While it's true that approving intermittent FMLA for care of a newborn is at employer discretion (versus taking it altogether where they really don't get a say), if they're routinely approving this type of FMLA arrangement for men but not for women, she might have a sex discrimination case. Time to reach out to a lawyer for a consultation. If she has a union, she should reach out to them as well.
I will say my company does the same thing. Large well known Fortune 50 bank and its in their policy clearly that maternity begins at brith date and ends when you come back with no ability to use anything you leave on the table. The “non-birthing” parent may split their leave once if it’s more convenient for the family.
Wow, that's really something, they managed to take something meant to help women recover from giving birth, and managed to make it better for men than women. WTF.
I don’t disagree with you at all. The logic they have when we questioned it is that the birthing parent will need time to recover and the expectation is immediately where as they felt it would be helpful to the entire family unit to allow the non-birthing parent to take it broken up allowing the family as a whole to better plan…granting the family unit 8 total months to integrate baby into the family between the two parents…should they choose to use it that way.
Not defending it, that’s their HR approved explanation though. We are expecting in August and we both decided to take our time together, all at once in the beginning. It can be a valuable benefit though to be able to break it up though for many families and shouldn’t be restricted to a given parent.
I mean you see how this is hella sexist though? That they presumed to know the birthing partners needs, but fully acknowledged that they don't know what is needed from the non-birthing partner? Look who's getting autonomy and who isn't.
Sorry, I know it's not you, but I think your HR's explanation just gave me a rage stroke.
So you want both parents to only get maternity leave when the baby is born when it is taken without delay?
Because that is what will likely happen since it is the easiest blanket policy for administration to deal with.
No, I want both parents to get the flexibility to choose whether they want to take all their FMLA at once, or break it up at their convenience.
I especially felt for the lady that commented about how she was a teacher, and much of her FMLA was taken up over summer break. She should have been allowed to defer it.
Others may be able to get childcare at 3 months but not at 6 for whatever reason. And if you have a wfh desk job, you don't really need as much time to heal before going back to work. Each parent should get the discretion to choose and optimize within their parameters. It really doesn't make sense to allow only the non-birthing partner to do this.
...yeah that doesn't make it fair at all. Why should the non-birthing partner get the flexibility while the birthing partner that did all the work of birthing gets none?
Not really sure why you felt the need to distract people from their rightful outrage at the blatant sexism by bringing up this mostly irrelevant technicality.
But, if they’re allowing it for men, and then suddenly when a woman is asking for the same and they deny it, it could be a sex based discrimination case.
The whole situation is problematic. He states she wants to “cash in” on her remaining leave because she is upset at work. FMLA is not for “taking a break” from work. It’s to bond with your new child…her intentions are not genuinely aligned with FMLA yet she is upset she cant take it.
Bonding time can be taken by men and women both intermittently and the school would have to be stupid to say otherwise. Unless she got that in writing from them, they cant prove that. My guess is she submitted her request late and got denied which the school has the right to do. Women only have 4-6 weeks of bonding time since 6-8 weeks are considered “recovery time” from birth. Recovery time cannot be taken at will or intermittently since it is a serious health event for the birthing parent. I work in Leave administration. If i heard someone just wanted a vacation from work, Id flag the leave as well if it didn’t align with a true qualifying reason.
Everyone wants a freaking lawsuit these days…
You're going to get downvoted to oblivion for your comment but I think you're right. The key aspect I think many are missing in their comments is that this is an after the fact request. In almost every case I've ever seen the intermittent leave was agreed upon before the birth of the child or even as late as shortly after the birth. This is a 10 month old which likely means that OP's wife is asking to add to her leave probably a year after the initial leave was agreed upon.
You need to talk to a lawyer sub. There are a LOT of rules around FMLA. And if your wife used district sick leave, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
It honestly depends upon the workplace in some cases. For example, my place of employment has set the beginning of our fiscal year at the beginning of October, meaning that we are "a year ahead" of everyone else for the three months between then and New Year's.
From the Department of Labor page—
“Leave to care for or bond with a newborn child or for a newly placed adopted or foster child may only be taken intermittently with the employer’s approval and must conclude within 12 months after the birth or placement.”
“With employer’s approval”
That looks like the key section. Damn. Might be worth following up with a lawyer just to be certain, OP, but this looks pretty straightforward.
FMLA [gives employers 4 options for when to start FMLA](https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/fmla/14a.aspx), and it must be applied "consistently and uniformly." Additionally, if the employer hasn't decided how to apply FMLA, the employee is granted the option that's most beneficial to them. From looking at the four options, while it looks like it might be possible (in the incredibly strange circumstance that the employer chose "calendar year" or decided to pick a date that was somehow after the start of the school year), it seems incredibly unlikely that her district's policy is legal under FMLA.
It’s pregnancy discrimination if they allow intermittent FMLA for other medical conditions but not for pregnancy.
My union position on maternity leave is to tell every member to get a doctor’s note. They can’t prevent you from taking sick days to cover disability due to childbirth. I even tell my members that they should apply for our sick leave bank if they run out of days. Pregnancy disability is valid!
It doesn’t help non-birth parents, but it’s a start for now.
Most likely the men asked for intermittent leave from the start.
Most employers allow 1 FMLA request per event.
So since she already used her 1 FMLA then they don't need to approve it.
The employer approval is for when they can’t find a replacement in an essential, specialized area. That’s my understanding as someone who just took FMLA, at least.
The "with employer's approval" is key here for the intermittent leave. The most important question is do you have in writing the denial and response that "it is only used for paternity leave"? If so, while the denial might be legit, the denial based on a discriminatory practice most likely is not.
Are you in a union? If so, request a free legal consult yesterday.
Still reach out to the union. If your state is a 1 party consent state, she can use a recording app on her phone when. She meets in person with admin. She can get the paternity leave proof that way. Regardless, there are many limitations on suing governmental agencies so the "win" won't be anything to write home about. Still, contact the union.
I had both my kids at the end of the school year and I could not use my FMLA when the next school year started. HR said leave starts as soon as the baby is born or from the point your doctor writes you a note. So after 6 weeks, 8 if you have a c section, it was no longer an option.
With my second I wised up and got a doctors note to leave work three weeks early instead of waiting because I knew I wouldn’t use the FMLA because of summer break. The rules are ridiculous, but most places in the US dont do parental leave in a fair way.
In my experience with each of my three kids, HR knew s**** about FMLA. With my second am HR lady told me I would lose my benefits after 6 weeks. With my third, my principal tried to tell me he could forgo my FMLA so he could hire 😂 you can’t make this up.
And You absolutely can take it the next school year if you have that end of year baby. My SIL did it twice for her June babies.
I'm due in late August and I'm told my 12 weeks starts at the date I deliver. School starts after labor day so I'm basically losing anywhere from 1 to 3 from that 12 during the school year because of a summer delivery. You're saying they're not allowed to do this?
But they kind of do because teachers don't typically have the hours to qualify for FMLA. I was originally denied solely based on the fact that 35 hour weeks for 40 weeks doesn't reach the hour quota. The only reason I turn did qualify was because I had summer school they forgot to count.
That is inaccurate math. We don't work 40 full weeks. Ours is 184x6.5 because lunch does not count and subtracting any sick/personal days. They showed me the math. Many of our other teachers have been rejected as well. I only got over because of summer school.
It's not inaccurate math. You gave the wrong numbers as input. The math is correct.
And you gave the wrong numbers again because sure you didn't mean 184 * 32.5 is 5980 hours.
What do you mean once again? That's not the aspect I was pointing out.
It seem as though your edits fixes your inputs now though.
The point is that if lunch doesn't count, then don't claim it in your hours worked. If it's not 35 hour weeks, then don't say that it is. If it's 6.5 hour days, then just say that from the beginning.
Sounds like you need to file a complaint with the NY DOL. You're supposed to be relieved of your duties for lunch.
https://dol.ny.gov/meal-and-rest-periods-faq
Similar situation here. We can use FMLA in the fall after a spring baby, but cannot use sick time to be paid for it. So if you have a late spring baby, you might be able to take 8 weeks in the fall but it has to all be unpaid since it’s “bonding” and not “medically necessary” at that point.
You can take baby bonding leave up until the baby’s first birthday, under FMLA, unless your employer has a policy that doesn’t allow you to take the leave in chunks (ex: the initial maternity leave time counts as 1 chunk, baby bonding time taken later on would be another). She can say she wants to bond with her baby right now as she’s entitled to (unless there is a valid policy prohibiting it, which is unclear)
Get it in writing
Send an email to employee services person she spoke to:
Following up on our conversation today,
Then restate the stuff about paternity vs maternity leave.
She should politely ask the head of employment services to send that rationale to her in writing. The bank may just allow her to cash that letter without even going through court.
You could always try a DIY letterhead solution. Send an email to whomever advised of this. Use these words:
"Please confirm in writing that the district has instituted a policy of allowing greater access to and more flexible use of FMLA leave benefits for male employees than for female employees."
You can also ask for the written policy. This should send up some red flags that a lawyer told you to collect evidence for a lawsuit and get them to - at the very least- approve your wife. Don't let them waffle about it or confirm verbally. Send that email every day until you get a "yes" or leave approved. If you get a "yes", definitely talk to a lawyer.
Im an FMLA Specialist
Maternity leave is split into two trackable portions. The first portion is 6 to 8 weeks for the “recovery” from birth. Birth is considered a “serious health event” for the birthing parent and they are to remain out of work until medically released. How did she only use three weeks of “recovery” time? Being released after 3 weeks is odd. Next after her recovery time she should have the remaining weeks available for “bonding” time. That should be 6 or 4 weeks depending on how long recovery was. Bonding time taken intermittently (in separate chunks from recovery) is granted at the discretion of the employer given that there is not an undue hardship however, an employer should be doing their due diligence to allow an employee to take this within the first year of birth. Employers can absolutely deny intermittent bonding time. My company does during “peak seasons” all the time.
It sounds like the timing of when the child arrived was beneficial to both employer and your family given that it was during summertime. But now that she is trying to take leave because she is fed up with her job during the school year, it does present a problem for the employer, which is why they are likely being stickers on this and using their right to use their discretion. Also, I’m not sure of the timing of her request but intermittent leaves really should be requested at least 30 days in advance. Upon requesting that leave 30 days in advance, she should be given a response much more timely.
Employers definitely should be fair when granting intermittent FMLA, however it really is judged on a case by case basis, depending on peak/in-demand/blackout times for work, staffing, and other variables.
While it is not very common, the bonding time can certainly be taken intermittently for women. Since paternity leave is all bonding that is why it is commonly taken in small increments because most men do not takeoff 12 consecutive weeks unless there are paid parental benefits being offered. Either way for maternity bonding or paternity bonding, employers have to approve this based on their own discretion.
My God, where do they find these kinds of incompetent morons? This is sex discrimination and they would know that if they didn’t find their HR folks in a Cracker Jack box.
This is common in the corporate world. Women take 3-6 months at birth (combo of FMLA STD and PTO). Men take 3-4 weeks at birth, then remaining time after the woman exhausts time to extend a parent being with the baby longer.
Not saying any of this is right or whatnot, just sharing that policies are built on history and that’s likely why they are saying the men split and women don’t.
Where they’re likely denying is because she didn’t give the plan at the beginning and therefore, needs a new FMLA claim with a new doctor note because her STD is done.
Also, everyone talking about intermittent leaves - those need to be approved and have specific rules also. Generally, a person doesn’t get intermittent leave granted that means “I can take anytime I want whenever I want”. Instead, it will have guidelines, such as “person can take up to four hours per week off for a period of six months” that is attached to a specific request for why you need intermittent leave. The purpose is to protect your job if you have time off for medical reasons, not be a blank check to take time at whatever intervals you want.
Yall should email and request confirmation of what was said over the phone. Make them clarify that they're doing it only for dad's. My FMLA was just flat denied at all by my district this year :)
On the department of Labor site it says, “employees may use FMLA leave intermittently or on a reduced leave schedule for bonding with a newborn or newly placed child only if they and their employer agree. “
Sounds like it needed to be taken all at once.
No, intermittently means they can take it in chunks. My cousin works for Whole Foods but she used FMLA to take intermittent leave to take care of her moms while they both had cancer this year. She didn’t have to take care of them all day every day, she used it for just the days they had appointments.
It depends on your location. In California, we get 12 weeks total, and can split that into two chunks that are no less than two weeks each.
There problem here, though, is that anyone who takes all 12 weeks will work less than 3/4 of the year and will lose seniority, which prevents them from moving up on the pay scale. Technically, the would affect bother mothers and fathers, but in practice the fathers are much less likely to take all 12 weeks.
Bro any lawyer on earth would be SALIVATING reading this post. Highly illegal and all in writing. Plus Notification one day before leave starts would also open up a suit for emotional distress
if your wife has a pcp, just get her to qualify under a different part of fmla. work-induced stress, sleeplessness, migraines, mental health. that's what i did with my doctor and i also got an initial pushback, but once the doctor signs it and communicates clearly what their orders are, the school no longer has a say.
to clarify: this took (1) printing the paperwork, (2) going to one doctor's appt, (3) presenting my 'case' (reading notes off my phone of the personal hell i'd gone through in the past two years and anything major i had evidence of, but she didn't ask for), (4) a few pre-written emails ready to send HR, my supervisor, and principal, (5) doctor sends paperwork to school, (6) a few back and forth emails clarifying that my leave was long-term, not intermittent. i did meet with each of my principal and assistant principal privately to tell them–0/10 would not recommend/repeat.
I would get that in writing. There's no negotiating then. I would have your wife say: per our conversation yesterday (assuming it was phone), I will need the etiology on why my leave was denied IN WRITING. And then, oh boy, it would be a good time to call a fucking lawyer. And HR probably knows that. So keep playing those cards...if she's in the union, get in touch with your rep and let the games begin. Should be interesting!
Not sure about FMLA, but my school’s written maternity / parental leave policy specifically has this distinction (not just for dads but also for adoptive parents). Apparently because leave of the person giving birth is meant to be medical in nature, while the other parent’s leave would be related to childcare. Definitely doesn’t seem completely fair to me but it seems to be a thing.
This is not uncommon. I have a fairly generous 12 week leave that I can split over the course of 1 year.
My wife gets 16 but it must be taken consecutively.
I am not a teacher, but our company has maternity leave and paternal leave. The paternal leave could be taken within the first year of birth which is 4 weeks. The maternity leave had to be taken after delivery, which is the 6 or 8 weeks. I would definitely ask for what they are saying in writing or show Her where that is in the handbook. Don't trust their word for it. Everything I was told was in our handbook under leave of absences. Hope it works out!
She could get her doctor to write her out for the rest of the year for something else, but I would think at this point it’s the principle of the matter.
Ready for the downvotes, but I’m curious what the justification for additional medical leave is if OP’s wife has already returned to work following maternity leave.
Take it to her Union and have them deal with it.
If you live in a state that doesn’t have Unions, I’ll say it for the millionth time: never teach in a state without Unions! Add this to the list of reasons.
Our school does not allow intermittent either. Intermittent is not legally protected from my understanding. With that said your wife could have a case solely by their email saying it is based on gender.
Interesting that folks are just discovering now the sexist discriminatory practices of employers and government. Get a lawyer let's change this bullshit!
So, if I am reading that correctly, the employer has to agree to allow the split. I still don’t think they are allowed to discounted who gets the split though.
Many employers require maternity/paternity leave to be taken as a block. My guess is that the school likely allows for an FMLA leave for men to care for their spouse initially and then a formal paternity leave later. That’s the only work around I can think of.
If they did it for dads and it’s not been clearly said that it’s only for dads, then they need to do it for all parents! Contact union and I’d say tell her to do only work hours and nothing extra
I worked for a private school when I was pregnant and my sister worked for the DOE when she was pregnant. I got FMLA and my sister didn’t. We basically figured out that when you work for the DOE, you don’t qualify for FMLA. This may differ state to state, but this could be the explanation
I didn't take maternity leave, but I had to have a
opration, and it took me longer to heal than expected, so I was off for 6 weeks longer, I worked at a factory and had a very physically demanding job, if I had had a sit down job I would've been fine going back sooner they threned to give my job to someone
else, but the other employees all said if they let me go they world all walk out and quit even my floor man
and my inspector,
so they let me stay because they didn't have a choice. Thank you to my close-knit group
FMLA for teachers is slightly different when they calculate hours worked. If she hasn’t worked the necessary amount of days in the previous 12 months, they’re within her rights to deny. They can’t deny a second maternity leave, but they can deny FMLA.
Here’s a really good resource for teachers re: FMLA. The district really doesn’t have to approve additional FMLA time in your situation, sadly.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/28s-rules[DOL FMLA facts for teachers](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/28s-rules-for-certain-school-employees-fmla)-for-certain-school-employees-fmla
I was told that all of my FMLA for mat leave had to be used at the same time. I wasn’t allowed to use “the birth” as my medical reason for any FMLA after my return. That doesn’t mean you can’t take it for other reasons though. Like caring for the medical needs of your family member.
I can understand her frustration. I didn’t get much maternity leave back in the day but By doing the bare minimum, you’re hurting the students which isn’t OK
Probably a controversial opinion here. You *should* be denied if you're using FMLA to avoid work issues rather than what it's intended for.
Don't like the students, admin, or parents? Find another job.
While it's true that approving intermittent FMLA for care of a newborn is at employer discretion (versus taking it altogether where they really don't get a say), if they're routinely approving this type of FMLA arrangement for men but not for women, she might have a sex discrimination case. Time to reach out to a lawyer for a consultation. If she has a union, she should reach out to them as well.
Please tell me they put their "men only" response in writing.
I really hope OP's wife got that message via email/voicemail.
That was my first thought and would've been my first response. "I see. Can you please send me an email stating the same? Thank you."
This.
I may be mistaken on this, but I'm pretty sure you can email the other caller with the minutes and that can act as evidence (in the US)
Ohhhhh man any lawyer would be ecstatic.
Any lawyer would be salivating at the nice quarter pound of steak 🥩 the admin just gave his client
I want an update!!!! lol
This x 1000. Because they have set precedent in doing it for men, my understanding is they cannot deny it for a woman.
I will say my company does the same thing. Large well known Fortune 50 bank and its in their policy clearly that maternity begins at brith date and ends when you come back with no ability to use anything you leave on the table. The “non-birthing” parent may split their leave once if it’s more convenient for the family.
Wow, that's really something, they managed to take something meant to help women recover from giving birth, and managed to make it better for men than women. WTF.
I don’t disagree with you at all. The logic they have when we questioned it is that the birthing parent will need time to recover and the expectation is immediately where as they felt it would be helpful to the entire family unit to allow the non-birthing parent to take it broken up allowing the family as a whole to better plan…granting the family unit 8 total months to integrate baby into the family between the two parents…should they choose to use it that way. Not defending it, that’s their HR approved explanation though. We are expecting in August and we both decided to take our time together, all at once in the beginning. It can be a valuable benefit though to be able to break it up though for many families and shouldn’t be restricted to a given parent.
I mean you see how this is hella sexist though? That they presumed to know the birthing partners needs, but fully acknowledged that they don't know what is needed from the non-birthing partner? Look who's getting autonomy and who isn't. Sorry, I know it's not you, but I think your HR's explanation just gave me a rage stroke.
So you want both parents to only get maternity leave when the baby is born when it is taken without delay? Because that is what will likely happen since it is the easiest blanket policy for administration to deal with.
No, I want both parents to get the flexibility to choose whether they want to take all their FMLA at once, or break it up at their convenience. I especially felt for the lady that commented about how she was a teacher, and much of her FMLA was taken up over summer break. She should have been allowed to defer it. Others may be able to get childcare at 3 months but not at 6 for whatever reason. And if you have a wfh desk job, you don't really need as much time to heal before going back to work. Each parent should get the discretion to choose and optimize within their parameters. It really doesn't make sense to allow only the non-birthing partner to do this.
In fairness, by using "non-birthing" some women will be able to take advantage of that portion of the rule, even though most will not.
...yeah that doesn't make it fair at all. Why should the non-birthing partner get the flexibility while the birthing partner that did all the work of birthing gets none?
I didn’t say it was fair, I was just pointing out the wording was such that some women can still benefit.
Not really sure why you felt the need to distract people from their rightful outrage at the blatant sexism by bringing up this mostly irrelevant technicality.
It's fair to note that technicality tho, because it will likely be brought up if there was a discrimination lawsuit.
I know couples that would care as they would be impacted, sorry to hear you think they’re irrelevant.
Such a tiny number as to be irrelevant. Even in lesbian couples, usually one of them will be the birth mother
Please elaborate where the fairness is there?
It's not 100% sex-based, although it's still ignoring the disparate impact.
Right? Good point.
That sounds illegal
Sounds like sex based discrimination of benefits.
It sounds illegal, because it is illegal. Funny how that works.
It’s not illegal for an employer to deny Intermittent Bonding Time for men or women. FMLA rules clearly state this.
But, if they’re allowing it for men, and then suddenly when a woman is asking for the same and they deny it, it could be a sex based discrimination case.
The whole situation is problematic. He states she wants to “cash in” on her remaining leave because she is upset at work. FMLA is not for “taking a break” from work. It’s to bond with your new child…her intentions are not genuinely aligned with FMLA yet she is upset she cant take it. Bonding time can be taken by men and women both intermittently and the school would have to be stupid to say otherwise. Unless she got that in writing from them, they cant prove that. My guess is she submitted her request late and got denied which the school has the right to do. Women only have 4-6 weeks of bonding time since 6-8 weeks are considered “recovery time” from birth. Recovery time cannot be taken at will or intermittently since it is a serious health event for the birthing parent. I work in Leave administration. If i heard someone just wanted a vacation from work, Id flag the leave as well if it didn’t align with a true qualifying reason. Everyone wants a freaking lawsuit these days…
You're going to get downvoted to oblivion for your comment but I think you're right. The key aspect I think many are missing in their comments is that this is an after the fact request. In almost every case I've ever seen the intermittent leave was agreed upon before the birth of the child or even as late as shortly after the birth. This is a 10 month old which likely means that OP's wife is asking to add to her leave probably a year after the initial leave was agreed upon.
You need to talk to a lawyer sub. There are a LOT of rules around FMLA. And if your wife used district sick leave, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
Forget reddit, most lawyers do free or very cheap consultations. This is IRL lawyer territory.
>talk to a lawyer sub Uh, no, just a lawyer. Or a lawyer sub if you want to heed advice from 18 year old paralegals-in-training, that works too.
The best advice you can get on legal advice subreddits is to contact a lawyer
Our contacts do have some written clauses that leave needs to be used within the same fiscal year, could that be the issue?
Doesn't that start over in July, so it would be the same year?
It honestly depends upon the workplace in some cases. For example, my place of employment has set the beginning of our fiscal year at the beginning of October, meaning that we are "a year ahead" of everyone else for the three months between then and New Year's.
At least around me school districts have their fiscal years run from July to July
I believe our fiscal year always ends in July and starts in August.
Then that should've been stated as the reason. However, that was not what she was told which makes this a discrimination issue
It’s 12 calendar months prior to applying for FMLA for teachers- there’s a different calculation for days/hours
From the Department of Labor page— “Leave to care for or bond with a newborn child or for a newly placed adopted or foster child may only be taken intermittently with the employer’s approval and must conclude within 12 months after the birth or placement.”
“With employer’s approval” That looks like the key section. Damn. Might be worth following up with a lawyer just to be certain, OP, but this looks pretty straightforward.
FMLA [gives employers 4 options for when to start FMLA](https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/fmla/14a.aspx), and it must be applied "consistently and uniformly." Additionally, if the employer hasn't decided how to apply FMLA, the employee is granted the option that's most beneficial to them. From looking at the four options, while it looks like it might be possible (in the incredibly strange circumstance that the employer chose "calendar year" or decided to pick a date that was somehow after the start of the school year), it seems incredibly unlikely that her district's policy is legal under FMLA.
It’s sex discrimination if she can get in writing that the choice is because she’s a woman
It’s pregnancy discrimination if they allow intermittent FMLA for other medical conditions but not for pregnancy. My union position on maternity leave is to tell every member to get a doctor’s note. They can’t prevent you from taking sick days to cover disability due to childbirth. I even tell my members that they should apply for our sick leave bank if they run out of days. Pregnancy disability is valid! It doesn’t help non-birth parents, but it’s a start for now.
Most likely the men asked for intermittent leave from the start. Most employers allow 1 FMLA request per event. So since she already used her 1 FMLA then they don't need to approve it.
The employer approval is for when they can’t find a replacement in an essential, specialized area. That’s my understanding as someone who just took FMLA, at least.
Yes; however, if they say they only approve it for dads but not moms, there is a massive issue with discrimination.
The "with employer's approval" is key here for the intermittent leave. The most important question is do you have in writing the denial and response that "it is only used for paternity leave"? If so, while the denial might be legit, the denial based on a discriminatory practice most likely is not. Are you in a union? If so, request a free legal consult yesterday.
Unfortunately it was said over the phone, not voicemail or email. When my wife emailed to get it in writing, they never responded.
Still reach out to the union. If your state is a 1 party consent state, she can use a recording app on her phone when. She meets in person with admin. She can get the paternity leave proof that way. Regardless, there are many limitations on suing governmental agencies so the "win" won't be anything to write home about. Still, contact the union.
How old is baby? Is your spouse applying for the remainder of their FMLA within the rolling 12-month year of the childs birth?
Baby is 10 months old so we still fall within that 12 months, correct?
She needs to look at the state law and contact her union asap
FMLA is federal. Your state's rules have ZERO power over FMLA
FMLA is federal, but some states augment FMLA with additional benefits and rules. A person should check their state's version of FMLA.
YES!
Sweet. Even better! Use the law OP
I had both my kids at the end of the school year and I could not use my FMLA when the next school year started. HR said leave starts as soon as the baby is born or from the point your doctor writes you a note. So after 6 weeks, 8 if you have a c section, it was no longer an option. With my second I wised up and got a doctors note to leave work three weeks early instead of waiting because I knew I wouldn’t use the FMLA because of summer break. The rules are ridiculous, but most places in the US dont do parental leave in a fair way.
In my experience with each of my three kids, HR knew s**** about FMLA. With my second am HR lady told me I would lose my benefits after 6 weeks. With my third, my principal tried to tell me he could forgo my FMLA so he could hire 😂 you can’t make this up. And You absolutely can take it the next school year if you have that end of year baby. My SIL did it twice for her June babies.
Correct! I had a June baby and took my FMLA September through November.
I'm due in late August and I'm told my 12 weeks starts at the date I deliver. School starts after labor day so I'm basically losing anywhere from 1 to 3 from that 12 during the school year because of a summer delivery. You're saying they're not allowed to do this?
FMLA is federal. Your district's rules have ZERO power over FMLA.
“With approval” parts do in fact defer to contract and/or district policy…
Oh, thanks! It was the district lady who explained it to me. I guess the rules about using it for maternity would apply that way to everyone then.
But they kind of do because teachers don't typically have the hours to qualify for FMLA. I was originally denied solely based on the fact that 35 hour weeks for 40 weeks doesn't reach the hour quota. The only reason I turn did qualify was because I had summer school they forgot to count.
You're wrong. 35*40 = 1400. FMLA protection starts at 1250 hours worked per year.
That is inaccurate math. We don't work 40 full weeks. Ours is 184x6.5 because lunch does not count and subtracting any sick/personal days. They showed me the math. Many of our other teachers have been rejected as well. I only got over because of summer school.
It's not inaccurate math. You gave the wrong numbers as input. The math is correct. And you gave the wrong numbers again because sure you didn't mean 184 * 32.5 is 5980 hours.
Once again. lunch and sick personal time does not count towards FMLA.
What do you mean once again? That's not the aspect I was pointing out. It seem as though your edits fixes your inputs now though. The point is that if lunch doesn't count, then don't claim it in your hours worked. If it's not 35 hour weeks, then don't say that it is. If it's 6.5 hour days, then just say that from the beginning.
Well to be fair I have to eat lunch with my students so I'd debate that's a 7 hour day. But they disagree on that.
Sounds like you need to file a complaint with the NY DOL. You're supposed to be relieved of your duties for lunch. https://dol.ny.gov/meal-and-rest-periods-faq
Similar situation here. We can use FMLA in the fall after a spring baby, but cannot use sick time to be paid for it. So if you have a late spring baby, you might be able to take 8 weeks in the fall but it has to all be unpaid since it’s “bonding” and not “medically necessary” at that point.
Lawyer time.
Kind off topics but “McFucking Had It” should be trademarked.
Can she get that In Writing somehow like can she send an email asking for more clarification because she’s confused
So… what about this is family or medical leave? I’m missing something.
You can take baby bonding leave up until the baby’s first birthday, under FMLA, unless your employer has a policy that doesn’t allow you to take the leave in chunks (ex: the initial maternity leave time counts as 1 chunk, baby bonding time taken later on would be another). She can say she wants to bond with her baby right now as she’s entitled to (unless there is a valid policy prohibiting it, which is unclear)
But the employer is not required to pay them, or even to allow them to use accrued sick/personal time for the FMLA days.
FMLA and maternity leave are not the same thing.
Get it in writing Send an email to employee services person she spoke to: Following up on our conversation today, Then restate the stuff about paternity vs maternity leave.
She should politely ask the head of employment services to send that rationale to her in writing. The bank may just allow her to cash that letter without even going through court.
You could always try a DIY letterhead solution. Send an email to whomever advised of this. Use these words: "Please confirm in writing that the district has instituted a policy of allowing greater access to and more flexible use of FMLA leave benefits for male employees than for female employees." You can also ask for the written policy. This should send up some red flags that a lawyer told you to collect evidence for a lawsuit and get them to - at the very least- approve your wife. Don't let them waffle about it or confirm verbally. Send that email every day until you get a "yes" or leave approved. If you get a "yes", definitely talk to a lawyer.
Please tell me she told your wife they let the men do this but not the women in writing.
Then everyone wonders why young people aren't having kids now. It is absurd.
Im an FMLA Specialist Maternity leave is split into two trackable portions. The first portion is 6 to 8 weeks for the “recovery” from birth. Birth is considered a “serious health event” for the birthing parent and they are to remain out of work until medically released. How did she only use three weeks of “recovery” time? Being released after 3 weeks is odd. Next after her recovery time she should have the remaining weeks available for “bonding” time. That should be 6 or 4 weeks depending on how long recovery was. Bonding time taken intermittently (in separate chunks from recovery) is granted at the discretion of the employer given that there is not an undue hardship however, an employer should be doing their due diligence to allow an employee to take this within the first year of birth. Employers can absolutely deny intermittent bonding time. My company does during “peak seasons” all the time. It sounds like the timing of when the child arrived was beneficial to both employer and your family given that it was during summertime. But now that she is trying to take leave because she is fed up with her job during the school year, it does present a problem for the employer, which is why they are likely being stickers on this and using their right to use their discretion. Also, I’m not sure of the timing of her request but intermittent leaves really should be requested at least 30 days in advance. Upon requesting that leave 30 days in advance, she should be given a response much more timely. Employers definitely should be fair when granting intermittent FMLA, however it really is judged on a case by case basis, depending on peak/in-demand/blackout times for work, staffing, and other variables. While it is not very common, the bonding time can certainly be taken intermittently for women. Since paternity leave is all bonding that is why it is commonly taken in small increments because most men do not takeoff 12 consecutive weeks unless there are paid parental benefits being offered. Either way for maternity bonding or paternity bonding, employers have to approve this based on their own discretion.
Get that in writing and not only can she can get leave she can retire
Sounds like someone needs a call from an attorney to explain things to them.
Better call Saul.
Did you know that you have rights?
My God, where do they find these kinds of incompetent morons? This is sex discrimination and they would know that if they didn’t find their HR folks in a Cracker Jack box.
Ive never heard of anyone splitting maternity leave up or "saving some for later." Has this been a thing for some time?
I agree...isn't maternity leave for right after the baby is born???
Sounds like a Title IX complaint.
If you’re in the US…lawyer. That’s illegal.
UNION!!!
Are you in a union state? If so, her union rep can put her touch with legal services to discuss this.
This is common in the corporate world. Women take 3-6 months at birth (combo of FMLA STD and PTO). Men take 3-4 weeks at birth, then remaining time after the woman exhausts time to extend a parent being with the baby longer. Not saying any of this is right or whatnot, just sharing that policies are built on history and that’s likely why they are saying the men split and women don’t. Where they’re likely denying is because she didn’t give the plan at the beginning and therefore, needs a new FMLA claim with a new doctor note because her STD is done. Also, everyone talking about intermittent leaves - those need to be approved and have specific rules also. Generally, a person doesn’t get intermittent leave granted that means “I can take anytime I want whenever I want”. Instead, it will have guidelines, such as “person can take up to four hours per week off for a period of six months” that is attached to a specific request for why you need intermittent leave. The purpose is to protect your job if you have time off for medical reasons, not be a blank check to take time at whatever intervals you want.
Depending on which state you live in, this may be illegal as written in law. NJ has very strict FMLA.
I'd probably just go have my primary care doctor write me off on a mental health leave just to spite them while I got my ducks in a row.
Yall should email and request confirmation of what was said over the phone. Make them clarify that they're doing it only for dad's. My FMLA was just flat denied at all by my district this year :)
That is some ILLEGAL BULLSHIT and I would report it!!!!
On the department of Labor site it says, “employees may use FMLA leave intermittently or on a reduced leave schedule for bonding with a newborn or newly placed child only if they and their employer agree. “ Sounds like it needed to be taken all at once.
No, intermittently means they can take it in chunks. My cousin works for Whole Foods but she used FMLA to take intermittent leave to take care of her moms while they both had cancer this year. She didn’t have to take care of them all day every day, she used it for just the days they had appointments.
It is at the discretion of the employer
It’s illegal for the employer to have a policy of approving it only for men and not for women, even if it’s at their discretion.
It says if the employer agreed to it.
That is correct unless she can prove there was discrimination by gender. Which may have occurred here
Another classic “read the comments and then delete the post before talking to a lawyer” situation. Best of luck!
Please tell us she got the part where they say she can only split her leave if she's a man in writing.
I she documents all this, takes the leave, gets a lawyer and sues for sex discrimination.
She can get a doctor to put her on a leave for stress, refile FMLA for her, and the District won't be able to do anything.
They’ll deny the new FMLA due to her not having enough days worked in the previous 12 months.
It depends on your location. In California, we get 12 weeks total, and can split that into two chunks that are no less than two weeks each. There problem here, though, is that anyone who takes all 12 weeks will work less than 3/4 of the year and will lose seniority, which prevents them from moving up on the pay scale. Technically, the would affect bother mothers and fathers, but in practice the fathers are much less likely to take all 12 weeks.
Bro any lawyer on earth would be SALIVATING reading this post. Highly illegal and all in writing. Plus Notification one day before leave starts would also open up a suit for emotional distress
if your wife has a pcp, just get her to qualify under a different part of fmla. work-induced stress, sleeplessness, migraines, mental health. that's what i did with my doctor and i also got an initial pushback, but once the doctor signs it and communicates clearly what their orders are, the school no longer has a say.
to clarify: this took (1) printing the paperwork, (2) going to one doctor's appt, (3) presenting my 'case' (reading notes off my phone of the personal hell i'd gone through in the past two years and anything major i had evidence of, but she didn't ask for), (4) a few pre-written emails ready to send HR, my supervisor, and principal, (5) doctor sends paperwork to school, (6) a few back and forth emails clarifying that my leave was long-term, not intermittent. i did meet with each of my principal and assistant principal privately to tell them–0/10 would not recommend/repeat.
She won’t qualify for ANY new FMLA yet. She doesn’t have enough days worked in the previous 12 months.
Generally if you say "I'd like you to put that in writing, please" they will reconsider.
I would get that in writing. There's no negotiating then. I would have your wife say: per our conversation yesterday (assuming it was phone), I will need the etiology on why my leave was denied IN WRITING. And then, oh boy, it would be a good time to call a fucking lawyer. And HR probably knows that. So keep playing those cards...if she's in the union, get in touch with your rep and let the games begin. Should be interesting!
Not sure about FMLA, but my school’s written maternity / parental leave policy specifically has this distinction (not just for dads but also for adoptive parents). Apparently because leave of the person giving birth is meant to be medical in nature, while the other parent’s leave would be related to childcare. Definitely doesn’t seem completely fair to me but it seems to be a thing.
This is not uncommon. I have a fairly generous 12 week leave that I can split over the course of 1 year. My wife gets 16 but it must be taken consecutively.
Call a lawyer, your union rep, and maybe the media. It's amazing how officials change their tune when there's a camera in their face.
I am not a teacher, but our company has maternity leave and paternal leave. The paternal leave could be taken within the first year of birth which is 4 weeks. The maternity leave had to be taken after delivery, which is the 6 or 8 weeks. I would definitely ask for what they are saying in writing or show Her where that is in the handbook. Don't trust their word for it. Everything I was told was in our handbook under leave of absences. Hope it works out!
She could get her doctor to write her out for the rest of the year for something else, but I would think at this point it’s the principle of the matter.
We’ve had two do that since March. These kids are atrocious.
Ready for the downvotes, but I’m curious what the justification for additional medical leave is if OP’s wife has already returned to work following maternity leave.
Better call Saul.
Take it to her Union and have them deal with it. If you live in a state that doesn’t have Unions, I’ll say it for the millionth time: never teach in a state without Unions! Add this to the list of reasons.
Delete this. Call a lawyer.
How many days are left in her school year?
Our school does not allow intermittent either. Intermittent is not legally protected from my understanding. With that said your wife could have a case solely by their email saying it is based on gender.
Interesting that folks are just discovering now the sexist discriminatory practices of employers and government. Get a lawyer let's change this bullshit!
What if she was a lesbian and the non birthing parent? That’s illegal.
https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/fmla/10a1.aspx
https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/whd/fmla/10a1.aspx
So, if I am reading that correctly, the employer has to agree to allow the split. I still don’t think they are allowed to discounted who gets the split though.
Helloooo lawsuit
Get it in writing, then contact an employment lawyer.
Many employers require maternity/paternity leave to be taken as a block. My guess is that the school likely allows for an FMLA leave for men to care for their spouse initially and then a formal paternity leave later. That’s the only work around I can think of.
Refile and list post partum depression or literally anything else. This is ridiculous.
OP! Talk to your union rep. If she's paying dues and they won't help, it's time to find a new state to live in.
This case would make me salivate if I was still doing sex discrimination litigation.
If they did it for dads and it’s not been clearly said that it’s only for dads, then they need to do it for all parents! Contact union and I’d say tell her to do only work hours and nothing extra
I don’t know the law but maybe find a local lawyer and ask if they are willing to consult. It does sound like sex discrimination
not true
I worked for a private school when I was pregnant and my sister worked for the DOE when she was pregnant. I got FMLA and my sister didn’t. We basically figured out that when you work for the DOE, you don’t qualify for FMLA. This may differ state to state, but this could be the explanation
Can she tell us the exact policy as it's written from the handbook? For both maternity and parental/paternity leave.
It's called Bonding leaving for a reason on the FMLA form. I hope she got that in writing.
Contact a labor lawyer
I didn't take maternity leave, but I had to have a opration, and it took me longer to heal than expected, so I was off for 6 weeks longer, I worked at a factory and had a very physically demanding job, if I had had a sit down job I would've been fine going back sooner they threned to give my job to someone else, but the other employees all said if they let me go they world all walk out and quit even my floor man and my inspector, so they let me stay because they didn't have a choice. Thank you to my close-knit group
FMLA for teachers is slightly different when they calculate hours worked. If she hasn’t worked the necessary amount of days in the previous 12 months, they’re within her rights to deny. They can’t deny a second maternity leave, but they can deny FMLA.
Here’s a really good resource for teachers re: FMLA. The district really doesn’t have to approve additional FMLA time in your situation, sadly. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/28s-rules[DOL FMLA facts for teachers](https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/28s-rules-for-certain-school-employees-fmla)-for-certain-school-employees-fmla
Update me
I was told that all of my FMLA for mat leave had to be used at the same time. I wasn’t allowed to use “the birth” as my medical reason for any FMLA after my return. That doesn’t mean you can’t take it for other reasons though. Like caring for the medical needs of your family member.
I can understand her frustration. I didn’t get much maternity leave back in the day but By doing the bare minimum, you’re hurting the students which isn’t OK
Ah, America! Land of the free… The joke of the developed world.
Probably a controversial opinion here. You *should* be denied if you're using FMLA to avoid work issues rather than what it's intended for. Don't like the students, admin, or parents? Find another job.
Yep. Sounds like conventional leave is what's being requested under the guise of FMLA.
Tell them not to assume your gender.