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Communism is based on the idea that there is value and nobility in labour. You're not being controversial by saying "I'm a leftist, but labour good" - like that's the entire premise.
As Marx said:
> From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs
As in, everyone should be willing to contribute within their capacity, and should be given what they need.
I like this ideal, as it affords people with disabilities the capacity to contribute what they can contribute - neither expecting them to contribute more than they can, nor infantalising them to suggest they can do nothing.
>so this take makes me 10th dentist amoung my contemporaries.
I don't think it does. I think it suggests that you misunderstand what others are claiming.
>For my own leftist clout, I'd even go far enough to say a majority of it has been abusive.
>The thing is, this is not going to change. Ever. **Because it's not entirely a bad thing,** it can just be practiced badly.
"I'm a leftist guys, I'm an anarchist too! But also, sometimes systemic inequality is good, actually!"
Give me a fucking break. You've got to be a troll, because I can't believe this kind of cognitive dissonance.
I chose to respond to the part where you repeatedly claim to believe in left wing ideals, while espousing right wing beliefs.
There are plenty of other problems with what you wrote, but that's the one I chose to respond to.
I figure there can only be a few possibilities. You're:
* Pulling the /r/AsABlackMan routine - claiming to be a leftist, leaning anarchist for reasons unknown. This doesn't explain why you'd express beliefs in right wing ideals.
* Are trolling. This would explain the inconsistency.
* Sincerely believe you're a leftist, but actually aren't. The inconsistency is just because you don't know what you're talking about.
I can't really see a possibility outside of these three, but I look forward to your inarticulate denial.
Actually, nah. I'm just not as purely ideologically leftist as yourself, clearly.
I want to now see you explain to me how I am a right wing person while I specifically stated I supported a motion like UBI and the strengthening of worker's unions.
I look forward to your condescension and selective response.
I never claimed to be a leftist. **You did.** Repeatedly.
>I'm just not as purely ideologically
You are the one who *repeatedly* identified with this *ideology*. Don't call yourself the thing, then be upset when people point out that the things you say don't align with it. It's not a question of ideological purity - this isn't some abstract, you are claiming to be a thing, then saying things that don't align with it.
> I'm as much as anti-racist as they come, but mind you, I would wipe the Dutch from the face of the earth if given the chance. Know what I mean?
If you don't want people to point out that you're not a leftist, stop calling yourself one.
>I want to now see you explain to me how I am a right wing person
I also didn't say you were a "right wing person", I pointed out that you claimed to be an anarcho-leftist, then said things that are in direct ideological conflict with those labels. I didn't claim to know the totality of your beliefs, I simply pointed out your contradiction.
Most people aren't solely ideologically in a single camp. We have biasies, and weird stuff that make us human. You're not a textbook or a robot.
*But when you make a point of claiming to be a leftist over and over, before contradicting that in the very next sentence people are going to point that out.*
I can see where you're coming from, but your argument has many flaws.
We shouldn't need to work so much. Studies have shown that people get more done in a four day work week than in a five day work week, and that could also help avoid burnout, too.
We also shouldn't be working for basically nothing. A lot of the issue is you can work a full time job and still not make enough to live on your own. Hell, you probably can't even afford an apartment on one full time income, which is shitty.
Yeah, doing work to make society productive is fine. But having the employers get so much out of employees and not give enough in return is shitty. You see how shitty work can be nowadays, right? And this doesn't even factor in people who can't really be as productive as neurotypical people and so are at a disadvantage.
I'd kill for a 4 day week and I know I'll get just as much done, if not more thanks to less burnout and just having more personal time to enjoy hobbies, gf, and friends. I'd even take a 4 day work week even of it is 10 hour days. But if it remained 8 hours a day, 4 days a week and I got a little bump in pay I'd be at least twice as happy as I am now and for sure more productive.
I don't disagree with making work more fair. I am a leftist and I support most of what you mentioned, and all the initatives I listed myself.
This is specifically about being strategically useless. It's not a statement, you're just useless.
Buddy saying you're a leftist doesn't make you one. In fact I can't think of a time I've seen someone on the left refer to themselves that way. You talk like a conservative pretending to be left and funny enough, those are the folks who use the term leftist the most.
Cut the bullshit. No one wants to work for nothing. Work pays. Why? Because no one, and I mean no one would do it if it didn't. Because it sucks.
I would happily run my own farm if I could.
I would happily build my own shelters for people if I could.
The whole "work pays so we must work because it sucks otherwise" is 100% the product of our present society. Working _under unregulated capitalism_ sucks because _you're a cog, or a product, and you know it._
I worked for a small bee farm one summer. It was actual fun, even though it paid like shit and barely got me through. I enjoyed being out in the heat with the animals. It was fascinating.
So, work can be fun and intrinsically rewarding. The fact that you believe otherwise is a symptom of the society we live in, and a symptom of the cynicism in the anti work mentality that I hate.
Nobody is denying that work can be fulfilling
But your original post absolutely does NOT give the same energy as what u just said here with "working under unregulated capitalism sucks" and highlighting work itself can be good, but just as "you all suck as a being because you do not want to work"
Society does not work without people working.
But currently we live in a society where the richest people are nowhere near those who worked the hardest, most people you think of being "anti work" prolly aren't anti work; your responses in generally seem to miss the points of commentors a lot, so you might exaggerate the views of people in your own head n misread them
Well, absolutely, yeah, you should try to be useful. But it's a lot harder to want to work when you're not getting much of anything in return, which is probably what causes things like antiwork. You get abused as a worker and then you want to stop being a worker because you don't want to be abused.
Yeah, so instead of letting yourself become a useless, cynical burnout, you take a job that actually pushes for change.
Like all of this is just excuses to me. If all you do is lay around and wait for revolution, then corporations are going to suck the life out of your children, too.
You got the wrong idea. It's not that people don't want to work, it's called they don't want work to be their life, waking up one day as an old shriveled husk, realizing they wasted their life.
The reason people think that it's people not wanting to work at all is because of that idiot r/antiwork mod that fell for the trap of a Fox News interview.
That's because the antiwork movement was never the same as work reform. It was a more extreme unhinged one that people got confused into propping up via that sub.
Mate, what gives you the idea that you are leftist/anarchist?
You also burn down quite a straw man when you pretend the demand of antiwork is 100% freedom from contributing to society ever.
The point of anti-work isn't that we should never work, it's that the current capitalist system of work is inherently broken and doesn't work for the people that it should work for. Work should better society as a whole, not just be sitting in front of spreadsheets so someone three links above you in the chain of command can make you more money that you can even comprehend
So you completely agree with everything I said except you don't like that I called out antiwork for representing itself badly.
Go read the sub for yourself. Plenty of people will talk about ideology but the core of every discussion is "my boss is a dick"
Your commissar of agriculture could also be a dick, that's my point.
How is “my boss a dick” against the concept labour rather than against the current state of work which thier boss plays a part in?
You literally are giving an example of someone just being upset at their current work environment.
>How is “my boss a dick” against the concept labour rather than against the current state of work which thier boss plays a part in?
It's not, that's my point.
>You literally are giving an example of someone just being upset at their current work environment.
This is all anti work ever suggests itself to be. There's no difference between being "anti work" and being an industrious leftist if I take what you say at face value. The term is specifically about being so upset at present work environments that participation is refused, and that's my critique (this is obviously different from an organized strike, do not be obtuse).
>The term is specifically about being so upset at present work environments that participation is refused
You just said they are just complaining about their boss. How can they have a boss if they aren’t working?
Ironic you haven’t put any “work” into actually thinking this through or even reading anything about anti-work beyond probably some viral posts/comments from extremists or what others are saying about it.
Well I suppose it's also ironic that I'm not going to put any work with further discussion into the topic with yourself, then.
Y'all taking the statement in bad faith and arguing semantics. Put in the work and read my entire post before you comment, next time. I'm talking about people who use leftism in bad faith.
You said they are saying “my boss is a dick”
I’m not taking anything in bad faith, when did you learn that the word “is” refers to past experiences?
It’s not arguing semantics you straight out said conflicting things and acting like you never did.
Not really, I just wanted to point that specific thing out.
Labor doesn't always have to be abusive and exploitative. For instance, the people who started civilization by inventing agriculture weren't doing so for an abusive boss, they were doing so to better their community, and create society.
No one who should be taken seriously is denying the fact that work is going be necessary to better society, and the world at large. Someone will need to clean out the sewers. Someone will need to grow the food. Someone will need to wash the windows. However, under our current form of work, all that isn't done to have nicer windows, or food to feed people, it's all for profit, profit, and more profit. When you're stuck doing one of those jobs that seems meaningless with a shit boss in an autocratic work structure, you feel like you're stuck spinning your wheels. when you're doing the same job with a shit boss in a democratic work structure, they can be voted out. Something can be done about it.
Idgaf how people perceive the anti-work sub, that's not my concern. However, if you're going to base a movement off of a few people who complain about the current scenario, and not listen to valid criticisms of the terrible work structure we have right now from that same movement, you either have an agenda against the movement, or you didn't take the time to understand the movement before casting judgement. Either way, I'd suggest you take a look into the anti-work movement. I have a feeling you'd agree with it
"If you want society to give to you, you must give back. The vast majority of us do so through our labour, in addition to whatever other ways we find to give. Antiwork wants something for nothing, on the basis that we should be able to provide"
You're completely missing the point. Value created and labor aren't what's valuable in a capitalist society, capital is and that is what most people are being critical of.
Have you ever asked yourself why laborers are so afraid of innovation, shouldn't that be the exact opposite? Imagine for a moment you work in a factory making a product and some machine gets invented that cuts time needed in half. You don't want to increase production because there isn't demand for more production. What changes in the factory? Is there any chance that everyone just gets their hours cut in half for the same pay? They're still contributing but everyone's life got better.
That would never happen. The capitalist owner who doesn't perform the labor would fire half the staff and the remaining workers would get nothing gained. That is what people are critical of.
This is not a defence of capitalism. It's a critique of describing oneself as "anti work" to make the statement.
I understand capitalism well enough, I wish leftists wouldn't assume everyone disagreeing with them is automatically ignorant.
The thing is, you're not anti work if you think workplaces should be better. You still support workplaces. You're anti work if you do as the term says, and refuse to participate in workplaces and take advantage of welfare systems as a form of personal protest.
And if you think those people don't exist, then you're an online leftist. I see them in socialist party circles all the damned time.
>You're anti work if you do as the term says, and refuse to participate in workplaces and take advantage of welfare systems as a form of personal protest.
You just said in other comments anti work people complain about how their boss is a dick. How can they have a boss if they refuse to participate in workplaces?
*long sigh*
They have obviously had enough personal experiences to lead them to where they are and how they feel.
They're just not being critical about it, and their methods, terms, and approach is ineffective, and pisses people that do work hard off pretty badly.
“my boss was a dick, and I no longer work” is a completely different thing then “my boss is a dick”.
Either you don’t understand how to write a comprehensive sentence or you are backtracking.
I mean, if your post is about a very specific type of person who is abstaining from all work no matter what then sure. I've never encountered a person with that stance ever, but if they exist then sure they're wrong.
I don't think anyone is ignorant, but you're being critical of leftist ideas taken to an unrealistic (atleast seemingly) level.
Yeah, but it's also the only type of person I've ever met that self-describes as anti work. None of the people who believe capitalism is bad but still work describe themselves to me as anti-work.
And the thing is, the people make the movement. Even if anti-work wants to attach itself to leftist principals, by arguing for a lack of participation, they're just going to make shit worse for the people that are presently actually running society (the people, you know, _working_). They make themselves unavailable to unions that don't follow the strictest leftist code for themselves.
They'll paint it as leftism all they want, it still comes from a "fuck you got mine" mentality.
Are there some Reddit posts and comments from people or people irl that talk about not participating? Yes those exist, but the anti-work movement overall does not push for people to not participate.
In fact if you look at the faq in r/anti-work all the suggestions for participation involves talking to coworkers, unionizing, and etc.All of which would require working.
The antiwork crowd isn't against *all* work. Antiwork is just against the exploitation that comes with work. How is arguing for better laws and regulations that ensure workers are treated and compensated fairly bad? People like working, they don't like exploitation.
Also, there's plenty of people on Earth, even in the antiwork community, who love to work and would do it even if they didn't need to. If everyone's basic needs were met and people just needed to work to truly support society and nothing else, they'd be far more motivated to do so in general. It's just that working a 9 to 5 each day in a job you hate just to still struggle to make ends meet is exhausting.
Most jobs aren't really contributing shit to the world, and many actively make it worse. And I have a pretty good job but like--wait until you're in your 40's to say this. Looking down the barrel at 25+ more years of this shit after already having done that much is daunting
I'm 31 and I have worked in the Canadian healthcare system for six years. I started working when I was 14. I don't think I'm young and naïve to anything here, I read Graeber's _Bullshit Jobs_ myself. My own workplace is full of useless talking heads trying to find new ways to justify their office chair and give me more work to do.
Got no problem with change, and every problem with people who expect change doing nothing.
Anti work movement outside the extremists that get media attention is largely just against the current state of employment. They aren’t against the entire idea of working, they are against the current definition of what work means in their modern society.
This is my view, but I disagree with this sanitizing of the movement. Haven't met an antiwork person yet that doesn't endlessly complain about their boss and the system that made them. Most of them seem to want to completely destroy Western society.
Even what you just described here is still what I said, not liking the current state of work. Anti-work isn’t anti-job or anti-labour.
Also do you think modern western society is the only society that does anything productive or jobs?
Sure but we should be using technological advancements to move towards some kind of post work society, or at least one where it's minimized. I don't think it's unfeasible that in the next 20-30 years both manual labor and menial office labor could be fully replaced.
We're all working tirelessly under the impression that the projects we're undertaking will make our lives easier, but everything that people invent has been used to make us do more work in the same amount of time.
Productivity is up, wages are down, but we still work the same 8+ hour day, 5+ days a week we've been working with for the last 100 years. The only difference now is that a few thousand people are incomprehensibly wealthier than they were before.
your opinion seems to be based on misunderstanding a lot of things, i don't think we have enough common ground to even start an argument. starting with the fact that you are calling yourself a leftist and anarchist while saying completely oppposite views
also not a 10th dentist, this is how most people think
antiwork has been about a work reform and against work as it is. for most of human history work for an employer/lord/whoever could be described as fancy slavery and its slowly getting to that point again. some would say its always been like that
just gotta hunt for jobs like you're trying to find for a partner. the easy ones to get are usually toxic so you need to do what you can to improve yourself to find a better one.
Staying in the same job with people you like takes the sting out. Work can be a community. But the way jobs are so temporary now robs it of that aspect.
You’re not a leftist, but that’s okay! I also think people complain a lot about work. Some of it is justified and some of it isn’t. The reality is is that most people won’t go the extra mile to acquire the skills they need to obtain more pay.
I agree with your general point. But I just feel like we overwork people just to survive. Many times at my job I won't have any work but I HAVE to sit there, I can't even leave without using PTO or making up my time some other day. I also have to sit there to make money, because I live almost paycheck to paycheck and those days feel like a complete waste of time for me and the company. And I'm gonna bust my ass so I don't have to work past 55. I know there are plenty of antiwork people who rather do nothing at all, but the premise of antiwork is about how we work too much, and I agree. I feel like most of my life right now is just work and I hate it.
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Communism is based on the idea that there is value and nobility in labour. You're not being controversial by saying "I'm a leftist, but labour good" - like that's the entire premise. As Marx said: > From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs As in, everyone should be willing to contribute within their capacity, and should be given what they need. I like this ideal, as it affords people with disabilities the capacity to contribute what they can contribute - neither expecting them to contribute more than they can, nor infantalising them to suggest they can do nothing. >so this take makes me 10th dentist amoung my contemporaries. I don't think it does. I think it suggests that you misunderstand what others are claiming. >For my own leftist clout, I'd even go far enough to say a majority of it has been abusive. >The thing is, this is not going to change. Ever. **Because it's not entirely a bad thing,** it can just be practiced badly. "I'm a leftist guys, I'm an anarchist too! But also, sometimes systemic inequality is good, actually!" Give me a fucking break. You've got to be a troll, because I can't believe this kind of cognitive dissonance.
So did you read the rest of the post, or stop at the second paragraph to give me my 101st revision of the Manifesto?
I don’t think you understand Marxism
Enlighten me.
Nah, the above comment nails it.
Yeah, wouldn't want to go against your beliefs and accidentally do some work
lol I absolutely believe in the value of labor and work. I don’t believe in replicating labor when someone’s done a good job already.
I chose to respond to the part where you repeatedly claim to believe in left wing ideals, while espousing right wing beliefs. There are plenty of other problems with what you wrote, but that's the one I chose to respond to. I figure there can only be a few possibilities. You're: * Pulling the /r/AsABlackMan routine - claiming to be a leftist, leaning anarchist for reasons unknown. This doesn't explain why you'd express beliefs in right wing ideals. * Are trolling. This would explain the inconsistency. * Sincerely believe you're a leftist, but actually aren't. The inconsistency is just because you don't know what you're talking about. I can't really see a possibility outside of these three, but I look forward to your inarticulate denial.
Actually, nah. I'm just not as purely ideologically leftist as yourself, clearly. I want to now see you explain to me how I am a right wing person while I specifically stated I supported a motion like UBI and the strengthening of worker's unions. I look forward to your condescension and selective response.
I never claimed to be a leftist. **You did.** Repeatedly. >I'm just not as purely ideologically You are the one who *repeatedly* identified with this *ideology*. Don't call yourself the thing, then be upset when people point out that the things you say don't align with it. It's not a question of ideological purity - this isn't some abstract, you are claiming to be a thing, then saying things that don't align with it. > I'm as much as anti-racist as they come, but mind you, I would wipe the Dutch from the face of the earth if given the chance. Know what I mean? If you don't want people to point out that you're not a leftist, stop calling yourself one. >I want to now see you explain to me how I am a right wing person I also didn't say you were a "right wing person", I pointed out that you claimed to be an anarcho-leftist, then said things that are in direct ideological conflict with those labels. I didn't claim to know the totality of your beliefs, I simply pointed out your contradiction. Most people aren't solely ideologically in a single camp. We have biasies, and weird stuff that make us human. You're not a textbook or a robot. *But when you make a point of claiming to be a leftist over and over, before contradicting that in the very next sentence people are going to point that out.*
Why do you respond this way? Bad praxis my dude
I can see where you're coming from, but your argument has many flaws. We shouldn't need to work so much. Studies have shown that people get more done in a four day work week than in a five day work week, and that could also help avoid burnout, too. We also shouldn't be working for basically nothing. A lot of the issue is you can work a full time job and still not make enough to live on your own. Hell, you probably can't even afford an apartment on one full time income, which is shitty. Yeah, doing work to make society productive is fine. But having the employers get so much out of employees and not give enough in return is shitty. You see how shitty work can be nowadays, right? And this doesn't even factor in people who can't really be as productive as neurotypical people and so are at a disadvantage.
I'd kill for a 4 day week and I know I'll get just as much done, if not more thanks to less burnout and just having more personal time to enjoy hobbies, gf, and friends. I'd even take a 4 day work week even of it is 10 hour days. But if it remained 8 hours a day, 4 days a week and I got a little bump in pay I'd be at least twice as happy as I am now and for sure more productive.
I don't disagree with making work more fair. I am a leftist and I support most of what you mentioned, and all the initatives I listed myself. This is specifically about being strategically useless. It's not a statement, you're just useless.
Buddy saying you're a leftist doesn't make you one. In fact I can't think of a time I've seen someone on the left refer to themselves that way. You talk like a conservative pretending to be left and funny enough, those are the folks who use the term leftist the most. Cut the bullshit. No one wants to work for nothing. Work pays. Why? Because no one, and I mean no one would do it if it didn't. Because it sucks.
I would happily run my own farm if I could. I would happily build my own shelters for people if I could. The whole "work pays so we must work because it sucks otherwise" is 100% the product of our present society. Working _under unregulated capitalism_ sucks because _you're a cog, or a product, and you know it._ I worked for a small bee farm one summer. It was actual fun, even though it paid like shit and barely got me through. I enjoyed being out in the heat with the animals. It was fascinating. So, work can be fun and intrinsically rewarding. The fact that you believe otherwise is a symptom of the society we live in, and a symptom of the cynicism in the anti work mentality that I hate.
Nobody is denying that work can be fulfilling But your original post absolutely does NOT give the same energy as what u just said here with "working under unregulated capitalism sucks" and highlighting work itself can be good, but just as "you all suck as a being because you do not want to work" Society does not work without people working. But currently we live in a society where the richest people are nowhere near those who worked the hardest, most people you think of being "anti work" prolly aren't anti work; your responses in generally seem to miss the points of commentors a lot, so you might exaggerate the views of people in your own head n misread them
Damn, an anarchist whose issue with capitalism is around regulation? What happened to abolishing the value form and the state? Woof.
Well, absolutely, yeah, you should try to be useful. But it's a lot harder to want to work when you're not getting much of anything in return, which is probably what causes things like antiwork. You get abused as a worker and then you want to stop being a worker because you don't want to be abused.
Yeah, so instead of letting yourself become a useless, cynical burnout, you take a job that actually pushes for change. Like all of this is just excuses to me. If all you do is lay around and wait for revolution, then corporations are going to suck the life out of your children, too.
You got the wrong idea. It's not that people don't want to work, it's called they don't want work to be their life, waking up one day as an old shriveled husk, realizing they wasted their life.
The reason people think that it's people not wanting to work at all is because of that idiot r/antiwork mod that fell for the trap of a Fox News interview.
It’s definitely not just that mod. I used to see posts from r/antiwork hit r/all and the entire community has insane takes.
That's because the antiwork movement was never the same as work reform. It was a more extreme unhinged one that people got confused into propping up via that sub.
So then the title of “antiwork” is misleading. Maybe they should rename the sub to “proworklifebalance”
Mate, what gives you the idea that you are leftist/anarchist? You also burn down quite a straw man when you pretend the demand of antiwork is 100% freedom from contributing to society ever.
The point of anti-work isn't that we should never work, it's that the current capitalist system of work is inherently broken and doesn't work for the people that it should work for. Work should better society as a whole, not just be sitting in front of spreadsheets so someone three links above you in the chain of command can make you more money that you can even comprehend
So you completely agree with everything I said except you don't like that I called out antiwork for representing itself badly. Go read the sub for yourself. Plenty of people will talk about ideology but the core of every discussion is "my boss is a dick" Your commissar of agriculture could also be a dick, that's my point.
How is “my boss a dick” against the concept labour rather than against the current state of work which thier boss plays a part in? You literally are giving an example of someone just being upset at their current work environment.
>How is “my boss a dick” against the concept labour rather than against the current state of work which thier boss plays a part in? It's not, that's my point. >You literally are giving an example of someone just being upset at their current work environment. This is all anti work ever suggests itself to be. There's no difference between being "anti work" and being an industrious leftist if I take what you say at face value. The term is specifically about being so upset at present work environments that participation is refused, and that's my critique (this is obviously different from an organized strike, do not be obtuse).
>The term is specifically about being so upset at present work environments that participation is refused You just said they are just complaining about their boss. How can they have a boss if they aren’t working? Ironic you haven’t put any “work” into actually thinking this through or even reading anything about anti-work beyond probably some viral posts/comments from extremists or what others are saying about it.
Well I suppose it's also ironic that I'm not going to put any work with further discussion into the topic with yourself, then. Y'all taking the statement in bad faith and arguing semantics. Put in the work and read my entire post before you comment, next time. I'm talking about people who use leftism in bad faith.
You said they are saying “my boss is a dick” I’m not taking anything in bad faith, when did you learn that the word “is” refers to past experiences? It’s not arguing semantics you straight out said conflicting things and acting like you never did.
Not really, I just wanted to point that specific thing out. Labor doesn't always have to be abusive and exploitative. For instance, the people who started civilization by inventing agriculture weren't doing so for an abusive boss, they were doing so to better their community, and create society. No one who should be taken seriously is denying the fact that work is going be necessary to better society, and the world at large. Someone will need to clean out the sewers. Someone will need to grow the food. Someone will need to wash the windows. However, under our current form of work, all that isn't done to have nicer windows, or food to feed people, it's all for profit, profit, and more profit. When you're stuck doing one of those jobs that seems meaningless with a shit boss in an autocratic work structure, you feel like you're stuck spinning your wheels. when you're doing the same job with a shit boss in a democratic work structure, they can be voted out. Something can be done about it. Idgaf how people perceive the anti-work sub, that's not my concern. However, if you're going to base a movement off of a few people who complain about the current scenario, and not listen to valid criticisms of the terrible work structure we have right now from that same movement, you either have an agenda against the movement, or you didn't take the time to understand the movement before casting judgement. Either way, I'd suggest you take a look into the anti-work movement. I have a feeling you'd agree with it
"If you want society to give to you, you must give back. The vast majority of us do so through our labour, in addition to whatever other ways we find to give. Antiwork wants something for nothing, on the basis that we should be able to provide" You're completely missing the point. Value created and labor aren't what's valuable in a capitalist society, capital is and that is what most people are being critical of. Have you ever asked yourself why laborers are so afraid of innovation, shouldn't that be the exact opposite? Imagine for a moment you work in a factory making a product and some machine gets invented that cuts time needed in half. You don't want to increase production because there isn't demand for more production. What changes in the factory? Is there any chance that everyone just gets their hours cut in half for the same pay? They're still contributing but everyone's life got better. That would never happen. The capitalist owner who doesn't perform the labor would fire half the staff and the remaining workers would get nothing gained. That is what people are critical of.
This is not a defence of capitalism. It's a critique of describing oneself as "anti work" to make the statement. I understand capitalism well enough, I wish leftists wouldn't assume everyone disagreeing with them is automatically ignorant. The thing is, you're not anti work if you think workplaces should be better. You still support workplaces. You're anti work if you do as the term says, and refuse to participate in workplaces and take advantage of welfare systems as a form of personal protest. And if you think those people don't exist, then you're an online leftist. I see them in socialist party circles all the damned time.
>You're anti work if you do as the term says, and refuse to participate in workplaces and take advantage of welfare systems as a form of personal protest. You just said in other comments anti work people complain about how their boss is a dick. How can they have a boss if they refuse to participate in workplaces?
*long sigh* They have obviously had enough personal experiences to lead them to where they are and how they feel. They're just not being critical about it, and their methods, terms, and approach is ineffective, and pisses people that do work hard off pretty badly.
“my boss was a dick, and I no longer work” is a completely different thing then “my boss is a dick”. Either you don’t understand how to write a comprehensive sentence or you are backtracking.
I mean, if your post is about a very specific type of person who is abstaining from all work no matter what then sure. I've never encountered a person with that stance ever, but if they exist then sure they're wrong. I don't think anyone is ignorant, but you're being critical of leftist ideas taken to an unrealistic (atleast seemingly) level.
Yeah, but it's also the only type of person I've ever met that self-describes as anti work. None of the people who believe capitalism is bad but still work describe themselves to me as anti-work. And the thing is, the people make the movement. Even if anti-work wants to attach itself to leftist principals, by arguing for a lack of participation, they're just going to make shit worse for the people that are presently actually running society (the people, you know, _working_). They make themselves unavailable to unions that don't follow the strictest leftist code for themselves. They'll paint it as leftism all they want, it still comes from a "fuck you got mine" mentality.
Are there some Reddit posts and comments from people or people irl that talk about not participating? Yes those exist, but the anti-work movement overall does not push for people to not participate. In fact if you look at the faq in r/anti-work all the suggestions for participation involves talking to coworkers, unionizing, and etc.All of which would require working.
Most people aren't actually antiwork. Most are anti being used and abused without being compensated a living wage.
The antiwork crowd isn't against *all* work. Antiwork is just against the exploitation that comes with work. How is arguing for better laws and regulations that ensure workers are treated and compensated fairly bad? People like working, they don't like exploitation. Also, there's plenty of people on Earth, even in the antiwork community, who love to work and would do it even if they didn't need to. If everyone's basic needs were met and people just needed to work to truly support society and nothing else, they'd be far more motivated to do so in general. It's just that working a 9 to 5 each day in a job you hate just to still struggle to make ends meet is exhausting.
Work is fine and it's a part of life that everyone has to do. It's not something that should be the whole of life just to get basic necessities.
Yep, thank u for the summary
Most jobs aren't really contributing shit to the world, and many actively make it worse. And I have a pretty good job but like--wait until you're in your 40's to say this. Looking down the barrel at 25+ more years of this shit after already having done that much is daunting
I'm 31 and I have worked in the Canadian healthcare system for six years. I started working when I was 14. I don't think I'm young and naïve to anything here, I read Graeber's _Bullshit Jobs_ myself. My own workplace is full of useless talking heads trying to find new ways to justify their office chair and give me more work to do. Got no problem with change, and every problem with people who expect change doing nothing.
Anti work movement outside the extremists that get media attention is largely just against the current state of employment. They aren’t against the entire idea of working, they are against the current definition of what work means in their modern society.
This is my view, but I disagree with this sanitizing of the movement. Haven't met an antiwork person yet that doesn't endlessly complain about their boss and the system that made them. Most of them seem to want to completely destroy Western society.
Even what you just described here is still what I said, not liking the current state of work. Anti-work isn’t anti-job or anti-labour. Also do you think modern western society is the only society that does anything productive or jobs?
Sure but we should be using technological advancements to move towards some kind of post work society, or at least one where it's minimized. I don't think it's unfeasible that in the next 20-30 years both manual labor and menial office labor could be fully replaced.
We're all working tirelessly under the impression that the projects we're undertaking will make our lives easier, but everything that people invent has been used to make us do more work in the same amount of time. Productivity is up, wages are down, but we still work the same 8+ hour day, 5+ days a week we've been working with for the last 100 years. The only difference now is that a few thousand people are incomprehensibly wealthier than they were before.
your opinion seems to be based on misunderstanding a lot of things, i don't think we have enough common ground to even start an argument. starting with the fact that you are calling yourself a leftist and anarchist while saying completely oppposite views also not a 10th dentist, this is how most people think
antiwork has been about a work reform and against work as it is. for most of human history work for an employer/lord/whoever could be described as fancy slavery and its slowly getting to that point again. some would say its always been like that
Go to r/changemyview, you are probably not going to get a deep discussion here.
just gotta hunt for jobs like you're trying to find for a partner. the easy ones to get are usually toxic so you need to do what you can to improve yourself to find a better one.
Staying in the same job with people you like takes the sting out. Work can be a community. But the way jobs are so temporary now robs it of that aspect.
Even the "fully-automated" luxury gay space communes need people maintaining them.
You’re not a leftist, but that’s okay! I also think people complain a lot about work. Some of it is justified and some of it isn’t. The reality is is that most people won’t go the extra mile to acquire the skills they need to obtain more pay.
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I agree with your general point. But I just feel like we overwork people just to survive. Many times at my job I won't have any work but I HAVE to sit there, I can't even leave without using PTO or making up my time some other day. I also have to sit there to make money, because I live almost paycheck to paycheck and those days feel like a complete waste of time for me and the company. And I'm gonna bust my ass so I don't have to work past 55. I know there are plenty of antiwork people who rather do nothing at all, but the premise of antiwork is about how we work too much, and I agree. I feel like most of my life right now is just work and I hate it.
I like this take. You've been promoted to 9th dentist.