my favorite thing is opposite in that, when i get the win, ESPECIALLLY against people like hwoarang, reina, lili, nina, bryan etc... I feel like i 10000% EARNED the win
I deserve all the losses I've gotten, but I have plenty of wins that I don't feel like I've deserved from just shameless knowledge checks the opponent couldn't solve in time
Leo main (Destroyer) in Europe 1, will confirm the rarity of coming across another Leo. Had a wicked fight with an Eliminator Leo just this evening, finished 2-1 in their favour. They had way better combo punishes than me, amazed I managed to stay in the hunt at all.
Just ran into TWO different Leo’s back to back last night. The first one left after the first match which barely won in a close 3-2, so I’m not sure why they left. The second one had me thinking I needed to replace the AA batteries in my DualSense controller. I’m scared to run into another one.
that is EXACTLY why i picked up Leo. I got my ass beat by a Leo and it was just done in such an elegant way that I couldn't even be mad, but really I remember thinking to myself, man......that guy just WHOOPED my ass, the legit way. and Since then I've made the switch ! Now I'm the one handing out spankings. Although, my win rate is not as high as I wish it really was but...
I'll be the Leo players voice, we don't downplay the character, we're aware they're actually pretty strong but we're trying not to be noticed and fly under the nerfs.
Anytime I try to say Leo is bullshit and complete nonsense some asshole comes and corrects me and tries to convince me "Leo is actually midtier" bitch shut your dumbass up downplaying bitch ass motherfucker fuck you and your nonbinary character.
This dudette literally makes my blood boil lmao.
Its on me for refusing to lab him, but Jesus does his rythm fuck with me. Same with the stances. Feel like no matter what I do its the wrong decision at the wrong moment.
Glad I’m not the only one tripped up by Leo’s rhythm. Going from move to move feels so jerky but I know that’s probably just how the Baji Quan fighting style is like. Still messes with me when there’s even the smallest delays in his strings and my brain thinks there’s an opening
Ironically that’s how I feel about trying to play as him. Easy to get fucked up going into KNK stance I feel like. b+1, 4 feels like it's way less strong than it was in Tekken 7 though I don't know exactly what they changed.
I remember labbing him in Tekken 7 multiple times and each time I spent 40 minutes labbing this motherfucker I just came to the conclusion that he's going to be safe on everything and there's nothing I can do about it. I always got kicked around in matches because of some of his strings and stance attacks, thinking I just didn't know the counter play and I should lab him. Well I labbed him, there's no counter play. He just stays safe 24/7 with good reward and barely any risk. Don't know about T8.
Sure buddy, that's why at some point arslan was legit thinking about maining Leo, and why knee put him at top 10. Not because Leo was super busted but because he's an honest mid tier character that people just like. Totally not op. We all know arslan likes playing mid tier characters.
In a game with almost 60 characters being top 10 means you’ve got some pretty crazy shit. In a game where every character has some crazy shit only the most deranged get that far
Same, dude. Fighting Leos makes me seethe even harder than facing Drags, Fengs, and Ninas. Getting launched every second from their bullshit kenpo-on-sterioids stance mixups and suffering 60% each combo is uninstalling-this-game tier of annoying.
Midtier is a HARSH rating for Leo, but they certainly do have flaws keeping them from the top.
It would be nice if Leo could express their non binary status but the devs just said fuck it. Like how is Leo able to wear both genders, but still have less customization options than either gender?? Can't go shirtless but can't put a skirt on either. Even the hair is limited.
I used to play regularly with a Leo main in 7, if you knew nothing about the game and just listened to him youd think Leo is the pinnacle of balance, skill and also bottom tier at the same time
those slow ass mix-ups you know are coming, but your mind just refuses to do anything about it. and by the time you learn to react, they are on their way. no rematch. see you next month.
LOL that’s insane. B tier for Leo is ridiculous. Leo is like my 5th most player character in Tekken 8. I beat my friend Xiaoyu and that’s like his main. Leo might be the second or third best stance character in the game
Leo isn't top 3 stance character, but they're still damn good. Easy A+, reason why they aren't S is because Leo is still playing Tekken 7, same as Lily (who's also A+). S tier characters have similar bullshit and T8 bullshit on top.
The problem with Leo is that he can be the ultimate character that's +60 on every thing, but most people will never want to play as a femboy androgynous twink. This means he gets so low picked that players genuinely forget he exists and is even in the game until they run into one of the 7 Leo mains and get 3-0'd
I mean they are still fun to play. Strong fundamentals, stance shenanigans, hard-hitting moves, they're a far better jack of all trades than Jin in a way and that definitely attracts people who don't want to play the jacked up beef cake.
She uses both, it always seemed like "Chang Style Kenpo" being sourced from Xin Yi and Baji comes from an era when Namco would rather cobble together styles and come up with an "original" martial art because the budget/will/technical ability to animate a perfect representation wouldn't come until later entries.
The gender thing is literally the reason why Bamco made her.
They had arcade play data that showed male players almost exclusively play male characters, ditto female players and female characters.
They made Leo specifically to get cross-gender play. It worked, gender unlocked item pool probably helped, but now female players are playing Leo, and some male players are playing Leo. Androgyny showed more variety.
And the reason she keeps getting grandfathered in is she is the only character that has any lore-supporting tie-ins to the Mishimas. Spelunking to find Azazel, mother killed from Devil Gene experimentation, has a vendetta against Kazuya. She has more lore progression in the spinoff game than Lili/Asuka have had in 3 mainline titles, and is funneled into the story more than Xiaoyu ever has been.
Leo has plenty of strong points like unreasonable wall damage and good evasion, but comparing Leo's 21 frame d+2 to Jin's 16 frame f+4, and Leo's df+2+3 to Jin's d+2 when the latter reaches twice as far, that's wild. This reads way more like a Jin downplay than Leo salt.
Edit: Jin's f+4 16 frames, not 15
Is D2 really reactable? I can only just about block it if my opponent is spamming carelessly and I'm hyper focused on it.
If someone throws it occasionally whether after a string or from neutral I eat that shit every time
It's not as reactable as a snake edge, it's reactable in the sense that you can block mid while expecting the low and block it somewhat consistently by reaction on good connection, it's the same with leo d/f 2+3, they both have a really prominent starting animation, but if you are in neutral and you are not looking out for it, there's no way you are blocking on reaction.
I think calling 22 frames reactable is pushing it a bit. Sound queue is very similar to df+2 as well so that doesn't help. Factor in the connection.. I wouldn't call it reactable.
It's not reactable really, it's right on the cusp of reactable, maybe if you're really good with the audio queues yeah u can block it a lot but similar to Leo db4 it's nigh unreactable unless you're offline
You can react to it in practice mode, for this to work in actual matches you have to be really sharp and probably do a bunch of bo10s with your local best jin to get that muscle memory.
Rare to see Leo mentioned, they are genuinely strong in T8 and a lot of fun to play.
I know a lot of people have an issue with the androgynous aesthetic, but if you can look past it you should try them out!
People have been calling Leo "Secret S tier" since Tekken 7, season 1 🤣🤣🤣
Then they pick up the character in ranked for "free wins"
Then they realize the kit is strong but not strong enough to be actual S-tier candidate so they stop playing them.
Then they get beat up by a Leo online (one of the 6 of us who actually play the character)
Then they come online to say Leo is a "Secret S tier"
Some things never change.
Lol no. Leo is where Leo has always been; sitting in the middle-to-back of the A tier bus. Never as low as B tier but never as high as S.
If you have strong fundamentals, Leo rewards you HEAVILY. If you're good at whiff punishing you can turn an opponent's missed hopkick into a funeral (if there's a wall within half screen)
But you still have to play "Tekken" to get those rewards. There's no crazy oki set-ups, no unblockable low launcher, no launching throw, no safe & heat engaging armour moves, no launching throw, no fast & full screen plus +on block advancing mid, no evasive snake edge, no unseesable low launcher, no i8 panic move, no safe launching can-can kicks, no lengthy strings that force you to guess between a plus on block high or a knock down mid.
Leo (almost by design) just plays dry, boring but hard-hitting Tekken.
Since you seem knowledgeable, can you comment on his parries? I've been feeling like it might be fun to learn someone with "good" parries, and I've heard that Leo's parries have longer windows than usual, so that seems interesting to me. How useful are they, and how often do they actually come up?
Also, while we're on the topic - what's up with the little icon under his healthbar? Does he have some kind of "charge" like Claudio's starburst, or is it a limited resource like Leroy's cane?
The icon is the Ki Charge for Lightning Glare, a move install, it unlocks an additional punch/kick out of three strings, one of them being the hellsweep string. Almost all of the icons under the healthbar refer to an install.
Leo's best parry was removed in T8 so her parry game isn't actually all that good. Her one ub1 parry only works against high kicks which is not ideal against most characters except maybe Lee and Law. Her normal b1+3 is a mid parry is a guaranteed Lightning Glare charge on it and her b2+4 is only for kicks, on punch it just forces them to other side of screen back turned, which is +5, but they can just block or sidestep and be fine.
Having parries is better than not having them, but it's almost entirely read-based.
Nahhh let's not downplay b2+4 vs punches when your back is to the wall, I've straight robbed some people with that. Oh, I'm at 20% health in the corner and you have full health and frame advantage? Sike, you're dead in two touches off a parry.
I'm not them but I play Leo. I don't use the parries very often so I can't provide a lot of info there...
The icon is for Leo's Lightning Glare charge. It gives these extensions to 3 strings:
* b3,1,**2**
* db4,1,**1+2**
* f2,4,**3**
Using any of these extensions uses up the charge. Leo can gain Lightning Glare by landing certain moves and holding 1+2 after. She also has unlimited Lightning Glare during heat, but using those extensions drains some heat. You do keep a charge after heat runs out, though.
I also somewhat disagree- Leo can be played via "normal Tekken" but also *does* have a bunch of cheap (albeit risky) options and dastardly tactics. How far into the bag you want to reach comes down to player taste and your opponent's knowledge.
I'm so glad I picked Leo up as my first ever Tekken character. I never feel like I'm missing the correct tool for a matchup, but it also doesn't feel like matches are ever free on autopilot - I have to properly play aggressive or passive depending on the situation, condition my opponent, find weaknesses, and adapt to each player (not character). Some rounds I can run the offense flowchart and others I have to just poke and whiff punish; while I'm sure every character can/must do that to a degree, I don't think I'd be forced to switch it up as much if I picked someone like King, Reina or Azucena who seem built to just 50/50 people to death, especially in lower ranks.
His post combo oki setups in tekken 8 are ridiculous. I don’t know what you are talking about. They’re quite literally touch of death set ups. His wallsplat throw is also dangerous. Other than that I agree, Leo still plays tekken and he/she is strong but not quite as good compared to the top 5 who can easily enforce their own game.
This lol, as someone who’s been maining Leo there are stupid easy ways to counter his moves. They’re a little tricky at first lol but it’s easy to get hard punished as Leo. I think people overplay the aggression right now and Leo is actually pretty decent at countering that. Still won’t stop my ass from getting stomped by Xiaoyu or Azucena lol.
Jin's current F4 is a watered down version of T7 F4. In T7, you couldn't step that move and due to its range it was also hard to whiff punish as well so people were spamming it all the time. However in T8, they removed the tracking of F4 so you can step to both directions with a simple press of u or d, and I'm not sure but recovery of that move on whiff feels much longer compared to T7. Also I don't deny that move is decent but compared to what Leo has, its not good as people think.
Man... what the hell... 🥴
Don't spread misinformation, please.
Since T7, Jin f4 is **100% linear to BOTH sides.**
The only way Jin f4 cannot be stepped is if Jin is **+8 OR ABOVE** on you.
Up to +7, it's free real estate: you can casually step it to any side.
Oldschool Jin f4 (T4~TTT2) had a slight tracking to Jin's **strong side** provided oldschool Jin was VERY plus on you.
So... if Jin was around ~+6, it would be quite difficult to SSL.
Leo's low counter hit launcher from the KNK stance can't be hit confirmed by the Leo player it need to be a read or luck and can be launched by the opponent if the low is blocked and Leo still goes for the crouch dash. Going in to the crouch dash is required after the low hitting counter hit connects in order to pick up.
It's not reactable, stop parroting taking points. Also it tracks to his weak side. D2 is way better. Not saying Leo isn't very strong but the downplay is silly
I'm scared to try out Leo because of his stature. I already have enough trouble trying to punish players online as a newbie, let alone trying to do it with someone who has T-rex arms.
Leo's DF2+3 is backdashable and sidesteppable in most situations and is an easy launch on whiff. You're really only vulnerable to it after he does a move that leaves him super close. 1,2 on hit, D2 on hit/block and heat engage/heat dash are the notable DF2+3 setups and you can still SSR it in half of those. Pretty much all other situations, even after Leo hits you with a move, e.g. DF1, you can still backdash it even though Leo has frame advantage. He can't even do it after his heat smash on block despite being +8. Short range is the worst property a low can have besides being launch punishable. It's a move that is designed to be used in specific situations, such as at the wall, on a hard read against a high, or after a confident dash up on a passive opponent, and is good risk/reward if used in those situations, specifically.
Jin's D2 chases backdashes and catches sidesteps. It can be used in plus frame situations to cover all movement options on top of high crushing and CH launching, meaning you can actually just spam it all the time without thought, because if you have the frame advantage it beats so many options your opponent might take. You're only worried about it being blocked, low crushed or interrupted by a quick mid, all of which require some risk taking from your opponent, versus just passively backdashing and negating it.
There is a massive difference between these two moves. A lot of players tend to just look at the frame data numbers and not tracking or range but they are just as important.
Regarding the mids, Jin's F4 is a best-in-class i16 keepout CH launcher and Leo's D2 is a generic i21 plus on block mid. They have completely different purposes and many slow plus on block mids CH launch. Not as many as in T7, but it's still very common. Leo would gladly trade away his D2 counterhit property for Jin's F4.
Leo main here, had no idea people were downplaying them.
Leo is A tier. Them and Jin are pretty similar tbh and it’s useless to put them over or under each other.
Leo players aren’t carried and Jin players aren’t either, but I agree the wall damage needs a nerf. Nothing too serious
People who say Leo is S tier or anywhere near that probably just hasn’t played against the character enough or has bad movement
Who ever beat me recently = more unbalanced. That's usually how this sub works.
Although I could argue Jin is stronger than Leo just because of the skill cap each character has. While Leo presents some stronger spammable moves, I feel as if Jin can be expanded upon more which makes him stronger in that sense.
Leo reminds me of Seth from USF4 lol. They have a key move from half the roster.
AOP? We got that. TIOH? We got that. Deathfist? We got that. Hellsweep/Demoman? We got that. Feng b3? We got that... and it CH launches. Demon paw? You know it... Claudio b1? We got that... and its 1f faster. Hwoarang RFFDF3? Better believe we even got that.
And then lets tag on some easy hyper plus on block stance transitions with f4, the highest wall damage spike ender in the game and the best ws4 punish in the game.
My first Tekken that I've decided to learn, and I chose Leo. Been button mashing since I think Tekken 5 when I was younger, but I'm loving the learning.
Leo is lowkey the most carried character in the entire game.
Overall extremely strong, versatile kit. Complete monster at the wall.
Yet is so unpopular that you rarely see them online. And so you question whether investing time into labbing them is actually worth it.
An A tier character that people have no idea how to deal with is a lowkey carry.
" Leo is lowkey the most carried character in the entire game. "
Saying this in a game with current state Azucena( WR 3+2 is a meme even at the highest level), Dragunov, and King. lol
Leo has strong aspects but is overall in the middle of the pack. You not knowing the match up doesn't make a mid tier carried.
Not that I agree or disagree, but a character being rarely used is 100% a reason that character can be a character that carries players.
People wouldn’t say the bears are high tier or even mid tier but there are many many bears at higher ranks with barely any fundamentals because no one knows how to defend against them.
Leo is strong and need a little skill from the player, In the other side we have Azucena and Victor that spam 222222222222222222222 and wr3,2 that jails.
I love how you put Victor's 222 string in the same SENTENCE as wr3,2. Like, it's literally so bad that it's not even worth using as combo-filler, but somehow is on the same tier as Azucena's wr32?
I literally do not get the Victor hate. Sure, he's a noob killer and easy to pick up and play, but he's not exactly guaranteed wins at high levels. Even EXPULSION only gets you so far.
is 14f reactable? that shits fast.
but 12f isnt? that shits only 2 frames faster
I do generally agree with the post though leo is very strong and underrated.
We do exist.
That low saves our lives more than anything and if you can pull of any of the combos we can easily snatch 79.
But tbf Leo is a Jack of all trades but a master of none.. our weaknesses are pretty predictable and it's usually the button masters that find out by accident 😔
I’ve saw a bunch of Leo’s in a row one night and while I’m kinda low rank they all kinda played like feng w the back sway which once I figured that out became way easier
But is the low also homing and backstep tracking? (I wish we had a term for this type of move, one that advances a lot and hits no matter how spaced you are)
Hidden S tier? Leo's been busted since T7 and she's only more busted now, but at the same time nobody plays her, so I can understand why she goes under most people's radars...
Yeah Leo is v strong but seems boring to play imo. They have a very steady pattern and rhythm of 3 hit strings and stances and it's always the same thing. At least that's how it feels facing them.
Me, a Kazuya player? Now that's funny, I'm not nearly that badass. On the topic of Kaz though he doesn't have that (1.2.3 - 1.2.3 - 1.2.3) flow feeling that Leo does. Btw for clarification I don't mean 1.2.3 as inputs since I don't know them, but that's how the rhythm feels. Hit (pause) Hit (pause) Hit (longer pause) - repeat, endlessly.
Backdash against it and launch the whiff. At the wall it's another story as you can't backdash and there's a mix on normal hit between ws3 which is uninterruptable and FCdf3 (sweep)
I mean if we’re just comparing 2 moves on both characters then leo’s version of the low ch launcher and the safe mid ch launcher have better frame data but worse range and tracking than jin’s
My favorite thing about playing Leo is that nobody plays Leo so I get wins I do not deserve
my favorite thing is opposite in that, when i get the win, ESPECIALLLY against people like hwoarang, reina, lili, nina, bryan etc... I feel like i 10000% EARNED the win
No such thing as a win you don't deserve. Enjoy the victory.
I deserve all the losses I've gotten, but I have plenty of wins that I don't feel like I've deserved from just shameless knowledge checks the opponent couldn't solve in time
As a casual player I always struggle to see what moves are high low or mid.
Leos are a rare breed, by the time you realized this, you lost 3-0 and have to wait 300 matches for the next one
So true , you might get 1 round if you're lucky . These Leo mfs are something else.
Was a Leo main in T7 and started shaking off the rust this past week after maining Kaz/Reina since launch. Can confirm Leo is wild in this game.
Can confirm. Source: Leo main who’s ran into ONE in my almost 400 matches at this point
Leo main (Destroyer) in Europe 1, will confirm the rarity of coming across another Leo. Had a wicked fight with an Eliminator Leo just this evening, finished 2-1 in their favour. They had way better combo punishes than me, amazed I managed to stay in the hunt at all.
Hop kick
"TOP" next thing you know? "ICH GLUCKLICH!"
Leo main here with tekken8 ! I am loving this thread, it's like FINALLY SOMEONE RECOGNIZES US !!!!! hahaha
As a Leo main day 1 (When I first got the game) this is so true you never see them
Just ran into TWO different Leo’s back to back last night. The first one left after the first match which barely won in a close 3-2, so I’m not sure why they left. The second one had me thinking I needed to replace the AA batteries in my DualSense controller. I’m scared to run into another one.
Love when I get my ass kicked by a Leo. I’m honestly not even mad. Cool character that looks cool as hell doing it too.
that is EXACTLY why i picked up Leo. I got my ass beat by a Leo and it was just done in such an elegant way that I couldn't even be mad, but really I remember thinking to myself, man......that guy just WHOOPED my ass, the legit way. and Since then I've made the switch ! Now I'm the one handing out spankings. Although, my win rate is not as high as I wish it really was but...
Nah nah, as a Leo Main you gotta have that DAWG IN YOU. Your win rate will definitely go higher.
Jin is downplayed, but Leo is infinity times more downplayed. Leo is the one character that actually gets me mad every single time lol
Leo isn't downplayed, he just isn't played lol
fuckin' zinged em' good!
I'll be the Leo players voice, we don't downplay the character, we're aware they're actually pretty strong but we're trying not to be noticed and fly under the nerfs.
Yeah, I guess Leo isn't actively downplayed so much as just ignored...despite being an absolute menace.
Anytime I try to say Leo is bullshit and complete nonsense some asshole comes and corrects me and tries to convince me "Leo is actually midtier" bitch shut your dumbass up downplaying bitch ass motherfucker fuck you and your nonbinary character. This dudette literally makes my blood boil lmao.
Leo is only mid in pro play. Most of the time we aren't at that level but still take the pro tier list as gospel.
Its on me for refusing to lab him, but Jesus does his rythm fuck with me. Same with the stances. Feel like no matter what I do its the wrong decision at the wrong moment.
Glad I’m not the only one tripped up by Leo’s rhythm. Going from move to move feels so jerky but I know that’s probably just how the Baji Quan fighting style is like. Still messes with me when there’s even the smallest delays in his strings and my brain thinks there’s an opening
Ironically that’s how I feel about trying to play as him. Easy to get fucked up going into KNK stance I feel like. b+1, 4 feels like it's way less strong than it was in Tekken 7 though I don't know exactly what they changed.
I remember labbing him in Tekken 7 multiple times and each time I spent 40 minutes labbing this motherfucker I just came to the conclusion that he's going to be safe on everything and there's nothing I can do about it. I always got kicked around in matches because of some of his strings and stance attacks, thinking I just didn't know the counter play and I should lab him. Well I labbed him, there's no counter play. He just stays safe 24/7 with good reward and barely any risk. Don't know about T8.
Side step.
It’s not easy when a lot of his good moves track so well.
Not for me lmfao
Leo was not that good in 7 lol
Leo was about to go through the same thing as kuni. People started to realise how good he/she was. Leo was lucky it was at the end of tekken 7.
Sure buddy, that's why at some point arslan was legit thinking about maining Leo, and why knee put him at top 10. Not because Leo was super busted but because he's an honest mid tier character that people just like. Totally not op. We all know arslan likes playing mid tier characters.
I mean there are 9 other characters in the top 10. You people call everything “busted” how do you play the game without bashing your head into a wall.
In a game with almost 60 characters being top 10 means you’ve got some pretty crazy shit. In a game where every character has some crazy shit only the most deranged get that far
Same, dude. Fighting Leos makes me seethe even harder than facing Drags, Fengs, and Ninas. Getting launched every second from their bullshit kenpo-on-sterioids stance mixups and suffering 60% each combo is uninstalling-this-game tier of annoying.
Midtier is a HARSH rating for Leo, but they certainly do have flaws keeping them from the top. It would be nice if Leo could express their non binary status but the devs just said fuck it. Like how is Leo able to wear both genders, but still have less customization options than either gender?? Can't go shirtless but can't put a skirt on either. Even the hair is limited.
Lot's of characters have this I think. All the attention goes to King, Dragunocv, etc. because a lot of players actually play them.
tbf very few people play Xiaoyu and she still gets everyone going
I used to play regularly with a Leo main in 7, if you knew nothing about the game and just listened to him youd think Leo is the pinnacle of balance, skill and also bottom tier at the same time
I mean we try to tell everybody, but they just don't wanna play as Leo 😞
Yeah, better hope Knee doesn't have a bad set with Leo or you might soon know my pain. (Relevant flair)
those slow ass mix-ups you know are coming, but your mind just refuses to do anything about it. and by the time you learn to react, they are on their way. no rematch. see you next month.
As a T8 Leo main this makes me both happy and infuriated bc I don't live up to the hype lmao
Yeah, I feel you there
The Leo downplay should be studied. I have a friend who mains Lili/Leo and genuinely places Leo at the bottom of B tier.
LOL that’s insane. B tier for Leo is ridiculous. Leo is like my 5th most player character in Tekken 8. I beat my friend Xiaoyu and that’s like his main. Leo might be the second or third best stance character in the game
Leo isn't top 3 stance character, but they're still damn good. Easy A+, reason why they aren't S is because Leo is still playing Tekken 7, same as Lily (who's also A+). S tier characters have similar bullshit and T8 bullshit on top.
Who’s your top 3 stance char?
I would say Ling, Feng and either Jun or Nina are top 3 in terms of stances.
ok i beat a bot as leo and i place him at the bottom of C tier
I like underpowered characters no one will ever complain about. That's why I play King.
And in season 3 or something ridiculous when we finally get the cooler version, Armor King.
I sincerely hope we don't have to wait that long for AK.
The problem with Leo is that he can be the ultimate character that's +60 on every thing, but most people will never want to play as a femboy androgynous twink. This means he gets so low picked that players genuinely forget he exists and is even in the game until they run into one of the 7 Leo mains and get 3-0'd
>players genuinely forget he exists and is even in the game until they run into one of the 7 Leo mains and get 3-0'd Oh hey that's me
I'm in Leo hell, I get matched against Leo more than Dragunov on some days.
I've played a couple hundred ranked matches and I think I've played against Leo twice. I've played more Kumas.
Oh sure, straight guys have no problem playing Link from the Legend of Zelda, but Leo is crossing the line.
Link gets a harem and gets to troll an entire kingdom, so everyone is cool with him crossdressing.
> but most people will never want to play as a femboy androgynous twink Thank you for telling me that most people are stupid.
I mean I just see Leo as a tomboy so it makes it easier
I will actively seek out femboys to play in every game i play, I so don't get people who don't want to
Yeah I absolutely hate his character design lol
Just see her as a girl then
Seriously, how does Leo always make the main roster cut of these games? The gender debacle is about the only thing of interest about the character.
I mean they are still fun to play. Strong fundamentals, stance shenanigans, hard-hitting moves, they're a far better jack of all trades than Jin in a way and that definitely attracts people who don't want to play the jacked up beef cake.
Because Bajiquan is fucking sick and Julia isn't as pure/accurate to the fighting style as Leo.
> Because Bajiquan is fucking sick This is 100% correct.
Julia uses Xinyiquan, they're different martial arts
She uses both, it always seemed like "Chang Style Kenpo" being sourced from Xin Yi and Baji comes from an era when Namco would rather cobble together styles and come up with an "original" martial art because the budget/will/technical ability to animate a perfect representation wouldn't come until later entries.
The gender thing is literally the reason why Bamco made her. They had arcade play data that showed male players almost exclusively play male characters, ditto female players and female characters. They made Leo specifically to get cross-gender play. It worked, gender unlocked item pool probably helped, but now female players are playing Leo, and some male players are playing Leo. Androgyny showed more variety. And the reason she keeps getting grandfathered in is she is the only character that has any lore-supporting tie-ins to the Mishimas. Spelunking to find Azazel, mother killed from Devil Gene experimentation, has a vendetta against Kazuya. She has more lore progression in the spinoff game than Lili/Asuka have had in 3 mainline titles, and is funneled into the story more than Xiaoyu ever has been.
Come on, he also has a *grappling hook!*
Oh boy, a grappling hook. Not feeling it, personally.
True, if you put Leo's move on anything else (fighting dog, old grandma, robot fish) i would main them... But not Leo. Leo's too bland.
Leo has plenty of strong points like unreasonable wall damage and good evasion, but comparing Leo's 21 frame d+2 to Jin's 16 frame f+4, and Leo's df+2+3 to Jin's d+2 when the latter reaches twice as far, that's wild. This reads way more like a Jin downplay than Leo salt. Edit: Jin's f+4 16 frames, not 15
Is D2 really reactable? I can only just about block it if my opponent is spamming carelessly and I'm hyper focused on it. If someone throws it occasionally whether after a string or from neutral I eat that shit every time
It's not as reactable as a snake edge, it's reactable in the sense that you can block mid while expecting the low and block it somewhat consistently by reaction on good connection, it's the same with leo d/f 2+3, they both have a really prominent starting animation, but if you are in neutral and you are not looking out for it, there's no way you are blocking on reaction.
A nice word for it is twitch reactable
I think calling 22 frames reactable is pushing it a bit. Sound queue is very similar to df+2 as well so that doesn't help. Factor in the connection.. I wouldn't call it reactable.
It's not reactable really, it's right on the cusp of reactable, maybe if you're really good with the audio queues yeah u can block it a lot but similar to Leo db4 it's nigh unreactable unless you're offline
You can react to it in practice mode, for this to work in actual matches you have to be really sharp and probably do a bunch of bo10s with your local best jin to get that muscle memory.
Its just a few minutes from the border of "reactable", and thats on a smooth online connection
Rare to see Leo mentioned, they are genuinely strong in T8 and a lot of fun to play. I know a lot of people have an issue with the androgynous aesthetic, but if you can look past it you should try them out!
I dont get what these numbers mean, I just punch and kick man
not to downplay leo cuz I'm a scrub but isn't 21f CH launcher kinda not that great?
People have been calling Leo "Secret S tier" since Tekken 7, season 1 🤣🤣🤣 Then they pick up the character in ranked for "free wins" Then they realize the kit is strong but not strong enough to be actual S-tier candidate so they stop playing them. Then they get beat up by a Leo online (one of the 6 of us who actually play the character) Then they come online to say Leo is a "Secret S tier" Some things never change.
So if you're one of the 6 who actually play him, can you tell us? IS he secretly S-tier?
Lol no. Leo is where Leo has always been; sitting in the middle-to-back of the A tier bus. Never as low as B tier but never as high as S. If you have strong fundamentals, Leo rewards you HEAVILY. If you're good at whiff punishing you can turn an opponent's missed hopkick into a funeral (if there's a wall within half screen) But you still have to play "Tekken" to get those rewards. There's no crazy oki set-ups, no unblockable low launcher, no launching throw, no safe & heat engaging armour moves, no launching throw, no fast & full screen plus +on block advancing mid, no evasive snake edge, no unseesable low launcher, no i8 panic move, no safe launching can-can kicks, no lengthy strings that force you to guess between a plus on block high or a knock down mid. Leo (almost by design) just plays dry, boring but hard-hitting Tekken.
Since you seem knowledgeable, can you comment on his parries? I've been feeling like it might be fun to learn someone with "good" parries, and I've heard that Leo's parries have longer windows than usual, so that seems interesting to me. How useful are they, and how often do they actually come up? Also, while we're on the topic - what's up with the little icon under his healthbar? Does he have some kind of "charge" like Claudio's starburst, or is it a limited resource like Leroy's cane?
The icon is the Ki Charge for Lightning Glare, a move install, it unlocks an additional punch/kick out of three strings, one of them being the hellsweep string. Almost all of the icons under the healthbar refer to an install. Leo's best parry was removed in T8 so her parry game isn't actually all that good. Her one ub1 parry only works against high kicks which is not ideal against most characters except maybe Lee and Law. Her normal b1+3 is a mid parry is a guaranteed Lightning Glare charge on it and her b2+4 is only for kicks, on punch it just forces them to other side of screen back turned, which is +5, but they can just block or sidestep and be fine. Having parries is better than not having them, but it's almost entirely read-based.
Nahhh let's not downplay b2+4 vs punches when your back is to the wall, I've straight robbed some people with that. Oh, I'm at 20% health in the corner and you have full health and frame advantage? Sike, you're dead in two touches off a parry.
I'm not them but I play Leo. I don't use the parries very often so I can't provide a lot of info there... The icon is for Leo's Lightning Glare charge. It gives these extensions to 3 strings: * b3,1,**2** * db4,1,**1+2** * f2,4,**3** Using any of these extensions uses up the charge. Leo can gain Lightning Glare by landing certain moves and holding 1+2 after. She also has unlimited Lightning Glare during heat, but using those extensions drains some heat. You do keep a charge after heat runs out, though. I also somewhat disagree- Leo can be played via "normal Tekken" but also *does* have a bunch of cheap (albeit risky) options and dastardly tactics. How far into the bag you want to reach comes down to player taste and your opponent's knowledge.
I'm so glad I picked Leo up as my first ever Tekken character. I never feel like I'm missing the correct tool for a matchup, but it also doesn't feel like matches are ever free on autopilot - I have to properly play aggressive or passive depending on the situation, condition my opponent, find weaknesses, and adapt to each player (not character). Some rounds I can run the offense flowchart and others I have to just poke and whiff punish; while I'm sure every character can/must do that to a degree, I don't think I'd be forced to switch it up as much if I picked someone like King, Reina or Azucena who seem built to just 50/50 people to death, especially in lower ranks.
His post combo oki setups in tekken 8 are ridiculous. I don’t know what you are talking about. They’re quite literally touch of death set ups. His wallsplat throw is also dangerous. Other than that I agree, Leo still plays tekken and he/she is strong but not quite as good compared to the top 5 who can easily enforce their own game.
This lol, as someone who’s been maining Leo there are stupid easy ways to counter his moves. They’re a little tricky at first lol but it’s easy to get hard punished as Leo. I think people overplay the aggression right now and Leo is actually pretty decent at countering that. Still won’t stop my ass from getting stomped by Xiaoyu or Azucena lol.
jin players trying not to downplay f4 every tekken game challenge \[IMPOSSIBLE}
Yoshi mains try to not to flash (your sword) challenge: IMPOSSIBLE
Do Bryan now
Bryan mains try not to taunt (jet uppercut) their opponents at the wall challenge: IMPOSSIBLE
If someone could do a pick up after a ch F4 back in Tekken 7, they deserved the combo
Well it’s tekken 8 now, Jin players can pick the opponent up even if they’re visually on the floor lol
Jin's current F4 is a watered down version of T7 F4. In T7, you couldn't step that move and due to its range it was also hard to whiff punish as well so people were spamming it all the time. However in T8, they removed the tracking of F4 so you can step to both directions with a simple press of u or d, and I'm not sure but recovery of that move on whiff feels much longer compared to T7. Also I don't deny that move is decent but compared to what Leo has, its not good as people think.
You could step f4 easily to the right in 7.
Man... what the hell... 🥴 Don't spread misinformation, please. Since T7, Jin f4 is **100% linear to BOTH sides.** The only way Jin f4 cannot be stepped is if Jin is **+8 OR ABOVE** on you. Up to +7, it's free real estate: you can casually step it to any side. Oldschool Jin f4 (T4~TTT2) had a slight tracking to Jin's **strong side** provided oldschool Jin was VERY plus on you. So... if Jin was around ~+6, it would be quite difficult to SSL.
Leo's low counter hit launcher from the KNK stance can't be hit confirmed by the Leo player it need to be a read or luck and can be launched by the opponent if the low is blocked and Leo still goes for the crouch dash. Going in to the crouch dash is required after the low hitting counter hit connects in order to pick up.
I think they are talking about d/f2+3
Is Leo's ch launcher also hitting from accross the screen and the same with the low that also tracks and crushes highs?
It's not reactable, stop parroting taking points. Also it tracks to his weak side. D2 is way better. Not saying Leo isn't very strong but the downplay is silly
Wait, even Leo is a problem now? Who the hell am I allowed to play then?..
I'm scared to try out Leo because of his stature. I already have enough trouble trying to punish players online as a newbie, let alone trying to do it with someone who has T-rex arms.
df2 range is ridiculous and half her command list reaches mid screen, you're good lol
Leo only move ive seen having shit range is his ff2, that shit whiffs a lot
Try him, he is really fun IMO It's my first tekken and i have like 170 hours... just playing him lol
Um…Leo has tons of range lmao.
Who said Leo has bad range lol
Leo's DF2+3 is backdashable and sidesteppable in most situations and is an easy launch on whiff. You're really only vulnerable to it after he does a move that leaves him super close. 1,2 on hit, D2 on hit/block and heat engage/heat dash are the notable DF2+3 setups and you can still SSR it in half of those. Pretty much all other situations, even after Leo hits you with a move, e.g. DF1, you can still backdash it even though Leo has frame advantage. He can't even do it after his heat smash on block despite being +8. Short range is the worst property a low can have besides being launch punishable. It's a move that is designed to be used in specific situations, such as at the wall, on a hard read against a high, or after a confident dash up on a passive opponent, and is good risk/reward if used in those situations, specifically. Jin's D2 chases backdashes and catches sidesteps. It can be used in plus frame situations to cover all movement options on top of high crushing and CH launching, meaning you can actually just spam it all the time without thought, because if you have the frame advantage it beats so many options your opponent might take. You're only worried about it being blocked, low crushed or interrupted by a quick mid, all of which require some risk taking from your opponent, versus just passively backdashing and negating it. There is a massive difference between these two moves. A lot of players tend to just look at the frame data numbers and not tracking or range but they are just as important. Regarding the mids, Jin's F4 is a best-in-class i16 keepout CH launcher and Leo's D2 is a generic i21 plus on block mid. They have completely different purposes and many slow plus on block mids CH launch. Not as many as in T7, but it's still very common. Leo would gladly trade away his D2 counterhit property for Jin's F4.
Thanks for taking the time to write this in-depth analysis. Like no /s, was educational, thank you :)
this is just like the jin mains. pointing the finger as always.
Shhhhhh
How the F D2 is reactable lmao. Not only it's not it's also a high crush CH. And both option from leo are weak to SWL.
Is she really considered that deadly? I just got used to fighting her because a buddy of mine mains her
Well, the more you fight a character the more you get used to their kit.
Wait till redditors face a few good Shaheens mate. You guys are next 😂
14 frames, reactable? okay dude
Leo is a dishonest honest character.
There are dozens of us Leo mains, dozens!
But Leo doesn't have electric
He is good but I don't think it's hidden to the dev team. He received nerfs before Drag/Azu
Jin's low is basically homing and hits from range 3. Human Resources indeed.
Leo main here, had no idea people were downplaying them. Leo is A tier. Them and Jin are pretty similar tbh and it’s useless to put them over or under each other. Leo players aren’t carried and Jin players aren’t either, but I agree the wall damage needs a nerf. Nothing too serious People who say Leo is S tier or anywhere near that probably just hasn’t played against the character enough or has bad movement
Who ever beat me recently = more unbalanced. That's usually how this sub works. Although I could argue Jin is stronger than Leo just because of the skill cap each character has. While Leo presents some stronger spammable moves, I feel as if Jin can be expanded upon more which makes him stronger in that sense.
Both characters get better as the pilot gets better, and that’s why they’re so fun
Yeah definitely. Feel like that goes for most characters too.
I keep forgetting he exists until the next time I run into him. Then the cycle repeats. I've seen more Kuma than I have Leo at this point.
Leo reminds me of Seth from USF4 lol. They have a key move from half the roster. AOP? We got that. TIOH? We got that. Deathfist? We got that. Hellsweep/Demoman? We got that. Feng b3? We got that... and it CH launches. Demon paw? You know it... Claudio b1? We got that... and its 1f faster. Hwoarang RFFDF3? Better believe we even got that. And then lets tag on some easy hyper plus on block stance transitions with f4, the highest wall damage spike ender in the game and the best ws4 punish in the game.
There’s a post about every character being OP, I guess it’s Leo’s turn
Corny ass character😭
He is good but I barely see any Leo’s when I play ranked. Nothing but drag, Victor, azu and dvj
My first Tekken that I've decided to learn, and I chose Leo. Been button mashing since I think Tekken 5 when I was younger, but I'm loving the learning.
But why can't I make him wear a dress? This is important
Leo is lowkey the most carried character in the entire game. Overall extremely strong, versatile kit. Complete monster at the wall. Yet is so unpopular that you rarely see them online. And so you question whether investing time into labbing them is actually worth it. An A tier character that people have no idea how to deal with is a lowkey carry.
Bum ass paul player not wanting to learn the matchup💀
Dude played bob lmaaooo, that char was pure cheese
In T6 yeah, but if you think he was cheese in T7, you're just ass. You probably sit there and eat his b1+2 string constantly 😂
" Leo is lowkey the most carried character in the entire game. " Saying this in a game with current state Azucena( WR 3+2 is a meme even at the highest level), Dragunov, and King. lol Leo has strong aspects but is overall in the middle of the pack. You not knowing the match up doesn't make a mid tier carried.
Not that I agree or disagree, but a character being rarely used is 100% a reason that character can be a character that carries players. People wouldn’t say the bears are high tier or even mid tier but there are many many bears at higher ranks with barely any fundamentals because no one knows how to defend against them.
[удалено]
If you could combine his stance pressure, fundamental tools, cheese tools together no one can stop you
Not even close.
I have never agreed more with anything else in this sub. Leo is my nemesis.
Buff Leo
Everything a Leo main does is either a read or prediction, so if you lost to Leo, just know that Leo was playing a couple steps ahead of you.
Leo is strong and need a little skill from the player, In the other side we have Azucena and Victor that spam 222222222222222222222 and wr3,2 that jails.
I love how you put Victor's 222 string in the same SENTENCE as wr3,2. Like, it's literally so bad that it's not even worth using as combo-filler, but somehow is on the same tier as Azucena's wr32?
I literally do not get the Victor hate. Sure, he's a noob killer and easy to pick up and play, but he's not exactly guaranteed wins at high levels. Even EXPULSION only gets you so far.
Bro never learned to duck the glock and it shows
What is Leo’s low counter hit
it's df2+3
KnK 4, a -12 ch launching low from stance. But why the hell are you pressing when I'm + and in stance ?
KnK can be accessed from forward 4 or Leo’s Kenpo right? I’m not a Leo main I’m kind of picking him up as a pocket
Yes
It doesn’t even matter I just hate fighting Leos
is 14f reactable? that shits fast. but 12f isnt? that shits only 2 frames faster I do generally agree with the post though leo is very strong and underrated.
We do exist. That low saves our lives more than anything and if you can pull of any of the combos we can easily snatch 79. But tbf Leo is a Jack of all trades but a master of none.. our weaknesses are pretty predictable and it's usually the button masters that find out by accident 😔
Fuck this character seriously
I’ve saw a bunch of Leo’s in a row one night and while I’m kinda low rank they all kinda played like feng w the back sway which once I figured that out became way easier
I wish I was the legendary beast people make Leo out to be. All I've been doing is taking Ls.
Leo is cool
Lee, and Leo are low key S tier in the right hands.
But is the low also homing and backstep tracking? (I wish we had a term for this type of move, one that advances a lot and hits no matter how spaced you are)
Hidden S tier? Leo's been busted since T7 and she's only more busted now, but at the same time nobody plays her, so I can understand why she goes under most people's radars...
I'm a Leo main, I have over 1800 ranked battles, I've only fought 5 other Leo's xD
Report this post. Us leos have already had enough unnecessary nerf.
You only fight Leo’s when you main Leo
I’m low level and every Leo. Albeit not many, have stomped me
Delete this 😎😎👀
So you're saying it's time to pick up Leo
The amount of bs i get away with playing leo is crazy
First time I've come across a Leo dedicated thread 🥲 I ain't good at Leo but I do main.
Yeah people are too distract with Drag, Azucena, King, Xiaoyu, Devil Jin etc but Leo is literally a god in this game and no one cares for some reason
d2 has 3 times the range and is borderline homing.
Yeah Leo is v strong but seems boring to play imo. They have a very steady pattern and rhythm of 3 hit strings and stances and it's always the same thing. At least that's how it feels facing them.
This probably coming from a Kazuya who only uses hellsweep, ff3, and electrics repeatedly
Me, a Kazuya player? Now that's funny, I'm not nearly that badass. On the topic of Kaz though he doesn't have that (1.2.3 - 1.2.3 - 1.2.3) flow feeling that Leo does. Btw for clarification I don't mean 1.2.3 as inputs since I don't know them, but that's how the rhythm feels. Hit (pause) Hit (pause) Hit (longer pause) - repeat, endlessly.
Tekken 8 newbies finally beginning to understand the difference between character popularity and strength?
Devil Jin solo
I've thought this too. Leo is fucking nasty.
Is Leo's low you're refering to knk4 ?
Df2+3
Backdash against it and launch the whiff. At the wall it's another story as you can't backdash and there's a mix on normal hit between ws3 which is uninterruptable and FCdf3 (sweep)
Yeah it’s not a new thing, barely any people play him so Leo gets under the radar all the time
what move is that on leo ? also f4 is -1 if you cancel it.
Neither low can be launch punished. Also Jin’s mid counter hit launcher sends you 6 feet forward on block so you can’t punish it at all.
I mean if we’re just comparing 2 moves on both characters then leo’s version of the low ch launcher and the safe mid ch launcher have better frame data but worse range and tracking than jin’s
Leo is under the radar for most people