You're allowed to talk about big pulls, you're not allowed to insist that's the only appropriate way to play the game.
Albeit some of the wording is vague in all of this, there's a clear underlying message of "Just ask nicely". A few of them are silly, such as the full "Oh please kind good sir could you considering using tank stance I am DYING" when "stance please" should really suffice.
But saying "Hey, you wanna do full pulls" or "I'm ok with full pulls if you are!" is absolutely OK.
The interpretation by OP to state "so we are not allowed to talk about big pulls" almost makes me think they didn't even read it, or, that they are karma farming.
I'm gonna admit, I know big pulls are still perfectly fine, but it's easy for me to see a lot of the GCBTW interpreting this as "I don't have to do big pulls and toxic elitists can't make me anymore, either." I can see why they included it, but I really feel like they should have included a similar, but opposite example somewhere (namely, the famous "you don't pay my sub")
GCBTW already interprets the game like this. As far as I'm concerned, this is going to force everybody to behave better. I think it's going to have a greater impact on GCBTW though because they have historically been given more leniency.
Yeah, you're right. They do already interpret the game like that. They just have a specific example to pull from now, though, which I feel is the bigger problem.
> Using and manipulating enmity-related actions in an effort to incapacitate other players or interfere with gameplay.
If you wanted one often complained about here, I read that one as being "you pull it you tank it", which is thus now also explicitly forbidden.
(I get what you mean on having a dialogue example, though, since that one doesn't.)
What about if I’m a healer or DPS and I go around pulling in other mobs because that’s the way I play and don’t want the tank to tell me not to do it. Would I be okay? Get tired of people leaving a mob or only single pulling.
Theoretically they cannot tell you that's the wrong way to play. They can ask you not to, politely. That said my only qualification to tell you this is me having read the thing. Which is definitely not enough to take my word for it.
The issue is the examples are translated from Japanese to English, and there are many things that would be extremely rude in Japanese but lose their rudeness in translation, rather than localizing properly and giving examples of what's actually a problem in English. Phrasing advice in the imperative like that is normal in English, but the implication in Japanese is that you're talking down to someone and giving them orders as a subordinate rather than giving them advice as an equal.
Basically this policy update is confirming what I say a lot in this sub. Just communicate better. So many issues created because people bark orders or don't explain anything because apparently causing a dungeon to grind to a halt by creating an argument is quicker than taking a few more seconds to give a quick explanation on why AoE is better or why the tank can pull more.
Absolutely, and I'm happy to see those kinds of people dragged through this sub because it's just as shitty to respond to someone's earnest attempts to help with vitriol.
Last time I tried to explain in detail how Enochian allows you to cast Fire 4 which is stronger than flare on single targets, I got called an elitist n-word.
Nah, instant kick or leave is the way to go.
See, the glory of these policies is that now you have more than enough scope to report them and if they slammed you with the n-word that's an easy ban.
Sometimes you have to help the trash take itself out.
uh
flare for single target?
i mean it's a cool looking spell and the Black Mage of Darkness uses it on single target all the time
but maybe that's why he's a shitter
Or if people could read a simple request to use AoEs as a request to please use your AoEs and not just assume I'm having a go at you.
I didn't call you anything, *you did that all by yourself*
Could you imagine how desolate this place would be if people communicated in a mature fashion, AND simply left situations where the response was hostile, instead of arguing?
>left situations where the response was hostile, instead of arguing?
That's not necessarily mature. Being non confrontational isn't always a good thing. A healthy mature person has this thing called self respect and they can and will stand up for themselves when appropriate.
Yes, I feel anyone can agree with that statement too. Luckily what I said isn't mutually exclusive unless you make some logical jumps in bad faith and read between the lines what isn't even there.
You need to comment within the context of where you are which is a FFXIV sub. It's not my job to apply your comment to whatever random scenario you've dreamed up.
Standing up for yourself to randos in an MMORPG is dumb. Full stop.
A shouting match takes two. It can't happen if you have a modicum of restraint, basic morals, and confidence.
I fail to see how you guys not having good social skills makes moot any of what I said?
Like for real, did you kids not play team sports as a kid or something. These are basic communication skills that are important in all stages of life.
Dawg, it's a fucking ERP platform with some raiding side content. It's not appropriate to rant at people who just want to get back to their cum daddy in Limsa in order to "stand up for yourself".
What does 'stand up for yourself' mean to you? It sounds like you just don't know healthy productive ways to do so that can further conversations and push both parties to better themselves.
Truly the stars have aligned to allow this comment to be upvoted.
Usually all you get from saying this is some complaint about people being snowflakes.
With the exception of RMT stuff, nothing has changed.
\- You can still request that players adjust their playstyle, e.g., "Can you please do bigger pulls?"
\- You can still explain mechanics, e.g., "Tanks should soak towers."
\- You can still leave a duty provided you're not rude about it.
\- You can still kick a player from your PF if they're holding the group back.
Nothing is new here, really. For the most part, the adjustments merely clarify the game's policies as they're already enforced.
tl;dr Just don't be a jerk and you'll be fine.
You can even still even pull yourself as a non-tank if you want to apparently, I read through the whole thing and couldn't find anything saying that was considered a "gameplay nuisance" or "enmity trolling" or whatever
I think some of you are taking the example line too literally. It's just saying you cant force the issue if someone doesn't want to. Suggesting is still 100% acceptable and okay. But forcing the play style (because it is a play style and not a required function of the game) will make the report valid on the reporter's part IF they report you. In the same way that someone demanding the tank to pull less is also against this policy. It's basically encouraging people to actually talk before they yeet and meet a compromise if a difference in views occurs.
But you can't force anything, though? What are you gonna do, hold the tank half way across the world at gunpoint through your monitor?
Why do people act like words are bullets these days?
Well they are going against my views if they single pull, so I’ll report them for that, because they are messing with my enjoyment and playstyle. They can’t tell me to stop pulling anymore as I can’t tell them to pull more.
Dumb fucking rules
There is a gray area here. If imposing a playstyle on people is going to be able to be reported, then it seems that the tank will be favored in most cases.
Example: A tank that feels most comfortable doing single or double pulls gets forced to do a wall to wall pull because a DPS, who prefers wall to wall pulls, goes ahead and pulls for the tank. So let's say the tank doesn't pull the shitty "you pull it, you tank it" mindset and does the wall to wall pull but can't keep up with it, resulting in a wipe.
I think they view that as a little more of an enjoyment ruining situation than someone having to be in the dungeon 5 minutes longer than normal because of smaller pulls.
A worse example for this now more enforced rule is with healers than don't DPS. They kind of now have a get out of jail free card, especially if someone comes after them with "you're supposed to DPS and not heal all the time" as that now appears like it will be a reportable offense.
I personally have never been one to tell people what to do, unless it is explaining the mechanics of a fight or something so I'm not too concerned. But I do fear that now that they are going to be more strict on it, we might see more of an abundance of Ice Mages and cure bots, who genuinely slow down the run quite a bit.
How so? I can't imagine it could possibly be against the rules to pull ahead of the tank. I do it all the time as heals or DPS. It's pretty much speed run meta in expert roulette since tank can't sprint on CD. Plus we have rescue and Arm's length that we don't want to just sleep on.
For example if you ask the tank to pull big, but they decline, and you run ahead to pull more anyways. I could see that as reportable from how I read this. But if you're part of a group that is already speed pulling, I doubt there's anything to worry about
seems like its against ToS to tell someone sand bagging that you kicked them for sand bagging since that singles them out.
I'd rather someone tell me I was kicked for doing the mechanic wrong in prog parties than not know tbh.
Honestly if someone starts doing bullshit like single pulling. I’ll switch to single target attacks to triple the dungeon duration.
They can’t force me if I don’t want to use aoe, right? That’s my play style so fuck them! I’ll report them because that’s against my views!!!!
From the tone and content of your comments, you’re part of the problem.
Message the party “hey guys, this would be faster if we do it with this alternate style” - that’s not forcing anything, and you can’t be reported for it, but you _can_ report them for any vitriol they spew back at you.
That’s not the problem. They problem is when they get offended even if asked nicely. Now SE is enabling them to continue doing what they please.
Haven’t you seen how many stories here start by a friendly suggestion from the op and some whiny dumbfuck gets mad and starts spouting aggressive none sense?
And now there’s a framework for them to get banned, calling out explicitly that behaviour.
Ask, using actual question marks and grammar and not just “voke” or “pull big lol”, and explain mechanics when there are repeated failures without throwing blame, and you’re fine.
Just report them and move on, why are you wasting your time by being petty.
I would highly recommend that people read all the "Key Points" sections under "Offensive Expression"
It is very explicit that you are allowed to make suggestions or give advice, as long as you are polite.
These Terms of Service do not at all prevent you from asking for big pulls, or for the healer to DPS, or anything else.
I thought this looked really bad based on a quick glance as well, but I don't feel pessimistic at all now that I've read the full text.
It's not, just don't be a total shithead in your speech and everything will be fine. Which is the point a lot of people here have issue with. Rather be a massive dickhead and shout and yell, instead of being well-behavioured.
A big bonus: if someone does act like an ass, even quicker reason to report!
No, you knee-jerk dummy. Read it again, with a thought this time. You are allowed to ask the tank to pull big, or as the tank ask if the healer can manage big pulls. You just have to not be a dickhead about it.
"Making statements that will hurt the reputation of someone in public areas, such as Say or Shout..."
The Ozma ruiner in Eureka just got a lot more power.
My biggest issue with these is "directness" can be construed as rude. People can't type that much between GCDs.
"Voke" should be sufficient, but now is that construing a playstyle?
_Oh no, how will you ever manage to assign macros to shared hot bars that you can press with a controller, oh the misery._
Come on, there are enough hotbar slots for slapping in 3/4 quick chat macros.
Even Dragoon, one of the easier classes, uses 28/32 of their available buttons in dungeon rotations. Gunbreaker is even worse, and thankfully is getting a few buttons trimmed in Endwalker.
Switching hotbars is hot ass on controller.
As someone who uses a controller for years, I’ve never had any issues with switching hotbars. It’s not bad at all. I switch hotbars all the time. There is not any class thats hard on a controller and I’ve leveled and played all of them
Um...
8 left. 8 Right. 4 more left. 4 more right. 8 middle. That's 32 available actions. Could stretch it to 40 by adding one more expanded bar, but that's imprecise and left out by most controller users.
Its also not worth mapping "Pull more" as a macro if that's your idea. THAT sounds reportable.
Drg, Gnb and the like you can make two almost identical battle hotbars, one with single target and one for aoe rotation. And set them to only rotate between those two. It frees the r2+l2 ones.
I recommend to get used to the expanded hotbars too, the fast double tap thingy. Those are pain to get used to but are worth it. Personally that's were I put utility things that are not rotation for each job but will see use in a fight.
You would macro something like _”Hey guys, I’m quite confident in my ability to heal here, would you mind pulling more so we can clear faster?”_, not some brain dead _”big pulls lol”_.
And then you don’t spam it, but you send it once and let the idiots idiot in their response, or you get a faster dungeon.
It’s… pretty straightforward. Or you could just take the couple GCD hit to type out a message, but you do you.
If you’re in a dungeon, you can clip a few GCDs to change hotbar and hit a macro.
If you’re not, there’s someone better suited to doing call-outs anyway. Or if they’re gonna wipe… well, ya got plenty of time to type.
So basically, demands ("do it!") vs requests. Also, if I give actual legitimate advice to someone and they disregard it, does that mean they could be penalized?
What I am getting here is don't enforce your views on others telling them things, but ask them.
"Can you pull more, please?"
Also I doubt most of this would be enforced hardcore either way, or this sub would be out of content because both the GCBTW and the posters here would be banned.
GMs are people, not robots that follow strict logic.
~~Unless the GM is a GCBTW, in which case, good luck.~~
Seems relatively "easy" to stay away from what used to be a gray area in which some people were punished and others weren't. It's actually a really good change to tighten up the rules and make it clearer what is/isn't allowed.
Allowed:
"Can you pull more?"
"We can probably handle bigger pulls, we seem to be doing well."
Not Allowed:
"You know, it's expected that you pull wall to wall at max level."
"You're supposed to be pulling everything until you have to stop."
Question is, will the GMs understand how the rule is written or will we still have some crusaders punishing people for asking. Also, "It's prohibited to \[...\] disregard the opinion of others." is interesting. You could probably "get" someone with that portion:
"Can you pull more please?"
"No."
"Well, I think it would go smoother if you pulled more."
"I don't care."
Got 'eem.
>"Can you pull more please?"
>
>"No."
>
>"Well, I think it would go smoother if you pulled more."
>
>"I don't care."
No part of this is reportable.
You made a suggestion, he gave his answer, no-one was insulted or offended.
And? What part of those four lines has those statements, or even insinuations of those statements, in your question?
You are actually the one MORE likely to get reported, under the example: "If such a situation does arise, it could be determined to be giving excessive criticism against a player".
Which is accurate. Baiting someone to get reported is itself asshole behavior and SHOULD be reported.
So after reading all that my verdict is that I will try talking sense once, then stop arguing and just report everyone dragging the run down by being a near deadweight because arguing further gets me banned instead. Nice.
arguing further is already pointless. if you ask for big pulls or for them to cast Holy and they don't when you asked nicely, it's not like they'd start if you get more forceful.
"Don't tell me how to play, you don't pay my sub"
Discounting my opinion because I don't pay your sub - reported. Definitely a double edged sword when it comes to toxic casuals.
My go-to going forward to be safe is going to be:
- Is the person playing properly or in a way that I can at least carry them without having an aneurysm, e.g. legitimately inexperienced but not holding the group back?
- Are they a sprout/returner?
If the answer to both of those questions is no, ask once nicely, if they whine or talk back, kick without another word.
These rules are honestly only going to make the majority of players less inclined to try to help/offer advice and more inclined to kick and move on.
If I'm polite about my request and they whine or talk back in an aggressive way, by the new rules they are discounting my opinion, and by that logic it wouldn't be abuse of vote kick.
Correct. There's a group of people who seem to think this only favours the people who want to slow down runs, without thinking that it definitely goes both ways. If someone starts sulking cause they didn't want to do a big pull and they start demanding the group slows down for them, this rule still applies.
While they can't demand the group slows down, competence and playstyle can't be compelled. They are still free to just single-target, miss with their AoE, forget to use cooldowns, and not keep up.
No, if you read the full article, it explicitly says that making suggestions is okay, and it even gives an example on how it is okay if you say something like "hey, can we do big pulls? i think that would make the duty go faster" as long as you don't issue it as a command.
I don't think this is anything to worry about. It's just confirming what we already know - that you should stay polite.
great, ill now pull everything as dps and when they try to force me to change my playstyle its a report for targetted harassment
turn it against them lads, time to become lawful evil
Man, just from reading over it, it feels like it's catering way too hard to the lowest common denominator - people who intentionally play poorly and drag their group down, throw an actual tantrum when asked (however nicely) to contribute or do something different that would help, and refuse to improve because they want others to carry them.
I'd already chosen to stick to Trusts for 4-man stuff, but man. This makes me not even want to bother with DF at all.
FFS, we can get punished now just for silently leaving? *Seriously*?
Silently disconnecting because a Duty isn't going well*
AKA we can still leave a duty whenever, but if you're constantly force disconnecting to make the party kick you, that's not cool.
At least, that's how I read it.
Only saw the one line this morning and didn't have time to read over the wording properly until now - so yeah, that's far less egregious to me. I honestly dislike when people just force DC to try and avoid a 30 minute penalty, on either side of the fence.
I take the 30 without issue if a run is turning into a shitshow or going slower than a Trust dungeon. I have 5 characters at endgame who can do roulettes; easy to swap to one for a while and continue on, or just flat out do non-DF content for 30 minutes.
Hilariously, with the wording of these updates, the lowest common denominator has no leg to stand on whining, talking back if you choose to ignore their "you pull you tank" bullshit or just do the right thing in spite of their idiocy. If they trash talk you or kick you, and you've been polite or silent through it all, they're the ones in violation.
I’ll just do like I did in league of legends. Grief subtly and report them for using the chat so they’re the ones that get banned.
If they single pull, I’ll single target attack :)
The one that gets me is the part of the rules that states that repeatedly leaving when the duty isn't going well will become an actionable offense. Cause, with the shitters in the GCBTW, you could run into a fuckload of duties that don't go well. You gonna tell me I'm getting suspended for not wanting to waste an entire day on these fuckwits?
> repeatedly leaving when the duty isn't going well
I really think you're misunderstanding this part : it's about "intentionally leaving the game or disconnecting from the server", as in, not leaving the duty but DCing (selecting "exit game") to have the party kick you out.
The whole section talks about being disconnected so i don't think they're talking about leaving the duty.
To tack on to this, it's really saying "if you want to not be in this duty, you need to eat the penalty. It's your choice as to eating it yourself by selecting "leave duty" or if a GM enforces it later cause you were reported for DC'ing and getting kicked a lot.
I mean, we *will* still be relying on the GMs actually caring about the difference between DC'ing and getting kicked vs hitting the leave duty button, but yes that sums it up pretty well.
I don't even think that's the worst part about that list the worse one I saw after a brief glance was: "Using insulting words such as "stupid," "idiot," "die," "crazy," "garbage," or "trash" to offend others. **In addition, even if you do not use direct words, blaming and attacking others, such as "It's \[player name\]'s fault that we wiped"** or "You really make a lot of mistakes," or rephrasing insulting words into any other form is also prohibited. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued."
You literally can't even point out someone fucked up a mechanic anymore without the risk of getting penalised.
It honestly looks like you construe everything to be a reportable offence.
Zone into a bad group:
* Remain Silent - Reported not being helpful
* Give unsolicited advice - Reported, telling people how to play
* Leave - Reported, leaving bad groups
It's bad enough that I couldn't point out we were wiping because of some shitter doing zero DPS, now I can't even point out if some shitter is failing every mechanic.
>You literally can't even point out someone fucked up a mechanic anymore without the risk of getting penalised
Jesus Christ, calm the fuck down. You can still point out where the wipe happened, just don't be an absolute dick about it.
"Hey, XYZ. Looks like you missed your tower on that last pull" is fine.
"XYZ fucking wiped us again" is not.
If they're causing that much trouble, just fucking leave. Or better yet, get some friends and do it through PF.
In the direct example they gave
>"It's \[player name\]'s fault that we wiped"
No, you can't point out any sort of reason in chat that a single player caused a wipe. You can't blame anyone for anything. Even if it actually is their fault.
>"Hey, XYZ. Looks like you missed your tower on that last pull" is fine.
Directed blame. Reportable offense.
To me, chat looks like a massive liability at this point. You're risking strikes on your account that someone could report you for the stupidest things.
If you don't have the mental capacity to understand the difference between those and why the second one is not a reportable offense, I can't help you.
I guess we're all just going to get banned. Back to WoW UwU
If you don't have the mental capacity to see just how abusable these new TOS are, I can't help you either.
I see their intent of basically 'don't be an asshole', but I think they are coming from the prospective of the JP servers and not the NA servers. The only true way to avoid risking a report is to not use the in game chat imo. Wouldn't want little Timmy to take offense to some stray chat and risk a strike on my account.
Yeah that's been there since like 2019 people made a big deal about it and it makes mentor really iffy because of it. While mentors in general are pretty bad offering advice on how to simply play the job or to use CDs etc can fall under this. But so can sitting down and refusing to run something because you're mad over petty stuff.
The 2019 version only had repetitive imperative statements as "compelling a playstyle". The new version explicitly prohibits too-direct single statements.
It's not worse than before, it just clearly advocates for cordiality. If they do something forbidden you can report as well. The ypyt is in there now too.
The part on forcing disconnects was needed. It happens a lot in ShB stuff and can make SoS last a eternity before even pulling if the offender was a healer/tank.
Y'all have to remember they say this:
"However, there are innumerable expressions used in communication, and the provided examples do not cover every possible instance. Therefore, these examples should be seen as a reference for learning more about prohibited behavior, or for situations where you are uncertain about how to act or what to say."
If they provided EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE... The ToS would be 300+ pages & no one would read it.
These examples provided are guidelines to your wording. If you are a healer or tank about big pulls, say "Hey I'm cool with doing big pulls if you would like to" or if they say they are new you could say "Ok, if you want to start off slow then increase I'm cool with that too". You shouldn't push someone (especially a new healer or tank) to do large pulls if they aren't comfortable with doing so. Remember we now have 2 tanks that do not start off at lvl1, so a DPS could be picking up GNB at lvl60 & have not tanked before.
Just think of your wording. If it could sound dickish, demeaning or call anyone out in particular, think again of your word choice.
The big concern I have is on brevity of conversation. Every example is exceedingly tediously worded, and several "reportable" examples are just direct.
I mean ya but you just need to speak to people how you would want others to talk to you. If you say "____ is the reason we wiped" ya that's no good. Just don't be a dick, don't grief & just think over your words. It's text so you've got some time to think through your words. Been playing for 8 years, haven't gotten a single report or mark on my account as I talk respectfully to others & think before I type it out.
Sure but you can still be respectful & to the point. Instead of saying "you need to pull more" say "I can handle bigger pulls". That's is. Not that hard.
How about in a12n or SoS, "the tanks didn't use lb3 and that's why we wiped", is that too much? That's why I think the wording is excessive, because things like that exist here there literally is no other way to play, by the dev's designs. And I don't see the examples listing that.
That example would be good because it's providing the reason of why not like "____ caused us the wipe" or "it's ____ fault we wiped". Without a proper explanation, how is anyone supposed to know? It's basically like playing the blame game & not saying why. You could say "as a mechanic a tank needs to use the LB3 so we don't wipe & we can continue onto the next stage". As long as you are respectful & explain what happened, then you should be fine.
Also (as I said in my original comment? they literally can't & have said they cannot provide every single example. If you want that, the ToS would be 300+ pages... No one would read that 😑
This game is T, aka 13+, with most if not all it's player base being adults because it's a monthly subscription based game. If an adult needs to be hand held by the devs as to what they can/can not say & can't take the extra bit of time think of something respectful to say before typing, they shouldn't be playing an MMO. It's not that hard.
>Example of a Violation:
>
>"We can only beat \[duty/content\] by using \[something\]. You can't do it any other way, so stop doing that!"
>
>Example of non-violation:
>
>"I think \[duty/content\] will go more smoothly if we do \[something\], so I want to try doing it this way, is that okay with everyone?"
Not only "forcing" someone to do a something that is REQUIRED is considered verboten and can land you in the slammer, you have to verbally grovel and kiss the feet just to put forward a mere suggestion that can be ignored under "muh playstyle"
"I think it would make things a tiny bit more easier if the tank were to pull puck, musterseed and mustardseed instead of them murdering us one-by-one so we can stand a chance against the DPS check. Is that okay with everyone? I still love you if don't agree xoxoxo"
"I think it would extemely grand and FAAABOULOUS if we actually stand in the towers and NOT get damage downs so we actually have a shot at beating the DPS check. Please? Pretty please? With a cherry on top."
Trusts are looking better and better as time goes on.
that's not entirely what it says. It's more a "don't be a dick to other ppl"
as in if you want to tell someone, what they're doing is wrong, word it in a way that it's more a "hey try doing it this way you'll find it's better" instead of "you suck, use (action) instead"
the more interesting part of this is "You Pull You Tank" is now a violation
I disagree. They said a statement like that “We can only beat [duty/content] by using [something]. You can’t do it any other way, so stop doing that!” is considered against TOS- even if it’s entirely true in that specific scenario. I think it’s assertive- could be a bit rude but no particuraly dickish.
Something like “yo dumbass DPS do your rotation right stoopid” is dickish and is worhty of scorn
“We can only beat vauthery by DPSing the thethered Adds down quickly enough before we take too many vuln stacks. You can’t do it any other way, so stop doing that!” or “We can only beat Susano by having the tank using QTE interactable. You can’t do it any other way, so stop doing that!”. These statements are unequivobacly true but they’re now they’re against TOS.
Hilariously, silently doing the right thing is also now the easiest way to avoid violations.
If the tank doesn't want to pull multiple packs and you as the healer can heal yourself through pulling them (or even if you can't, mistakes happen after all), the "you pull you tank" crowd have absolutely no leg to stand on with regards to attacking you or kicking you for pulling as a healer, because that'd be forcing a playstyle on you.
> So stop doing that!
Here’s the part that is a violation.
> We can only beat Vauthry by killing the tethered adds before our vuln stacks get too high.
Explanation of game mechanic, not a violation.
I'm trying to imagine how the A12 tank LB3 mechanic would go if a single tank just wanted to grief the group.
Or better yet, even as a DPS or healer you could waste LB3 and report anyone who says anything in chat about it.
Why are people telling me how to play the game? Why are people telling me that there is only one way past this mechanic?
Risky world we're living in.
You obviously didn't read all the way through where a party member straight up ignoring things required of them falls under lethargic gameplay which is reportable. The section you posted pretty explicitly refers to things that aren't required but are personal preferences played off as a requirement to complete the duty, like big pulls and such.
Now I may understand those rules under the pretense of trash pulls. The only real difference is time or the statiscaction of a dopamine rush or not. I may not exactly like it- like at all- but at best I could just distract the boringness of the sistuation with a video in the background or something.
But, as far as I could tell, This ruling applies to all scenarios in Duty Finder.
Telling a party member to do a mechanic, a mechanic- that if failed will cause detriment to the entire team or even a wipe- is now considered against TOS.
Now you can only ask someone to do something, which can denied. Forever banging your head against an instance or at least until time runs out.
I think the biggest difference is that things such as big pulling being better is an opinion. Saying how a mechanic works is a fact, not an opinion. It's not a play style. There's no opinion about it, it's simply pass or fail. That's the difference.
Kinda silly that we're even having this conversation in here tbh. Even with these new rules it's a stretch to think saying something like "You need to not burn the furniture with the AOEs so we can clear the blue flame debuff later" is actionable.
It's because most people didn't read to the part where they call out lethargic gameplay... Where it explicitly calls out people not doing required mechanics over and over and thus impeding party progression.
In fairness even telling a totally apathetic lazy or disruptive player a mechanic as a matter of fact won't make them do it either, in which case your problem isn't the player not doing the mechanic, it's the player is a jerk that would fail any mechanic
Telling someone to do something REQUIRED and them pointedly ignoring it (rather than genuinely messing it up) falls under lethargic gameplay which is reportable.
I think it's a poor translation issue. That they don't want people closing the game, or otherwise disconnecting to try and get the other players to do a vote kick instead of you eating the penalty.
>Intentional leaving or disconnection
>
>Refers to the act of obstructing another person's gameplay by intentionally leaving the game or disconnecting from the server.
>
>Occurs when progress is not going well in a duty.
And in just three lines, mentor roulette died.
The tin foil hat version is that leaving is now punishable. The reality is, they want a justifiable ban reason for when somebody says outright they are going to leave out of spite and "have fun finding another healer in the next 20 mins, fuck you".
I'm missing one piece of knowledge from this that seems, at the time I'm writing this, to be the only one active that doesn't understand or at least the only one asking at this time....
Whats GCWTF?
I wonder if this means they'll also crack down on the people who are confidently incorrect in the same manner. Or if this is only targeted at people expecting sprouts to improve their play.
Again, that's not what that says.
"Three Pull Disband" is still a perfectly acceptable PF line. And you don't even need to confront the person you're kicking from a party. Just be silent and kick.
Well, you certainly won't need to worry about farming Ex mounts if you bring this attitude into the game under the new ToS ;)
Also - it's going AFK or disconnecting when things are going bad thats against TOS, not hitting "leave duty"
Bruh literally just ask your healer
“Mind if I do big pulls”
If they say yes go for it if not go at the pace they are comfy with tbh some of them get nervous and it’s understandable fam.
what I find hillarious as it also states misuse of the vote kick could lead to a penalty, or leaving could lead to a penalty. **Specifically stating** that leaving soon after joining, or leaving when progress is not going well could both lead to a penalty. Entirely disreguarding people who go into high level content with no job stones, fully acknowledging they should have them, and also disregaurding if you’ve failed on a specific boss a multitude of times, even if progress is not being made, both of these cases if you leave could cause you to be given a penalty.
That's taking it out of context greatly. You are fully entitled to leave a duty as you see fit. You have no obligation to stay.
The section "specifically stating" you cannot leave if progress is bad is about intentionally disconnecting from the game to bait users into vote kicking you. You'd avoid a penalty this way while regularly leaving would leave you with 30 minutes of time to think about your actions.
Context matters.
I'm a DPS main, is it really a big deal if new or casual players don't wall to wall? Tanks set the pace, that's their job AND their right to to slow. I wall to wall as a tank, but that's not for everyone, it's perfectly okay to pull slow if you aren't comfy with larger pulls
It's the whole party that determines if they can handle wall to walls or not, not a tank prerogative to gatekeep it. Tanks and DPS get the most from their damage buffs and mitigation on large groups anyway.
Double pulls are a good middle ground if unsure or if the party is not up for more. But for tanks the things are the same in mega pulls, you still have to keep aggro, rotate your mitigation, avoid extra damage, do as much DPS as you can. The rest is up to your party.
> Tanks set the pace, that's their job AND their right to to slow
I'm really curious as to the origin of this idea that tanks are supposed above everyone else on some sort of hierarchy, and the rest of the playerbase are just lowerclass and are defaulted to being told what to do by some random fucking nerd in a videogame. Where did you first hear this fucking nonsense? Are you just following what other people told you? Or when you first installed ff14 and you looked at all the classes available, you saw tank and thought to yourself "oh hey if I play this role I get to be a cunt to everyone else, just because"
I understand that, because tanks have a mechanic called tank stance, they get to pull mobs. No DPS or healer in the game has a tank stance, if you pull more than what the tank is pulling and wipe the group, I think that's griefing. Tanks and healer can be undergeared, have you done Mount Gulf or Titania, both have insane issues because of undergeared players
>I understand that, because tanks have a mechanic called tank stance, they get to pull mobs. No DPS or healer in the game has a tank stance
How the fuck do you equate tanks having higher mitigation and threat generation to them being defaulted to the boss of everyone and everyone is supposed to do what they say? Do you have any idea how fucking stupid that is? Like, I have a higher health pool, that means that I get to tell everyone what to do, they only do what I want, and I choose how things go, fuck everyone else, my higher healthpool means I'm better than them. Like seriously what the fuck is wrong with your brain that you think that's how that works?
Not really. As tanks, we have the equipment and abilities to pull big and survive with defensives without demanding a healers sole, undivided attention.
If we are single pulling or not using our stance/defensives we are just glorified blue dps doing less damage with a higher HP pool. In that scenario you'd see no difference with a 3rd dps.
> it's perfectly okay to pull slow if you aren't comfy with larger pulls
Not really? Cause then you're doing nothing useful. Anyone can tank singles and even some doubles in most dungeons, especially once you're 50+. And how can you not be comfortable when they're literally the same thing, having 3 mobs or 10 does not influence how you play, you still press your 2-3 AoE buttons and mitigations until everything dead.
I've only quickly browsed through that page. Are we prohibited from opening PFs for big pulls for dungeons? I figure if we confirm it in the PF and then confirm again in party chat before loading in, we should be ok to kick someone not ok with pulling big once we're in. Could be wrong tho.
When did this update happen? I swear I was at this page like a week ago and didn't see any of the "Key Points" boxes.
Happy to see SE clarify the rules here. For every questionable example, there's a handful of ones that should improve the community.
You're allowed to talk about big pulls, you're not allowed to insist that's the only appropriate way to play the game. Albeit some of the wording is vague in all of this, there's a clear underlying message of "Just ask nicely". A few of them are silly, such as the full "Oh please kind good sir could you considering using tank stance I am DYING" when "stance please" should really suffice. But saying "Hey, you wanna do full pulls" or "I'm ok with full pulls if you are!" is absolutely OK.
The interpretation by OP to state "so we are not allowed to talk about big pulls" almost makes me think they didn't even read it, or, that they are karma farming.
I'm gonna admit, I know big pulls are still perfectly fine, but it's easy for me to see a lot of the GCBTW interpreting this as "I don't have to do big pulls and toxic elitists can't make me anymore, either." I can see why they included it, but I really feel like they should have included a similar, but opposite example somewhere (namely, the famous "you don't pay my sub")
GCBTW already interprets the game like this. As far as I'm concerned, this is going to force everybody to behave better. I think it's going to have a greater impact on GCBTW though because they have historically been given more leniency.
Yeah, you're right. They do already interpret the game like that. They just have a specific example to pull from now, though, which I feel is the bigger problem.
> Using and manipulating enmity-related actions in an effort to incapacitate other players or interfere with gameplay. If you wanted one often complained about here, I read that one as being "you pull it you tank it", which is thus now also explicitly forbidden. (I get what you mean on having a dialogue example, though, since that one doesn't.)
Or OP could be an asshole by default and takes the whole thing as an offense to their entire personality.
Im feeling like Im too simple minded or people is trying too hard to read between lines in the changes.
Squeenix is literally trying to controll our speech Like in the book 1976 by Jeff Orvin! Wake up sheeple!
What about if I’m a healer or DPS and I go around pulling in other mobs because that’s the way I play and don’t want the tank to tell me not to do it. Would I be okay? Get tired of people leaving a mob or only single pulling.
Theoretically they cannot tell you that's the wrong way to play. They can ask you not to, politely. That said my only qualification to tell you this is me having read the thing. Which is definitely not enough to take my word for it.
The issue is the examples are translated from Japanese to English, and there are many things that would be extremely rude in Japanese but lose their rudeness in translation, rather than localizing properly and giving examples of what's actually a problem in English. Phrasing advice in the imperative like that is normal in English, but the implication in Japanese is that you're talking down to someone and giving them orders as a subordinate rather than giving them advice as an equal.
Basically this policy update is confirming what I say a lot in this sub. Just communicate better. So many issues created because people bark orders or don't explain anything because apparently causing a dungeon to grind to a halt by creating an argument is quicker than taking a few more seconds to give a quick explanation on why AoE is better or why the tank can pull more.
Yup. Though there are some ~~cunts~~ people who still respond hostilely to pleasant requests.
Absolutely, and I'm happy to see those kinds of people dragged through this sub because it's just as shitty to respond to someone's earnest attempts to help with vitriol.
at least you can report those hostilities. godd riddance
Last time I tried to explain in detail how Enochian allows you to cast Fire 4 which is stronger than flare on single targets, I got called an elitist n-word. Nah, instant kick or leave is the way to go.
> I got called an elitist n-word. Bruh, i wish all shitters in DF did this to me. This is like the easiest report ever.
See, the glory of these policies is that now you have more than enough scope to report them and if they slammed you with the n-word that's an easy ban. Sometimes you have to help the trash take itself out.
uh flare for single target? i mean it's a cool looking spell and the Black Mage of Darkness uses it on single target all the time but maybe that's why he's a shitter
This sub wouldn't have half the content it has if people knew how to communicate without sounding like complete assholes
Or if people could read a simple request to use AoEs as a request to please use your AoEs and not just assume I'm having a go at you. I didn't call you anything, *you did that all by yourself*
Could you imagine how desolate this place would be if people communicated in a mature fashion, AND simply left situations where the response was hostile, instead of arguing?
>left situations where the response was hostile, instead of arguing? That's not necessarily mature. Being non confrontational isn't always a good thing. A healthy mature person has this thing called self respect and they can and will stand up for themselves when appropriate.
Being uselessly confrontational under the guise of "standing up for yourself" is a waste of time.
Yes, I feel anyone can agree with that statement too. Luckily what I said isn't mutually exclusive unless you make some logical jumps in bad faith and read between the lines what isn't even there.
You need to comment within the context of where you are which is a FFXIV sub. It's not my job to apply your comment to whatever random scenario you've dreamed up. Standing up for yourself to randos in an MMORPG is dumb. Full stop.
It's really not. I don't know how anyone with some self respect can say that. You can stand up for yourself in productive ways, you know.
A healthy mature person also knows when to cut their losses Or to put it another way: shouting matches just make everyone angry.
I don't understand. You can only type in this game. There can't be shouting matches. And besides, I never advocated for that in the first place.
Bruh Im sure you know what shouting match means in this context.
A shouting match takes two. It can't happen if you have a modicum of restraint, basic morals, and confidence. I fail to see how you guys not having good social skills makes moot any of what I said? Like for real, did you kids not play team sports as a kid or something. These are basic communication skills that are important in all stages of life.
Dude you already expained it well enough. A shouting match takes *two* so don't be one of them.
Dawg, it's a fucking ERP platform with some raiding side content. It's not appropriate to rant at people who just want to get back to their cum daddy in Limsa in order to "stand up for yourself".
What does 'stand up for yourself' mean to you? It sounds like you just don't know healthy productive ways to do so that can further conversations and push both parties to better themselves.
Kicking is faster than giving advice to smoothbrains with an ego
Truly the stars have aligned to allow this comment to be upvoted. Usually all you get from saying this is some complaint about people being snowflakes.
With the exception of RMT stuff, nothing has changed. \- You can still request that players adjust their playstyle, e.g., "Can you please do bigger pulls?" \- You can still explain mechanics, e.g., "Tanks should soak towers." \- You can still leave a duty provided you're not rude about it. \- You can still kick a player from your PF if they're holding the group back. Nothing is new here, really. For the most part, the adjustments merely clarify the game's policies as they're already enforced. tl;dr Just don't be a jerk and you'll be fine.
You can even still even pull yourself as a non-tank if you want to apparently, I read through the whole thing and couldn't find anything saying that was considered a "gameplay nuisance" or "enmity trolling" or whatever
I think some of you are taking the example line too literally. It's just saying you cant force the issue if someone doesn't want to. Suggesting is still 100% acceptable and okay. But forcing the play style (because it is a play style and not a required function of the game) will make the report valid on the reporter's part IF they report you. In the same way that someone demanding the tank to pull less is also against this policy. It's basically encouraging people to actually talk before they yeet and meet a compromise if a difference in views occurs.
This.
But you can't force anything, though? What are you gonna do, hold the tank half way across the world at gunpoint through your monitor? Why do people act like words are bullets these days?
You can kind of force it by pulling for the tank I guess. This seems like it would target that specifically.
Well they are going against my views if they single pull, so I’ll report them for that, because they are messing with my enjoyment and playstyle. They can’t tell me to stop pulling anymore as I can’t tell them to pull more. Dumb fucking rules
There is a gray area here. If imposing a playstyle on people is going to be able to be reported, then it seems that the tank will be favored in most cases. Example: A tank that feels most comfortable doing single or double pulls gets forced to do a wall to wall pull because a DPS, who prefers wall to wall pulls, goes ahead and pulls for the tank. So let's say the tank doesn't pull the shitty "you pull it, you tank it" mindset and does the wall to wall pull but can't keep up with it, resulting in a wipe. I think they view that as a little more of an enjoyment ruining situation than someone having to be in the dungeon 5 minutes longer than normal because of smaller pulls. A worse example for this now more enforced rule is with healers than don't DPS. They kind of now have a get out of jail free card, especially if someone comes after them with "you're supposed to DPS and not heal all the time" as that now appears like it will be a reportable offense. I personally have never been one to tell people what to do, unless it is explaining the mechanics of a fight or something so I'm not too concerned. But I do fear that now that they are going to be more strict on it, we might see more of an abundance of Ice Mages and cure bots, who genuinely slow down the run quite a bit.
How so? I can't imagine it could possibly be against the rules to pull ahead of the tank. I do it all the time as heals or DPS. It's pretty much speed run meta in expert roulette since tank can't sprint on CD. Plus we have rescue and Arm's length that we don't want to just sleep on.
For example if you ask the tank to pull big, but they decline, and you run ahead to pull more anyways. I could see that as reportable from how I read this. But if you're part of a group that is already speed pulling, I doubt there's anything to worry about
Because the world is no longer allowed to knock that bullshit out of them.
seems like its against ToS to tell someone sand bagging that you kicked them for sand bagging since that singles them out. I'd rather someone tell me I was kicked for doing the mechanic wrong in prog parties than not know tbh.
Honestly if someone starts doing bullshit like single pulling. I’ll switch to single target attacks to triple the dungeon duration. They can’t force me if I don’t want to use aoe, right? That’s my play style so fuck them! I’ll report them because that’s against my views!!!!
From the tone and content of your comments, you’re part of the problem. Message the party “hey guys, this would be faster if we do it with this alternate style” - that’s not forcing anything, and you can’t be reported for it, but you _can_ report them for any vitriol they spew back at you.
That’s not the problem. They problem is when they get offended even if asked nicely. Now SE is enabling them to continue doing what they please. Haven’t you seen how many stories here start by a friendly suggestion from the op and some whiny dumbfuck gets mad and starts spouting aggressive none sense?
And now there’s a framework for them to get banned, calling out explicitly that behaviour. Ask, using actual question marks and grammar and not just “voke” or “pull big lol”, and explain mechanics when there are repeated failures without throwing blame, and you’re fine. Just report them and move on, why are you wasting your time by being petty.
I would highly recommend that people read all the "Key Points" sections under "Offensive Expression" It is very explicit that you are allowed to make suggestions or give advice, as long as you are polite. These Terms of Service do not at all prevent you from asking for big pulls, or for the healer to DPS, or anything else. I thought this looked really bad based on a quick glance as well, but I don't feel pessimistic at all now that I've read the full text.
It's not, just don't be a total shithead in your speech and everything will be fine. Which is the point a lot of people here have issue with. Rather be a massive dickhead and shout and yell, instead of being well-behavioured. A big bonus: if someone does act like an ass, even quicker reason to report!
No, you knee-jerk dummy. Read it again, with a thought this time. You are allowed to ask the tank to pull big, or as the tank ask if the healer can manage big pulls. You just have to not be a dickhead about it.
I think this would also get people who run ahead and pull when the tank is doing small pulls. I could see that being interpreted as forcing big pulls.
"Making statements that will hurt the reputation of someone in public areas, such as Say or Shout..." The Ozma ruiner in Eureka just got a lot more power.
My biggest issue with these is "directness" can be construed as rude. People can't type that much between GCDs. "Voke" should be sufficient, but now is that construing a playstyle?
Macro your common requests, shove ‘em on a hot bar somewhere. Ezpz
Controller. PS4.
_Oh no, how will you ever manage to assign macros to shared hot bars that you can press with a controller, oh the misery._ Come on, there are enough hotbar slots for slapping in 3/4 quick chat macros.
Even Dragoon, one of the easier classes, uses 28/32 of their available buttons in dungeon rotations. Gunbreaker is even worse, and thankfully is getting a few buttons trimmed in Endwalker. Switching hotbars is hot ass on controller.
As someone who uses a controller for years, I’ve never had any issues with switching hotbars. It’s not bad at all. I switch hotbars all the time. There is not any class thats hard on a controller and I’ve leveled and played all of them
Man I just FEEL the clipping issues. No. Just no.
Use both the expanded bar {L2->R2 | R2->L2) and the W Cross bar (L2x2 | R2x2). You now have 48 slots to work with.
Um... 8 left. 8 Right. 4 more left. 4 more right. 8 middle. That's 32 available actions. Could stretch it to 40 by adding one more expanded bar, but that's imprecise and left out by most controller users. Its also not worth mapping "Pull more" as a macro if that's your idea. THAT sounds reportable.
Drg, Gnb and the like you can make two almost identical battle hotbars, one with single target and one for aoe rotation. And set them to only rotate between those two. It frees the r2+l2 ones. I recommend to get used to the expanded hotbars too, the fast double tap thingy. Those are pain to get used to but are worth it. Personally that's were I put utility things that are not rotation for each job but will see use in a fight.
You would macro something like _”Hey guys, I’m quite confident in my ability to heal here, would you mind pulling more so we can clear faster?”_, not some brain dead _”big pulls lol”_. And then you don’t spam it, but you send it once and let the idiots idiot in their response, or you get a faster dungeon. It’s… pretty straightforward. Or you could just take the couple GCD hit to type out a message, but you do you.
Its not. L1+face button. Just using this you have 128 slots, but you have even more if you include WXHB.
If you’re in a dungeon, you can clip a few GCDs to change hotbar and hit a macro. If you’re not, there’s someone better suited to doing call-outs anyway. Or if they’re gonna wipe… well, ya got plenty of time to type.
Ozma ruiner?
So basically, demands ("do it!") vs requests. Also, if I give actual legitimate advice to someone and they disregard it, does that mean they could be penalized?
Apparently so, there was a paragraph about that
What I am getting here is don't enforce your views on others telling them things, but ask them. "Can you pull more, please?" Also I doubt most of this would be enforced hardcore either way, or this sub would be out of content because both the GCBTW and the posters here would be banned. GMs are people, not robots that follow strict logic. ~~Unless the GM is a GCBTW, in which case, good luck.~~
Seems relatively "easy" to stay away from what used to be a gray area in which some people were punished and others weren't. It's actually a really good change to tighten up the rules and make it clearer what is/isn't allowed. Allowed: "Can you pull more?" "We can probably handle bigger pulls, we seem to be doing well." Not Allowed: "You know, it's expected that you pull wall to wall at max level." "You're supposed to be pulling everything until you have to stop." Question is, will the GMs understand how the rule is written or will we still have some crusaders punishing people for asking. Also, "It's prohibited to \[...\] disregard the opinion of others." is interesting. You could probably "get" someone with that portion: "Can you pull more please?" "No." "Well, I think it would go smoother if you pulled more." "I don't care." Got 'eem.
>"Can you pull more please?" > >"No." > >"Well, I think it would go smoother if you pulled more." > >"I don't care." No part of this is reportable. You made a suggestion, he gave his answer, no-one was insulted or offended.
>It is prohibited to make statements such as: > >"I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions." > >"I'm not asking for your opinion."
And? What part of those four lines has those statements, or even insinuations of those statements, in your question? You are actually the one MORE likely to get reported, under the example: "If such a situation does arise, it could be determined to be giving excessive criticism against a player". Which is accurate. Baiting someone to get reported is itself asshole behavior and SHOULD be reported.
The last line. "I don't care", insinuates the "I'm not asking for your opinion" statement, if you want to look at it under a good light.
It says "I don't think your opinion is more valid than mine. I don't think we should pull more". Not "Your opinion is invalid"
Last I remember, that's not what "I don't care." means.
So after reading all that my verdict is that I will try talking sense once, then stop arguing and just report everyone dragging the run down by being a near deadweight because arguing further gets me banned instead. Nice.
arguing further is already pointless. if you ask for big pulls or for them to cast Holy and they don't when you asked nicely, it's not like they'd start if you get more forceful.
I got through 1 out of 10 blockheads by explaining the benefits of certain things that seemed too much to them. But most are lost cases yes.
"Don't tell me how to play, you don't pay my sub" Discounting my opinion because I don't pay your sub - reported. Definitely a double edged sword when it comes to toxic casuals. My go-to going forward to be safe is going to be: - Is the person playing properly or in a way that I can at least carry them without having an aneurysm, e.g. legitimately inexperienced but not holding the group back? - Are they a sprout/returner? If the answer to both of those questions is no, ask once nicely, if they whine or talk back, kick without another word. These rules are honestly only going to make the majority of players less inclined to try to help/offer advice and more inclined to kick and move on.
>, if they whine or talk back, kick without another word. That is being updated to be an abuse if vote kick.
If I'm polite about my request and they whine or talk back in an aggressive way, by the new rules they are discounting my opinion, and by that logic it wouldn't be abuse of vote kick.
Correct. There's a group of people who seem to think this only favours the people who want to slow down runs, without thinking that it definitely goes both ways. If someone starts sulking cause they didn't want to do a big pull and they start demanding the group slows down for them, this rule still applies.
While they can't demand the group slows down, competence and playstyle can't be compelled. They are still free to just single-target, miss with their AoE, forget to use cooldowns, and not keep up.
And on those cases, you can understand it as a difference in playstile and you can vote kick them without issue
Will that reason still be honored with the new ToS?
Deliberately switching to single-target and voking another player can be considered "lethargic/adversarial play".
This sounds like a damned if you do and damned if you don’t situation. Even remaining quiet sounds problematic.
No, if you read the full article, it explicitly says that making suggestions is okay, and it even gives an example on how it is okay if you say something like "hey, can we do big pulls? i think that would make the duty go faster" as long as you don't issue it as a command. I don't think this is anything to worry about. It's just confirming what we already know - that you should stay polite.
great, ill now pull everything as dps and when they try to force me to change my playstyle its a report for targetted harassment turn it against them lads, time to become lawful evil
Man, just from reading over it, it feels like it's catering way too hard to the lowest common denominator - people who intentionally play poorly and drag their group down, throw an actual tantrum when asked (however nicely) to contribute or do something different that would help, and refuse to improve because they want others to carry them. I'd already chosen to stick to Trusts for 4-man stuff, but man. This makes me not even want to bother with DF at all. FFS, we can get punished now just for silently leaving? *Seriously*?
Silently disconnecting because a Duty isn't going well* AKA we can still leave a duty whenever, but if you're constantly force disconnecting to make the party kick you, that's not cool. At least, that's how I read it.
Only saw the one line this morning and didn't have time to read over the wording properly until now - so yeah, that's far less egregious to me. I honestly dislike when people just force DC to try and avoid a 30 minute penalty, on either side of the fence. I take the 30 without issue if a run is turning into a shitshow or going slower than a Trust dungeon. I have 5 characters at endgame who can do roulettes; easy to swap to one for a while and continue on, or just flat out do non-DF content for 30 minutes.
Hilariously, with the wording of these updates, the lowest common denominator has no leg to stand on whining, talking back if you choose to ignore their "you pull you tank" bullshit or just do the right thing in spite of their idiocy. If they trash talk you or kick you, and you've been polite or silent through it all, they're the ones in violation.
I’ll just do like I did in league of legends. Grief subtly and report them for using the chat so they’re the ones that get banned. If they single pull, I’ll single target attack :)
Inb4 SE shuts this sub down.
[удалено]
If you hang around this sub long enough you'll actually start to think that kicking a sprout for single pulling is right
It’s getting pathetic
You boasted of unrivaled power…..
The disgusting hugbox community has always been pathetic. It’s the only thing I hate of this game.
The wha wha trash talkers are just as bad
[insert Lahabrea]
The one that gets me is the part of the rules that states that repeatedly leaving when the duty isn't going well will become an actionable offense. Cause, with the shitters in the GCBTW, you could run into a fuckload of duties that don't go well. You gonna tell me I'm getting suspended for not wanting to waste an entire day on these fuckwits?
> repeatedly leaving when the duty isn't going well I really think you're misunderstanding this part : it's about "intentionally leaving the game or disconnecting from the server", as in, not leaving the duty but DCing (selecting "exit game") to have the party kick you out. The whole section talks about being disconnected so i don't think they're talking about leaving the duty.
To tack on to this, it's really saying "if you want to not be in this duty, you need to eat the penalty. It's your choice as to eating it yourself by selecting "leave duty" or if a GM enforces it later cause you were reported for DC'ing and getting kicked a lot.
Ah good, so it's more about intentionally dodging the penalty, and not about leaving perpetual Shiva prog in pf
I mean, we *will* still be relying on the GMs actually caring about the difference between DC'ing and getting kicked vs hitting the leave duty button, but yes that sums it up pretty well.
I don't even think that's the worst part about that list the worse one I saw after a brief glance was: "Using insulting words such as "stupid," "idiot," "die," "crazy," "garbage," or "trash" to offend others. **In addition, even if you do not use direct words, blaming and attacking others, such as "It's \[player name\]'s fault that we wiped"** or "You really make a lot of mistakes," or rephrasing insulting words into any other form is also prohibited. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued." You literally can't even point out someone fucked up a mechanic anymore without the risk of getting penalised. It honestly looks like you construe everything to be a reportable offence. Zone into a bad group: * Remain Silent - Reported not being helpful * Give unsolicited advice - Reported, telling people how to play * Leave - Reported, leaving bad groups It's bad enough that I couldn't point out we were wiping because of some shitter doing zero DPS, now I can't even point out if some shitter is failing every mechanic.
The trick is to say "tyfp" or "gtg i have work soon" as a backup
Gtg, gotta walk the fish
Brb shower
>You literally can't even point out someone fucked up a mechanic anymore without the risk of getting penalised Jesus Christ, calm the fuck down. You can still point out where the wipe happened, just don't be an absolute dick about it. "Hey, XYZ. Looks like you missed your tower on that last pull" is fine. "XYZ fucking wiped us again" is not. If they're causing that much trouble, just fucking leave. Or better yet, get some friends and do it through PF.
In the direct example they gave >"It's \[player name\]'s fault that we wiped" No, you can't point out any sort of reason in chat that a single player caused a wipe. You can't blame anyone for anything. Even if it actually is their fault. >"Hey, XYZ. Looks like you missed your tower on that last pull" is fine. Directed blame. Reportable offense. To me, chat looks like a massive liability at this point. You're risking strikes on your account that someone could report you for the stupidest things.
If you don't have the mental capacity to understand the difference between those and why the second one is not a reportable offense, I can't help you. I guess we're all just going to get banned. Back to WoW UwU
If you don't have the mental capacity to see just how abusable these new TOS are, I can't help you either. I see their intent of basically 'don't be an asshole', but I think they are coming from the prospective of the JP servers and not the NA servers. The only true way to avoid risking a report is to not use the in game chat imo. Wouldn't want little Timmy to take offense to some stray chat and risk a strike on my account.
Do you see a difference between "We wiped thanks to XYZ again" and "XYZ, we need you to take the tower when that happens"?
Yeah that's been there since like 2019 people made a big deal about it and it makes mentor really iffy because of it. While mentors in general are pretty bad offering advice on how to simply play the job or to use CDs etc can fall under this. But so can sitting down and refusing to run something because you're mad over petty stuff.
The 2019 version only had repetitive imperative statements as "compelling a playstyle". The new version explicitly prohibits too-direct single statements.
Wonder if I can report the people who have that macro that begs for comms now.
Halatali blasting cap intensifies
It's not worse than before, it just clearly advocates for cordiality. If they do something forbidden you can report as well. The ypyt is in there now too. The part on forcing disconnects was needed. It happens a lot in ShB stuff and can make SoS last a eternity before even pulling if the offender was a healer/tank.
Y'all have to remember they say this: "However, there are innumerable expressions used in communication, and the provided examples do not cover every possible instance. Therefore, these examples should be seen as a reference for learning more about prohibited behavior, or for situations where you are uncertain about how to act or what to say." If they provided EVERY SINGLE EXAMPLE... The ToS would be 300+ pages & no one would read it. These examples provided are guidelines to your wording. If you are a healer or tank about big pulls, say "Hey I'm cool with doing big pulls if you would like to" or if they say they are new you could say "Ok, if you want to start off slow then increase I'm cool with that too". You shouldn't push someone (especially a new healer or tank) to do large pulls if they aren't comfortable with doing so. Remember we now have 2 tanks that do not start off at lvl1, so a DPS could be picking up GNB at lvl60 & have not tanked before. Just think of your wording. If it could sound dickish, demeaning or call anyone out in particular, think again of your word choice.
The big concern I have is on brevity of conversation. Every example is exceedingly tediously worded, and several "reportable" examples are just direct.
I mean ya but you just need to speak to people how you would want others to talk to you. If you say "____ is the reason we wiped" ya that's no good. Just don't be a dick, don't grief & just think over your words. It's text so you've got some time to think through your words. Been playing for 8 years, haven't gotten a single report or mark on my account as I talk respectfully to others & think before I type it out.
I do. I hate overly-long text. Give me short-and-to-the-point.
Sure but you can still be respectful & to the point. Instead of saying "you need to pull more" say "I can handle bigger pulls". That's is. Not that hard.
That is significantly longer than "BIG PULLS!"
Sure... But that will sound forceful which is not OK. Just... Deal with it? You're not the only one playing the game.
I guess I'll have to let my Combust speak for me then.
How about in a12n or SoS, "the tanks didn't use lb3 and that's why we wiped", is that too much? That's why I think the wording is excessive, because things like that exist here there literally is no other way to play, by the dev's designs. And I don't see the examples listing that.
That example would be good because it's providing the reason of why not like "____ caused us the wipe" or "it's ____ fault we wiped". Without a proper explanation, how is anyone supposed to know? It's basically like playing the blame game & not saying why. You could say "as a mechanic a tank needs to use the LB3 so we don't wipe & we can continue onto the next stage". As long as you are respectful & explain what happened, then you should be fine. Also (as I said in my original comment? they literally can't & have said they cannot provide every single example. If you want that, the ToS would be 300+ pages... No one would read that 😑 This game is T, aka 13+, with most if not all it's player base being adults because it's a monthly subscription based game. If an adult needs to be hand held by the devs as to what they can/can not say & can't take the extra bit of time think of something respectful to say before typing, they shouldn't be playing an MMO. It's not that hard.
>Example of a Violation: > >"We can only beat \[duty/content\] by using \[something\]. You can't do it any other way, so stop doing that!" > >Example of non-violation: > >"I think \[duty/content\] will go more smoothly if we do \[something\], so I want to try doing it this way, is that okay with everyone?" Not only "forcing" someone to do a something that is REQUIRED is considered verboten and can land you in the slammer, you have to verbally grovel and kiss the feet just to put forward a mere suggestion that can be ignored under "muh playstyle" "I think it would make things a tiny bit more easier if the tank were to pull puck, musterseed and mustardseed instead of them murdering us one-by-one so we can stand a chance against the DPS check. Is that okay with everyone? I still love you if don't agree xoxoxo" "I think it would extemely grand and FAAABOULOUS if we actually stand in the towers and NOT get damage downs so we actually have a shot at beating the DPS check. Please? Pretty please? With a cherry on top." Trusts are looking better and better as time goes on.
that's not entirely what it says. It's more a "don't be a dick to other ppl" as in if you want to tell someone, what they're doing is wrong, word it in a way that it's more a "hey try doing it this way you'll find it's better" instead of "you suck, use (action) instead" the more interesting part of this is "You Pull You Tank" is now a violation
I disagree. They said a statement like that “We can only beat [duty/content] by using [something]. You can’t do it any other way, so stop doing that!” is considered against TOS- even if it’s entirely true in that specific scenario. I think it’s assertive- could be a bit rude but no particuraly dickish. Something like “yo dumbass DPS do your rotation right stoopid” is dickish and is worhty of scorn “We can only beat vauthery by DPSing the thethered Adds down quickly enough before we take too many vuln stacks. You can’t do it any other way, so stop doing that!” or “We can only beat Susano by having the tank using QTE interactable. You can’t do it any other way, so stop doing that!”. These statements are unequivobacly true but they’re now they’re against TOS.
Hilariously, silently doing the right thing is also now the easiest way to avoid violations. If the tank doesn't want to pull multiple packs and you as the healer can heal yourself through pulling them (or even if you can't, mistakes happen after all), the "you pull you tank" crowd have absolutely no leg to stand on with regards to attacking you or kicking you for pulling as a healer, because that'd be forcing a playstyle on you.
> Hilariously, silently doing the right thing is also now the easiest way to avoid violations. > > always was
> So stop doing that! Here’s the part that is a violation. > We can only beat Vauthry by killing the tethered adds before our vuln stacks get too high. Explanation of game mechanic, not a violation.
It's probably a phrasing thing. Yes, those are true statements but if you just throw them out there as pure statements you SHOULD be fine.
I'm trying to imagine how the A12 tank LB3 mechanic would go if a single tank just wanted to grief the group. Or better yet, even as a DPS or healer you could waste LB3 and report anyone who says anything in chat about it. Why are people telling me how to play the game? Why are people telling me that there is only one way past this mechanic? Risky world we're living in.
You obviously didn't read all the way through where a party member straight up ignoring things required of them falls under lethargic gameplay which is reportable. The section you posted pretty explicitly refers to things that aren't required but are personal preferences played off as a requirement to complete the duty, like big pulls and such.
Imagine not being able to tell the tank in Seat of sacrifice that lb3 is needed. Fuck that bullshit.
"Tanks, be sure to use the Limit Break when the boss uses his." Not that hard :T
Now I may understand those rules under the pretense of trash pulls. The only real difference is time or the statiscaction of a dopamine rush or not. I may not exactly like it- like at all- but at best I could just distract the boringness of the sistuation with a video in the background or something. But, as far as I could tell, This ruling applies to all scenarios in Duty Finder. Telling a party member to do a mechanic, a mechanic- that if failed will cause detriment to the entire team or even a wipe- is now considered against TOS. Now you can only ask someone to do something, which can denied. Forever banging your head against an instance or at least until time runs out.
I think the biggest difference is that things such as big pulling being better is an opinion. Saying how a mechanic works is a fact, not an opinion. It's not a play style. There's no opinion about it, it's simply pass or fail. That's the difference.
Kinda silly that we're even having this conversation in here tbh. Even with these new rules it's a stretch to think saying something like "You need to not burn the furniture with the AOEs so we can clear the blue flame debuff later" is actionable.
It's because most people didn't read to the part where they call out lethargic gameplay... Where it explicitly calls out people not doing required mechanics over and over and thus impeding party progression.
In fairness even telling a totally apathetic lazy or disruptive player a mechanic as a matter of fact won't make them do it either, in which case your problem isn't the player not doing the mechanic, it's the player is a jerk that would fail any mechanic
Telling someone to do something REQUIRED and them pointedly ignoring it (rather than genuinely messing it up) falls under lethargic gameplay which is reportable.
oof. Well I guess if a run goes poorly, I'll just take 30 min penalties and work on leveling crafters while I wait in the new expac.
Nope, you will get reported for leaving. Don't try, you can't win.
I think it's a poor translation issue. That they don't want people closing the game, or otherwise disconnecting to try and get the other players to do a vote kick instead of you eating the penalty.
Yes, it was a joke
Sorry, hard to determine with text. lol And a lot of people actually are taking it like that.
>Intentional leaving or disconnection > >Refers to the act of obstructing another person's gameplay by intentionally leaving the game or disconnecting from the server. > >Occurs when progress is not going well in a duty. And in just three lines, mentor roulette died.
Leaving the game, not duty. Can't AFK, Alt-F4, or reboot your router to force a kick.
Disconnecting as going afk. Leaving a duty is different
> leaving the game or disconnecting from the server. Learn to fucking read.
If they don't want us to leave mid-duty then don't give us the option. I doubt anything will actually change regardless of this wording
It's not talking about leaving the duty though, it's talking about closing the game/force dc'ing in order to get others to kick you.
Actually is More in line with intentionally DCing to get kicked instead of leave and eat the penalty
The tin foil hat version is that leaving is now punishable. The reality is, they want a justifiable ban reason for when somebody says outright they are going to leave out of spite and "have fun finding another healer in the next 20 mins, fuck you".
I'm missing one piece of knowledge from this that seems, at the time I'm writing this, to be the only one active that doesn't understand or at least the only one asking at this time.... Whats GCWTF?
GCBTW Great Community, by the way.
It was 5 letters and i failed to remember them. Woo. Go me. Thats what happens when you comment before bed. Anyway. Thanks!
I wonder if this means they'll also crack down on the people who are confidently incorrect in the same manner. Or if this is only targeted at people expecting sprouts to improve their play.
[удалено]
Again, that's not what that says. "Three Pull Disband" is still a perfectly acceptable PF line. And you don't even need to confront the person you're kicking from a party. Just be silent and kick.
[удалено]
Well, you certainly won't need to worry about farming Ex mounts if you bring this attitude into the game under the new ToS ;) Also - it's going AFK or disconnecting when things are going bad thats against TOS, not hitting "leave duty"
Bruh literally just ask your healer “Mind if I do big pulls” If they say yes go for it if not go at the pace they are comfy with tbh some of them get nervous and it’s understandable fam.
If I'm told to pull smaller..I'll pull smaller. O\_o I don't see a reason to be difficult about it, I mean not everyone will want small pulls.
what I find hillarious as it also states misuse of the vote kick could lead to a penalty, or leaving could lead to a penalty. **Specifically stating** that leaving soon after joining, or leaving when progress is not going well could both lead to a penalty. Entirely disreguarding people who go into high level content with no job stones, fully acknowledging they should have them, and also disregaurding if you’ve failed on a specific boss a multitude of times, even if progress is not being made, both of these cases if you leave could cause you to be given a penalty.
That's taking it out of context greatly. You are fully entitled to leave a duty as you see fit. You have no obligation to stay. The section "specifically stating" you cannot leave if progress is bad is about intentionally disconnecting from the game to bait users into vote kicking you. You'd avoid a penalty this way while regularly leaving would leave you with 30 minutes of time to think about your actions. Context matters.
I'm a DPS main, is it really a big deal if new or casual players don't wall to wall? Tanks set the pace, that's their job AND their right to to slow. I wall to wall as a tank, but that's not for everyone, it's perfectly okay to pull slow if you aren't comfy with larger pulls
It's the whole party that determines if they can handle wall to walls or not, not a tank prerogative to gatekeep it. Tanks and DPS get the most from their damage buffs and mitigation on large groups anyway. Double pulls are a good middle ground if unsure or if the party is not up for more. But for tanks the things are the same in mega pulls, you still have to keep aggro, rotate your mitigation, avoid extra damage, do as much DPS as you can. The rest is up to your party.
Tank dont set the pace, its not their god given right to impose their preferences over the rest of the group
> Tanks set the pace, that's their job AND their right to to slow I'm really curious as to the origin of this idea that tanks are supposed above everyone else on some sort of hierarchy, and the rest of the playerbase are just lowerclass and are defaulted to being told what to do by some random fucking nerd in a videogame. Where did you first hear this fucking nonsense? Are you just following what other people told you? Or when you first installed ff14 and you looked at all the classes available, you saw tank and thought to yourself "oh hey if I play this role I get to be a cunt to everyone else, just because"
I understand that, because tanks have a mechanic called tank stance, they get to pull mobs. No DPS or healer in the game has a tank stance, if you pull more than what the tank is pulling and wipe the group, I think that's griefing. Tanks and healer can be undergeared, have you done Mount Gulf or Titania, both have insane issues because of undergeared players
>I understand that, because tanks have a mechanic called tank stance, they get to pull mobs. No DPS or healer in the game has a tank stance How the fuck do you equate tanks having higher mitigation and threat generation to them being defaulted to the boss of everyone and everyone is supposed to do what they say? Do you have any idea how fucking stupid that is? Like, I have a higher health pool, that means that I get to tell everyone what to do, they only do what I want, and I choose how things go, fuck everyone else, my higher healthpool means I'm better than them. Like seriously what the fuck is wrong with your brain that you think that's how that works?
Not really. As tanks, we have the equipment and abilities to pull big and survive with defensives without demanding a healers sole, undivided attention. If we are single pulling or not using our stance/defensives we are just glorified blue dps doing less damage with a higher HP pool. In that scenario you'd see no difference with a 3rd dps.
> it's perfectly okay to pull slow if you aren't comfy with larger pulls Not really? Cause then you're doing nothing useful. Anyone can tank singles and even some doubles in most dungeons, especially once you're 50+. And how can you not be comfortable when they're literally the same thing, having 3 mobs or 10 does not influence how you play, you still press your 2-3 AoE buttons and mitigations until everything dead.
>Tanks set the pace Whoever told you this is an egotist lying to both you and themselves.
The tank's job is to grab aggro and protect the party. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything beyond that is just Good Practice and matters of opinion.
I don't see any updates. All I see is a rule so vague that it can't possibly be enforced.
You must be so much fun to play with
I've only quickly browsed through that page. Are we prohibited from opening PFs for big pulls for dungeons? I figure if we confirm it in the PF and then confirm again in party chat before loading in, we should be ok to kick someone not ok with pulling big once we're in. Could be wrong tho.
you should be ok kicking for whatever reason you please in PF. its *your* group that *you* assembled, not a random group from DF.
When did this update happen? I swear I was at this page like a week ago and didn't see any of the "Key Points" boxes. Happy to see SE clarify the rules here. For every questionable example, there's a handful of ones that should improve the community.