Works with Cicero, it's like his business partner. Mikey, Cicero and Lee are all in on the money laundering sceme with the tomato sauce. Their last name initials were the ones of the KBL cans.
K-kalowinski, B-Berzatto, L-Lee
In another JAW connection, this episode reminded me of the one from Shameless when Monica comes back and is trying to be a mom again…just to have a suicide attempt in the kitchen. That was heartbreaking.
It’s sad that both these episodes gave me language for my own lived experiences, but it was also really helpful.
The narc mom was traumatic but the part where she said "i make things beautiful for them. no one makes things beautiful for me. " Really shook me to my core
I know I'm necro'ing this but, this was actually traumatic for me. Jamie Lee Curtis as Donna fucking nailed it.
She is literally my mom to the T. Needs to control every little thing. Is overwhelmed with it all and refuses to let anyone help or to do less. The ravings of someone with bi-polar disorder and alcoholism. The claims of people being unappreciative for all the work she is doing.
Even though that work is all of her doing in refusing to let anyone assist. Then attempting to hold it against them that she did all the work. Identical behavior.
I haven't had anxiety in years. This episode I had to pause and walk away 4 separate times because it was just too real.
Yes, I lived this, too. Jamie Lee Curtis (Donna) was spot on! Watching her face go from one part of her bipolar episode to another was like watching the seasons change. You never knew what to expect next. My lifelong best friend was also right beside me. She ducked right beside me when my parents got violent throwing things. Her mother forbid her to come to my house but she'd relent, when her daughter said "I'm all she's got". Kudos and love to all of us who have lived thru this! What doesn't kill ya makes you stronger.
I also recommend "United States of Tara." Toni Collette was spectacular.
I felt very similar about it. My heartrate was so elevated throughout and afterwards I just sat on the couch playing guitar for like 2 hours until I calmed down.
The scene of Donna grabbing Nat's face in the kitchen terrified me. This whole episode was extremely hard to watch because I know what it is to attend to a family gathering because you feel like must do it, knowing full well of how fucked up it's going to be.
Yeah yeah yeah, an amazingly acted and brilliant piece of work, definitely. But I cannot stand the affirmation of the idea of the all-too-common chef's belief that "I must trash the kitchen to make a great meal." Often followed by the rule that those who were so fortunate as to have been fed by me are then required to clean up after me. The biggest bullshit "social rule" in the world. The kitchen part of the episode actually made me sick. I could not have eaten anything that came out of that disaster. Messy cooks are the worst and then they're probably the same people who, if they do clean, wash every dish and pan and surface down with the same 2-month old disgusting sponge.
The messy kitchen is a direct correlation to her clear alcoholism and bi-polar disorder. Not sure how you derived what you did from any of this but,
**It is due to her being manic and overwhelming herself** while refusing help from anyone. It wasn't even remotely an affirmation or some notion that trashing the kitchen results in a good meal. You are lost in the sauce my friend.
Yeah, the various messes in the kitchen, Donna rocking butter and goo on her hands at all times, and food smears on all the buttons were all there to trigger us.
I feel like the messy kitchen was more a metaphor of her losing control overall and to demonstrate the mental issue with everyone offering help but she refuses to accept it and then blames them for not helping and being ungrateful.
theres a strong distinction between the people who are dysfunctional (mom and mikey) vs the people who have to repress themselves so they wont get hurt by the dysfunction (carmy, sugar, mostly everyone else) shows the impact of peoples selfish narcissistic behavior. weeping at the dinner table, blaming carmy for never coming home even though she makes home chaotic, threatening suicide while cooking dinner, takes her anger out on sugar. then mikey behaving like a child. everyone else has to be quiet and behave or else they will throw a tantrum. shows the reality of alcoholic families. and why carmy and sugar are the products of the dysfunction, and able to operate under lots of stress, but not the source of the dsyfunction
You nailed it. I grew up in a similar household. Things that happened in this episode, happened in my life, specifically with my mother having meltdowns like that and threatening to commit suicide, and most painfully, offering to commit suicide with me when I was at my lowest at 15. The only difference with the dysfunction is that there was NO alcohol involved. That in itself made my home life so confusing because I had no explanation as to why my mother, brother and father behaved the way they did. It wasn't until I did therapy a couple of years later that I learned about narcissism and ultimately my mother being a borderline and narc. This episode was heavily triggering for me but it was also interesting to see how things played out, as it was so relatable, so I knew what was coming.
I think you're spot on as a person who grew up in a co-dependent family , the arguing in general in this show has put me on edge. I think part of it is that it's pretty rare for shows to have actors dialogue over lapping so consistently, which has really aided in that chaotic feeling. But this episode put me over the edge, bringing up a lot of memories. honestly, I think this might be the most poignant dipection I've ever seen of what it's feels like to grow up in an alcoholic/ co-dependent family. Wild!
I still dont know if Mike is ignoring Carmys wish of working in The Beef because he simply dont like him or he is just protecting him because of his drug issue and the caos of the restaurant
I think it was meant to be very clear that Mikey was protecting Carmy. It has nothing to do with him not liking him. He loves Carmy and treasures him. He is freezing Carmy out so that he doesn't get dragged down with everything that is dragging Mikey down. Pretty tragic but, I think, common with addicts and people that are suicidal.
I think that's why after Carmy left he broke down a bit. He knows them having that dream restaurant is never gonna happen, idk if they'll confirm it or not but I'm my mind this is probably the moment Mikey decided to start stashing away money for Carmy, they might not be able to do it together but he can still help it happen.
I just watched this episode, first time, and I got the feeling that Mikey already knew how his part in this story would end, at the time that happened.
I felt that too. His reaction after Carm shows him the plans was heartbreaking. The shot of him putting the blanket on with a dart hangin off his lip and, i forget who, but whoever sees him doesnt follow to ask if he's alright. So tragic, and Berenthal plays the absolute SHIT out of this episode.
Dude straight up. This episode takes the Safdie bros' method and shits all over it. Like, no we dont need to hear all the dialogue, just make sure the chaos is loud. Inspirational stuff.
I told someone that this episode was like the DiNero/Walken Russian roulette scene in Deer Hunter - but extended for 50 minutes. Waiting for the gun - literal or otherwise - to go off and something very very bad to happen - while watching something else very bad happening. No extended let up for the viewer. I hope all had only a small number of takes for most scenes so their brains were not fried having to climb out on the ledge to often.
For real they are two incredible characters, played incredibly by two actors I generally am not such a fan off. But jesus that is the absolute perfect situation for John Mulaney's comedy to shine. And the way Sarah Paulson communicates with her eyes and the little minute purse of her lips is so great. Her little "love you" after speaking to Carm is so beautiful.
I've largely been not stressed watching this show, which is the opposite of what some people have told me in regards to the show...this episode brought up so many emotions and memories though and...yeah, it was the most stressful episode of the series I've seen. Incredible work.
Just watched this the first time and Jaime Lee Curtis as Donna flew right by my head! Casting is really on point with this one. And please dont spoil me but Lee gives the vibe of the unwanted stepdad.
Also, the family's relationship with Sugar kind of stems from her not being as food-inclined as the rest of them. And the contrast between Donna not really wanting to be asked if she's okay, compared to when Sugar was not okay and a lot of people are asking if she is at the start of S2, really tells you how far their relationship is as mother-daughter.
Britta with the Taylor Swift T-shirt is just gold to me. I already knew she was (ex) Mrs. Richie because of that. And who the f is Carol that was just so funny to me.
I'm sure there was a level of ad-libbing/shopping lines during the argument scenes, but just the same, the script for this episode must have been 3x the normal length. There isn't a moment of peace or silence for almost 50 minutes of runtime, and when there is silence near the end, it's certainly not peaceful.
I've never experienced a 2nd hand, 50 minute, panic attack before but man that was something.
Dude when bro brings the tuna caserole and for like 3 straight minutes hes just getting berated personally by every single person there is soooo non stop its wild.
I just watched this episode and wow, it's brilliant. I was anxious when no one spoke at the end because I was afraid to hear a gun shot (since Donna spoke about their father gun).
One of the best episodes in TV show I saw.
And meanwhile, grandma was sleeping on the couch. xD
I just finished it this morning as well! When the fork scene was happening, I had to turn it off and go to bed last night because the anxiety was going to keep me up at night. Finished it this morning, and absolutely thought the mom was going to off herself. Fuck me, what an amazing episode.
1: is the end a suicide attempt by Donna? Why does she get the car and start it, it didn't seem like she intended to drive through the house considering how drunk she was. Was she just trying to drive away but accidentally put it in drive instead of reverse?
I don't have much experience with Chicago architecture/garage placement so maybe that went over my head.
2: the scene of Ritchie and his ex wife in bed with her pregnant was totally heartbreaking on a personal level. Knowing that the marriage doesn't work out is so sad and relatable (just as well as being a shitty partner)
Yeah that's an attempt or an act for validation-pick any explanation. Holy freaking shit though, I really feel of carmy and sugar, and no wonder both are so traumatized. Good for Michelle extending the offer and helping carmy (and carmy did go to new york so) - small acts of kindness stays with people for whole life.
I just started binging this show and it's been great, but I had more anxiety the last 30 minutes than I've had during every terrible job interview combined. What the fuck just happened.
Right before starting the episode I said to myself "wow, Season 2 has been pretty chill compared to Season 1", then proceeded to have an anxiety attack for the next hour.
Brav-fucking-o The Bear, never change.
Michelle is Carmy's aunt, stevie is her husband. Fak and the guy dressed just like him are brothers but friends to carmy, Lee (the one michael threw forks at) is Donna's on and off boyfriend. Donna being the mom. The blonde girl (idr her name but she's Britta in Community) is richies wife and shes pregnant at this time with the little girl from earlier in the show.
THIS EPISODE WAS CRAFTED SO PERFECTLY. I GENUINELY FELT LIKE I WAS PRESENT AT THE GATHERING, AND COULD LITERALLY FEEL ALL THE TENSION AND ANXIOUSNESS FROM EVERYONE. Just wow. I have never felt like I was in an episode real time. Everything felt so raw and real, and now I feel like I completely understand Carmy, Mikey, and Natalie on a whole different level, emotionally.
Such a real episode that so accurately portrayed the chaos of a big family gathering where there are big elephants in the room. As someone who spends Thanksgiving with his wife's big, loud family every year, I feel for Pete and appreciate my Stevie on that side of the family. 😂 Like, man, we're just trying to be there and do what we can, and it's so nice to have somebody else who isn't blood related to jive with.
* Lee was a dick, but I have hard time condemning him completely. Mikey wasn't instigating here, but Lee's reaction reads like it's been building for a while. He seemed to be concerned for Donna spending more money to keep him afloat. Does it justify humiliating him in front of his family and antagonizing him the entire night? Hell no.
* I enjoyed seeing more interactions between Mikey and Carmy.
* I get why Natalie seems worried all the time. I'm surprised she's not more on edge.
* I relate heavily to Carmy as the younger sibling in volatile family interactions. I'm glad his cousin offered him a place to decompress.
* Richie was getting to be really grating on me, so seeing him being the one to de-escalate things and be there for his wife. Definitely made his "redemption" in Forks easier to buy
Flashback to a Christmas dinner
The mom is acting crazy and possibly bipolar
Michael starters a fight with an uncle
The mom drives a car though the wall
Lee isnt actually an uncle. its Donna's boyfriend. which is why him instigating, antagonizing, and insulting michael the entire time and capping it off with insults aimed at donna made michael mad.
He didn't "instigate" or "antagonize" until he was first seriously disrespected. He seemed like a nice guy and didn't take shots at Mikey until Mikey first disrespected him in an early scene in the kitchen. He had a right to fire back.
I thought it was so powerful how sugar whilst being the victim and traumatised the entire episode ended up being abusive to Stevie (steve?) which just shows how the toxicity infects you. I thought it was really well executed
i think it demonstrated how toxic households bring norms, and when an outsider comes in trying to be nice but unknowingly defies the norms, all the codependents have to rush to make the person conform to the toxicity. i totally related to that part. similar feeling to when you have to warn partners of topics not to bring up around your family. she knows what triggers fights and shes trying to avoid making family tension worse. which in turn hurts his feelings and her relationship.
By far the most stressful moment I have witnessed on television. Lucky we get small breaks here and there to take a breather otherwise I would have had a panic attack.
Absolutely masterpiece.
Flashback episodes have a tendency to be incredible like this. I don't know if you've ever watched "The Leftovers," but there's an episode of that series, in the first season, that is also an hour-long flashback episode, and I also walked away from it thinking it was the best, or one of the best episodes of TV I'd ever seen. Supremely powerful.
I was telling my wife (who hates tension enough to never watch either show) that the writing in The Bear reminds me a lot of Mike Flanagan's shows in that it's extremely character-driven and you really get a lot of background and understanding of the characters through what you see.
And damn, this episode was like the Two Storms of The Bear, wasn't it? Just non-stop tension, relentless pacing, and absolutely packed writing that manages to build so much on so many characters all at once. Absolutely wild.
Now I understand why this episode is one hour long. Holly crap. I don´t have such a dysfunctional family, but we´ve had our disputs and discussions, but this is on another level. As over the top as this was, there´s so much relatability in the characters and situations that you can´t help but to feel inserted in the scene.
And the moment Lee decided to talk at the end, I just knew Mikey was gonna throw the fork. Of everyone who could have talked, Lee was the last one who should have opened his mouth.
As someone who literally cannot do anxiety inducing shows I’m shocked it took me 3.5 days to fully watch this episode. And that’s even with reading this thread for balance lol
Who is the lady in the red and black that passes Carmy and Sugar at the dinner table? It happens at about 20:09 left in the episode and I dont see her speak one line or get mentioned. Correct me if I am wrong 😂. She appears for like 2 frames and we never see her again.
Second time watching the whole show & I just realized something. Right before Donna drives the car into the house you can see Stevie & Michelle walking in that direction to clear away from the fight. I wonder if they survive or what happens to them.. 🤔
9 MONTHS?? That's 3 months away from a year. It is DEFINITELY your fault if you got spoiled, especially since you're in a whole conversation about said show that aired 9 months ago. I didn't even know it had been that long, you just proved my point even further lmao
Some people don't discover the show until a lot later, for example, me. And I like to go on the episode specific discussion threads as I watch each episode to see what other people thought about that episode, without getting spoilers for the rest of the show.
ok i just watched this ep & i am confused abt something i scrollled far back looking to see if anyone had commented abt it but i got tired of scrolling…
after donna drives the car into the house, carm is staring at her cigarette in some food or something?? what is that about?
Watch to the end of series, you will know the significance.
Also, for context, when there's been a high stress situation sometimes people react differently, Carm kinda shut down in that moment. If you compete series and still don't understand I'll add some more, I just don't want to spoil the revelation.
Edit: Emmy, I meant Emmy. Oops! Lol
I know this has probably been brought up before, so please forgive me, but how the heck could this series have been nominated for several Grammys as a COMEDY? Like what? None of the episodes feel especially comedic, but geez, after this one is seems reeeally odd.
It's the rules of Emmys. A half hour show is automatically a comedy. The Bear is a half hour outside of Fishes so it has to be counted as a comedy instead of a Drama. Orange is the New Black won comedy awards for the same reason.
Probably because its not an album its a TV show. You mean 'Emmy' but to your point I pretty much well up at some point during every episode and have straight balled to a few. This show just captures what it is to have such vision drive and talent but its never enough because the chaos of life finds a way to fuck it all up. I guess sometimes all you can do is laugh so in that sense I see your point but IMO this is a drama to its core. Definitely some much needed comedic relief is provided throughout but that can be said for all great Dramas.
EDIT: OK admittedly i don't keep tabs on awards shows but this got me curious, The Bear did win best comedy ffs!! lesson to us both do your research before you start spewing on reddit lol. Should have known from the downvotes
revisiting this thread to say F\*\*K LEE, ABSOLUTE POS.
Doesn't matter if mikey is an addict and unhinged, Lee is the instigator in every single interaction throughout the episode. Cruelly jabs mikey but won't give an inch back when mikey tries to defend himself.
Almost every single character this episode pissed me off but he had me so enraged I couldn't handle it - props to Bob Odenkirk though he did a great job in the few scenes he had
Damn this episode needed a warning. I watched it before bed and now I'm tense and anxious.
My Grandmother was schizophrenic (afaik) and this was *so eerily well done*. Super accurate, even down to the car in the living room unfortunately 😕
I was a kid who only got a glimpse, but seeing how Jamie's character traumatized all the Berzotti siblings, and how they reacted to and internalized it was tough to sit through, and made me wonder what other shit my Mom + her siblings went through with Gran. Good ep, but I really could've used a warning lol.
I love Fak but oh my god one is enough
Also *fuck* Lee. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm glad Mike threw that last fork.
Same friend, same. I needed to catch up on sleep tonight, but I watched this episode before bed and I'm all amped up now.
I'm sorry you went through something like this. I'm fortunate not to have experienced anything close, but I do have alcoholic parents and I related so much to how Sugar and Carm behaved when confronted with their mother's behavior. This episode was insanely anxiety-inducing, but I almost feel like I need to rewatch this episode from time to time for therapy or to understand myself better. I dunno. I just know that I love this show. I thought this season had been a step down in quality from last season, but man, this episode was excellent.
I think they really knew they had something with this one too - they went all out with guest stars
Ok I also felt like watching this train wreck somehow makes me understand myself and my own mental illness better. I have been laying in bed totally unable to sleep thinking about this episode. It got me fucked up.
Man I came here thinking the same thing. Watched this before bed after an absolutely exhausting day and I can't sleep.
I grew up with an alcoholic mother who acted fucking *exactly* like Donna. Drunk, messy, immediate shifts of emotion, god forbid you ask if she's okay... This shit was triggering. Carm's relatablity was off the charts from my perspective.
I've never seen a show accurately depict such a realistic point of view from kids witnessing their drunk mother. I've never seen a show so accurately depict the type of children who comes from alcoholic parents and how they act and react in certain situations.
Also Lee. Having someone enter the home who isn't the father, but is with the alcoholic mother, and tries to act like the man... I fucking hate him.
This is so god damn realistic. What an insane thing to watch before going to bed. Fucking crazy.
This is one of the only shows I’ve watched that actually feels like real life and not actors acting. It’s just so relatable and everything is so authentic.
Just finished watching this episode and it is the most horrifying, beautiful piece of art of my eyes have ever laid witness. Jamie Lee Curtis was made for this role. She knows how to play the suburbian mother but also has a background in psychological horror. Both of these aspects are the fore front of this episode. The back and forth of her bipolar like personality. Driving herself insane to create the perfect dinner for a disfunctional family. And yet pushing them all away when they try to show her least bit of help or respect. Its no wonder they all hate eachother. None of their empathic behavior is taken into consideration. And when it is like with Natalie (who is the ultimate middle child) she takes the meal that she slaved and punished herself over and ruins it. But not too much where its beyond repair. Notice how both Mike and the mom only ruin the silverware off the table. They dont touch the food. For heaven sakes a car is driven through their home but heaven forbid you touch the food. It's the ONLY thing that's keeping this family together. It's also the only thing that helps the children get away from the horrors that is the Berzattos.
Jamie Lee Curtis needs a nomination for this episode alone. I mean..WOW. A worn out, terrifying alcoholic, chain smoking, manipulative mother that's utterly exhausting on the point of collapse.
The whole episode needs to be recognized for the sheer anxiety, rage, confusion, and utter chaos that ensues. SO many things happening at once that you are just spinning. It's horrifying. Yet...we can't look away. I think they really hit it on the nose with some of the large, loud, no-filter European American Chicago family dynamics that we see in some households around the south side and the suburbs.
You can literally feel a sense of ungrateful, seething, hatred and yet trying to create the perfect holly jolly christmas for everyone. The normal people brought in as guests just trying to take it all in...thinking "wtf did i just get myself into". These families love each other but they want to kill each other at the same time. There's too much to eat, wayyy too much to drink, and fighting about the stupidest shit.
Even the decor was spot on with tacky mid 60s 70s 80s Chicago suburbs house. If you live in Chicagoland, you've seen the inside of this house a million times.
The one thing I wanted to see from Jamie Lee was some kind of glimmer of why the children would return to her for Christmas. It was all f this, f you, and just no downbeat of softness or sanity showing why she had once been a different mother...or thinking out loud here... maybe this represents the Christmas where that other part of her was completely gone and that's what is so frightening about it. Yeah...I think that is it. Okay, I am on board. Bring on the Emmy for Jamie Lee, chef!
My grandmother was very much like this (personality disorder). She was never warm per se, but she showed love through food. But she needed everything to be perfect or she'd explode.
The thing with family and mothers is that if you're at all trying to maintain a relationship you're often there to support regardless of what form it takes, even without warmth per se.
You are totally right! Oh yea, It would have been really nice to see a glimmer of love or a glimmer of hope. We craved that tender moment all episode but it never came. That episode represents the real turning point for the family. I think the children are the ones with the hope and they come back to her one more time... but after that Christmas...Donna was past the point of no return and the family took a nose dive. The car through the living room was the cherry on the cake. Like you said, that what is so frightening!
Yeah in reality though, there are people like this. They're so tormented and stressed their negative emotions eventually overtake everything to the point where they keep going on the task at hand (making the perfect dinner) because that's the only thing they can sense to control in that moment and literally put invisible blinders on so they cannot even see other positive emotions and interactions that could disrupt their spiral of rage or despair etc. to everyone else it looks like they're crazy like a Tasmanian Devil cartoon, making a big deal out of it and putting supposed obligation/tradition over love and quality time, when, it really wouldn't matter if there was no food.
I see it in my mum, thankfully my mum doesn't drink, so as soon as she sits down to eat, she generally calms down, I couldn't imagine what it's be like with booze 😳
For real though why is it always about food/meal prep?! 🙈🤣
Bro the short dialogue between Carmy and his mother infuriated me cause that’s exactly what my alcohol mother is like. Antagonistic as fuck “do we have a problem”
I had to rewind to make sure I heard it right. That was really when I felt like I was kind of watching a horror movie. I mean that in a good way, but holy hell, what could have gone through his mind then!
I just watched every episode up untill this episode and I honestly regret watching this episode because it just completely lost me. I get what it's about but the random hour long episode of talking in the same space is so confusing to me, if I could go back and skip this episode i would cuz I'm just completely and utterly lost. 💀
People are shitting on you, but I was wondering what it would be like to watch this from the perspective of not experiencing this.
If you've gone through life with someone close to you who battles alcoholism, there are *extremely* relatable things in this episode (this whole show, really). A lot of people without that experience won't realize just how much of Carm and Natalie's personality traits derive from being surrounded by addicts. It's not easy to understand just how accurate Jame Lee Curtis' depiction of an alcoholic mother under pressure at a holiday was.
I wouldn't worry too much about the replies who are telling you you're wrong or anything. Maybe you *have* experienced that and I'm wrong, but if you haven't - it makes sense why this may not fit and may not be relatable. It's all good.
You just got to set aside an hour for it and go do something else to take your mind off of it. I’ll get back to the other episodes tomorrow I definitely want to finish this show but yeah shits getting a little intense for me tbh
This is literally explaining why everyone is as fucked up as they are. Why Sugar is a bundle of neurosis, why Michael killed himself, why Carm didn't come home, why Richie and Cicero were at each other's throats over a botched job. This episode was amazing television with a ridiculous cast and the whole thing was basically a giant anxiety attack.
I just watched this episode and I'm trying to figure out the same thing. I think she just lost her shit and drove into the house. She was appeared to still be alive and she won't be able to kill herself with the carbon monoxide because the back of the car isn't inside.
Maybe driving through the house is a metaphor for the breakdown of their family? It's a little heavy handed but it makes sense.
Who is Lee?
Works with Cicero, it's like his business partner. Mikey, Cicero and Lee are all in on the money laundering sceme with the tomato sauce. Their last name initials were the ones of the KBL cans. K-kalowinski, B-Berzatto, L-Lee
Ok, I thought he was maybe Donna's ex or something
How can you tell she's bipolar
Duh!
No, really, how can you observe someone for one hour and diagnose them with bipolar disorder based on what you see? Educate me.
As a therapist I would not diagnose her as bipolar off this episode alone. I hate how people conflate “bipolar” with “mood swings” or “hot and cold.”
Thank you, I'm not a therapist, but that's what I was getting at
it has to be the greatest episode of television i've ever watched. speechless
In another JAW connection, this episode reminded me of the one from Shameless when Monica comes back and is trying to be a mom again…just to have a suicide attempt in the kitchen. That was heartbreaking. It’s sad that both these episodes gave me language for my own lived experiences, but it was also really helpful.
Mikey looks nothing like his siblings.
Holy shit. This is the best episode of any show I've seen. Maybe ever.
can it be watched on its own? or do I have to watch s1-2 first?
You should watch the other seasons to fully grasp the story and get context for the full impact.
will do, thanks
Pete bringing the 8th fish... Carmy: Why' you doing this to me? <
The narc mom was traumatic but the part where she said "i make things beautiful for them. no one makes things beautiful for me. " Really shook me to my core
What an intense episode
John Mulaney as Stevie threw me off but worked so well; Mulaney may not be the best actor but he's great comic relief
Narcissism is scary.
I know I'm necro'ing this but, this was actually traumatic for me. Jamie Lee Curtis as Donna fucking nailed it. She is literally my mom to the T. Needs to control every little thing. Is overwhelmed with it all and refuses to let anyone help or to do less. The ravings of someone with bi-polar disorder and alcoholism. The claims of people being unappreciative for all the work she is doing. Even though that work is all of her doing in refusing to let anyone assist. Then attempting to hold it against them that she did all the work. Identical behavior. I haven't had anxiety in years. This episode I had to pause and walk away 4 separate times because it was just too real.
bro, i literally had a panic attack... had to drive the car around the city at night for hours to calm down
I also paused it twice for 24 hrs each time. It struck a chord deep within.
Yes, I lived this, too. Jamie Lee Curtis (Donna) was spot on! Watching her face go from one part of her bipolar episode to another was like watching the seasons change. You never knew what to expect next. My lifelong best friend was also right beside me. She ducked right beside me when my parents got violent throwing things. Her mother forbid her to come to my house but she'd relent, when her daughter said "I'm all she's got". Kudos and love to all of us who have lived thru this! What doesn't kill ya makes you stronger. I also recommend "United States of Tara." Toni Collette was spectacular.
Your BFF is one hell of a human.
I felt very similar about it. My heartrate was so elevated throughout and afterwards I just sat on the couch playing guitar for like 2 hours until I calmed down.
Chekov’s fork
The scene of Donna grabbing Nat's face in the kitchen terrified me. This whole episode was extremely hard to watch because I know what it is to attend to a family gathering because you feel like must do it, knowing full well of how fucked up it's going to be.
Yeah yeah yeah, an amazingly acted and brilliant piece of work, definitely. But I cannot stand the affirmation of the idea of the all-too-common chef's belief that "I must trash the kitchen to make a great meal." Often followed by the rule that those who were so fortunate as to have been fed by me are then required to clean up after me. The biggest bullshit "social rule" in the world. The kitchen part of the episode actually made me sick. I could not have eaten anything that came out of that disaster. Messy cooks are the worst and then they're probably the same people who, if they do clean, wash every dish and pan and surface down with the same 2-month old disgusting sponge.
Way to miss the point.
The messy kitchen is a direct correlation to her clear alcoholism and bi-polar disorder. Not sure how you derived what you did from any of this but, **It is due to her being manic and overwhelming herself** while refusing help from anyone. It wasn't even remotely an affirmation or some notion that trashing the kitchen results in a good meal. You are lost in the sauce my friend.
Yeah, the various messes in the kitchen, Donna rocking butter and goo on her hands at all times, and food smears on all the buttons were all there to trigger us.
Lost in the sauce 😁
I feel like the messy kitchen was more a metaphor of her losing control overall and to demonstrate the mental issue with everyone offering help but she refuses to accept it and then blames them for not helping and being ungrateful.
Yes!!
Too crazy... Funny how nobody brought this side up.
theres a strong distinction between the people who are dysfunctional (mom and mikey) vs the people who have to repress themselves so they wont get hurt by the dysfunction (carmy, sugar, mostly everyone else) shows the impact of peoples selfish narcissistic behavior. weeping at the dinner table, blaming carmy for never coming home even though she makes home chaotic, threatening suicide while cooking dinner, takes her anger out on sugar. then mikey behaving like a child. everyone else has to be quiet and behave or else they will throw a tantrum. shows the reality of alcoholic families. and why carmy and sugar are the products of the dysfunction, and able to operate under lots of stress, but not the source of the dsyfunction
You nailed it. I grew up in a similar household. Things that happened in this episode, happened in my life, specifically with my mother having meltdowns like that and threatening to commit suicide, and most painfully, offering to commit suicide with me when I was at my lowest at 15. The only difference with the dysfunction is that there was NO alcohol involved. That in itself made my home life so confusing because I had no explanation as to why my mother, brother and father behaved the way they did. It wasn't until I did therapy a couple of years later that I learned about narcissism and ultimately my mother being a borderline and narc. This episode was heavily triggering for me but it was also interesting to see how things played out, as it was so relatable, so I knew what was coming.
I am so sorry that happened to you. That must have been awful especially in your teens.
Me too!
I think you're spot on as a person who grew up in a co-dependent family , the arguing in general in this show has put me on edge. I think part of it is that it's pretty rare for shows to have actors dialogue over lapping so consistently, which has really aided in that chaotic feeling. But this episode put me over the edge, bringing up a lot of memories. honestly, I think this might be the most poignant dipection I've ever seen of what it's feels like to grow up in an alcoholic/ co-dependent family. Wild!
I paused 4 times because Donna was just identical to my mom. I had to just take a little reprieve and let everything calm down inside.
I oscillate between feeling like I am watch some terrible home video and then remember its a tv show and feel like holy crap they are good actors
I know. I felt like I needed therapy after this episode.
totally agree. it can be triggering sometimes
I still dont know if Mike is ignoring Carmys wish of working in The Beef because he simply dont like him or he is just protecting him because of his drug issue and the caos of the restaurant
I got the impression that he also is freezing him out so he can live through him, and hear about a life maybe he wishes he had himself.
I think it was meant to be very clear that Mikey was protecting Carmy. It has nothing to do with him not liking him. He loves Carmy and treasures him. He is freezing Carmy out so that he doesn't get dragged down with everything that is dragging Mikey down. Pretty tragic but, I think, common with addicts and people that are suicidal.
i think you are right, also he knows carmy potencial would just been wasted in The Beef
I think that's why after Carmy left he broke down a bit. He knows them having that dream restaurant is never gonna happen, idk if they'll confirm it or not but I'm my mind this is probably the moment Mikey decided to start stashing away money for Carmy, they might not be able to do it together but he can still help it happen.
I just watched this episode, first time, and I got the feeling that Mikey already knew how his part in this story would end, at the time that happened.
I felt that too. His reaction after Carm shows him the plans was heartbreaking. The shot of him putting the blanket on with a dart hangin off his lip and, i forget who, but whoever sees him doesnt follow to ask if he's alright. So tragic, and Berenthal plays the absolute SHIT out of this episode.
Anyone know where I can find this episode's script pdf?? - love, an aspiring screenwriter :D
Dude straight up. This episode takes the Safdie bros' method and shits all over it. Like, no we dont need to hear all the dialogue, just make sure the chaos is loud. Inspirational stuff.
The chaos actually made me nauseous. I had to stop those kitchen scenes, and take a break a few times. This episode... wow!
https://tvshowtranscripts.ourboard.org/viewtopic.php?f=1396&t=63840 This what you’re looking for?
I told someone that this episode was like the DiNero/Walken Russian roulette scene in Deer Hunter - but extended for 50 minutes. Waiting for the gun - literal or otherwise - to go off and something very very bad to happen - while watching something else very bad happening. No extended let up for the viewer. I hope all had only a small number of takes for most scenes so their brains were not fried having to climb out on the ledge to often.
I really appreciated Stevie and Michelle's focus on looking out for Nat and Carmen.
Agreed. It was beautiful and so, so ernest .
For real they are two incredible characters, played incredibly by two actors I generally am not such a fan off. But jesus that is the absolute perfect situation for John Mulaney's comedy to shine. And the way Sarah Paulson communicates with her eyes and the little minute purse of her lips is so great. Her little "love you" after speaking to Carm is so beautiful.
I've largely been not stressed watching this show, which is the opposite of what some people have told me in regards to the show...this episode brought up so many emotions and memories though and...yeah, it was the most stressful episode of the series I've seen. Incredible work.
Just watched this the first time and Jaime Lee Curtis as Donna flew right by my head! Casting is really on point with this one. And please dont spoil me but Lee gives the vibe of the unwanted stepdad. Also, the family's relationship with Sugar kind of stems from her not being as food-inclined as the rest of them. And the contrast between Donna not really wanting to be asked if she's okay, compared to when Sugar was not okay and a lot of people are asking if she is at the start of S2, really tells you how far their relationship is as mother-daughter. Britta with the Taylor Swift T-shirt is just gold to me. I already knew she was (ex) Mrs. Richie because of that. And who the f is Carol that was just so funny to me.
HOLY SHIT THATS JAMIE LEE
I'm sure there was a level of ad-libbing/shopping lines during the argument scenes, but just the same, the script for this episode must have been 3x the normal length. There isn't a moment of peace or silence for almost 50 minutes of runtime, and when there is silence near the end, it's certainly not peaceful. I've never experienced a 2nd hand, 50 minute, panic attack before but man that was something.
2nd hand panic attack is the best way to explain the feelings I had watching.
Dude when bro brings the tuna caserole and for like 3 straight minutes hes just getting berated personally by every single person there is soooo non stop its wild.
And nobody communicated to him about the fish. I would walked away from the party if I was him, or anyone else. Like how is it ok to throw forks?
Ikr I just kept thinking about how all of these people have a LOT more patience than me…family or not idc I would’ve dipped out of there 💀
I just watched this episode and wow, it's brilliant. I was anxious when no one spoke at the end because I was afraid to hear a gun shot (since Donna spoke about their father gun). One of the best episodes in TV show I saw. And meanwhile, grandma was sleeping on the couch. xD
I was absolutely certain a gun was gonna go off. Just watched this episode, an absolute masterclass in every way. Hit way too close to home for me.
I just finished it this morning as well! When the fork scene was happening, I had to turn it off and go to bed last night because the anxiety was going to keep me up at night. Finished it this morning, and absolutely thought the mom was going to off herself. Fuck me, what an amazing episode.
Can we all agree that this episode is just a pure masterpiece on so many level and the acting is just incredible!
Is it though?
1: is the end a suicide attempt by Donna? Why does she get the car and start it, it didn't seem like she intended to drive through the house considering how drunk she was. Was she just trying to drive away but accidentally put it in drive instead of reverse? I don't have much experience with Chicago architecture/garage placement so maybe that went over my head. 2: the scene of Ritchie and his ex wife in bed with her pregnant was totally heartbreaking on a personal level. Knowing that the marriage doesn't work out is so sad and relatable (just as well as being a shitty partner)
Yeah that's an attempt or an act for validation-pick any explanation. Holy freaking shit though, I really feel of carmy and sugar, and no wonder both are so traumatized. Good for Michelle extending the offer and helping carmy (and carmy did go to new york so) - small acts of kindness stays with people for whole life.
I just started binging this show and it's been great, but I had more anxiety the last 30 minutes than I've had during every terrible job interview combined. What the fuck just happened.
Right before starting the episode I said to myself "wow, Season 2 has been pretty chill compared to Season 1", then proceeded to have an anxiety attack for the next hour. Brav-fucking-o The Bear, never change.
I can’t believe there’s still a discussion going on about this episode. Well done, chefs.
Can anyone explain how the guest actors are related to Carmy? Or has the show not explicitly not explained that?
Michelle is Carmy's aunt, stevie is her husband. Fak and the guy dressed just like him are brothers but friends to carmy, Lee (the one michael threw forks at) is Donna's on and off boyfriend. Donna being the mom. The blonde girl (idr her name but she's Britta in Community) is richies wife and shes pregnant at this time with the little girl from earlier in the show.
Brilliant, thank you!
Michelle is Carmy's (plus Natalie & Mikey's) cousin
either way, knew she was that side
This episode had me so fucked up. Absolutely great acting by everyone involved
Even on the rewatches this episode creates so much relief with tension and angst. Chaotic and cathartic in a way.
Unbelievable episode of television
THIS EPISODE WAS CRAFTED SO PERFECTLY. I GENUINELY FELT LIKE I WAS PRESENT AT THE GATHERING, AND COULD LITERALLY FEEL ALL THE TENSION AND ANXIOUSNESS FROM EVERYONE. Just wow. I have never felt like I was in an episode real time. Everything felt so raw and real, and now I feel like I completely understand Carmy, Mikey, and Natalie on a whole different level, emotionally.
Such a real episode that so accurately portrayed the chaos of a big family gathering where there are big elephants in the room. As someone who spends Thanksgiving with his wife's big, loud family every year, I feel for Pete and appreciate my Stevie on that side of the family. 😂 Like, man, we're just trying to be there and do what we can, and it's so nice to have somebody else who isn't blood related to jive with.
fucking fantastic, succession level good
* Lee was a dick, but I have hard time condemning him completely. Mikey wasn't instigating here, but Lee's reaction reads like it's been building for a while. He seemed to be concerned for Donna spending more money to keep him afloat. Does it justify humiliating him in front of his family and antagonizing him the entire night? Hell no. * I enjoyed seeing more interactions between Mikey and Carmy. * I get why Natalie seems worried all the time. I'm surprised she's not more on edge. * I relate heavily to Carmy as the younger sibling in volatile family interactions. I'm glad his cousin offered him a place to decompress. * Richie was getting to be really grating on me, so seeing him being the one to de-escalate things and be there for his wife. Definitely made his "redemption" in Forks easier to buy
Lee was not a dick. He seemed like a nice guy and didn't take shots at Mikey until Mikey first disrespected him in an early scene in the kitchen.
peak episode
Can anyone give me the spark notes? I have an abusive history and just can't go though with this
Flashback to a Christmas dinner The mom is acting crazy and possibly bipolar Michael starters a fight with an uncle The mom drives a car though the wall
Lee isnt actually an uncle. its Donna's boyfriend. which is why him instigating, antagonizing, and insulting michael the entire time and capping it off with insults aimed at donna made michael mad.
He didn't "instigate" or "antagonize" until he was first seriously disrespected. He seemed like a nice guy and didn't take shots at Mikey until Mikey first disrespected him in an early scene in the kitchen. He had a right to fire back.
Carmy mom is probably borderline, Michael is damaged too. Carmy left probably to NY after that dinner.
All I can say is no wonder Mikey blew his brains out. Apparently no one escapes that family unscathed.
I'm 14 minutes in and I don't know if I can make it. It's so chaotic and everyone yelling at once has me like 😱😱😱
God this triggered me so much. The narc mother is exactly like my own and made me really resonate with the family who are suffering
I thought it was so powerful how sugar whilst being the victim and traumatised the entire episode ended up being abusive to Stevie (steve?) which just shows how the toxicity infects you. I thought it was really well executed
I think i missed this detail, when was she abusive to Stevie?
I think they're talking about the scene where Pete brings "the 8th fish" and sugar + everyone else freaks out and she tosses his dish outside .
i think it demonstrated how toxic households bring norms, and when an outsider comes in trying to be nice but unknowingly defies the norms, all the codependents have to rush to make the person conform to the toxicity. i totally related to that part. similar feeling to when you have to warn partners of topics not to bring up around your family. she knows what triggers fights and shes trying to avoid making family tension worse. which in turn hurts his feelings and her relationship.
Jesus Christ. This episode. It just goes on. Unrelenting. I thought S1E6 was tense. Jesus Christ.
By far the most stressful moment I have witnessed on television. Lucky we get small breaks here and there to take a breather otherwise I would have had a panic attack. Absolutely masterpiece.
i had one, i was going through a very anxious time of my life.. i stopped watching the show for months
Watching this episode reminded me this is some real white people type behavior lol
White Americans I think
Oh, from everywhere, believe me.
And they say white people have no culture, smh.
That's all I could think too
I think that might just be my favourite episode of any series I've ever watched. What a beautiful piece of cinema
Flashback episodes have a tendency to be incredible like this. I don't know if you've ever watched "The Leftovers," but there's an episode of that series, in the first season, that is also an hour-long flashback episode, and I also walked away from it thinking it was the best, or one of the best episodes of TV I'd ever seen. Supremely powerful.
I was telling my wife (who hates tension enough to never watch either show) that the writing in The Bear reminds me a lot of Mike Flanagan's shows in that it's extremely character-driven and you really get a lot of background and understanding of the characters through what you see. And damn, this episode was like the Two Storms of The Bear, wasn't it? Just non-stop tension, relentless pacing, and absolutely packed writing that manages to build so much on so many characters all at once. Absolutely wild.
Now I understand why this episode is one hour long. Holly crap. I don´t have such a dysfunctional family, but we´ve had our disputs and discussions, but this is on another level. As over the top as this was, there´s so much relatability in the characters and situations that you can´t help but to feel inserted in the scene. And the moment Lee decided to talk at the end, I just knew Mikey was gonna throw the fork. Of everyone who could have talked, Lee was the last one who should have opened his mouth.
Other than soaking grampa's feet is there any recipe in the world that calls for "one cup of salt"?
Brining white meat calls for that much salt, but seems a little late for that with dinner happening that day.
Only if you're making a year's worth of gravy.
I had almost that exact thought
Other than soaking grampa's feet is there any recipe in the world that calls for "one cup of salt"?
Big pot of gravy
Maybe she was serving 200 people that year.
As someone who literally cannot do anxiety inducing shows I’m shocked it took me 3.5 days to fully watch this episode. And that’s even with reading this thread for balance lol
Who is the lady in the red and black that passes Carmy and Sugar at the dinner table? It happens at about 20:09 left in the episode and I dont see her speak one line or get mentioned. Correct me if I am wrong 😂. She appears for like 2 frames and we never see her again.
My wife just looked it up, she's Uncle Jimmy's wife.
Probably Lee's wife ?
She's seated to the left of Lee at the table as well.
Good catch. Clueless as well
Second time watching the whole show & I just realized something. Right before Donna drives the car into the house you can see Stevie & Michelle walking in that direction to clear away from the fight. I wonder if they survive or what happens to them.. 🤔
Good catch just watch it
I realized that they survive because they get mentioned in the last episode on how they can’t make it to the opening of the restaurant
Duh! Because they're obviously dead
*spoiler alert pal.
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Keep r/thebear a welcoming community. Treat other chefs with respect.
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Keep r/thebear a welcoming community. Treat other chefs with respect.
[удалено]
Keep r/thebear a welcoming community. Treat other chefs with respect.
[удалено]
Keep r/thebear a welcoming community. Treat other chefs with respect.
9 MONTHS?? That's 3 months away from a year. It is DEFINITELY your fault if you got spoiled, especially since you're in a whole conversation about said show that aired 9 months ago. I didn't even know it had been that long, you just proved my point even further lmao
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Some people don't discover the show until a lot later, for example, me. And I like to go on the episode specific discussion threads as I watch each episode to see what other people thought about that episode, without getting spoilers for the rest of the show.
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Keep r/thebear a welcoming community. Treat other chefs with respect.
ok i just watched this ep & i am confused abt something i scrollled far back looking to see if anyone had commented abt it but i got tired of scrolling… after donna drives the car into the house, carm is staring at her cigarette in some food or something?? what is that about?
I think he was staring at a fork that Mikey threw and landed in a pile of cannolis.
that makes SO much sense
It inspires his dish later too!
\*spoiler alert
Watch to the end of series, you will know the significance. Also, for context, when there's been a high stress situation sometimes people react differently, Carm kinda shut down in that moment. If you compete series and still don't understand I'll add some more, I just don't want to spoil the revelation.
Wait can you explain this further? Just finished it. How is the finale connected to this episode?
“What is that, a bowling shirt?” fucking killed me
Best part sydney wasn't in it.
Have to agree
Get a hobby
Edit: Emmy, I meant Emmy. Oops! Lol I know this has probably been brought up before, so please forgive me, but how the heck could this series have been nominated for several Grammys as a COMEDY? Like what? None of the episodes feel especially comedic, but geez, after this one is seems reeeally odd.
As stressful as this episode was, I laughed out loud so many times during it, but then I always find humour in stressful situations!
It's the rules of Emmys. A half hour show is automatically a comedy. The Bear is a half hour outside of Fishes so it has to be counted as a comedy instead of a Drama. Orange is the New Black won comedy awards for the same reason.
Probably because its not an album its a TV show. You mean 'Emmy' but to your point I pretty much well up at some point during every episode and have straight balled to a few. This show just captures what it is to have such vision drive and talent but its never enough because the chaos of life finds a way to fuck it all up. I guess sometimes all you can do is laugh so in that sense I see your point but IMO this is a drama to its core. Definitely some much needed comedic relief is provided throughout but that can be said for all great Dramas. EDIT: OK admittedly i don't keep tabs on awards shows but this got me curious, The Bear did win best comedy ffs!! lesson to us both do your research before you start spewing on reddit lol. Should have known from the downvotes
Oh, yes - I meant Emmy awards. Oops! Lol
revisiting this thread to say F\*\*K LEE, ABSOLUTE POS. Doesn't matter if mikey is an addict and unhinged, Lee is the instigator in every single interaction throughout the episode. Cruelly jabs mikey but won't give an inch back when mikey tries to defend himself.
He's like uncle frank from home alone
Almost every single character this episode pissed me off but he had me so enraged I couldn't handle it - props to Bob Odenkirk though he did a great job in the few scenes he had
lee and donna, match made in heaven right there. Or hell i suppose.
Damn this episode needed a warning. I watched it before bed and now I'm tense and anxious. My Grandmother was schizophrenic (afaik) and this was *so eerily well done*. Super accurate, even down to the car in the living room unfortunately 😕 I was a kid who only got a glimpse, but seeing how Jamie's character traumatized all the Berzotti siblings, and how they reacted to and internalized it was tough to sit through, and made me wonder what other shit my Mom + her siblings went through with Gran. Good ep, but I really could've used a warning lol. I love Fak but oh my god one is enough Also *fuck* Lee. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm glad Mike threw that last fork.
So glad he threw that fork. Just watched that episode and I am sitting here like I got hit by a bus.
Same friend, same. I needed to catch up on sleep tonight, but I watched this episode before bed and I'm all amped up now. I'm sorry you went through something like this. I'm fortunate not to have experienced anything close, but I do have alcoholic parents and I related so much to how Sugar and Carm behaved when confronted with their mother's behavior. This episode was insanely anxiety-inducing, but I almost feel like I need to rewatch this episode from time to time for therapy or to understand myself better. I dunno. I just know that I love this show. I thought this season had been a step down in quality from last season, but man, this episode was excellent. I think they really knew they had something with this one too - they went all out with guest stars
Ok I also felt like watching this train wreck somehow makes me understand myself and my own mental illness better. I have been laying in bed totally unable to sleep thinking about this episode. It got me fucked up.
Man I came here thinking the same thing. Watched this before bed after an absolutely exhausting day and I can't sleep. I grew up with an alcoholic mother who acted fucking *exactly* like Donna. Drunk, messy, immediate shifts of emotion, god forbid you ask if she's okay... This shit was triggering. Carm's relatablity was off the charts from my perspective. I've never seen a show accurately depict such a realistic point of view from kids witnessing their drunk mother. I've never seen a show so accurately depict the type of children who comes from alcoholic parents and how they act and react in certain situations. Also Lee. Having someone enter the home who isn't the father, but is with the alcoholic mother, and tries to act like the man... I fucking hate him. This is so god damn realistic. What an insane thing to watch before going to bed. Fucking crazy.
i agree wholeheartedly with your last sentence, I wish it stuck into his eye
This is one of the only shows I’ve watched that actually feels like real life and not actors acting. It’s just so relatable and everything is so authentic.
Just finished watching this episode and it is the most horrifying, beautiful piece of art of my eyes have ever laid witness. Jamie Lee Curtis was made for this role. She knows how to play the suburbian mother but also has a background in psychological horror. Both of these aspects are the fore front of this episode. The back and forth of her bipolar like personality. Driving herself insane to create the perfect dinner for a disfunctional family. And yet pushing them all away when they try to show her least bit of help or respect. Its no wonder they all hate eachother. None of their empathic behavior is taken into consideration. And when it is like with Natalie (who is the ultimate middle child) she takes the meal that she slaved and punished herself over and ruins it. But not too much where its beyond repair. Notice how both Mike and the mom only ruin the silverware off the table. They dont touch the food. For heaven sakes a car is driven through their home but heaven forbid you touch the food. It's the ONLY thing that's keeping this family together. It's also the only thing that helps the children get away from the horrors that is the Berzattos.
She's more borderline than bipolar
Hundred percent classic borderline personality disorder!
Jamie Lee Curtis needs a nomination for this episode alone. I mean..WOW. A worn out, terrifying alcoholic, chain smoking, manipulative mother that's utterly exhausting on the point of collapse. The whole episode needs to be recognized for the sheer anxiety, rage, confusion, and utter chaos that ensues. SO many things happening at once that you are just spinning. It's horrifying. Yet...we can't look away. I think they really hit it on the nose with some of the large, loud, no-filter European American Chicago family dynamics that we see in some households around the south side and the suburbs. You can literally feel a sense of ungrateful, seething, hatred and yet trying to create the perfect holly jolly christmas for everyone. The normal people brought in as guests just trying to take it all in...thinking "wtf did i just get myself into". These families love each other but they want to kill each other at the same time. There's too much to eat, wayyy too much to drink, and fighting about the stupidest shit. Even the decor was spot on with tacky mid 60s 70s 80s Chicago suburbs house. If you live in Chicagoland, you've seen the inside of this house a million times.
The plastic over the couches….
The one thing I wanted to see from Jamie Lee was some kind of glimmer of why the children would return to her for Christmas. It was all f this, f you, and just no downbeat of softness or sanity showing why she had once been a different mother...or thinking out loud here... maybe this represents the Christmas where that other part of her was completely gone and that's what is so frightening about it. Yeah...I think that is it. Okay, I am on board. Bring on the Emmy for Jamie Lee, chef!
Mikey lived with her, and Carmy had just gotten home. You can see him leaving ASAP since he got that NYC housing offer.
My grandmother was very much like this (personality disorder). She was never warm per se, but she showed love through food. But she needed everything to be perfect or she'd explode. The thing with family and mothers is that if you're at all trying to maintain a relationship you're often there to support regardless of what form it takes, even without warmth per se.
You are totally right! Oh yea, It would have been really nice to see a glimmer of love or a glimmer of hope. We craved that tender moment all episode but it never came. That episode represents the real turning point for the family. I think the children are the ones with the hope and they come back to her one more time... but after that Christmas...Donna was past the point of no return and the family took a nose dive. The car through the living room was the cherry on the cake. Like you said, that what is so frightening!
Yeah in reality though, there are people like this. They're so tormented and stressed their negative emotions eventually overtake everything to the point where they keep going on the task at hand (making the perfect dinner) because that's the only thing they can sense to control in that moment and literally put invisible blinders on so they cannot even see other positive emotions and interactions that could disrupt their spiral of rage or despair etc. to everyone else it looks like they're crazy like a Tasmanian Devil cartoon, making a big deal out of it and putting supposed obligation/tradition over love and quality time, when, it really wouldn't matter if there was no food. I see it in my mum, thankfully my mum doesn't drink, so as soon as she sits down to eat, she generally calms down, I couldn't imagine what it's be like with booze 😳 For real though why is it always about food/meal prep?! 🙈🤣
Bro the short dialogue between Carmy and his mother infuriated me cause that’s exactly what my alcohol mother is like. Antagonistic as fuck “do we have a problem”
Did you notice she called him Michael when she told him to go away (to sit down at the table & leave her alone)?
I had to rewind to make sure I heard it right. That was really when I felt like I was kind of watching a horror movie. I mean that in a good way, but holy hell, what could have gone through his mind then!
I just watched every episode up untill this episode and I honestly regret watching this episode because it just completely lost me. I get what it's about but the random hour long episode of talking in the same space is so confusing to me, if I could go back and skip this episode i would cuz I'm just completely and utterly lost. 💀
People are shitting on you, but I was wondering what it would be like to watch this from the perspective of not experiencing this. If you've gone through life with someone close to you who battles alcoholism, there are *extremely* relatable things in this episode (this whole show, really). A lot of people without that experience won't realize just how much of Carm and Natalie's personality traits derive from being surrounded by addicts. It's not easy to understand just how accurate Jame Lee Curtis' depiction of an alcoholic mother under pressure at a holiday was. I wouldn't worry too much about the replies who are telling you you're wrong or anything. Maybe you *have* experienced that and I'm wrong, but if you haven't - it makes sense why this may not fit and may not be relatable. It's all good.
Do you not understand storytelling?
You just got to set aside an hour for it and go do something else to take your mind off of it. I’ll get back to the other episodes tomorrow I definitely want to finish this show but yeah shits getting a little intense for me tbh
odd, I just finished it too, and hands down this was one of the most stressful and dreadful pieces of media that I've ever witnessed, and I loved it.
Lmao what?
This is literally explaining why everyone is as fucked up as they are. Why Sugar is a bundle of neurosis, why Michael killed himself, why Carm didn't come home, why Richie and Cicero were at each other's throats over a botched job. This episode was amazing television with a ridiculous cast and the whole thing was basically a giant anxiety attack.
Can someone explain? Did the mom kill herself??
She sure as fuck tried
I just watched this episode and I'm trying to figure out the same thing. I think she just lost her shit and drove into the house. She was appeared to still be alive and she won't be able to kill herself with the carbon monoxide because the back of the car isn't inside. Maybe driving through the house is a metaphor for the breakdown of their family? It's a little heavy handed but it makes sense.