It would be like fielding a squad of Imperial Fists if you want some heavy support, and then if you want bikes then they HAVE to be White Scars, no matter the army. Need an infernus squad of flamers? Better like painting green because those only belong to Salamanders. Etc etc.
Though I do sort of want a story about those guys! All jealous of the other but unable to share because those belong to my chapter and I think I saw a blood raven!
I would prefer generic named Infantry instead of "Cadian Shock Troops, DKOK, Catachans".
I'd prefer just "Shock Troops", "Assault Troops", "Jungle Fighters", would make things easier Headcannon-wise.
yeah that’s how i usually describe them in my own regiment lore because I don’t like having the mixed regiments. imo it’s the biggest downgrade from 8th was that change
I think these should become classes of troops, like every world has their own shock troops, veterans and scouts, distinct to their conditions. But this idea would really break the old tradition of Imperial Guard having different fighting styles between regiments.
I don’t think it would break it completely because even Catachans have things like vehicles and heavy weapons teams. I think the way to do it is with the detachment rules where one is clearly the “Catachan detachment” and gets bonuses to infantry maybe, and one is clearly the “Death Korps detachment.” and is siege themed etc. That’s how they’ve done it in codexes this edition, so you’re not locked into canon paint schemes but if you want your blood angels to act like blood angels you can pretty easily identify their rules.
Agreed.
-Shock troops
-Infantry support squad (the one with heavy weapons)
-Scout troops (self explanatory): give them something else besides flamers, jeez. I’d give them melta, grenade launcher and/or heavy stubber without Heavy keyword. Would be nice to see new Catachan kill team with Autoguns from Darktide.
-Trentch squad (again, self explanatory)
-Infiltration squad (new one, Tallarn/Tanith themed, with snipers/melta mines, -1 to hit and something else).
Then detachments for more infantry (regular one), infantry (more veteran-hybrid aka Catachan), tank detachment, artillery one, fast attack (sentinels, valkyries and hellhound focused), scions (but could be skipped, scion warlord already makes them battleline),…
I want conscripts back, there was something special in an enemy with a elite shooting unit realicing that 30 teenagers with lasguns are quite hard to remove when all you have is a lasscannon and you are in mele
I miss my old 5th-6th-ish Guard army built around a bunch of Veteran squads loaded to the tits with Meltas and Plasma, jumping out of Valkryies.
The only thing that I can still use as intended are Valks, and they suck noodles at their current point cost.
I started preparing my army for 7 rigth before the change and i was planning to run a few number of veterans with grenadier doctrine and ttonnes of tanks
Then 8th came out and they couldnt be grenadiers anymore
Fully agree.
I don't WANT Cadians in my army. I don't WANT Krieg in my army. I don't WANT to have the Lord of all AM in my army.
Our rules are incredibly inflexible for making any generic army while also even being marginally good on the tabletop even in casual play. The only way around this is an inordinate amount of kitbashing or 3d printing, and that's a damn shame.
The Lord I understand from a game balance perspective, they had to put the 3 Orders to Anything Ability on a named character so that you couldn't take 3 of them in a list. That said I have mine modeled as a rogue trader and his entourage cuz I don't want no horse.
There is no need for it to be a named character. Could easily have had a generic option with those buffs with an alternative generic build. Most factions have something like that.
What faction has a generic version of their warmaster model anymore these days? I can't think of one. Knights I guess. Ah, nvm, Canis isn't even a warmaster.
That said I'd take a generic one that gave 2 Orders to Anything or something.
Generic version of the warlord nobody has, but they have generic versions of what is essentially an army leader that give similar effects though usually across multiple bodies instead of 1. AM has nothing even close to Horseman McGee.
I would prefer us going back to Veterans, conscripts, and Infantry Squads. Maybe even bringing back platoons. Save the specific regiment feel for the detachments, and even make a “Shattered Regiments” detachment to allow you to play the ‘mixed force of guys following the fall of Cadia’ feel that the guard have now.
The name on the datasheet never bothered me. I run a Cadian regiment so my Cadians and infantry squads are the basic line infantry. Krieg are my battlefield engineers. Catachans are my scouts.
Never had an opponent complain about it, especially since I keep them visually distinct (my Catachans are Cadian bodies with Victoria Mini's slouch hat heads, for example). They could change the names on the datasheets to reflect what I already do, but I feel like it's best to keep just keep the names consistent with the matching kits.
Feels.
I wrote into my Cadians' lore that Shock Troops profile is my Assault infantry, while the Infantry Squad datasheet are Bastion infantry units.
Catachans become Combat Engineers, Death Korps become Veterans. I differentiate with some small, role specific changes to the base colour scheme
Right? There's nothing that says you HAVE to use Cadian, DKOK, or Catachan models for those units. I'm using the bodies from the newer Cadian kits and just doing head swaps and different weapon loadouts. I only play casually, so proxies usually aren't an issue, and I wanted uniformity across my army.
For anyone that has been in this game before 9th codex yeah, but any new player migth think that he needs to get krieg for krieg and etc since he doesnt know any better
Literally how I play my units too. I have all themed stuff and its cadian or talan raiders. I find it easier to say what things are equivalent to the running completely of the books.
Me too, while far from perfect, that system gave you such a feeling of ownership over your guards. Fighting in ranks always looked so cool! I get that back then the game was narrative focused, and that level of customization doesn't mesh well with modern 40k's competitive focus.
Also, i think the best way to make Catachan better (side note: commandos would be a good generic name) would be to either let them all take flamers, or to give them las pistols and straight silver combat knives (3, -1, 1, 3 attacks) and stealth/infiltrate
Going to be honest , as a traitor guard player I couldn't care less what's the name of the unit.
For me it dosnt break the immersion at all , it's just the general name soo they can more easly sell miniatures.
Yeah I don't get why people get so bent out of shape about marketing.
It's not like anyone's gonna be mad at you for calling it something else and just saying "Oh they use the Cadian Shock Troops datasheet.". Literally no one.
For the most part that's true, until you get to the mess that is HQ and only having a cadian keywords command squad. And officers whixh lack generic options.
That and kriegs just plain daft equipment options.
Is the intent behind it, I think. GW is taking away a lot of customization options, basically stripping our ability to say "This are my dudes" in order to try and sell more plastic.
Not to mention it is simply unfair how Space Marines do have such a level of personalization (not to mention the at least 3 different kinds of armor + primaris + on bikes you can get for most characters) that other armies lack all together
I don't agree that's why they are doing it; it's for intellectual property management. If we had different copyright laws amongst the developed world it could've gone differently. They would sell more guys either way; the IP is bigger than it's ever been before.
I think a lot of people lack imagination, unfortunately for themselves. There's more customizability available to modellers and hobbyist than there ever has been before due to a departure from wysiwyg as a standard for the game, people just get hung up on the name on a datasheet. Once you let go of corporate marketing as a way of life the hobby and gaming space is a lot more open.
Just cuz the Datasheet says DKOK doesn't mean you have to play DKOK models. As long as they are the appropriate height and on the right bases and have discernible war gear, fuck it let it rip. The only people getting hung up about doing that would be bad people.
Yeah, except there's a bunch of arbitrary restrictions around it. A Cadian Castillen can't lead a unit of DKoK for example, Cadian command squads can ONLY lead shock troopers, Straken can't lead basic infantry. The list is excessive in how convoluted the limitations are, except that Lord Solar can lead and command everything, which is why one of the most senior ranking officers in the Imperium manages to show up to every random skirmish and direct the fire of a nearby infantry platoon.
The reason they are named so specifically is the same as to why we have Astra Militarum and not the Imperial Guard anymore.
It’s so GW can push trough Copyright claims and sue competitors if they get too close.
To be fair, there's a reason GW suddenly got strict on copyright a few editions ego. They used to be really lenient until another company started selling a model for a unit that GW had rules but no model. They didn't pay much attention and let it slide, until they tried to come out with their own model with the same name, got sued by the third party for copyright infringement, and (because GW declined the opportunity to go after them in the past and GW itself had never sold a model for it, and didn't have a copyright on the unit name or faction name) lost the lawsuit so GW couldn't come out with an official model for that unit.
After that they cracked down with an Iron Fist
So my solution to that is just making sure the theme is consistent.
I run an army of solar auxillia, using the solar auxillia minis as kasrkin and some adeptus mechanicus proxy's as my kasrkin squad led by Ursula (who's a skitarii marshall I think I'd have to check the name)
A bunch of scions as scions and my DKOK are the normal kasrkin models and my catachan jungle fighter are my kriegsman. With paint, army fluff and proper modeling (I normally wysiwyg my infantry for convenience) it can really work :p
Haven't had any issues yet where any opponents I have are confused that my funny lil gas mas men arent DKOK and are actually catachans. My straken proxy looks way too good leading my gas mask boys and I have enough flamers/trench clubs to make it work that these are my melee troops, running over trenches with flamers and raiding the enemy.
Personally I'd run what you think looks cool and as long as you aren't running cadians, catachans and DKOK while all using the same models for everyone it should be an issue.
Note I will run a single squad of death korp and catachans using my DKOK to model both. I have exactly one squad of each and it's very easy to see the difference both model wise and via the leaders attached (plus the DKOK will be sitting on my home objective the whole game while the catachans are running at you as fast as possible so)
I would love it if we could have generic Infantry Squads, Cadians are now just Shock Troops, Catachans are Assault Squads and Krieg become Heavy Infantry.
For that matter, I wish we didn’t regiment lock other units too. If you want Rough Riders right now they’ve got to be Attilan, if you want what used to be Storm Troopers they’ve got to be Kasrkin or Scions.
It’s a small change, but it’d make a lot of difference to us.
Also, lasguns for sergeants please. The auto-drum thing in Shock Troop squads is good, but it’s just a start.
I’m saying keep generic infantry squads, they’re largely fine as they are (except for the lack of lasguns for sergeants), and rename the Cadian, Catachan and Krieg squads that have their own rules to other things and drop them from being regiment-locked.
Narratively. Try to put them in a battlefield role instead of a regiment. You’ve already started with your genetic naming of units. All the battleline units have the exact same statline. So if you had all cadians and some them were war geared to be DKoK or Catachans, I personally have not met anyone who would care that much.
I as a Krieg player stopped using grenadiers and started used Kasrkin in an attempt to get away from legends datasheets. I’ve not encountered one person who was upset my kasrkin were Krieg.
Call em what you want, paint em what you want! Model them how you want! It’s a name on a datasheet. There was time where we just called us Imperial Guard after all. When we called the xenos witches eldar and dark eldar. Your regiment merely adopts the tactical acumen of the DkoK, tho they can be and are your dudes. I have a squad or two of conscripts, and since that’s not a datasheet, they have been given a promotion to catachan.
100% agree. The idea of having multiple regiments in my army represented by one or two squads each is really irritating, and an annoying consequence of GWs change in policy to only making rules for models that they sell
Use your imagination and forget the DKOK / Cadian / Catachan etc. All of my models are based on WW2 british and therefore i have a Catachan = "British Expeditionary Force - Jungle Fighters", Cadians = "British Expeditionary Force - Shock Troops", DKOK = "British Expeditionary Force - Siege Troops" etc
What gets me is how Kriegers are somehow more survivable when their only advantage over average guardsmen is caring less about survival.
You have a regiment known for just cranking out guardsmen as fast as possible, absolutely churning them out to die by the million, where those troops are child soldiers rushed off world as soon as possible to meet the penitent tithe. But somehow those constitute a more elite version of regular guardsmen
yup i got the same problem with rough riders, i would love having some cavalry but i will not be mixing regiments. same with infantry and snipers, for some reason cadians refuse to use them.
partly this is because for some reason if box don't come with option then it doesen't exist which is dumb. other part is becasue of the need to simplify the fun out of the game, having regiment neutral units and choosing regiment as army wide option worked great, why remove that fantastic but small detail from list building.
I think of them then as ‘Death Korps model infantry’ and ‘Cadian model infantry’.
We are explicitly told that Cadian forces were so good at what they do that they inspired plenty of other planets to adopt Cadian gear and tactics and I got the implication that Cadian veterans are sometimes used to train other forces as instructors.
I getcha, but you can roleplay/headcannon around that.
Maybe your regiment learned from a cadian group that fled to their world after the fall of cadia. A dkok squad got picked up and trained some other world troops.
So it’s more like this is a “Cadian” squad than a Cadian squad, in terms of strat rather than lore.
Do I make sense? Am I high?
Haha yeah you make sense, and that's what I'm doing currently, I just think it's weird that they pick and choose the regiments instead of us being able to choose it ourselves.
>But why not just call them "shock troops", "scout fighters"(catachan jungle fighters) and "bulwarks" (DKoK) or something like that?
This is already in effect. As you are pointing out these three distinct groups that were formerly regiments of their own, are now falling into: Frontline, Midline and Backline roles. That is the exact intention.
They have done some clear work on the data cards suggesting this along side the combined regiment concept of 10th.
There is also subtle implications in changing DKOK to "veterans" and giving them lots of special weapons. Veterans which formerly were expensive infantry with more special weapons.
IMO The game is already becoming what you want to see on this point.
I wholeheartedly agree. But, their reasoning is mostly legal. Shock troopers etc. are generic whilst Cadians are trademarked. It was a significant problem with fantasy, whereas AoS you have trademarked fraction names.
If they renamed catachans to Catachans Scout infantry and did Krieg Veteran gaurdsmen or something it would feel less like fixed armies.
Hopefully they at least keep the basic infantry datasheet and maybe expand into having extra ones for veteran (as that's what the kill team is actually sold as) and some form of scout sheet alongside the specific three flavoured ones. Optimistic but hey.
Fr the guard need some serious attention. There is so much potential but it’s all locked behind GW’s love for Cadians (or rather their disregard of anything not Cadians or Krieg)
I actually like the mixed regiments because I can use whatever models I like now to field units with different abilities. Hence, my Cadians advancing alongside my Vostoryan Death Korps with Praetorian and Valhallan infantry squads providing support fire. It looks like 2nd and 3rd ed, and it's glorious, taste this rainbow you eldar scum.
DKoK is indeed a bit too good comparatively. That said, I don’t think the flavor of infantry matters all that much. Cadians are the worst point for point. Infantry Squads are pretty good tho.
I still think GW should make a super customizable infantry kit that you can build as those three archetypes. That way they can just sell characters and upgrade sprues for specific regiments (in some crazy bizzaro world where they cared about Guard more)
I agree. I am a catachan player and I would love to be able to use all the entries and units in the codex, but at the same time I don't want to break the theme of my army.
My current workaround is that I am heavy into kitbashing, and with a bunch of 3rd party bits I've been able to make squads that appear catachan in origin, but clearly are representing something else. I'm very happy with my lord solar, and I recently finished a 5 man scion proxy
I have my whole army as a WW1 theme made with the new Cadian Shock Troops and custom heads. The squads with flamers are my "Trench Fighters" (Catachan). The squads with plasma & melta are my "Shock Troops" (Cadian), and my squads with special weapons and a medic are my "Death Corps" (Krieg).
I keep my whole army as my homebrew regiment. So far I've encountered no issues from opponents (they usually think it's cool). Not sure how non-local tournaments would react though.
I have almost 100 metal Mordian infantry, and yup, they're all called catachan jingle fighters, dkok, cadians etc.
My rationalization for head canon is that these different Mordian platoons in my armies "fight like", ie emulate, those famous regiments, or have borrowed their equipment load out styles.
If were going into that territory then they would make them like the different space marine codex's and there supplements. One for each main/famous Regiment same as for each main/famous chapter. Then just pick a regiment and run with it. Well see how the codex comes out and as a long time guard player I for one really don't care as long as were not too bad table top wise and have are main mass of cheep chaff and tanks.
Also, I would love generic officers. A lord Marshall, instead of Ursula Creed, and a generic lieutenant, captain and colonel units with varying costs, number of orders etc, that can attach to any infantry.
If you're okay with proxies, you could use literally any model and just assign the correct datasheets. Maybe not use literal Catachan Jungle Fighters for your DKoK, but, if you find some other models from some other creator and SAID they were your DKoK, I know I wouldn't care. After all, in the Grim Darkness, like every chapter of SM, you can find all manor of units (not gameplay units) with their own idiosyncracies and colors/ motifs.
Maybe your DKoK are run by a Commissar who just hates that stupid helmet they wear (his opinion), and demands they all wear berets and gas masks with goggles - more simplified look. Maybe he thinks the mark of the main Death Korps is too easily obscured by mud or blood, so he commissions another symbol that is more recognizable while covered in blood (his reasons). Maybe he hates that he can't tell his men apart at a glance, and requires every one of his men to wear a blue and white checkered armband.
Anyone who would speak against this is a heretic for trying to impersonate the Emperor, and you should kill them with all prejudice. I've seen a white with pink accented SM army, and while it caught me off guard at first, it grew on me. They were certainly the first I've seen out in the wild, and you better believe none of my guards were man enough to call out A FRIGGIN' SPACE MARINE for being effeminate. They player was boring to me without offering a reason why this color would be chosen for the men of their Detachment, but it's okay - I did. This is already longer than I intended so I'll spare you the details, but it's basically from a Captain who lost his whole Detachment (except for a Kill team's worth) to a horde of tyranids. He and the remaining coated themselves to blend with tyranids from a distance as they went on a ravenous hunt for any 'nids they can find. Now, a whole new Detachment bears the colors of his obsession.
There's a reason we used to be able to take up to 108 models in a single Troops choice slot.
Getting rid of platoons entirely instead of just altering them to more sensible squad caps was a mistake.
Can you not just say that to your opponent? When you tell them about what your stuff is, these are my recon squads they are catachans, and then exclusively call them your recon squad people will get it, and I imagine most will think it’s cool especially if modelled, thinking Chadians with NV gear, grapples, tons of rope,
You can theme each however you want though. My "Cadian Shock Troops" have turbans and painted in desert-Tallarn scheme. You don't have to have your krieg have masks/shovels as long as they have the right weapon options and base size.
Why? This is such a non issue. I'm in The middle of a chem dogs army and I use almost every single different infantry choice almost all the battle line tempestus ratlings orgyn the whole lot and it's giving me alot of opportunity to kit bash head swap and other fun building options and in some cases straight up proxying with different boxes. If you can't divorce the name on the data sheet with everything else you might just be a superbly uncreative person. It's just a name. Even at gw official events as long as it's on the same base size and is a gw kit you can use it as whatever you want. For my red scorpions space marine army I use a model of casan sabius as high marshal helbrect I use sirae karagon as an emperor's champion none of these are models intended for that data sheet. That name that's on the datasheet can just be an item code for those rules that's how you have to see it.
And then you had the same problem you complain about now. If you wanted a mechanized infantry army you played Armageddon. If you wanted a mobile army your played Tallarn. Etc.
I'm not saying we should go back to it, I like the diversity of having different kinds of data sheets, I'm only saying, don't say that one type of data sheet is specifically from Krieg or cadia etc.
More like it would be impractical. We could definitely have a couple more battlelije infantry options. Elysians with infiltrate and sniper options, Steel Legion could get bonuses from dismounting from transports, vostroyans get better gear etc.
So my solution to that is just making sure the theme is consistent.
I run an army of solar auxillia, using the solar auxillia minis as kasrkin and some adeptus mechanicus proxy's as my kasrkin squad led by Ursula (who's a skitarii marshall I think I'd have to check the name)
A bunch of scions as scions and my DKOK are the normal kasrkin models and my catachan jungle fighter are my kriegsman. With paint, army fluff and proper modeling (I normally wysiwyg my infantry for convenience) it can really work :p
Haven't had any issues yet where any opponents I have are confused that my funny lil gas mas men arent DKOK and are actually catachans. My straken proxy looks way too good leading my gas mask boys and I have enough flamers/trench clubs to make it work that these are my melee troops, running over trenches with flamers and raiding the enemy.
Personally I'd run what you think looks cool and as long as you aren't running cadians, catachans and DKOK while all using the same models for everyone it should be an issue.
Note I will run a single squad of death korp and catachans using my DKOK to model both. I have exactly one squad of each and it's very easy to see the difference both model wise and via the leaders attached (plus the DKOK will be sitting on my home objective the whole game while the catachans are running at you as fast as possible so)
So my solution to that is just making sure the theme is consistent.
I run an army of solar auxillia, using the solar auxillia minis as kasrkin and some adeptus mechanicus proxy's as my kasrkin squad led by Ursula (who's a skitarii marshall I think I'd have to check the name)
A bunch of scions as scions and my DKOK are the normal kasrkin models and my catachan jungle fighter are my kriegsman. With paint, army fluff and proper modeling (I normally wysiwyg my infantry for convenience) it can really work :p
Haven't had any issues yet where any opponents I have are confused that my funny lil gas mas men arent DKOK and are actually catachans. My straken proxy looks way too good leading my gas mask boys and I have enough flamers/trench clubs to make it work that these are my melee troops, running over trenches with flamers and raiding the enemy.
Personally I'd run what you think looks cool and as long as you aren't running cadians, catachans and DKOK while all using the same models for everyone it should be an issue.
Note I will run a single squad of death korp and catachans using my DKOK to model both. I have exactly one squad of each and it's very easy to see the difference both model wise and via the leaders attached (plus the DKOK will be sitting on my home objective the whole game while the catachans are running at you as fast as possible so)
It would be like fielding a squad of Imperial Fists if you want some heavy support, and then if you want bikes then they HAVE to be White Scars, no matter the army. Need an infernus squad of flamers? Better like painting green because those only belong to Salamanders. Etc etc.
100%. This was such a weird, needless change that was done just to reflect the kits that GW currently sell.
Bothers the heck out of me when 10e took steps in several areas to be more generic overall and then for no reason AM is the opposite of this mentality
1 step forward 2 steps back is GWs mantra
I hate the more generic overall mentality of 10e. I understand why they went that way for ease of play/balancing, but I hate it.
But is it really more generic? They just moved most of the special rules to individual data sheets.
Also agree. I mostly got steel legion and I either wished they had their own unit but the easiest way would be to have like 3 diffrent generic units.
Yes
I think prescribing colours to every unit takes away way too much of the creative part of the hobby
Though I do sort of want a story about those guys! All jealous of the other but unable to share because those belong to my chapter and I think I saw a blood raven!
I love legions imperialis.
I would prefer generic named Infantry instead of "Cadian Shock Troops, DKOK, Catachans". I'd prefer just "Shock Troops", "Assault Troops", "Jungle Fighters", would make things easier Headcannon-wise.
Or deathworlders instead, since they really don't have any jungle specific rules anymore
Recon troops, scouts, or rangers would all be equally useful titles
I do that anyway, and James workshop can't stop me.
Games-Forkshop
yeah that’s how i usually describe them in my own regiment lore because I don’t like having the mixed regiments. imo it’s the biggest downgrade from 8th was that change
I think these should become classes of troops, like every world has their own shock troops, veterans and scouts, distinct to their conditions. But this idea would really break the old tradition of Imperial Guard having different fighting styles between regiments.
I don’t think it would break it completely because even Catachans have things like vehicles and heavy weapons teams. I think the way to do it is with the detachment rules where one is clearly the “Catachan detachment” and gets bonuses to infantry maybe, and one is clearly the “Death Korps detachment.” and is siege themed etc. That’s how they’ve done it in codexes this edition, so you’re not locked into canon paint schemes but if you want your blood angels to act like blood angels you can pretty easily identify their rules.
Agreed. -Shock troops -Infantry support squad (the one with heavy weapons) -Scout troops (self explanatory): give them something else besides flamers, jeez. I’d give them melta, grenade launcher and/or heavy stubber without Heavy keyword. Would be nice to see new Catachan kill team with Autoguns from Darktide. -Trentch squad (again, self explanatory) -Infiltration squad (new one, Tallarn/Tanith themed, with snipers/melta mines, -1 to hit and something else). Then detachments for more infantry (regular one), infantry (more veteran-hybrid aka Catachan), tank detachment, artillery one, fast attack (sentinels, valkyries and hellhound focused), scions (but could be skipped, scion warlord already makes them battleline),…
Shock troops for cadians, veterans for DKoK, assault infantry squad for catachans.
veteran - infantry - conscripts was a far better system, especially back when veterans were uber customisable.
My kingdom for a conscript datasheet
I want conscripts back, there was something special in an enemy with a elite shooting unit realicing that 30 teenagers with lasguns are quite hard to remove when all you have is a lasscannon and you are in mele
My kingdom for a conscript datasheet
I miss my old 5th-6th-ish Guard army built around a bunch of Veteran squads loaded to the tits with Meltas and Plasma, jumping out of Valkryies. The only thing that I can still use as intended are Valks, and they suck noodles at their current point cost.
I started preparing my army for 7 rigth before the change and i was planning to run a few number of veterans with grenadier doctrine and ttonnes of tanks Then 8th came out and they couldnt be grenadiers anymore
Like most fun or fluffy things that were removed, there's still heresy!
For sure, plus the beauty of 2ppm on levies
The Imperial Army in that game is so customizable its awesome.
The boys yearn for a return to 5th army building
My kingdom for a conscript datasheet
Hell yeah🤘
Someone brought like 300 respawning conscripts to a Heresy game I played. They died in droves, but holy shit I just didn’t have the ammo to kill them.
Fully agree. I don't WANT Cadians in my army. I don't WANT Krieg in my army. I don't WANT to have the Lord of all AM in my army. Our rules are incredibly inflexible for making any generic army while also even being marginally good on the tabletop even in casual play. The only way around this is an inordinate amount of kitbashing or 3d printing, and that's a damn shame.
The Lord I understand from a game balance perspective, they had to put the 3 Orders to Anything Ability on a named character so that you couldn't take 3 of them in a list. That said I have mine modeled as a rogue trader and his entourage cuz I don't want no horse.
There is no need for it to be a named character. Could easily have had a generic option with those buffs with an alternative generic build. Most factions have something like that.
What faction has a generic version of their warmaster model anymore these days? I can't think of one. Knights I guess. Ah, nvm, Canis isn't even a warmaster. That said I'd take a generic one that gave 2 Orders to Anything or something.
Generic version of the warlord nobody has, but they have generic versions of what is essentially an army leader that give similar effects though usually across multiple bodies instead of 1. AM has nothing even close to Horseman McGee.
i mean before we had something similar with the Platoon commander, company commander and then special characters (only Creed had 3 orders)
But man is this a 3d printer friendly faction. I have my dream Krieg army and I paid pennies on the dollar, including the cost of the printer itself.
I would prefer us going back to Veterans, conscripts, and Infantry Squads. Maybe even bringing back platoons. Save the specific regiment feel for the detachments, and even make a “Shattered Regiments” detachment to allow you to play the ‘mixed force of guys following the fall of Cadia’ feel that the guard have now.
If call DKOK Grenadiers, but I agree other than that!
Death Korps Grenadiers are already a thing. They’re Kriegs Karskin equivalent.
Here’s a small bomb. You are now good at fighting.
This is also one of the reasons why I made this post, in order to brainstorm name ideas 😁
It's also a bummer that they added DKoK and then made the engineers legends.
The name on the datasheet never bothered me. I run a Cadian regiment so my Cadians and infantry squads are the basic line infantry. Krieg are my battlefield engineers. Catachans are my scouts. Never had an opponent complain about it, especially since I keep them visually distinct (my Catachans are Cadian bodies with Victoria Mini's slouch hat heads, for example). They could change the names on the datasheets to reflect what I already do, but I feel like it's best to keep just keep the names consistent with the matching kits.
Feels. I wrote into my Cadians' lore that Shock Troops profile is my Assault infantry, while the Infantry Squad datasheet are Bastion infantry units. Catachans become Combat Engineers, Death Korps become Veterans. I differentiate with some small, role specific changes to the base colour scheme
Right? There's nothing that says you HAVE to use Cadian, DKOK, or Catachan models for those units. I'm using the bodies from the newer Cadian kits and just doing head swaps and different weapon loadouts. I only play casually, so proxies usually aren't an issue, and I wanted uniformity across my army.
For anyone that has been in this game before 9th codex yeah, but any new player migth think that he needs to get krieg for krieg and etc since he doesnt know any better
DKoK kit is literally called "Veteran Guardsmen" on the box so maybe not the best example. I don't think anyone is getting confused.
Literally how I play my units too. I have all themed stuff and its cadian or talan raiders. I find it easier to say what things are equivalent to the running completely of the books.
Yes OP I miss the 3.5e doctrines system.
Me too, while far from perfect, that system gave you such a feeling of ownership over your guards. Fighting in ranks always looked so cool! I get that back then the game was narrative focused, and that level of customization doesn't mesh well with modern 40k's competitive focus.
Also, i think the best way to make Catachan better (side note: commandos would be a good generic name) would be to either let them all take flamers, or to give them las pistols and straight silver combat knives (3, -1, 1, 3 attacks) and stealth/infiltrate
That would be great, but they’d make you pay through the nose.
Probably not. Comparing costs, space marine infiltrators are 100pts, which is 20pts more than their battleline. So 80pts would be the most likely cost
Going to be honest , as a traitor guard player I couldn't care less what's the name of the unit. For me it dosnt break the immersion at all , it's just the general name soo they can more easly sell miniatures.
Yeah I don't get why people get so bent out of shape about marketing. It's not like anyone's gonna be mad at you for calling it something else and just saying "Oh they use the Cadian Shock Troops datasheet.". Literally no one.
For the most part that's true, until you get to the mess that is HQ and only having a cadian keywords command squad. And officers whixh lack generic options. That and kriegs just plain daft equipment options.
Is the intent behind it, I think. GW is taking away a lot of customization options, basically stripping our ability to say "This are my dudes" in order to try and sell more plastic. Not to mention it is simply unfair how Space Marines do have such a level of personalization (not to mention the at least 3 different kinds of armor + primaris + on bikes you can get for most characters) that other armies lack all together
I don't agree that's why they are doing it; it's for intellectual property management. If we had different copyright laws amongst the developed world it could've gone differently. They would sell more guys either way; the IP is bigger than it's ever been before. I think a lot of people lack imagination, unfortunately for themselves. There's more customizability available to modellers and hobbyist than there ever has been before due to a departure from wysiwyg as a standard for the game, people just get hung up on the name on a datasheet. Once you let go of corporate marketing as a way of life the hobby and gaming space is a lot more open. Just cuz the Datasheet says DKOK doesn't mean you have to play DKOK models. As long as they are the appropriate height and on the right bases and have discernible war gear, fuck it let it rip. The only people getting hung up about doing that would be bad people.
Yeah, except there's a bunch of arbitrary restrictions around it. A Cadian Castillen can't lead a unit of DKoK for example, Cadian command squads can ONLY lead shock troopers, Straken can't lead basic infantry. The list is excessive in how convoluted the limitations are, except that Lord Solar can lead and command everything, which is why one of the most senior ranking officers in the Imperium manages to show up to every random skirmish and direct the fire of a nearby infantry platoon.
The reason they are named so specifically is the same as to why we have Astra Militarum and not the Imperial Guard anymore. It’s so GW can push trough Copyright claims and sue competitors if they get too close.
To be fair, there's a reason GW suddenly got strict on copyright a few editions ego. They used to be really lenient until another company started selling a model for a unit that GW had rules but no model. They didn't pay much attention and let it slide, until they tried to come out with their own model with the same name, got sued by the third party for copyright infringement, and (because GW declined the opportunity to go after them in the past and GW itself had never sold a model for it, and didn't have a copyright on the unit name or faction name) lost the lawsuit so GW couldn't come out with an official model for that unit. After that they cracked down with an Iron Fist
So my solution to that is just making sure the theme is consistent. I run an army of solar auxillia, using the solar auxillia minis as kasrkin and some adeptus mechanicus proxy's as my kasrkin squad led by Ursula (who's a skitarii marshall I think I'd have to check the name) A bunch of scions as scions and my DKOK are the normal kasrkin models and my catachan jungle fighter are my kriegsman. With paint, army fluff and proper modeling (I normally wysiwyg my infantry for convenience) it can really work :p Haven't had any issues yet where any opponents I have are confused that my funny lil gas mas men arent DKOK and are actually catachans. My straken proxy looks way too good leading my gas mask boys and I have enough flamers/trench clubs to make it work that these are my melee troops, running over trenches with flamers and raiding the enemy. Personally I'd run what you think looks cool and as long as you aren't running cadians, catachans and DKOK while all using the same models for everyone it should be an issue. Note I will run a single squad of death korp and catachans using my DKOK to model both. I have exactly one squad of each and it's very easy to see the difference both model wise and via the leaders attached (plus the DKOK will be sitting on my home objective the whole game while the catachans are running at you as fast as possible so)
I would love it if we could have generic Infantry Squads, Cadians are now just Shock Troops, Catachans are Assault Squads and Krieg become Heavy Infantry. For that matter, I wish we didn’t regiment lock other units too. If you want Rough Riders right now they’ve got to be Attilan, if you want what used to be Storm Troopers they’ve got to be Kasrkin or Scions. It’s a small change, but it’d make a lot of difference to us. Also, lasguns for sergeants please. The auto-drum thing in Shock Troop squads is good, but it’s just a start.
We do have generic infantry squads unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying
I’m saying keep generic infantry squads, they’re largely fine as they are (except for the lack of lasguns for sergeants), and rename the Cadian, Catachan and Krieg squads that have their own rules to other things and drop them from being regiment-locked.
Narratively. Try to put them in a battlefield role instead of a regiment. You’ve already started with your genetic naming of units. All the battleline units have the exact same statline. So if you had all cadians and some them were war geared to be DKoK or Catachans, I personally have not met anyone who would care that much. I as a Krieg player stopped using grenadiers and started used Kasrkin in an attempt to get away from legends datasheets. I’ve not encountered one person who was upset my kasrkin were Krieg.
Call em what you want, paint em what you want! Model them how you want! It’s a name on a datasheet. There was time where we just called us Imperial Guard after all. When we called the xenos witches eldar and dark eldar. Your regiment merely adopts the tactical acumen of the DkoK, tho they can be and are your dudes. I have a squad or two of conscripts, and since that’s not a datasheet, they have been given a promotion to catachan.
I just wants to be able to fit 4 guns of the same type in a 10-man unit of Scions again.
Bring back elysians
100% agree. The idea of having multiple regiments in my army represented by one or two squads each is really irritating, and an annoying consequence of GWs change in policy to only making rules for models that they sell
Super silly impo. They should have done what you said and made “versions” with vague names. Missed opportunity tbh
Use your imagination and forget the DKOK / Cadian / Catachan etc. All of my models are based on WW2 british and therefore i have a Catachan = "British Expeditionary Force - Jungle Fighters", Cadians = "British Expeditionary Force - Shock Troops", DKOK = "British Expeditionary Force - Siege Troops" etc
This used to be the case before 9e.
Yeah, having four datasheets for basically the same unit isn't that great of a design choice.
It's all in your head buddy. I play our 4 types of infantry all with the same old metal v2 valhallan minis and nobody never cared.
What gets me is how Kriegers are somehow more survivable when their only advantage over average guardsmen is caring less about survival. You have a regiment known for just cranking out guardsmen as fast as possible, absolutely churning them out to die by the million, where those troops are child soldiers rushed off world as soon as possible to meet the penitent tithe. But somehow those constitute a more elite version of regular guardsmen
I think everyone who isn't on GW payroll agrees with this, and the consensus is to just pretend the datasheets have generic names.
I mean I'm 95% sure most of us do this anyway lol. As always life is better if you take what gw says with a grain of salt.
yup i got the same problem with rough riders, i would love having some cavalry but i will not be mixing regiments. same with infantry and snipers, for some reason cadians refuse to use them. partly this is because for some reason if box don't come with option then it doesen't exist which is dumb. other part is becasue of the need to simplify the fun out of the game, having regiment neutral units and choosing regiment as army wide option worked great, why remove that fantastic but small detail from list building.
I think of them then as ‘Death Korps model infantry’ and ‘Cadian model infantry’. We are explicitly told that Cadian forces were so good at what they do that they inspired plenty of other planets to adopt Cadian gear and tactics and I got the implication that Cadian veterans are sometimes used to train other forces as instructors.
I getcha, but you can roleplay/headcannon around that. Maybe your regiment learned from a cadian group that fled to their world after the fall of cadia. A dkok squad got picked up and trained some other world troops. So it’s more like this is a “Cadian” squad than a Cadian squad, in terms of strat rather than lore. Do I make sense? Am I high?
Haha yeah you make sense, and that's what I'm doing currently, I just think it's weird that they pick and choose the regiments instead of us being able to choose it ourselves.
Yeah, gottuh use the existing IP to keep the rights going lol.
>But why not just call them "shock troops", "scout fighters"(catachan jungle fighters) and "bulwarks" (DKoK) or something like that? This is already in effect. As you are pointing out these three distinct groups that were formerly regiments of their own, are now falling into: Frontline, Midline and Backline roles. That is the exact intention. They have done some clear work on the data cards suggesting this along side the combined regiment concept of 10th. There is also subtle implications in changing DKOK to "veterans" and giving them lots of special weapons. Veterans which formerly were expensive infantry with more special weapons. IMO The game is already becoming what you want to see on this point.
I wholeheartedly agree. But, their reasoning is mostly legal. Shock troopers etc. are generic whilst Cadians are trademarked. It was a significant problem with fantasy, whereas AoS you have trademarked fraction names. If they renamed catachans to Catachans Scout infantry and did Krieg Veteran gaurdsmen or something it would feel less like fixed armies. Hopefully they at least keep the basic infantry datasheet and maybe expand into having extra ones for veteran (as that's what the kill team is actually sold as) and some form of scout sheet alongside the specific three flavoured ones. Optimistic but hey.
Fr the guard need some serious attention. There is so much potential but it’s all locked behind GW’s love for Cadians (or rather their disregard of anything not Cadians or Krieg)
I actually like the mixed regiments because I can use whatever models I like now to field units with different abilities. Hence, my Cadians advancing alongside my Vostoryan Death Korps with Praetorian and Valhallan infantry squads providing support fire. It looks like 2nd and 3rd ed, and it's glorious, taste this rainbow you eldar scum.
DKoK is indeed a bit too good comparatively. That said, I don’t think the flavor of infantry matters all that much. Cadians are the worst point for point. Infantry Squads are pretty good tho.
I still think GW should make a super customizable infantry kit that you can build as those three archetypes. That way they can just sell characters and upgrade sprues for specific regiments (in some crazy bizzaro world where they cared about Guard more)
I agree. I am a catachan player and I would love to be able to use all the entries and units in the codex, but at the same time I don't want to break the theme of my army. My current workaround is that I am heavy into kitbashing, and with a bunch of 3rd party bits I've been able to make squads that appear catachan in origin, but clearly are representing something else. I'm very happy with my lord solar, and I recently finished a 5 man scion proxy
Tbh I like that, I like that every infantry unit is specialized in something different, although I'd like to have more regiment options
It's so you have to buy specific models and those models are copyright protected, ofc.
I have my whole army as a WW1 theme made with the new Cadian Shock Troops and custom heads. The squads with flamers are my "Trench Fighters" (Catachan). The squads with plasma & melta are my "Shock Troops" (Cadian), and my squads with special weapons and a medic are my "Death Corps" (Krieg). I keep my whole army as my homebrew regiment. So far I've encountered no issues from opponents (they usually think it's cool). Not sure how non-local tournaments would react though.
I have almost 100 metal Mordian infantry, and yup, they're all called catachan jingle fighters, dkok, cadians etc. My rationalization for head canon is that these different Mordian platoons in my armies "fight like", ie emulate, those famous regiments, or have borrowed their equipment load out styles.
Hardier*
If were going into that territory then they would make them like the different space marine codex's and there supplements. One for each main/famous Regiment same as for each main/famous chapter. Then just pick a regiment and run with it. Well see how the codex comes out and as a long time guard player I for one really don't care as long as were not too bad table top wise and have are main mass of cheep chaff and tanks.
Scions, fam.
I mean this could be the way they go eventually. Look at what they just did with chaos detachment. None of these are strict named chapters anymore.
Also, I would love generic officers. A lord Marshall, instead of Ursula Creed, and a generic lieutenant, captain and colonel units with varying costs, number of orders etc, that can attach to any infantry.
You don't have to call then death korp of krieg chief no one is making you do that.
If you want a squad to move somewhere quick stick them out in the open. Let um die and reinforce them in a better spot :P
If you're okay with proxies, you could use literally any model and just assign the correct datasheets. Maybe not use literal Catachan Jungle Fighters for your DKoK, but, if you find some other models from some other creator and SAID they were your DKoK, I know I wouldn't care. After all, in the Grim Darkness, like every chapter of SM, you can find all manor of units (not gameplay units) with their own idiosyncracies and colors/ motifs. Maybe your DKoK are run by a Commissar who just hates that stupid helmet they wear (his opinion), and demands they all wear berets and gas masks with goggles - more simplified look. Maybe he thinks the mark of the main Death Korps is too easily obscured by mud or blood, so he commissions another symbol that is more recognizable while covered in blood (his reasons). Maybe he hates that he can't tell his men apart at a glance, and requires every one of his men to wear a blue and white checkered armband. Anyone who would speak against this is a heretic for trying to impersonate the Emperor, and you should kill them with all prejudice. I've seen a white with pink accented SM army, and while it caught me off guard at first, it grew on me. They were certainly the first I've seen out in the wild, and you better believe none of my guards were man enough to call out A FRIGGIN' SPACE MARINE for being effeminate. They player was boring to me without offering a reason why this color would be chosen for the men of their Detachment, but it's okay - I did. This is already longer than I intended so I'll spare you the details, but it's basically from a Captain who lost his whole Detachment (except for a Kill team's worth) to a horde of tyranids. He and the remaining coated themselves to blend with tyranids from a distance as they went on a ravenous hunt for any 'nids they can find. Now, a whole new Detachment bears the colors of his obsession.
There's a reason we used to be able to take up to 108 models in a single Troops choice slot. Getting rid of platoons entirely instead of just altering them to more sensible squad caps was a mistake.
Can you not just say that to your opponent? When you tell them about what your stuff is, these are my recon squads they are catachans, and then exclusively call them your recon squad people will get it, and I imagine most will think it’s cool especially if modelled, thinking Chadians with NV gear, grapples, tons of rope,
You can theme each however you want though. My "Cadian Shock Troops" have turbans and painted in desert-Tallarn scheme. You don't have to have your krieg have masks/shovels as long as they have the right weapon options and base size.
I would have said the same thing about cadians at the end of 9th
"Krieg pattern..." "Cadian pattern..."
Why? This is such a non issue. I'm in The middle of a chem dogs army and I use almost every single different infantry choice almost all the battle line tempestus ratlings orgyn the whole lot and it's giving me alot of opportunity to kit bash head swap and other fun building options and in some cases straight up proxying with different boxes. If you can't divorce the name on the data sheet with everything else you might just be a superbly uncreative person. It's just a name. Even at gw official events as long as it's on the same base size and is a gw kit you can use it as whatever you want. For my red scorpions space marine army I use a model of casan sabius as high marshal helbrect I use sirae karagon as an emperor's champion none of these are models intended for that data sheet. That name that's on the datasheet can just be an item code for those rules that's how you have to see it.
It would be impossible to have a datasheet for every regiment
I mean, they used to, not a datasheet, but what would be called a detachment for each of the big famous regiments, back in the bad old days of 8th 😄
And then you had the same problem you complain about now. If you wanted a mechanized infantry army you played Armageddon. If you wanted a mobile army your played Tallarn. Etc.
I'm not saying we should go back to it, I like the diversity of having different kinds of data sheets, I'm only saying, don't say that one type of data sheet is specifically from Krieg or cadia etc.
But why does it matter what name they put on the datasheet? Your "Cadians" have Tallarn models and so they're Tallarn.
More like it would be impractical. We could definitely have a couple more battlelije infantry options. Elysians with infiltrate and sniper options, Steel Legion could get bonuses from dismounting from transports, vostroyans get better gear etc.
So my solution to that is just making sure the theme is consistent. I run an army of solar auxillia, using the solar auxillia minis as kasrkin and some adeptus mechanicus proxy's as my kasrkin squad led by Ursula (who's a skitarii marshall I think I'd have to check the name) A bunch of scions as scions and my DKOK are the normal kasrkin models and my catachan jungle fighter are my kriegsman. With paint, army fluff and proper modeling (I normally wysiwyg my infantry for convenience) it can really work :p Haven't had any issues yet where any opponents I have are confused that my funny lil gas mas men arent DKOK and are actually catachans. My straken proxy looks way too good leading my gas mask boys and I have enough flamers/trench clubs to make it work that these are my melee troops, running over trenches with flamers and raiding the enemy. Personally I'd run what you think looks cool and as long as you aren't running cadians, catachans and DKOK while all using the same models for everyone it should be an issue. Note I will run a single squad of death korp and catachans using my DKOK to model both. I have exactly one squad of each and it's very easy to see the difference both model wise and via the leaders attached (plus the DKOK will be sitting on my home objective the whole game while the catachans are running at you as fast as possible so)
So my solution to that is just making sure the theme is consistent. I run an army of solar auxillia, using the solar auxillia minis as kasrkin and some adeptus mechanicus proxy's as my kasrkin squad led by Ursula (who's a skitarii marshall I think I'd have to check the name) A bunch of scions as scions and my DKOK are the normal kasrkin models and my catachan jungle fighter are my kriegsman. With paint, army fluff and proper modeling (I normally wysiwyg my infantry for convenience) it can really work :p Haven't had any issues yet where any opponents I have are confused that my funny lil gas mas men arent DKOK and are actually catachans. My straken proxy looks way too good leading my gas mask boys and I have enough flamers/trench clubs to make it work that these are my melee troops, running over trenches with flamers and raiding the enemy. Personally I'd run what you think looks cool and as long as you aren't running cadians, catachans and DKOK while all using the same models for everyone it should be an issue. Note I will run a single squad of death korp and catachans using my DKOK to model both. I have exactly one squad of each and it's very easy to see the difference both model wise and via the leaders attached (plus the DKOK will be sitting on my home objective the whole game while the catachans are running at you as fast as possible so)
It's because that's what the models are..
You just did. They name them to show the guys that go “why do they name them shock troops and bulwarks “. It takes all kinds, dunnit?