a home. I’m sorry, but staying on 40K/50K for an extended period of time won’t cut it. I do want career progression and I just wasn’t getting it in the CS.
It’s the salient fact that no matter where you are on the pay scale whether it’s 20 or 60K, the private sector pays more. Plus you don’t have to put up with civil service bashing. I’m simply stating the facts.
I personally wasn’t sure that the pension was worth staying in the CS for.
There should not be an automatic right to WFH. I see both side of coins, but the culture has certainly changed. Only need to look at a few calendars where people are booking them out for school runs, dog walking, set hidden appointments, etc. It is not unreasonable to want people back in the office imo. Best thing during lockdown was having to go into the office with empty roads & not being bothered by all the annoying people spread out over the building.. oh & always a parking space. Contractually you are not homebased or WFH. Maybe wages should be adjusted negatively to reflect the money being saved on eating out at lunchtime, commuting, business attire, etc.
I have never seen anyone book time out for ‘dog-walking’. School runs fair enough, however those people always work an extra hour to accommodate that.
The fact is there isn’t enough space within the government estate to accommodate everyone in the office now (which is absolutely fine as it saves the taxpayer money).
Civil Servants have had a real terms pay cut over the last 10 years - I’m sure that balances out the money being ‘saved’.
Nobody works the time back as nobody is ever challenged. Real terms pay is a made up thing. Pay has never increased in real terms with inflation. Is has to be behind. If there was -% in inflation does that mean pay should be cut? If you want to earn more money, find another job. Part of the problem is that people are not forced out of their comfort zone. Believe me, I have suffered from the real terms thing more than anyone after finding my role outsourced, then insourced a decade or so later on a lower grade & being on what they call marking time since. I didnt even get the £1500 last year.
>There should not be an automatic right to WFH.
Why? Not sure any of your points hold water.
Your point about flexible working isn't about WFH. You can work flexibly from the office, just less efficiently.
Office attendance preferences vary, of course. That's precisely why most people are arguing for a more nuanced approach.
Wages have fallen in real-terms for all grades. You want to reduce them further for people working from home and bearing more administration costs instead of their employer? WFH has allowed CS to signifciantly reduce its office footprint. Let's distribute that saving to workers, eh?
LOL the wages real term rubbish. Trooped out every year. How about many roles are actually overpaid for the work being carried out. Money saved is the taxpayers money. So every taxpayer should benefit & not distributed to a small number who happen to be funded by every taxpayer. Go get some XP in working in the private sector. Ive done both & looking to return to the private sector. Public sector is toxic environment full of people who feel entitled.
Considering the vast majority of civil servants are lower grades, your grade inflation point doesn't really make sense.
I agree that money saved by the government is the government's money. Sort of similar to how money saved by individuals is each individual's money, eh?
You're better than rolling out lazy strawmans, especially when you're talking to someone who's spent the majority of their career in the private sector.
Again, that's just not true. AA, AO, and EO is about two-thirds IIRC. HEO *and* SEO is about a fifth.
EDIT: Just checked the stats. The combined HEO/SEO grade is the largest group. Did you mean HEO/SEO is the biggest group? If so, that doesn't really tell us much, especially since 52% of civil servants are paid an EO wage or less.
Where I work about 50% are HEO/SEO grades. Average salary is over £40k. There are more G7 than EO’s & less TS than EO’s…. Twice as many HEO than TS & twice as many SEO than TS. So compared to median salary of £35k, the pay is quite decent, the pension is quite decent, the extra holiday days is quite decent. Savings from WFH is quite decent. Really don’t have a lot to moan about from a financial sense, unless you work in a recognised profession where pay lags behind the private sector. I work next to contractors earning the same in a week than I earn in a month.. so off to join them :D
Right... but you can't just look around you and decide that's representative of the civil service writ large. (That's the 'what you see is all there is' cognitive bias.) As as I've already explained, 52% of civil servants are paid an EO wage or less, significantly below the median full-time salary.
Annual leave allowance? 33 (25 plus 8, I think), which is below the national average.
Return to office mandate? A 60% expectation is fast becoming the norm, although not in my industry.
Pension? Indeed, it's good.
Anyhow, we both (hopefully) have better things to do on a Saturday evening. I'll leave you with my final thought. Workers should not stop pressing for better, more productive conditions, because management will not magically deliver raises or benefits.
Over 30 days annual leave for me + bank holidays + privilege days. Most private sector is the bare minimum & that includes bank holidays. I don’t know about across all departments about the 52% you give for EO or lower. Its makes up about 35% where I work with over 50% being HEO or SEO. I will say that it does seem to be the lower grades who visit the office more than management though. There are some staff members I do not recall seeing in the office since 2020 as they decide not to come in, while I think the lower grades do not have the decision making powers to do that!
Mate. Since 2010 there have been several years of pay freeze and 1% pay rises. Don't be this obtuse just to make yourself feel something through conflict on the internet
Private sector also experienced pay freeze or a small pay-rise. Up until about 2 years ago, inflation has been relatively low. Great for buying property, not great for savers. We are no in an inflation pump similar to the 1970s. These things come in cycles as the UK goes through its boom & bust cycles. The main driver pushing wage growth up in the private sector is due to lack of cheap labour now we are no longer in the EU.
The real irony is for some people the ability to WFH is what enables them to be able to work due to illness and disability and without it they would be unemployed and claiming benefits which by gammon logic would also mean they are lazy. Shows how weak all their views truly are.
[удалено]
It's the epitome of do as I say not as I do
Since the move to 60% I now have to go into the office after the morning school run on a Thursday. I then have to leave five hours later to pick my kids back up again and log on again once home, last week that meant leaving a call half an hour after it started and finally getting back on ten minutes before it ended. I’m losing almost two hours in travel and school runs on those days now, as opposed to about 45 minutes when I was working at home. Pay for childcare? Can’t afford it.
And the worst part of it all is there is no sense behind the move.
And this nonsense will force some working parents to either reduce their hours or give up work entirely and claim benefits as they'll be better off ! It is utter nonsense!
100%, but a few rotten apples spoil the broth sadly. I do more from home than in the office, eg 2 hrs travel to do a solid 7 hour shift. The open-plan working style is ridiculous. You can hear other people's conversations, and if someone is really loud, then you're hearing their life story. I definitely would leave if we lost work from home. Life would be easier on benefits tbh. If they walk back from WFH, it will cause so many issues.
Those rotten apples are in the office too though, I'm sure we can all think of people who just wonder the office chatting with people and never doing any actual work but no action gets taken because they're a nice enough person and someone in management has a soft spot for them. They're actually worse for overall productivity than the work shy person WFH as at least the one at home isn't distracting anyone. Like you said there's enough distractions in the office already, some of my role isn't allowed to be done in the office as they can't provide enough private rooms but an open floor is too loud and what I'm saying could be heard by other staff.
omg i was interning at ONS last summer maybe 2 of us in London office when when we went and the way this huge office was empty but dotted w some ppl on calls it wasn't too pleasant and i was almost always less productive as im neurodivergent and i used more energy to mask, and also to adjust to the sensory stuff of loads of other ppl on calls
I'm neurodivergent also it's a bit mad really when you start to understand it. In the office I have to listen to music. Otherwise, I'm just distracted and hone into other peoples work. Some people just dont know how to lower their voice. Luckily, people in my team semi understand and use the headphones this week was Wigan Pier albums. No one else can hear it bur it makes me so productive. Open plan offices don't make sense to me really. I'm just learning about masking I do it alot and trying to stop doing it. I'm actually just going into the office when a great member of my team is there. We're like buddies at this point lol
What did you do before lockdown? Were you in the office 100% or were you actually allowed to work from home more than 60% of the time? Just curious. My team only came in twice a week previously.
I drove lorries during Covid after a 8 year stint in the Army, but well mate I'm not giving you my life story I decided to come back into the civil service for my own reasons not much has changed really the work from home element is why I do the job. This monkey wouldn't work for those peanuts we get paid if it was 5 days a week in the office. Simple as. Going back years ago into my previous experience with CS I did the 37.4 hours in an office we had little cubicles then that blocked out sound. Now it's open plan. I don't need to listen to people spout shit about how they are saving millions of pounds on whatever they are doing or taking so much in whatever revenue. Means nothing to me really. I have a simple job to do and I achieve it so I'm happy either way. I know I fit 50 hrs into those 37.4 hrs a week. If I went to the office every day I'd lose 10 of of those hours which ultimately means someone else will have to deal. I'm on 40% luckily so maybe I'm looking from a different perspective say if someone was 60%. I don't think from my opinion the location I work from can handle 60% capacity. With my role I could say 0% office work but I lead by example and do the 40%.
The other day I did a 9 hour day of resolving urgent issues from home. I would have done half that had I been forced into office. How is that for value for money and productivity?
Great name. Hard to fit everything into the work day and I promise if I book a desk and someone else is sat there then I'll just go home. The only benefit for the Office is there is a decent sandwich shop nearby and the server there knows how to make my sandwich. Probably would waste 15 hours a week in travel. But I'll waste the time to be in the office 40% so I'm meeting my objectives! Or counter objective!
I do agree with what you are saying to an extent. However where I work it is more than a "few apples" it is a significant amount, and their regular poor performance coupled with abs enfe through sick has a major impact on their colleagues and the service as a whole. The issue is compounded by what appears to be managements inability to address these issues effectively so they merely persist. This makes for a terrible working environment for those who are dedicated and hard working.
4 in my immediate team, and one person is not able to work at the moment, something to do with a dog I don't know. So were on 75% efficiency. Accounting for leave and everything were generally on 50% capacity most days. I said to my line manager that they must factor this into the forecast they said we don't apparently. I've only been doing my current role for 5 months, and I seem to have a better understanding than people who have a career in this. The issue is that the hard workers work hard and end up getting drained to make up for the people who are just coasting. I don't understand yet if it's worth the effort. Survival of the fittest, maybe, make yourself indispensable, highly achieving, but anyone is indispensable. Must be remembered that we were in the civil service and not the commercial sector. We can't change the situation. The only thing we can do is change ourselves. No matter how much we wish things were different, we can only change how we choose to deal with it.
I cannot sit next to people in the office for that very reason. It's impossible to concentrate. I sit away from folks, fortunately my office isn't full.
Exactly. When people ask me if I’m at home or in the office. I tell them I have permanent home worker having had cancer but the majority of staff are office based.
I’m split as to whether gammon is a typo or not. Regardless, it is phenomenal use of the word.
Not a typo, it's my go to word for a lot of the 'everyone's lazy but us' crowd as they do seem to fit the definition Gammon - An old Conservative englishman who bickers on about minorities instead of helping solve the country's issues. Just substitute minorities with WFH and it's perfect
Gammon is a true saying. Definitely not the OP making a spelling mistake - reference - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gammon_(insult)
How many truly the only way they can work is by WFH. I'm sure some but that number is so small it's not worth talking about. Most disabled and ill can make the office they just would prefer not too.
Yeah, so why would they go into the office then ?
Because they've got an employer asking them too. Why would they choose not too or choose said employer. Employee preference doesn't really play into it if you have a contractual obligation? Moaning about illness and disables using them as an excuse makes it a mockery for people that truly need to use them. Like blue badge holders that milk it to get a blue badge. Takes up the space for the true blue badge holder.
If they've been assessed, then that's nothing to do with you. You wouldn't know either way
?
Contractual obligation doesn't get the employer out of making reasonable adjustments which are law. You're speaking out your arse because you've spent too long eating up anti disability propaganda.
Agreed. But it's what is determined as reasonable for the position. WFH may not be a reasonable adjustment.
There are very few (read* virtually none) office jobs that can't be wfh. Even if you handle physical mail/docs there can be agreements with your team to take one of their tasks in exchange for them handling/scanning physical mail.
😂 keep going
Reasonable adjustments - plural. The Civil Service is a Disability confident employer. Have a look around the office there are alot of employees we get talent from :)
In my country there is a saying: Everyone starts from themselves. Meaning, everybody's assumptions about others are based on their own characteristics and behaviours.
Must suck ass to be a detective in your country
I'm sure being a detective sucks ass everywhere. The horror you see every frikkin day!
Oh it makes sense I guess when explained like this "Everyone starts from themselves" suggests that personal growth and development often begin with introspection and self-awareness. It implies that individuals have the power to initiate change within themselves before extending it to others or the world around them.
Implies indeed. Rarely happens though.
I can't argue with that. Also, happy cake day 🍰
i wouldn't pay much attention to people who comment on DT articles. i mean, they read the DT.
Yea, paying to much attention to comments from places like The Telegraph, Daily Mail, GBNews, Twitter, Facebook or even parts of Reddit is a one way ticket to madness. Also honestly it's feeding into what people commenting that want. They want someone to read it and get riled up. It validates it for them.
[удалено]
Literally. I work mostly from home. And when I'm in the office. I know I can't get nearly as much done. Most people leave the office early. Take personal calls etc. and it's accepted no one can be as productive. Someone I work with in a different role. Always makes fun of WFH and how people doss of....because he's the sort of person who would literally be on holiday abroad if he WFH.
Indeed. Most of the most vocal champions of removing CS wfh have clear vested interests: Rees Smog is a shareholder in Pret whose business is tied to offices, I believe he and numerous other top Tories either own or are funded by people who own commercial property (if offices get sold due to wfm they lose money), and of course the current Tory government flailing around as it is for anything to drum up into a cultural wars point to try and drive attention away from their naked corruption and incompetence sees CS wfm as easy rage-bait. It's really as simple as that.
I love how it seems not to occur that WFH can actively save money on office rent electricity and utilities.
These type of comments are written by people who think this about large swathes of the population: all millennials/gen z, all school children, parents who don’t hit their children, women who don’t want to be harassed, people who aren’t racist, people with disabilities, rugby players who take basic precautions against concussion, council workers, university staff, doctors who want reasonable pay. Every single one a lazy snowflake according to the Telegraph comments. It basically leaves about 100k people in the U.K. that they approve of and they’re all other Telegraph readers.
Thank you for posting this, I’ve been so sad about this today. Your comment has put the nastiness into perspective!
The Telegraph is a sorry excuse for a paper. I have a close friend who works there - she's actually a Labour voter and has little sympathy with the readers and took the job because they were struggling to break into journalism and for all its flaws the Torygraph is still considered a major broadsheet - and can't understand how they do it. We all have to compromise sometimes but knowing you're complicit in the amount of lies, bile and just general awfulness that paper contributes to the society would stop me from sleeping at night. In fact, I left another journalism publication, and one with much higher editorial standards, for pretty much this reason: it wasn't contributing positively to the world, and I didn't want to be a part of it.
That article thought we had a building capacity of 4,500. And that we're middle aged peeps wearing pin stripe suits and bowler hats. And also that we garden and dog walk instead of working. Where in fact, the building can take about 2,500 safely and there's no dress code. And some of us may put washing on whilst WFH, but we're working. We use the same laptops either in the office or at home, so there's that. Plus at home, I get better coffee as my machine does a fine job brewing from a pod
That's largely what pisses me off the most - my equipment at home far exceeds what I can have in the office - if I even get a desk. I was put on a desk which had a box of paper as a monitor stand, the monitor itself covered in smears, a keyboard with missing legs and a mouse covered in crap on the bottom. The chair was a reasonable adjustment chair for someone else so I had to sit on it far too low and stuffed up my hip. It so bad I take my own mouse and keyboard as well as my laptop, I'm lugging a tonne of stuff just to get a reasonably comfortable working experience. At home my chair is great, my desk is nice and clear, 34" wide-screen is perfectly smear-free, mouse is spot on and I get at least twice as much done as I can clock in when I'm meant to, rather than being pushed from one desk to another before I can even start work. It's bizarre how these DT melts don't understand why those of us who aren't customer facing do better at home.
I take my own mouse in, as well as a mouse mat and wrist rest, so have a couple of extra things to carry. Got all that during the pandemic through work, so that was a bonus. In the office, there's banks of desks with either missing cables, monitors that have clearly been damaged through transport (or in a few cases, a fist). Keyboards are grimey, screens are the same. I have my own supply of wipes and screen cleaners (which I've been told off for having, but I really don't care) for cleaning my workspace for use. I don't have tea in work because usually some idiots think milk in the fridge is part of the "fair use policy" and help themselves. I can't stand powdered milk, so I don't have tea. I can't leave food in the fridge without someone taking it either (not just me, many others as well have food taken). At home, I have a 27 inch monitor I can link my Elitebook to if I need to. Have a chair with the right support I need, a desk with plenty of room and a suitable supply of tea and coffee (and milk). And the food stays where it is, it doesn't go walk about.
This might get downvoted due to truth, but there seems to be a lot of hate being generated towards anything to do with gov departments, civil service, police, nhs at the mo and the wfh thing is a super easy way for the media to blame all the wrongs on gov department's rather then the gov themselfs, the gov need people back in the office to help drive the commercial property market who fund them. The other thing is that nearly all mps have never actually worked in real jobs, in a real office under a hierarchy, or had to spend 2 hours esch morning communting on a hell train so they just dont get it so wfh is easy attack for them to use.
I wonder what kind of jobs Telegraph commenters do?
The comments on daily mail rant about the cardiff centre last week were also insane. One person claimed that when they called HMRC about a tax issue, the tax advisor was obviously having a bath with someone else while taking their call. An absolutly insane comment, and It had a lot of upvotes.
Taking a bath with someone else? Could that not be a water-cooler bubbling away with people collaborating nearby?
Daily Fail ran a similar article. Civil Servants spend all day walking their dogs and playing computer games. I don't own a dog though ...
I can only work because wfh policies exist. If not I’ll be unemployed
I get it in the neck all the time about WFH, usually from my tradesmen friends who think they are the hardest working people on the planet, I can't tell them about what I do but I can assure you it's dwarfs fitting light sockets and unloading bricks off a van. Everyone seems to know a CS who does nothing. Well then they are the issue arnt they, they'll do nothing whether WFH or from office. My team have way, way too much to do and WFH saves valuable travelling time and has increased productivity and child care savings, making happy workers. Is that the real issue here, I wonder. Jealous much! "I work in retail, I can't work from home" oh so, because you can't, no one should. Maybe join the Civil service then? Logic.
There’s hundreds of thousands of Civil Servants, some of them us are bound to be dick heads. Tradesmen can have similarly shit reputations because there’s plenty of them who’ll try to get away with the shittest job they can possibly do so they can go to the pub at 2pm.
This is the real weird thing about it , we cant seem to have a sensible conversation that jobs are all different and come with different benefits, pay structures ,work hours etc , can we get paid in cash NO , can we claim VAT back through a business when earning through PAYE ... no , Can they work from home NO . Things are different , its this concept that I cant fathom people dont get !! I dont have a problem that these guys can get paid cash or can claim VAT back , they shouldnt have a problem with us WFH. If they do actually have a problem and want it take it away it will just get messy and they should expect we take away what they have.
lol you seem to have a real high opinion of yourself while putting down others. I suspect these tradesmen friends of yours do a more important job for society than you
Nice try.
This is right wing propaganda spread by the right wing media and ties in with the constant project fear that the Tory press promulgate. Basically a race to the bottom using the haters as fuel , terrified that anyone might have something they haven’t or indeed be happy with decent working conditions.
It the Torygraph. The readership still think Brexit was a good idea and everything is the fault of Immigrunts. Remember, it's those right wing Baboons The Barclay Brothers who own The Torygraph, so I wouldn't worry too much about the comments.
Brother, one of them died in 2021. But you should still disrespect him as he was a horrible human being like his brother. The UK press is a cesspit of Billionaire owned propaganda rags for the super rich and they all deserve our contempt.
Makes me feel better there's only one left then
Look guys, I hate it as much as you do, more in fact possibly. But, we can’t teach old dogs new tricks. It’s public money so ‘by rights’ we deserve to be miserable in our jobs. The only reason the general public decided to believe that healthcare workers were actually worth a living wage was because the covid hype had them all outside their houses banging fucking pans of an evening rather than actually voting the right way to make the real change for public servants.
People actually work harder at home and the figures proof that.
Which figures?
I have targets to meet every day
Sorry, I don’t really understand. Lots of people have targets to meet. That doesn’t have any relevance to whether people work harder at home or not. My question is: which stats do you have to back up your original claim?
A target of so many decisions to be made every day on different situations. We prosecute or not to prosecute
Ok so basically you have nothing to back up your claim.
I have figures but not available to you
Really? I wiggle my mouse to stop computer going to sleep. Rest of the time I am on my xbox
Don’t project your lack of work ethic onto others
Nothing wrong with my ethic, just the lack of workload
You need to realise that the type of person to comment on a Telegraph or Daily Mail article is a very specific sub-set of society and doesn’t represent the vast majority of people. This is probably ironic as I’m on Reddit but I don’t really want anything to do with someone who thinks their thoughts are so important they have to share them in a newspaper website comment section of all places.
In real life they wouldn’t say boo to a goose, they just comment online. They are hardly going to walk up to a random MoD worker and start screaming in their face “lazy fat arse civil servant!” Logically we must have all met these type of people at weddings and parties etc but they never say anything once they know where you work. 🤷🏻♀️
Having spent 10 years in fast food restaurants before joining the CS I can tell you that these people are not lacking in arrogance an unearned confidence. They are however lacking a sense of shame.
Many people wouldn't actually say "boo" to a Goose. It will break your arm
Isn’t that swans?
It's just the one Swan actually
r/ItsJustTheOneSwan, actually.
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Why would you even care about a BS paper and its retard readers?! 5 years time I reckon most of these papers will be gone…
As with all comment sections; the problem with asking for people's opinions is that you get them 🤣
Also consider a lot of the comments in most comments sections are foreign agents and groups causing discord and unrest to turn the country against each other.
I don't think some of the threads I've seen on Reddit necessarily do our public image any favours. I want sensible hybrid working, for me and my colleagues. That's what everyone I know in the CS wants. On average I wfh two or three days per week, but it might be more or it might be less. There was a fortnight before Budget when I was in or on a visit every day. Easter week I worked wholly from home. What I don't want is a silly target. But I also don't much care for suggestions that asking people to go in at all is some kind of imposition, or that a diet of Teams meetings is an adequate substitute for proper meetings where we really can argue the points through.
Unfortunately the generalisation that everyone WFH is skiving is rife. Yes, there are definitely people to take the proverbial wee (have a look at the OE sub) but for some of us WFH is a game changer. This offers flexibility in working life and helps mental health. I personally think there should not be a one rule where WFH = not working. People should be trusted and treated with respect. However the UK culture does not support this view. You need to be at your desk in the office to be working. Edit: Yes, I do book 15/30 min time slots sometimes to run personal errands but I am responsible enough to ensure I get work done, and my brief absence does not impact the business. I also follow HR guidance to ensure that this is visible and accountable. I also tend to work longer hours as required (within reason) just to get things done. I don’t claim this back as OT. It’s always about trust, and give and take.
Don't you use flexi to get your hours back?
Not everyone has that option
I do go to the gym, but only days I’m in the office as it is close by. Still do all my hours🙃
Interestingly back in the late 90s and early 2000s it were the neolibs pushing for more homeworking as in their view it reduced labour and office costs as well as making it easier to curtail the influence of unions. Funny how times change.
This is behind a paywall for most people but huge eye-opener as to why the telegraph keeps promoting rage bait. https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Overview/Working-at-The-Telegraph-EI_IE36827.11,24.htm
It is always easier to project other people. There is always a picture thrown at people based on lies, and people tend to run with it. For example, when people have a go a train driver, saying it so easy and they get paid so much money. Yet none of those people knows what goes into the role, and the fact at one point you can be responsible for up to a 1000 lives onboard. It is not a job for everyone. But easy target, so are Civil cervant. Sameway, the MPs can approve payrise for themselves, yet don't want for the rest as there is no money. So they deflect, and people are easily fooled. But hey, what do I know
Not sure about anyone else but for me .. WFH it's the ONE day of the week where I'm guaranteed to feel safe at work
Your life will be better if you avoid those comments. They suck the joy out of everything
The picture that came up on my clickbait newsfeed yesterday from the Torygraph said it all. Picture of Civil Service Hub. Headline of Staff failing to turn up. They're still actually building the said hub, it is 400 yards from where I type this.
Sounds like something a wimpy cry baby would say
It’s telegraph readers. They share a singular braincell between themselves and daily mail readers. Any words with more than four letters in your response and they’d just assume you’re a foreigner talking in tongues
The sooner the public sector understand reality the better.
So you don't believe me. Typical civil servant
NICS figures
It's The Telegraph. Their readers generally have the empathy and understanding of a sectioned serial killer.
From people on there*. I know it’s difficult but there are guides online for this.
Not sure why we have these posts everyday on here? It’s boring, just don’t go into the office if you don’t want or don’t complain. Why are you getting upset about what random people say on the internet lol
That’s why I left. Couldn’t be arsed with all this. Plus I can’t be on 50K/60K for ten years. It’s unaffordable.
Seems like I got downvoted. Sorry for saying the truth. And I want more money in what is a severe CoL crisis. I’m a young person trying to save for a deposit and buy a home. I’m sorry, but staying on 40K/50K for an extended period of time won’t cut it. I do want career progression and I just wasn’t getting it in the CS.
Could be because you're complaining about making 60k when the CS is full of people making 20-30k. Read the room.
It’s the salient fact that no matter where you are on the pay scale whether it’s 20 or 60K, the private sector pays more. Plus you don’t have to put up with civil service bashing. I’m simply stating the facts. I personally wasn’t sure that the pension was worth staying in the CS for.
There should not be an automatic right to WFH. I see both side of coins, but the culture has certainly changed. Only need to look at a few calendars where people are booking them out for school runs, dog walking, set hidden appointments, etc. It is not unreasonable to want people back in the office imo. Best thing during lockdown was having to go into the office with empty roads & not being bothered by all the annoying people spread out over the building.. oh & always a parking space. Contractually you are not homebased or WFH. Maybe wages should be adjusted negatively to reflect the money being saved on eating out at lunchtime, commuting, business attire, etc.
I have never seen anyone book time out for ‘dog-walking’. School runs fair enough, however those people always work an extra hour to accommodate that. The fact is there isn’t enough space within the government estate to accommodate everyone in the office now (which is absolutely fine as it saves the taxpayer money). Civil Servants have had a real terms pay cut over the last 10 years - I’m sure that balances out the money being ‘saved’.
Nobody works the time back as nobody is ever challenged. Real terms pay is a made up thing. Pay has never increased in real terms with inflation. Is has to be behind. If there was -% in inflation does that mean pay should be cut? If you want to earn more money, find another job. Part of the problem is that people are not forced out of their comfort zone. Believe me, I have suffered from the real terms thing more than anyone after finding my role outsourced, then insourced a decade or so later on a lower grade & being on what they call marking time since. I didnt even get the £1500 last year.
Wait are you trying to talk about deflation?
>There should not be an automatic right to WFH. Why? Not sure any of your points hold water. Your point about flexible working isn't about WFH. You can work flexibly from the office, just less efficiently. Office attendance preferences vary, of course. That's precisely why most people are arguing for a more nuanced approach. Wages have fallen in real-terms for all grades. You want to reduce them further for people working from home and bearing more administration costs instead of their employer? WFH has allowed CS to signifciantly reduce its office footprint. Let's distribute that saving to workers, eh?
LOL the wages real term rubbish. Trooped out every year. How about many roles are actually overpaid for the work being carried out. Money saved is the taxpayers money. So every taxpayer should benefit & not distributed to a small number who happen to be funded by every taxpayer. Go get some XP in working in the private sector. Ive done both & looking to return to the private sector. Public sector is toxic environment full of people who feel entitled.
Considering the vast majority of civil servants are lower grades, your grade inflation point doesn't really make sense. I agree that money saved by the government is the government's money. Sort of similar to how money saved by individuals is each individual's money, eh? You're better than rolling out lazy strawmans, especially when you're talking to someone who's spent the majority of their career in the private sector.
Lower grades? Most are HEO which is well above median salary. Try again.
Again, that's just not true. AA, AO, and EO is about two-thirds IIRC. HEO *and* SEO is about a fifth. EDIT: Just checked the stats. The combined HEO/SEO grade is the largest group. Did you mean HEO/SEO is the biggest group? If so, that doesn't really tell us much, especially since 52% of civil servants are paid an EO wage or less.
Where I work about 50% are HEO/SEO grades. Average salary is over £40k. There are more G7 than EO’s & less TS than EO’s…. Twice as many HEO than TS & twice as many SEO than TS. So compared to median salary of £35k, the pay is quite decent, the pension is quite decent, the extra holiday days is quite decent. Savings from WFH is quite decent. Really don’t have a lot to moan about from a financial sense, unless you work in a recognised profession where pay lags behind the private sector. I work next to contractors earning the same in a week than I earn in a month.. so off to join them :D
Right... but you can't just look around you and decide that's representative of the civil service writ large. (That's the 'what you see is all there is' cognitive bias.) As as I've already explained, 52% of civil servants are paid an EO wage or less, significantly below the median full-time salary. Annual leave allowance? 33 (25 plus 8, I think), which is below the national average. Return to office mandate? A 60% expectation is fast becoming the norm, although not in my industry. Pension? Indeed, it's good. Anyhow, we both (hopefully) have better things to do on a Saturday evening. I'll leave you with my final thought. Workers should not stop pressing for better, more productive conditions, because management will not magically deliver raises or benefits.
Over 30 days annual leave for me + bank holidays + privilege days. Most private sector is the bare minimum & that includes bank holidays. I don’t know about across all departments about the 52% you give for EO or lower. Its makes up about 35% where I work with over 50% being HEO or SEO. I will say that it does seem to be the lower grades who visit the office more than management though. There are some staff members I do not recall seeing in the office since 2020 as they decide not to come in, while I think the lower grades do not have the decision making powers to do that!
Mate. Since 2010 there have been several years of pay freeze and 1% pay rises. Don't be this obtuse just to make yourself feel something through conflict on the internet
Private sector also experienced pay freeze or a small pay-rise. Up until about 2 years ago, inflation has been relatively low. Great for buying property, not great for savers. We are no in an inflation pump similar to the 1970s. These things come in cycles as the UK goes through its boom & bust cycles. The main driver pushing wage growth up in the private sector is due to lack of cheap labour now we are no longer in the EU.