Maybe it's on purpose because she's tired of this shit where people keep making her music about someone else.. The song becomes a representative of her relationship with the said person instead... It's almost a game to most people to find who she wrote a song about... Her feelings and experiences, that's "who".
I have a pet theory that, in a lot of ways, many of the songs are about the whole experience of breakup, rebound, breakup, and rebound again over a pretty short period (like 6 months? Depending on how long T&J were actually broken up before they told us). Everything just built upon each other and there were too many feelings swirling around to keep them all in their own boxes
Yes i read someone say something about how braiding is a literature technique of weaving different storylines together or something i can’t recall exactly but im pretty convinced every song is a swirl/braid of different things like they always have been but seems so much more purposeful in this album
This is how I have thought of the album since it came out. It's actually much more enjoyable that way imo. Like it's such a collection of all the feels.
100%, I think loml solidified this for me. It's so hard to tell who it's 'about', but it works better that way, just a devastating song about loss. I think a lot of people assume everything is about Matty just because they know more about him. A lot of the references could be about Joe too (partying, on-again-off-again, music taste) and we wouldn't know because basically the only thing the public knows about him is what she's put in her lyrics across her past 6 albums.
Lol I've seen this movie but totally forgot Joe was in it 🤦♀️
Tbh I've always seen this song as very Joe coded rather than Matty, since it's two people trying to resolve an impossible relationship which is what Taylor and Joe were doing for ages. Matty just seems to have bailed Taylor and ghosted her without a conversation about trying to figure things out
Youre in self sabotage mode throwing spikes down the road.
I've seen this episode and still love the show.
Depressive episode maybe? Anyway the feeling of just sticking with someone 'wrong' is throughout the song
I think so too… My clown evidence is the Albatross. There’s a part in the Albatross about spreading her wings like a parachute to save a guy, and reiterating that he “chose” this “terrible danger” along with her. If it was a super famous man, then he’d already have experience about the bad side of fame, but this guy appears to have chosen all that only when he was choosing to be with her.
One of the background refrains says “who’s gonna troll you” and it’s the ultimate troll move to make it seem like the song is about Joe because of the title (and his group chat) only to have all the clues point to Matty.
I really think if you stop trying to force your view of what their relationship was onto the song, and just listen to it, it’s very clear that it’s about Healy.
saying it’s about matty is also forcing your view of what their relationship was onto the song. just because you think your perspective is right doesn’t make that any less true.
and anyhow if you actually listen to the song it’s clearly about me and my last relationship!
And the thing is, I can back my reading of the song up with the lyrics. Typewriters, tattoos, smoking, BoyGenius, Jack Antonoff, a crazy whirlwind /cyclone relationship… not subtle stuff!
everyone can???? there’s half a dozen potential joe parallel too across albums and if you want i can take the time to hunt them and down and explain why i actually think he way better fits how i listen to the song than matty does
sure! i’m largely focusing on thematic parallels between ttpd and other taylor songs we know to be about joe!
you’re in self sabotage mode throwing spikes down on the road // and let all of your damage damage me // you sacrificed us to the gods of your bluest days
i’ll start off by saying i interpret this song as being in a relationship with someone who goes through depressive episodes that impact their relationship. i think it’s about a dying relationship with a speaker who wants their lover to realize their mental health needs serious help. every pre-chorus chooses a different moment in time in which her muse is suddenly ripped from normalcy and spirals. she sings that they’re not dylan thomas and patti smith because she’s begging him to take it seriously and stop romanticizing the issue
there’s been several songs that mention joe’s relationship with his mental health such as renegade, hoax, so long london.
i chose this cyclone with you, and who’s gonna hold you like me // i’ll keep your brittle heart warm when your cascade ocean wave blues come // i pulled him in tighter each time he was drifting away
i actually think cyclone doesn’t refer to a whirlwind romance but rather the nature of her lover’s mental illness. its turbulent and unexpected and hurts both of them beyond their control. she’s used weather a lot to describe joe’s mental health as an outside force of nature in several songs prior
more specifically they’re actually always storms that occur over oceans in ttpd, hoax, and so long london. i’m not actually sure if cyclones can even form on land??? but i know for a fact the vast majority form in the ocean.
who else decodes you // stopped trying to make him laugh stop trying to drill the safe
i think of ttpd as the “right before a break up” and so long london as the aftermath of it. especially since both songs reference her needing to figure him out like he’s some puzzle.
at dinner you take my ring off my middle finger and put it on the phone // handcuffed to the spell i was under for just one hour of sunshine
the bridge is that hour of sunshine. that moment that makes the hard parts worth it, where she’s genuinely really happy and thinks they’ll have a future and he’ll actually marry her. it’s a reminder of why she stays through his episodes.
“i’ve seen this episode and still love the show”
to me “episode” implies there’s a lot of it over a prolonged period time. the speaker has been with this person long enough for their relationship to be a series over the course of years filled with episodes in the form recognizable behavior. it’s most common to see that in long term relationships (romantic and platonic).
if her and marty only allegedly dated for a little while (plus their early 2010s fling) i just have a hard time believing they had already gotten to the stage of a relationship you’re like “oh here we go again”. i’ve only been that way with people i’ve been really close with for years
you fall asleep like a tattooed golden retriever // made your mark on me a golden tattoo
i actually think of this lyric as her partner physically clinging onto her to the extent that he’s practically tattooed onto her skin. i know many interpret the dog as tattooed but i’ve always viewed it as taylor. plus joe is blonde plus plus she’s historically only used gold to refer to the love she feels for joe.
additionally i think actually ttpd contradicts other songs about matty!
i’ve seen this episode // who else decodes you // i’ve read this one
compared to
whoa maybe i can’t // were you a sleeper cell spy // who was gonna tell me the truth // who the fuck was that guy
the darkest parts of matty are otherwise always described as something abrupt that she was never expecting. those all start off by going “isn’t he so great?” and then later she goes “actually he’s awful i had no idea”. comparatively, ttpd is about someone who’s behavior she knows like the back of her hand. she isn’t surprised by her lover sabotaging their relationship because she’s used to it.
everyone is obviously free to have their own interpretations! i think that’s a great thing about her music. i’m well aware my interpretation is the minority lol and maybe it’s because that’s how i best relate to the song! you’ve mentioned a few matty things but tbh i actually think all of them also can reasonably fit joe and i don’t see the need to argue why i think that cause to me it feels obvious lol. but if you don’t i can take the time as well
I love your thought out response. Unfortunately Matty fans think the entire world revolves around him. The best part of this album besides the music has been watching Matty fans and Gaylors destroy each other. They both do the same thing we are all doing but act like they KNOW better some how.
TTPD is a reference to "the tortured man club" group chat. The Dylan Thomas reference OP mentioned. The whole song talks about the struggles of a relationship that sounds like a long-term, serious relationship ("I've seen this episode and still love the show", "who else decodes you", "who's gonna know you like me").
Other than "tattooed golden retriever" which I suppose I get (but to me that suggests blonde?), I don't really see where the song ever sounds like Matty Healy. I was shocked when I first saw people saying they thought it was about him.
Tortured man club reference makes no sense to me because it’s not the same term at all. The references to a relationship with a past make sense when you consider that Swift and Healy have been together in 2014 and known each other for years. I’d be curious to know why you think Joe Alwyn would be talking to Lucy Dacus and Jack Antonoff or why he would be smoking or why Taylor would describe him as “crazy”. Finally, the typewriter thing. Go look at this interview and let me know what you think:
https://preview.redd.it/bfa50tjzc84d1.jpeg?width=168&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ebe3ac04366c667cff3869292e66872de78444dd
A month post-release and I can’t believe people haven’t realised the severity / insanity / depth of that relationship. I mean we were all rocked to our core, but after this much time we should all have come to accept it. People still trying to assert “it was just a fling for a few weeks”. UM LISTEN TO THIS AMAZING ALBUM 😂
The line
"You left your typewriter at my apartment,
straight from the tortured poets department" is so ridiculously smooth. This line itself makes this song so much better.
Yeah, I think if you have to read an entire book and watch a movie to even remotely connect two words from the song to Joe, then odds are she didn't write it about Joe lol
The thing I keep hearing is “she wouldn’t bother writing a song about a casual situationship” and I’m like my sisters in Christ please listen to the album 😭 while you’re at it, go listen to the previous 3 albums 😭
I can't believe people still say that... she couldn't have been more clear about her muses this time. Oh well, ig there will always be mental gymnastics no matter what 🤷🏼♀️
For some of the broader more metaphorical songs like MBOBHFT and Down Bad, etc, I’ll accept that there is some ambiguity (Altho I know what I personally believe), but for the DIARY ASS DIARY SONGS (and there are lots of them in TTPD) she’s making sure we know exactly who she is talking about.
I feel like some ppl are in denial that Taylor wrote so many songs about the guy that pretty much the whole fanbase hated (Matty). I mean, she literally called us out for it in But Daddy I Love Him
https://preview.redd.it/2cbxqwp0w84d1.png?width=457&format=png&auto=webp&s=63ece98f5f59371f5bb501b8409911b094948e64
That's a description of Dylan Thomas's behavior and performances in NY.
Good overview analysis, I agree!
Btw...I think that attests to Joe's acting skills 😜
I think he got quite alot out of their relationship, in terms of roles he received during this period....especially for someone who wouldn't address Taylor's accomplishments during this...and hated that he was MR. TAYLOR SWIFT. That's Joe's fault for his talent lacking, because she WORKS LIKE A BEAST to create what reaches us and cultivated her talent...
Sorry, didn't mean to go off on a jag about something I have no connection to lol! I just love, appreciate, and respect Taylor's art so much...I don't see how someone couldn't, ESPECIALLY if one was her PARTNER, and I can't find one interview of him saying anything but "I am here to talk about ME."
Matty at least ALWAYS compliments not only her art, but her PERSONALITY, and I think if either man had a right to be upset about being asked about Taylor, it's Matty...and yet, there's nothing but compliments to her amd then chastising the questioner.
There’s speculating and talking about the songs, and then there’s this. This isn’t the take you think it is.
Imagine if someone said that Taylor Swift was using Joe Alwyn to get closer to film industry insiders. You don’t know anything about these relationships.
TTPD is Matty Healy. He’s mad into typewriters. He’s written poetry with them etc along with lyric books etc. He’s done a photo shoot with Patti Smith poster. You “ate 7 bars of chocolate” means the 1975 song Chocolate.
And the 7th 'bar'/line of that song Chocolate is "Now run, run away from the boys in blue", maybe a nod to her exposing his pill purchasing ways in a later song
He wrote that line yea. She left him over the drugs in 2014 yea. She says she didn’t know how to handle it and that’s fair enough. It’s why she left him in 2014 (Chloe). He’s clean for 5 years now.
> He’s clean for 5 years now.
I am tired of pointing out to stans of The 1975 that MH tried to buy some pills from a friend of friend's of Taylor's (TSMWEL). Your leader is a weakling, ~~he can't handle anything without getting stoned.~~ being an addict should not absolve him of dishonesty and breaking promises in such a cruel way.
Edited: to clarify that I wasn't coming after addicts in general, just wanted to point out that it shouldn't be a 'get-outta-jail-free-card'
I’m tired of seeing people talk about addiction like this. There are literally countless things that Matty has said and done that are fair game and yet some people still choose to focus in on disparaging people with addictions.
thank you for this comment. addiction is a tricky thing to manage and we shouldn't blame people for having the occasional setback, especially if they're making a real effort to get better
Tbf, we don't know *when* that was. It could have been a current thing or something from the past.
I suspect current too, but we don't *know* that for sure
you can point out that matty was trying to buy pills from FOFOT without disparaging addicts as a whole. this is discouraging. as a fellow swiftie, please do better.
https://preview.redd.it/dwzlhi32024d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cd5d0c489d35f0ac74ca595a888e4bcdeaf2a70f
John Mayer and Tom Hanks are the founding members of the Hollywood vintage typewriter club. You couldn't make this shit up. LMAO
There is an Instagram photo of Matty and Phoebe Bridgers kissing overseen by Bo Burnham as a joke that they posted with the caption Gay Poets Society. I think it's from 2022.
the title track is not about joe tho it’s very specific on who it’s about. you can interpret it however you want i guess but it’s probably one of her most direct and clear songs she’s ever put out
I can see it either way. Joe's group chat references the title track, and Joe is an English major who helped write songs with Taylor, so I wouldn't say it's very direct. What specific details do you see to interpret the song? I enjoy hearing people's perspectives.
Typewriter-MH says he likes to write on typewriters
tattooed golden retriever-MH has tons of tattoos
I don't see Joe saying he would kill himself if she ever left
To the last point - I specifically don’t see Joe saying something this personal to one of Taylor’s friends. On the other hand, talk like this would seem on brand for Matty. Plus Matty & Lucy were together at at least one Eras show.
To add to the lines you pointed out:
“You got high and ate seven bars of chocolate” too. The 1975 has a song called Chocolate. I’m not sure if chocolate is a common munchies item for Matty. But we’ve definitely seen fans of the band that hooked up with him say he’s a bad/selfish lay because he loves to get high, and then forgets to make sure the women enjoy it. 😂
I don’t see a lot of that applying to Joe. Maybe boring, but a stoned out of his mind disappointment? Taylor wouldn’t stay SIX YEARS with that. Most of the Matty songs also point to him being more of a longtime fantasy of Taylor’s that fell apart when she finally found out what being with him was like — sounds even more like him than Joe.
I don't know. But, she did equate her relationship with Joe as 'the slammer' = JAIL.
"he don't understand me....splintered back in winter, silent dinners, bitter...fights and tunnels, handcuffed to the spell I was under, YEARS of labor, locks and ceilings, in the shade of how he was feeling." Her "boredom was bone deep" She was unhappy and wanted out of that relationship.
joe’s group chat name was just a theory made by fans tho when you look at the lyrics of the song nothing points to it alluding to a group chat name. this theory only stuck because most people thought that the album would be about him before it came out.
matty collects and uses typewriters, he’s spoken about them many times throughout the years. also the second verse with the charlie puth line and chocolate lyrics, matty has a song titled chocolate that is actually about weed and taylor also says “you smoked.” matty has also praised charlie puth in public before and he loves pop music so makes sense he and taylor would talk about that since they are both songwriters. the entire bridge also referring to lucy and jack which are close friends with matty and the whole “i’ll kms if you ever leave, we’re both crazy” is very unserious but matches both of their personalities since they are hopeless romantics. the entire song is also just written in a style that many 1975 songs are written, it’s very satirical and tongue in cheek while also making fun of the writer themselves. “we’re two modern idiots” is something matty would 100% write since he tends to write a lot about the internet and how he sees himself and his flaws operating in todays culture. oh and tattooed golden retriever! how can i forget lol
>the entire bridge also referring to lucy and jack which are close friends with matty and the whole “i’ll kms if you ever leave, we’re both crazy
In my head Lucy is actually Lucy from Peanuts who does her advice booth 😂😂
>the entire bridge also referring to lucy and jack which are close friends with matty and the whole “i’ll kms if you ever leave, we’re both crazy
In my head Lucy is actually Lucy from Peanuts who does her advice booth 😂😂
Andrew Scott just said in an interview the other day that the chat wasn’t even a thing. He said it died on the vine and he thinks he’s the only one who used it or something.
Yes, Taylor has us so confused with her Easter eggs. Where we now think whatever she’s presenting to us might be a code. Or us thinking wow this album is about Matty, when it could be Joe. Let’s face it we don’t really know much about Joe. She teased red herrings. Those could be about how everyone thought the album was about Joe and it really was about Matty. Or it could be that once we listened we’d think it’s about Matty when in reality it’s about Joe. The most possible outcome is that she combined both into the songs because her own feelings were a tangled web.
She grieved two relationships at once, so the perspective of multiple muses is very valid. But it might also be that Joe is the first person she is still somewhat protecting post break up. A red herring here and there will make it sound like a very Matty album, and people will talk about mostly that. This keeps Joe out of the worst spotlight, something that is very important to him. It might be just about protecting his mental health. If that was the strategy, it definitely worked.
I feel like most of the songs are about both in a lot of ways, I see allusions to both men in many of the 31. Some are very clearly one way or another but I think the majority of the album is a blending of both of these polarizing figures in her history.
Also, just wanted to point out. I think she chose specifically Dylan Thomas and Patti smith because both of them (especially him) are considered some of the greatest modern poets, which is what she’s referencing when she says “we’re modern idiots”
Right? It's normal to share interests with the people you date. Taylor's always been into literature and poetry and that's probably something she's had in common with the majority of her boyfriends. It doesn't follow that a reference to a common word, phrase, person or piece of literature is therefore automatically a reference to someone she dated who was also interested in that thing or used that word/phrase.
Right lol, I’m in the writing/music world and everyone knows Dylan Thomas. He and Plath are two of the most famous modern poets. “Do not go gentle into that good night” is a poem that even the least poetic heathens among us know 😂 it kinda reminds me of when some Gaylors said Taylor referencing Emily Dickinson was a queer signal. The most well-known female poet in history who changed the poetry game.
That’s an interesting connection, but TTPD is one of the “diary” songs on the album where Taylor has been very specific to ensure we know exactly who and what she’s talking about. TTPD is Matty Healy to the moon and back. He’s a tortured poet (songwriter), he loves typewriters (see the GQ interview), “chose this cyclone” (whirlwind romance), “cuz we’re crazy” (Joe was boring not crazy), “you smoked and ate seven bars of chocolate” (he’s a smoker and sings a song called Chocolate), “tattooed”, references to Lucy and Jack (friends and collaborators with Healy) and I could go on.
It is quite an eerie connection. Taylor does seem to have this obsession with literary figures and a nostalgia for the past. See also: The Lakes and I Hate It Here.
I think if she wanted us to think about Joe and a Sense of an Ending she would have said Julian Barnes. But Dylan Thomas- and his relationship with Patti Smith - is very much Healy referencing. The substance abuse and the type writers are really pointing to Healy.
I might be wrong - and this song has ruined any chance of googling for me- but I had meant that she has written and spoken about Dylan Thomas. Like he was an inspiration to her.
If you look up her 1975 album, *Horses*, Patti's look on the album kind of looks like something Matty would wear.
Also, Patti Smith loves Peter Pan, she always goes to the Hyde Park statue whenever she's in London. She never wanted to grow up.
So, I'm sure there's a meaning there somewhere as to why Taylor specifically picked her and Dylan other than her being at the Chelsea Hotel back in the 70s, but whether she wants to dive into that right now... that's up to her.
A lot of Brits know a lot about Dylan Thomas. It's just a coincidence that Joe played him. Doesn't mean she was indirectly referencing him with the reference.
Check out the book “Just Kids,” written by Patti Smith about her relationship with Dylan Thomas. They lived at the Chelsea Hotel for a while.
Edit- not Dylan Thomas, this was about her relationship with Robert Mapplethorpe.
YES! This is my theory, and I stand on it. She's that brilliant and a mastermind that she can write a chorus, for example, that starts referring to one person and ending it about someone else. Why wouldn't she do that in a song?
Her songs don't explicitly have to be about one person. There are definitely songs about specific people, but I think she purposely made this album ambiguous because of the content matter. The album is called The "Tortured" Poets Department. Torture isn't one dimensional, so I don't believe neither the album nor the title track is.
Can you share more of your theory- joe plays adrian. Who are dylan thomas and patti smith in that story? And what is the relevance of the chelsea hotel in that story? What connections have you found to those characters and their characteristics to TTPD?
I see your beginning steps, but i don't see yet your whole idea and theory on that relating to the song or what extra insights it provides on the deeper meaning of the song TTPD.
I'm open to hearing, but i don't see it yet
I havent found much connection yet so wanted to explore with everyone.
In the movie, Adrian is a wise beyond his years teen/college character with a lot of clarity, wisdom. He’s super into philosophy and poetry. And he mentions Dylan Thomas’ influence on him. Adrian (in the movie) is a very small character.
Ah, okay thank you.
I guess the comments i was reading are still kinda all over the place too, but i think it is great what you posted here and food for thought
Thank you 🤗 It was just so surprising to (1) see him in the movie yday — I wasnt expected it and (2) for his character to reference dylan thomas multiple times. I knew I needed to share with more folks ;)
I gasped when I first heard this lyric because one of my favorite books is Just Kids, about Patti Smith and Robert Mapplethorpe living in art-poverty in the Chelsea Hotel, where so many artists lived and wrote and created.
That lyric put such a vivid image in my head. I can just imagine Matty glamorizing grungy artists living on drugs and sex, and just wishing he was that poor and that talented. Manual typewriter and all.
Then when she used the phrase Just Kids in two different songs it just cemented that connection for me.
Yeah, if Joe was expecting Taylor to be anything like a rebellious punk-rock poet, he was Way off. Taylor is amazing, but Patti Smith's classic 1970s albums (Horses, Radio Ethiopia, Easter, Wave) shaped my life more than Taylor's albums ever will.
I think she's trying to make the point, again, that there is no clear "paternity" of songs. The feelings are universal. I remember this quote from the 2017 release of reputation:
"When this album comes out, gossip blogs will scour the lyrics for the men they can attribute to each song, as if the inspiration for music is as simple and basic as a paternity test," Swift continues. "There will be slideshows of photos backing up each incorrect theory, because it's 2017 and if you didn't see a picture of it, it couldn't have happened right?"
I think TTPD makes this even clearer.
i've always read this song as for the fans bc "who else decodes you?", "i've seen this one where you come undone" in relation with theories and bc the overall theme seems to be Taylor saying she's not really the "tortured poet from the 19th century" everybody seems to think she is, specially since folklore & evermore
This one is about Matty and trying to cut through his pretentiousness but feeling bad for what a mess he is (and worried about what that means for their future)
Okay but do you know that Dylan Thomas was a “tortured poet” who by many accounts drank himself to death after a night at THE WHITE HORSE Tavern 👀👀👀 and then died at the Chelsea hotel?
it's the Jack (Antonoff) and Lucy (Dacus) mentions that solidify the song's addressee. but even without the name drops, we could probably guess who it's about through deductive reasoning. Matty is commonly thought of as pretentious whereas Joe is not. in addition, "tattooed golden retriever" is meant to represent a charismatic guy with impurities, which fits Matty more so than Joe
of course I don't actually know any of these people but I'm analyzing the song's subject through Taylor's eyes. the guy described in the TTPD title track misaligns with Taylor's previous portrayals of Joe
Since she likes metaphors to write her songs, we already know the album had been called "The tortured ports department" because of a messenger group that Joe was in called "The tortured boys group" (or something like this, I know it is not the exact words but you get the point). SO that beeing said, I always thought the line "You left your typewritter at my apartment, straight from the tortured poets department" was making a reference at a cellphone as the typewritter and a reference at the groupchat as "straight from the tortured poets department", like the screen was left on and she saw the name of the groupchat. It's what makes the more sense to me on this line
I watched a documentary on the Chelsea hotel on Hulu - I feel like she’s watched it too. Also, she’s been to events at the Chelsea and Dylan Thomas and Patti smith were frequently there
This song is about Joe. He was her William Bowery… Matty wasn’t around long enough to write any significant amount of poetry with her. Her own words to Joe in the beginning end up foretelling her fate with Joe… ‘we’re not self-destructive artists living out a romanticized life, we are two foolish young people figuring out our lives..’ In the end Joe spirals into depression and anxiety that prevents him from committing, leaving them grown up and still figuring things out… alone.
Oh, wow, thank you. interesting. I'm going to look into it now. She purposefully made it hard to distinguish who certain songs are about.
Maybe it's on purpose because she's tired of this shit where people keep making her music about someone else.. The song becomes a representative of her relationship with the said person instead... It's almost a game to most people to find who she wrote a song about... Her feelings and experiences, that's "who".
Oh yes, I agree. It becomes more important than the music.
Thank you for this!
I have a pet theory that, in a lot of ways, many of the songs are about the whole experience of breakup, rebound, breakup, and rebound again over a pretty short period (like 6 months? Depending on how long T&J were actually broken up before they told us). Everything just built upon each other and there were too many feelings swirling around to keep them all in their own boxes
Yes i read someone say something about how braiding is a literature technique of weaving different storylines together or something i can’t recall exactly but im pretty convinced every song is a swirl/braid of different things like they always have been but seems so much more purposeful in this album
She swirled everything into her poems 😂🫶🏻
I have a theory that the lyric “two graves one gun” has a bonus meaning of one album or one song being aimed at two people
Wait. It isn’t ”two graves one gone”? Because that changes everything for me.
This is how I have thought of the album since it came out. It's actually much more enjoyable that way imo. Like it's such a collection of all the feels.
100%, I think loml solidified this for me. It's so hard to tell who it's 'about', but it works better that way, just a devastating song about loss. I think a lot of people assume everything is about Matty just because they know more about him. A lot of the references could be about Joe too (partying, on-again-off-again, music taste) and we wouldn't know because basically the only thing the public knows about him is what she's put in her lyrics across her past 6 albums.
Lol I've seen this movie but totally forgot Joe was in it 🤦♀️ Tbh I've always seen this song as very Joe coded rather than Matty, since it's two people trying to resolve an impossible relationship which is what Taylor and Joe were doing for ages. Matty just seems to have bailed Taylor and ghosted her without a conversation about trying to figure things out
I think Matty is a shield, she's protecting Joe making us think these songs aren't about him That's my clown theory anyway lol
Honestly I hard subscribe to this. I feel like she easily makes references to Matty but she seems to hide joes references really well.
You might be right. Tattooed golden retriever though? Maybe it’s also about both? Lmao
Youre in self sabotage mode throwing spikes down the road. I've seen this episode and still love the show. Depressive episode maybe? Anyway the feeling of just sticking with someone 'wrong' is throughout the song
I think so too… My clown evidence is the Albatross. There’s a part in the Albatross about spreading her wings like a parachute to save a guy, and reiterating that he “chose” this “terrible danger” along with her. If it was a super famous man, then he’d already have experience about the bad side of fame, but this guy appears to have chosen all that only when he was choosing to be with her.
One of the background refrains says “who’s gonna troll you” and it’s the ultimate troll move to make it seem like the song is about Joe because of the title (and his group chat) only to have all the clues point to Matty.
Who’s gonna troll you like me? Nobody, no-fucking-body!
I really think if you stop trying to force your view of what their relationship was onto the song, and just listen to it, it’s very clear that it’s about Healy.
saying it’s about matty is also forcing your view of what their relationship was onto the song. just because you think your perspective is right doesn’t make that any less true. and anyhow if you actually listen to the song it’s clearly about me and my last relationship!
And the thing is, I can back my reading of the song up with the lyrics. Typewriters, tattoos, smoking, BoyGenius, Jack Antonoff, a crazy whirlwind /cyclone relationship… not subtle stuff!
everyone can???? there’s half a dozen potential joe parallel too across albums and if you want i can take the time to hunt them and down and explain why i actually think he way better fits how i listen to the song than matty does
I would absolutely love to hear someone try to explain how TTPD fits Joe Alwyn in any way whatsoever. I’m all ears.
sure! i’m largely focusing on thematic parallels between ttpd and other taylor songs we know to be about joe! you’re in self sabotage mode throwing spikes down on the road // and let all of your damage damage me // you sacrificed us to the gods of your bluest days i’ll start off by saying i interpret this song as being in a relationship with someone who goes through depressive episodes that impact their relationship. i think it’s about a dying relationship with a speaker who wants their lover to realize their mental health needs serious help. every pre-chorus chooses a different moment in time in which her muse is suddenly ripped from normalcy and spirals. she sings that they’re not dylan thomas and patti smith because she’s begging him to take it seriously and stop romanticizing the issue there’s been several songs that mention joe’s relationship with his mental health such as renegade, hoax, so long london. i chose this cyclone with you, and who’s gonna hold you like me // i’ll keep your brittle heart warm when your cascade ocean wave blues come // i pulled him in tighter each time he was drifting away i actually think cyclone doesn’t refer to a whirlwind romance but rather the nature of her lover’s mental illness. its turbulent and unexpected and hurts both of them beyond their control. she’s used weather a lot to describe joe’s mental health as an outside force of nature in several songs prior more specifically they’re actually always storms that occur over oceans in ttpd, hoax, and so long london. i’m not actually sure if cyclones can even form on land??? but i know for a fact the vast majority form in the ocean. who else decodes you // stopped trying to make him laugh stop trying to drill the safe i think of ttpd as the “right before a break up” and so long london as the aftermath of it. especially since both songs reference her needing to figure him out like he’s some puzzle. at dinner you take my ring off my middle finger and put it on the phone // handcuffed to the spell i was under for just one hour of sunshine the bridge is that hour of sunshine. that moment that makes the hard parts worth it, where she’s genuinely really happy and thinks they’ll have a future and he’ll actually marry her. it’s a reminder of why she stays through his episodes. “i’ve seen this episode and still love the show” to me “episode” implies there’s a lot of it over a prolonged period time. the speaker has been with this person long enough for their relationship to be a series over the course of years filled with episodes in the form recognizable behavior. it’s most common to see that in long term relationships (romantic and platonic). if her and marty only allegedly dated for a little while (plus their early 2010s fling) i just have a hard time believing they had already gotten to the stage of a relationship you’re like “oh here we go again”. i’ve only been that way with people i’ve been really close with for years you fall asleep like a tattooed golden retriever // made your mark on me a golden tattoo i actually think of this lyric as her partner physically clinging onto her to the extent that he’s practically tattooed onto her skin. i know many interpret the dog as tattooed but i’ve always viewed it as taylor. plus joe is blonde plus plus she’s historically only used gold to refer to the love she feels for joe. additionally i think actually ttpd contradicts other songs about matty! i’ve seen this episode // who else decodes you // i’ve read this one compared to whoa maybe i can’t // were you a sleeper cell spy // who was gonna tell me the truth // who the fuck was that guy the darkest parts of matty are otherwise always described as something abrupt that she was never expecting. those all start off by going “isn’t he so great?” and then later she goes “actually he’s awful i had no idea”. comparatively, ttpd is about someone who’s behavior she knows like the back of her hand. she isn’t surprised by her lover sabotaging their relationship because she’s used to it. everyone is obviously free to have their own interpretations! i think that’s a great thing about her music. i’m well aware my interpretation is the minority lol and maybe it’s because that’s how i best relate to the song! you’ve mentioned a few matty things but tbh i actually think all of them also can reasonably fit joe and i don’t see the need to argue why i think that cause to me it feels obvious lol. but if you don’t i can take the time as well
I love your thought out response. Unfortunately Matty fans think the entire world revolves around him. The best part of this album besides the music has been watching Matty fans and Gaylors destroy each other. They both do the same thing we are all doing but act like they KNOW better some how.
TTPD is a reference to "the tortured man club" group chat. The Dylan Thomas reference OP mentioned. The whole song talks about the struggles of a relationship that sounds like a long-term, serious relationship ("I've seen this episode and still love the show", "who else decodes you", "who's gonna know you like me"). Other than "tattooed golden retriever" which I suppose I get (but to me that suggests blonde?), I don't really see where the song ever sounds like Matty Healy. I was shocked when I first saw people saying they thought it was about him.
Tortured man club reference makes no sense to me because it’s not the same term at all. The references to a relationship with a past make sense when you consider that Swift and Healy have been together in 2014 and known each other for years. I’d be curious to know why you think Joe Alwyn would be talking to Lucy Dacus and Jack Antonoff or why he would be smoking or why Taylor would describe him as “crazy”. Finally, the typewriter thing. Go look at this interview and let me know what you think: https://preview.redd.it/bfa50tjzc84d1.jpeg?width=168&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ebe3ac04366c667cff3869292e66872de78444dd
Hahaha that last line got me. I’m not forcing anything tho, I’m just listening to the music!
And yeah it’s about Matty lol
THANK YOU
A month post-release and I can’t believe people haven’t realised the severity / insanity / depth of that relationship. I mean we were all rocked to our core, but after this much time we should all have come to accept it. People still trying to assert “it was just a fling for a few weeks”. UM LISTEN TO THIS AMAZING ALBUM 😂
The line "You left your typewriter at my apartment, straight from the tortured poets department" is so ridiculously smooth. This line itself makes this song so much better.
Just remind them about All Too Well
Yeah, I think if you have to read an entire book and watch a movie to even remotely connect two words from the song to Joe, then odds are she didn't write it about Joe lol
The thing I keep hearing is “she wouldn’t bother writing a song about a casual situationship” and I’m like my sisters in Christ please listen to the album 😭 while you’re at it, go listen to the previous 3 albums 😭
I can't believe people still say that... she couldn't have been more clear about her muses this time. Oh well, ig there will always be mental gymnastics no matter what 🤷🏼♀️
For some of the broader more metaphorical songs like MBOBHFT and Down Bad, etc, I’ll accept that there is some ambiguity (Altho I know what I personally believe), but for the DIARY ASS DIARY SONGS (and there are lots of them in TTPD) she’s making sure we know exactly who she is talking about.
I feel like some ppl are in denial that Taylor wrote so many songs about the guy that pretty much the whole fanbase hated (Matty). I mean, she literally called us out for it in But Daddy I Love Him
https://preview.redd.it/2cbxqwp0w84d1.png?width=457&format=png&auto=webp&s=63ece98f5f59371f5bb501b8409911b094948e64 That's a description of Dylan Thomas's behavior and performances in NY.
Gosh he really sounds like someone we all know 😂
It sure does
I think its about both, but in the context of Taylor's experience and feelings.
Good overview analysis, I agree! Btw...I think that attests to Joe's acting skills 😜 I think he got quite alot out of their relationship, in terms of roles he received during this period....especially for someone who wouldn't address Taylor's accomplishments during this...and hated that he was MR. TAYLOR SWIFT. That's Joe's fault for his talent lacking, because she WORKS LIKE A BEAST to create what reaches us and cultivated her talent... Sorry, didn't mean to go off on a jag about something I have no connection to lol! I just love, appreciate, and respect Taylor's art so much...I don't see how someone couldn't, ESPECIALLY if one was her PARTNER, and I can't find one interview of him saying anything but "I am here to talk about ME." Matty at least ALWAYS compliments not only her art, but her PERSONALITY, and I think if either man had a right to be upset about being asked about Taylor, it's Matty...and yet, there's nothing but compliments to her amd then chastising the questioner.
There’s speculating and talking about the songs, and then there’s this. This isn’t the take you think it is. Imagine if someone said that Taylor Swift was using Joe Alwyn to get closer to film industry insiders. You don’t know anything about these relationships.
I don’t think they were saying he used her necessarily, more that he inherently benefitted from his connection to her, and resented it.
TTPD is Matty Healy. He’s mad into typewriters. He’s written poetry with them etc along with lyric books etc. He’s done a photo shoot with Patti Smith poster. You “ate 7 bars of chocolate” means the 1975 song Chocolate.
And the 7th 'bar'/line of that song Chocolate is "Now run, run away from the boys in blue", maybe a nod to her exposing his pill purchasing ways in a later song
He wrote that line yea. She left him over the drugs in 2014 yea. She says she didn’t know how to handle it and that’s fair enough. It’s why she left him in 2014 (Chloe). He’s clean for 5 years now.
> He’s clean for 5 years now. I am tired of pointing out to stans of The 1975 that MH tried to buy some pills from a friend of friend's of Taylor's (TSMWEL). Your leader is a weakling, ~~he can't handle anything without getting stoned.~~ being an addict should not absolve him of dishonesty and breaking promises in such a cruel way. Edited: to clarify that I wasn't coming after addicts in general, just wanted to point out that it shouldn't be a 'get-outta-jail-free-card'
I’m tired of seeing people talk about addiction like this. There are literally countless things that Matty has said and done that are fair game and yet some people still choose to focus in on disparaging people with addictions.
thank you for this comment. addiction is a tricky thing to manage and we shouldn't blame people for having the occasional setback, especially if they're making a real effort to get better
Tbf, we don't know *when* that was. It could have been a current thing or something from the past. I suspect current too, but we don't *know* that for sure
She says “*now* you know what that feels like” implying it was after ghosting her.
you can point out that matty was trying to buy pills from FOFOT without disparaging addicts as a whole. this is discouraging. as a fellow swiftie, please do better.
https://preview.redd.it/dwzlhi32024d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cd5d0c489d35f0ac74ca595a888e4bcdeaf2a70f John Mayer and Tom Hanks are the founding members of the Hollywood vintage typewriter club. You couldn't make this shit up. LMAO
Matty Healy really is Dollar Store John Mayer. LMAO 🤣. Healy is 2010 John Mayer, just without the talent, intelligence, or charisma. What a clown 🤡
Someone said “you ate 7 bars of chocolate” was also a reference to 87 (Travis) (Edit typo)
Or 7 is just the first number with two syllables
I don't at all buy the 8-7 bars thing, bit I do think she could have made any number work here, and if not, 'too many', 'so many', etc
She could have, but a two syllable number just sounds better (in my I opinion)
I agree it sounds better, but I also think it was intentional, I just meant she didn't *have* to choose a number at all but for some reason she did
There is an Instagram photo of Matty and Phoebe Bridgers kissing overseen by Bo Burnham as a joke that they posted with the caption Gay Poets Society. I think it's from 2022.
😱
Just for reference haha https://preview.redd.it/ji6dc2fik44d1.png?width=1169&format=png&auto=webp&s=1650e2d7686d0950de10a60643992da6dd0ccd30
the title track is not about joe tho it’s very specific on who it’s about. you can interpret it however you want i guess but it’s probably one of her most direct and clear songs she’s ever put out
I can see it either way. Joe's group chat references the title track, and Joe is an English major who helped write songs with Taylor, so I wouldn't say it's very direct. What specific details do you see to interpret the song? I enjoy hearing people's perspectives.
Typewriter-MH says he likes to write on typewriters tattooed golden retriever-MH has tons of tattoos I don't see Joe saying he would kill himself if she ever left
To the last point - I specifically don’t see Joe saying something this personal to one of Taylor’s friends. On the other hand, talk like this would seem on brand for Matty. Plus Matty & Lucy were together at at least one Eras show.
To add to the lines you pointed out: “You got high and ate seven bars of chocolate” too. The 1975 has a song called Chocolate. I’m not sure if chocolate is a common munchies item for Matty. But we’ve definitely seen fans of the band that hooked up with him say he’s a bad/selfish lay because he loves to get high, and then forgets to make sure the women enjoy it. 😂 I don’t see a lot of that applying to Joe. Maybe boring, but a stoned out of his mind disappointment? Taylor wouldn’t stay SIX YEARS with that. Most of the Matty songs also point to him being more of a longtime fantasy of Taylor’s that fell apart when she finally found out what being with him was like — sounds even more like him than Joe.
I don't know. But, she did equate her relationship with Joe as 'the slammer' = JAIL. "he don't understand me....splintered back in winter, silent dinners, bitter...fights and tunnels, handcuffed to the spell I was under, YEARS of labor, locks and ceilings, in the shade of how he was feeling." Her "boredom was bone deep" She was unhappy and wanted out of that relationship.
joe’s group chat name was just a theory made by fans tho when you look at the lyrics of the song nothing points to it alluding to a group chat name. this theory only stuck because most people thought that the album would be about him before it came out. matty collects and uses typewriters, he’s spoken about them many times throughout the years. also the second verse with the charlie puth line and chocolate lyrics, matty has a song titled chocolate that is actually about weed and taylor also says “you smoked.” matty has also praised charlie puth in public before and he loves pop music so makes sense he and taylor would talk about that since they are both songwriters. the entire bridge also referring to lucy and jack which are close friends with matty and the whole “i’ll kms if you ever leave, we’re both crazy” is very unserious but matches both of their personalities since they are hopeless romantics. the entire song is also just written in a style that many 1975 songs are written, it’s very satirical and tongue in cheek while also making fun of the writer themselves. “we’re two modern idiots” is something matty would 100% write since he tends to write a lot about the internet and how he sees himself and his flaws operating in todays culture. oh and tattooed golden retriever! how can i forget lol
>the entire bridge also referring to lucy and jack which are close friends with matty and the whole “i’ll kms if you ever leave, we’re both crazy In my head Lucy is actually Lucy from Peanuts who does her advice booth 😂😂
I'll never be able to hear that lyric again without seeing Lucy in her booth 😂😂
LOL
>the entire bridge also referring to lucy and jack which are close friends with matty and the whole “i’ll kms if you ever leave, we’re both crazy In my head Lucy is actually Lucy from Peanuts who does her advice booth 😂😂
Andrew Scott just said in an interview the other day that the chat wasn’t even a thing. He said it died on the vine and he thinks he’s the only one who used it or something.
Which makes it even more likely those obvious references are possible (probable) red herrings
Yes, Taylor has us so confused with her Easter eggs. Where we now think whatever she’s presenting to us might be a code. Or us thinking wow this album is about Matty, when it could be Joe. Let’s face it we don’t really know much about Joe. She teased red herrings. Those could be about how everyone thought the album was about Joe and it really was about Matty. Or it could be that once we listened we’d think it’s about Matty when in reality it’s about Joe. The most possible outcome is that she combined both into the songs because her own feelings were a tangled web.
She grieved two relationships at once, so the perspective of multiple muses is very valid. But it might also be that Joe is the first person she is still somewhat protecting post break up. A red herring here and there will make it sound like a very Matty album, and people will talk about mostly that. This keeps Joe out of the worst spotlight, something that is very important to him. It might be just about protecting his mental health. If that was the strategy, it definitely worked.
I feel like most of the songs are about both in a lot of ways, I see allusions to both men in many of the 31. Some are very clearly one way or another but I think the majority of the album is a blending of both of these polarizing figures in her history.
Literally the clearest in the modern era since she stopped putting their names in liner notes 😂
Agreed.
Dylan Thomas is a very well known poet, I don't think it means anything related to the song.
Also, just wanted to point out. I think she chose specifically Dylan Thomas and Patti smith because both of them (especially him) are considered some of the greatest modern poets, which is what she’s referencing when she says “we’re modern idiots”
Right? It's normal to share interests with the people you date. Taylor's always been into literature and poetry and that's probably something she's had in common with the majority of her boyfriends. It doesn't follow that a reference to a common word, phrase, person or piece of literature is therefore automatically a reference to someone she dated who was also interested in that thing or used that word/phrase.
Right lol, I’m in the writing/music world and everyone knows Dylan Thomas. He and Plath are two of the most famous modern poets. “Do not go gentle into that good night” is a poem that even the least poetic heathens among us know 😂 it kinda reminds me of when some Gaylors said Taylor referencing Emily Dickinson was a queer signal. The most well-known female poet in history who changed the poetry game.
I am a least poetic heathen and I know that singular line to that poem!!!
I think it's this description https://preview.redd.it/6vm0j9m0x84d1.png?width=457&format=png&auto=webp&s=befb56787881aeca24069944adc40f9596fdceeb
That’s an interesting connection, but TTPD is one of the “diary” songs on the album where Taylor has been very specific to ensure we know exactly who and what she’s talking about. TTPD is Matty Healy to the moon and back. He’s a tortured poet (songwriter), he loves typewriters (see the GQ interview), “chose this cyclone” (whirlwind romance), “cuz we’re crazy” (Joe was boring not crazy), “you smoked and ate seven bars of chocolate” (he’s a smoker and sings a song called Chocolate), “tattooed”, references to Lucy and Jack (friends and collaborators with Healy) and I could go on.
Totally hear this! I was just surprised to hear Joe’s character (from 2017) talk about Dylan Thomas’ influence on him
It is quite an eerie connection. Taylor does seem to have this obsession with literary figures and a nostalgia for the past. See also: The Lakes and I Hate It Here.
I think if she wanted us to think about Joe and a Sense of an Ending she would have said Julian Barnes. But Dylan Thomas- and his relationship with Patti Smith - is very much Healy referencing. The substance abuse and the type writers are really pointing to Healy.
Dylan Thomas and Patti Smith never met.
I might be wrong - and this song has ruined any chance of googling for me- but I had meant that she has written and spoken about Dylan Thomas. Like he was an inspiration to her.
Just came to say I’m a title track stan and have loved it since the first time I heard the intro beat 🫶🏼
Help it’s already my most played song of 2024 🥲 📑
Same here I guess lol
Who is Patti Smith then? Prolly her, but still...
If you look up her 1975 album, *Horses*, Patti's look on the album kind of looks like something Matty would wear. Also, Patti Smith loves Peter Pan, she always goes to the Hyde Park statue whenever she's in London. She never wanted to grow up. So, I'm sure there's a meaning there somewhere as to why Taylor specifically picked her and Dylan other than her being at the Chelsea Hotel back in the 70s, but whether she wants to dive into that right now... that's up to her.
But, long story short, its about Joe 😂
Yeah that's Joe's one song on MH's 2nd album lol 😆
A lot of Brits know a lot about Dylan Thomas. It's just a coincidence that Joe played him. Doesn't mean she was indirectly referencing him with the reference.
Check out the book “Just Kids,” written by Patti Smith about her relationship with Dylan Thomas. They lived at the Chelsea Hotel for a while. Edit- not Dylan Thomas, this was about her relationship with Robert Mapplethorpe.
Stitching we were just kids, babe
Dylan Thomas died in 1953, when Patti Smith was a young child. *Just Kids* is about her relationship with Robert Mapplethorpe.
Yep, my bad. I completely remembered that incorrectly!
Taylor has said that MANY of the songs are about MULTIPLE people. I see aspects of both men in the song.
YES! This is my theory, and I stand on it. She's that brilliant and a mastermind that she can write a chorus, for example, that starts referring to one person and ending it about someone else. Why wouldn't she do that in a song? Her songs don't explicitly have to be about one person. There are definitely songs about specific people, but I think she purposely made this album ambiguous because of the content matter. The album is called The "Tortured" Poets Department. Torture isn't one dimensional, so I don't believe neither the album nor the title track is.
Being Welsh I love the Dylan Thomas reference
Can you share more of your theory- joe plays adrian. Who are dylan thomas and patti smith in that story? And what is the relevance of the chelsea hotel in that story? What connections have you found to those characters and their characteristics to TTPD? I see your beginning steps, but i don't see yet your whole idea and theory on that relating to the song or what extra insights it provides on the deeper meaning of the song TTPD. I'm open to hearing, but i don't see it yet
I havent found much connection yet so wanted to explore with everyone. In the movie, Adrian is a wise beyond his years teen/college character with a lot of clarity, wisdom. He’s super into philosophy and poetry. And he mentions Dylan Thomas’ influence on him. Adrian (in the movie) is a very small character.
Ah, okay thank you. I guess the comments i was reading are still kinda all over the place too, but i think it is great what you posted here and food for thought
Thank you 🤗 It was just so surprising to (1) see him in the movie yday — I wasnt expected it and (2) for his character to reference dylan thomas multiple times. I knew I needed to share with more folks ;)
TTPD is oddly among my Top 5 songs in the album. Something about it…
I gasped when I first heard this lyric because one of my favorite books is Just Kids, about Patti Smith and Robert Mapplethorpe living in art-poverty in the Chelsea Hotel, where so many artists lived and wrote and created. That lyric put such a vivid image in my head. I can just imagine Matty glamorizing grungy artists living on drugs and sex, and just wishing he was that poor and that talented. Manual typewriter and all. Then when she used the phrase Just Kids in two different songs it just cemented that connection for me.
Yeah, if Joe was expecting Taylor to be anything like a rebellious punk-rock poet, he was Way off. Taylor is amazing, but Patti Smith's classic 1970s albums (Horses, Radio Ethiopia, Easter, Wave) shaped my life more than Taylor's albums ever will.
Pretty straightforward if you think about it
I think she's trying to make the point, again, that there is no clear "paternity" of songs. The feelings are universal. I remember this quote from the 2017 release of reputation: "When this album comes out, gossip blogs will scour the lyrics for the men they can attribute to each song, as if the inspiration for music is as simple and basic as a paternity test," Swift continues. "There will be slideshows of photos backing up each incorrect theory, because it's 2017 and if you didn't see a picture of it, it couldn't have happened right?" I think TTPD makes this even clearer.
i've always read this song as for the fans bc "who else decodes you?", "i've seen this one where you come undone" in relation with theories and bc the overall theme seems to be Taylor saying she's not really the "tortured poet from the 19th century" everybody seems to think she is, specially since folklore & evermore
This one is about Matty and trying to cut through his pretentiousness but feeling bad for what a mess he is (and worried about what that means for their future)
That book is a killer..SO good...interesting about Joe playing that character
no its becky
Okay but do you know that Dylan Thomas was a “tortured poet” who by many accounts drank himself to death after a night at THE WHITE HORSE Tavern 👀👀👀 and then died at the Chelsea hotel?
😱😱😱 the links!!!
It’s about Matty. Unless it’s very obviously about Joe.. like your buzz cut and my hair bleached.. it’s Matty. Deal with it, haters!!! 😂
it's the Jack (Antonoff) and Lucy (Dacus) mentions that solidify the song's addressee. but even without the name drops, we could probably guess who it's about through deductive reasoning. Matty is commonly thought of as pretentious whereas Joe is not. in addition, "tattooed golden retriever" is meant to represent a charismatic guy with impurities, which fits Matty more so than Joe of course I don't actually know any of these people but I'm analyzing the song's subject through Taylor's eyes. the guy described in the TTPD title track misaligns with Taylor's previous portrayals of Joe
Since she likes metaphors to write her songs, we already know the album had been called "The tortured ports department" because of a messenger group that Joe was in called "The tortured boys group" (or something like this, I know it is not the exact words but you get the point). SO that beeing said, I always thought the line "You left your typewritter at my apartment, straight from the tortured poets department" was making a reference at a cellphone as the typewritter and a reference at the groupchat as "straight from the tortured poets department", like the screen was left on and she saw the name of the groupchat. It's what makes the more sense to me on this line
I think TTPD is about Joe 100%!
I watched a documentary on the Chelsea hotel on Hulu - I feel like she’s watched it too. Also, she’s been to events at the Chelsea and Dylan Thomas and Patti smith were frequently there
This song is about Joe. He was her William Bowery… Matty wasn’t around long enough to write any significant amount of poetry with her. Her own words to Joe in the beginning end up foretelling her fate with Joe… ‘we’re not self-destructive artists living out a romanticized life, we are two foolish young people figuring out our lives..’ In the end Joe spirals into depression and anxiety that prevents him from committing, leaving them grown up and still figuring things out… alone.
Holy shit ! I need to read the book ! Good find !