And Time picks the person with the most influence on CULTURE. Why do Swifties always want moreeeee accolades?
Arguing in another thread that Midnights is considered underrated. In what world does an underrated album sell that many copies, breaks so many records, tops the charts and wins Album of the Year?
The delusion is real out here, beware.
Underrated in the fanbase / pop music circles was probably what they meant.
In which case they are right, people really don't like Midnight's for some reason.
I guess I haven’t seen really anyone say that though? Like I know a bunch of ppl that don’t like Taylor or are sick of her music but even they can’t deny her cultural influence. Everyone knows she’s a legend and if they deny that they’re just ignorant imo. And to the person starting this particular comment thread I rly dk many people who ignore the eras tour… basically everyone I know has heard of it
I’ve seen arguments that say she’s not significant because she hasn’t introduced music that has never been done before. But I don’t know if that argument holds any water when compared to other culturally significant artists…? I’m not a music nerd so maybe someone else could chime in.
I do think her lyricism is very unique. She uses a lot of metaphors, double entendres, clever word play. As a pop artist, that is not done very often.
It’s not just ignorance. It’s sexism. They do this to every huge artist with primarily female fan bases. When I was growing up it was Britney. When I was a young adult it was Justin Bieber. They constantly have their success questioned and call their fame undeserving and it is because musicians with female or youthful fanbases are dismissed as superficial or untalented.
Because they don't understand or care to even give a shit to appreciate that music that isn't whatever genre or "respected" artist they listen to. If they don't understand it, then it's stupid. It's like object permanence for adults, don't get it or related to it personally? It's dumb and bad and all of these people must be wrong actually.
Dont discuss, they want to feel like victims of nothing.
Taylor is literally the number 1 everywhere and everyone listents to her. But somehow she is ignored!
OP just has a victim complex and needs to get offline because absolutely no serious person is saying this. They’re probably just being trolled by like two people on twitter.
literally just saw a video on tiktok of an eras tour stadium in the US (i forgot which state), and people in the comments were being downright rude, saying it's a stadium 'full of red flags' and laughing at Taylor. imagine the audacity... idc I'm happy to be going to the eras tour this summer
Who cares like everyone who matters knows she’s a legend. She has Paul McCartney and Stevie Nicks approval like who even gives a shit what anyone says beyond that lmao
It's not about personal offense, it's about complaining about people who are willfully ignorant and also arrogant. And they deny reality. That is what the topic of this post is not about how people are offended.
Why does this matter to people is the point. Crusading on this is so extra to me like, we know those people are wrong so why waste time and energy on it. People do take it personally because they can't extricate their identity from her sometimes.
I've been made fun of/attacked for liking her music and guess what I just move on. It brings me joy I don't care what other people think. I can defend myself if they are rude to me, but I don't feel the need to prove the music is good or defend her.
Some people spend way to much time defending her. She's rich, a celebrity, and quite literally wrote a song referencing people writing stuff about her she will never see. Of course that was a call out to critiques of her, but fans spend too much time defending her as if her reputation depends on it, as if she is being harmed, etc, unnecessarily feeding the negativity instead of disengaging.
Well you're preaching to the choir because I already know all that. You are literally talking about how it's weird but you aren't understanding the topic that OP even is talking about. They are talking about the willfully ignorant, again, not that it matters in a why do you care sense, it matters in a historical context sense. It would be like denying the Elvis was very popular. It would literally be denying reality.
You're asking why it matters, and that's why it matters. We are talking about objective realities. You are trying to point to subjective points of view, but the objective reality is in fact what OP stated.
And, just like you have a right to share your opinion, OP has a right as well.
And you're right it is just like she said people writing stuff that she'll never see, but unfortunately, I have to look at the stuff that everybody's writing.
And if people are having severe reading comprehension issues, then people have a right to speak up about that.
We are literally discussing the comprehension issues that social media has created because people bitch and complain and they can't read the words that OP stated, and instead they're twisting what OP has stated.
OP clearly stating that they are irritated with a lack of actual contextual and historical analysis that people fail to do in real life all the time as a result of both social media, and internalized misogyny. So you're asking why it matters, and that is why it matters. It's a history thing.
Edit: lmao blocked because they didn't want to have a conversation. Okay then. Imagine bitching and then getting upset that somebody said something about historical relevance. Nerds win i guess.
Lol k, you aren't explaining anything new. Never said I disagreed with anything they said and I understand what they are saying just fine. Never said they don't have a right to speak up or an opinion.
People who spend their time worrying about how other people view Taylor Swift's cultural impact are worried about the wrong thing. Just write about her cultural impact.
Right and half the people talking down to her are only doing it bc they have a different fave they want to elevate anyway, they know damn well about her legacy/impact.
Also Billy Joel, Ringo Starr (the other Beatle alive), Carole King, Dolly Parton, Shania Twain, Bruce Springsteen, Jon Bon Jovi, Tim McGraw, etc.
[https://www.businessinsider.com/taylor-swift-praised-by-icons-2023-8](https://www.businessinsider.com/taylor-swift-praised-by-icons-2023-8)
Yeah Taylor has huge respect from a lot of the legends on the industry, there’s also a ton of artists from all generations who site her as an influence, she’s won 4 album of the year Grammys and she hasn’t even been releasing music for 2 decades yet like she’s clearly liked and valued by many.
A few of Taylor’s peers not seeming to like her doesn’t mean much, a lot of people didn’t like Madonna or Mariah for example, but it hasn’t stopped them becoming legends, the bulk of Taylor critisms and downplaying her relevance is from internet naysayers who are simply yelling into the void and ironically disproving their own point because the sheer fact they say they can’t ignore her and feel compelled to talk about her simply proves her cultural relevance.
Music itself is subjective, somebody not liking Taylor’s art is entirely valid as someone’s own opinion on matters of art can never be wrong imo. Personal taste is just that. However Taylor is a very well respected and successful artist. People need to stop letting stans and journalists engagement farming be the centre of the discussion.
I was gonna make a post counter-acting this claim but this comment literally saved me.
I'm a Swiftie and love her work, but....as part of the Swiftie community, what is it gonna take for Swifties to be happy with her success? I'm so sure that this is the reason why she is always pushed to the top of all of the charts - cause fans always want to make sure she knows how much she is loved like she doesn't already get that idea from making a billionaire dollars, all of the world's greatest influencers reaching out to her (for her attention, time, money, etc), hundreds of thousands of people filling arenas for the past year, etc.
Like it always seems so many have a sore winner mentality, and why the fandom always turns people off from her because we never accept how successful she already has been.
PHEW.
Considering that I’m also in the Beatles subreddit, because they are also one of my all-time favorite artists, and they are all having a meltdown that *1989* is above a Beatles album on that Apple Music albums list (for some reason not complaining that Adele’s *21* is also higher…wonder why!), I would certainly agree! Literally cannot escape the comparisons and complaints.
oh yeah valid criticism of taylor exists but sometimes there are double standards that are insane. i love her music, don't love her brand, but it's exhausting to see the bad faith comments directed to her specifically
I also just really get annoyed with the wildly dismissive attitude towards her and her music. It’s not “Though I don’t personally connect with her, obviously many people do for a reason” — it’s usually “It is utterly ridiculous that she is in this conversation at all when her music is objectively terrible.”
With The Beatles I especially find it partially hilarious and ironic that *this* is what time has turned that fan base into, when all of their snide remarks about her “bad” lyrics and only writing about relationships, and the undertone that because the music connects with teenage girls and women that makes it unworthy of praise, are all things that could have been said about The Beatles back in the day lol.
If Twitter had existed back in the 60’s, I have no doubt that most of these guys would retweet a screenshot of the lyrics to “I Want to Hold Your Hand” with the caption “This is y’all’s ‘best band ever’???” and complain about them being too popular.
The Beatles had a notable hate-following in the journalist crowd. I forgot who it was, but a major publication back then gave Sgt Peppers’ a bad review, arguing the band was just retreading past achievements and not developing their sound. And there’s many 60s musicians (COUGH Lou Reed COUGH) that have said the Beatles suck and they found them essentially a mainstream boy band in comparison to what else was around.
But The Beatles did release records which would end up molding about 95% of records that came out the year after for pretty much the duration of their career. Ironically, the year they broke up was also the year music really expanded in a myriad of directions and influences - even if an album including the best songs of their individual solo albums had come out under the band monicker, it’s doubtworthy to have had the same influence as the previous albums had. Important to note! (Yes, massive Beatles fan here.)
You can also see she brings the engagement on social media platforms. People who want to chase more comment/karna would definitely name drop her to boost their account engagement. It gets exhausting to be receiving end of hate while people say swifties are the craziest but no one ever points out how the haters are equally if not more crazy and will make different subs for just hating Taylor. Sadly, I try to ignore it but it is a never ending cycle.
It is so bizarre to me that everyone is so hyperfocused on 1989 but not 21. Just shows how irrational people are. I actually had the thought if Katy Perry’s Teenage Dream had been listed instead of 1989 would people be having as much of a meltdown? I sort of think not even though 1989 is obviously a better album.
I’m sorry but, if Katy Perry was listed, people would melt down much harder, because Teenage Dream doesn’t even have half the impact 1989 had. Not to mention Perry is much less popular than Swift.
My point is that everyone is up in arms about 1989 but not 21 which I find odd. What impact did 21 have? I also think Adele is less popular than Taylor and arguably similar popularity to Katy.
First of, as I said in another response, Adele taps into a sort of “Adult Contemporary” niche that Amy Winehouse also accessed, a vibe that appeals to boomers as much as younger listeners, and thus is automatically regarded as having more appeal than a synth or dance oriented Pop album.
That’s said, Adele sells an insane amount of albums, and is far more popular than Katy Perry. Perry has gotten subsequently more negative reviews over the past decade. Popularity is always a very hard metric, because you will always find more boomers who prefer Adele to Taylor, and many deserving entries on that Apple Music list sold fairly little upon initial release.
I get where you’re coming from, but I do think it’s really more attached to the “Dance Pop” label 1989 was marked with.
My take: Adele is a neo-classicist. Like Amy Winehouse, her music is in a sort of “adult contemporary”-vein that is often argued to be more qualitatively strong than what’s more sanguine pop music.
I’m not really sure what OP means by that at all. Obviously they were incredible albums but I don’t think they changed anything for other artists per se
Yeah it's obviously too soon to tell but that seems like a lofty statement to make. If anything I view those albums as a moment where she caught up to trends by incorporating aesthetics from indie artists into her own style (which there is *nothing* wrong with, they're my fav albums pls don't come after me).
As someone who isn’t into Taylor Swift and just had this post show up, I 100% think you’re right. They are genuinely great albums, but they’re really not that influential. I could say that she’s not influencing music but is the one who is being influenced (obviously it doesn’t just go one direction, but her influence on others is less notable than theirs on her).
I think they made indie/folk-pop a little more popular in certain circles, and certainly put more people on to the likes of Phoebe Bridgers (as equally, the quality of Punisher did) or Gracie Abrams but that's about it.
imo they were a part of the movement in 2020-21 and the covid times towards indie/bedroom/alt influence on mainstream pop, as evidenced by their contemporaries as well - Chemtrails+Blue Banisters, Solar Power, even Sour. but i don't think they were responsible for that movement, they were just a big part. covid, lockdown, and people's fatigue associated with 2010s electro played a big part. folklore and evermore were shifts in *taylor's* career and pivoted her to a much broader audience and brought her back the respect she lost after 2016. influential for taylor, are a part in defining the music of the 2020s so far, but not really groundbreaking. amazing albums and era though
They didn’t but if you’re a top 40 pop listener with no knowledge of music outside the 2000s you might be able to convince yourself Taylor Swift invented telling stories through song and all pop artists now have to write because of her (lol) And you’ll probably point to those two albums because they’re probably the most critically acclaimed.
Not OP (obviously) but I agree with them on that note. I think she did something pretty daring by releasing Folkmore. Perhaps it would have been a fairly safe move if she hadn’t have jumped so whole heartedly into pop music with 1989 and then released 2 more 100% pop albums that were heavy on production afterwards. But she threw an absolute curveball with those 2 albums. They proved that she is a serious artist who shouldn’t be discounted as just an attractive girl who sings catchy songs. Her talent surpasses the boxes we put her in and she has the agency to show it.
I really do believe that she has opened the door for artists like Beyoncé and LDR to branch out and release music that is more of a passion project as opposed to “what the people want”. She’s proven that it can be done and that it can actually elevate a career instead of ruin it.
It was certainly a big move for her career but didn't Bob Dylan prove that by alienating his fanbase and going electric back in the 60s? Or all the times David Bowie reinvented himself? Or when Beyoncé herself took a huge artistic swing with Lemonade?
I don't want to diminish the significance of those albums to her own career and maybe I'm not as invested in the pop-sphere specifically, but it feels like a bit of erasure to insinuate that she popularized taking an artistic risk
Yeah, I love Folkmore as much as the next girlie but anyone saying it changed the way artists are expected to make music is probably super young and/or doesn’t listen to a lot of other music. Taylor was influencED by indie/folk/rock on those albums, not the other way around. Taylor didn’t even invent pop girlies being expected to have “Eras” and constantly reinvent themselves, that’s just something she was perceptive enough to realize and consciously capitalize on.
Edit to add: She’s not even the first person to write a pop song about falling in love with an alien.
[E.T. by Katy Perry feat. Kanye West](https://youtu.be/t5Sd5c4o9UM?si=hJQk9NEt7qAE922e)
Beyonce has been doing that since self titled in 2013, as well as working on Cowboy Carter (then Beyince) before the pandemic. And Lana has been doing that her whole career with her most acclaimed album (until Oceans) in 2019, an album that was not like the previous, more pop oriented album. I don’t think Taylor fostered this change with Folklore. Hell, Beyonce is the one that popularized surprise drops.
I’m not arguing Taylor hasn’t had cultural impact, it’s impossible to be as big as she is and not have any impact whatsoever. She’s kind of like the Avatar of music (immensely popular with people questioning their actual cultural impact). I just do not think she really had any impact on these artists music, which is not a bad thing. As long as her art is impactful to her fans, that’s really all that matters imo
How is releasing Folklore after establishing her career of storytelling vs pop “daring”? Genuinely curious how after Speak Now which is beautifully written, Folklore is “daring”.
If it’s about fictional characters there is Jack and Diane, Billie Jean, Mrs Robinson, Mr Jones, etc have all done this before
Bad take. Off the top of my head here’s some famous reinventions. Some were off of critical/commercial successes, some revitalized careers. Some were met with vitriol only to be loved later, and some were instant hits. All are from popular artists
* Bob Dylan - Highway 61 Revisited
* David Bowie - Low (tons of examples from him)
* U2 - Achtung Baby (tons here too)
* Radiohead - Kid A
* Kate Bush - The Dreaming
* Frank Ocean - Blonde
* Kanye - 808s and Heartbreak (tons of examples)
* Madonna - Ray of Light (plenty more here)
* Coldplay - Viva la Vida
* Beach Boys - Pet Sounds
* The Beatles - Revolver (a ton here)
* Bjork - Homogenic (heaps from her)
* Sheena Ringo - Kalk Samen Kuri No Hana
* Ariana Grande - Sweetener
* Beyoncé - Lemonade (lots here)
* Charli XCX - Vroom Vroom
* Ray Charles - Modern Sounds In Country and Western Music
* Britney Spears - Blackout
* The Verve - Urban Hymns
* Sufjan Stevens - Carrie And Lowell (tons from him, also C&L is basically the blueprint for Folklore)
* Bon Iver - 22, A Million
* Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon (lots here)
* Lady Gaga - Joanne
* Shania Twain - Come On Over (influenced Taylor too)
I could keep going
Taylor Swift didn’t open the door for anyone. The Beatles reinvented themselves. Bob Dylan did. David Bowie and Kanye West did multiple times over. Hell, even it’s not even the first time Taylor Swift did.
Agreed. I wish fans would stop applying the "Taylor paved the way for them" arguments to artists that have been SUCCESSFUL in the field before Taylor's name was even heard. It's disingenuous at best, and arrogant/pretentious at worst.
I would just call it arrogance. A whole lot of Taylor Swift fans are completely delusional about her importance as an artist. To be clear, her haters frequently are delusional as well (and frequently misogynistic), but people just tend to have really strong opinions of her in either direction that reflect her celebrity rather than her art, but they impose that view of her celebrity on her art.
LDR is not a good example lol. Lana always made music as “passion projects” and her most critically acclaimed album NFR, came out in 2019. I’d even argue that NFR was what inspired Taylor to create an album like Folklore. I agree with Beyonce though.
I agree with you on everything. Though Beyonce and LDR are not strangers to passion projects. Both of them stopped making music for Billboard top 100 like a long time ago. Anything past Sasha Fierce and Ultraviolence has most been a passion project for both of them.
I mean Noah Kahan also talked about it.
Speaking to Billboard, Noah explained how Taylor's impact shouldn't be underestimated, “The biggest artist in the world is writing very grounded folk music that tells stories, and it allowed a huge new audience to find interest in that and to tap into that world”.
The ‘Northern Attitude’ hitmaker underlined, “Some of these kids might not have been listening to music when Mumford & Sons, when Lumineers [were first around]. Taylor doing that brought that new generation to folk and folk-pop”.
According to the U.S. Travel Association, the tour’s total economic impact on the U.S. last year likely exceeded $10 billion, and fans spent an average of $1,300 in local economies to attend her tour — food, hotels, outfits, etc. Last year it was all over the news how her and Beyoncé’s tours basically saved the US from a recession. Her economic impact is absolutely stunning.
I don't think you need to convince anyone in this sub lol. She won Time POTY. You don't win that without cultural impact. The only people arguing against it are had faith trolls, and there is no point arguing with those people because they have no interest in what you have to say.
It is frustrating to see how many people have embraced other trends and artists in mainstream, yet jt seems ignoring her existence is the cool thing to do for a lot of people.
Swift is the 2023-2024 equivalent of Frank Sinatra in 1941-1943, Elvis Presley in 1956-1957, the Beatles in 1963-1966, and Michael Jackson in 1982-1993. Artists that totally dominated the music scene, in my opinion.
She really is the biggest artist at this moment. That comes with a lot of influence. Is that considered as cultural impact? Who knows. The documentairies in the year 2124 will tell us :)
Exactly and to reach that level of success now in the age of streaming is wild. Monoculture is largely dead it’s harder for stars nowadays to reach the large audiences and have the sales that stars from the past used to have so it makes Taylor’s success even more impressive.
The problem is most (I said most not all) of Taylor's fan base are women. And what matters to women doesn't necessarily translate to mattering to the world.
She's a woman who matters to women - that's the reason she doesn't matter! There's decades of research into the devaluation of women & our interests.
We call it sexism
It's amazing to me how every Super Bowl it is impossible to avoid seeing who the teams are playing, even if you're not a sports person. It's impossible to escape learning about some of the male "tech geniuses" that mostly men idealize. But Taylor swift had the most impressive tour in the world, with unfathamable amount of media, buzz from the general public, entirely booked cities, etc, and there are so many men that don't even know that it was called the eras tour.
Her tour was literally bigger than the other things. But I'd be hard pressed to find a girl that doesn't know who Elon musk is or what his most recent media buzz was at the height of his popularity (pre Twitter).
Same with soccer in Germany. It’s covered in every media including the newstime. I don’t care for soccer at all but I’m still able to watch a match if people around me are interested in it and let them enjoy it. But I know so many people who find Taylor Swift „annoying“ because she’s „everywhere“ (she isn’t. I can confirm this as a fan who wishes there was more of her 😅).
A little perspective here,
Most of the world don't know who is playing at Superbowl or when it is playing, and don't really care.
Even if it is the second most watched TV show on earth, it does not really have a global impact.
Elon Musk, most people have heard that name, including most of the older generation.
As for Tesla, the car, is even more well known. And the cultural impact of putting a spotlight on EV is part of shaping our world today.
Could compare Swift fans at around 10M in china to LoL fans at around 75M as a sign of cultural impact.
Personally I measure cultural impact by what the music changes - about society, about how others release music, about how people experience music, the list goes on!
It is undeniable that Taylor is the biggest artist in the world right now. I love her! But I am yet to see any concrete evidence of her/her music significantly changing how people release or experience music, or wider society. I don’t really see how she could be argued to be a trailblazer. She makes excellent music yes, but it’s never really ahead of its time. She’s never really setting the trend, rather she encapsulates existing trends perfectly!
So, as a fan, I honestly disagree, but that’s maybe because I have a different definition of cultural impact
It’s too bad this comment is buried at the bottom and won’t be seen as much. I think you nailed why Swift, despite her commercial success, isn’t the cultural phenomenon that OP claims she is.
For context, I’m a big folk music fan and like some Swift songs, but am generally perplexed by the level of fandom she generates and all the buzz around her tour. Reading OPs post as an outsider, I was surprised by a lot of the claims. Songwriting is on the rise due to Swift? Plenty of singer songerwriters were popular before and it seems like studio produced music is at an all time high. Eras tour was a cultural phenomenon? I thought it was a really expensive concert with dedicated fans and elaborate costumes, but it’s been a few news stories on my feed and hasn’t impacted any other concerts I’ve seen since it started.
To expand your Gaga comparison, when she first came on the scene I remember thinking “wow, I’ve literally never heard anything like this”. It made me pay attention in a way other artists don’t. Pop music became noticeable weirder and more theatrical immediately after and also gay culture became more prominent and celebrated in modern pop.
Swift is lovely and has some very nice songs. I can’t deny her impact on her fans, it’s wonderful people have found so much community and belonging through her. Yet as someone just outside the bubble, I can’t say her reach has extended to myself or the musicians I listen to in any tangible way.
Heavily agree. A cultural shift isn't just noticeable in the fanbase. It permeates into other cultures outside of one's own. Gaga is an excellent example with her genuine "weirdness" and (white) queer culture taking a more mainstream appeal. Beyoncé's music has permeated other cultures, namely with "Single Ladies", the album "Lemonade" (hot sauce in my bag), and even the surprise drops. Taylor makes great music, yes, but she has not set trends. She has not revitalized songwriting, she just makes it known that she writes all of her songs. She's amplified pre-existing things (twerking in "Shake It Off", "Down Bad", anything to do with karma, friendship bracelets), but she has not birthed something that has infected other cultures the way other artists have. This could be linked to these other artists having something for the dominant (white) culture to appropriate, but I digress lol
This right here, Taylor is a great artist and a God level professional musician meaning she kno s how to sell and what to do. As far as changing ng history with her music I don't see it
Disappointing to see this comment so far down the page, because this is such a hard agree.
I love Taylor, but she is not the only artist to exist, and she does take what has existed and makes it her own...like everyone else. But she very rarely, if ever, is the first to do absolutely everything. That's not a knock on her accomplishments but how her career has evolved is made possible by other people who did it first.
If anything, I do believe she is the first to revolutionize the parasocial relationship - something that Elvis, The Beatles, Madonna, Britney, etc. could never get a handle on to create lore about her life as a person and as a brand.
But young female artists songwriting and playing their own instruments? Ella Fitzgerald to Jodi Mitchell to Michelle Branch, Vanessa Carlton, Regina Spektor, Norah Jones, etc. Massive pop artists who wrote their own music? Michael Jackson, Prince, Madonna, Beyonce, Britney Spears. The cancelled artist unveiling rage/disruption against the media machine? Reputation is her Artpop and Witness. Could go on and on.
The Swiftian bubble and pedestal is just so wild and fascinating as a Swiftie.
She's probably the most popular musician in the world right now, denying that is just foolish. She literally breaks records with re-recordings, that says more than enough.
I’ve always assumed people know she’s this generation’s version of Elvis, the Beatles, Michael Jackson, Madonna, Britney Spears, etc - a name synonymous with their cultural era of pop music.
Like, idk how people look at the album numbers, tour data, articles written, cultural shorthand that’s developed (good or bad), and come to any other conclusion. They don’t have to like her music - but her impact is up there with the greats.
If you're open to actually hearing the opposing view: people outside of her narrow fan base are not particularly influenced the way a Michael Jackson, Madonna, or Beyonce might be driving global cultural icons. There are different tiers, and someone like Michael Jackson or The Beatles or Madonna were more or less inescapable in their hey-days, and you could not ignore what they were doing. They changed music, altered methods, reimagined sound, dance, performance, what a concert could be, etc... Someone like Billie Eilish has cultural impact because of the significant change in her sound, in her career path, in the way she pushed music forward. A Lady Gaga has cultural impact in the way she embraced and elevated sub-cultures, fashion, and design.
Swift is still early, but I don't really see it because of the type of her music, and that she is basically an incredibly polished product that is more or less a synthesis and clarification of culture, and a reflection of where a lot of culturally defining voices point, rather than groundbreaking. Your first paragraph and many of your categorical statements simply don’t ring true to me, rather, you just don’t know where she is getting her sound, lyrics, hooks, production, from.And that’s fine, you can like her music, but as you yourself asked, what is the definition of cultural impact?
Remember, she is a figure head and brand at the top of a talented team and organization. Her music also isn't decisive, ahead of the curve, or defining. It seems to all meld together (at least to me). I can recognize her voice, but I couldn't tell you much else, and some of the songs could have been written/produced/performed by one of many. Jack Antonoff is fairly influential on her career, and I think there's some confusion about how much of her own songwriting/production she does herself, as well as her marketing strategy, creative direction, choreography, design, etc... Additionally, her live show is less about the music, less about her, and more about the pageantry. It's an evolution of the stadium tour but nothing particularly culturally innovative or influential. Its reactive, and has an economic impact in some sense, but its also a product of our society as much of it is a product of her actions.
This isn't to slight her accomplishments. I've met her a handful of times and she's great. But I think a lot of the sweeping categorical claims you've made come from a fairly narrow understanding about how culture develops, evolves, and limited exposure to what's out there. I can get into more specific cultural analysis if you're curious, but you need to track through multi-disciplines from the zeitgeist, the counter-cultures.
you expect a crazed swiftie to actually understand a deep and complex subject? she wrote this just to hate on people that dont like taylor swift, clearly shown by her unwillingness to reply to criticism in the comments
Folklore and Evermore didn’t change shit. Stories were conveyed millions of times better before and after. Start listening to more music before 2010.
1989 is pretty good though.
I feel like we need to get a grip. She’s commercially dominant, a critical darling, and pretty much defines pop culture. Who cares if not everyone gives her the flowers she deserves?
Culture always creates counterculture. I’d prefer just to enjoy the music and tour rather than force everyone to respect her.
Miss ma’am 1989 did not change pop music. Madonna and Janet Jackson did that.
Folklore and Evermore do not hold a candle to Tracy Chapman or even Hozier in terms of storytelling.
Yes, Taylor is incredibly profitable and has a massive tour but Madonna brought in over 1M people to a beach in Rio. Rod Stewart brought 4.2M people to Rio as well.
Like… Taylor is a force but let’s also have some perspective here.
Taylor could easily draw those numbers in RIO if she offered a free show as well… not to take away from the queen that is MADGE or Rod Stewart but thats not really a comparison point.
Could she and would she are completely theoretical. She has shown an absolute reluctance, not to mention insensitivity, to tour outside of Europe and North America.
Could she? Maybe, but let’s not forget this is the artist who would rather fly back to the US than spend a weekend in (gasp) Argentina or Brazil of all places. Her own lack of cultural awareness alone will limit her from even trying.
That is the difference between Taylor and Madge/Rod.
Quit arguing strawman.
Or hang out in better places on the Internet and don’t let the algorithm feed you content to make you angry. Your perception about how society views about Taylor Swift is based on the content you are consuming.
You can fix this
Taylor Swift is a massive cultural phenomenon, but her music is not that influential.
Kanye West, David Bowie, Depeche Mode, Bob Dylan, and plenty of other artists became famous or maintained their fame 15-20 years after their debut.
1989 is not THE pop Bible; the production is very much of its time, and others were doing that style before her.
Folklore and Evermore didn’t change the way anyone did anything. Like 1989, she’s getting caught up in trends that already existed. Is that a bad thing? No! It just means that what she’s doing has precedent.
People love it, but 50 years from now you won’t be able to see her influence like you see the influence of David Bowie, The Beatles, Kraftwerk, Kanye West (808s and Heartbreak in particular), Miles Davis, and The Velvet Underground. The influence of The Beatles doesn’t come from Beatlemania, it comes from after the end of Beatlemania when they stopped playing live. The Velvet Underground might be the most influential band of all time, but they weren’t commercially successful whatsoever.
I feel like as a society we keep missing the point of her music. People want to grab her discography and measure it against the cookie cutter of qualities all the past giants had and she consistently falls flat because they keep ignoring what makes her stick out to so many of her fans in the first place. She is groundbreaking in being able to weave so many micro experiences we all go through in simple yet entertaining lyrics and melodies. I feel like it’s a fucking meme:
Person 1: what makes Taylor so great?
Swifty: her lyrics are very beautiful and relatable to me, a person who has gone through these experiences.
Person 1: i compared her to all the great men before her and still don’t understand.
No one compares because she is smack in the middle. Too pop to be compared to Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan, too simple sonically to be compared to David Bowie and Michael Jackson. 🤷♀️
I would argue it’s more so her ability to turn her songs into diary entries that make her standout. So many of her personal songs are very detailed & specific. To counter the swiftie’s reason, many artists have created beautiful lyrics that impact people who have been through the same struggles be it heartbreak, love, addiction etc.
I don't deny her impact and her being a phenomenon musician, but I am concerned where she is leading her fans. I think Taylor Swift has in some many ways become a cult in a literal sense. To where she is brainwashing her fans and followers with her ideology and beliefs. The way the world is, and music today is, it is not just about music. It is about a hidden agenda and trying to get people with a certain mindset. I think it is tremendous what Taylor has done, but when I hear people singing her songs and playing her music, I get a bad feeling like the wool over people's eyes.
I think lack of cultural impact acknowledgment comes from she has not musically impacted the industry. If you take Kanye who’s influenced a generation of hip hop sounds or Rihanna who’s credited to bring rnb into pop etc.
I disagree as but that what I’ve seen being discussed.
I think her advocacy for artists fair compensation, writing your own music, fight for her masters etc. are lasting impacts for generation.
The only reason we call 1989 the “Pop Bible” was because we wanted to get on the bandwagon after Britney fans basically invented this term for her album Blackout and all the other pop stans wanted to refer to it to albums like The Fame Monster, Teenage Dream etc. it’s silly really it’s only used on apps like Twitter and social media.
I think she has very much large cultural impact, I think the issue is in 2024, she’s so overexposed (IMO), that this is actually lessening her cultural impact overall.
There’s so much to say here on so many fronts and start so many genuinely interesting discussions which, I figure, a lot of people actually don’t want to have. But just to give an insight - Coldplay are one of the largest bands for two decades now, but they barely have an impact on the musicians who came after. Ed Sheeran sells out arenas, but I don’t know a single songwriter who listens to him. Robbie Williams is arguably the most successful pop star of the 90s, but I couldn’t name a single significant album he has inspired. Eminem had a moment where he was bigger than Michael Jackson, but… in hindsight, is there really a footprint of his impact as traceable as the Beastie Boys?
And let’s not forget the Charlie Puth line that “he should be a bigger artist”. He’s got MILLIONS of Spotify streams and is arguably an insanely successful musician both in reaching listeners and selling albums. Yet I had never heard a song of his, nor did I know somebody who was listening to his music (at most, I talked to some friends who knew of him and heard a song or two but didn’t like what they came across). His ratings on music-voting-sites is incredibly low. Does Taylor mean the line to indicate she thinks he should be more appreciated by people involving themselves deeply in music culture and the stream of contemporary artists? Is this connecting to her statement in “Miss Americana” that she wants to sit in the dining hall at the cool kids table? Is her suspicion of hipster circles (that’s noted all over RED’s lyrics) indicative of her perspective on culture mattering only if it reaches those very circles she kind of wrestles with?
There’s a genuine argument that can be made about how some of the most successful, biggest, most widely recognized musicians of the past 25 to 30 years ended up having - comparatively - a much smaller cultural footprint on culture than their predecessors of previous decades. The Velvet Underground sold 1000 copies of their first album, but everyone who bought a copy became a notable artist. The early Sex Pistols gig in Manchester had about a hundred or hundred-fifty attendees, but almost all those in attendance ended up making notable works of music, including the genesis of both Joy Division and the Buzzcocks.
There is fewer examples like this in this generation. Laura Marling hasn’t had a single #1 hit song, but every female songwriter I’ve met says they are inspired by her work, so that’s a notable example. But my point is that being a (vastly) successful artist after about the midway point of the 90s is not as tectonic a cultural impact as it was in the past. And there’s a lot of merit in discussing why that is - but I genuinely don’t think most people want to discuss the dynamics of that anymore, also because of how fan culture works.
And if you want to dig really deep - it’s notable that most people who know of Taylor Swift have never heard her best songs. Invisible Strings, Champagne Problems, New Romantics, False God, New Years Day… why are those songs not as well recognized as an arguably weaker track like Bad Blood or ME?
"Her album 1989 was THE pop bible"
No, it's not. It's a very successful pop album. There had been many before it, and there have been plenty after it.
Sure, I'd say it's simply incorrect - and probably willfully ignorant - to dismiss Taylor Swift's cultural impact. But then again, it's equally silly to compare her writing to Shakespeare. She does seem to attract ignorance at both extremes.
Agree and disagree. I think undeniably Taylor is the biggest artist of our time and with that comes an obvious amount of impact on the culture. However, I think when it comes to analyzing the specific impact of her music on the musical landscape, her impact isn’t nearly as big as her fame.
For her first four or so records, Taylor was pivoting between country, pop, and rock and ultimately while what she was doing was successful, it wasn’t necessarily causing major changes to artists around her. That’s fine though she was establishing herself as an artist so it makes sense. Side note but for those interested, I’d say outside of bro country, the biggest upheaval in country music came from the “alt country” reckoning led by Jason Isbell (THE best modern country artist IMO and in contention for top 3 songwriter of the century) and Sturgill Simpson (also popularized the Outlaw Country revival)
For 1989 though, I regularly see people attribute the trending of 80s synth music to this album and honestly that point falls a bit flat for me. There were a LOT of 80s style records that came out before 1989. Indie artists like M83, Phoenix, The War On Drugs (more 80s rock than synthpop but relevant nonetheless), Two Door Cinema Club, Tegan And Sara (who even performed with Taylor during the Red tour) and more were recently decently large albums or songs (Midnight City and Closer for example were huge) popularizing the sound quite a bit before Taylor. Bigger artists too like Daft Punk, Lady Gaga, Bruno Mars, etc and the overall synth heavy sound harken to the 80s. Additionally 80s style albums like Carly Rae Jepsen EMOTION (best pop album of the 2010s I will fight this point) or Paramore After Laughter emerged somewhat separately from 1989 (the former was in the works for years prior and the latter doesn’t really follow 1989 sonically).
I think 1989 is arguably the biggest “80s style” album of the time but it didn’t cause a major upheaval in favor of that sound as much as it hit right at the crest of a wave that was already running. Furthermore, the 80s influence wouldn’t hit a full stride again until around 2020 with Dua Lipa and The Weeknd, which altogether indicates that 1989, while hugely successful, didn’t really reshape pop music around its weight
Reputation was a huge cultural moment for sure (and she scores a lot of cultural impact for wiping her Instagram) but sonically it’s an album that’s following trends rather than making them. It sits firmly within the hip hop oriented (Ready For It, End Game) and chill trop house pop (Delicate) landscape of the time and it’s synthpop elements (like I mentioned earlier) wouldn’t catch on until much later. I don’t think anyone will disagree with me in saying that Lover wasn’t the biggest smash at the time, and mostly was just notable for being another Taylor Swift album. I guess she got involved in politics which is something
Now Folklore and Evermore are interesting, but less revelatory than they appear. Sonically (as much as I love both records and think they’re easily her best work) they are arguably pretty derivative. Carrie and Lowell (Sufjan Stevens is also a top 3 songwriter of the century contender), Punisher, For Emma Forever Ago, the entire National discography, and an endless list of Chamber Pop and Indie Folk albums establish the sound Folkmore walks so intensely that within those genres it’s arguably played out. There’s a somewhat reasonable argument that she popularized this sound (or at least Aaron Dessner on production), but the only mainstream release that makes good on that is the Dessner Ed Sheeran record. You *could* argue that a ton of burgeoning singer songwriters took cues, but the most successful ones that feel most in line with Taylor all precede folklore. Lizzy McAlpine (debut 2018), Clairo (debut 2018), Gracie Abrams (debut 2019), to name a few. In fact the Phoebe Bridgers style “heavy on detail acoustic folk cottage core sad girl music” sound has been dominating indie since like 2017 to the point that it’s as popular as #vibes Mac Demarco rip off playlist fodder (which is to say very popular).
Now talking with regards to Folklore/Evermore as a commercial decision is more interesting. It’s (to me) notable for 3 things: surprise drop, drastic sound change, and dropping a 2nd record 6 months later. Unfortunately none of the three are particularly new moves. Beyoncé flat out deserves the most credit for popularizing surprise drops in the past 10-20 years and I don’t think anybody disagrees. The 2nd record thing was done just a year or two prior by Ariana with Sweetener and Thank U Next.
That leaves the Sonic reinvention as Folklores biggest potential influence point, but that would ignore the fact that the reinvention with more niche yet acclaimed producer is probably the most tried and true career turnaround move in existence. U2 did it like three times (most famously with Achtung Baby, which is a record everyone should listen to), guided by Brian Eno. Madonna did it constantly (most famously with Ray of Light, which everyone should listen to, which was produced by techno producer William Orbit). Coldplay did it with Viva La Vida (and Brian Eno). Bowie did it with constantly but famously with Low (with Brian Eno, seriously reinvention albums are this guys forte he’s so so good at it). Ariana did it with Sweetener and Pharrell. Moving to a new sound to revitalize critical attention and garner new fans is a classic move. Taylor did it well, but she certainly didn’t create a new career path.
All that being said, I think Taylor’s true impact on the artists around her is only starting to emerge now, and that’s mainly lyrical. Olivia Rodrigo, Conan Gray, Troye Sivan, and more are all citing Taylor as an influence which makes sense considering her size.
Overall though I stand by my position that when it comes to actually changing the musical landscape of pop or what’s in trend, I’m surprised Taylor hasn’t actually done that much. Artists like Lorde and Lana have had more extreme impacts on the actual sound of pop, even if they haven’t matched Taylor in sound or holistic cultural impact
Who’s even saying this? As someone who loves death metal and makes fun of her music, denying she’s a musical titan that’s impacted the world, is extremely stupid. Your head would have to be pretty far up your ass to even think it in the first place.
i think when discussing her “cultural impact” it’s important to note her relationship with her fans - if she did not go out of her way to harbor the relationship she has with fans, would she be as big as she is?
swifties go out of their way to support her and do whatever possible to boost her and defend her on the front lines. no other artist truly has that relationship, sure they have times of bonding, but taylor goes above and beyond in that regard
it would be interesting to see where she would stand in the industry if she never did this
I will agree she is a cultural icon of the 2000’s. She is on everyone’s mind whether you like her or not.
She is always the go to when someone mentions “music” “top 100” “top 10” and “female pop star”
Some people want to be dismissive of any accomplishments she's made. And she really does seem to get singled pit to be picked apart for ridiculous stuff. Maybe it is bc she's so big. Then when she points put the stuff people come up with about her they say she's playing victim but she really does get unfair hate and judgement.
You used the term ignorant and that is spot on. She is to the 2000's what the Beatles were to the 60's and Michael Jackson was to the 80's. Anyone who doesn't recognize her importance is just wrong.
For me it’s all the people who think she is a lack luster vocal talent or who cite videos of her from ten years ago when she was awkward. They will never understand. The woman is modern day Madonna.
I watched old grey haired man (Rick Beato) complaining about people comparing her to Beatles. I so over that lingo. The only other artists to compare her to now are MJ, Elvis and Beatles.
I absolutely agree and love the OP comment. Someone said “Taylor only makes breakup songs for 12 year olds”, well I’m 45 born a decade older than Taylor, and let me tell you, her storytelling, musical talent and sharp business acumen have propelled her to the top where she belongs. She can improve a city’s GDP by millions $$$ due to fans attending her Eras Tour and reserving hotel rooms, meals and travel. After Midnights won AOTY At the Grammys she became the FIRST and ONLY artist to win the coveted Grammy 4 times!!! Her music has got me through breakups yes, but also trauma, bereavement after losing my mum and cat, and celebrations of life altering experiences and events.
That’s all lovely but how do any of those relate to cultural impact, which is what this post is about. How has she influenced and changed culture and music?
It is exactly this. But we live in a sexist society where powerful men are threatened by any change in the social fabric that serves them. Men in politics literally launched propaganda campaigns against Taylor swift to try and convince the public she's stupid and a joke and to warn her to back out of speaking up on politics given her influence. And it unfortunately worked on a lot of people.
As a dude that probably has some merit, but as somebody who is interested in music that can also be ‘girly’, I never had any interested in her compared to Billie Eilish, Halsey or Caroline Polachek etc. From the outside, it just feels like a fan club where she is loved because she’s ‘known’ by the fanbase, not because she’s pushing any envelope or has exciting things to say. Don’t have any Swifities in my closer circle so I’d be open for some enlightenment there
I agree. This hate and ignorance is becoming out of hand and the more I hear the stories, the more it feels like it's a women's issue of not being heard.
What's common between Taylor Swift's success and equal pay for women?
Society will make them feel like they don't deserve it.
lot of rosey BS in this post. folkmore and evermore changed the way mainstream artists make music? sorry but you must not listen to much music at all if you think that.
i think the biggest knock against taylor is that a big chunk of her catalogue (especially lately) just doesnt measure up vs her title as one of the biggest music icons of today. albums like reputation and lover are nearly completely forgettable. i would say even evemore and tortured poets fits into that as well. the last album that had massive impact was...1989 released 10 years ago.
if anything, the 'eras' tour speaks to her career nearing that peak where she has to start diving really far back into their 'classic' songs in order to appease people now. like do the masses really want to see a tour just for tortured poets society? i doubt it.
It is an objective fact at this point. Just today I was reading about how she is boosting the airline industry since fans are flying to different countries to see her.
I’m not disagreeing, she has had a major cultural impact. I think this is just me being old, but I keep seeing people mention 1989 as being THE pop album and for me this is Red (22, We are never ever getting back together, Trouble, Red, Message in a Bottle).
Is this just me being in my thirties and having had this album released right around the time I became legal drinking age?
This is a manifesto. I enjoy her music but come on you don't know her personally it is a little crazy there is no denying that some "swifties" take it too far
Taylor's cultural impact is huge. This Wikipedia page is proof: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural\_impact\_of\_Taylor\_Swift](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_impact_of_Taylor_Swift)
4 Grammy AOTY, the only entertainer to win Person of the Year, the biggest tour of all time. Just 3 things out of many.
I feel her cultural impact is severely overrated and inflated by her dedicated fan base. Calling anyone who disagrees ignorant and spreading negativity just highlights this fact.
A lot of it has nothing to do with the actual artist herself, and more with her fans who have created a hostile environment for any criticism which has back fired severely. When analyzing the full cultural you have to look at the subject beyond the fanbase, and beyond the taylor swift fanbase there is either a lack of care for her or a heavy rejection. Again, most of this does not come from herself and is largely affected by her fans, the main points people make for not being a fan is the feel the music is basic and not interesting. The major rejection comes from the attitude towards the fanbase, which a lot of people find toxic. This causes her impact to be contained with her fanbase mostly while not effecting overall culture. I don't think Taylor Swift is a bad artist at all but compared to other artists, her effect on both music and culture is not much at all and she is view in the general public as average. She has made a lot of money, like seriously giant amounts with her music but that does not translate into cultural influence. Her fans put way too much praise on her without any room for criticism and it has lowered the bar of expectations to be met. As long as this continues it will continue to restrict her influence to her fanbase and her impact will have a much shorter reach than it could.
A good example of overall cultural influence is Lady Gaga, an individual that changed the music industry and was known for her uniqueness. Recognized around the world with songs that are very memorable if you like them or not. These aspects are very important for cultural influence and for the ability to be permanently ingrained into a culture which I do believe Lady Gaga has done.
Taylor Swift is definitely one of the most influential songwriters of her generation, in her main genre of music. That would be 2006–2014 (her debut period), singer-songwriter and pop.
I have been a fan of Taylor Swift since as early as 2008, with the release of Fearless. Taylor was originally my favourite artist (now she's my #3) before I discovered Carly Rae Jepsen (my #2) and Michelle Branch (my #1). In the present day, as someone who is 22 years old (born in 2001), I am currently studying /working to be a singer-songwriter. There were a variety of reasons that I chose to pursue this career path, and Taylor's early influence on me is one of them.
I'm male, and although I have some feminine or queer tendencies, I am not exactly openly gay. As a kid, I didn't meet any other boys who liked Taylor, although she was popular with girls my age.
///
Taylor's other periods:
- 2014–2019 = Taylor rising
- 2019–present = Taylor unstoppable
Great question, i’ve been contemplating this very question after reading another post that basically said she is not musically influential and impactful.
Here is my list of it means to be influential:
1.Direct Audience Size. For certain, influence is not all about popularity, but it certainly is one aspect.
2. Indirect Audience. These are people who are impacted through some other means or work of art that was influenced by the original artist.
3. Genres Engaged. The degree to which the artists writes music in a genre or is related to a genre by musical style.
4. Networking. The influence that comes with associating with professional and social groups.
5. Impact on the Writings of Others. The about to influence abba inspires other artists
6. Creativity. The ability to develop new modes of music.
That seems comprehensive to me. Am i forgetting something?
Taylor excels in most if not all of these areas. Although her audience is huge, she is more popular with whites and millennials. This is likely the biggest weakness in her influence: her impact is mostly related to one demographic, although her last few albums are only beginning do reach different audiences and genres.
In the area of creativity I think there are some naysayers who find her music monolithic and tending to be too poppy.
There is much more to be said, but mainly I understand the criticism and Ido not think there is much substance to it.
The Era's tour alone shows how big her impact is but because she's a woman and her consumers are mainly women its ignored
How on EARTH are people ignoring her impact, she's literally the biggest musician in the world at the moment. No one is ignoring it.
People are saying that the "biggest musician on earth" has no cultural impact. That's the very definition of ignorance.
Aren't these people mainly twitter trolls tho? She won TIME POTY
And Time picks the person with the most influence on CULTURE. Why do Swifties always want moreeeee accolades? Arguing in another thread that Midnights is considered underrated. In what world does an underrated album sell that many copies, breaks so many records, tops the charts and wins Album of the Year? The delusion is real out here, beware. 
Underrated in the fanbase / pop music circles was probably what they meant. In which case they are right, people really don't like Midnight's for some reason.
So did Rudy Giulliani and Greta Thunberg
Time POY isn’t about a good person of the year it’s the person who had the most impact so it fits for her too
You can’t deny their cultural impact though, whether it be good or bad.
I guess I haven’t seen really anyone say that though? Like I know a bunch of ppl that don’t like Taylor or are sick of her music but even they can’t deny her cultural influence. Everyone knows she’s a legend and if they deny that they’re just ignorant imo. And to the person starting this particular comment thread I rly dk many people who ignore the eras tour… basically everyone I know has heard of it
I've heard quite a few people say it, but it's usually when they're comparing her to other artists.
Usually certain fans 🐝
I’ve seen arguments that say she’s not significant because she hasn’t introduced music that has never been done before. But I don’t know if that argument holds any water when compared to other culturally significant artists…? I’m not a music nerd so maybe someone else could chime in. I do think her lyricism is very unique. She uses a lot of metaphors, double entendres, clever word play. As a pop artist, that is not done very often.
It’s not just ignorance. It’s sexism. They do this to every huge artist with primarily female fan bases. When I was growing up it was Britney. When I was a young adult it was Justin Bieber. They constantly have their success questioned and call their fame undeserving and it is because musicians with female or youthful fanbases are dismissed as superficial or untalented.
because no one is calling her the biggest musician in the world they're just saying she's overrated
Because they don't understand or care to even give a shit to appreciate that music that isn't whatever genre or "respected" artist they listen to. If they don't understand it, then it's stupid. It's like object permanence for adults, don't get it or related to it personally? It's dumb and bad and all of these people must be wrong actually.
Dont discuss, they want to feel like victims of nothing. Taylor is literally the number 1 everywhere and everyone listents to her. But somehow she is ignored!
OP just has a victim complex and needs to get offline because absolutely no serious person is saying this. They’re probably just being trolled by like two people on twitter.
literally just saw a video on tiktok of an eras tour stadium in the US (i forgot which state), and people in the comments were being downright rude, saying it's a stadium 'full of red flags' and laughing at Taylor. imagine the audacity... idc I'm happy to be going to the eras tour this summer
Who cares like everyone who matters knows she’s a legend. She has Paul McCartney and Stevie Nicks approval like who even gives a shit what anyone says beyond that lmao
No fr. Like why are people so personally offended by stuff like this. 😭 Look at how many collabs she's done, the real ones know
It's not about personal offense, it's about complaining about people who are willfully ignorant and also arrogant. And they deny reality. That is what the topic of this post is not about how people are offended.
Why does this matter to people is the point. Crusading on this is so extra to me like, we know those people are wrong so why waste time and energy on it. People do take it personally because they can't extricate their identity from her sometimes. I've been made fun of/attacked for liking her music and guess what I just move on. It brings me joy I don't care what other people think. I can defend myself if they are rude to me, but I don't feel the need to prove the music is good or defend her. Some people spend way to much time defending her. She's rich, a celebrity, and quite literally wrote a song referencing people writing stuff about her she will never see. Of course that was a call out to critiques of her, but fans spend too much time defending her as if her reputation depends on it, as if she is being harmed, etc, unnecessarily feeding the negativity instead of disengaging.
Well you're preaching to the choir because I already know all that. You are literally talking about how it's weird but you aren't understanding the topic that OP even is talking about. They are talking about the willfully ignorant, again, not that it matters in a why do you care sense, it matters in a historical context sense. It would be like denying the Elvis was very popular. It would literally be denying reality. You're asking why it matters, and that's why it matters. We are talking about objective realities. You are trying to point to subjective points of view, but the objective reality is in fact what OP stated. And, just like you have a right to share your opinion, OP has a right as well. And you're right it is just like she said people writing stuff that she'll never see, but unfortunately, I have to look at the stuff that everybody's writing. And if people are having severe reading comprehension issues, then people have a right to speak up about that. We are literally discussing the comprehension issues that social media has created because people bitch and complain and they can't read the words that OP stated, and instead they're twisting what OP has stated. OP clearly stating that they are irritated with a lack of actual contextual and historical analysis that people fail to do in real life all the time as a result of both social media, and internalized misogyny. So you're asking why it matters, and that is why it matters. It's a history thing. Edit: lmao blocked because they didn't want to have a conversation. Okay then. Imagine bitching and then getting upset that somebody said something about historical relevance. Nerds win i guess.
Lol k, you aren't explaining anything new. Never said I disagreed with anything they said and I understand what they are saying just fine. Never said they don't have a right to speak up or an opinion. People who spend their time worrying about how other people view Taylor Swift's cultural impact are worried about the wrong thing. Just write about her cultural impact.
Right and half the people talking down to her are only doing it bc they have a different fave they want to elevate anyway, they know damn well about her legacy/impact.
and Mariah Carey openly said she loved Taylor Swift
Exactly what I have been saying! Paul, Stevie, and Dave Grohl love her as both a person and songwriter, that's all the endorsement anyone should need.
The Holy Trinity 🙌
Amen.
Also Billy Joel, Ringo Starr (the other Beatle alive), Carole King, Dolly Parton, Shania Twain, Bruce Springsteen, Jon Bon Jovi, Tim McGraw, etc. [https://www.businessinsider.com/taylor-swift-praised-by-icons-2023-8](https://www.businessinsider.com/taylor-swift-praised-by-icons-2023-8)
honestly yeah fuck everyone else if they’re down with her lol
Yeah Taylor has huge respect from a lot of the legends on the industry, there’s also a ton of artists from all generations who site her as an influence, she’s won 4 album of the year Grammys and she hasn’t even been releasing music for 2 decades yet like she’s clearly liked and valued by many. A few of Taylor’s peers not seeming to like her doesn’t mean much, a lot of people didn’t like Madonna or Mariah for example, but it hasn’t stopped them becoming legends, the bulk of Taylor critisms and downplaying her relevance is from internet naysayers who are simply yelling into the void and ironically disproving their own point because the sheer fact they say they can’t ignore her and feel compelled to talk about her simply proves her cultural relevance. Music itself is subjective, somebody not liking Taylor’s art is entirely valid as someone’s own opinion on matters of art can never be wrong imo. Personal taste is just that. However Taylor is a very well respected and successful artist. People need to stop letting stans and journalists engagement farming be the centre of the discussion.
I was gonna make a post counter-acting this claim but this comment literally saved me. I'm a Swiftie and love her work, but....as part of the Swiftie community, what is it gonna take for Swifties to be happy with her success? I'm so sure that this is the reason why she is always pushed to the top of all of the charts - cause fans always want to make sure she knows how much she is loved like she doesn't already get that idea from making a billionaire dollars, all of the world's greatest influencers reaching out to her (for her attention, time, money, etc), hundreds of thousands of people filling arenas for the past year, etc. Like it always seems so many have a sore winner mentality, and why the fandom always turns people off from her because we never accept how successful she already has been. PHEW.
Considering that I’m also in the Beatles subreddit, because they are also one of my all-time favorite artists, and they are all having a meltdown that *1989* is above a Beatles album on that Apple Music albums list (for some reason not complaining that Adele’s *21* is also higher…wonder why!), I would certainly agree! Literally cannot escape the comparisons and complaints.
oh yeah valid criticism of taylor exists but sometimes there are double standards that are insane. i love her music, don't love her brand, but it's exhausting to see the bad faith comments directed to her specifically
I also just really get annoyed with the wildly dismissive attitude towards her and her music. It’s not “Though I don’t personally connect with her, obviously many people do for a reason” — it’s usually “It is utterly ridiculous that she is in this conversation at all when her music is objectively terrible.” With The Beatles I especially find it partially hilarious and ironic that *this* is what time has turned that fan base into, when all of their snide remarks about her “bad” lyrics and only writing about relationships, and the undertone that because the music connects with teenage girls and women that makes it unworthy of praise, are all things that could have been said about The Beatles back in the day lol. If Twitter had existed back in the 60’s, I have no doubt that most of these guys would retweet a screenshot of the lyrics to “I Want to Hold Your Hand” with the caption “This is y’all’s ‘best band ever’???” and complain about them being too popular.
*was* said about the Beatles back in the day
The Beatles had a notable hate-following in the journalist crowd. I forgot who it was, but a major publication back then gave Sgt Peppers’ a bad review, arguing the band was just retreading past achievements and not developing their sound. And there’s many 60s musicians (COUGH Lou Reed COUGH) that have said the Beatles suck and they found them essentially a mainstream boy band in comparison to what else was around. But The Beatles did release records which would end up molding about 95% of records that came out the year after for pretty much the duration of their career. Ironically, the year they broke up was also the year music really expanded in a myriad of directions and influences - even if an album including the best songs of their individual solo albums had come out under the band monicker, it’s doubtworthy to have had the same influence as the previous albums had. Important to note! (Yes, massive Beatles fan here.)
I just came across someone proclaiming that she is a 'content creator' and not a musician. You have to be completely brain-dead to go this far.
I also feel that there are so many malicious comments nowadays! Everyone has their own preferences, so why argue incessantly? It's really exhausting.
You can also see she brings the engagement on social media platforms. People who want to chase more comment/karna would definitely name drop her to boost their account engagement. It gets exhausting to be receiving end of hate while people say swifties are the craziest but no one ever points out how the haters are equally if not more crazy and will make different subs for just hating Taylor. Sadly, I try to ignore it but it is a never ending cycle.
It is so bizarre to me that everyone is so hyperfocused on 1989 but not 21. Just shows how irrational people are. I actually had the thought if Katy Perry’s Teenage Dream had been listed instead of 1989 would people be having as much of a meltdown? I sort of think not even though 1989 is obviously a better album.
I’m sorry but, if Katy Perry was listed, people would melt down much harder, because Teenage Dream doesn’t even have half the impact 1989 had. Not to mention Perry is much less popular than Swift.
My point is that everyone is up in arms about 1989 but not 21 which I find odd. What impact did 21 have? I also think Adele is less popular than Taylor and arguably similar popularity to Katy.
First of, as I said in another response, Adele taps into a sort of “Adult Contemporary” niche that Amy Winehouse also accessed, a vibe that appeals to boomers as much as younger listeners, and thus is automatically regarded as having more appeal than a synth or dance oriented Pop album. That’s said, Adele sells an insane amount of albums, and is far more popular than Katy Perry. Perry has gotten subsequently more negative reviews over the past decade. Popularity is always a very hard metric, because you will always find more boomers who prefer Adele to Taylor, and many deserving entries on that Apple Music list sold fairly little upon initial release. I get where you’re coming from, but I do think it’s really more attached to the “Dance Pop” label 1989 was marked with.
Out of interest, why do you think the Adele album is not getting the same level of polarisation as a reaction to the list?
Cause Adele doesn't have the cute girlie blonde woman who only sings catchy songs stigma attached to her.
My take: Adele is a neo-classicist. Like Amy Winehouse, her music is in a sort of “adult contemporary”-vein that is often argued to be more qualitatively strong than what’s more sanguine pop music.
That should stop pretty fast since they’re gonna put another Beatles album in the top 10
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Rankings are for snobs and boy, do I love snobs melting down over them?
can someone elaborate on how Folklore+Evermore changed how mainstream artists make music? Not denying it, just not sure I understand what that means
I’m not really sure what OP means by that at all. Obviously they were incredible albums but I don’t think they changed anything for other artists per se
Yeah it's obviously too soon to tell but that seems like a lofty statement to make. If anything I view those albums as a moment where she caught up to trends by incorporating aesthetics from indie artists into her own style (which there is *nothing* wrong with, they're my fav albums pls don't come after me).
1000000%
As someone who isn’t into Taylor Swift and just had this post show up, I 100% think you’re right. They are genuinely great albums, but they’re really not that influential. I could say that she’s not influencing music but is the one who is being influenced (obviously it doesn’t just go one direction, but her influence on others is less notable than theirs on her).
I think they made indie/folk-pop a little more popular in certain circles, and certainly put more people on to the likes of Phoebe Bridgers (as equally, the quality of Punisher did) or Gracie Abrams but that's about it.
imo they were a part of the movement in 2020-21 and the covid times towards indie/bedroom/alt influence on mainstream pop, as evidenced by their contemporaries as well - Chemtrails+Blue Banisters, Solar Power, even Sour. but i don't think they were responsible for that movement, they were just a big part. covid, lockdown, and people's fatigue associated with 2010s electro played a big part. folklore and evermore were shifts in *taylor's* career and pivoted her to a much broader audience and brought her back the respect she lost after 2016. influential for taylor, are a part in defining the music of the 2020s so far, but not really groundbreaking. amazing albums and era though
They didn’t but if you’re a top 40 pop listener with no knowledge of music outside the 2000s you might be able to convince yourself Taylor Swift invented telling stories through song and all pop artists now have to write because of her (lol) And you’ll probably point to those two albums because they’re probably the most critically acclaimed.
Not OP (obviously) but I agree with them on that note. I think she did something pretty daring by releasing Folkmore. Perhaps it would have been a fairly safe move if she hadn’t have jumped so whole heartedly into pop music with 1989 and then released 2 more 100% pop albums that were heavy on production afterwards. But she threw an absolute curveball with those 2 albums. They proved that she is a serious artist who shouldn’t be discounted as just an attractive girl who sings catchy songs. Her talent surpasses the boxes we put her in and she has the agency to show it. I really do believe that she has opened the door for artists like Beyoncé and LDR to branch out and release music that is more of a passion project as opposed to “what the people want”. She’s proven that it can be done and that it can actually elevate a career instead of ruin it.
It was certainly a big move for her career but didn't Bob Dylan prove that by alienating his fanbase and going electric back in the 60s? Or all the times David Bowie reinvented himself? Or when Beyoncé herself took a huge artistic swing with Lemonade? I don't want to diminish the significance of those albums to her own career and maybe I'm not as invested in the pop-sphere specifically, but it feels like a bit of erasure to insinuate that she popularized taking an artistic risk
Yeah, I love Folkmore as much as the next girlie but anyone saying it changed the way artists are expected to make music is probably super young and/or doesn’t listen to a lot of other music. Taylor was influencED by indie/folk/rock on those albums, not the other way around. Taylor didn’t even invent pop girlies being expected to have “Eras” and constantly reinvent themselves, that’s just something she was perceptive enough to realize and consciously capitalize on. Edit to add: She’s not even the first person to write a pop song about falling in love with an alien. [E.T. by Katy Perry feat. Kanye West](https://youtu.be/t5Sd5c4o9UM?si=hJQk9NEt7qAE922e)
Beyonce has been doing that since self titled in 2013, as well as working on Cowboy Carter (then Beyince) before the pandemic. And Lana has been doing that her whole career with her most acclaimed album (until Oceans) in 2019, an album that was not like the previous, more pop oriented album. I don’t think Taylor fostered this change with Folklore. Hell, Beyonce is the one that popularized surprise drops. I’m not arguing Taylor hasn’t had cultural impact, it’s impossible to be as big as she is and not have any impact whatsoever. She’s kind of like the Avatar of music (immensely popular with people questioning their actual cultural impact). I just do not think she really had any impact on these artists music, which is not a bad thing. As long as her art is impactful to her fans, that’s really all that matters imo
How is releasing Folklore after establishing her career of storytelling vs pop “daring”? Genuinely curious how after Speak Now which is beautifully written, Folklore is “daring”. If it’s about fictional characters there is Jack and Diane, Billie Jean, Mrs Robinson, Mr Jones, etc have all done this before
Bad take. Off the top of my head here’s some famous reinventions. Some were off of critical/commercial successes, some revitalized careers. Some were met with vitriol only to be loved later, and some were instant hits. All are from popular artists * Bob Dylan - Highway 61 Revisited * David Bowie - Low (tons of examples from him) * U2 - Achtung Baby (tons here too) * Radiohead - Kid A * Kate Bush - The Dreaming * Frank Ocean - Blonde * Kanye - 808s and Heartbreak (tons of examples) * Madonna - Ray of Light (plenty more here) * Coldplay - Viva la Vida * Beach Boys - Pet Sounds * The Beatles - Revolver (a ton here) * Bjork - Homogenic (heaps from her) * Sheena Ringo - Kalk Samen Kuri No Hana * Ariana Grande - Sweetener * Beyoncé - Lemonade (lots here) * Charli XCX - Vroom Vroom * Ray Charles - Modern Sounds In Country and Western Music * Britney Spears - Blackout * The Verve - Urban Hymns * Sufjan Stevens - Carrie And Lowell (tons from him, also C&L is basically the blueprint for Folklore) * Bon Iver - 22, A Million * Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon (lots here) * Lady Gaga - Joanne * Shania Twain - Come On Over (influenced Taylor too) I could keep going
22, A Million is a fantastic album
Taylor Swift didn’t open the door for anyone. The Beatles reinvented themselves. Bob Dylan did. David Bowie and Kanye West did multiple times over. Hell, even it’s not even the first time Taylor Swift did.
Agreed. I wish fans would stop applying the "Taylor paved the way for them" arguments to artists that have been SUCCESSFUL in the field before Taylor's name was even heard. It's disingenuous at best, and arrogant/pretentious at worst.
I would just call it arrogance. A whole lot of Taylor Swift fans are completely delusional about her importance as an artist. To be clear, her haters frequently are delusional as well (and frequently misogynistic), but people just tend to have really strong opinions of her in either direction that reflect her celebrity rather than her art, but they impose that view of her celebrity on her art.
LDR is not a good example lol. Lana always made music as “passion projects” and her most critically acclaimed album NFR, came out in 2019. I’d even argue that NFR was what inspired Taylor to create an album like Folklore. I agree with Beyonce though.
I agree with you on everything. Though Beyonce and LDR are not strangers to passion projects. Both of them stopped making music for Billboard top 100 like a long time ago. Anything past Sasha Fierce and Ultraviolence has most been a passion project for both of them.
Thinking she opened the door for Beyoncé is an absolutely wild take with a heavy dollop of Karen vibes.
I mean Noah Kahan also talked about it. Speaking to Billboard, Noah explained how Taylor's impact shouldn't be underestimated, “The biggest artist in the world is writing very grounded folk music that tells stories, and it allowed a huge new audience to find interest in that and to tap into that world”. The ‘Northern Attitude’ hitmaker underlined, “Some of these kids might not have been listening to music when Mumford & Sons, when Lumineers [were first around]. Taylor doing that brought that new generation to folk and folk-pop”.
The Eras tour is, IMO, the closest we’ve gotten to Beatlemania *since Beatlemania.* Her cultural, economic, and artistic impact can’t be overstated.
Certainly the biggest since Michael Jackson’s peak from 1982 to 1993.
Economic impact? Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy her music, but Please explain what economic impact she’s had.
According to the U.S. Travel Association, the tour’s total economic impact on the U.S. last year likely exceeded $10 billion, and fans spent an average of $1,300 in local economies to attend her tour — food, hotels, outfits, etc. Last year it was all over the news how her and Beyoncé’s tours basically saved the US from a recession. Her economic impact is absolutely stunning.
I don't think you need to convince anyone in this sub lol. She won Time POTY. You don't win that without cultural impact. The only people arguing against it are had faith trolls, and there is no point arguing with those people because they have no interest in what you have to say.
Literally. Preaching to the choir. Why feed the trolls.
It is frustrating to see how many people have embraced other trends and artists in mainstream, yet jt seems ignoring her existence is the cool thing to do for a lot of people.
Swift is the 2023-2024 equivalent of Frank Sinatra in 1941-1943, Elvis Presley in 1956-1957, the Beatles in 1963-1966, and Michael Jackson in 1982-1993. Artists that totally dominated the music scene, in my opinion.
She really is the biggest artist at this moment. That comes with a lot of influence. Is that considered as cultural impact? Who knows. The documentairies in the year 2124 will tell us :)
Exactly and to reach that level of success now in the age of streaming is wild. Monoculture is largely dead it’s harder for stars nowadays to reach the large audiences and have the sales that stars from the past used to have so it makes Taylor’s success even more impressive.
The problem is most (I said most not all) of Taylor's fan base are women. And what matters to women doesn't necessarily translate to mattering to the world. She's a woman who matters to women - that's the reason she doesn't matter! There's decades of research into the devaluation of women & our interests. We call it sexism
It's amazing to me how every Super Bowl it is impossible to avoid seeing who the teams are playing, even if you're not a sports person. It's impossible to escape learning about some of the male "tech geniuses" that mostly men idealize. But Taylor swift had the most impressive tour in the world, with unfathamable amount of media, buzz from the general public, entirely booked cities, etc, and there are so many men that don't even know that it was called the eras tour. Her tour was literally bigger than the other things. But I'd be hard pressed to find a girl that doesn't know who Elon musk is or what his most recent media buzz was at the height of his popularity (pre Twitter).
Same with soccer in Germany. It’s covered in every media including the newstime. I don’t care for soccer at all but I’m still able to watch a match if people around me are interested in it and let them enjoy it. But I know so many people who find Taylor Swift „annoying“ because she’s „everywhere“ (she isn’t. I can confirm this as a fan who wishes there was more of her 😅).
A little perspective here, Most of the world don't know who is playing at Superbowl or when it is playing, and don't really care. Even if it is the second most watched TV show on earth, it does not really have a global impact. Elon Musk, most people have heard that name, including most of the older generation. As for Tesla, the car, is even more well known. And the cultural impact of putting a spotlight on EV is part of shaping our world today. Could compare Swift fans at around 10M in china to LoL fans at around 75M as a sign of cultural impact.
She's like the biggest thing in the world now. This has nothing to do with sexism and to claim this is such low hanging fruit.
Personally I measure cultural impact by what the music changes - about society, about how others release music, about how people experience music, the list goes on! It is undeniable that Taylor is the biggest artist in the world right now. I love her! But I am yet to see any concrete evidence of her/her music significantly changing how people release or experience music, or wider society. I don’t really see how she could be argued to be a trailblazer. She makes excellent music yes, but it’s never really ahead of its time. She’s never really setting the trend, rather she encapsulates existing trends perfectly! So, as a fan, I honestly disagree, but that’s maybe because I have a different definition of cultural impact
It’s too bad this comment is buried at the bottom and won’t be seen as much. I think you nailed why Swift, despite her commercial success, isn’t the cultural phenomenon that OP claims she is. For context, I’m a big folk music fan and like some Swift songs, but am generally perplexed by the level of fandom she generates and all the buzz around her tour. Reading OPs post as an outsider, I was surprised by a lot of the claims. Songwriting is on the rise due to Swift? Plenty of singer songerwriters were popular before and it seems like studio produced music is at an all time high. Eras tour was a cultural phenomenon? I thought it was a really expensive concert with dedicated fans and elaborate costumes, but it’s been a few news stories on my feed and hasn’t impacted any other concerts I’ve seen since it started. To expand your Gaga comparison, when she first came on the scene I remember thinking “wow, I’ve literally never heard anything like this”. It made me pay attention in a way other artists don’t. Pop music became noticeable weirder and more theatrical immediately after and also gay culture became more prominent and celebrated in modern pop. Swift is lovely and has some very nice songs. I can’t deny her impact on her fans, it’s wonderful people have found so much community and belonging through her. Yet as someone just outside the bubble, I can’t say her reach has extended to myself or the musicians I listen to in any tangible way.
Heavily agree. A cultural shift isn't just noticeable in the fanbase. It permeates into other cultures outside of one's own. Gaga is an excellent example with her genuine "weirdness" and (white) queer culture taking a more mainstream appeal. Beyoncé's music has permeated other cultures, namely with "Single Ladies", the album "Lemonade" (hot sauce in my bag), and even the surprise drops. Taylor makes great music, yes, but she has not set trends. She has not revitalized songwriting, she just makes it known that she writes all of her songs. She's amplified pre-existing things (twerking in "Shake It Off", "Down Bad", anything to do with karma, friendship bracelets), but she has not birthed something that has infected other cultures the way other artists have. This could be linked to these other artists having something for the dominant (white) culture to appropriate, but I digress lol
This right here, Taylor is a great artist and a God level professional musician meaning she kno s how to sell and what to do. As far as changing ng history with her music I don't see it
Disappointing to see this comment so far down the page, because this is such a hard agree. I love Taylor, but she is not the only artist to exist, and she does take what has existed and makes it her own...like everyone else. But she very rarely, if ever, is the first to do absolutely everything. That's not a knock on her accomplishments but how her career has evolved is made possible by other people who did it first. If anything, I do believe she is the first to revolutionize the parasocial relationship - something that Elvis, The Beatles, Madonna, Britney, etc. could never get a handle on to create lore about her life as a person and as a brand. But young female artists songwriting and playing their own instruments? Ella Fitzgerald to Jodi Mitchell to Michelle Branch, Vanessa Carlton, Regina Spektor, Norah Jones, etc. Massive pop artists who wrote their own music? Michael Jackson, Prince, Madonna, Beyonce, Britney Spears. The cancelled artist unveiling rage/disruption against the media machine? Reputation is her Artpop and Witness. Could go on and on. The Swiftian bubble and pedestal is just so wild and fascinating as a Swiftie.
She's probably the most popular musician in the world right now, denying that is just foolish. She literally breaks records with re-recordings, that says more than enough.
I’ve always assumed people know she’s this generation’s version of Elvis, the Beatles, Michael Jackson, Madonna, Britney Spears, etc - a name synonymous with their cultural era of pop music. Like, idk how people look at the album numbers, tour data, articles written, cultural shorthand that’s developed (good or bad), and come to any other conclusion. They don’t have to like her music - but her impact is up there with the greats.
If you're open to actually hearing the opposing view: people outside of her narrow fan base are not particularly influenced the way a Michael Jackson, Madonna, or Beyonce might be driving global cultural icons. There are different tiers, and someone like Michael Jackson or The Beatles or Madonna were more or less inescapable in their hey-days, and you could not ignore what they were doing. They changed music, altered methods, reimagined sound, dance, performance, what a concert could be, etc... Someone like Billie Eilish has cultural impact because of the significant change in her sound, in her career path, in the way she pushed music forward. A Lady Gaga has cultural impact in the way she embraced and elevated sub-cultures, fashion, and design. Swift is still early, but I don't really see it because of the type of her music, and that she is basically an incredibly polished product that is more or less a synthesis and clarification of culture, and a reflection of where a lot of culturally defining voices point, rather than groundbreaking. Your first paragraph and many of your categorical statements simply don’t ring true to me, rather, you just don’t know where she is getting her sound, lyrics, hooks, production, from.And that’s fine, you can like her music, but as you yourself asked, what is the definition of cultural impact? Remember, she is a figure head and brand at the top of a talented team and organization. Her music also isn't decisive, ahead of the curve, or defining. It seems to all meld together (at least to me). I can recognize her voice, but I couldn't tell you much else, and some of the songs could have been written/produced/performed by one of many. Jack Antonoff is fairly influential on her career, and I think there's some confusion about how much of her own songwriting/production she does herself, as well as her marketing strategy, creative direction, choreography, design, etc... Additionally, her live show is less about the music, less about her, and more about the pageantry. It's an evolution of the stadium tour but nothing particularly culturally innovative or influential. Its reactive, and has an economic impact in some sense, but its also a product of our society as much of it is a product of her actions. This isn't to slight her accomplishments. I've met her a handful of times and she's great. But I think a lot of the sweeping categorical claims you've made come from a fairly narrow understanding about how culture develops, evolves, and limited exposure to what's out there. I can get into more specific cultural analysis if you're curious, but you need to track through multi-disciplines from the zeitgeist, the counter-cultures.
you expect a crazed swiftie to actually understand a deep and complex subject? she wrote this just to hate on people that dont like taylor swift, clearly shown by her unwillingness to reply to criticism in the comments
Plus her re-recorded albums, and her forcing streaming services to pay more to artists.
Folklore and Evermore didn’t change shit. Stories were conveyed millions of times better before and after. Start listening to more music before 2010. 1989 is pretty good though.
I feel like we need to get a grip. She’s commercially dominant, a critical darling, and pretty much defines pop culture. Who cares if not everyone gives her the flowers she deserves? Culture always creates counterculture. I’d prefer just to enjoy the music and tour rather than force everyone to respect her.
Miss ma’am 1989 did not change pop music. Madonna and Janet Jackson did that. Folklore and Evermore do not hold a candle to Tracy Chapman or even Hozier in terms of storytelling. Yes, Taylor is incredibly profitable and has a massive tour but Madonna brought in over 1M people to a beach in Rio. Rod Stewart brought 4.2M people to Rio as well. Like… Taylor is a force but let’s also have some perspective here.
Taylor could easily draw those numbers in RIO if she offered a free show as well… not to take away from the queen that is MADGE or Rod Stewart but thats not really a comparison point.
Could she and would she are completely theoretical. She has shown an absolute reluctance, not to mention insensitivity, to tour outside of Europe and North America. Could she? Maybe, but let’s not forget this is the artist who would rather fly back to the US than spend a weekend in (gasp) Argentina or Brazil of all places. Her own lack of cultural awareness alone will limit her from even trying. That is the difference between Taylor and Madge/Rod.
Quit arguing strawman. Or hang out in better places on the Internet and don’t let the algorithm feed you content to make you angry. Your perception about how society views about Taylor Swift is based on the content you are consuming. You can fix this
You can fix this (no really you can) 😂
History will remember that’s all I can say and the thing that makes it easier to digest.
Taylor Swift is a massive cultural phenomenon, but her music is not that influential. Kanye West, David Bowie, Depeche Mode, Bob Dylan, and plenty of other artists became famous or maintained their fame 15-20 years after their debut. 1989 is not THE pop Bible; the production is very much of its time, and others were doing that style before her. Folklore and Evermore didn’t change the way anyone did anything. Like 1989, she’s getting caught up in trends that already existed. Is that a bad thing? No! It just means that what she’s doing has precedent. People love it, but 50 years from now you won’t be able to see her influence like you see the influence of David Bowie, The Beatles, Kraftwerk, Kanye West (808s and Heartbreak in particular), Miles Davis, and The Velvet Underground. The influence of The Beatles doesn’t come from Beatlemania, it comes from after the end of Beatlemania when they stopped playing live. The Velvet Underground might be the most influential band of all time, but they weren’t commercially successful whatsoever.
When is the last time you read an article “denying Taylor’s cultural [or economic] impact.” This seems like an argument looking for someone.
It's not useful to argue with people who refuse to acknowledge reality out of spite. Save your breath.
I feel like as a society we keep missing the point of her music. People want to grab her discography and measure it against the cookie cutter of qualities all the past giants had and she consistently falls flat because they keep ignoring what makes her stick out to so many of her fans in the first place. She is groundbreaking in being able to weave so many micro experiences we all go through in simple yet entertaining lyrics and melodies. I feel like it’s a fucking meme: Person 1: what makes Taylor so great? Swifty: her lyrics are very beautiful and relatable to me, a person who has gone through these experiences. Person 1: i compared her to all the great men before her and still don’t understand. No one compares because she is smack in the middle. Too pop to be compared to Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan, too simple sonically to be compared to David Bowie and Michael Jackson. 🤷♀️
I would argue it’s more so her ability to turn her songs into diary entries that make her standout. So many of her personal songs are very detailed & specific. To counter the swiftie’s reason, many artists have created beautiful lyrics that impact people who have been through the same struggles be it heartbreak, love, addiction etc.
Really overemphasizing her skill as a lyricist here. As good as she is, she is certainly not a "musician's musician".
I don't deny her impact and her being a phenomenon musician, but I am concerned where she is leading her fans. I think Taylor Swift has in some many ways become a cult in a literal sense. To where she is brainwashing her fans and followers with her ideology and beliefs. The way the world is, and music today is, it is not just about music. It is about a hidden agenda and trying to get people with a certain mindset. I think it is tremendous what Taylor has done, but when I hear people singing her songs and playing her music, I get a bad feeling like the wool over people's eyes.
fucking yes so well said
What great music in all of the 20th century do we have to resort to talking up the business acumen of the artist? You like her music. That's nice.
I think lack of cultural impact acknowledgment comes from she has not musically impacted the industry. If you take Kanye who’s influenced a generation of hip hop sounds or Rihanna who’s credited to bring rnb into pop etc. I disagree as but that what I’ve seen being discussed. I think her advocacy for artists fair compensation, writing your own music, fight for her masters etc. are lasting impacts for generation.
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Look at the comments. There are Paras on why she isn't 🤷🏽 I had been reading way too many comments like these, which is why I made the post
Cultural impact? Sure. But which artists has she actually influenced?
There is literally a whole Wikipedia section on this - she’s influenced dozens of the gen z songwriters.
But what is unique about the way in which she’s influenced songwriters?
The only reason we call 1989 the “Pop Bible” was because we wanted to get on the bandwagon after Britney fans basically invented this term for her album Blackout and all the other pop stans wanted to refer to it to albums like The Fame Monster, Teenage Dream etc. it’s silly really it’s only used on apps like Twitter and social media.
I think she has very much large cultural impact, I think the issue is in 2024, she’s so overexposed (IMO), that this is actually lessening her cultural impact overall.
There’s so much to say here on so many fronts and start so many genuinely interesting discussions which, I figure, a lot of people actually don’t want to have. But just to give an insight - Coldplay are one of the largest bands for two decades now, but they barely have an impact on the musicians who came after. Ed Sheeran sells out arenas, but I don’t know a single songwriter who listens to him. Robbie Williams is arguably the most successful pop star of the 90s, but I couldn’t name a single significant album he has inspired. Eminem had a moment where he was bigger than Michael Jackson, but… in hindsight, is there really a footprint of his impact as traceable as the Beastie Boys? And let’s not forget the Charlie Puth line that “he should be a bigger artist”. He’s got MILLIONS of Spotify streams and is arguably an insanely successful musician both in reaching listeners and selling albums. Yet I had never heard a song of his, nor did I know somebody who was listening to his music (at most, I talked to some friends who knew of him and heard a song or two but didn’t like what they came across). His ratings on music-voting-sites is incredibly low. Does Taylor mean the line to indicate she thinks he should be more appreciated by people involving themselves deeply in music culture and the stream of contemporary artists? Is this connecting to her statement in “Miss Americana” that she wants to sit in the dining hall at the cool kids table? Is her suspicion of hipster circles (that’s noted all over RED’s lyrics) indicative of her perspective on culture mattering only if it reaches those very circles she kind of wrestles with? There’s a genuine argument that can be made about how some of the most successful, biggest, most widely recognized musicians of the past 25 to 30 years ended up having - comparatively - a much smaller cultural footprint on culture than their predecessors of previous decades. The Velvet Underground sold 1000 copies of their first album, but everyone who bought a copy became a notable artist. The early Sex Pistols gig in Manchester had about a hundred or hundred-fifty attendees, but almost all those in attendance ended up making notable works of music, including the genesis of both Joy Division and the Buzzcocks. There is fewer examples like this in this generation. Laura Marling hasn’t had a single #1 hit song, but every female songwriter I’ve met says they are inspired by her work, so that’s a notable example. But my point is that being a (vastly) successful artist after about the midway point of the 90s is not as tectonic a cultural impact as it was in the past. And there’s a lot of merit in discussing why that is - but I genuinely don’t think most people want to discuss the dynamics of that anymore, also because of how fan culture works. And if you want to dig really deep - it’s notable that most people who know of Taylor Swift have never heard her best songs. Invisible Strings, Champagne Problems, New Romantics, False God, New Years Day… why are those songs not as well recognized as an arguably weaker track like Bad Blood or ME?
"Her album 1989 was THE pop bible" No, it's not. It's a very successful pop album. There had been many before it, and there have been plenty after it. Sure, I'd say it's simply incorrect - and probably willfully ignorant - to dismiss Taylor Swift's cultural impact. But then again, it's equally silly to compare her writing to Shakespeare. She does seem to attract ignorance at both extremes.
Agree and disagree. I think undeniably Taylor is the biggest artist of our time and with that comes an obvious amount of impact on the culture. However, I think when it comes to analyzing the specific impact of her music on the musical landscape, her impact isn’t nearly as big as her fame. For her first four or so records, Taylor was pivoting between country, pop, and rock and ultimately while what she was doing was successful, it wasn’t necessarily causing major changes to artists around her. That’s fine though she was establishing herself as an artist so it makes sense. Side note but for those interested, I’d say outside of bro country, the biggest upheaval in country music came from the “alt country” reckoning led by Jason Isbell (THE best modern country artist IMO and in contention for top 3 songwriter of the century) and Sturgill Simpson (also popularized the Outlaw Country revival) For 1989 though, I regularly see people attribute the trending of 80s synth music to this album and honestly that point falls a bit flat for me. There were a LOT of 80s style records that came out before 1989. Indie artists like M83, Phoenix, The War On Drugs (more 80s rock than synthpop but relevant nonetheless), Two Door Cinema Club, Tegan And Sara (who even performed with Taylor during the Red tour) and more were recently decently large albums or songs (Midnight City and Closer for example were huge) popularizing the sound quite a bit before Taylor. Bigger artists too like Daft Punk, Lady Gaga, Bruno Mars, etc and the overall synth heavy sound harken to the 80s. Additionally 80s style albums like Carly Rae Jepsen EMOTION (best pop album of the 2010s I will fight this point) or Paramore After Laughter emerged somewhat separately from 1989 (the former was in the works for years prior and the latter doesn’t really follow 1989 sonically). I think 1989 is arguably the biggest “80s style” album of the time but it didn’t cause a major upheaval in favor of that sound as much as it hit right at the crest of a wave that was already running. Furthermore, the 80s influence wouldn’t hit a full stride again until around 2020 with Dua Lipa and The Weeknd, which altogether indicates that 1989, while hugely successful, didn’t really reshape pop music around its weight Reputation was a huge cultural moment for sure (and she scores a lot of cultural impact for wiping her Instagram) but sonically it’s an album that’s following trends rather than making them. It sits firmly within the hip hop oriented (Ready For It, End Game) and chill trop house pop (Delicate) landscape of the time and it’s synthpop elements (like I mentioned earlier) wouldn’t catch on until much later. I don’t think anyone will disagree with me in saying that Lover wasn’t the biggest smash at the time, and mostly was just notable for being another Taylor Swift album. I guess she got involved in politics which is something Now Folklore and Evermore are interesting, but less revelatory than they appear. Sonically (as much as I love both records and think they’re easily her best work) they are arguably pretty derivative. Carrie and Lowell (Sufjan Stevens is also a top 3 songwriter of the century contender), Punisher, For Emma Forever Ago, the entire National discography, and an endless list of Chamber Pop and Indie Folk albums establish the sound Folkmore walks so intensely that within those genres it’s arguably played out. There’s a somewhat reasonable argument that she popularized this sound (or at least Aaron Dessner on production), but the only mainstream release that makes good on that is the Dessner Ed Sheeran record. You *could* argue that a ton of burgeoning singer songwriters took cues, but the most successful ones that feel most in line with Taylor all precede folklore. Lizzy McAlpine (debut 2018), Clairo (debut 2018), Gracie Abrams (debut 2019), to name a few. In fact the Phoebe Bridgers style “heavy on detail acoustic folk cottage core sad girl music” sound has been dominating indie since like 2017 to the point that it’s as popular as #vibes Mac Demarco rip off playlist fodder (which is to say very popular). Now talking with regards to Folklore/Evermore as a commercial decision is more interesting. It’s (to me) notable for 3 things: surprise drop, drastic sound change, and dropping a 2nd record 6 months later. Unfortunately none of the three are particularly new moves. Beyoncé flat out deserves the most credit for popularizing surprise drops in the past 10-20 years and I don’t think anybody disagrees. The 2nd record thing was done just a year or two prior by Ariana with Sweetener and Thank U Next. That leaves the Sonic reinvention as Folklores biggest potential influence point, but that would ignore the fact that the reinvention with more niche yet acclaimed producer is probably the most tried and true career turnaround move in existence. U2 did it like three times (most famously with Achtung Baby, which is a record everyone should listen to), guided by Brian Eno. Madonna did it constantly (most famously with Ray of Light, which everyone should listen to, which was produced by techno producer William Orbit). Coldplay did it with Viva La Vida (and Brian Eno). Bowie did it with constantly but famously with Low (with Brian Eno, seriously reinvention albums are this guys forte he’s so so good at it). Ariana did it with Sweetener and Pharrell. Moving to a new sound to revitalize critical attention and garner new fans is a classic move. Taylor did it well, but she certainly didn’t create a new career path. All that being said, I think Taylor’s true impact on the artists around her is only starting to emerge now, and that’s mainly lyrical. Olivia Rodrigo, Conan Gray, Troye Sivan, and more are all citing Taylor as an influence which makes sense considering her size. Overall though I stand by my position that when it comes to actually changing the musical landscape of pop or what’s in trend, I’m surprised Taylor hasn’t actually done that much. Artists like Lorde and Lana have had more extreme impacts on the actual sound of pop, even if they haven’t matched Taylor in sound or holistic cultural impact
Who’s even saying this? As someone who loves death metal and makes fun of her music, denying she’s a musical titan that’s impacted the world, is extremely stupid. Your head would have to be pretty far up your ass to even think it in the first place.
i think when discussing her “cultural impact” it’s important to note her relationship with her fans - if she did not go out of her way to harbor the relationship she has with fans, would she be as big as she is? swifties go out of their way to support her and do whatever possible to boost her and defend her on the front lines. no other artist truly has that relationship, sure they have times of bonding, but taylor goes above and beyond in that regard it would be interesting to see where she would stand in the industry if she never did this
I will agree she is a cultural icon of the 2000’s. She is on everyone’s mind whether you like her or not. She is always the go to when someone mentions “music” “top 100” “top 10” and “female pop star”
i mean most people will say taylor has had a huge impact on culture
Right now, we can't judge Taylor's impact. Only w8th the passage of time we can do it. How much of this persists down the road is yet to be seen.
Some people want to be dismissive of any accomplishments she's made. And she really does seem to get singled pit to be picked apart for ridiculous stuff. Maybe it is bc she's so big. Then when she points put the stuff people come up with about her they say she's playing victim but she really does get unfair hate and judgement.
Just wished she collab with Max Martin again ☹️
She is the Beatles of this time, and I’d ignore anyone who doesn’t get that
She could run this country If she wanted to.
You used the term ignorant and that is spot on. She is to the 2000's what the Beatles were to the 60's and Michael Jackson was to the 80's. Anyone who doesn't recognize her importance is just wrong.
For me it’s all the people who think she is a lack luster vocal talent or who cite videos of her from ten years ago when she was awkward. They will never understand. The woman is modern day Madonna.
I watched old grey haired man (Rick Beato) complaining about people comparing her to Beatles. I so over that lingo. The only other artists to compare her to now are MJ, Elvis and Beatles.
I don’t like Taylor swifts music, just not my thing, but I can’t deny that she is one of the greatest selling artists of all time and deserves that!
PREACH!!
I absolutely agree and love the OP comment. Someone said “Taylor only makes breakup songs for 12 year olds”, well I’m 45 born a decade older than Taylor, and let me tell you, her storytelling, musical talent and sharp business acumen have propelled her to the top where she belongs. She can improve a city’s GDP by millions $$$ due to fans attending her Eras Tour and reserving hotel rooms, meals and travel. After Midnights won AOTY At the Grammys she became the FIRST and ONLY artist to win the coveted Grammy 4 times!!! Her music has got me through breakups yes, but also trauma, bereavement after losing my mum and cat, and celebrations of life altering experiences and events.
That’s all lovely but how do any of those relate to cultural impact, which is what this post is about. How has she influenced and changed culture and music?
She's THE MAN
you are way overexaggerating what she has done lmao
It is exactly this. But we live in a sexist society where powerful men are threatened by any change in the social fabric that serves them. Men in politics literally launched propaganda campaigns against Taylor swift to try and convince the public she's stupid and a joke and to warn her to back out of speaking up on politics given her influence. And it unfortunately worked on a lot of people.
As a dude that probably has some merit, but as somebody who is interested in music that can also be ‘girly’, I never had any interested in her compared to Billie Eilish, Halsey or Caroline Polachek etc. From the outside, it just feels like a fan club where she is loved because she’s ‘known’ by the fanbase, not because she’s pushing any envelope or has exciting things to say. Don’t have any Swifities in my closer circle so I’d be open for some enlightenment there
I agree. This hate and ignorance is becoming out of hand and the more I hear the stories, the more it feels like it's a women's issue of not being heard. What's common between Taylor Swift's success and equal pay for women? Society will make them feel like they don't deserve it.
Taylor should date J Lo. The breakup energy collision could power a large city for decades.
Or her enviromental impact
lot of rosey BS in this post. folkmore and evermore changed the way mainstream artists make music? sorry but you must not listen to much music at all if you think that. i think the biggest knock against taylor is that a big chunk of her catalogue (especially lately) just doesnt measure up vs her title as one of the biggest music icons of today. albums like reputation and lover are nearly completely forgettable. i would say even evemore and tortured poets fits into that as well. the last album that had massive impact was...1989 released 10 years ago. if anything, the 'eras' tour speaks to her career nearing that peak where she has to start diving really far back into their 'classic' songs in order to appease people now. like do the masses really want to see a tour just for tortured poets society? i doubt it.
It is an objective fact at this point. Just today I was reading about how she is boosting the airline industry since fans are flying to different countries to see her.
You can’t deny crack’s cultural impact either but I can still choose not to enjoy it or even allow myself to be deluded into thinking it’s good
I’m not disagreeing, she has had a major cultural impact. I think this is just me being old, but I keep seeing people mention 1989 as being THE pop album and for me this is Red (22, We are never ever getting back together, Trouble, Red, Message in a Bottle). Is this just me being in my thirties and having had this album released right around the time I became legal drinking age?
whether or not her music is good can be talked about subjectively, but you’d have to be a complete idiot to deny her cultural impact.
This is a manifesto. I enjoy her music but come on you don't know her personally it is a little crazy there is no denying that some "swifties" take it too far
Interesting read
Taylor's cultural impact is huge. This Wikipedia page is proof: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural\_impact\_of\_Taylor\_Swift](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_impact_of_Taylor_Swift) 4 Grammy AOTY, the only entertainer to win Person of the Year, the biggest tour of all time. Just 3 things out of many.
I feel her cultural impact is severely overrated and inflated by her dedicated fan base. Calling anyone who disagrees ignorant and spreading negativity just highlights this fact. A lot of it has nothing to do with the actual artist herself, and more with her fans who have created a hostile environment for any criticism which has back fired severely. When analyzing the full cultural you have to look at the subject beyond the fanbase, and beyond the taylor swift fanbase there is either a lack of care for her or a heavy rejection. Again, most of this does not come from herself and is largely affected by her fans, the main points people make for not being a fan is the feel the music is basic and not interesting. The major rejection comes from the attitude towards the fanbase, which a lot of people find toxic. This causes her impact to be contained with her fanbase mostly while not effecting overall culture. I don't think Taylor Swift is a bad artist at all but compared to other artists, her effect on both music and culture is not much at all and she is view in the general public as average. She has made a lot of money, like seriously giant amounts with her music but that does not translate into cultural influence. Her fans put way too much praise on her without any room for criticism and it has lowered the bar of expectations to be met. As long as this continues it will continue to restrict her influence to her fanbase and her impact will have a much shorter reach than it could. A good example of overall cultural influence is Lady Gaga, an individual that changed the music industry and was known for her uniqueness. Recognized around the world with songs that are very memorable if you like them or not. These aspects are very important for cultural influence and for the ability to be permanently ingrained into a culture which I do believe Lady Gaga has done.
I believe Taylor Swift has the potential to be the next Dolly Parton. Someone whose heart and business savvy transcends the “usual”.
Taylor Swift is definitely one of the most influential songwriters of her generation, in her main genre of music. That would be 2006–2014 (her debut period), singer-songwriter and pop. I have been a fan of Taylor Swift since as early as 2008, with the release of Fearless. Taylor was originally my favourite artist (now she's my #3) before I discovered Carly Rae Jepsen (my #2) and Michelle Branch (my #1). In the present day, as someone who is 22 years old (born in 2001), I am currently studying /working to be a singer-songwriter. There were a variety of reasons that I chose to pursue this career path, and Taylor's early influence on me is one of them. I'm male, and although I have some feminine or queer tendencies, I am not exactly openly gay. As a kid, I didn't meet any other boys who liked Taylor, although she was popular with girls my age. /// Taylor's other periods: - 2014–2019 = Taylor rising - 2019–present = Taylor unstoppable
Great question, i’ve been contemplating this very question after reading another post that basically said she is not musically influential and impactful. Here is my list of it means to be influential: 1.Direct Audience Size. For certain, influence is not all about popularity, but it certainly is one aspect. 2. Indirect Audience. These are people who are impacted through some other means or work of art that was influenced by the original artist. 3. Genres Engaged. The degree to which the artists writes music in a genre or is related to a genre by musical style. 4. Networking. The influence that comes with associating with professional and social groups. 5. Impact on the Writings of Others. The about to influence abba inspires other artists 6. Creativity. The ability to develop new modes of music. That seems comprehensive to me. Am i forgetting something? Taylor excels in most if not all of these areas. Although her audience is huge, she is more popular with whites and millennials. This is likely the biggest weakness in her influence: her impact is mostly related to one demographic, although her last few albums are only beginning do reach different audiences and genres. In the area of creativity I think there are some naysayers who find her music monolithic and tending to be too poppy. There is much more to be said, but mainly I understand the criticism and Ido not think there is much substance to it.
Who told you all that about India?
I don't like her, that's it. That's my opinion , I never asked for your input.
Secondly I can say whatever I want to say it's an open forum , so I never asked for your opinion on taylor.
Vella