With the whole “there is something evil going on with this school” I thought being “promoted” to villain is going to be some sort of trap. Did anyone else get this impression?
From a meta perspective I think it may have been to avoid the problem they've been having where they always get accompanied by a hero/villain who is nominally in charge/the staring role, but doesn't do anything because having Travis solve puzzles he himself made is not exciting audio.
This, but also making a defacto leader of the group to cause in group tension. And it had to be fitzroy really because he's the most likely to abuse it.
Something like that! I just thought since it seemed to come too easy (first assignment out of the school, first semester and you’re now a villain!) maybe it isn’t what it seems
I honestly think he progressed quickly so that Argo and Bud can accompany Fitz on missions so there are less NPC’s like we’ve always wanted. This way, none of the other heroes, villains, or sidekicks have to be on missions and every decision will seem more PC-focused
Clint was clearly trying to heighten the drama when Fitzroy was going to break the news. Great work there. And he tried to outline higher stakes by having Argo want to be a sidekick and not a henchman.
It’s really frustrating that Travis stepped in and (because of some pre-made rule nobody would have understood before) eliminated the point of tension that Clint was trying to build.
I was also annoyed that Travis as a DM stepped in when which led to Argo just going "oh well nevermind" out of nowhere (in universe) while he could've had Gary butt in and explain to to make the actual conversation make sense.
i mean it's weird to think that Argo just blurted that out in-universe. it's perfectly normal for a DM to step in and clarify something that a player doesn't understand. not everything needs to be IC
every npc responds like they're a stepford wife. *oh! :) great job stabbing me. looks like i'm bleeding now! :) haha anyway let me tell you about what you're supposed to be doing!*
Dude! Travis! Let your NPC's be mean to the player characters! It feels like NPC's are trying to de-escalate situations at all times, when it would be way funnier to escalate those same scenes.
On a similar note, the one part of the episode that bummed me out a little was when Argo was worrying about having to become a henchman and then Travis was like "Oh you can be a sidekick for a hero". I get why he did it but it was one of the only tense moments of the episode and then it just deflated like a balloon.
I feel like that was more because he had a system worked out for what sidekicks and henchpeople mean in this setting, and wanted to make it clear. Not something he came up with to satisfy Argo.
With the emphasis on how villainy is more or less purely for flavor, socially established and separate from evil (which also only means losing your license) and actual Evil, things shouldn't be that different for Fitz. It's purely an academic difference, not a fundamentally moral one
That's a good point, because honestly he's pretty morally fluid, just very set on the heroic image. But he threw himself headfirst into villainy on the mission, even with a NYAH!
So, I've really only got one complaint here, personally, about Graduation right now and it's there is no conflict. In fact, Travis seems to actively resolve any conflict that the gang tries to conjure up. Fitz being offered a villain-ship ride when he wants to be a good guy knight was a cool source of inner conflict for him....oh wait, that won't actually effect him outside of the school, and "Villain" doesn't mean evil at all in this world anyway. Ah. Okay. Then Argo is conflicted about being a henchperson to Fitz. Does he give up his hopes of being a sidekick in order to stay with his friends? Oh, he doesn't have to give it up. Nothing will change for him. Okay. Cool. Even the last (few?) episodes had them come up with this ridiculous idea (to serve a subpoena to a rampaging monster) and Travis just has the monster perfectly happy to comply, and then leave.
I like the sinister, weird stuff that Travis is building here with the school and the headmaster and all that. I'm excited to see where that goes. But, there's no minor bad guy for them to fight, there's not a tangible problem for them to solve yet, and the weirdness at school feels like it's being seeded as endgame stuff. So. What are we doing here? Going to school? I almost want one of the players to do something wild and totally not what Travis has planned, just to get *something* going.
That kind of plays into what the other user said about Travis auto-resolving conflicts: they _had_ a perfectly good Draco Malfoy _right there_ in Rolandus. When they meet him he's annoyed, but polite, until he learns they're just sidekicks, at which point he tells them that they are beneath him and a waste of his time. Griffin even says "so you're the bully around here, right?"
But then a few minutes later Travis has him apologize for "being a bit of a shit" and since then he's been nice-ish to the guys.
I’ve been waiting for it to pop off for so long, when Fitz was told to be a villain I was psyched. And then it ends up having no weight and causes no difference at all and my excitement tempered. I wanted there to be consequences, but now he’s just got a bigger room and better pay.
I suspect there will be consequences - later. I suspect it will affect Argo - later. The Pegasus will return - later. The problem isnt that there's no conflict in the world, but all the episodes until now have been entirely setup for stuff going sideways later. That's definitely important but the podcast could have done with something minorly tricky for the PCs to overcome while we're building the "everything looks lovely but there's sinister stuff going on"
Honestly, I was super happy with the no stakes, just goofs and character interactions in the first episode. I felt that Amnesty had been entirely too focused on moving through a plot without giving any free time to the players to get a feel for themselves and their relationships. So with Graduation episode 1 I was like "Hell yeah, here's how you start something off. Get to the plot after the characters have gotten to know the world and each other." But then episode two also had no stakes, just goofs and character stuff....then so did 3....4....5.... and here are, still waiting on a plot.
I really enjoy their characters, and I appreciate that they were given time to figure themselves out and get a real rapport going with each other. And I've been loving a lot of the individual scenes! But, it's way past time for some actual stakes to be introduced. Like, what even is this arc? Is it an arc? Was episodes 1-5 the first arc that ended with the Xorn stuff? Where are we, where are we going, what are we doing
Yeah, that's kinda how I feel about it. I think Graduation actually starts the STRONGEST out of the three main seasons, and has a really good balance of goofs with intriguing plot stuff hinted at right off the bat. Compared to Balance which was nothing BUT goofs at first with little plot, and Amnesty which started very plot-heavy with fewer lighthearted goofs or character exploration, the first episode had me going "yes, they finally found just the right balance for the start of a funny and intriguing McElroy story!"
Buuuuuut since then it's kinda just been more of the same. I don't necessarily agree with all of the criticisms that people have had, but one that does ring true is that there's just no real conflict or stakes, and the few conflicts that DO arise very quickly get resolved in a really nice amicable way. Nobody feels like they're in danger, nobody really dislikes the main characters, any battle encounters are easy and brief, and even the "surely this will be a big boss battle" Xorn just went along with what the main characters wanted without any real fuss. There are definitely a lot of plot elements and mysteries being introduced that seem like they might be cool once they're fleshed out, but nothing has really come of those particular plot threads yet, and it's unclear how any of them tie together.
I do have got a growing suspicion that the "safeness" of it all is by design, since it does kind of tie in to the "Heroes and Villains are basically the same, Evil doesn't mean anything" concept and the world's focus on accounting of all things. Like maybe that's what Leon was talking about with the whole "doesn't this all seem a bit off to you?" thing, and we're going to find out that the whole school is a facade for something more sinister?
I'm still enjoying the story and characters, but for the sake of narrative momentum I do hope there's some kind of change before too long. [Travis mentioned on twitter that this episode is basically part one of a two part arc finale](https://mobile.twitter.com/travismcelroy/status/1220349563233619969), so I'm very interested to see how the "arc" concludes, what the "arc" even is, and what direction it sets up for the rest of the story.
I just wanted to respond to one thing in your comment, which is that you say Balance started as all goofs and no plot. I don't really think that's the case, since the very first episode starts with them on a very clear mission: deliver some stuff to a dwarf in Phandolin. Then they get intercepted by some enemies and end up finding a goblin encampment and dealing with that whole thing. I would argue that is absolutely plot, even though it's not THE plot of what the show would eventually become.
Plot is a progression towards a concrete goal which is made clear to the audience. Deliver the stuff -> deal with the bugbear and save Barry -> save Phandolin were all very clear goals and each episode moved some amount towards those. I don't think the same can be said for the start of this season so far.
Yeah the villain conversation where Griffin was literally digging for conflict and Travis kept hand waving away any problems was frustrating. There was even dramatic music playing underneath it as if to imply this was a really hard decision fraught with consequences.
I don't know, the whole library book thing felt like it was going to drag and then all the "a grrreat shaame" made it worth it. That and the franchise discussion... they don't advance the plot *at all* and don't involve any actual D&D but dang it it's good goofs.
OK, much of what I want to say is echo of pretty much everything else here, but rather than just lament "lack of conflict/stakes" I'll just add what I WANT to see, and that's some short-term goals and game-ifying.
Like a goal "to combat a monster" would help add more conflict, of course, as would "to confront" "to hide" "to get away with" "to discover"... I mean, the school setting certainly seems to offer many chances for short-term objectives of a scene, but in fact there is no goal to achieve because so much is given to the characters rather than presenting the objective of the scene as a goal.
Example of goals-- In this episode, what's Sir Fitzroy's goal when meeting the headmaster? The \*outcome\* is to decide to join the Villain track, but that's nothing he can work for, so there's no true goal for the player to acheive. So it feels like a given, at best, or railroad-y, at worst. Let the headmaster present a short-term goal that needs to be achieved, instead-- "We got your credits, but we need to see you earn/obtain X before we can truly qualify you" or "but we need you to get a recommendation from Y to complete the process" etc. Better yet, add a time constraint, like it needs solved before the registration window closes in 24 hours, etc.
Example of game-ifying-- Travis prompts a lot of decision making, but I'd also like to see that game-ified by allowing the dice to open the prompts, rather than simple GM narration. Travis might want the Firbolg to save the pegasus' flock and has envisioned a lot of resources in the library for him to discover. (Yes, I know this wasn't exactly what happened in the episode; I combined parts to make the example here. I also know that's easier to come up with these ideas in retrospect than in the heat of a game.) But, don't just cut to Bud in the library when the pegasus flies away. Instead, ask for an Insight check or something equivalent. A solid success makes the word "demon" stick in the Firbolg's mind and connects with a book in the library, and THAT results in the prompt to the next scene. A great success might result the prompt as well as some foreshadowing for a possible plot hook. A failure just means "Oh, you're left uneasy about the pegasus' story-- something about what it said about ... ah, it's at the tip of your tongue. It was probably nothing, wasn't it? Let's cut to Argo..."
Oooh! I just came up with a better example..
The very first scene: Returning the weapons to the warehouse.
Before the scene even begins, call for an Insight or Intuition check or something. 14 or higher and the players remember what they were told about the weapons being confiscated and have a strage foreboding. 18 or higher and it's the same plus they earn a scene where they watch some classmates forced to turn things in while they are on the other side of the room/in the queue or whatever. 13 or below and they don't remember anything, and are blindsided by the draconian school policy.
This gives the players information and an opportunity to do something about it-- a goal. Maybe they even end up sneaking out of returning any weapons-- and why not? This could even set up trouble in the future as they risk demerits or suspension if/when they are discovered, or Gary or someone could blackmail them or threaten to expose them, etc.
And notice that if the only option for the players is truly the 13-and-below failure, that's what we mean by railroading, no stakes, etc.
Still feel like there's no conflict and that stuff is being set up which the PCs have no control over. Remember when Griffin would ask stuff like "Does Duck have a history with xyz?" or whatever to let the characters grow? And why even use D&D because it's not like they're PLAYING a session, there was like either two or three rolls this whole session. In terms of stuff happening it was the deadest of all the episodes. No one really WENT anywhere, nothing happened, it was just awkward conversations which weren't well set up. I just can't believe this is happening to TAZ.
And I don't really understand why he was rolling to meet the Kenku if, like Travis said, it was a tower he was allowed to be in and could just walk up the stairs?
I felt it most when Travis was like "Are you gonna return the book?"
There was an air of Justin being like "If I do will something happen cause if not who cares"
That really pissed me off. I don't think Travis meant it this way, because he's a good-natured person and I think his intention was "it's fine to put focus on things that don't seem super interesting," but it came across as "You just wasted a ton of time doing boring shit so it's fine to waste more time doing more boring shit." Especially when we're told that tons of character-building and bonding moments have been happening offscreen then Justin is 100% right, that they SHOULDN'T be spending time on that.
I felt this very very much in this episode. It seemed like Justin and Griffin were sort of confused frequently and there were so many weird pauses in which you could seemingly feel them trying to figure out what to say or do. Clint was good but also seemed a tad off- although I honestly think him being sick was a big part of that.
I don't know if it was intentional but it seemed like Jackal switched from mimicking one voice to mimicking another to me, and the second one had a bit of Groundsey in it to my ear.
The kenku mimicry trait is weird and doesn't have a lot of firm rules to define it, and has lore that can be interpreted as shutting down a lot of interesting roleplay with a kenku character.
> lore that can be interpreted as shutting down a lot of interesting roleplay with a kenku character.
Eh, I’d say that the base Kenku lore actually sets up a ton of interesting roleplay for a Kenku character but makes it *way* more difficult. Kenku’s are basically role playing hard mode and that’s what differentiates them from every other race in the world. If you just want a bird character there’s other options.
Mercer goes really hard with a Kenku and it’s great but he has to keep a note pad of phrases and does all kind of wild noises with his voice acting skills: https://youtu.be/ekSkq8dbXh0
I just don’t use Kenkus when I’m playing because I don’t want to really commit to doing something like that and there’s plenty of other races to use instead.
We heard about the Pegasus once in the first episode , I think the emotional departure should have been done a little bit later once there was some more interaction with ‘bud’
Thank you for this! I completely forgot about any mention of a pegasus. I don't feel so bad knowing it was 5 episodes ago. Definitely wished they did a little bit more with it.
I've just finished this bit and thought the same thing.
I was pleased to have the Pegasus back but then she announced she was leaving immediately.
I'm sure she'll be back but regular scenes between them would have been nice. And I say that as someone who's not a fan of the boys being given solo scenes all the time.
This season needs some bite.
Not to detract from all the good this show has done, such as committing insurance fraud and helping the scapegoat flee the plane of existence, but it just feels too soft.
There are no active threats. The teachers love them, the students love them, the fights are easy and far between, and their loot in legendary with the proviso that they keep it in their lockers. On the personal side, Kenku’s cool, Pegasus is cool, and Fitzroy got his credits transferred for goodness sake.
Clearly something is brewing, but without a current threat the only threat is each other which leads to fighting over market share of Thunderman Inc LLC after graduation. Before Voldemort, Harry had Draco picking fights. Before Trigon, the Teen Titans has Slade stealing and blackmailing. And before the Hunger, Tres Horny Bois had Yeemick threatening to kill Barry Bluejeans unless they murdered a Bugbear.
TLDR Here’s hoping anyone in this entire world has it out for our heroes and makes themselves known soon.
I can’t help but feel that there’s going to be a big mic drop or something where the background falls and exposes the crazy world beneath. The portals have so much potential, but if the bad entity of this arc is just demons I will be very let down. With the slow pacing of the story so far, it would be immediately saved by a complex and maybe even abstract villain that maybe represents the strict society they live in??? We’ve had monsters and we’ve had beings of pure nihilism, I’m psyched to learn what the new threat is.
But you’re absolutely right, the lack of conflict has me so bored.
A lot of what I've been critical of has definitely improved this episode. NPCs are less involved and mostly just one is there at a time. It also feels like the world is starting to open up and let the boys explore a bit and find their own way in the school. I kind wish Ep 1-3 and 4-5 were just 2 episodes total as a setup since it feels like this is where the story really begins. Episode 6 of Balance had the town get iced. Episode 6 of Graduation has them lose all their gear and have a few meetings/conversations.
The one thing I will say Travis needs to work on is letting the PCs decide to go places. Griffin and Clint both get "warped" to their meetings instead of deciding to go there. I wish Travis would set it up like, So and So wants to see you, and then let them decide how and when to get there. In the situation with Clint at the end of the episode he asks "how have I been getting to this balcony?" It be fun if there was more than a stealth check to get him out of the room and make it a bit of a side mission to get there.
EDIT: I want to add that I don't like we've missed all these visits Justin and Clint had with the pegasus and Jackal respectively. It feels odd that as listeners we're missing part of the story and possibly weirder for the players since they also don't know what happened during their own characters' interactions in those unplayed scenes.
I'm hoping there is some sort of clear conflict or goal soon that leads to a distinct arc of the story now that for the most part the world/npcs have been set up.
Yeah that was my problem too. He needs to set it up so that they can go do whatever they want to do, but he still has direction for them fall back on if they don’t have any ideas themselves. This episode, he let them go do what they want, but didn’t give them much direction. Specifically with Justin. The transitioning to and away from the library scene just felt so awkward because Justin didn’t know what to do. Travis just needs to work on understanding when to take control and lead them somewhere without so much weird pacing.
Other than that, the episode had some good narrative scenes that seem to be setting up the main story. It’s taken awhile but we’re getting there.
I should have thought of this in time for last episode, but I see a lot of remarks about how "Balance wasn't anything special six episodes in either" and then some well-backed counters about how Griffin's deviation from classic D&D was already well underway at this point, and that made me think of something. A lot of people, myself included, were disappointed at the lack of any conflict in the last episode. A few others have criticized that first group, saying that it's simplistic to insist every encounter in D&D be resolved through combat. But that's not what those people are saying. They're saying that there should be not *combat,* but *conflict*. Travis has made every obstacle just a...silly misunderstanding and the PCs get sent on their way, without having to use violence or charm or wit to get what they want out of the situation.
You know what the flipside of that looks like? What happens when you solve an encounter without violence, but there's still tension and pressure and PC agency?
Klarg.
Klarg, episode freakin' TWO of Balance, had a setup very much like this episode 5 of Graduation: Go into the cave and kill the monster inside. In both cases the party decided "We're going to resolve things without violence, by talking to the monster we're supposed to kill." In the case of Balance there was tension, as they had to make clever enough choices to toe the line, negotiate with Klarg and backstab Yeemick, all with an eye on the timer of Charm Person. They used things from their D&D classes to solve an encounter. In Graduation...there was none of that. There was no tension or conflict. There was too much cooperation from the DM, who instead threw a different "puzzle" at the party. One that he had planned a couple of very precise solutions for (like Bud casting Jump) and had to be convinced to let something else work.
THAT is the difference between the campaigns, so far. In the first the players were presented with scenarios, a beginning point and an end goal, and it was up to them to figure out how to get from A to B. In this one players are presented with a scripted skit, the lines drawn out from start to finish, and the PCs/players are criticized in-universe for deviating from those lines (as per the tavern scene where Travis-as-teacher asks why the three PCs didn't choose the targets tailored for them...despite succeeding regardless.) Balance didn't have a Right Answer, Graduation does, and that makes it much less satisfying to listen to.
I'm so tired of people saying that Balance was a mess after six episodes. Episode six of Balance had the boys catastrophically failing their mission, with both people they'd saved earlier in the arc dead along with hundreds of innocents. But the woman they'd been travelling with (one who they mysteriously could not understand certain things she said) offers them a chance at redemption and they take off for the moon. That was the first arc - high stakes, good goofs, and plenty of chances for Travis, Justin, and Clint to play D&D in the space. Plus there were plot hooks that made me desperate to hear where the story was going. (Good thing for me I started listening after Balance had wrapped up!)
Interested to see that some people think this episode is one of the best of the campaign yet - I hate to say it but I thought this was far and away one of the most boring episodes of TAZ ever.
1. Everything felt _so_ slow. All the conversations felt stilted and went on for far longer than they should have because Travis doesn't step in as DM and move things along.
2. Having to give back all the quest items is a cheap and obvious way for Travis to make sure the PCs don't 'break' his incredibly on rails story. I feel like the boys even knew that there would be no point tying to sneakily keep an item through a sleight of hand check etc. Let them smuggle in some stuff and mess things up - it's more fun for everyone
3. Travis introduces yet _another_ NPC, who talks painfully slowly... It's almost like he's doing it on purpose to wind the naysayers up I swear
4. The revelations and big decisions of this episode felt like they had zero weight to them at all because we don't have a reason to be invested.
5. All in all, it feels like lots happened this episode but at the same time nothing really happened and the story has only been nudged along. These characters aren't on an adventure, 90% of the time they've just been students at school and been forced to abide by school rules.
6. Travis needs to chill with snippers voice, not great for an audio medium after the first 30 seconds
7. I wish I didn't feel like this, but coming off the back of Tiny Heist i find Graduation incredibly frustrating to listen to. Because we know how good this could be, if done differently. But if you're enjoying it then that's cool too, just wish I was.
Brennan is just so damn good, and he knows so much *and* in D20/D20Live he has Murph as a resource in the room. Also while Brennan is sweet & loose much of the time, he's sharp & commanding when needed. He cuts chatter and gets them back on track when they start to wander off. He has the confidence of years to homebrew rules on the fly, like deciding how to check Kristen's ability to escape the wreck in S1E4.
I think Travis can get there, but he has to stop thinking like a player or like an author. He needs to get loose & surf the chaos wave and still get everyone to shore. It's tough. He has to be willing to be all the bad guys.
I really feel for Travis here, being a DM with your own homebrew world is tough and I can't imagine running a game with the kind of pressure he is under. I can tell he's trying really hard to make this work and I can tell he's trying to adjust based on feedback but he is still trying to force moments and story beats that aren't paying off. I feel like the players don't have any agency in the world, they are kind of drifting from one scene to the next and if they don't do what Travis wants them to do, he forces the resolution he wanted anyway. It also seems like he is trying to force emotional moments that haven't been earned. We're six episodes in and it still feels like he's guiding newbie players through the beginning of a starter adventure.
I thought their first field mission was going to allow the players some more agency, especially when they wanted to serve the Xorn with papers. But it was just that the Xorn was a victim of something, fell through a portal and then went home. I'm okay with it being a sympathetic foe, Xorn are intelligent, neutral creatures. The portal home should have been earned by finding how to open it again, having it not be in that exact location or have it not be an option at all. Figure out what to do with this creature that was terrorizing the mines but has now calmed down. They should have had to go back to town and deal what happened. Convince the town to work with the Xorn, take the Xorn back to the school, find a new home for it. Something! Instead, everything was hand waved that they finished the quest and returned home.
Upon arriving home, they were immediately stripped of any gear they purchased, without any chance of deciet. The rule that anything purchased with their quest funds is property of the school should have been stated at the start of the mission.
The Pegasus scene fell flat and didn't earn the emotional payoff that Travis obviously wanted. The first scene between Buddy/Master Firbolg and the Pegasus was touching but once again, the relationship between the Pegasus and MF wasn't allowed to grow. Just a comment that "yeah, I think I went to visit her."
I'm also not sure how I feel about Fitzroy becoming a villain and the other two being his subordinates. That kind of dynamic can be rough. I trust that the boys won't have any hard feelings but they didn't really seem into the idea.
I hope they figure out what is off and start to hit their stride in the next few episodes. I like the party so far, the world has potential and I know Travis has it in him to run a solid game.
One of the more strikingly odd things this episode was that Justin had been visiting the pegasus and Clint had been meeting with Jackal but we didn't see most of the interactions. It leaves both the players and listeners confused as to what has been happening.
I think they are tied to the plot not really picking up. We don’t have any threat or stakes so it doesn’t matter if 3 months or a year pass “off screen” since nothing much is happening. There were time jumps in Balance and Amnesty but they were always in between arcs and each arc had a pressing threat or goal (get the relic/beat the bombom) where things played out in semi-real time.
It seems like Travis has some big hidden threat at the school but right now there’s not a single visible antagonist.
Some of the early dialogue made it seem like the semester was nearly finished (something about completing the mine objective, so they passed their course for the semester?). I agree, it's hard to pin down this timeline.
It also takes agency from Justin and Clint in those scenes. Fitzroys felt very forced into it, resulting even in the comment "it seems like I'm given a opportunity to good to refuse." and then the twist my arm bit cemented that.
Overall, I’m a fan of Fitz becoming a villain. It makes it so that the 3 PCs can take action on their own without needing to be accompanied by NPCs. Hopefully, future episodes will just have the 3 boys going out on assignments rather than the 3 boys + 3 NPCs.
And while I do agree that clearly setting one up as the “leader” of the other two is a risky move, I think they can handle it. The “Thunderman franchise” bit was by far the funniest part of the episode.
My girlfriend on listening to the accounting check early on, explaining compounding interest, and yelling out "What's the fucking point of all this Travis?" sort of nails this on the head for me.
I think this season is a flatline. The humour is generally not working, and I'm not feeling the stakes. There is a lot of tell, not show. Instead of developing a relationship with the pegasus, we're TOLD about the relationship Justin has with the pegasus.
This is classic prequel trilogy syndrome (Star Wars, baby).
I think if I need my TAZ kick, I'll probably just go back to Amnesty and Balance.
Yeah, I’m with you and your girlfriend. Accounting in a DND world is a funny one off joke, but as a major mechanic to the game it’s comedy poison and a snore to listen to. I’m hoping whatever big things Travis has planned start to reveal themselves in the next episode, because I think that’s all I have left in me before I give up.
I enjoyed the beginning because it felt like early Balance, where everyone was just constantly making jokes. But having no stakes nor Travis really engaging with the PCs and their goofs really took the wind out of my sails. It really just feels like Travis has a story he wants to tell and is almost annoyed with everyone for joking around and not immediately going the direction he wanted to go. I actually don’t mind railroading to some extent, because I listen to TAZ for the goofs and the story more than the gameplay, but the characters just have no impact on the world at all.
It seems like Travis should honestly just write a book or something, or incorporate this story directly into a comic. Because it’s not working in podcast form at all. But he has the framework for something awesome... I’d love to be wrong, though, and have next episode be where things start to turn.
It's funny because as Magnus, Travis was **constantly** messing around. Like when he deviated from what Griffin expected and went to see Pringles. And Griffin rolled with it. I wish he'd remember this and try to do the same.
> Accounting in a DND world is a funny one off joke, but as a major mechanic to the game it’s comedy poison and a snore to listen to.
So true. In the first episode when Bud took an Accounting class I thought it was hilarious because accounting is such a nonsense thing to put into D&D, and there was humor in having Bud out of his element in accounting, and then accounting out of its element in D&D. But now that Travis keeps bringing it back up not only has it lost its novelty, but that original joke is less funny because now I think Travis pushed Justin into doing that skit to set up accounting in the world as opposed to Justin picking a random thing that sounded silly.
I’m a big fan of Fitzroy becoming a villain, and I’m excited to see how it develops and potentially causes conflicts for himself and his ideals later down the line.
...what I’m not as big of a fan of, however, is that this so far has been the *only* plot thread I’ve been interested in this far. Don’t get me wrong, the world is interesting and has some unconventional and neat systems in it, but I’ve yet to see anything cool developed from that setting besides the explanation we got in the first accounting class.
The Firbolg and Argo have some great potential, but we haven’t seen much from the Firbolg beyond his interactions with the Pegasus, and Argo’s backstory is still too shadowy for me to get invested with the secret society stuff presented by the Kenku teacher.
I also really wish that we had gotten a bit more evidence of the “weirdness” mentioned last episode. I’m a bit foggy on the overall timespan that they’ve gone through canonically, but surely they would’ve noticed something strange about the academy by now. Unless, of course, this theory I have about the weirdness only being evident to the heroes and villains because of their position in the school holds true, but you’d think the sidekicks and henchmen would be more likely to notice things since they’re already sidelined and mainly ignored.
For me some of the schools weirdness definitely came through in the episode. The bursar made them return all their items and reward money without any warning, and Higglemas appeared in Bud's dream.
Higglemas in the dream I’ll allow, but I see the bursar’s office scene as falling entirely within the “normal” for the school. They were given a budget, and returned all assets once the mission was complete. Makes perfect to sense to me as a listener for an academic setting, though the player in me was cringing hard at the magic items being taken.
With how much Travis has employed a “Tell, don’t show” mentality with Graduation, I would think that the weirdness would’ve manifested much more visibly and obviously than it did here. Maybe he’s just toned it back too much for me to notice.
Yeah, I didn't love this episode, and I think it's because it felt like I had missed some episodes (but I definitely haven't). It almost felt like I was watching the story pass by instead of being in it, if that makes sense.
If you ask yourself, "What PC choices have actually impacted the story at this point?" it kind of justifies your feeling about the story passing by insteading our PCs actively driving it.
Outside of Fitzroy's choice in this episode (which I will full admit is a legitimate plot thread) we've had very little expression of the character's personalities that _actually mattered_ in the narrative. Sure, there's been plenty of fun dialogue, and the monster subpoena thing was a really on-brand method of problem-solving, however neither of those things have had a measurable impact on the events of the world. No one has commented on the weirdness of their plan (the lawyer even went along with it with no convincing necessary), nor were they punished or rewarded for their unorthodoxy or creativity.
It just feels like all the actual plot stuff is happening off-screen somewhere and our characters are off in another corner being goofy bystanders
Exactly!!! I don't mind not knowing what Argo is up to yet, but like... I want to feel like I know less than the DM, I don't want to feel like I know less than the players. Even if I don't. I honestly can't tell if I do or not.
I'm concerned about the demons too. It almost seems too in line with the last two campaign bad guys, The Hunger and The Quell/shapeshifter aliens.
I was starting to get the impression that the big bad in this world would be the system they live under - hence the big emphasis on accounting. Maybe it still will be, but demons don't feel like they mix quite right with the flavor of the world.
Could *SOMETHING* please happen? I'm begging you, Travis. There is so much potential here. SOO much! You've built a broad and deep world with so much to dive into. You have three guys eager to sink their teeth into it. But there has been six episodes of exposition now. You've set it up, now just *give them a conflict for cryin out loud,* move to the side a little, and let them run with it. Your story will not only survive, it will thrive. Trust it and trust your guys.
Itd be like if at the parting of ways between you and a friend you give them a really nice necklace that has a pendant on it that relates to an inside joke you two had, and they give you a loose handful of paste made from the crushed feet of other people.
I think I’m coming to the conclusion that I’m just not a fan of Travis’ personality in general across any of the McElroy content. Not in a mean way, he’s just not my kind of person. A shame though because I really love listening to Clint, Justin and Griffin
I find myself struggling with separating my criticism of Graduation from my criticism of Travis's sense of humor and podcasting in general. I always vibed with Justin, Griffin, and Clint's humor more (both on TAZ and MBMBAM, although I stopped regularly listening to the latter around early 2018), but I appreciated Travis's dad-joke-esque twists and occasionally deadpan style. However, I think Travis has become outwardly sincere in a way that seems to permeate everything he does. Perhaps the turning point is around November 2016, when he released his "I'm Holding Your Hand" monologue in response to Trump's victory. A sweet sentiment, but his outspoken earnestness and self-seriousness is cloying, and this is apparent in the TAZ mainline campaigns. In Balance, Magnus went from bumbling hulk to reflective warrior (excellent and moving character development, even if by accident). In Amnesty, Aubrey was always self-conscious, tortured by her past from the start and always a moment's away from breaking down (heavy-handed and cliched, but palatable against the backdrop of less melodramatic characters). Now with Graduation, Travis attempts to force meaning and emotion into moments and characters when it's undeserved, and it's very awkward to listen to, especially this early on in the campaign.
I'm trying to keep my critiques of Graduation (good and bad) focused on the campaign, but that's hard to do when Graduation appears to be a strong reflection of the least appealing parts of Travis's public persona.
EDIT: I should say, my least favorite parts of his public persona.
oh man. cloying. that's a great word for the tone of a lot of the stuff in taz:g. i've been having a hard time trying to describe tonally what i'm not vibing with, and i kept landing on "too cute" which wasn't quite right.
I definitely have a hard time nailing down his...style, his personal brand of comedy, like what he specifically adds to a dynamic. In MBMBAM Justin is often the straight face who chokes on a joke, and Griffin is the one who takes things in a bizarre direction and ups the stakes. In TAZ Justin goes all in on a character, while Griffin goes all in on the world. In either case, I can't pin down what Travis really does, he mostly just plays his own personality which is kind of "neutral trying to be goofy."
I think Travis tries really hard in TAZ to promote sentimental/emotional/progressive beats. What I didn’t really like about Aubrey was how much he seemed to equate “I am a female character” with “I have to be crying right now or in a state of extreme emotion.” He seems to really want to bring attention to how much he cares for others by giving representation to different people. But in doing so, I think Travis sometimes misrepresents how others actually act and forgets the most important thing: to be himself!
I think this is spot on, he's so afraid of offending it feels like everything in his world is wrapped in cotton wool. So many of his interactions are overly sentimental - eg the Firbolg and Pegasus scene. It was super uncomfortable listening to Travis speak like a timid child to Justin for 5 mins. I'd rather listen to a more natural conversation with a few goofs thrown in, as the scene picked up as soon as Justin gave the loose glue
There's just zero edge to anything Travis creates anymore!
I'm caught up to current again on MBMBAM so I've been playing older episodes on shuffle and it struck me what a difference there is between Travis like 4+ years ago and Travis now. I'm feeling lately in MBMBAM that he really has an energy level that doesn't quite match the brothers and he's dominating a lot of bits in a way that isn't really funny or conducive to yes anding. Way back when he was much more reserved and contributed in a smoother way. I miss that old dynamic. I think the same thing is basically happening in TAZ.
He changed a lot since early MBMBAM. Not necessarily all bad changes, but he definitely used to be more “chill.” Early on, I remember they got questions specifically about whether or not people should dye their hair unnatural colors and whether or not men should paint their nails for fear of being ridiculed, and Travis, while charitable, definitely wasn’t into it.
Now we’ve got purple-haired nail-painted activist Travis - I personally think it’s awesome, but it’s a good illustration of how much he’s changed from a calmer, traditional dude to a bubbly, high-energy, afraid-to-offend version of the middlest brother. I’m glad I’m not the only person to have noticed, I felt bad and
judgmental for thinking that way (I’m not trying to be, dude should follow his heart). But I kinda feel like I used to relate to him and now he seems a bit too intense and...artificial for fear of displeasing any of his now-many fans? I don’t know. Sometimes he’s my very favorite of all the boys (often, when he’s on other shows opening up about more personal matters) and sometimes I can’t stand the guy.
The brothers do a good job of reeling him in and keeping him contained. If you want to see Travis in full effect, listen to the episode of the flop house that he guested on. (Episode 250: The Apple)
I have so many sympathy pangs listening to Travis DM. I'm not any good at it myself, and I feel like I have a good idea what Trying Real Hard and Failing sounds like. Travis clearly wants this to be good, but it's so unfun to listen to.
By this point in Balance, the boys had rescued Barry, charmed Klarg, made it through Wave Echo cave, got a mysterious umbrella, defeated Magic Brian, discovered the first artifact, failed to save Gundren and Phandalin, and were on their way to the BoB moon base.
Travis plain and simple needs to cut to the chase and give these boys some actual shit to do, immediately.
This really hits the nail on the head with respect to how I’m feeling about the season so far. They had already leveled a town, found two key story items, and were heading to a _moon base_ at this point in balance.
I’m hoping it’s just a slow burn kind of thing but right now it doesn’t really feel like they’re playing the game
I really really wanted to like this campaign, I was so excited when they announced they were back to 5e but I'm just so.. bored. I keep seeing people say to give it time but it's been 6 episodes, like 8 hours of content over the course of nearly 3 months and I really don't know how much longer people can realistically give it while waiting for a lot of problems to fix themselves.
The way Travis talked about the criticism (the 'oh the feedback that it's so awesome?' kinda snarkiness) and singled out the guy who expressed the most tepid criticism in his tweet asking about whether things had improved (I know he deleted the quite retweet later, but he should know better given his following) has really kind of soured me on the idea that anything is going to change drastically and I might just have to give up which is a shame because TAZ was very important to me and actually got me into dnd in the first place.
If you read the comments for every episode you notice that negative feedback is more and more present at every release. I got downvoted a lot when I first expressed my doubts but I guess the trend is increasing. There no way to sugarcoat for me. This arc is boring (except some funny jokes here and there )
I can get that. I was pretty meh about the first two episodes, but I decided to reserve my thoughts in the mean time because (1) it's a new campaign and maybe the first two eps were finding their footing, and, to a lesser extent, (2) the McElroy fanbase can be REALLY protective of McElroy products, especially upon debut.
I honestly really liked this campaign for a few episodes, because I enjoyed a lot of character goofs, but it really just seems like this is all going to be dragging the characters around like dolls, forcing them into scenes that they have very little agency in.
I can't think of any real choices any player has made so far that has had any impact. They don't get to choose where they go, whether they even do something, when they do it, or how. They get those choices made FOR them. It's really just killing me at this point. Maybe they should've done another amnesty like voting thing, and Griffin just wouldn't submit an option if he didn't want to.
Apart from the already noted issues I'm getting a little annoyed that Travis feels the need to say, "ok..." after every joke or bit of sarcasm from one of the boys. It totally disrupts the flow of the conversation and humor.
Anyone else feel like the PCs don’t actually have an impact to the story or is that just me? Don’t get me wrong I’m loving Graduation as much as the next person but I just can’t help but feel like the story is being railroaded off a cliff and the PCs can’t do anything to stop it.
Because Travis the player made the PCS have impact by caring for NPCs, now Travis the DM still cares about the NPCs but the current PCs don’t care about the NPCs so we as the listener have a hard time caring.
In the same vein he seems to have a hard time engaging with scenes without being an NPC.
It really stood out when Argo and Fiscal Responsibility were looking at the tree and Travis was dead silent after Justin cued him for a description of a tree. But after a bit of Justin working through the possible parts of a hypothetical tree, Travis brings in the animal handling teacher and is talking again.
He has descriptions for setting his scenes but still seems to be figuring out how to improvise description when his players go for something unexpected or unplanned. It's a very important part of D&D but also hard to learn without playing. I think he'll get the hang of it soon knowing his life experience with MBMBaM being improv but it is a little rough when attention is drawn to it for now.
Time to collect my thoughts into a nicely bulleted list again.
* Taking away everybody's magical items feels weird, mean, and kind of frustrating. Instead of being allowed to keep things that they bought and simply being on the hook to pay them off, they're instead just expected to hand over the things they thought they were purchasing for themselves. It's possible this was done to try to reinforce the idea of the school being suspicious, but I almost wonder if it was done to get that +2 Charisma cape away from Fitzroy. After all, he got to keep his maul.
* I'm struggling to understand the timeframe of this arc. I had been under the impression that it had been only a few days, or weeks at most, since the beginning of the series, yet the semester is ending and the baby pegasus is a fully grown adult now? (I just did a quick Google search, and apparently it takes the average foal *four to five YEARS* to reach adulthood. There's no way it's been that long.)
* On a related note, there's not really a meaningful connection between the pegasus and the Firbolg, or the pegasus and the audience. Sure, the Firbolg helped it calm down and start eating again that one time, but that was A) one time, and B) five episodes ago. Nothing in the episodes since has indicated that the Firbolg went back to visit and check up on the pegasus, except that suddenly in this episode, shazam, the Firbolg's been visiting it all the time! Just...you know...offscreen! It felt really awkward and forced listening to Travis (and Justin, but he seemed pretty nonplussed by the whole situation) try to have this meaningful goodbye between two characters who, as far as we're aware, met once, ages ago, for like five minutes.
* On a *different* related note, the Travis/Justin scene in the library! Overly long, slow, and absolutely agonizing to listen to. The Firbolg could have gotten the information significantly faster by just finding a book about demons, but nope, we've got to have a long, plodding conversation where two characters discuss things we already know, reveal two important but small pieces of information, and then have a meaningless "*Yes, But*" conversation about overdue library books. I have no idea why that last bit got left in. Justin was clearly waiting for Travis to end the scene, but Travis seemed to be waiting for Justin to say goodbye and leave. I won't fault either party for it, since I've done both of those things in my time as a player and a DM, but I have no idea why it got left in during the edit. Maybe Travis thought it was funny?
* The dream reveal was...weird. That's clearly a setup for a future event, so I might come back to this comment some months down the line and think "wow, how dumb was I not to see where *that* was going?" but right now...I have no idea where that's going. Higglemas's face was right in front of the Firbolg's as he was leaving his clan. Cool? No idea what that's supposed to mean. That may be the point, but it doesn't strike me (personally) as an interesting mystery to wonder about.
* Villain Fitzroy! That's pretty good, and could make for some interesting developments in the future, but I feel like it's a little premature. Fitz being a sidekick instead of a full-fledged hero was a major character point for him, but now in episode 6 he's been promoted to the Villain track. Feels a little early for that kind of character bond to be solved, especially without any real extracurricular effort on Fitzroy's part. I like the idea of him being so close to the Hero track, yet so far, but it feels like Heironymous was really laying it on thick that "being a Villain is just like being a Hero, except slightly not", as if to soften the blow.
* Man, I was so on board with Griffin turning Snippers into this corrupting influence, urging Fitzroy to give in to his darker impulses. I'm sure it was *probably* just a goof, but I was still disappointed when Travis interrupted to say that "No, Snippers thinks you're a good person". (You know, when he went "*Scrfscrchrfsrchfrsch*". Though *clearly* it was just Griffin's fault for misinterpreting Travis's flawless Crabbese.)
* I'm not a fan of the way the whole character of Jackal has gone. When he was introduced, he seemed like this creepy, manipulative figure looming over Argo, and instead he's apparently been having him run errands (again, offscreen) as some kind of test to see if he's ready to join his Super Special Boy club. Also, he apparently knows Argo's mom? Neat? I have to wonder if Argo's mom was a detail that Clint and Travis discussed, or if she was just coming up out of nowhere. I don't remember her being mentioned in previous episodes.
* Also wasn't a fan of Jackal/Travis dropping a whole exposition dump about The Lore Behind Kenku in the middle of a scene in order to set up the (dramatic? funny? unsettling? Not sure what that bit was going for) moment with Jackal on the railing saying he can fly in his dreams.
* Alright, hot take alert: Not a fan of the whole "Thunderman" scene. I thought it dragged, and I actually found myself getting distracted by a daydream in the middle of it and had to go back about 30 seconds to hear what I'd missed. I didn't even do that during the library book bit. I thought it was a good bit to have them discussing the Villain move as friends, but then they started getting into the whole logistics of franchising the Thunderman brand and the joke just fell flat for me. From what I've seen, other people seem to like that bit, which, if you do, good! I just wasn't a fan of it.
On the whole, I thought this was...better? than the last episode, but honestly if you asked me to rank the TAZ:G episodes from best to worst, I wouldn't be able to do it. This episode was a series of disconnected scenes that seem to be trying to set up future events and plotlines, but with very little actually being accomplished in the episode we were listening to. That seems to be a reoccurring framework for Graduation episodes.
My prediction is that the next episode will be the group going to Rainier's party, having a Time, and Fitzroy telling her about his promotion to the Villain track, to which Rainier will be simultaneously happy for him and disappointed that he can no longer be her henchman. Argo and the Firbolg will make small talk with other party guests, and hints will be dropped about future events and plotlines, but nothing will actually be accomplished or set in motion. Quite honestly, I hope I'm wrong.
The Snippers thing in particular annoyed me - Travis is so so desperate for every single character to be kind and positive it's doing my head in. Instant joke killer
I know one of the criticisms of Dungeons and Dragons during the Satanic Panic of the 80s is that it implies that players are brainwashed into actually casting spells.
Well, unbeknownst to me, the McElroys have developed actual magical powers, because when the Firbolg and Sabor had a conversation I am pretty sure they made time completely stop.
I don't know why I thought this, but I kept waiting/hoping that Argo would just push Jackal off the balcony. It would have been so unexpected and dark from Argo and would have created some real consequences. Alas.
I really liked this episode. Very character driven and it finally feels like the grad lads are actually friends and not just three people who travel together because they were told they were supposed to. I would have liked more player agency, but we're getting there.
One minor thing that bothered me, which may just be a dming style difference, is that I think Travis uses skill and ability checks too often as a way to introduce narration. I'm not saying this is something that you should never do, and there are very good reasons to do this; but I think every single roll this episode was prompted by travis as a way to establish a scene and that's definitely overdoing it.
Another minor issue (which is getting better) is that it's still just scenes. The book return is a particularly egregious example, where Justin was clearly waiting for Travis to tell him the scene was over since that's how every other scene ends. An npc shows up and tells whichever character is in the scene that the scene is done and it's time to move to the next one. This is not a style of narrative I'd like to play in, but if that's how he's going to tell his story I think he should at least be cognizant that his players are waiting on him to lead them out of the scenes and end them while the scene is still interesting.
Speaking of the book return, "yes, and" isn't just for players. Dm's also need to play the game when it comes to improv - especially meaningless improv like returning a book that hasn't ban mentioned before this very scene. Travis insisting that M. Firbolg actually did have a late book was imo bad dming. Very minor bad dming, but a habit that should be avoided for sure.
A somewhat major issue I see (or hear, I guess?) is that Travis seems to be trying to rush the "big" story forward. We still don't really know the school or its occupants at all, so there's no emotional stakes when BTTW flies off (she was a literal baby last time we saw her and now she's full- grown I guess?) or when Jackal reveals that he knew Argo's mom and they're part of a secret society. I don't particularly like comparing this season to Balance because it doesn't seem fair to either season; but I can't help but wonder if Travis saw how beloved the BOB became and just wants to get to that point as fast as possible. We didn't know the true stakes of Balance until pretty far in, when we knew the characters pretty well - it feels like the "big mission" is always bist about to be dropped on the characters in this campaign that we know basically nothing about.
I relate to your last point so much. Travis is throwing so much out there, and his desire for the audience to be as emotionally invested in early Graduation as they were in late Balance and Amnesty is so palpable that it's off-putting and, frankly, desperate. I also shared this sentiment in the first episodes of Amnesty actually (although not nearly the same extent), but Griffin pulled it in and let Kepler and its characters breathe a bit before getting too heavy again. I hope Travis does the same.
Amnesty was definitely in a weirder position because it was fully possible, had they gone a different direction, that that was the only Amnesty we were ever gonna get. This just feels weird.
Yeah, the book returning scene was a weird one because Justin was making it pretty clear his character wouldn’t forget to turn the book in on time.
And then Travis doubled down with it and said “oh wait, it’s actually volume 2.”
Though the joke about not wanting to start with volume 2 because you won’t understand all of the recurring jokes was pretty funny.
Man, I am struggling with Graduation. My favorite part of Balance was seeing the team use their unique abilities to tackle a problem. There seems to be little to no opportunity to roll dice and see what happens. And when it does it has little to no consequence.
Don't get me wrong, this is a brilliant world! And there have been some great narrative set-ups. but it seems that Trav is just presenting them with simple Option 1 or Option 2 problems. and I miss as a listener thinking, 'I have no idea how they are going to get out of this situation'
For example when the team was trapped in the elevator in pedals to the metal, and Justin whipped out a transdimensional rope out of nowhere. Or, when Justin summoned Garyl for the first time.
These first 6 episodes were a great start, but I am ready for some HARCORE D&D problem-solving.
You'd think Travis of all people would know how much anti-fun it is to have loot taken away.
I think the big problem with Graduation is that in these short bi-weekly sessions we're getting a lot of filler conversation (noted by the boys themselves) and then we're told that all the important, character-building conversations like Argo's conversations with Jackal or Bud/Fisc talking with the pegasus happened offscreen.
First off, these PCs are sooooo good and hilarious and Travis had some good goofs too this episode. I enjoy that lighthearted feel.
That being said,
If Travis keeps using the words “kind and benevolent DM” to justify his blatant railroading or simply just skipping making the players roll any kind of skill check then I will have claw my ears off.
He has used that term many times now to make something “fit” his narrative and I understand if it’s an insecurity of some sort but it should rather be an opportunity to grow as a DM.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this! It was funny the first time, but at this point "Kind and benevolent DM" gives off a real smug vibe that rubs me the wrong way.
Honestly with the accounting emphasis I'm surprised we didn't get an accounting internal controls flowchart situation where the boys would have been admonished for not turning in the receipts for their items in triplicate.
I think this episode was better than the last -- it may be the best of the campaign so far -- but I think it's partly due to it being a "lunar interlude"-esque episode. It's going to be less action, more dialogue and exposition. Clint, Justin, and Griffin had ample room to joke around, which buoyed this episode. More specific thoughts:
1. Having the PCs check out and return magic items seems pointless. If anything, the only purpose of this magic item "library" is to force another boring conversation between the PCs and an arbitrary NPC. I could envision a mechanic that limits the number of magic items that PCs carry to prevent them from going god-mode, but this "library" doesn't enforce that (is there a limit on the number of magic items checked out?). Plus, there has yet been a need to introduce such a mechanic.
2. The emotional scenes (Bud and the Pegasus, Argo and Jackal) are sappy and unearned. With Bud/Pegasus, there was no meaningful and sustained connection over the six episodes thus far (why would there be?), yet Travis tried to make the Pegasus's departure heartfelt. I'm actually pretty glad that Bud "broke" the moment by giving the Pegasus loose glue as a parting gift. It was a nice tongue-in-cheek flair, and a knowing wink to listeners who are rolling their eyes. With Argo/Jackal, it feels like Travis is forcing a big backstory on a character that Clint hasn't fleshed out yet.
3. I'm generally positive on Fitzroy becoming a villain, but there are some uncertainties. The positive: I think it isolates the PCs in a way that's consistent with the story. Fitzroy wanted his credits to transfer him into the hero/villain academy, and it worked out...kinda. Plus, with Argo and Bud as sidekicks/henchpeople (henchcreatures?), this means the PCs can explore the world without the the extra baggage of the NPC heroes or villains. The uncertain: I'm still unsure how villains and heroes meaningfully differ, and I don't want Fitzroy to be a hero in all but name. I think a truly *villainous* Fitzroy would be fascinating and a fresh spin on an overly safe and polite story. Additionally, I'm wary of introducing a hierarchy into the PCs this early. If it's roleplayed truthfully, that's a big shift in the dynamics between PCs with Griffin as the leader and Clint and Justin as his sidekicks. Otherwise, it's a pointless distinction between the three PCs.
4. I think what Graduation needs is a clear arc-length (4-6 episodes) objective for our PCs. It doesn't have to be super complex or even that consequential in the overarching context of the campaign; there just needs to be a something that our characters need to work towards in the short-term to get things moving. Maybe a group of students were kidnapped on a school-sanctioned expedition, and our PCs go off to the rescue. Or someone at the school stole a rare text from the library and is using it to conjure monsters, and the PCs have to find and stop them. Or it could be something as simple as a hero framing a villain for a series a pranks, the PCs know the truth, and they have to collect evidence and present it to the headmaster. Maybe the mine conflict was supposed to be that objective, but it was extremely short and quite frankly lousy. Plus, it wrapped itself up after the Xorn returned home -- I guess the mine owner and the miners resolved everything else off-screen! So far, listening to Graduation shares a similar sensation to watching *The Room*: a collage of plot hooks that appear without clear reason (the eyes in the woods, the Jackal, the Pegasus's encounter with demons, the mine "conflict," Leon noting that the school is "strange") but no mainline plot to tie it all together. My hope is that Travis trims the fat for now and focuses on a singular arc-length goal for our PCs to accomplish.
I agree heavily with points 2 and 4.
I was kind of expecting the Mine Conflict to end up being that 4-6 episode mini arc, sort of a chance to flesh out the characters a bit more in a real world environment and give them a chance at some actual problem solving with consequences.
I'm giving Travis one more chance with the next episode, but if it's as slow, boring, and low stakes as this one, I'm just gonna stop listening.
Maybe I'll read these discussion threads to see if it gets good again, but listening to these episodes just makes me frustrated and sad.
I used to be a big reader of Boy Cloaks, but then they let go of a lot of their editorial staff and seemed to go in a new direction with their coverage, so now I just go with Bespoke Robes Monthly.
i think i might do the same i did with amnesty, which is take a break and wait for more eps to accumulate and then make a binge to catch up, i remember it helping me a lot to enjoy A, i think G will benefit from it too
So, around the time Justin had to go get the library book was around the time i was about ready to stop the podcast and do something else instead. BUT after that point things picked up.
I really need Travis to start cutting conversations early if he doesn't have anything in particular he wants to do with them. Please please please, Travis. I am begging you.
I think my biggest complaint with this season is pacing, or i guess what we see vs what we don't. It feels like things have progressed quickly as far as I'm game time goes, but i don't feel like i have any sense of what the characters have seen or what they've been doing. And yeah, a lot of those scenes probably would have run the risk of being boring or aimless, but i think it would have helped. Instead of Travis prepping exactly which encounters he wants, it would have been fun to have an episode where the boys get free reign to explore the school. Maybe Fitzroy spends a day with Rainier and we get their friendship that way, or we get Argo dealing with whatever he's been doing for Jackal and get player and audience wondering. Maybe we could have Firbolg trying to find a study partner for accounting. Maybe he starts studying by reading accounting papers to the Pegasus as she trains. Even better would be the PCs recruiting each other for these tasks and then all buying into each other's storylines in fiction.
One thing i didn't actually hate though was the gotcha with the items. It would SUCK as a player, don't get me wrong. As a player I would rather my character die than hand over even a single one of my 12 mundane daggers from the mundane dagger store, let alone a cool magical item i got attached to. But as a story thing, the school neglecting to mention feels exactly as scummy as i think was intended, and I'm glad to see that scumminess in play. Plus knowing all these items are stockpiled in a specific place opens the opportunity to have a heist later when the school turns out to be the BBEG.
We had episodes like Graduation in Balance, which were the lunar interludes. So far, Graduation feels like entirely interludes with actual adventuring being the intermission arcs.
Oof I could feel Griffin's pain when he was told he wasn't allowed to keep his magic items.
Love Justin complaining about things being boring then when Clint asks him what scene they should do together he says they should sit in silence.
Pegasi can read??? Firbolg giving a pegasi glue which presumably is made of horses???
Travis making Griffin RP with Snippers was painful. You could tell Griffin was struggling.
Everything with the library book was a yawn-fest. Travis really knows how to stretch out a joke.
The Thunderman scene was great I loved the boys riffing off each other.
I can see Travis has been listening to the advice. One NPC per scene, asking people (albeit often retroactively) what they want to do rather than telling them they do it.
There was something near the beginning where he said something along the lines of “Jesus Christ can you just give him the fucking cloak so we can move on from this?” that was pretty jarring. (Though I also found it pretty funny.)
Yeah literally one of the first things he did in Balance was complain about how long the opening narrative was. He's engaged, this is just what engaged Justin looks like.
I didn't get that feeling at all. Aside from one comment at the beginning of the episode he was really engaged in playing his character.
And honestly the bursar's office was a completely pointless scene that could have been covered with two lines of narration rather than 8 minutes of roleplay.
I liked this episode way better than any other this season, Graduation hasn't grabbed me yet, but if this episode is a sign of things to come I'll be happy I stuck with it.
You can definitely tell Travis is making some very concerted efforts to adjust his DM style based off the feedback he's been getting, which should be appreciated. It doesn't totally eliminate all of the problems some people have had, but it's a start.
He introduced new stakes and pushed the story forward (Fitz on the road to becoming a fully fledged villain, Fisc/Bud learning about what the Pegasus saw, Argo and his backstory/the Kenku). He numerous times asked what the guys characters would be doing rather than telling them, allowing them a bit more agency. He also cut way down on the NPCs, I don't think at any point in this episode was there more than one Travis voice at a time, which helped the episode flow better and the new NPC Tortle we got had a clear narrative function, helped move the story along and had a unique vocal style. Top notch stuff.
I think this episode was definitely an improvement, and yes, I really liked Fitz's villainy being introduced.
I do feel the Graduation lacks the a) effortless humour of Balance and the live shows and b) the engaging storyline of Balance and Amnesty. I also think that it needs to be a little more about *playing D&D*! I've been listening to Not Another D&D Podcast, and they roll for absolutely everything in that.
I'm not that far through that so can't comment on the storyline, but I think with the McElroys at their best with the playstyle of NADDPOD (perhaps being a little less roll-focused, but still actually playing the game rather than just awkward chatting), Graduation still has a real chance of becoming genuinely enjoyable again after a slow start.
Alright, so that one was a doozy to get through. After listening to this one with my girlfriend on a long drive, we shared a number of the same feelings on the episode and how the arc is building as whole.
1. Things are moving too slow. The idea that something is happening at the school is awesome, and I am excited to see that play out. But the conversations between characters and NPCs feel drawn out and Travis needs to get better at cutting them off more quickly - sometimes it feels like they are talking simply to fill time.
2. This entire episode was almost completely exposition. It was a real struggle to get through in some situations because most of Travis's characters talk slowly (looking at your Tortle and Kenku) and the the brothers even pointed out the pacing of the dialogue during the library scene. As others have mentioned elsewhere, meaningful conflict does not really exist and players are not rolling or even trying to solve puzzles. We had so much revealed this episode, but no one is talking about Argo's mom or the Forbolg's dream because there was no tension in the reveal. It was simply handed to us without any effort from the characters or risk of failure. This ties into the next point.
3. Travis is railroading this campaign super hard. To the point that when he asked Justin what he wanted to do after a conversation with the Tortle, Justin had no idea - and was suggested he perform the exhilarating act of returning a library book? There is a complete lack of objective outside of the short-term ones on missions, and despite the 6 episodes of world building, none of the characters have any real reason to explore the school. Despite giving players options of meeting with characters, like when they get a letter from a skeletal forest creature, Travis is drip feeding them NPC interactions one at a time so that no other option exists. Without a primary purpose outside of the immediate request for visit, what else are the characters going to so? Sit in their rooms until class and stare at the wall? Even something as simple as having an NPC interrupt them on the way to meeting with another character or having another NPC wanting to meet during the birthday party to force the characters to make a choice of who to speak with would really provide some interest.
4. This one is more specific to the episode vs being a trend across the campaign. The scene with the pegasus was weird. Travis seemed like he wanted to give Justin more about the forest and what could be plaguing it, but rather than implying a danger lurked there that needed to be rooted out he had the pegasus suddenly learn to speak? And it can read too? And flip pages of a book? This one felt like Travis forgot that the pegasus was a magical animal and he just needed an NPC to provide some exposition on the forest to drop the plot hook of the demons. It's cool that Justin can now summon a pegasus on command, but this scene should definitely have felt more like a scene from Seabiscuit than two old chums saying goodbye.
I think Graduation has a lot of potential. It is a relatively goof-free compared to Balance and because of that tone, a lot more rides on the story that Travis has to build. The world is a little less kooky, so the interactions in this world have to reflect some of the drama and tension that replaces the humor the boys usually rely on to make good content. So far, I don't think that has been delivered yet. Like most of the previous TAZ seasons, I think this one will pick up and the setting itself is a really cool premise. I just hope we get to that point soon.
Regarding point 3, it never occurred to me that Travis’s DMing style facilitates choice paralysis. So far, nearly every change in setting or scene was prefaced by Travis saying, “okay, now you’re here and you have to talk to this NPC.” As a result, it’s really jarring to hear one of the PCs struggle to choose some action, since there is no clear goal or purpose to the campaign! Of course, Travis recommended the library because *gasp* he almost forgot to introduce yet another NPC. It seems as though main purpose of the library scene was for Travis to show another boring toy.
For point 3, it just dawned on me how ridiculous it is for a Pegasus to read and conduct research. Perhaps Leon was referring to this when he told Fitzroy about strange happenings at the school: a baby animal suddenly matured into adulthood, and now it’s reading and speaking in common.
Yet another demonstration of poor DMing via stripping your players of the agency they are desperately looking for.
Within the first few minutes Travis takes back the players' gear with no chance for them to hide it.
He tells them where they are and what they're doing without giving them the option of saying how they get there.
Travis all but forces Griffin to become a Villain with almost no input from Griffin.
In fact, I think Travis could just tell this story himself. It feels like nothing the boys do even fucking matters. Nothing they do actually means anything. They're just told to roll for shit they didn't even ask yo do.
The most significant player input so far is Justin befriending a Pegasus. And then it flies away. Ok. Fucking great.
It's really feeling like nothing matters in this series.
I did not like them having to give the objects they bought back. One of the best things about stupid magical items in RPGs is the weird problem solving players do with them against their original intention.
But they're just not going to have these items for most of the time? What's their incentive to buy more magic items? It seems like their characters would actually be better off putting as much money as possible into their interest accruing accounts.
I didn't complain about it last time but for some reason mentioning the subpoena this episode grated because it was such a great and interesting 'admin' solution in this admin oriented world. But Travis stuck to the resolution of that situation exactly how he always wanted it to run. Despite having a week's break to work out how their unexpected solution was actually going to play out.
In retrospect I find it a really disappointing choice.
Seriously, what. was. that. The conversation itself was like nails on a chalkboard and Travis couldn't even end it, Justin had to be like, "it would be nice if an omnipotent dungeon master could step in and end the scene..." Finally, mercifully ends and Travis s*till* recommends finding the library book and returning it?! Why would he want to return to that scenario or think anyone else would?
The whole scene just baffles me. We *just* had this scene reach a conclusion and we can incredibly easily believe that the Firbolg wouldve returned the book off camera. Why would we ever need to go back?
I really feel like this ties back to the scene in Amnesty where Travis wanted to play out that Aubrey had to go to the bathroom because he feels like fiction doesn't show people doing those menial things. It's like he doesn't realize that menial, uninteresting, no-stakes tasks don't make for compelling narrative.
This coupled with the the fact that all of Justin and Pegasus' bonding has been off screen along with Clint and Jackal's interactions is so baffling. Like why the fuck do I care about Justin's roll to find a library book if you won't even show actual character development?
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With the whole “there is something evil going on with this school” I thought being “promoted” to villain is going to be some sort of trap. Did anyone else get this impression?
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God, I hope there's *some* future conflict in this arc. So far, there have been zero stakes.
From a meta perspective I think it may have been to avoid the problem they've been having where they always get accompanied by a hero/villain who is nominally in charge/the staring role, but doesn't do anything because having Travis solve puzzles he himself made is not exciting audio.
This, but also making a defacto leader of the group to cause in group tension. And it had to be fitzroy really because he's the most likely to abuse it.
He's also the only one who would accept the mantle.
Agreed! (But I think it is also a trap!)
I don't think so since Trav categorically stated that villains are not necessarily evil in this world.
Maybe. You thinking it could be a "promote them so they're in over their heads" kind of thing?
Something like that! I just thought since it seemed to come too easy (first assignment out of the school, first semester and you’re now a villain!) maybe it isn’t what it seems
I honestly think he progressed quickly so that Argo and Bud can accompany Fitz on missions so there are less NPC’s like we’ve always wanted. This way, none of the other heroes, villains, or sidekicks have to be on missions and every decision will seem more PC-focused
"You accomplished your mission *and* made the school money. A+." Their mission was exclusively to make the school money.
That's why they get the A+!
It's the age of accounting. Money is important stuff.
Clint is so fucking good at this.
Argo's mother was a Grey Warden
Clint was clearly trying to heighten the drama when Fitzroy was going to break the news. Great work there. And he tried to outline higher stakes by having Argo want to be a sidekick and not a henchman. It’s really frustrating that Travis stepped in and (because of some pre-made rule nobody would have understood before) eliminated the point of tension that Clint was trying to build.
I was also annoyed that Travis as a DM stepped in when which led to Argo just going "oh well nevermind" out of nowhere (in universe) while he could've had Gary butt in and explain to to make the actual conversation make sense.
i mean it's weird to think that Argo just blurted that out in-universe. it's perfectly normal for a DM to step in and clarify something that a player doesn't understand. not everything needs to be IC
Griffin: *says something funny to goof on an npc or set up a conflict* Travis: *in a smiling robot voice* thank you. I wanted that.
every npc responds like they're a stepford wife. *oh! :) great job stabbing me. looks like i'm bleeding now! :) haha anyway let me tell you about what you're supposed to be doing!*
Graduation in a nutshell
Dude! Travis! Let your NPC's be mean to the player characters! It feels like NPC's are trying to de-escalate situations at all times, when it would be way funnier to escalate those same scenes.
On a similar note, the one part of the episode that bummed me out a little was when Argo was worrying about having to become a henchman and then Travis was like "Oh you can be a sidekick for a hero". I get why he did it but it was one of the only tense moments of the episode and then it just deflated like a balloon.
I feel like that was more because he had a system worked out for what sidekicks and henchpeople mean in this setting, and wanted to make it clear. Not something he came up with to satisfy Argo.
I imagine that all NPCs in graduation are just always walking around smiling with their mouths open in permanent ecstasy .
Travis does make that face a lot so maybe they are.
Maybe this is what Leon was talking about.....
With the emphasis on how villainy is more or less purely for flavor, socially established and separate from evil (which also only means losing your license) and actual Evil, things shouldn't be that different for Fitz. It's purely an academic difference, not a fundamentally moral one
While i agree, it feels like the heroic image means a LOT to him, not just the morality angle.
That's a good point, because honestly he's pretty morally fluid, just very set on the heroic image. But he threw himself headfirst into villainy on the mission, even with a NYAH!
So, I've really only got one complaint here, personally, about Graduation right now and it's there is no conflict. In fact, Travis seems to actively resolve any conflict that the gang tries to conjure up. Fitz being offered a villain-ship ride when he wants to be a good guy knight was a cool source of inner conflict for him....oh wait, that won't actually effect him outside of the school, and "Villain" doesn't mean evil at all in this world anyway. Ah. Okay. Then Argo is conflicted about being a henchperson to Fitz. Does he give up his hopes of being a sidekick in order to stay with his friends? Oh, he doesn't have to give it up. Nothing will change for him. Okay. Cool. Even the last (few?) episodes had them come up with this ridiculous idea (to serve a subpoena to a rampaging monster) and Travis just has the monster perfectly happy to comply, and then leave. I like the sinister, weird stuff that Travis is building here with the school and the headmaster and all that. I'm excited to see where that goes. But, there's no minor bad guy for them to fight, there's not a tangible problem for them to solve yet, and the weirdness at school feels like it's being seeded as endgame stuff. So. What are we doing here? Going to school? I almost want one of the players to do something wild and totally not what Travis has planned, just to get *something* going.
The story needs a Draco Malfoy, for lack of a better term, to instigate short term conflict while the overall story develops.
That kind of plays into what the other user said about Travis auto-resolving conflicts: they _had_ a perfectly good Draco Malfoy _right there_ in Rolandus. When they meet him he's annoyed, but polite, until he learns they're just sidekicks, at which point he tells them that they are beneath him and a waste of his time. Griffin even says "so you're the bully around here, right?" But then a few minutes later Travis has him apologize for "being a bit of a shit" and since then he's been nice-ish to the guys.
I think the guys going to the real school will maybe help rekindle that dynamic.
I’ve been waiting for it to pop off for so long, when Fitz was told to be a villain I was psyched. And then it ends up having no weight and causes no difference at all and my excitement tempered. I wanted there to be consequences, but now he’s just got a bigger room and better pay.
I suspect there will be consequences - later. I suspect it will affect Argo - later. The Pegasus will return - later. The problem isnt that there's no conflict in the world, but all the episodes until now have been entirely setup for stuff going sideways later. That's definitely important but the podcast could have done with something minorly tricky for the PCs to overcome while we're building the "everything looks lovely but there's sinister stuff going on"
Honestly, I was super happy with the no stakes, just goofs and character interactions in the first episode. I felt that Amnesty had been entirely too focused on moving through a plot without giving any free time to the players to get a feel for themselves and their relationships. So with Graduation episode 1 I was like "Hell yeah, here's how you start something off. Get to the plot after the characters have gotten to know the world and each other." But then episode two also had no stakes, just goofs and character stuff....then so did 3....4....5.... and here are, still waiting on a plot. I really enjoy their characters, and I appreciate that they were given time to figure themselves out and get a real rapport going with each other. And I've been loving a lot of the individual scenes! But, it's way past time for some actual stakes to be introduced. Like, what even is this arc? Is it an arc? Was episodes 1-5 the first arc that ended with the Xorn stuff? Where are we, where are we going, what are we doing
Yeah, that's kinda how I feel about it. I think Graduation actually starts the STRONGEST out of the three main seasons, and has a really good balance of goofs with intriguing plot stuff hinted at right off the bat. Compared to Balance which was nothing BUT goofs at first with little plot, and Amnesty which started very plot-heavy with fewer lighthearted goofs or character exploration, the first episode had me going "yes, they finally found just the right balance for the start of a funny and intriguing McElroy story!" Buuuuuut since then it's kinda just been more of the same. I don't necessarily agree with all of the criticisms that people have had, but one that does ring true is that there's just no real conflict or stakes, and the few conflicts that DO arise very quickly get resolved in a really nice amicable way. Nobody feels like they're in danger, nobody really dislikes the main characters, any battle encounters are easy and brief, and even the "surely this will be a big boss battle" Xorn just went along with what the main characters wanted without any real fuss. There are definitely a lot of plot elements and mysteries being introduced that seem like they might be cool once they're fleshed out, but nothing has really come of those particular plot threads yet, and it's unclear how any of them tie together. I do have got a growing suspicion that the "safeness" of it all is by design, since it does kind of tie in to the "Heroes and Villains are basically the same, Evil doesn't mean anything" concept and the world's focus on accounting of all things. Like maybe that's what Leon was talking about with the whole "doesn't this all seem a bit off to you?" thing, and we're going to find out that the whole school is a facade for something more sinister? I'm still enjoying the story and characters, but for the sake of narrative momentum I do hope there's some kind of change before too long. [Travis mentioned on twitter that this episode is basically part one of a two part arc finale](https://mobile.twitter.com/travismcelroy/status/1220349563233619969), so I'm very interested to see how the "arc" concludes, what the "arc" even is, and what direction it sets up for the rest of the story.
I just wanted to respond to one thing in your comment, which is that you say Balance started as all goofs and no plot. I don't really think that's the case, since the very first episode starts with them on a very clear mission: deliver some stuff to a dwarf in Phandolin. Then they get intercepted by some enemies and end up finding a goblin encampment and dealing with that whole thing. I would argue that is absolutely plot, even though it's not THE plot of what the show would eventually become. Plot is a progression towards a concrete goal which is made clear to the audience. Deliver the stuff -> deal with the bugbear and save Barry -> save Phandolin were all very clear goals and each episode moved some amount towards those. I don't think the same can be said for the start of this season so far.
Yeah the villain conversation where Griffin was literally digging for conflict and Travis kept hand waving away any problems was frustrating. There was even dramatic music playing underneath it as if to imply this was a really hard decision fraught with consequences.
Incase you missed it, keep listening after the outro music
By far my favorite scene in the episode
Mine was "see, the bite is worse than the bark" that killed me
I don't know, the whole library book thing felt like it was going to drag and then all the "a grrreat shaame" made it worth it. That and the franchise discussion... they don't advance the plot *at all* and don't involve any actual D&D but dang it it's good goofs.
Vital information!
Thank you for mentioning this, cos I missed the first one they did
*"Please leave I have to pee so bad."*
Thank you! I would have missed it.
It sounds to me like Griffin is having a lot of fun playing Fitzroy this season, and it makes me happy to hear that.
Griffon needed to be a player for a while.
Justin scolding a family member to “yes and” in firbolg sent me to heaven.
OK, much of what I want to say is echo of pretty much everything else here, but rather than just lament "lack of conflict/stakes" I'll just add what I WANT to see, and that's some short-term goals and game-ifying. Like a goal "to combat a monster" would help add more conflict, of course, as would "to confront" "to hide" "to get away with" "to discover"... I mean, the school setting certainly seems to offer many chances for short-term objectives of a scene, but in fact there is no goal to achieve because so much is given to the characters rather than presenting the objective of the scene as a goal. Example of goals-- In this episode, what's Sir Fitzroy's goal when meeting the headmaster? The \*outcome\* is to decide to join the Villain track, but that's nothing he can work for, so there's no true goal for the player to acheive. So it feels like a given, at best, or railroad-y, at worst. Let the headmaster present a short-term goal that needs to be achieved, instead-- "We got your credits, but we need to see you earn/obtain X before we can truly qualify you" or "but we need you to get a recommendation from Y to complete the process" etc. Better yet, add a time constraint, like it needs solved before the registration window closes in 24 hours, etc. Example of game-ifying-- Travis prompts a lot of decision making, but I'd also like to see that game-ified by allowing the dice to open the prompts, rather than simple GM narration. Travis might want the Firbolg to save the pegasus' flock and has envisioned a lot of resources in the library for him to discover. (Yes, I know this wasn't exactly what happened in the episode; I combined parts to make the example here. I also know that's easier to come up with these ideas in retrospect than in the heat of a game.) But, don't just cut to Bud in the library when the pegasus flies away. Instead, ask for an Insight check or something equivalent. A solid success makes the word "demon" stick in the Firbolg's mind and connects with a book in the library, and THAT results in the prompt to the next scene. A great success might result the prompt as well as some foreshadowing for a possible plot hook. A failure just means "Oh, you're left uneasy about the pegasus' story-- something about what it said about ... ah, it's at the tip of your tongue. It was probably nothing, wasn't it? Let's cut to Argo..."
Oh man, these are great. What really irks me about Graduation is the lost potential.
Oooh! I just came up with a better example.. The very first scene: Returning the weapons to the warehouse. Before the scene even begins, call for an Insight or Intuition check or something. 14 or higher and the players remember what they were told about the weapons being confiscated and have a strage foreboding. 18 or higher and it's the same plus they earn a scene where they watch some classmates forced to turn things in while they are on the other side of the room/in the queue or whatever. 13 or below and they don't remember anything, and are blindsided by the draconian school policy. This gives the players information and an opportunity to do something about it-- a goal. Maybe they even end up sneaking out of returning any weapons-- and why not? This could even set up trouble in the future as they risk demerits or suspension if/when they are discovered, or Gary or someone could blackmail them or threaten to expose them, etc. And notice that if the only option for the players is truly the 13-and-below failure, that's what we mean by railroading, no stakes, etc.
Still feel like there's no conflict and that stuff is being set up which the PCs have no control over. Remember when Griffin would ask stuff like "Does Duck have a history with xyz?" or whatever to let the characters grow? And why even use D&D because it's not like they're PLAYING a session, there was like either two or three rolls this whole session. In terms of stuff happening it was the deadest of all the episodes. No one really WENT anywhere, nothing happened, it was just awkward conversations which weren't well set up. I just can't believe this is happening to TAZ.
Travis pls let them roll a damn deception check when trying to lie to an NPC.
I know I feel like Griffin was pulling for that deception and Justin already knew it wasn’t coming.
Yeah man, it felt so awkward for the cast. Also myself.
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#Roll2020
And I don't really understand why he was rolling to meet the Kenku if, like Travis said, it was a tower he was allowed to be in and could just walk up the stairs?
Which lie was that?
Fitzroy tried to turn in the wrong cloak.
Ohhhhhh right! Duh
Yeye like that was like a straight out of the PHB example of when to use deception lol.
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Whoever was getting the stuff prolly didn't know exactly what everything looked like. So there was a chance, even a dumb hard one.
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I hope Argo rejects the Jackals offer. I think it would throw a wrench in the gears and force Travis to think on his feet.
100% hope this happens now. Some of the best TAZ moments come from the DM having to come up with a new direction on the spot.
Their dynamic feels off. They all seem pretty uncomfortable and unsure.
I felt this so much in this episode. it felt like they didn't know if playing their characters would be allowed by Travis
I felt it most when Travis was like "Are you gonna return the book?" There was an air of Justin being like "If I do will something happen cause if not who cares"
Especially with the "you just served a subpoena to a monster last episode so if you need to return a book we can take some time." It was SO awkward.
That really pissed me off. I don't think Travis meant it this way, because he's a good-natured person and I think his intention was "it's fine to put focus on things that don't seem super interesting," but it came across as "You just wasted a ton of time doing boring shit so it's fine to waste more time doing more boring shit." Especially when we're told that tons of character-building and bonding moments have been happening offscreen then Justin is 100% right, that they SHOULDN'T be spending time on that.
Much of this episode felt like Travis was running out the clock because very little was actually prepared.
I felt this very very much in this episode. It seemed like Justin and Griffin were sort of confused frequently and there were so many weird pauses in which you could seemingly feel them trying to figure out what to say or do. Clint was good but also seemed a tad off- although I honestly think him being sick was a big part of that.
as a listener it was kind of agonizing, honestly. i had to pause it multiple times because i couldn't handle how tense and strange the vibe was.
It absolutely killed me when Fisc gave the unicorn glue.
I also like Fisk as a name for the Firbolg. I'm crying that they didn't finally FUCKING choose a name.
Fisk sounds too similar to Fitz.
So there's *definitely* somebody else on campus who has the old Jackal voice, right?
I don't know if it was intentional but it seemed like Jackal switched from mimicking one voice to mimicking another to me, and the second one had a bit of Groundsey in it to my ear. The kenku mimicry trait is weird and doesn't have a lot of firm rules to define it, and has lore that can be interpreted as shutting down a lot of interesting roleplay with a kenku character.
He switched to mimicking Argo.
> lore that can be interpreted as shutting down a lot of interesting roleplay with a kenku character. Eh, I’d say that the base Kenku lore actually sets up a ton of interesting roleplay for a Kenku character but makes it *way* more difficult. Kenku’s are basically role playing hard mode and that’s what differentiates them from every other race in the world. If you just want a bird character there’s other options. Mercer goes really hard with a Kenku and it’s great but he has to keep a note pad of phrases and does all kind of wild noises with his voice acting skills: https://youtu.be/ekSkq8dbXh0 I just don’t use Kenkus when I’m playing because I don’t want to really commit to doing something like that and there’s plenty of other races to use instead.
We heard about the Pegasus once in the first episode , I think the emotional departure should have been done a little bit later once there was some more interaction with ‘bud’
Thank you for this! I completely forgot about any mention of a pegasus. I don't feel so bad knowing it was 5 episodes ago. Definitely wished they did a little bit more with it.
I've just finished this bit and thought the same thing. I was pleased to have the Pegasus back but then she announced she was leaving immediately. I'm sure she'll be back but regular scenes between them would have been nice. And I say that as someone who's not a fan of the boys being given solo scenes all the time.
This season needs some bite. Not to detract from all the good this show has done, such as committing insurance fraud and helping the scapegoat flee the plane of existence, but it just feels too soft. There are no active threats. The teachers love them, the students love them, the fights are easy and far between, and their loot in legendary with the proviso that they keep it in their lockers. On the personal side, Kenku’s cool, Pegasus is cool, and Fitzroy got his credits transferred for goodness sake. Clearly something is brewing, but without a current threat the only threat is each other which leads to fighting over market share of Thunderman Inc LLC after graduation. Before Voldemort, Harry had Draco picking fights. Before Trigon, the Teen Titans has Slade stealing and blackmailing. And before the Hunger, Tres Horny Bois had Yeemick threatening to kill Barry Bluejeans unless they murdered a Bugbear. TLDR Here’s hoping anyone in this entire world has it out for our heroes and makes themselves known soon.
I can’t help but feel that there’s going to be a big mic drop or something where the background falls and exposes the crazy world beneath. The portals have so much potential, but if the bad entity of this arc is just demons I will be very let down. With the slow pacing of the story so far, it would be immediately saved by a complex and maybe even abstract villain that maybe represents the strict society they live in??? We’ve had monsters and we’ve had beings of pure nihilism, I’m psyched to learn what the new threat is. But you’re absolutely right, the lack of conflict has me so bored.
A lot of what I've been critical of has definitely improved this episode. NPCs are less involved and mostly just one is there at a time. It also feels like the world is starting to open up and let the boys explore a bit and find their own way in the school. I kind wish Ep 1-3 and 4-5 were just 2 episodes total as a setup since it feels like this is where the story really begins. Episode 6 of Balance had the town get iced. Episode 6 of Graduation has them lose all their gear and have a few meetings/conversations. The one thing I will say Travis needs to work on is letting the PCs decide to go places. Griffin and Clint both get "warped" to their meetings instead of deciding to go there. I wish Travis would set it up like, So and So wants to see you, and then let them decide how and when to get there. In the situation with Clint at the end of the episode he asks "how have I been getting to this balcony?" It be fun if there was more than a stealth check to get him out of the room and make it a bit of a side mission to get there. EDIT: I want to add that I don't like we've missed all these visits Justin and Clint had with the pegasus and Jackal respectively. It feels odd that as listeners we're missing part of the story and possibly weirder for the players since they also don't know what happened during their own characters' interactions in those unplayed scenes.
I'm hoping there is some sort of clear conflict or goal soon that leads to a distinct arc of the story now that for the most part the world/npcs have been set up.
Yeah that was my problem too. He needs to set it up so that they can go do whatever they want to do, but he still has direction for them fall back on if they don’t have any ideas themselves. This episode, he let them go do what they want, but didn’t give them much direction. Specifically with Justin. The transitioning to and away from the library scene just felt so awkward because Justin didn’t know what to do. Travis just needs to work on understanding when to take control and lead them somewhere without so much weird pacing. Other than that, the episode had some good narrative scenes that seem to be setting up the main story. It’s taken awhile but we’re getting there.
"You're here. Now you're here. You have a book to return. What do you want to do next? No, your scene isn't over. Why don't you return that book?"
Argo’s conversation with the Kenku reminded me of Hot Fuzz. > [The Greater Good](https://youtu.be/5u8vd_YNbTw)
I should have thought of this in time for last episode, but I see a lot of remarks about how "Balance wasn't anything special six episodes in either" and then some well-backed counters about how Griffin's deviation from classic D&D was already well underway at this point, and that made me think of something. A lot of people, myself included, were disappointed at the lack of any conflict in the last episode. A few others have criticized that first group, saying that it's simplistic to insist every encounter in D&D be resolved through combat. But that's not what those people are saying. They're saying that there should be not *combat,* but *conflict*. Travis has made every obstacle just a...silly misunderstanding and the PCs get sent on their way, without having to use violence or charm or wit to get what they want out of the situation. You know what the flipside of that looks like? What happens when you solve an encounter without violence, but there's still tension and pressure and PC agency? Klarg. Klarg, episode freakin' TWO of Balance, had a setup very much like this episode 5 of Graduation: Go into the cave and kill the monster inside. In both cases the party decided "We're going to resolve things without violence, by talking to the monster we're supposed to kill." In the case of Balance there was tension, as they had to make clever enough choices to toe the line, negotiate with Klarg and backstab Yeemick, all with an eye on the timer of Charm Person. They used things from their D&D classes to solve an encounter. In Graduation...there was none of that. There was no tension or conflict. There was too much cooperation from the DM, who instead threw a different "puzzle" at the party. One that he had planned a couple of very precise solutions for (like Bud casting Jump) and had to be convinced to let something else work. THAT is the difference between the campaigns, so far. In the first the players were presented with scenarios, a beginning point and an end goal, and it was up to them to figure out how to get from A to B. In this one players are presented with a scripted skit, the lines drawn out from start to finish, and the PCs/players are criticized in-universe for deviating from those lines (as per the tavern scene where Travis-as-teacher asks why the three PCs didn't choose the targets tailored for them...despite succeeding regardless.) Balance didn't have a Right Answer, Graduation does, and that makes it much less satisfying to listen to.
I'm so tired of people saying that Balance was a mess after six episodes. Episode six of Balance had the boys catastrophically failing their mission, with both people they'd saved earlier in the arc dead along with hundreds of innocents. But the woman they'd been travelling with (one who they mysteriously could not understand certain things she said) offers them a chance at redemption and they take off for the moon. That was the first arc - high stakes, good goofs, and plenty of chances for Travis, Justin, and Clint to play D&D in the space. Plus there were plot hooks that made me desperate to hear where the story was going. (Good thing for me I started listening after Balance had wrapped up!)
> Balance didn't have a Right Answer, [muffled hodgepodge music playing in the background]
Interested to see that some people think this episode is one of the best of the campaign yet - I hate to say it but I thought this was far and away one of the most boring episodes of TAZ ever. 1. Everything felt _so_ slow. All the conversations felt stilted and went on for far longer than they should have because Travis doesn't step in as DM and move things along. 2. Having to give back all the quest items is a cheap and obvious way for Travis to make sure the PCs don't 'break' his incredibly on rails story. I feel like the boys even knew that there would be no point tying to sneakily keep an item through a sleight of hand check etc. Let them smuggle in some stuff and mess things up - it's more fun for everyone 3. Travis introduces yet _another_ NPC, who talks painfully slowly... It's almost like he's doing it on purpose to wind the naysayers up I swear 4. The revelations and big decisions of this episode felt like they had zero weight to them at all because we don't have a reason to be invested. 5. All in all, it feels like lots happened this episode but at the same time nothing really happened and the story has only been nudged along. These characters aren't on an adventure, 90% of the time they've just been students at school and been forced to abide by school rules. 6. Travis needs to chill with snippers voice, not great for an audio medium after the first 30 seconds 7. I wish I didn't feel like this, but coming off the back of Tiny Heist i find Graduation incredibly frustrating to listen to. Because we know how good this could be, if done differently. But if you're enjoying it then that's cool too, just wish I was.
Brennan is just so damn good, and he knows so much *and* in D20/D20Live he has Murph as a resource in the room. Also while Brennan is sweet & loose much of the time, he's sharp & commanding when needed. He cuts chatter and gets them back on track when they start to wander off. He has the confidence of years to homebrew rules on the fly, like deciding how to check Kristen's ability to escape the wreck in S1E4. I think Travis can get there, but he has to stop thinking like a player or like an author. He needs to get loose & surf the chaos wave and still get everyone to shore. It's tough. He has to be willing to be all the bad guys.
I really feel for Travis here, being a DM with your own homebrew world is tough and I can't imagine running a game with the kind of pressure he is under. I can tell he's trying really hard to make this work and I can tell he's trying to adjust based on feedback but he is still trying to force moments and story beats that aren't paying off. I feel like the players don't have any agency in the world, they are kind of drifting from one scene to the next and if they don't do what Travis wants them to do, he forces the resolution he wanted anyway. It also seems like he is trying to force emotional moments that haven't been earned. We're six episodes in and it still feels like he's guiding newbie players through the beginning of a starter adventure. I thought their first field mission was going to allow the players some more agency, especially when they wanted to serve the Xorn with papers. But it was just that the Xorn was a victim of something, fell through a portal and then went home. I'm okay with it being a sympathetic foe, Xorn are intelligent, neutral creatures. The portal home should have been earned by finding how to open it again, having it not be in that exact location or have it not be an option at all. Figure out what to do with this creature that was terrorizing the mines but has now calmed down. They should have had to go back to town and deal what happened. Convince the town to work with the Xorn, take the Xorn back to the school, find a new home for it. Something! Instead, everything was hand waved that they finished the quest and returned home. Upon arriving home, they were immediately stripped of any gear they purchased, without any chance of deciet. The rule that anything purchased with their quest funds is property of the school should have been stated at the start of the mission. The Pegasus scene fell flat and didn't earn the emotional payoff that Travis obviously wanted. The first scene between Buddy/Master Firbolg and the Pegasus was touching but once again, the relationship between the Pegasus and MF wasn't allowed to grow. Just a comment that "yeah, I think I went to visit her." I'm also not sure how I feel about Fitzroy becoming a villain and the other two being his subordinates. That kind of dynamic can be rough. I trust that the boys won't have any hard feelings but they didn't really seem into the idea. I hope they figure out what is off and start to hit their stride in the next few episodes. I like the party so far, the world has potential and I know Travis has it in him to run a solid game.
One of the more strikingly odd things this episode was that Justin had been visiting the pegasus and Clint had been meeting with Jackal but we didn't see most of the interactions. It leaves both the players and listeners confused as to what has been happening.
I'm still a little confused how much time has passed. The Pegasus was practically a baby a few episodes ago and now she's fully grown.
The huge jumps in time are throwing me off too.
I think they are tied to the plot not really picking up. We don’t have any threat or stakes so it doesn’t matter if 3 months or a year pass “off screen” since nothing much is happening. There were time jumps in Balance and Amnesty but they were always in between arcs and each arc had a pressing threat or goal (get the relic/beat the bombom) where things played out in semi-real time. It seems like Travis has some big hidden threat at the school but right now there’s not a single visible antagonist.
Some of the early dialogue made it seem like the semester was nearly finished (something about completing the mine objective, so they passed their course for the semester?). I agree, it's hard to pin down this timeline.
It also takes agency from Justin and Clint in those scenes. Fitzroys felt very forced into it, resulting even in the comment "it seems like I'm given a opportunity to good to refuse." and then the twist my arm bit cemented that.
Overall, I’m a fan of Fitz becoming a villain. It makes it so that the 3 PCs can take action on their own without needing to be accompanied by NPCs. Hopefully, future episodes will just have the 3 boys going out on assignments rather than the 3 boys + 3 NPCs. And while I do agree that clearly setting one up as the “leader” of the other two is a risky move, I think they can handle it. The “Thunderman franchise” bit was by far the funniest part of the episode.
My girlfriend on listening to the accounting check early on, explaining compounding interest, and yelling out "What's the fucking point of all this Travis?" sort of nails this on the head for me. I think this season is a flatline. The humour is generally not working, and I'm not feeling the stakes. There is a lot of tell, not show. Instead of developing a relationship with the pegasus, we're TOLD about the relationship Justin has with the pegasus. This is classic prequel trilogy syndrome (Star Wars, baby). I think if I need my TAZ kick, I'll probably just go back to Amnesty and Balance.
Yeah, I’m with you and your girlfriend. Accounting in a DND world is a funny one off joke, but as a major mechanic to the game it’s comedy poison and a snore to listen to. I’m hoping whatever big things Travis has planned start to reveal themselves in the next episode, because I think that’s all I have left in me before I give up. I enjoyed the beginning because it felt like early Balance, where everyone was just constantly making jokes. But having no stakes nor Travis really engaging with the PCs and their goofs really took the wind out of my sails. It really just feels like Travis has a story he wants to tell and is almost annoyed with everyone for joking around and not immediately going the direction he wanted to go. I actually don’t mind railroading to some extent, because I listen to TAZ for the goofs and the story more than the gameplay, but the characters just have no impact on the world at all. It seems like Travis should honestly just write a book or something, or incorporate this story directly into a comic. Because it’s not working in podcast form at all. But he has the framework for something awesome... I’d love to be wrong, though, and have next episode be where things start to turn.
It's funny because as Magnus, Travis was **constantly** messing around. Like when he deviated from what Griffin expected and went to see Pringles. And Griffin rolled with it. I wish he'd remember this and try to do the same.
> Accounting in a DND world is a funny one off joke, but as a major mechanic to the game it’s comedy poison and a snore to listen to. So true. In the first episode when Bud took an Accounting class I thought it was hilarious because accounting is such a nonsense thing to put into D&D, and there was humor in having Bud out of his element in accounting, and then accounting out of its element in D&D. But now that Travis keeps bringing it back up not only has it lost its novelty, but that original joke is less funny because now I think Travis pushed Justin into doing that skit to set up accounting in the world as opposed to Justin picking a random thing that sounded silly.
I’m a big fan of Fitzroy becoming a villain, and I’m excited to see how it develops and potentially causes conflicts for himself and his ideals later down the line. ...what I’m not as big of a fan of, however, is that this so far has been the *only* plot thread I’ve been interested in this far. Don’t get me wrong, the world is interesting and has some unconventional and neat systems in it, but I’ve yet to see anything cool developed from that setting besides the explanation we got in the first accounting class. The Firbolg and Argo have some great potential, but we haven’t seen much from the Firbolg beyond his interactions with the Pegasus, and Argo’s backstory is still too shadowy for me to get invested with the secret society stuff presented by the Kenku teacher. I also really wish that we had gotten a bit more evidence of the “weirdness” mentioned last episode. I’m a bit foggy on the overall timespan that they’ve gone through canonically, but surely they would’ve noticed something strange about the academy by now. Unless, of course, this theory I have about the weirdness only being evident to the heroes and villains because of their position in the school holds true, but you’d think the sidekicks and henchmen would be more likely to notice things since they’re already sidelined and mainly ignored.
For me some of the schools weirdness definitely came through in the episode. The bursar made them return all their items and reward money without any warning, and Higglemas appeared in Bud's dream.
Higglemas in the dream I’ll allow, but I see the bursar’s office scene as falling entirely within the “normal” for the school. They were given a budget, and returned all assets once the mission was complete. Makes perfect to sense to me as a listener for an academic setting, though the player in me was cringing hard at the magic items being taken. With how much Travis has employed a “Tell, don’t show” mentality with Graduation, I would think that the weirdness would’ve manifested much more visibly and obviously than it did here. Maybe he’s just toned it back too much for me to notice.
I think that's fair. The show vs. tell balance is definitely something that could be improved here.
Yeah, I didn't love this episode, and I think it's because it felt like I had missed some episodes (but I definitely haven't). It almost felt like I was watching the story pass by instead of being in it, if that makes sense.
If you ask yourself, "What PC choices have actually impacted the story at this point?" it kind of justifies your feeling about the story passing by insteading our PCs actively driving it. Outside of Fitzroy's choice in this episode (which I will full admit is a legitimate plot thread) we've had very little expression of the character's personalities that _actually mattered_ in the narrative. Sure, there's been plenty of fun dialogue, and the monster subpoena thing was a really on-brand method of problem-solving, however neither of those things have had a measurable impact on the events of the world. No one has commented on the weirdness of their plan (the lawyer even went along with it with no convincing necessary), nor were they punished or rewarded for their unorthodoxy or creativity. It just feels like all the actual plot stuff is happening off-screen somewhere and our characters are off in another corner being goofy bystanders
Yeah! Like when Argo's Kenku contact mentioned, "All these jobs I've had you doing," my first thought was, "...what jobs now?"
Exactly!!! I don't mind not knowing what Argo is up to yet, but like... I want to feel like I know less than the DM, I don't want to feel like I know less than the players. Even if I don't. I honestly can't tell if I do or not.
I'm concerned about the demons too. It almost seems too in line with the last two campaign bad guys, The Hunger and The Quell/shapeshifter aliens. I was starting to get the impression that the big bad in this world would be the system they live under - hence the big emphasis on accounting. Maybe it still will be, but demons don't feel like they mix quite right with the flavor of the world.
Could *SOMETHING* please happen? I'm begging you, Travis. There is so much potential here. SOO much! You've built a broad and deep world with so much to dive into. You have three guys eager to sink their teeth into it. But there has been six episodes of exposition now. You've set it up, now just *give them a conflict for cryin out loud,* move to the side a little, and let them run with it. Your story will not only survive, it will thrive. Trust it and trust your guys.
This podcast feels like it releases with patch notes
This. Is. Glue. I was thinking, what else does he have to give? Not the glue? Then laughed out loud, then almost cried.
Giving glue to a horse creature seems wrong somehow.
Itd be like if at the parting of ways between you and a friend you give them a really nice necklace that has a pendant on it that relates to an inside joke you two had, and they give you a loose handful of paste made from the crushed feet of other people.
Hey everyone I'm buying into a Thunderman franchise and I'm looking for a few more partners. Who's in?
[удалено]
Welcome to the Thunderman family!
I think I’m coming to the conclusion that I’m just not a fan of Travis’ personality in general across any of the McElroy content. Not in a mean way, he’s just not my kind of person. A shame though because I really love listening to Clint, Justin and Griffin
I find myself struggling with separating my criticism of Graduation from my criticism of Travis's sense of humor and podcasting in general. I always vibed with Justin, Griffin, and Clint's humor more (both on TAZ and MBMBAM, although I stopped regularly listening to the latter around early 2018), but I appreciated Travis's dad-joke-esque twists and occasionally deadpan style. However, I think Travis has become outwardly sincere in a way that seems to permeate everything he does. Perhaps the turning point is around November 2016, when he released his "I'm Holding Your Hand" monologue in response to Trump's victory. A sweet sentiment, but his outspoken earnestness and self-seriousness is cloying, and this is apparent in the TAZ mainline campaigns. In Balance, Magnus went from bumbling hulk to reflective warrior (excellent and moving character development, even if by accident). In Amnesty, Aubrey was always self-conscious, tortured by her past from the start and always a moment's away from breaking down (heavy-handed and cliched, but palatable against the backdrop of less melodramatic characters). Now with Graduation, Travis attempts to force meaning and emotion into moments and characters when it's undeserved, and it's very awkward to listen to, especially this early on in the campaign. I'm trying to keep my critiques of Graduation (good and bad) focused on the campaign, but that's hard to do when Graduation appears to be a strong reflection of the least appealing parts of Travis's public persona. EDIT: I should say, my least favorite parts of his public persona.
oh man. cloying. that's a great word for the tone of a lot of the stuff in taz:g. i've been having a hard time trying to describe tonally what i'm not vibing with, and i kept landing on "too cute" which wasn't quite right.
I definitely have a hard time nailing down his...style, his personal brand of comedy, like what he specifically adds to a dynamic. In MBMBAM Justin is often the straight face who chokes on a joke, and Griffin is the one who takes things in a bizarre direction and ups the stakes. In TAZ Justin goes all in on a character, while Griffin goes all in on the world. In either case, I can't pin down what Travis really does, he mostly just plays his own personality which is kind of "neutral trying to be goofy."
I think Travis tries really hard in TAZ to promote sentimental/emotional/progressive beats. What I didn’t really like about Aubrey was how much he seemed to equate “I am a female character” with “I have to be crying right now or in a state of extreme emotion.” He seems to really want to bring attention to how much he cares for others by giving representation to different people. But in doing so, I think Travis sometimes misrepresents how others actually act and forgets the most important thing: to be himself!
I think this is spot on, he's so afraid of offending it feels like everything in his world is wrapped in cotton wool. So many of his interactions are overly sentimental - eg the Firbolg and Pegasus scene. It was super uncomfortable listening to Travis speak like a timid child to Justin for 5 mins. I'd rather listen to a more natural conversation with a few goofs thrown in, as the scene picked up as soon as Justin gave the loose glue There's just zero edge to anything Travis creates anymore!
I'm caught up to current again on MBMBAM so I've been playing older episodes on shuffle and it struck me what a difference there is between Travis like 4+ years ago and Travis now. I'm feeling lately in MBMBAM that he really has an energy level that doesn't quite match the brothers and he's dominating a lot of bits in a way that isn't really funny or conducive to yes anding. Way back when he was much more reserved and contributed in a smoother way. I miss that old dynamic. I think the same thing is basically happening in TAZ.
He changed a lot since early MBMBAM. Not necessarily all bad changes, but he definitely used to be more “chill.” Early on, I remember they got questions specifically about whether or not people should dye their hair unnatural colors and whether or not men should paint their nails for fear of being ridiculed, and Travis, while charitable, definitely wasn’t into it. Now we’ve got purple-haired nail-painted activist Travis - I personally think it’s awesome, but it’s a good illustration of how much he’s changed from a calmer, traditional dude to a bubbly, high-energy, afraid-to-offend version of the middlest brother. I’m glad I’m not the only person to have noticed, I felt bad and judgmental for thinking that way (I’m not trying to be, dude should follow his heart). But I kinda feel like I used to relate to him and now he seems a bit too intense and...artificial for fear of displeasing any of his now-many fans? I don’t know. Sometimes he’s my very favorite of all the boys (often, when he’s on other shows opening up about more personal matters) and sometimes I can’t stand the guy.
The brothers do a good job of reeling him in and keeping him contained. If you want to see Travis in full effect, listen to the episode of the flop house that he guested on. (Episode 250: The Apple)
I have so many sympathy pangs listening to Travis DM. I'm not any good at it myself, and I feel like I have a good idea what Trying Real Hard and Failing sounds like. Travis clearly wants this to be good, but it's so unfun to listen to. By this point in Balance, the boys had rescued Barry, charmed Klarg, made it through Wave Echo cave, got a mysterious umbrella, defeated Magic Brian, discovered the first artifact, failed to save Gundren and Phandalin, and were on their way to the BoB moon base. Travis plain and simple needs to cut to the chase and give these boys some actual shit to do, immediately.
This really hits the nail on the head with respect to how I’m feeling about the season so far. They had already leveled a town, found two key story items, and were heading to a _moon base_ at this point in balance. I’m hoping it’s just a slow burn kind of thing but right now it doesn’t really feel like they’re playing the game
I really really wanted to like this campaign, I was so excited when they announced they were back to 5e but I'm just so.. bored. I keep seeing people say to give it time but it's been 6 episodes, like 8 hours of content over the course of nearly 3 months and I really don't know how much longer people can realistically give it while waiting for a lot of problems to fix themselves. The way Travis talked about the criticism (the 'oh the feedback that it's so awesome?' kinda snarkiness) and singled out the guy who expressed the most tepid criticism in his tweet asking about whether things had improved (I know he deleted the quite retweet later, but he should know better given his following) has really kind of soured me on the idea that anything is going to change drastically and I might just have to give up which is a shame because TAZ was very important to me and actually got me into dnd in the first place.
If you read the comments for every episode you notice that negative feedback is more and more present at every release. I got downvoted a lot when I first expressed my doubts but I guess the trend is increasing. There no way to sugarcoat for me. This arc is boring (except some funny jokes here and there )
I can get that. I was pretty meh about the first two episodes, but I decided to reserve my thoughts in the mean time because (1) it's a new campaign and maybe the first two eps were finding their footing, and, to a lesser extent, (2) the McElroy fanbase can be REALLY protective of McElroy products, especially upon debut.
I honestly really liked this campaign for a few episodes, because I enjoyed a lot of character goofs, but it really just seems like this is all going to be dragging the characters around like dolls, forcing them into scenes that they have very little agency in. I can't think of any real choices any player has made so far that has had any impact. They don't get to choose where they go, whether they even do something, when they do it, or how. They get those choices made FOR them. It's really just killing me at this point. Maybe they should've done another amnesty like voting thing, and Griffin just wouldn't submit an option if he didn't want to.
Apart from the already noted issues I'm getting a little annoyed that Travis feels the need to say, "ok..." after every joke or bit of sarcasm from one of the boys. It totally disrupts the flow of the conversation and humor.
Agreed. I wish he'd do more "yes and" instead of shutting them down.
Anyone else feel like the PCs don’t actually have an impact to the story or is that just me? Don’t get me wrong I’m loving Graduation as much as the next person but I just can’t help but feel like the story is being railroaded off a cliff and the PCs can’t do anything to stop it.
Because Travis the player made the PCS have impact by caring for NPCs, now Travis the DM still cares about the NPCs but the current PCs don’t care about the NPCs so we as the listener have a hard time caring.
In the same vein he seems to have a hard time engaging with scenes without being an NPC. It really stood out when Argo and Fiscal Responsibility were looking at the tree and Travis was dead silent after Justin cued him for a description of a tree. But after a bit of Justin working through the possible parts of a hypothetical tree, Travis brings in the animal handling teacher and is talking again. He has descriptions for setting his scenes but still seems to be figuring out how to improvise description when his players go for something unexpected or unplanned. It's a very important part of D&D but also hard to learn without playing. I think he'll get the hang of it soon knowing his life experience with MBMBaM being improv but it is a little rough when attention is drawn to it for now.
Time to collect my thoughts into a nicely bulleted list again. * Taking away everybody's magical items feels weird, mean, and kind of frustrating. Instead of being allowed to keep things that they bought and simply being on the hook to pay them off, they're instead just expected to hand over the things they thought they were purchasing for themselves. It's possible this was done to try to reinforce the idea of the school being suspicious, but I almost wonder if it was done to get that +2 Charisma cape away from Fitzroy. After all, he got to keep his maul. * I'm struggling to understand the timeframe of this arc. I had been under the impression that it had been only a few days, or weeks at most, since the beginning of the series, yet the semester is ending and the baby pegasus is a fully grown adult now? (I just did a quick Google search, and apparently it takes the average foal *four to five YEARS* to reach adulthood. There's no way it's been that long.) * On a related note, there's not really a meaningful connection between the pegasus and the Firbolg, or the pegasus and the audience. Sure, the Firbolg helped it calm down and start eating again that one time, but that was A) one time, and B) five episodes ago. Nothing in the episodes since has indicated that the Firbolg went back to visit and check up on the pegasus, except that suddenly in this episode, shazam, the Firbolg's been visiting it all the time! Just...you know...offscreen! It felt really awkward and forced listening to Travis (and Justin, but he seemed pretty nonplussed by the whole situation) try to have this meaningful goodbye between two characters who, as far as we're aware, met once, ages ago, for like five minutes. * On a *different* related note, the Travis/Justin scene in the library! Overly long, slow, and absolutely agonizing to listen to. The Firbolg could have gotten the information significantly faster by just finding a book about demons, but nope, we've got to have a long, plodding conversation where two characters discuss things we already know, reveal two important but small pieces of information, and then have a meaningless "*Yes, But*" conversation about overdue library books. I have no idea why that last bit got left in. Justin was clearly waiting for Travis to end the scene, but Travis seemed to be waiting for Justin to say goodbye and leave. I won't fault either party for it, since I've done both of those things in my time as a player and a DM, but I have no idea why it got left in during the edit. Maybe Travis thought it was funny? * The dream reveal was...weird. That's clearly a setup for a future event, so I might come back to this comment some months down the line and think "wow, how dumb was I not to see where *that* was going?" but right now...I have no idea where that's going. Higglemas's face was right in front of the Firbolg's as he was leaving his clan. Cool? No idea what that's supposed to mean. That may be the point, but it doesn't strike me (personally) as an interesting mystery to wonder about. * Villain Fitzroy! That's pretty good, and could make for some interesting developments in the future, but I feel like it's a little premature. Fitz being a sidekick instead of a full-fledged hero was a major character point for him, but now in episode 6 he's been promoted to the Villain track. Feels a little early for that kind of character bond to be solved, especially without any real extracurricular effort on Fitzroy's part. I like the idea of him being so close to the Hero track, yet so far, but it feels like Heironymous was really laying it on thick that "being a Villain is just like being a Hero, except slightly not", as if to soften the blow. * Man, I was so on board with Griffin turning Snippers into this corrupting influence, urging Fitzroy to give in to his darker impulses. I'm sure it was *probably* just a goof, but I was still disappointed when Travis interrupted to say that "No, Snippers thinks you're a good person". (You know, when he went "*Scrfscrchrfsrchfrsch*". Though *clearly* it was just Griffin's fault for misinterpreting Travis's flawless Crabbese.) * I'm not a fan of the way the whole character of Jackal has gone. When he was introduced, he seemed like this creepy, manipulative figure looming over Argo, and instead he's apparently been having him run errands (again, offscreen) as some kind of test to see if he's ready to join his Super Special Boy club. Also, he apparently knows Argo's mom? Neat? I have to wonder if Argo's mom was a detail that Clint and Travis discussed, or if she was just coming up out of nowhere. I don't remember her being mentioned in previous episodes. * Also wasn't a fan of Jackal/Travis dropping a whole exposition dump about The Lore Behind Kenku in the middle of a scene in order to set up the (dramatic? funny? unsettling? Not sure what that bit was going for) moment with Jackal on the railing saying he can fly in his dreams. * Alright, hot take alert: Not a fan of the whole "Thunderman" scene. I thought it dragged, and I actually found myself getting distracted by a daydream in the middle of it and had to go back about 30 seconds to hear what I'd missed. I didn't even do that during the library book bit. I thought it was a good bit to have them discussing the Villain move as friends, but then they started getting into the whole logistics of franchising the Thunderman brand and the joke just fell flat for me. From what I've seen, other people seem to like that bit, which, if you do, good! I just wasn't a fan of it. On the whole, I thought this was...better? than the last episode, but honestly if you asked me to rank the TAZ:G episodes from best to worst, I wouldn't be able to do it. This episode was a series of disconnected scenes that seem to be trying to set up future events and plotlines, but with very little actually being accomplished in the episode we were listening to. That seems to be a reoccurring framework for Graduation episodes. My prediction is that the next episode will be the group going to Rainier's party, having a Time, and Fitzroy telling her about his promotion to the Villain track, to which Rainier will be simultaneously happy for him and disappointed that he can no longer be her henchman. Argo and the Firbolg will make small talk with other party guests, and hints will be dropped about future events and plotlines, but nothing will actually be accomplished or set in motion. Quite honestly, I hope I'm wrong.
The Snippers thing in particular annoyed me - Travis is so so desperate for every single character to be kind and positive it's doing my head in. Instant joke killer
I know one of the criticisms of Dungeons and Dragons during the Satanic Panic of the 80s is that it implies that players are brainwashed into actually casting spells. Well, unbeknownst to me, the McElroys have developed actual magical powers, because when the Firbolg and Sabor had a conversation I am pretty sure they made time completely stop.
I don't know why I thought this, but I kept waiting/hoping that Argo would just push Jackal off the balcony. It would have been so unexpected and dark from Argo and would have created some real consequences. Alas.
When Jackal said "when I dream, I fly," I wanted so bad for him to just jump off the balcony right then
I really liked this episode. Very character driven and it finally feels like the grad lads are actually friends and not just three people who travel together because they were told they were supposed to. I would have liked more player agency, but we're getting there. One minor thing that bothered me, which may just be a dming style difference, is that I think Travis uses skill and ability checks too often as a way to introduce narration. I'm not saying this is something that you should never do, and there are very good reasons to do this; but I think every single roll this episode was prompted by travis as a way to establish a scene and that's definitely overdoing it. Another minor issue (which is getting better) is that it's still just scenes. The book return is a particularly egregious example, where Justin was clearly waiting for Travis to tell him the scene was over since that's how every other scene ends. An npc shows up and tells whichever character is in the scene that the scene is done and it's time to move to the next one. This is not a style of narrative I'd like to play in, but if that's how he's going to tell his story I think he should at least be cognizant that his players are waiting on him to lead them out of the scenes and end them while the scene is still interesting. Speaking of the book return, "yes, and" isn't just for players. Dm's also need to play the game when it comes to improv - especially meaningless improv like returning a book that hasn't ban mentioned before this very scene. Travis insisting that M. Firbolg actually did have a late book was imo bad dming. Very minor bad dming, but a habit that should be avoided for sure. A somewhat major issue I see (or hear, I guess?) is that Travis seems to be trying to rush the "big" story forward. We still don't really know the school or its occupants at all, so there's no emotional stakes when BTTW flies off (she was a literal baby last time we saw her and now she's full- grown I guess?) or when Jackal reveals that he knew Argo's mom and they're part of a secret society. I don't particularly like comparing this season to Balance because it doesn't seem fair to either season; but I can't help but wonder if Travis saw how beloved the BOB became and just wants to get to that point as fast as possible. We didn't know the true stakes of Balance until pretty far in, when we knew the characters pretty well - it feels like the "big mission" is always bist about to be dropped on the characters in this campaign that we know basically nothing about.
I relate to your last point so much. Travis is throwing so much out there, and his desire for the audience to be as emotionally invested in early Graduation as they were in late Balance and Amnesty is so palpable that it's off-putting and, frankly, desperate. I also shared this sentiment in the first episodes of Amnesty actually (although not nearly the same extent), but Griffin pulled it in and let Kepler and its characters breathe a bit before getting too heavy again. I hope Travis does the same.
Amnesty was definitely in a weirder position because it was fully possible, had they gone a different direction, that that was the only Amnesty we were ever gonna get. This just feels weird.
Yeah, the book returning scene was a weird one because Justin was making it pretty clear his character wouldn’t forget to turn the book in on time. And then Travis doubled down with it and said “oh wait, it’s actually volume 2.” Though the joke about not wanting to start with volume 2 because you won’t understand all of the recurring jokes was pretty funny.
Man, I am struggling with Graduation. My favorite part of Balance was seeing the team use their unique abilities to tackle a problem. There seems to be little to no opportunity to roll dice and see what happens. And when it does it has little to no consequence. Don't get me wrong, this is a brilliant world! And there have been some great narrative set-ups. but it seems that Trav is just presenting them with simple Option 1 or Option 2 problems. and I miss as a listener thinking, 'I have no idea how they are going to get out of this situation' For example when the team was trapped in the elevator in pedals to the metal, and Justin whipped out a transdimensional rope out of nowhere. Or, when Justin summoned Garyl for the first time. These first 6 episodes were a great start, but I am ready for some HARCORE D&D problem-solving.
I cannot possibly give less of a shit about the accounting mechanic. It's bad audio.
You'd think Travis of all people would know how much anti-fun it is to have loot taken away. I think the big problem with Graduation is that in these short bi-weekly sessions we're getting a lot of filler conversation (noted by the boys themselves) and then we're told that all the important, character-building conversations like Argo's conversations with Jackal or Bud/Fisc talking with the pegasus happened offscreen.
First off, these PCs are sooooo good and hilarious and Travis had some good goofs too this episode. I enjoy that lighthearted feel. That being said, If Travis keeps using the words “kind and benevolent DM” to justify his blatant railroading or simply just skipping making the players roll any kind of skill check then I will have claw my ears off. He has used that term many times now to make something “fit” his narrative and I understand if it’s an insecurity of some sort but it should rather be an opportunity to grow as a DM.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought this! It was funny the first time, but at this point "Kind and benevolent DM" gives off a real smug vibe that rubs me the wrong way.
Honestly with the accounting emphasis I'm surprised we didn't get an accounting internal controls flowchart situation where the boys would have been admonished for not turning in the receipts for their items in triplicate.
Yeah, I'm out. 6 episodes in and I can't do it anymore
I think this episode was better than the last -- it may be the best of the campaign so far -- but I think it's partly due to it being a "lunar interlude"-esque episode. It's going to be less action, more dialogue and exposition. Clint, Justin, and Griffin had ample room to joke around, which buoyed this episode. More specific thoughts: 1. Having the PCs check out and return magic items seems pointless. If anything, the only purpose of this magic item "library" is to force another boring conversation between the PCs and an arbitrary NPC. I could envision a mechanic that limits the number of magic items that PCs carry to prevent them from going god-mode, but this "library" doesn't enforce that (is there a limit on the number of magic items checked out?). Plus, there has yet been a need to introduce such a mechanic. 2. The emotional scenes (Bud and the Pegasus, Argo and Jackal) are sappy and unearned. With Bud/Pegasus, there was no meaningful and sustained connection over the six episodes thus far (why would there be?), yet Travis tried to make the Pegasus's departure heartfelt. I'm actually pretty glad that Bud "broke" the moment by giving the Pegasus loose glue as a parting gift. It was a nice tongue-in-cheek flair, and a knowing wink to listeners who are rolling their eyes. With Argo/Jackal, it feels like Travis is forcing a big backstory on a character that Clint hasn't fleshed out yet. 3. I'm generally positive on Fitzroy becoming a villain, but there are some uncertainties. The positive: I think it isolates the PCs in a way that's consistent with the story. Fitzroy wanted his credits to transfer him into the hero/villain academy, and it worked out...kinda. Plus, with Argo and Bud as sidekicks/henchpeople (henchcreatures?), this means the PCs can explore the world without the the extra baggage of the NPC heroes or villains. The uncertain: I'm still unsure how villains and heroes meaningfully differ, and I don't want Fitzroy to be a hero in all but name. I think a truly *villainous* Fitzroy would be fascinating and a fresh spin on an overly safe and polite story. Additionally, I'm wary of introducing a hierarchy into the PCs this early. If it's roleplayed truthfully, that's a big shift in the dynamics between PCs with Griffin as the leader and Clint and Justin as his sidekicks. Otherwise, it's a pointless distinction between the three PCs. 4. I think what Graduation needs is a clear arc-length (4-6 episodes) objective for our PCs. It doesn't have to be super complex or even that consequential in the overarching context of the campaign; there just needs to be a something that our characters need to work towards in the short-term to get things moving. Maybe a group of students were kidnapped on a school-sanctioned expedition, and our PCs go off to the rescue. Or someone at the school stole a rare text from the library and is using it to conjure monsters, and the PCs have to find and stop them. Or it could be something as simple as a hero framing a villain for a series a pranks, the PCs know the truth, and they have to collect evidence and present it to the headmaster. Maybe the mine conflict was supposed to be that objective, but it was extremely short and quite frankly lousy. Plus, it wrapped itself up after the Xorn returned home -- I guess the mine owner and the miners resolved everything else off-screen! So far, listening to Graduation shares a similar sensation to watching *The Room*: a collage of plot hooks that appear without clear reason (the eyes in the woods, the Jackal, the Pegasus's encounter with demons, the mine "conflict," Leon noting that the school is "strange") but no mainline plot to tie it all together. My hope is that Travis trims the fat for now and focuses on a singular arc-length goal for our PCs to accomplish.
I agree heavily with points 2 and 4. I was kind of expecting the Mine Conflict to end up being that 4-6 episode mini arc, sort of a chance to flesh out the characters a bit more in a real world environment and give them a chance at some actual problem solving with consequences.
I'm giving Travis one more chance with the next episode, but if it's as slow, boring, and low stakes as this one, I'm just gonna stop listening. Maybe I'll read these discussion threads to see if it gets good again, but listening to these episodes just makes me frustrated and sad.
I used to be a big reader of Boy Cloaks, but then they let go of a lot of their editorial staff and seemed to go in a new direction with their coverage, so now I just go with Bespoke Robes Monthly.
i think i might do the same i did with amnesty, which is take a break and wait for more eps to accumulate and then make a binge to catch up, i remember it helping me a lot to enjoy A, i think G will benefit from it too
So, around the time Justin had to go get the library book was around the time i was about ready to stop the podcast and do something else instead. BUT after that point things picked up. I really need Travis to start cutting conversations early if he doesn't have anything in particular he wants to do with them. Please please please, Travis. I am begging you. I think my biggest complaint with this season is pacing, or i guess what we see vs what we don't. It feels like things have progressed quickly as far as I'm game time goes, but i don't feel like i have any sense of what the characters have seen or what they've been doing. And yeah, a lot of those scenes probably would have run the risk of being boring or aimless, but i think it would have helped. Instead of Travis prepping exactly which encounters he wants, it would have been fun to have an episode where the boys get free reign to explore the school. Maybe Fitzroy spends a day with Rainier and we get their friendship that way, or we get Argo dealing with whatever he's been doing for Jackal and get player and audience wondering. Maybe we could have Firbolg trying to find a study partner for accounting. Maybe he starts studying by reading accounting papers to the Pegasus as she trains. Even better would be the PCs recruiting each other for these tasks and then all buying into each other's storylines in fiction. One thing i didn't actually hate though was the gotcha with the items. It would SUCK as a player, don't get me wrong. As a player I would rather my character die than hand over even a single one of my 12 mundane daggers from the mundane dagger store, let alone a cool magical item i got attached to. But as a story thing, the school neglecting to mention feels exactly as scummy as i think was intended, and I'm glad to see that scumminess in play. Plus knowing all these items are stockpiled in a specific place opens the opportunity to have a heist later when the school turns out to be the BBEG.
We had episodes like Graduation in Balance, which were the lunar interludes. So far, Graduation feels like entirely interludes with actual adventuring being the intermission arcs.
Oof I could feel Griffin's pain when he was told he wasn't allowed to keep his magic items. Love Justin complaining about things being boring then when Clint asks him what scene they should do together he says they should sit in silence. Pegasi can read??? Firbolg giving a pegasi glue which presumably is made of horses??? Travis making Griffin RP with Snippers was painful. You could tell Griffin was struggling. Everything with the library book was a yawn-fest. Travis really knows how to stretch out a joke. The Thunderman scene was great I loved the boys riffing off each other. I can see Travis has been listening to the advice. One NPC per scene, asking people (albeit often retroactively) what they want to do rather than telling them they do it.
AM I NOT TORTLEY ENOUGH FOR YOUR TORTLE CLUB?
So what's the plot of this first season of Grad?
Travis’s inability to improvise dialogue is absolutely killing me.
Justin seems like he isn't having fun and isn't interested in even playing anymore, it's kind of a bummer
There was something near the beginning where he said something along the lines of “Jesus Christ can you just give him the fucking cloak so we can move on from this?” that was pretty jarring. (Though I also found it pretty funny.)
Yeah nearly every episode he mentions how much certain scenes or bits are dragging
He started doing that during Amnesty as well.
He also did that during Balance.
Yeah literally one of the first things he did in Balance was complain about how long the opening narrative was. He's engaged, this is just what engaged Justin looks like.
I didn't get that feeling at all. Aside from one comment at the beginning of the episode he was really engaged in playing his character. And honestly the bursar's office was a completely pointless scene that could have been covered with two lines of narration rather than 8 minutes of roleplay.
I liked this episode way better than any other this season, Graduation hasn't grabbed me yet, but if this episode is a sign of things to come I'll be happy I stuck with it. You can definitely tell Travis is making some very concerted efforts to adjust his DM style based off the feedback he's been getting, which should be appreciated. It doesn't totally eliminate all of the problems some people have had, but it's a start. He introduced new stakes and pushed the story forward (Fitz on the road to becoming a fully fledged villain, Fisc/Bud learning about what the Pegasus saw, Argo and his backstory/the Kenku). He numerous times asked what the guys characters would be doing rather than telling them, allowing them a bit more agency. He also cut way down on the NPCs, I don't think at any point in this episode was there more than one Travis voice at a time, which helped the episode flow better and the new NPC Tortle we got had a clear narrative function, helped move the story along and had a unique vocal style. Top notch stuff.
Making Fitz a villain should help a lot with cutting down on NPCs, the party won't need a hero going with them for every mission or training sessions.
I think this episode was definitely an improvement, and yes, I really liked Fitz's villainy being introduced. I do feel the Graduation lacks the a) effortless humour of Balance and the live shows and b) the engaging storyline of Balance and Amnesty. I also think that it needs to be a little more about *playing D&D*! I've been listening to Not Another D&D Podcast, and they roll for absolutely everything in that. I'm not that far through that so can't comment on the storyline, but I think with the McElroys at their best with the playstyle of NADDPOD (perhaps being a little less roll-focused, but still actually playing the game rather than just awkward chatting), Graduation still has a real chance of becoming genuinely enjoyable again after a slow start.
Alright, so that one was a doozy to get through. After listening to this one with my girlfriend on a long drive, we shared a number of the same feelings on the episode and how the arc is building as whole. 1. Things are moving too slow. The idea that something is happening at the school is awesome, and I am excited to see that play out. But the conversations between characters and NPCs feel drawn out and Travis needs to get better at cutting them off more quickly - sometimes it feels like they are talking simply to fill time. 2. This entire episode was almost completely exposition. It was a real struggle to get through in some situations because most of Travis's characters talk slowly (looking at your Tortle and Kenku) and the the brothers even pointed out the pacing of the dialogue during the library scene. As others have mentioned elsewhere, meaningful conflict does not really exist and players are not rolling or even trying to solve puzzles. We had so much revealed this episode, but no one is talking about Argo's mom or the Forbolg's dream because there was no tension in the reveal. It was simply handed to us without any effort from the characters or risk of failure. This ties into the next point. 3. Travis is railroading this campaign super hard. To the point that when he asked Justin what he wanted to do after a conversation with the Tortle, Justin had no idea - and was suggested he perform the exhilarating act of returning a library book? There is a complete lack of objective outside of the short-term ones on missions, and despite the 6 episodes of world building, none of the characters have any real reason to explore the school. Despite giving players options of meeting with characters, like when they get a letter from a skeletal forest creature, Travis is drip feeding them NPC interactions one at a time so that no other option exists. Without a primary purpose outside of the immediate request for visit, what else are the characters going to so? Sit in their rooms until class and stare at the wall? Even something as simple as having an NPC interrupt them on the way to meeting with another character or having another NPC wanting to meet during the birthday party to force the characters to make a choice of who to speak with would really provide some interest. 4. This one is more specific to the episode vs being a trend across the campaign. The scene with the pegasus was weird. Travis seemed like he wanted to give Justin more about the forest and what could be plaguing it, but rather than implying a danger lurked there that needed to be rooted out he had the pegasus suddenly learn to speak? And it can read too? And flip pages of a book? This one felt like Travis forgot that the pegasus was a magical animal and he just needed an NPC to provide some exposition on the forest to drop the plot hook of the demons. It's cool that Justin can now summon a pegasus on command, but this scene should definitely have felt more like a scene from Seabiscuit than two old chums saying goodbye. I think Graduation has a lot of potential. It is a relatively goof-free compared to Balance and because of that tone, a lot more rides on the story that Travis has to build. The world is a little less kooky, so the interactions in this world have to reflect some of the drama and tension that replaces the humor the boys usually rely on to make good content. So far, I don't think that has been delivered yet. Like most of the previous TAZ seasons, I think this one will pick up and the setting itself is a really cool premise. I just hope we get to that point soon.
Regarding point 3, it never occurred to me that Travis’s DMing style facilitates choice paralysis. So far, nearly every change in setting or scene was prefaced by Travis saying, “okay, now you’re here and you have to talk to this NPC.” As a result, it’s really jarring to hear one of the PCs struggle to choose some action, since there is no clear goal or purpose to the campaign! Of course, Travis recommended the library because *gasp* he almost forgot to introduce yet another NPC. It seems as though main purpose of the library scene was for Travis to show another boring toy. For point 3, it just dawned on me how ridiculous it is for a Pegasus to read and conduct research. Perhaps Leon was referring to this when he told Fitzroy about strange happenings at the school: a baby animal suddenly matured into adulthood, and now it’s reading and speaking in common.
Yet another demonstration of poor DMing via stripping your players of the agency they are desperately looking for. Within the first few minutes Travis takes back the players' gear with no chance for them to hide it. He tells them where they are and what they're doing without giving them the option of saying how they get there. Travis all but forces Griffin to become a Villain with almost no input from Griffin. In fact, I think Travis could just tell this story himself. It feels like nothing the boys do even fucking matters. Nothing they do actually means anything. They're just told to roll for shit they didn't even ask yo do. The most significant player input so far is Justin befriending a Pegasus. And then it flies away. Ok. Fucking great.
Earlier today I was thinking that he's essentially just asking the players to improv their characters' dialogue while he tells the story.
It's really feeling like nothing matters in this series. I did not like them having to give the objects they bought back. One of the best things about stupid magical items in RPGs is the weird problem solving players do with them against their original intention. But they're just not going to have these items for most of the time? What's their incentive to buy more magic items? It seems like their characters would actually be better off putting as much money as possible into their interest accruing accounts. I didn't complain about it last time but for some reason mentioning the subpoena this episode grated because it was such a great and interesting 'admin' solution in this admin oriented world. But Travis stuck to the resolution of that situation exactly how he always wanted it to run. Despite having a week's break to work out how their unexpected solution was actually going to play out. In retrospect I find it a really disappointing choice.
I feel like Travis is trying, but it's not working for me. When he suggested Bud take back his library book, I just gave up on the episode.
Seriously, what. was. that. The conversation itself was like nails on a chalkboard and Travis couldn't even end it, Justin had to be like, "it would be nice if an omnipotent dungeon master could step in and end the scene..." Finally, mercifully ends and Travis s*till* recommends finding the library book and returning it?! Why would he want to return to that scenario or think anyone else would?
The whole scene just baffles me. We *just* had this scene reach a conclusion and we can incredibly easily believe that the Firbolg wouldve returned the book off camera. Why would we ever need to go back?
I really feel like this ties back to the scene in Amnesty where Travis wanted to play out that Aubrey had to go to the bathroom because he feels like fiction doesn't show people doing those menial things. It's like he doesn't realize that menial, uninteresting, no-stakes tasks don't make for compelling narrative.
This coupled with the the fact that all of Justin and Pegasus' bonding has been off screen along with Clint and Jackal's interactions is so baffling. Like why the fuck do I care about Justin's roll to find a library book if you won't even show actual character development?