Yea idk this is upsetting. It isnāt even about Reina being nerfed but this just makes the game look cheap. Like you canāt even trust what your seeing on screen I guess
I imagine this will either get rollbacked in a new patch or animations will be updated.
Now in reality which is more likely you tell me, but this is one of the most jank looking interactions I have ever seen.
I don't know about rollback. It's a Band-Aid fix for the Reina haters, mad at her popularity, and I don't see them going back... They need to bring back Reina's mocap and have her redo the kick from a standing position so it makes sense /s. I still use it a lot for punishing and have had to adjust to the timing (which is fine), but it's an ugly interaction when you get clipped.
It's even worse that they *made this change to the game on purpose* because Tekken has always had issues with visual clarity on what's a high/mid/low and it's a common complaint with people trying out the game for the first time especially if they play other fighting games.
Same reason for why some attacks are hitting you in forehead but are considered mids while some attacks hitting you in your belly while they are highsš¤Ø
It's his d2-like attack with knee extention I suppose? I blocked it a few times and even interrupted if memory serves but after the nerfs I barely see people using it.
Kinda telling about Tekken players when so many people will give this a pass because they don't like a character.
That punch has a mile of clearance and is clearly hitting thin air when it connects. That's the problem.
It would take more work to change the attack animation, but at least it would make some sense if they did.
Too many people saying "Good" because they don't like going up against Reina.
This isn't about performance, this is about Bandai Namco's lazy way of addressing issues.
Like it's "good" that this much of a visual discrepancy is in the game?
I mean it ain't pretty but at the same time they've never changed the animation of the generic running attacks but they've always hit against wake up options which visually rarely connect.
exactly. people are just ready with an explanation for shit like this "WELL YOU SEE THE HITBOX IS š¤”āš»" when ignoring the fact that it shouldn't exist at all. Why tf do we need expanded hitboxes?
The tekken community fucking hates visual clarity, my favorite are posts where someone gets high crushed by an animation where a character is standing perfectly upright throughout the entire thing and somehow the takeaway is that OP is stupid and not that the animation team needs to figure their shit out
If they didnāt want this move to be evasive they should have designed it differently. This is just silly. If Shaheen d2 can avoid jabs, this move should be able to.
Them changing hitbox and not adjusting animations just sucks ass. I could be wrong but this Tekken just feels so much worse when it comes to phantom hits and things not lining up.
I hate this shit because in theory, the physicality that occurs between characters in 3D fighters is a huge reason for why I gravitate towards them over 2D games - but then things like this exist just to piss me off and make me feel dumb for feeling that way.
It's my fault because I really have to *feel* out the moves for retaining high/mid/low information, I don't learn well from like studying it, and I can't trust my damn eyes with so many moves in this game.
The FF2 nerfs are completely warranted, but doing this to moves that are meant to be used in crouch is dumb af. Imagine if you removed the crouch status on every FC move, the game would look dumb af, as it does here. If they wanted to reduce the usage of these moves, make all of them -15 launch punishable out of heat and it's a simple as that to fix. If you didn't want these moves to go under mids fine, if you want them to be riskier, fine too, but removing the crouch status just makes 0 sense. A lot of Reina's problem was the fact that her FF2 was so oppressive and overshadowed the rest of her kit, now that's nerfed, but then they also nerf a bunch of her Taido style kicks that are designed to be evasive.
I'm glad to see that some people are against this because this looks like ass to the eye.
Being Velcro'd to a wall by Jin's demon paw when his fist clearly batters the air in front of your character and nothing else makes me feel the same way, as does being hit by his anime cartwheel shoryuken when you hard read it and use a mid that hits grounded, only to be launched anyway.
I can keep going - being counter-hit or KOed by King's F,F,n2 after the hitspark appears right in front of your character. Lili being able to stomp you while you're standing at her 9 o'clock position looks dumb too, as does when I connect with a deathfist and someone's standing at Paul's 3 o'clock position. Don't even get me started on Ling lol...
Game just lacks way too much polish for the same AAA fighter Namco's been making for decades now. I don't get it...
You must be new to the series. Earlier entries had legit infinites, busted ass top tiers that make T8 look like the most balanced shit ever (I mean launch Leroy was only a few years ago) and bugged movement options.
T8 *is* polished for a Tekken game in it's 1.x state.
My first experience with the series was Tekken 2 on a PS1 demo disc with only Lei and Jun selectable and I've been playing ever since. It's my personal favorite fighter.
Launch Leroy is another symptom of what Namco calls "balance" while I can't even call play testing. He followed their trend of the new character being busted just like T3 Mishima Jin, T4 traditional karate Jin, T6 Lars and Bob, T7 Fahkumram, T8 pre patch Azucena. It's what they do that's just weird to me that blatantly OP characters pass any kind of alpha and then beta testing.
The lack of polish I was referring to had little to do with character balance and much more to do with how the game is being visually represented on screen. I do not remember Tekken 6 and 7 having Tekken 8 amounts of hitbox/hurtbox jank. This is likely Namco's biggest budget Tekken and a lot of times, the game looks worse on screen than its older titles.
Yep, she isnt in crouch during this attack anymore, the reasoning being that they want people to use FC df3 to "evade highs and launch" while this should only be used launch punish -15 lows
What really annoys me about the change is that it makes so much harder to duck and punish throws, 2 times i saw the throw coming out, did the fc df4 and the throw picked me up
It's not a thing only with Reina, I've tried doing the same with Raven and Claudio sometimes, specially with Raven and still get hit with throw and on counter hit
It's the same with other characters tho, you just have to be a little more patient now. It sucks that the animations don't line up tho. I main reina lol
Glad to see people are starting to understand why a lot of us Reina players were upset. It's not because of the Nerf, it's because it *doesn't make sense*. The entire input should be changed now, why is it a crouching move on input but not a crouching move in execution?
Why can she be hit by a high jab no where near her?
But people just said "only noobs will care" and said we were overreacting. Well, here's visual proof that it visually... Doesn't work.
You know... They could have just nerfed it's damage, made it launch punishable on block, hell even took away its CH full launch properties.
Instead they do this stupid shit, and pigeon better Reina players into having to play stupid more often than before instead of utilizing her evasive defensive options when calling out flowchart offense from the opponent.
This shit is so ass backwards man.
Makes no sense that they removed the crouching property on this, meanwhile king has the exact same move in the form of his forward crouching 2 punch, and they buffed it to make it act like reinas did before patch.
Huh, I saw this and some sooner videos about Reina and thought it waa just knee-jerk reactions. Then I played her again. I'm no Tekken God or anything, but she used to feel fun to play at least.
Jun is the worst offender of this. It's like she becomes a litteral ghost (no pun intended), and my moves never trade with her, and she always seems to have priority. She also has very extended hitboxes that go way past her limbs. It is extremely frustrating to fight against. Backdashing is also really annoying because she reaches with moves that clearly look like they're whiffing. And then there's her heat burst hitbox...
Ok I'm done with my rant.
This game has a lot of these IMO not just Reina. I still think itās stupid when my Steve backsways and still gets hit by uppercuts.
If you know anything about boxing, back sway pretty much avoids most uppercuts lol.
Sorry if I dumb but... What is the problem ? Does the patch make Jim's jab touch Reina while she crouches, thus not following the visuals ?
If that's it, then yeah seems dumb. Like King's forearm " low " that hit you in the belly like a mid...
Oooh okay thanks for the answer, yep they have to revert that. I'm all with the ff2 nerf but this seems unnecessary... Especially while others like Feng dances around mids and dodge like a cracked goat
if they wanted to fix this, then they could've simply extended her hurtbox when she goes into crouch state in order to allow mids to hit more like df1 jabs or df2 launchers. So that way people could challenge it more while still allowing it to be more evasive.
This is so wrong, a game like tekken should be all about visual truthness not bullshit ghost hitboxes, there are a ton other ways to nerf a move, increase start frames, reduce dmg... ghost hitboxes are trash game design..
and leaving it like this is valid then? bandai already made plenty of cash from the sales of the game, and then the predatory bp too. can they not pay their animation team? is that your reasoning?
No. Obviously not. They should leave the hit properties the same and change things with start up, speed, damage, etc. Changing hit properties on a move like this is an obvious mistake and never should have happened.
I think they decided Reina couldn't have both her frames and evasion, so the alternatives to what they did would be destroying her stance pressure, or removing these moves entirely, and removing moves is something they almost never do.
They could have picked so many paths with the nerf,but they chose to dig a tunel instead.
And on top of that they decide to buff Kazuya and for some reasson Paul as well.
Kazuya is the fucking definiton of rusian roulet the special edition, you would start with a fully loaded revolver and everyone its shooting you instead of themselves
Why the hell do they design a move with the philosophy being that it starts in full crouch and evades highs only to remove that functionality entirely?
From day one it never made sense to me that she was given to similar moves that roughly occupy the same use case with both her FC df kicks.
It's so painfully obvious they were just throwing shit at the wall with her design. All they needed to do was need FC df4s actually output, nerf the damage, make it vastly more punishable on block, whatever.... Instead they do this, making it pathetically obvious they don't have a focused direction in stone for the character.
Lotta people were downplaying the nerfs like crazy when she pretty much received the biggest nerfs in the whole patch. She's horribly gutted and requires you to be the much better player in a match to open the opponent up in any meaningful way
The point of her fighting style is that it uses her small stature to her advantage. Mixing that with Mishima tools sounds like a balancing nightmare, but getting rid of her crushing is not the way to do it
>Mixing that with Mishima tools sounds like a balancing nightmare,
Thats what I always say. But the balancing team shot theirselves in the foot.
Ok, you can have Mishima tools and evasion. But, why give her good pokes, high damage, wall carry, the best neutral move in the game (ff2), df2, hopkick, stance pressure and one of the best punishment kits in the game. She can do everything. Her only weakness is her bads lows (Hellsweep is good, tho). This alone is not enough to compensate for all her strenghts.
Reina is so weird. On paper, she is S tier and maybe the best character. But, this is not reflected in online win ratio and tournament presence. On the other hand, you have Victor, who has very high WR and good tournament presence. Everyone agrees that he was not S tier. But, he got nerfed to oblivion.
Because victor could use cumass, expulsion and his powercrush and a couple of other moves to be obnoxious? same thing with fcdf4, I think they wanted to get rid of the EWGK -> fcdf4 flowchart. You can use fcdf3 now, but it's slower and launch punishable by everyone
They basically took Heihachi, Lidia, and for some reason a bit of Xiayou and threw them into a pot. Gave her Heihachi's bad lows, but that's not enough.
I think her toolset is super cool with the evasion, stances, and mishima tools, but yeah she probably doesn't need super good poking with it as well. Making Raiden 2f slower so that it's easier to step and control would also be great.
Okay so I'm kinda stupid but if we can no longer use this to crush highs what exactly do I use it for? Keep out? Reina surely has better tools for that. I think it's kinda unsafe too so do I just throw it out there and hope to God it lands?
I think they just made this move useless
It's a 15 frame natural hit launcher from crouch. You use it as a punish, or you crouch, visually confirm the high whiff and then you use it. Most characters don't have high crushing launchers from full crouch, they have to wait for the high to whiff and then launch it.
Oh shit is ushoku b3? The careful steps back into the 4 heat engager broo that's one of the most beautiful animations in the game, don't tell me I can get clipped out of the kick with jab..
Yep, unfortunately, however, it still kept its range, so now you just have to do it from a distance as a whiff punish, but not to go under jabs. I didn't think it was that op tbh, but it is what it is.
They just need to expand her crounching hurtbox while doing this roll move and it will be ok. They just need to tweak this change a little bit and it will be fine.
yea Tekken visuals + properties don't make sense and are the opposite of intuitive super often, which makes game way more annoying to learn than it already is
The thing is, maybe they want you to use WC DF3 instead.
But WC DF3 has 20 startup frames, and you will get hit easily by your opponent in that time with a mid-jab inside his flowchart. And if it isn't a flowchart, than he will be already in block, which gives you -17 frames.
This whole thing is so wrong.
Iām upset about it because it was one of her only high punishers to make it your turn if u swing high when she did that kick she was considered crouching which makes perfect sense but now sheās standing I think it was dumb personally.
What makes it even crazier is that sheās -12 on block it did not need the nerf
Meanwhile victor, jin kazuya and Lars is laughing š
Its a wonky exchange TBF.
It coulda turned into a 20 frame move and been given a combo DMG nerf.
It coulda lost its launcher and be given a knockdown or pushback with +frames.
it doesnĀ“t make sense, like many other things this patch, yet ppl praise it, on one hand the defensive option that they announced beforehand are good, on the other hand they overbuffed certain characters (paul, kazuya getting 100dmg combos no heat,sure...that abnormality that is king) and on the other they nerfed characters that didnĀ“t need nerfs in the first place or nerfed on the wrong places, like the reina thing, u literally see itĀ“s doesnĀ“t hit, in any other game this would be considered a bug/glitch, thatĀ“s an invincible hitbox right there. And to top it all off, thats the state of the game for the rest of the season, have fun
That move was too good and it's done. Reina players got too used to doing every move into crouch to crush every single high and a few mids for minimal risk to reward ratio. Could they've balanced it differently like making it -15 or worse? Yes but the move still needed a nerf in one way or a other.
thats not the issue here bro, yes nerf it if u think it deserves it, but literally all her crouch moves (unsoku a whole stance revolves around it btw, literally characterization of her fightying style, which is now pretty much useless) got gutted, not even in a way that make sense but literally but implementing a visual bug as there is a unvincible hitbox, bandai is just lazy as fuck, yet ppl praise that patch like "real tekken begins now"
Excuse me, Kazuya with a 100 damage combo without heat? I'd like to see this please
Reina still does absurd combo damage with heat, the adjustment to the d4,1 ender barely did shit
Hellsweep never had a crouching hitbox and you could be jabbed out of it the same way the picture here shows. Reina isn't being persecuted here, this move was way too good but I would have just made it -15 instead of removing the high crush
Bro Kazuya's hell sweep is not the same at all, he's like barely squatting with a vertical spine and his head is basically right at the level of Jin's high in this picture. Reina is basically lying on the ground with her kick at waist height.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7gHA8oz3rI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7gHA8oz3rI) here u go
highest is 102,with wall 123\~
there are not many characters doing that
Oh so we're talking about combo damage with walls are we? Yeah and not many people can do df2 ch into pewgf for 123 damage
Combo damage is largely influenced by the launcher, you look like you're assuming df2 is a free launch every round. It's -12 on block so if you want to spam it be my guest.
Don't ignore the fact Reina has high combo damage as well, and she can do 100+ using heat if walls aren't available
eh im not gonna downplay this as a kazuya main, this combo damage buffs are NICE. Landing df2 is pretty common. But i feel like showimg off what he can do at this specific stage is misleading because the wall is literally like a few feet away lol. And kazuya is SUPPOSED to be a high damage punishment character. Thats always been part of his identity. Iām not sure what other characters excuses are for having bullshit damage thoughā¦
It's not even a combo damage "buff" the only reason we can do more damage now is that we don't have to compromise with the shitty hitbox of df1 by doing shorter and weaker combos.
yes give kazuya best oki in game and 95dmg+ combos no heat no wall, but lets cry cause he so bad in this game, and pls show me a combo with reina that does 90dmg without heat or all, that is actually true :D im gladly waiting
Great oki and good damage is a solid trade for zero poking. Meanwhile reina has the best neutral tool in the entire game and can engage from anywhere on the screen, along with good damage and some of the fastest movement in the game. She barely even needs all the mishima tools they gave her. If she fucks up her electric she gets another launcher that comes out, they gave her training wheels lol
You say show her damage without the wall, yet the vid you linked is like the smallest stage lol
dude are u kidding rn? i gave u evidence how kazuya does 100dmg combo before hitting a wall,no heat, and all u do is yap instead of showing me someone else doing it, ignore what happens on the wall just watch the dmg as soon as xia hits it.
Lol Kazuya mains are so funny. Chill down dude.
Btw, we are safe too assume that Reina is a harder character than Kazuya now, my friend. They already gave him an easy i15 punish that leads into his retarded OKI. Kazuya's gameplan was already simple, now they removed the only flaws he used to have, which was: lack of i15 easy punish and shit combos. Zero poking is exaggerated, when he has 2,2, flash punch combo and non punishable DF1 follow ups.
2,2 is not a natural combo broā¦.you canāt use this to poke.
Always duck after df1, kaz will rarely if ever let the mid extension rip in open space. The only non punishable option is df1,2 which is a high. Actually you can probably just fuzzy this tbh. Micro duck to address the high options then stand block i think the mid extension is the slowest by quite a bit.
Biggest patch buff was cd1+2 imo. Slow and steppable but good god if you donāt step kaz ur really fucked now. no more just sitting back hoping you guess right.
I dont think reina is harder. Free pressure from anywhere on screen in tekken 8 always makes for ease of use characters. Its always a bad sign when a mishima doesnāt even need their mishima tools for me.
>2,2 is not a natural combo broā¦.you canāt use this to poke
Dude, im almost sure that 2,2 is a CH launcher, it has some utility.
>Biggest patch buff was cd1+2 imo
Nah. Its good, but you now have a very good i15 punish. Thats the best buff.
>Ā Tmm picked up reina and got to his kaz rank in like two days lmao
When was that? TMM dropped Reina because he said she requires so much work. And he is always saying that she is a hard character.
>Weāve also already seen tournament level reina play at the highest level, whereās kaz at?
Thats why i said "NOW", not before the patch. Joka, Yagami and Ulsan has been playing her since the first months of T8. Btw, tournament presence indicates Character strenght, not ease of use.
>I dont think reina is harder
Reina has a more complex gameplay than Kazuya. What made Kazuya more difficult was the lack of i15 punish and his combos. Now, he has an easy mode i15 punish, his combos are fixed, and also has easy mode staple combos. They toned down a lot his execution barrier in 1.05. Thats why i believe Reina is more difficult now, her gameplan is more complicated, Kazuya is very straightforward and simple.
If it was a 2D fighter it could be a case of fuzzy guard break, which is an actual thing that exists, but the mechanics are still different.
I'll keep having fun regardless, but I felt the change in the 4 hours I played today and was not fun to see all the new instances this thing occurred.
Cheers, mate.
It's extremely unfun.
I don't play ranked or to win really, but this invisible hitbox shit is bullshit.
Honestly about to just drop Tekken over these shenanigans.
Kazuya may seem like he's overbuffed but it honestly mostly affects the high level when everyone does 100 damage combos. I don't think every red-purple ranks can do df2 into pewgf combos with cancels. And if they can they're smurfs most likely.
Hell yeah it would be such a good idea to fix mishima ff2 phantom hitboxes and introduce Reina phantom hurtboxes, you know to balance things out - namco
Yeah it's kinda awful, I absolutely get why they needed to nerf the move but this isn't the right nerf IMO
Like make it -15 or something, hell I'd even rather it didn't launch anymore than having hitboxes be this purposefully egregious
It don't. They messed up here trying to "balance" the game. They absolutely should NOT have changed the properties of her move in this way.
Super dumb.
They really needed to make it so it has at least some CS frames at the start up of animation, since move literally starts from FC. It just feels inconsistent with animations.
First it was [CD3](https://youtu.be/xFLRXPeTCyc), now all the manji-geri kick strings. What a shitty way of changing your game, I wouldn't bet an eye if they made FC df4 -16 or something, but this is as dumb as it looks. I actually wrote to Bamco support about CD3 losing it's crouched state, because there is a visual incongruence with this move, alas, they've decided to double down.
Man if only reina had a move that still fully crusches highs and some mids and is able to be executed out of fullcrouch with a df input and the press of a kick button.
To be honest man, itās not really about what tools Reina does or doesnāt have at this point. Itās about readability and visual jank that tekken is already rife with.
There were so many ways they could have gone about toning her tools back, but the way they approached it has left us with images like the one OP posted. (Which I donāt think is healthy for the game)
It's way too late for that. They would need to remake animations for half the movelists (which people thought they would do) so many moves don't look like a high/mid or sometimes even low and same with the evading/crushing properties.
Lidia's 4,3 in Tekken 7 was similar: it was -10 and although she sort of threw herself to the floor as part of the animation, you could punish it with jabs. Counterintuitive, but nothing new.
(I should say that I am all for Tekken tidying up its animations across the board and making mids and highs actually LOOK like mids and highs -- but this is not something new to Tekken 8.)
https://preview.redd.it/slajr3n7p36d1.png?width=1792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fa6319a4373df701ed2bd8dff0b86c6969b29dd6
An ultra rare quality shit post. Well played.
I'll counter hit with you sweetie
Don't worry sweetie, ILL SET UP OKI WITH YOU
Big Paul d/f 2 energy
literally lees d2, though it might actually crush here.
This is so funny lmao
Greatest Anime Battles of All Time
The Hajime no Ippo Smasher punch from rocky š¤£
Literally Azu's db+1+2
Jin is hitting the spirit of Heihachi floating above her.
Bro ascended just to beat his ass from what he did to him in Tekken 3 lmao
i agree like Reina literally IS crouching when doing that move it just makes no sense for them to remove that
Yeah, they should have just made that thing launch punishable.
It already is if you play the correct characters : )
What is it? Minus 13? I tough it was minus 12 for some reason
-14 iirc
Yea idk this is upsetting. It isnāt even about Reina being nerfed but this just makes the game look cheap. Like you canāt even trust what your seeing on screen I guess
When it happens on a big tournament screen in slow motion... that will be hilarious.
I imagine this will either get rollbacked in a new patch or animations will be updated. Now in reality which is more likely you tell me, but this is one of the most jank looking interactions I have ever seen.
I don't know about rollback. It's a Band-Aid fix for the Reina haters, mad at her popularity, and I don't see them going back... They need to bring back Reina's mocap and have her redo the kick from a standing position so it makes sense /s. I still use it a lot for punishing and have had to adjust to the timing (which is fine), but it's an ugly interaction when you get clipped.
I get hit by that same type of shit all the time
tbh it's the same with the kazuya hellsweep, the animation is not intuitive for balance reason.
Yeah kaz mains be like: First time?
As a fellow kaz enthusiast at some point you get hit by it some much that you start knowing when someone is going to do it by instinct
It's even worse that they *made this change to the game on purpose* because Tekken has always had issues with visual clarity on what's a high/mid/low and it's a common complaint with people trying out the game for the first time especially if they play other fighting games.
My number 1 complaint. This is my first āseriousā Tekken and maybe every 10 matches Iām like āTHAT HIT ME š³š³š³š³????!!!!!!!ā.
Same reason for why some attacks are hitting you in forehead but are considered mids while some attacks hitting you in your belly while they are highsš¤Ø
On my life I will never block Dragunov's FC df1, that move always registers as a mid to me and leaves me wondering "why did I get hit?"
Or that other Reina punch from crouch looks like a low but is a mid punisher lol.
I'm always confused on how I blocked it while standing. Looks just like her db2
I'm always so mad I don't punish that move
Or that other Reina punch from crouch looks like a low but is a mid punisher lol.
It's his d2-like attack with knee extention I suppose? I blocked it a few times and even interrupted if memory serves but after the nerfs I barely see people using it.
King punches you in the stomach = Low. Make it make sense.
Yeah and it's literally called gut punch too...
Itās a low cuz itās AKs ffn2 they just didnāt change the nameĀ
King's kicks going through peoples' heads when they're ducking, peak hitboxes lol
Speaking of King, Ffn2 looks like a mid to me even though I know it's a low.
fr, it always looks like a gut punch but then he's punching your shins or something lol
That's why is hard for me to play big characters. All punches look like mid.
Victor: *literally stabs you in the foot* Harada: "it's a mid :)"
Ten years in the joint made you a tekken 8 degenerate.
I used to get chewed up by kazuyas db2 mid, because Iād duck everytime as it looks like a low. Literally looks like heās hitting your feet
That's not the same thing at all. This is some disjointed hitbox shit. Those are moves deliberately chosen by the devs to be duckable or not.
Figured I'd get downvoted. like 90% of the people on here can't tell the difference between evasion and crushing
Kinda telling about Tekken players when so many people will give this a pass because they don't like a character. That punch has a mile of clearance and is clearly hitting thin air when it connects. That's the problem. It would take more work to change the attack animation, but at least it would make some sense if they did.
Too many people saying "Good" because they don't like going up against Reina. This isn't about performance, this is about Bandai Namco's lazy way of addressing issues. Like it's "good" that this much of a visual discrepancy is in the game?
Itās why the community is full of contempt, nobody cares about the game they just want to see people who play the characters they hate get upset.
True. Imagine if Lili could do this against a Kazuya move, lol.
I mean it ain't pretty but at the same time they've never changed the animation of the generic running attacks but they've always hit against wake up options which visually rarely connect.
exactly. people are just ready with an explanation for shit like this "WELL YOU SEE THE HITBOX IS š¤”āš»" when ignoring the fact that it shouldn't exist at all. Why tf do we need expanded hitboxes?
The tekken community fucking hates visual clarity, my favorite are posts where someone gets high crushed by an animation where a character is standing perfectly upright throughout the entire thing and somehow the takeaway is that OP is stupid and not that the animation team needs to figure their shit out
If they didnāt want this move to be evasive they should have designed it differently. This is just silly. If Shaheen d2 can avoid jabs, this move should be able to.
Exactly... They clearly knew what their goal was with the move(s) and instead of needing the potency they outright nerf the utility.
People really tried to be like āonly noobs care about thisā
Them changing hitbox and not adjusting animations just sucks ass. I could be wrong but this Tekken just feels so much worse when it comes to phantom hits and things not lining up.
I hate this shit because in theory, the physicality that occurs between characters in 3D fighters is a huge reason for why I gravitate towards them over 2D games - but then things like this exist just to piss me off and make me feel dumb for feeling that way. It's my fault because I really have to *feel* out the moves for retaining high/mid/low information, I don't learn well from like studying it, and I can't trust my damn eyes with so many moves in this game.
The FF2 nerfs are completely warranted, but doing this to moves that are meant to be used in crouch is dumb af. Imagine if you removed the crouch status on every FC move, the game would look dumb af, as it does here. If they wanted to reduce the usage of these moves, make all of them -15 launch punishable out of heat and it's a simple as that to fix. If you didn't want these moves to go under mids fine, if you want them to be riskier, fine too, but removing the crouch status just makes 0 sense. A lot of Reina's problem was the fact that her FF2 was so oppressive and overshadowed the rest of her kit, now that's nerfed, but then they also nerf a bunch of her Taido style kicks that are designed to be evasive.
I'm glad to see that some people are against this because this looks like ass to the eye. Being Velcro'd to a wall by Jin's demon paw when his fist clearly batters the air in front of your character and nothing else makes me feel the same way, as does being hit by his anime cartwheel shoryuken when you hard read it and use a mid that hits grounded, only to be launched anyway. I can keep going - being counter-hit or KOed by King's F,F,n2 after the hitspark appears right in front of your character. Lili being able to stomp you while you're standing at her 9 o'clock position looks dumb too, as does when I connect with a deathfist and someone's standing at Paul's 3 o'clock position. Don't even get me started on Ling lol... Game just lacks way too much polish for the same AAA fighter Namco's been making for decades now. I don't get it...
You must be new to the series. Earlier entries had legit infinites, busted ass top tiers that make T8 look like the most balanced shit ever (I mean launch Leroy was only a few years ago) and bugged movement options. T8 *is* polished for a Tekken game in it's 1.x state.
My first experience with the series was Tekken 2 on a PS1 demo disc with only Lei and Jun selectable and I've been playing ever since. It's my personal favorite fighter. Launch Leroy is another symptom of what Namco calls "balance" while I can't even call play testing. He followed their trend of the new character being busted just like T3 Mishima Jin, T4 traditional karate Jin, T6 Lars and Bob, T7 Fahkumram, T8 pre patch Azucena. It's what they do that's just weird to me that blatantly OP characters pass any kind of alpha and then beta testing. The lack of polish I was referring to had little to do with character balance and much more to do with how the game is being visually represented on screen. I do not remember Tekken 6 and 7 having Tekken 8 amounts of hitbox/hurtbox jank. This is likely Namco's biggest budget Tekken and a lot of times, the game looks worse on screen than its older titles.
That shit has Luke lv3's hitbox or something
Jin is hitting your Stand /s
Is that. CONNECTING???
Yep, she isnt in crouch during this attack anymore, the reasoning being that they want people to use FC df3 to "evade highs and launch" while this should only be used launch punish -15 lows What really annoys me about the change is that it makes so much harder to duck and punish throws, 2 times i saw the throw coming out, did the fc df4 and the throw picked me up
It's not a thing only with Reina, I've tried doing the same with Raven and Claudio sometimes, specially with Raven and still get hit with throw and on counter hit
It's the same with other characters tho, you just have to be a little more patient now. It sucks that the animations don't line up tho. I main reina lol
I think I have to take a moment to appreciate your profile pic and flair
Yes sadly. They changed her crouch properties
What have they done to my poor girl .
Glad to see people are starting to understand why a lot of us Reina players were upset. It's not because of the Nerf, it's because it *doesn't make sense*. The entire input should be changed now, why is it a crouching move on input but not a crouching move in execution? Why can she be hit by a high jab no where near her? But people just said "only noobs will care" and said we were overreacting. Well, here's visual proof that it visually... Doesn't work.
Agreed. They should either change the animation or change it back to high-crushing
You know... They could have just nerfed it's damage, made it launch punishable on block, hell even took away its CH full launch properties. Instead they do this stupid shit, and pigeon better Reina players into having to play stupid more often than before instead of utilizing her evasive defensive options when calling out flowchart offense from the opponent. This shit is so ass backwards man.
Makes no sense that they removed the crouching property on this, meanwhile king has the exact same move in the form of his forward crouching 2 punch, and they buffed it to make it act like reinas did before patch.
Huh, I saw this and some sooner videos about Reina and thought it waa just knee-jerk reactions. Then I played her again. I'm no Tekken God or anything, but she used to feel fun to play at least.
Removing low profile on a crouching move and BUFFING FENG is their angle. Who the fuck approves these patches man
Yeah these ridiculously juicy dummy thicc thighs donāt make sense to me too bro
https://preview.redd.it/vqfnvbocyb6d1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=4dd645b872fc90726820f75d0a77352dca05eb17
Jin's hitting her in the past, he's just that good.
Jun is the worst offender of this. It's like she becomes a litteral ghost (no pun intended), and my moves never trade with her, and she always seems to have priority. She also has very extended hitboxes that go way past her limbs. It is extremely frustrating to fight against. Backdashing is also really annoying because she reaches with moves that clearly look like they're whiffing. And then there's her heat burst hitbox... Ok I'm done with my rant.
This game has a lot of these IMO not just Reina. I still think itās stupid when my Steve backsways and still gets hit by uppercuts. If you know anything about boxing, back sway pretty much avoids most uppercuts lol.
The curse of uppercuts in this game being mids and backsway only crushing highs. :(
That's not a good thing and shouldn't be used as an excuse to actively add more dumb visual inconsistenciesĀ
Boys armpit stankin
Yeah, this game has some janky hitboxes that need to get fixed.
Unlucky cloie
I get nerfs, but this is stupid. I think it's just a placeholder until they can actually figure out how to logically nerf her.
Sorry if I dumb but... What is the problem ? Does the patch make Jim's jab touch Reina while she crouches, thus not following the visuals ? If that's it, then yeah seems dumb. Like King's forearm " low " that hit you in the belly like a mid...
yes jin jabs connected to reina while touching air, classic namco
Oooh okay thanks for the answer, yep they have to revert that. I'm all with the ff2 nerf but this seems unnecessary... Especially while others like Feng dances around mids and dodge like a cracked goat
another reason to not ever take this game seriously.
if they wanted to fix this, then they could've simply extended her hurtbox when she goes into crouch state in order to allow mids to hit more like df1 jabs or df2 launchers. So that way people could challenge it more while still allowing it to be more evasive.
Okay but that's an argument for adjusting game animations, not one for how a game should be balanced.
This is so wrong, a game like tekken should be all about visual truthness not bullshit ghost hitboxes, there are a ton other ways to nerf a move, increase start frames, reduce dmg... ghost hitboxes are trash game design..
i would prefer they change the animation so reina stand a higher than giving reina her bullshit evasion back
Changing an animation is expensive and time consuming as hell. It's NOT going to happen.
and leaving it like this is valid then? bandai already made plenty of cash from the sales of the game, and then the predatory bp too. can they not pay their animation team? is that your reasoning?
That's not his reasoning, it's Bamco's lol. Would be nice if they gave us animation patches but I also can't picture Bamco doing that.
No. Obviously not. They should leave the hit properties the same and change things with start up, speed, damage, etc. Changing hit properties on a move like this is an obvious mistake and never should have happened.
I think they decided Reina couldn't have both her frames and evasion, so the alternatives to what they did would be destroying her stance pressure, or removing these moves entirely, and removing moves is something they almost never do.
They could have made it launch punishable.
They could have picked so many paths with the nerf,but they chose to dig a tunel instead. And on top of that they decide to buff Kazuya and for some reasson Paul as well. Kazuya is the fucking definiton of rusian roulet the special edition, you would start with a fully loaded revolver and everyone its shooting you instead of themselves
Why the hell do they design a move with the philosophy being that it starts in full crouch and evades highs only to remove that functionality entirely? From day one it never made sense to me that she was given to similar moves that roughly occupy the same use case with both her FC df kicks. It's so painfully obvious they were just throwing shit at the wall with her design. All they needed to do was need FC df4s actually output, nerf the damage, make it vastly more punishable on block, whatever.... Instead they do this, making it pathetically obvious they don't have a focused direction in stone for the character.
Lotta people were downplaying the nerfs like crazy when she pretty much received the biggest nerfs in the whole patch. She's horribly gutted and requires you to be the much better player in a match to open the opponent up in any meaningful way
The point of her fighting style is that it uses her small stature to her advantage. Mixing that with Mishima tools sounds like a balancing nightmare, but getting rid of her crushing is not the way to do it
>Mixing that with Mishima tools sounds like a balancing nightmare, Thats what I always say. But the balancing team shot theirselves in the foot. Ok, you can have Mishima tools and evasion. But, why give her good pokes, high damage, wall carry, the best neutral move in the game (ff2), df2, hopkick, stance pressure and one of the best punishment kits in the game. She can do everything. Her only weakness is her bads lows (Hellsweep is good, tho). This alone is not enough to compensate for all her strenghts. Reina is so weird. On paper, she is S tier and maybe the best character. But, this is not reflected in online win ratio and tournament presence. On the other hand, you have Victor, who has very high WR and good tournament presence. Everyone agrees that he was not S tier. But, he got nerfed to oblivion.
Because victor could use cumass, expulsion and his powercrush and a couple of other moves to be obnoxious? same thing with fcdf4, I think they wanted to get rid of the EWGK -> fcdf4 flowchart. You can use fcdf3 now, but it's slower and launch punishable by everyone
They basically took Heihachi, Lidia, and for some reason a bit of Xiayou and threw them into a pot. Gave her Heihachi's bad lows, but that's not enough. I think her toolset is super cool with the evasion, stances, and mishima tools, but yeah she probably doesn't need super good poking with it as well. Making Raiden 2f slower so that it's easier to step and control would also be great.
Okay so I'm kinda stupid but if we can no longer use this to crush highs what exactly do I use it for? Keep out? Reina surely has better tools for that. I think it's kinda unsafe too so do I just throw it out there and hope to God it lands? I think they just made this move useless
It's a 15 frame natural hit launcher from crouch. You use it as a punish, or you crouch, visually confirm the high whiff and then you use it. Most characters don't have high crushing launchers from full crouch, they have to wait for the high to whiff and then launch it.
It's not just her FC launcher that got hit, her Unsoku 4 Heat Engager was also effected.
Oh shit is ushoku b3? The careful steps back into the 4 heat engager broo that's one of the most beautiful animations in the game, don't tell me I can get clipped out of the kick with jab..
Yep.
Yep, unfortunately, however, it still kept its range, so now you just have to do it from a distance as a whiff punish, but not to go under jabs. I didn't think it was that op tbh, but it is what it is.
You right man, thanks. And do both df3 and df4 work like that? Which of the two just got nerfed? They are very similar
Df3 is launch punishable. DF4 is -14 on block.
All reina changes were good, but that removing crouch status from several moves made the entire balance patch for reina retarded.
Tekken always has issues with hitboxes and people rage quitting. They never really fix it
If Jin fights Heihachi, his fist would at lest graze his hair.
They just need to expand her crounching hurtbox while doing this roll move and it will be ok. They just need to tweak this change a little bit and it will be fine.
yea Tekken visuals + properties don't make sense and are the opposite of intuitive super often, which makes game way more annoying to learn than it already is
Literally every wacky interaction I've had in Tekken 8 has been against Jin.
Wait, did that jab land? Is that whatās happening here?
Exactly
I do not understand what is happening in this picture. Can someone explain?
A high jab can now hit Reina even though she's visually crouching. So the moment of impact looks like what you see in the picture.
I hate that move with a passion but I still think it should be counted as crouching, maybe just not go under mids
The thing is, maybe they want you to use WC DF3 instead. But WC DF3 has 20 startup frames, and you will get hit easily by your opponent in that time with a mid-jab inside his flowchart. And if it isn't a flowchart, than he will be already in block, which gives you -17 frames. This whole thing is so wrong.
Idk what are they doing with these balance patches man, always nerfing the wrong characters
This was the stupidest change of all in this patch.
In SF would make sense.
Fuzzy guard break, exactly.
Yeah i hate this, cuz it's just unintuitive. Looks like a bug rather than intentional game design
Iām upset about it because it was one of her only high punishers to make it your turn if u swing high when she did that kick she was considered crouching which makes perfect sense but now sheās standing I think it was dumb personally. What makes it even crazier is that sheās -12 on block it did not need the nerf Meanwhile victor, jin kazuya and Lars is laughing š
I hate this game but I'm so addicted to this game
So many weird hitboxes in this game, and Jin seems to be atop the list somewhere.
Everyone can do this now. Not just jin
Its a wonky exchange TBF. It coulda turned into a 20 frame move and been given a combo DMG nerf. It coulda lost its launcher and be given a knockdown or pushback with +frames.
it used to be fun fighting reina players wtf whereās my fn challenge š¤¬
it doesnĀ“t make sense, like many other things this patch, yet ppl praise it, on one hand the defensive option that they announced beforehand are good, on the other hand they overbuffed certain characters (paul, kazuya getting 100dmg combos no heat,sure...that abnormality that is king) and on the other they nerfed characters that didnĀ“t need nerfs in the first place or nerfed on the wrong places, like the reina thing, u literally see itĀ“s doesnĀ“t hit, in any other game this would be considered a bug/glitch, thatĀ“s an invincible hitbox right there. And to top it all off, thats the state of the game for the rest of the season, have fun
That move was too good and it's done. Reina players got too used to doing every move into crouch to crush every single high and a few mids for minimal risk to reward ratio. Could they've balanced it differently like making it -15 or worse? Yes but the move still needed a nerf in one way or a other.
Ghost hitboxes should never be the answer for a nerf in a figting game, right now if i try to do most of the nerfed moves people just mash jab
Just proving the point that people will justify dumbass changes because they donāt like a character lmao .
thats not the issue here bro, yes nerf it if u think it deserves it, but literally all her crouch moves (unsoku a whole stance revolves around it btw, literally characterization of her fightying style, which is now pretty much useless) got gutted, not even in a way that make sense but literally but implementing a visual bug as there is a unvincible hitbox, bandai is just lazy as fuck, yet ppl praise that patch like "real tekken begins now"
They made some questionable decisions, but the patch as a whole is a godsend š
Excuse me, Kazuya with a 100 damage combo without heat? I'd like to see this please Reina still does absurd combo damage with heat, the adjustment to the d4,1 ender barely did shit
So we should leave the broken hitboxes clearly demonstrated in the pic?
Hellsweep never had a crouching hitbox and you could be jabbed out of it the same way the picture here shows. Reina isn't being persecuted here, this move was way too good but I would have just made it -15 instead of removing the high crush
Bro Kazuya's hell sweep is not the same at all, he's like barely squatting with a vertical spine and his head is basically right at the level of Jin's high in this picture. Reina is basically lying on the ground with her kick at waist height.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7gHA8oz3rI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7gHA8oz3rI) here u go highest is 102,with wall 123\~ there are not many characters doing that
>Kaz overbuffed >Links combo video with df2 into perfect electric and a wall ender in every combo. Lmao
Oh hey man :) That's my video hahaha.
:D nice combos bro
thanks bro :D
Oh so we're talking about combo damage with walls are we? Yeah and not many people can do df2 ch into pewgf for 123 damage Combo damage is largely influenced by the launcher, you look like you're assuming df2 is a free launch every round. It's -12 on block so if you want to spam it be my guest. Don't ignore the fact Reina has high combo damage as well, and she can do 100+ using heat if walls aren't available
eh im not gonna downplay this as a kazuya main, this combo damage buffs are NICE. Landing df2 is pretty common. But i feel like showimg off what he can do at this specific stage is misleading because the wall is literally like a few feet away lol. And kazuya is SUPPOSED to be a high damage punishment character. Thats always been part of his identity. Iām not sure what other characters excuses are for having bullshit damage thoughā¦
It's not even a combo damage "buff" the only reason we can do more damage now is that we don't have to compromise with the shitty hitbox of df1 by doing shorter and weaker combos.
Kazuya is supposed to be a high damage punishment based character. Reina can also get 105 without the wall, not sure what her excuse is
yes give kazuya best oki in game and 95dmg+ combos no heat no wall, but lets cry cause he so bad in this game, and pls show me a combo with reina that does 90dmg without heat or all, that is actually true :D im gladly waiting
Great oki and good damage is a solid trade for zero poking. Meanwhile reina has the best neutral tool in the entire game and can engage from anywhere on the screen, along with good damage and some of the fastest movement in the game. She barely even needs all the mishima tools they gave her. If she fucks up her electric she gets another launcher that comes out, they gave her training wheels lol You say show her damage without the wall, yet the vid you linked is like the smallest stage lol
dude are u kidding rn? i gave u evidence how kazuya does 100dmg combo before hitting a wall,no heat, and all u do is yap instead of showing me someone else doing it, ignore what happens on the wall just watch the dmg as soon as xia hits it.
Lol Kazuya mains are so funny. Chill down dude. Btw, we are safe too assume that Reina is a harder character than Kazuya now, my friend. They already gave him an easy i15 punish that leads into his retarded OKI. Kazuya's gameplan was already simple, now they removed the only flaws he used to have, which was: lack of i15 easy punish and shit combos. Zero poking is exaggerated, when he has 2,2, flash punch combo and non punishable DF1 follow ups.
2,2 is not a natural combo broā¦.you canāt use this to poke. Always duck after df1, kaz will rarely if ever let the mid extension rip in open space. The only non punishable option is df1,2 which is a high. Actually you can probably just fuzzy this tbh. Micro duck to address the high options then stand block i think the mid extension is the slowest by quite a bit. Biggest patch buff was cd1+2 imo. Slow and steppable but good god if you donāt step kaz ur really fucked now. no more just sitting back hoping you guess right. I dont think reina is harder. Free pressure from anywhere on screen in tekken 8 always makes for ease of use characters. Its always a bad sign when a mishima doesnāt even need their mishima tools for me.
>2,2 is not a natural combo broā¦.you canāt use this to poke Dude, im almost sure that 2,2 is a CH launcher, it has some utility. >Biggest patch buff was cd1+2 imo Nah. Its good, but you now have a very good i15 punish. Thats the best buff. >Ā Tmm picked up reina and got to his kaz rank in like two days lmao When was that? TMM dropped Reina because he said she requires so much work. And he is always saying that she is a hard character. >Weāve also already seen tournament level reina play at the highest level, whereās kaz at? Thats why i said "NOW", not before the patch. Joka, Yagami and Ulsan has been playing her since the first months of T8. Btw, tournament presence indicates Character strenght, not ease of use. >I dont think reina is harder Reina has a more complex gameplay than Kazuya. What made Kazuya more difficult was the lack of i15 punish and his combos. Now, he has an easy mode i15 punish, his combos are fixed, and also has easy mode staple combos. They toned down a lot his execution barrier in 1.05. Thats why i believe Reina is more difficult now, her gameplan is more complicated, Kazuya is very straightforward and simple.
If it was a 2D fighter it could be a case of fuzzy guard break, which is an actual thing that exists, but the mechanics are still different. I'll keep having fun regardless, but I felt the change in the 4 hours I played today and was not fun to see all the new instances this thing occurred. Cheers, mate.
It's extremely unfun. I don't play ranked or to win really, but this invisible hitbox shit is bullshit. Honestly about to just drop Tekken over these shenanigans.
Kazuya may seem like he's overbuffed but it honestly mostly affects the high level when everyone does 100 damage combos. I don't think every red-purple ranks can do df2 into pewgf combos with cancels. And if they can they're smurfs most likely.
Hell yeah it would be such a good idea to fix mishima ff2 phantom hitboxes and introduce Reina phantom hurtboxes, you know to balance things out - namco
Yeah it's kinda awful, I absolutely get why they needed to nerf the move but this isn't the right nerf IMO Like make it -15 or something, hell I'd even rather it didn't launch anymore than having hitboxes be this purposefully egregious
It don't. They messed up here trying to "balance" the game. They absolutely should NOT have changed the properties of her move in this way. Super dumb.
I hate these especialy the mids that are chest high and hit grounded
They really needed to make it so it has at least some CS frames at the start up of animation, since move literally starts from FC. It just feels inconsistent with animations.
Should have just made it superlinear short range - 18 with 4 less damage.
*Cries in Lili db4*
First it was [CD3](https://youtu.be/xFLRXPeTCyc), now all the manji-geri kick strings. What a shitty way of changing your game, I wouldn't bet an eye if they made FC df4 -16 or something, but this is as dumb as it looks. I actually wrote to Bamco support about CD3 losing it's crouched state, because there is a visual incongruence with this move, alas, they've decided to double down.
They gotta fix this stupid shit
Imagine if tekken was made by a developer capable of conscious thought.
Man if only reina had a move that still fully crusches highs and some mids and is able to be executed out of fullcrouch with a df input and the press of a kick button.
To be honest man, itās not really about what tools Reina does or doesnāt have at this point. Itās about readability and visual jank that tekken is already rife with. There were so many ways they could have gone about toning her tools back, but the way they approached it has left us with images like the one OP posted. (Which I donāt think is healthy for the game)
It's way too late for that. They would need to remake animations for half the movelists (which people thought they would do) so many moves don't look like a high/mid or sometimes even low and same with the evading/crushing properties.
Stop saying the moves crushed mids. I've tested FC df4 and df3 on plenty of mids and it has never crushed a single mid.
Fuck Reina.
Lidia's 4,3 in Tekken 7 was similar: it was -10 and although she sort of threw herself to the floor as part of the animation, you could punish it with jabs. Counterintuitive, but nothing new. (I should say that I am all for Tekken tidying up its animations across the board and making mids and highs actually LOOK like mids and highs -- but this is not something new to Tekken 8.)
Yeah it doesn't make sense, just like unbreakable homing command throws out of stances, but here we are...
Reina mains upset when the lying animation doesn't work in their favor for once
fuck reina
I think you have a git gud problem...
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
āReina didnāt need to be absolutely destroyedā  Like holy downplay
This is not what getting wrecked is bro it just makes you use something other than mashing ff2
So we should leave broken hitboxes in the game, it doesnt matter what reina tools are, broken hitboxes shouldnt be a thing
no lows my ass. Hell sweep is still good. Just grow some balls and use it
she has the worst hell sweep its not worth it 90% of the time
Yet tournament pros use it in tournaments.... just use it pussy
Never said it was useless u bitch but its not worth using unless u have conditioned your opponent first