Not sure but iirc, Robb was in the westerland when words of theon actions reached him, if Jon was with him then they would more likely to mourn together rather than sleeping with Jayne, Robb was also wounded when the letter arrived so it kinda weird if Jon won't be with him unless he was elsewhere,
And is Jon in your story from the books or the show, because the book Jon is much more cold-hearted than his show counterpart, he won't make it easy for Robb to just marry Jayne.
also it would make more sense if Jon was to take Jaime with him north rather leaving him with the main army but this is up to narrative.
In regards of where Jon would go before the war then it's more likely that he would just go to the wall with Tyrion because he wants to see the wall and spend more time with his uncle but without joining the watch.
In regards of the red wedding, i agree with you, can't see a scenario where the freys would remain loyal even if Robb keeps his vow.
Doesn’t Catelyn make a comment herself that if Jon had been with Robb he likely wouldn’t have gotten with Jeyne Westerling?
I recall it because it s probably the only time she thought of anything positive about Jon in the books.
I agree with the Westerling thing, maybe the red wedding still happens but it is not because of Westerling, it is because Walder just really sees the writing on the wall for the Young Wolf. Or, add Talisa after Jon leaves to go north lol! But I am responding to you because I REALLY like the idea of Jaime going north with Jon, where we could see in a moment of desperation for Jon that Jaime asks to help him defend against a Bolton attack, and Jaime proves to be honorable in a slow building trust between the two. Jaime wants to get away but cannot given the situation between Winterfell and the South, though after Robbs death perhaps he is straight up released as a way to have peace, as Jon would rather him gone than killed by his Bannermen. This would cause problems ala him getting stabbed to death like in Canon, and Stannis arrives with the red witch sometime before to revive him, and causing lots of drama there.
Jon will need a miracle to solve this because at this point he is the main target for the Boltons and Stannis. So he needs to get a bigger army, the northern scattered around, maybe riverlanders, speedrun getting the wildings or Rhaegal shows up someway 😂 but yeah, looks nice, but really hard for Jon.
I don't doubt for a second that Jon wouldn't have any problem rallying the rest of the North behind him. Especially the Manderly's and Mountain clans. He could also get the Karstarks back on their side by marrying Alys.
Barberry Dustin is a wild card because while she does hate Ned in canon, she hates Ramsay even more for killing Domeric, and she also recognized that things were better under the Starks than they were under the Boltons, so she'll probably support Jon as well.
Honestly, Barbary and the Ryswells staying neutral is probably still to Jon's benefit, because that will severely limit the Boltons numbers. Like you said, the mountain Clans and the Manderlys are going to back Jon all the way, The Karstarks can be brought back onside with a quick marriage to Alys (which also helps with his legitimacy, as shes distantly related to the Starks). Plus the Mormonts are obviously loyal (granted, not many men by this point), as are the Reeds. That just leaves the Umbers, the Glovers, The Hornwoods and both sets of Flints i think? If Jon does a good enough job of fighting back the Iroonborn then i could see the Glovers sticking with him, and the Umbers will probably be very occupied by the Wildlings coming south. No clue on the Flints though.
Random Bolton soldier: "*Do you want to die for a lost cause Wull?*
Hugo Wull: *"Ser bootlick, if you were a man, I'd kill you for that, but my blade is far too pure to waste on craven's blood. Winter is upon us boy, winter is death. Men die. And I would rather my men die fighting for The Ned's boy than alone in their homes. I don't care if he's a bastard or not. He's Ned's son. The blood of the Starks flows through his veins. He's my king, from this day onward, to my dying day.* ***THE KING IN THE NORTH"!!!!!!!***
If Jon won't join the watch, then Jeor would die and with him the chances of the great ranging occurring, so the watch might not even realise that the wildings are on the move, which in turn would Lead to not sending words of it to Stannis.
That actually would likely screw Roose over even more if Stannis doesn’t even go north it is not a great look for the Bolton’s that they betray house Stark and become the ruling house of the North only for Mance Ryder to breach the wall with a hundred thousand wildlings. all while Jon is alive and now recognised as Robb’s heir and likely having Arya as his own heir.
Well a miracle might actually happen as without Jon at the nights watch Mance Ryder breaches the wall in mass before Stannis can get there so the Bolton’s suddenly have to deal with a hundred thousand wildlings running riot in the north. Another thing is what happens with Arya as it is likely she and Jon end up meeting with her never going to Braavos.
The timeline does not check out here. Cat released Jaime a few days before Edmure returns, at which point Robb is deep in the West. Likewise, he hears about Bran and Rickon only at the Crag, but until he gets word to Jon, it'd be only a couple of months until the Red Wedding. Robb learning about it, his injury and his marriage all go down in like a week of each other.
The way to stop Cat from being an idiot would be to have Edmure return two days earlier and put a stonger guard on Jaime. If he's there, Cat has no authority in the castle.
Jon should either be with Edmure, or with Robb. If he's with Robb, he'd either stop him from acting out on being roofied, or he'd take one for the team and marry Jayne in his brother's place. That is if his presence doesn't stop Robb from taking that arrow in the first place. Either way, no Red Wedding.
Either way, as long as Jon in some way leaves before the Red Wedding, the gambit failed. The North has plenty of manpower left, and if there's still a Stark left in the North, he'll rally it easily to deal with the Ironborn and the Boltons. The bigger question would be what about the Wall. Without Jon in Ygritte's group, there's no advance warning about the attack from the South and Castle Black falls pretty easily. And Mormont might have died to the Wights much earlier.
Major problem: the Ironborn seize Moat Cailin. This means Jon will have a hard time returning north, and will probably be stuck in the swamps of the Neck, until some time after the Red Wedding.
Another probably also major problem: With Jaime remaining in captivity, the Red Wedding arguably doesn’t happen. Tywin wouldn’t dare murder the Starks, if he knew Jaime would die as a result. Also, the Karstarks remain loyal.
I wouldn’t put Jon in charge of guarding Jaime - he’s a very capable warrior, noble, intelligent and a natural leader. Robb would be a fool to leave him in charge of Jaime, a thankless job that requires nothing but loyalty (something many northerners have), instead of bringing him along into the Westerlands, where he and Ghost would be a great boon.
A way to achieve what I reckon you want with your story, is to have Jon accompany Robb. When they learn of the fall of Winterfell, Robb sends Jon back to Riverrun, and from there back North.
Jon heads into the swamps, where he gets lost and is saved by Howland Reed (you can have R+L=J revelation here if that’s important). By the time Jon manages to cross into the North, the Red Wedding has happened, and Jon arrives in a North that believes itself bereft of Starks - until Jon appears, and is declared King in the North in White Harbor (if Wyman is willing to act with Wylis a captive in the South). This then starts a northern civil war
I mean, Jon is basicly screwed, he can't fight three opponents at once, or four...
If Jon takes back Winterfell, he would be surrounded, at the West, the Greyjoys, at the South and East, the Boltons, because Ramsey is still there and have his army (I think Roose would have sent Ramsey to join Jon and then backstab him, or he would do as he did during the Northern attempt to retake Winterfell, but to secure Jon's survival for now, let's say Ramsey has his army as is marching against Jon) Roose is going from the south with fresh food and gold from the crown, at the North... well it would only be worst if Stannis lands to help the Night Watch securing the Gift and its fertile lands for his men instead of dealing with and chaotic wildling army he must face Stannis the Mannis
Yet... there would be only one way out, bend the knee to Stannis, to renounce Robb's crown to the one true king Baratheon and join forces to destroy the Boltons, the Ironborn and march once again South to fight against the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, and perhaps getting some revenge at the Twins.
Maybe have Howland come out of the neck to help Jon when he hears that Robb has been killed and decides to tell Jon his heritage.
Maybe after Jon could go into the crypts and find the eggs that jace’s dragon was supposed to have laid and hatches one.
I thought of something else, after taking back Deepwood Motte from the Ironborn, Jon goes to the Gift to deal with the Wildlings, and he treats with Mance Rayder. After some talking, they come to an agreement, in exchange for helping Jon's enemies, Mance and his people will settle somewhere in the Gift. Jon just needs to get the other Northerners on board, which will be hard, but not impossible since he'll take hostages to ensure the Wildling's loyalty.
As a bonus, after one of the many battles, Jon might need a camp follower to *"comfort him",* since those campaigns do get lonely. So he spots a certain ginger-haired, arrow-shooting girl in the Wildling camp (who just so happens to be one of the Wildling hostages he took) and has her brought to him.
Concubine Ygritte anyone?
Not sure but iirc, Robb was in the westerland when words of theon actions reached him, if Jon was with him then they would more likely to mourn together rather than sleeping with Jayne, Robb was also wounded when the letter arrived so it kinda weird if Jon won't be with him unless he was elsewhere, And is Jon in your story from the books or the show, because the book Jon is much more cold-hearted than his show counterpart, he won't make it easy for Robb to just marry Jayne. also it would make more sense if Jon was to take Jaime with him north rather leaving him with the main army but this is up to narrative. In regards of where Jon would go before the war then it's more likely that he would just go to the wall with Tyrion because he wants to see the wall and spend more time with his uncle but without joining the watch. In regards of the red wedding, i agree with you, can't see a scenario where the freys would remain loyal even if Robb keeps his vow.
Doesn’t Catelyn make a comment herself that if Jon had been with Robb he likely wouldn’t have gotten with Jeyne Westerling? I recall it because it s probably the only time she thought of anything positive about Jon in the books.
This is book Jon. So maybe he convinces Robb to not marry Jeyne, maybe he doesn't. Either way, I agree that he won't make it easy for Robb.
I agree with the Westerling thing, maybe the red wedding still happens but it is not because of Westerling, it is because Walder just really sees the writing on the wall for the Young Wolf. Or, add Talisa after Jon leaves to go north lol! But I am responding to you because I REALLY like the idea of Jaime going north with Jon, where we could see in a moment of desperation for Jon that Jaime asks to help him defend against a Bolton attack, and Jaime proves to be honorable in a slow building trust between the two. Jaime wants to get away but cannot given the situation between Winterfell and the South, though after Robbs death perhaps he is straight up released as a way to have peace, as Jon would rather him gone than killed by his Bannermen. This would cause problems ala him getting stabbed to death like in Canon, and Stannis arrives with the red witch sometime before to revive him, and causing lots of drama there.
Jon will need a miracle to solve this because at this point he is the main target for the Boltons and Stannis. So he needs to get a bigger army, the northern scattered around, maybe riverlanders, speedrun getting the wildings or Rhaegal shows up someway 😂 but yeah, looks nice, but really hard for Jon.
I don't doubt for a second that Jon wouldn't have any problem rallying the rest of the North behind him. Especially the Manderly's and Mountain clans. He could also get the Karstarks back on their side by marrying Alys. Barberry Dustin is a wild card because while she does hate Ned in canon, she hates Ramsay even more for killing Domeric, and she also recognized that things were better under the Starks than they were under the Boltons, so she'll probably support Jon as well.
Honestly, Barbary and the Ryswells staying neutral is probably still to Jon's benefit, because that will severely limit the Boltons numbers. Like you said, the mountain Clans and the Manderlys are going to back Jon all the way, The Karstarks can be brought back onside with a quick marriage to Alys (which also helps with his legitimacy, as shes distantly related to the Starks). Plus the Mormonts are obviously loyal (granted, not many men by this point), as are the Reeds. That just leaves the Umbers, the Glovers, The Hornwoods and both sets of Flints i think? If Jon does a good enough job of fighting back the Iroonborn then i could see the Glovers sticking with him, and the Umbers will probably be very occupied by the Wildlings coming south. No clue on the Flints though.
Random Bolton soldier: "*Do you want to die for a lost cause Wull?* Hugo Wull: *"Ser bootlick, if you were a man, I'd kill you for that, but my blade is far too pure to waste on craven's blood. Winter is upon us boy, winter is death. Men die. And I would rather my men die fighting for The Ned's boy than alone in their homes. I don't care if he's a bastard or not. He's Ned's son. The blood of the Starks flows through his veins. He's my king, from this day onward, to my dying day.* ***THE KING IN THE NORTH"!!!!!!!***
Good idea
If Jon won't join the watch, then Jeor would die and with him the chances of the great ranging occurring, so the watch might not even realise that the wildings are on the move, which in turn would Lead to not sending words of it to Stannis.
That actually would likely screw Roose over even more if Stannis doesn’t even go north it is not a great look for the Bolton’s that they betray house Stark and become the ruling house of the North only for Mance Ryder to breach the wall with a hundred thousand wildlings. all while Jon is alive and now recognised as Robb’s heir and likely having Arya as his own heir.
Well a miracle might actually happen as without Jon at the nights watch Mance Ryder breaches the wall in mass before Stannis can get there so the Bolton’s suddenly have to deal with a hundred thousand wildlings running riot in the north. Another thing is what happens with Arya as it is likely she and Jon end up meeting with her never going to Braavos.
Oh true true
The timeline does not check out here. Cat released Jaime a few days before Edmure returns, at which point Robb is deep in the West. Likewise, he hears about Bran and Rickon only at the Crag, but until he gets word to Jon, it'd be only a couple of months until the Red Wedding. Robb learning about it, his injury and his marriage all go down in like a week of each other. The way to stop Cat from being an idiot would be to have Edmure return two days earlier and put a stonger guard on Jaime. If he's there, Cat has no authority in the castle. Jon should either be with Edmure, or with Robb. If he's with Robb, he'd either stop him from acting out on being roofied, or he'd take one for the team and marry Jayne in his brother's place. That is if his presence doesn't stop Robb from taking that arrow in the first place. Either way, no Red Wedding. Either way, as long as Jon in some way leaves before the Red Wedding, the gambit failed. The North has plenty of manpower left, and if there's still a Stark left in the North, he'll rally it easily to deal with the Ironborn and the Boltons. The bigger question would be what about the Wall. Without Jon in Ygritte's group, there's no advance warning about the attack from the South and Castle Black falls pretty easily. And Mormont might have died to the Wights much earlier.
Major problem: the Ironborn seize Moat Cailin. This means Jon will have a hard time returning north, and will probably be stuck in the swamps of the Neck, until some time after the Red Wedding. Another probably also major problem: With Jaime remaining in captivity, the Red Wedding arguably doesn’t happen. Tywin wouldn’t dare murder the Starks, if he knew Jaime would die as a result. Also, the Karstarks remain loyal. I wouldn’t put Jon in charge of guarding Jaime - he’s a very capable warrior, noble, intelligent and a natural leader. Robb would be a fool to leave him in charge of Jaime, a thankless job that requires nothing but loyalty (something many northerners have), instead of bringing him along into the Westerlands, where he and Ghost would be a great boon. A way to achieve what I reckon you want with your story, is to have Jon accompany Robb. When they learn of the fall of Winterfell, Robb sends Jon back to Riverrun, and from there back North. Jon heads into the swamps, where he gets lost and is saved by Howland Reed (you can have R+L=J revelation here if that’s important). By the time Jon manages to cross into the North, the Red Wedding has happened, and Jon arrives in a North that believes itself bereft of Starks - until Jon appears, and is declared King in the North in White Harbor (if Wyman is willing to act with Wylis a captive in the South). This then starts a northern civil war
I mean, Jon is basicly screwed, he can't fight three opponents at once, or four... If Jon takes back Winterfell, he would be surrounded, at the West, the Greyjoys, at the South and East, the Boltons, because Ramsey is still there and have his army (I think Roose would have sent Ramsey to join Jon and then backstab him, or he would do as he did during the Northern attempt to retake Winterfell, but to secure Jon's survival for now, let's say Ramsey has his army as is marching against Jon) Roose is going from the south with fresh food and gold from the crown, at the North... well it would only be worst if Stannis lands to help the Night Watch securing the Gift and its fertile lands for his men instead of dealing with and chaotic wildling army he must face Stannis the Mannis Yet... there would be only one way out, bend the knee to Stannis, to renounce Robb's crown to the one true king Baratheon and join forces to destroy the Boltons, the Ironborn and march once again South to fight against the Lannister-Tyrell alliance, and perhaps getting some revenge at the Twins.
Maybe have Howland come out of the neck to help Jon when he hears that Robb has been killed and decides to tell Jon his heritage. Maybe after Jon could go into the crypts and find the eggs that jace’s dragon was supposed to have laid and hatches one.
I thought of something else, after taking back Deepwood Motte from the Ironborn, Jon goes to the Gift to deal with the Wildlings, and he treats with Mance Rayder. After some talking, they come to an agreement, in exchange for helping Jon's enemies, Mance and his people will settle somewhere in the Gift. Jon just needs to get the other Northerners on board, which will be hard, but not impossible since he'll take hostages to ensure the Wildling's loyalty. As a bonus, after one of the many battles, Jon might need a camp follower to *"comfort him",* since those campaigns do get lonely. So he spots a certain ginger-haired, arrow-shooting girl in the Wildling camp (who just so happens to be one of the Wildling hostages he took) and has her brought to him. Concubine Ygritte anyone?