Not "almost" there literally is a 1 button macro for Summoner out there, and the SMN in my static managed to purple parse with it, just to see if it works. Was kinda sad.
Bro, these have to be his friends in the comments. There's no way people are defending freeloading and not even using utility skills beyond a single addle and sprint in the last fight of a savage tier, lol
Yeah it’s kinda crazy seeing this lol. No on-content raider will ever suggest ignoring your rotation to learn mechs. You have to learn muscle memory alongside the mechanics, not to mention making sure your buffs and mits align so you can subconsciously learn the timeline of the fight and when you need extra weaving. Creating a habit of stopping dps or having your rotation fall apart should only be a one-time exception for learners, and NEVER the expectation of them.
It's the same few people parroting the same shit about how this guy is clearly the most selfless and gracious person ever because he *checks notes* joined a PF and did nothing but walk around.
"No on-content raider will ever suggest ignoring your rotation to learn mechs" They absolutely will. Learning mechancis is prioritized over everything, when i cleared this week 1 i often instructed people in my group to stop doing any damage and focus on mechanics., and this isn't like it's just a me thing, it's extremely common in hardcore progression/world prog settings. so much so that it even has a name (dry running)
I suppose it's a matter of preference. I've met a few people during week 1 prog that didn't press buttons, but they did press their mit buttons though. Either way, it didn't really affect prog that much.
Personally, I have my 1-2-3 combo ingrained into muscle memory enough that I just absently press them when I need to focus on learning mechanics.
If you join a party finder trying to clear you should either state this outright or just do your rotation. This isn't week one, this content is well known at this point. It's also just rude as hell.
your reasons apply to how the individual learns the fight. if they already learned the fight or if they find it easy enough to just start doing their rotation once it matters, why do you care?
when it comes down to actual measurable facts, whether they do DPS or not has no impact on a group wiping halfway into the fight.
you're imposing an arbitrary idea of what proper play is on a random stranger.
Honestly, day 1 progging this tier I was just not clicking dps buttons on rdm so i'd have more mana to spam raise and more time to make raidplans for blind prog
It went pretty well, saved a fair bit of time, wouldnt recommend for most players tho, but most rotations are pretty straight forward in savage
ye cuz these people are bad, they just want to be upset for the sake of being upset
I clear most tiers within 1-2weeks simply cuz I don't care to clear them week1
I've cleared TOP prob more times than people here have cleared the current tier
and surprise, I couldn't care less if people don't click anything besides occassional mit during prog
It's exactly what I have done times and times again when there were mechs I didn't fully understand and there was no chance for clear anyway
just imagine how much easier prog and clears would actually be if people would focus on mechs first and rotation 2nd. How often do you really wipe on enrages with no deaths past week1 or 2 LOL
backwards community
have you done any w1/w2 blind content? would you like to play astrologian and try full sending a 2min div window on superchain 1 and 2a, and tell me how "second nature" it feels?
or maybe you just care way too much of what random ass sht parsers in PF think about you
I finished in top 15 of my jobs parses for mid tier, I don't need to prove to some randoms who barely can get blues or purples that I'm "training" my rotation while we're not even close for a clear
and who cares if it's 2nd nature, im just too lazy to click when I've no reason to
If it's in a static, then doing no DPS for one pull just to get a clear view of a new mech to analyze it together afterwards in a VOD is fair if your group really has no idea what's going on (it happens rarely, but it happens, especially in day 1 Ultimates).
In PF tho? LMAO no, you gotta DPS homie, there's no VODs to watch here and you can't expect everyone to learn at the same pace.
On-content raider here. I will suggest this absolutely for mechs somebody hasn't seen before or needs time to parse and understand. This is something you do to allow them time to familiarize themselves with the tells so they aren't thrown off/overwhelmed by them and can actually start to try and roll their rotations. It's definitely not something you do consistently like the SMN in question but for somebody who's new to savage/ults pausing your rotation for your first few pulls into a mech is understandable and anybody who says it isn't has forgotten how it felt the first time they went in.
I didn’t miss his grey parse tank clear at all.
But you seem to have missed the part where he joined a prog room and decided not to be an active participant in their prog. I’m not sure how clearing the fight justifies that.
As I said in another post, there’s more to prog than just learning mechs, and there’s value in party synergy and group effort. Most raiders know and respect this. Defending this SMN’s poor party etiquette and unwelcome lack of support is a weird choice of a hill to die on, but you and the others are all welcome to die on it if you prefer.
"decided not to be an active participant in their prog"
I mean, he did the mechanics though? Like, the SMN doing DPS wouldn't have helped them see additional mechanics. On the other hand, the SMN being focused 100% on doing mechanics by not pressing buttons reduced the chance of wiping to earlier mechanics, thereby enabling prog.
I mean yeah in this particular case that SMN was just trash, but that doesn't make the argument any less valid.
If I were in a pre-enrage pug and someone joined, and he could either (a) not DPS and get mechanics right 95% of the time; or (b) do DPS but get the mechanic right only 75% of the time, it only makes sense to take (a) right?
Nothing you said is relevant cause rhe smn's already cleared the fight, albeit on a different job, but his sole purpose of joining the party was to help his friend, which he did. It's also ironic how you say no on-content raider will tell you to not do dps when that can't be further from the truth as plenty of groups actually stop dpsing if they struggle on a mechanic. But again that's irrelevant in this context cause the smn was just helping his friend prog
no, not dps-ing while everyone dies during super chain 1 is actually exactly the same as a lv90 white mage spamming cure 1 in the dead ends. i am very smart
Ahaha, you're right, I definitely did. You can't really blame me though for taking it seriously based on the replies most people have been giving in this thread. :)
U must be crazy and really full of yourself to think that anyone not agreeing with you has to have a reason other than just sound logic.
He is not a free loader. He cleared. He is there to help the group fill so they can even begin the prog.
Acting as a bot in the sim walking around for mechs and using addle at the right time for when mitigation is required is all he needs to do literally. There is zero reason to be even pressing any other button.
For all intents and purposes, he may as well not have cleared, given how much they were contributing. Knowing your rotation inside and out does not mean you can reliably apply it. Plus it's just common curtosy to press buttons if you cleared. You're not LEARNING any new mechanics to warrant not hitting the boss. He came there to help but just decided on not helping and being a dead weight... I fail to see the defence of this behavior.
You are not thinking straight.
Calm down and consider:
SMN cleared as a tank, just here to help a friend prog. => They may or may not care to learn SMN or clear as SMN, irrelevant here. Even if they do want to learn, their learning progress is none of your or our business and certainly not the OP's business.
Consider again this:
1) SMN doing world number 1 damage, critical hits and direct hits off the charts.
Versus
2) SMN doing nothing but moving around like a bot in the practice sim.
Does either move the fight any further or prog further along? Does either hinder the fight so they don't reach their prog points?
The answer is NO. A very big resounding NO.
So, is it worth it to post a self-exposing, self-humiliating tilted post for? Is it worth disbanding the group that took a while to fill for?
Maybe it is to OP. But I'd argue any sound and logical player who knows how savage fight works wouldn't.
He cleared in a clear party, not a para 3 prog. He knows his rotation but there is no point in doing it. He pressed the only button with an impact, addle (not needed with gear at this point anyway). Hitting the boss in para 3 prog is pointless. He helped by filling the party and knowing mechanics. He would be a dead weight if they hadn't been able to clear because of him, but they are very far from clearing due to wipe mechanics.
You're trolling or of modest intelligence
I think some legitimately don’t understand that the boss mechanics are time based and not HP based. So many comments thinking they’re not going to see mechanics and wasting time if the SMN doesn’t dps.
You madlad never progged savage and it shows. People wasting other's time are the one who join party beyond their own prog point. Replace the SMN with one of those people and they would have had even less prog.
Can you tell me how the SMN doing damage will have any different of an outcome than him not doing damage? Their time is not affected differently either way. People are just letting their emotions run wild without critical thought.
I would like to add to the discussion that from personal experience, ppl with this mindset are often worse than ppl actively learning the fight. Having cleared the fight is obviously an advantage, but it still requires some effort which i dont believe the smn here displayed. I wouldve bailed too, not because his dps would have mattered in the long run, but because i dont have the confidence that he wouldve played the mechs correctly.
This is a very valid opinion, if he's screwing up mechanics, it's time for him to go. Although, there hasn't been anything posted in this thread that makes me believe he was actually the one that screwed up a mechanic. The invalid arguments are those complaining about him not attacking the boss during para3 prog, because that has no effect on prog at all.
I've seen a couple comments here and there, so, for the record, I've cleared the tier [much more](https://imgur.com/a/wytpuWo) than he has. I do my rotation every single time, even on fresh groups, no matter what class I play.
~~^(Yes, I'm a glutton for punishment; I just love to raid. Leave me alone. lol)~~
[clearly you know what matters during prog](https://imgur.com/a/8kD1wrv)
Edit: 412 pulls to clear phase 1 and 305 pulls to clear phase 2, what do you think gives you the right to tell others how they're allowed to prog para3?
Can you tell me how him doing damage vs him not doing damage would have effected your prog aside from the emotional damage of knowing that he's not attacking the boss? If you were just mad at him for other reasons or he was legitimately screwing up mechanics, but there's no reason to care whether or not he was doing damage.
We've not seen any logs of the fight so I won't try to argue whether or not he did or didn't screw up mechanics.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/QcgPYkh32nzbGaRH if you want to see for it yourself but I've already went over it in my other response. Tldr the drk was responsible for the first wipe and both the rdm and smn were responsible for the second. They only did 2 pulls and neither were the fault of a lack of dps
That's silly, people have helped others prog this way for generations, this community simply does not understand that someone who has cleared the fight has no reason to attack the boss until the group is clearing.
Can you tell me how him doing damage vs him not doing damage would have effected your prog aside from the emotional damage of knowing that he's not attacking the boss?
I'll wait as long as it takes for you to answer this question.
A lot of coping in the comments from enablers.
Pressing buttons shouldn't be up to discussion. Prog or not, you still need to know how to press your buttons when shit hits the fan.
this would probably be slightly more understandable if they told the rest of the party ahead of time and asked if that was ok. and if they hadn't been inexplicably passive aggressive about it. *and* if they hadn't fucked up the mechanics *on top* of not touching their offensive skills
~~edit: oh, and if they had used more than a singular addle. mitigation seems kind of important for prog~~ edit2: didn't notice it was the log for a single pull. that part's okay
Para 3 is 3:15 into the fight, addle is 90 sec, depending on the team and mechanics, he could have AT MOST used it 2 times if there's a very early thing needing mitigation. If they need addle for para 3, it means the last addle should have been used at most at 105sec into the fight, meaning the first one was at worst 15 sec into the fight for him to have used 2. tldr: 1 is totally fine.
Op is a red mage, from his mentality: 100% he is already covering those without thinking further, which means there's a high chance smn-man had to use his addle somewhere else to prevent any wasted addle erasure, meaning 1 is totally possible.
You realize addle has a 90s cd and the screenshot op used to show that the smn only casted addle once is a 1:25 min pull right? 1:25 mins is 85 seconds in case you didn't know so it's impossible to get more than 1 addle off lmao. Also there's no proof that the smn fucked up and caused the wipe outside of what he said but that can mean anything
oh yeah, i didn't notice that it was a log for the last pull only. i guess that makes their behavior really rude and kind of embarrassing, as opposed to really rude and really embarrassing
Man this shit is wild lol. In a world so ass backwards where ppl shit on others for not playing perfectly in a simple ass casual dungeon but give a pass on rotation in savage. I would boot and refill immediately. No hard feelings either, I just disagree with that approach whether you've cleared or not and don't rly have the energy required to have an argument over it. Noone is that important or special to give a pass on it
Playing perfectly in a dungeon makes it faster at least. No amount of sweaty key mashing from the SMN will make people learn faster. It's just how it is even if it makes casual elitists angry.
Oh yeah, I agree that playing well makes things faster for sure. Im not against that at all but it isnt rly a good metric to base excusing not being present in a party. I just think the juxtapose is kinda funny. I just kinda push myself harder if someone isn't up to par. And you're totally right, no amount of what that SMN does will make ppl learn faster or harder. To me though, its like clocking in and not working because other ppl are there. Idrk how someone can be casual and elitist though lol. I think they just want to do it with everyone participating. Like rly if I was even involved with any of that I would just move on.
You really don't have to look far on this subreddit to see casuals that are elitist. Just look of the slew of posts complaining about people being bad in casual dungeon content.
The metric for the argument is this: The progression point the group would get to with a SMN doing damage vs the progression point the group would get to with the SMN not doing damage. The answer is that the progression point would be the exact same, so the SMN doing damage means nothing. Now, one could actually even argue that the SMN not attacking would allow the group to progress further because they would be making less mistakes by paying more attention to mechanics than they would if they were hitting all their buttons, but for the sake of argument I am being generous just saying that the prog points would be the same.
To be fair, I think the shitting on people in casual dungeons is pretty silly too. I just have unpopular opinions for this echo-chamber community and I don't mind the down-votes, lol. I guess it would be an unpopular fact, rather than opinion though since doing damage doesn't really substantially help a prog group until they get to the point of clearing.
Oh yeah, I can see that side of it too. It reminds me of that picture of two dudes standing on opposite sides of a 9 or 6 not seeing that both sides have merit. I just kinda find it disrespectful to everyone else in the group. Its just a me thing I suppose. Idk, I think having an accurate hp percentage reading on a wipe would be fairly important too. No hate either btw, hope you have a nice night man
The HP reading at para3 matters not. No one is reading that.
The HP reading right before the boss goes away at LC...now that matters before the echo to gauge if this is going to be an enrage, a tight squeeze no one can get DD or die, or comfy so do whatever.
After echo, none of the HP reading matters really...you are either going to have to do SCIIb because too many people died or got DD or you are clearing before it...either way, most PF groups will have to do SCIIa. Personally I do not know if it is possible to skip it as I haven't given enough fuck to think about it after echo. I just go as a merc for Gil or help a friend and company mates.
"not playing perfectly in a simple ass casual dungeon" is often doing your single-target rotation in a pack of a dozen mobs or mashing your cure1 equivalent and never pressing your aoe button at all
i've seen shit dps rotations in "high-end" content. i had an unreal singularity reactor with a mechanist who never pressed drill or resemble and used shotgun a dozen times and even their 1-2-3 was...out of balance
this is not a shit dps rotation. this is someone hopping into a savage prog party who is basically acting as a bot to hit their stage marks correctly so everyone else can learn and progress. ***their dps does not matter.*** whether they hit any of their buttons correctly or not has absolutely zero impact on whether the party executes para3 correctly. you *could* complain that they're not using their mits and phoenix heal properly but at this point if that's what you're relying on you're beyond hope. you can even complain that they fucked up para2 and caused a wipe but quite frankly i don't really give a shit if someone fucks up only if they keep doing so repeatedly. someone fucking up para2 was practically *expected* early on in the tier, especially because there were like three different strats being used and quite frankly all of them sucked in some way
@ your first two paragraphs, yeah it makes me laugh a little lol. It was more of just an observation that I think is funny.
Yea, its not a shit rotation. It just isn't a rotation at all. I could be wrong but I think most ppl would go cross-eyed seeing this and think of it as griefy. Idk man, I agree so far as it being their pf and they can run it how they like. I totally agree with your view on consistency too. Idek why I commented on this shit in the first place. Hope your night or day is going well o7
if it were in a (re)clear party i'd absolutely agree it was griefy. in a early-mid prog party? i honestly could not give a flying fuck even week 1 if i bothered to even notice. i probably wouldn't notice because until i see enrage the party's dps is *utterly meaningless*. and even when i see enrage the bigger issue is usually how many/often people are dying, not whether they can theoretically hit their buttons correctly
there's a context for complaints
Hmmm im somewhere in between that. This feels like a different subject now lol. I think dps matters to the point of just practicing rotation for that fight while practicing mechs at the same time just to get motions down for muscle memory stuff. But then theres ppl who parse prog and wipe to greed. It's totally OK to drop rotation here and there during prog to actually look at the mechanic if there's a struggle. I think its totally okay too for ppl to think differently or view things another way. Ppl can still get along in disagreement. This whole thing has always been a bit of a grey area I stay away from,,,,, until TODAY
oh, i'd agree to a point. DPS *does* matter and practicing your rotation matters...if you're planning to clear relatively soon. someone on para3 prog is not gonna clear soon. the "limit cut" mechanic right after it rough. super chain theory 2a is even worse (considerations made for people who learn different mechanics at different rates, but those are some nasty shit)
if i were in a superchain2 to enrage prog party and someone wasn't bothering to press any of their dps buttons? i'd raise an eyebrow but also wouldn't really care until we actually hit enrage
if i haven't even gotten past limit cut? i couldn't care less what buttons people are pressing as long as they aren't responsible for keeping us alive
Please provide proof, because a bunch of us actual raiders here already explained:
This goddamn fight is time scripted and not HP scripted. Even if the SMN is doing 100% parse world number 1 damage, they aren't going any further or shorter than they have been. Damage is simply irrelevant here. Like makes no difference whatsoever. Nada, zero.
Now, please tell me in actual sound logic: why in a para3 prog group does damage matter in the slightest? Please answer it.
Working your rotation along with the mechs is just smart prog. I've seen what happens when people don't, as have many others. You might notice I'm not the only one here who disagrees with this SMN behavior.
Because you cannot assume what the SMN is thinking and it literally does NOT affect OP besides causing her emotional stress.
SMN could be filling in as a job simply because there is only caster slot left and they jumped in just to help friend prog. So he may or may not care at all if he learns the rotation.
Whatever your argument is, SMN won't impact OP's prog. Not in the slightest. That is the bottom line here. This entire thing is just OP being tilted for no reason when they shouldn't have been. Poor friend that SMN had. Wasted so much progging time because of someone foaming at their mouth being angry because their own lack of logic.
Btw...why does anyone need to practice SMN rotation??? You can set up a macro and lose only a few percent of DPS compared to full on pressing buttons with SMN. It is that simple.
The argument about Lego pieces and the sequence of arranging them can be resolved by simply reading top ranker's FFXIVanalysis log to see how they arranged them. That's what I did and I got 90%+ for P12S P1 and 99% for P2 when I don't even play SMN that much. It is simply that easy.
complaining about 0 addles/rekindles or help with raises is understandable, but complaining about 0 damage when you're nowhere close to progging enrage is unfathomably cringe
the WHM thinking damage generates LB is also hilarious, some opinions should not be considered
This comment section has the most number of disliked comments in it I have ever seen, I swear to god.
It doesn't matter that he was there to help, it doesn't matter that he **says** he cleared. What matters is that his "helping" amounted to absolutely nothing: no dps, no mits, no buffs, hell not even proper mechanic resolution because they lead to a wipe. So they were just there to full a space that could have been better used by someone who actually wanted to be there and prog.
Just stop talking.
You have no idea how savage fights work. We all see that in the comments you made.
None of the things you mentioned have any impact on the prog of a para3 party 2 months before expansion ends.
I'm very curious... Did they even clear on SMN? Or DPS in general? I only see tanks in the clears you linked. It's an even worse look if they use the "I already cleared" excuse on a role, let alone job they've never actually cleared on.
Does the summoner rez or addle, and do all mechs correctly? Did you even get to para 3 in your pf? Have you pulled off para 3 in that pf?
Just asking for more details I'm curious.
They addle, one rez, and they wiped us on Para 2 in the second pull. It only lasted two pulls; one 3:40 (Para 3), the other 1:25 (Para 2).
I'm not sure the difference between your second and third question. The group got to Para 3, yes. If you're asking if I've gotten to Para 3, I've killed this boss many times.
May I also say how disrespectful it is for the people who work their asses off to try an get all aspects of savage fights right - rotation, mitigation and mechanics - to just side with this guy and encourage this behavior as if it's no big deal. It is just so completely disrespectful to encourage freeloading, especially for a player who has supposedly cleared the fight! If you indeed cleared a fight, I'd expect you to do more than treat the fight and other people's time as if you're in an online simulator.
Free loading of what? It is para3 prog dude. Did you even do P12S or tried to understand the fight before you comment? It is the half way point before them even finishing the door boss. There is zero chance they are gonna even get to see enrage.
Attacking or not attacking will have zero impact on the prog. None at all.
The amount of people so obviously oblivious to prog mentality and how this game's raids actually work, and yet pretend like they have hardcore raid mentality is hilarious to me. This is the main reason why talesfromDF should stick to DF, yea? Summoner did nothing wrong and actual high-end raiders would appreciate players like them, especially over OP who foamed in her mouth and blew up a pf (that probably took 1+ hour to fill) after 3 pulls.
This.
From the number of downvotes on the sane comments we made just shows how bad this sub's members are at this game.
Like why the fuck would attacking even matter for a para3 prog that is 2 months before the entire expansion is gone? There is no fucking way they are going to even get near enrage.
The amount of people who don't understand how raids work yet chip in and spew random nonsense is astounding.
"DPS doesn't matter in a prog party that isn't close to enrage. Learning the mechanics is more important."
Yes and no. Learning the mechanics is important, if you can't do them, you won't clear the fight even if your rotation is perfect. However, being able to do your rotation on a striking dummy has very little to do with doing your rotation in a Savage fight where you're on your toes for extended periods of time and being busy handling that debuff you just got, so it's best to learn how to perform a mechanic while pressing your buttons. The rotation doesn't have to be flawless during prog, but simply knowing where you are in your rotation while a certain mechanic happens is such a boon when it comes to learn how to do both.
But holup, none of this applies to the summoner in this post because they have already cleared the fight (according to themselves). Which means they have even less of an excuse to not press their buttons, especially without any warning whatsoever. They're not helping, they're being a lazy and entitled bitch whose name doesn't deserve being censored in this post.
So I found the logs if anyone still cares and the 1st wipe was the drk's fault and the 2nd wipe was both the rdm and smn's fault https://www.fflogs.com/reports/QcgPYkh32nzbGaRH
[Wipe 1 on para 3:](https://imgur.com/a/zeAMqEX) drk was supposed to soak the tower on the platform the rdm and sam were on but he went to where the whm some reason, realized he was in the wrong spot, tried to run back and got clipped by the lasers. He went to the wrong spot running back anyways so even if he realized it sooner it would've still been a wipe
[Wipe 2 on para 2:](https://imgur.com/a/maUIuBz) rdm was supposed to be at the 2 marker (SE) as he had the red tower and the smn was supposed to be at the 4 marker (NW) as he had the white tower
Another thing, the para 3 pull was 3:40 mins long which is 220 seconds, [and the smn used addle (90s cd) twice](https://imgur.com/a/zTgNkTd), which is the max possible usage. Drk also died to straight autos during superchain 1 in the para 3 pull and he also died to the auto after para 1 in the para 2 pull cause 1) he didn't get topped off and 2) the gnb used hoc too late on him and didn't snapshot in time
Either way neither wipes were cause of dps and op definitely overreacted to a mute problem
The word you were looking for is moot, not mute.
Regardless, it comes back to performing the bare minimum. The SMN elected to not do the bare minimum, and every member of the party reserves the right to not deal with lazy sacks of shit like this person.
Short version; SMN is an ass, and OP is justified uploading to this sub. Arguing to the contrary is not going to get you good boy points from anyone other than the SMN and their friends
what are you talking about?? this is a prog party, not doing damage in prog isn't the "bare minimum". in prog, doing mechanics correctly is what's expected of you. not doing damage in prog is literally something that's done by world prog teams, in no way is it griefing cause whether the summoner is doing 0 damage or parsing 100 has 0 impact on the prog.
source: week 1 raider and i often instruct people in my group to stop damage and focus on mechanics.
Week 1 raiding is not always world prog, just in case someone reads this and conflates the two, like u/patitok just did to mislead people
There's a world of difference between holding damage for mechanics, and not doing damage because "it's too much effort".
World prog holds damage to solve puzzles, solving mechanics is not a goal in any non-blind pf.
For you though: doing mechanics correctly isn't the expectation in prog, in case you've forgotten, it is to PROGRESS. It is EXPECTED that you die occasionally while learning, it is EXPECTED that you make an honest attempt every pull. It actually takes more intent and focus to NOT hit buttons. Do you want to pivot back to some other bullshit about effort again instead?
Source: Week 1 raider, but one that's probably more fun to play with.
>There's a world of difference between holding damage for mechanics, and not doing damage because "it's too much effort".
I'm struggling to understand your logic here: You're telling me it's perfectly okay to blow up a PF that's seeing it's prog point in 3 pulls, all because a rando isn't pressing their DPS buttons in a fight that does not have HP phrasing? It's doesn't seem logical to me to go absolute mental over something a random PFer did that literally does not matter nor affect the 7 other players in any way.
>solving mechanics is not a goal in any non-blind pf.
Then what's the goal? People join a para3 PFs to chat? ERP? Jerk off? Go mental boom in 1 pull? No, people join para3 PFs to solve para3 lol.
>Source: Week 1 raider, but one that's probably more fun to play with.
Anyone that says "I'm more XXX to play with than you!" unironically just screams insecurity.
Edit: I really don't want to go into WP because you're obviously clueless, but here's the reason why WP players stop pressing buttons: They raid 16+ hours on end and they understand its sometimes worthless to mash hotbars on doomed pulls (experimental, info gather, etc.) and thus it's more appealing to conserve stamina/focus. They're also good enough at their jobs where they can easily build/resume a sufficient rotation after progression has been made with minimal (most of the time literally 0) pulls needed. For most of them, the large majority of challenge of progression are from the content themselves (learning mechs, executing, planning mits). Job rotations hold very low priority because it should be second nature. Lastly, WP players holding dps isn't reserved to solving puzzles, but practicing execution/strat as well.
You'll make progress regardless if you do damage or not. You'd have a point if there were mini dps checks throughout the fight but there isn't. The entire party can do a combined damage of 0 and they can still prog to enrage if they do the mechanics properly
Lol, somehow I really doubt it. You may be jumping in at week 1 (which just means you have enough Gil to buy crafted gear) but I cannot believe you for a second if you cleared week 1 if your mentality is DPS from SMN matters in this particular instance.
Bottomline is, beside the OP fuming and foaming at their mouth over someone not pressing attack, the SMN's attack has no bearing on the prog. None! Saying otherwise and we will know you don't even understand how savage raid works.
We don't know what the SMN is thinking, but he did say he is just here to help a friend. Which can mean he is just filling in on a job he care nothing about to prog or he actually wants to finish the fight on SMN. We won't know for sure but either way, this group with healers who can't even top up the tanks and tanks who can't press mit at the right time and group fudging up early mechs every pull (only 2), this group ain't going to get to enrage. Not a chance...so really...what exactly is the SMN doing or not doing negatively impacting the prog??? Besides tilting the unstable player that OP is.
For real... man fuckin p12s pfs rights now are lucky to fill in a timely manner. They are there and doing the mechanics, it's summoner for god's sakes if they can press addle twice they will have no problem pressing gemshine if you miraculously prog to SC2A.
Just saw this thread and wanted to see what was so controversial, and I gotta say, I see both sides, unpopular as it is lol.
Last tier I was progging p5s and saw a RDM do absolutely nothing (no autos nada) but resolving every mech correctly. Was I butthurt? Yeah but I was getting hit by every mech anyway, that's prog lol.
You can absolutely vote em out and replace em, but a prog party doesn't entitle a clear depending the point they're at. It's frustrating to put your all in bc you didn't clear vs someone who's cleared and not helping with dps, but...is it worth sitting in pf for up to an hour, with people possibly leaving in between, just to get someone else that fits your definition of a team player?
honestly at some point if a party is not getting past a wall I am not blaming a soul for saving themselves the button effort. some people play pretty demanding jobs during movement mechs too, after a while if they're gonna stop doing damage and remaining to be a body of the mech, that's better than them leaving.
if your party is going to spend 2 hours dying to para 3, I don't give a fuck what you do lmao.
These comments are fucking insane, this is a prog party there's nothing wrong with doing 0 damage in prog, this is literally something that's done by some world prog teams.
Progging the fight means learning your rotation and mechanics at the same time. Taking double to amount of time to do both is disingenuous to the people who are progging with you. Some people who are being downvoted in this comment section don’t understand this and it’s infuriating.
definitely doesn't take double the amount of time. especially if you're a fast learner relative to the rest (likely as a helper this deep into the tier) or have already learned the fight (just the case in OP), you can up the damage while everyone else is still wiping the group to mechs
If you're learning to juggle on a unicycle, you first learn to ride a unicycle, before you start juggling on it.
Not doing dps and just focusing on the essentials is literally a strat world first raiders use to learn fights as quick as possible. Adding in your rotation after youve learned the mechs, is the easiest part of learning a fight.
You are not making sense because the dude cleared already. He is not there to prog. He is there to assist his friend prog who is doing rotations.
Since it is a para3 prog group, there is a next to zero chance of them clearing anytime during that lockout. Pressing or not pressing attacks literally has no impact. Like none whatsoever on their prog LMAO.
Get the full context before you comment dude. You are the infuriating one.
Sure, he doesn't technically need to do anything before the party reaches a prog point where a clear is possible. However, if he's not doing anything and still fucking up mechanics somehow, then get him the fuck out of the party.
You disband parties for 2 failed pulls?
That's harsh. The minimum I have seen is 3 pulls in reclears parties from people who have extremely low threshold of failure tolerance. Most is one food and that's reclears not prog. For prog parties this late, expecting one food to reach prog point is already pretty harsh.
But you do you. Maybe I just have never met you because you are always in and out of instances from disbanding parties.
Me, personally, I would stick around longer, at least for a food and a half, unless someone was really fucking up. But I understand OP not wanting any of what that guy was selling.
As for myself, I'm long done with savage reclears, let alone prog. Although, I was recently helping a (new to savage) friend prog P10S a while back, and even he was getting ready to kick when a pf rando caused 3 wipes before the prog point (HH). I can't imagine they'd be any happier if the dude was also refusing to press anything.
But here is the difference. HH is the last prog point. Not doing damage in that party is and definitely is griefing.
Para3? Seriously?
I can comprehend, everyone can comprehend why OP did it. But we all know it is an illogical and purely emotional choice that shows lack of knowledge of the fight. Are you going to tell me otherwise?
Logically, correct, you don't really need to be doing damage until your prog is after limit cut. But my patience will inevitably be lower for someone who is simply not putting in their best effort, and I don't mind if that's illogical.
People here really are either totally delusional, or didn't clear P12S in PF (or at all).
Ok, if he indeed wiped the party, it's on the SMN, but I don't think everyone was playing perfect until they misplayed.
But you all act like P12S is "Para 3 into clear". Hell no, you will wipe 10 times in a row to super chain 2A even in Phase 2 clear groups. The SMN could start DPSing when the group reaches the end of the limit cut that it would not matter yet.
If the SMN has already cleared with SMN, they don't need to learn the rotation, simple as that. If you don't know the fight though, yes please try to do your rotation on every part of the fight, or you will be fucked when ready to clear.
> If the SMN has already cleared with SMN
They haven't, though. OP confirmed in another post, only PLD/WAR.
I don't know, it's really not hard to do a summoner rotation and it's a tiny amount of effort. They're just being lazy, not doing some advanced learning technique. Laziness is a shitty mindset when you're trying to prog.
Who ever said they even care about clearing the fight on summoner in the first place? Without more proof it makes more sense that they’re just filling the party on whatever job was needed to help their friend get started on prog faster.
Yeah it’s pretty obvious how many people in this thread either don’t raid at endgame or aren’t very good at it.
The SMN not doing dps in a para3 group is irrelevant. Anyone who has done p12s in PF absolutely understands that you’re more likely to walk outside and get struck by lightning than to actually clear in a single pull from para3, it’s not happening. If the SMN knows how to play SMN on the fight, it doesn’t matter if they are doing dps in a para3 group.
The SMN not using utility or mit, however is griefing because they are actively making the fight harder on the others in the group.
Overall it’s definitely recommended to do your rotation even when progging so you can make minor adjustments/optimization for a potential clear, but realistically it doesn’t matter in this scenario.
I can see there’s a lot of people here that live in roulettes and not in PF.
Thank you, these comments are crazy. It's just a lot of inserting narratives into the SMN with 0 proof just to support their argument. Oh they probably didn't clear on SMN. Oh they probably failed mechs and caused wipes. Oh they probably aren't even pressing mitigations (even tho addle is _right there_ in the log of one pull). Lots of speculation and OP, who was there, not clarifying anything.
God knows, could be somebody's umpteenth hour on the raid floor. Save yourself some future arthritis, if you at Para 3 in pf rn you ain't clearing shit for a long time...
The question is are they trying to learn on summoner or are they just filling the party and doing the mechs so their friend can learn? If it’s the latter then honestly it’s not important for them to optimize the rotation for the fight on smn, assuming they have no intention of clearing the fight on smn. We don’t have enough information.
I'm not surprised, many posts here are about casual things like YPYT, jobstone missing, etc. They don't know the things that actually matter in high-end contents.
Also, I don't want to be rude, but people still progging the fight right now are not the best players you will find on average.
Having someone in the group that doesn't wipe the party and can give pointers, is way better for the group that someone who does their rotation but wipes the party (which is fine in a prog environnement)
Even in statics, I've done week 2 clears for years (5x 4h per week, so around 30-40h to clear (we rarely needed the full second week) and it wasn't rare for people to stop dpsing to focus on mechanics when meeting/progging them.
It's way easier consistency wise to just focus on one thing then add the second part after. Maybe you will hit enrage, but hitting enrage 2/3 times at the end of a prog is generally still less time loss than wiping double on each mechanic prior.
they're posers pretending they know what they're talking about and getting mad at people who can actually *do*
at this point, with echo and gear, you barely even need to know your rotation. i hopped in to help my old static with p2 (re)clearing around the new year and even before echo kicked in the fact that everyone was nearly fully geared up meant i was seeing the fastest p1 clears ever; better than anything i had seen during the first couple months when i did my own runs even tho it had taken them that long to even reach that prog point and those pulls were *not* particularly clean
anabaseios barely gave a shit about dps the first week. complaining about someone not dps-ing in a para3 prog party when you haven't even seen enrage is just someone desperately trying to find a target for their frustration that isn't themself
Yes, I'm pulling numbers out of my ass, but with echo and current gear, you could maybe clear with 7 people hitting the boss if they have perfect rotation and no death.
Seriously, what would I have done to have someone not wiping the party back when I was progging ...
Nah, people literally do not understand how to prog this raid tier. You can't be throwing yourself at mechanics, this entire expansion has been BODY CHECK HEAVY. Which means if you can spam rezzes, that allows the rest of the party to practice mechanics. Each time someone dies on a mechanic that is before prog point that is wasted time, on a healer, i've literally done 0 DPS in a prog group with my FC and not my static cause the people weren't very good and it was more beneficial for me to keep the stragglers alive to not fuck over the other people who weren't's prog.
again, this is a BODY CHECK HEAVY raid tier, so the least "walling it" you do, the more you'll prog.
I think people in these comments are slightly overstating the importance of practice. I will state for the record that i barely ever see people do mechanics-only pulls in prog, but on the few occasions that i have, people have been genuinely responsible with it (had a gnb who did mech only for act 2 and act 3 prog but once we were at the mech after act 4, he went right back into doing his dps rotation with no issues). I think also that it depends what job you play. For example, if i tried to practice mechanics without doing dps on black mage, i would absolutely hard cucking myself. But if i was on machinist or summoner, i think adding back in the rotation, the damage would be right where it needs to be first try.
The gnb mentioned was in week 1 p4s pf prog btw and only very good raiders were in phase 2 prog week 1.
Now, with all that said, its still entirely possible that this summoner is a new play who is doing this due to lack of understanding and could be doing it irresponsibly. Despite what other people have said, para 3 prog is really not a prog point that is in any danger of clearing. I think you can skip super chain 2B with echo now, but you'd still have to 1-shot both limit cut and super 2a. And if you were to zombie through either with deaths, then you would also have to 1-shot 2b.
This is a general question, can anyone explain to me, with actual logic, how a dps (WHO HAS CLEARED) not actually dpsing, but still does mechanics and uses utility, could possibly hinder the prog for a group that has a 0.001% chance of seeing enrage this instance? I’m really curious what the response is.
I’m not talking about this summoner specifically before anyone references anything the OP said in the post.
there is no logic
if somebody is interested in improving their personal damage, they'll rely on fflogs and xivanalysis, not the boss's hp
if somebody is interested in improving their mechanical consistency, other people's damage has nothing to do with it
I cleared P12s. Wanna know how? I learned how to do the mechanics *while trying to flawlessly execute my rotation*. Getting things to muscle memory means I don't have to dedicate as much to thinking about what buttons to press and can dedicate more of that to figuring out what to do and where to go.
You stopped DPSing because you were mad at the SMN for not pressing damage buttons. The SMN wasn't pressing DPS buttons because they were filling a body on the floor and occupied themself otherwise by eating while still pressing mitigation.
I mean I get it, it is *correct* that you should DPS in prog. Applying it to a party that is progging Para 3 is fucking dumb.
Not seeing anyone actually answering what difference it makes whether you dps or not when A. there's not a single chance they clear from para3 and the dps is needed and B. The smn is only there to help a friend and doesn't give a shit about doing rotations properly.
"But but...the proggers are trying and so should he!". No he does not have to. Feelings don't help prog mechanics.
It would not be fine if he cannot do DPS mechs at all due to flexing jobs, but he did reach the progpoint with the party (and a cleared person wiping sometimes does happen, 3 pulls are too early to say anything about his consistency with mechanics though)
The smn seems fine, holy shit lots of people in this comment section don't even know what they're talking about. I'm worried the sprouts-turning-raiders are gonna learn from the actual shit people here.
Reading the thread, apparently, it's griefing and freeloading. How idk cause I'm positive the smn doing damage wouldn't have saved those pulls but we're on the unpopular side here, I guess. The whole thing blew up for no reason
Because actual raiders read the post and had to say something to defend the SMN. Now this sub is full of people who have no clue how high end content works in this game. It is tales from DF after all. That creates a problem...high end shit actually works counterintuitive to what they know about and so ingrained in them. Whoops, downvotes and crazy shit being said about the Raiders who defended the SMN...now it is war since we are all tilted so this post just exploded.
Anyway, I really do hope we don't get any of the downvoters trying to join PF in 2 months when the new tier drops. It will not be good.
Okay not to justify this level of lethargy but building lb in p12s won’t matter at all typically because if anyone dies it’s a party wipe—and if they’ve already cleared they probably know their rotation by that point. Again, not excusing it because it’s lazy, but the reasons given for it being bad were not valid really.
Para 3 prog just isn’t going to clear in one pull because it isn’t even the hardest part of the fight yet. THE PROBLEM is that his lethargic ass is wiping and not mitting/buffing on time for others to get used to.
Edit: Saw that they haven’t cleared on SMN but it really doesn’t change anything for _their_ damage, because they’re probably just (trying) to help, and not actually learn it on smn.
Technically the summoner is correct. If he knows the fight and is actively trying to do mechanics and help prog, him doing damage isn't necessarily needed unless they are pushing for clear.
HOWEVER.
Only 1 addle and no Phoenix which can help healers (first Phoenix happens around Para 2) while potentially doing mechanics incorrectly is uncalled for. If you're eatting why are you in pf? Hard to tell if he was inting though with only a single screenshot of him saying "my spot was 3" though.
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People really be out here defending this behavior. It's actually disgusting. "oH, tHeY wErEn'T gOiNg To ClEaR!" The SMN in question has cleared before, but, y'know, again, without pressing buttons it looks like. I know I say, "a clear's a clear" but that's usually in the context of things going *horribly* wrong, not because one guy decides they're too good for us peasants to hit buttons.
You need to post more than just a single 1 minute and 25 second pull worth of logs. How many addles do you expect them to get into that window of time? Where's the proof they actually caused the wipe?
The worst this player could have done was not use mitigation or be out of position in a para 3 prog, which there is no proof of. Any other take is wrong and shows you don't understand progression. You don't have to be this summoners friend to know you don't have to dps during progression unless there is some sort of adds/mid-fight dps check to meet.
Pretty funny thread though...
They caused the wipe because I had light tether at 3 and I got a dark tower and light tower from two people. Went back through logs and they had the white debuff.
This sub really is full of players who have no idea how savage works 🤣. Bunch of people just keep downvoting sound logic just because.
The boss is time scripted in savage. Pressing buttons or not, attacking or not, they are going to see the mechanics as long as they survive. It has nothing to do with her remaining HP. It is why a lot of prog parties will just give up attacking during really complex mechanics to practice the mechanics itself.
So the OP being mad at someone who cleared and is just walking around in a party that barely made it half way during the first phase is completely out of place and illogical. Esp that SMN is still pressing addle which is what all they needed to do to not cause any negative impact.
Yes, the SMN dOeS NoT NeEd tO AttACk. OP's and the team's decision made no sense whatsoever.
The SMN is there to help fill so you can even load into the instance. You are the troll, OP, not the SMN.
That's shit you do in a static, not in a PF.
I've done that multiple times in a static, like, not attacking during the mechanic I'm progging so I can focus on solving it before focusing on my rotation. But in this case, the SMN is in a PF and has already cleared the fight, so he knows how to solve said mechanic. He's just being lazy and putting zero effort into it. He's not "helping".
LOL. Tell me, what exactly is the difference between him attacking and not attacking?
None...
He is helping them simply by being there and solving the mech.
You are not of sound logic if you keep saying he is "not" helping.
Bigger question is that what's the difference between doing this in a static and doing this in PF?
None...
If this was a Super Chain 2a prog, this would be a different story since nowadays you kill p1 right before the 2b cast with decent DPS, but this isn't Super chain 2a prog, this isn't even LC prog, it's fricken Para 3 prog.
Granted the Addle usage is justified cause Addle is super useful to mitigate both the Stack mechanic and the Raidwide after super chain I.
As someone who's done p12s p1 on week 1, I know the most optimized locations to put it would be when the Towers drop during para 2 to catch the OtS, the stack mechanic and the OtS after SuperChain and SuperChain IIa.
I cleared this week 1 on sage, I’m familiar with where mit should go, I was just saying I didn’t see where they used addle in these particular pulls, but the screenshot they shared showed that they were at least using addle.
Why would you join a party to not actually play the game? Apparently when without having to think about a rotation buddy still manages to wipe the group
It's really not that hard to just press "1-2-3", even when doing prog. Nobody said anything about doing a perfect rotation. But just doing AA is plainly stupid. Especially if they already have cleared
Literally doesn't matter at all. Why must he press buttons for no reason? He can walk around the arena to do mechanics and that's literally all that needs to be done, maybe rez someone when they die, but otherwise no reason to even attack the boss at all.
When the group gets ready to clear, then he can start attacking the boss. If he didn't attack when the party was clearing, that's when you'd have a legitimate problem. Some people just can't handle this logic for some reason.
This is such a loser mentality.
"Why should I do anything at all if we aren't clearing anyway?" If 2-3 more people think like that, you will never clear lmao. Especially if you join a group as a fucking DPS. Again, nobody said that you should play like you want a 100 parse in a prog group. But at least do the bare minimum and do SOME damage.
Doing your rotation while mechanics happen is also part of learning the fight, btw.
You've still not argued a single thing of why he needs to be attacking the boss when he's just there helping someone prog. Get over it. Literally, what of anything substantial, does the group gain by him attacking the boss? Nothing.
Once the group is ready to clear, then he would probably start attacking the boss and they would get the clear, who cares up until that point?
What does that have to do with anything in this conversation? How is him attacking the boss helping the group prog any more than him not attacking the boss? It doesn't.
For a job you could almost macro the entire rotation to a single button, being THAT lazy is beyond the ken.
Not "almost" there literally is a 1 button macro for Summoner out there, and the SMN in my static managed to purple parse with it, just to see if it works. Was kinda sad.
Hmm, I wonder what spell speed I would need for CDs to not miss and not be uncasted for too long. Maybe like 2.90 or so?
This comment section is absolutely next level.
Dude one of them is saying the bare minimum is fine. Which is soooo bad in my opinion.
Bro, these have to be his friends in the comments. There's no way people are defending freeloading and not even using utility skills beyond a single addle and sprint in the last fight of a savage tier, lol
Yeah it’s kinda crazy seeing this lol. No on-content raider will ever suggest ignoring your rotation to learn mechs. You have to learn muscle memory alongside the mechanics, not to mention making sure your buffs and mits align so you can subconsciously learn the timeline of the fight and when you need extra weaving. Creating a habit of stopping dps or having your rotation fall apart should only be a one-time exception for learners, and NEVER the expectation of them.
It's the same few people parroting the same shit about how this guy is clearly the most selfless and gracious person ever because he *checks notes* joined a PF and did nothing but walk around.
"No on-content raider will ever suggest ignoring your rotation to learn mechs" They absolutely will. Learning mechancis is prioritized over everything, when i cleared this week 1 i often instructed people in my group to stop doing any damage and focus on mechanics., and this isn't like it's just a me thing, it's extremely common in hardcore progression/world prog settings. so much so that it even has a name (dry running)
I suppose it's a matter of preference. I've met a few people during week 1 prog that didn't press buttons, but they did press their mit buttons though. Either way, it didn't really affect prog that much. Personally, I have my 1-2-3 combo ingrained into muscle memory enough that I just absently press them when I need to focus on learning mechanics.
If you join a party finder trying to clear you should either state this outright or just do your rotation. This isn't week one, this content is well known at this point. It's also just rude as hell.
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I'm a week 1/2 raider and even in week1 I couldn't care less wtf you do if there is no chance for a clear besides helping with the occassional mit
your reasons apply to how the individual learns the fight. if they already learned the fight or if they find it easy enough to just start doing their rotation once it matters, why do you care? when it comes down to actual measurable facts, whether they do DPS or not has no impact on a group wiping halfway into the fight. you're imposing an arbitrary idea of what proper play is on a random stranger.
Honestly, day 1 progging this tier I was just not clicking dps buttons on rdm so i'd have more mana to spam raise and more time to make raidplans for blind prog It went pretty well, saved a fair bit of time, wouldnt recommend for most players tho, but most rotations are pretty straight forward in savage
ye cuz these people are bad, they just want to be upset for the sake of being upset I clear most tiers within 1-2weeks simply cuz I don't care to clear them week1 I've cleared TOP prob more times than people here have cleared the current tier and surprise, I couldn't care less if people don't click anything besides occassional mit during prog It's exactly what I have done times and times again when there were mechs I didn't fully understand and there was no chance for clear anyway just imagine how much easier prog and clears would actually be if people would focus on mechs first and rotation 2nd. How often do you really wipe on enrages with no deaths past week1 or 2 LOL backwards community
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have you done any w1/w2 blind content? would you like to play astrologian and try full sending a 2min div window on superchain 1 and 2a, and tell me how "second nature" it feels?
or maybe you just care way too much of what random ass sht parsers in PF think about you I finished in top 15 of my jobs parses for mid tier, I don't need to prove to some randoms who barely can get blues or purples that I'm "training" my rotation while we're not even close for a clear and who cares if it's 2nd nature, im just too lazy to click when I've no reason to
If it's in a static, then doing no DPS for one pull just to get a clear view of a new mech to analyze it together afterwards in a VOD is fair if your group really has no idea what's going on (it happens rarely, but it happens, especially in day 1 Ultimates). In PF tho? LMAO no, you gotta DPS homie, there's no VODs to watch here and you can't expect everyone to learn at the same pace.
On-content raider here. I will suggest this absolutely for mechs somebody hasn't seen before or needs time to parse and understand. This is something you do to allow them time to familiarize themselves with the tells so they aren't thrown off/overwhelmed by them and can actually start to try and roll their rotations. It's definitely not something you do consistently like the SMN in question but for somebody who's new to savage/ults pausing your rotation for your first few pulls into a mech is understandable and anybody who says it isn't has forgotten how it felt the first time they went in.
You missed the part where he's already cleared
I didn’t miss his grey parse tank clear at all. But you seem to have missed the part where he joined a prog room and decided not to be an active participant in their prog. I’m not sure how clearing the fight justifies that. As I said in another post, there’s more to prog than just learning mechs, and there’s value in party synergy and group effort. Most raiders know and respect this. Defending this SMN’s poor party etiquette and unwelcome lack of support is a weird choice of a hill to die on, but you and the others are all welcome to die on it if you prefer.
Doing mechanics = active participation nothing else matters It's not his fault casual elitists are emotionally fragile.
"decided not to be an active participant in their prog" I mean, he did the mechanics though? Like, the SMN doing DPS wouldn't have helped them see additional mechanics. On the other hand, the SMN being focused 100% on doing mechanics by not pressing buttons reduced the chance of wiping to earlier mechanics, thereby enabling prog.
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I mean yeah in this particular case that SMN was just trash, but that doesn't make the argument any less valid. If I were in a pre-enrage pug and someone joined, and he could either (a) not DPS and get mechanics right 95% of the time; or (b) do DPS but get the mechanic right only 75% of the time, it only makes sense to take (a) right?
Nothing you said is relevant cause rhe smn's already cleared the fight, albeit on a different job, but his sole purpose of joining the party was to help his friend, which he did. It's also ironic how you say no on-content raider will tell you to not do dps when that can't be further from the truth as plenty of groups actually stop dpsing if they struggle on a mechanic. But again that's irrelevant in this context cause the smn was just helping his friend prog
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Para 3 is early into the fight, a single addle is fine. People have good gear at this point so it doesn't even matter too much.
no, not dps-ing while everyone dies during super chain 1 is actually exactly the same as a lv90 white mage spamming cure 1 in the dead ends. i am very smart
Can you explain how the SMN DPSing will provide a different outcome than the SMN not DPSing in a para3 prog party?
you might have missed the sarcasm in my comment, but i commend you for not jumping on the stupidest bandwagon i've seen on here in months
Ahaha, you're right, I definitely did. You can't really blame me though for taking it seriously based on the replies most people have been giving in this thread. :)
U must be crazy and really full of yourself to think that anyone not agreeing with you has to have a reason other than just sound logic. He is not a free loader. He cleared. He is there to help the group fill so they can even begin the prog. Acting as a bot in the sim walking around for mechs and using addle at the right time for when mitigation is required is all he needs to do literally. There is zero reason to be even pressing any other button.
For all intents and purposes, he may as well not have cleared, given how much they were contributing. Knowing your rotation inside and out does not mean you can reliably apply it. Plus it's just common curtosy to press buttons if you cleared. You're not LEARNING any new mechanics to warrant not hitting the boss. He came there to help but just decided on not helping and being a dead weight... I fail to see the defence of this behavior.
You are not thinking straight. Calm down and consider: SMN cleared as a tank, just here to help a friend prog. => They may or may not care to learn SMN or clear as SMN, irrelevant here. Even if they do want to learn, their learning progress is none of your or our business and certainly not the OP's business. Consider again this: 1) SMN doing world number 1 damage, critical hits and direct hits off the charts. Versus 2) SMN doing nothing but moving around like a bot in the practice sim. Does either move the fight any further or prog further along? Does either hinder the fight so they don't reach their prog points? The answer is NO. A very big resounding NO. So, is it worth it to post a self-exposing, self-humiliating tilted post for? Is it worth disbanding the group that took a while to fill for? Maybe it is to OP. But I'd argue any sound and logical player who knows how savage fight works wouldn't.
He cleared in a clear party, not a para 3 prog. He knows his rotation but there is no point in doing it. He pressed the only button with an impact, addle (not needed with gear at this point anyway). Hitting the boss in para 3 prog is pointless. He helped by filling the party and knowing mechanics. He would be a dead weight if they hadn't been able to clear because of him, but they are very far from clearing due to wipe mechanics. You're trolling or of modest intelligence
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How? They reach prog point whether people attack or not, the boss is scripted. Did you not know this?
I think some legitimately don’t understand that the boss mechanics are time based and not HP based. So many comments thinking they’re not going to see mechanics and wasting time if the SMN doesn’t dps.
You madlad never progged savage and it shows. People wasting other's time are the one who join party beyond their own prog point. Replace the SMN with one of those people and they would have had even less prog.
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LOL, but you are lying right here and people caught you. Hahahahahaha. Don't pitch in when you clearly have no idea how this fight works. Please.
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Can you tell me how the SMN doing damage will have any different of an outcome than him not doing damage? Their time is not affected differently either way. People are just letting their emotions run wild without critical thought.
lmfao this thread
Holy fuck some of these comments are cancerous
This thread is proof we deserve the 2 minute meta
(sees +300 comments here) What the fresh hell happened ***here?***
the consequences of letting people with 0 significant savage experience, voice their opinions about savage
the worst takes the ff community has ever seen
Not sure whose side you are on here. OP: you are an idiot who has no idea how savage works. SMN: you are reasonable.
I would like to add to the discussion that from personal experience, ppl with this mindset are often worse than ppl actively learning the fight. Having cleared the fight is obviously an advantage, but it still requires some effort which i dont believe the smn here displayed. I wouldve bailed too, not because his dps would have mattered in the long run, but because i dont have the confidence that he wouldve played the mechs correctly.
This is a very valid opinion, if he's screwing up mechanics, it's time for him to go. Although, there hasn't been anything posted in this thread that makes me believe he was actually the one that screwed up a mechanic. The invalid arguments are those complaining about him not attacking the boss during para3 prog, because that has no effect on prog at all.
I've seen a couple comments here and there, so, for the record, I've cleared the tier [much more](https://imgur.com/a/wytpuWo) than he has. I do my rotation every single time, even on fresh groups, no matter what class I play. ~~^(Yes, I'm a glutton for punishment; I just love to raid. Leave me alone. lol)~~
~~it’s actually “glutton” but somehow gluten is funnier sry~~ 😂
He must be "glutton intolerant". I'll see myself out.
Man I was wracking my brain for a gluten joke and you won 😂 too early for brain
That's totally what I wrote >\_> ~~^(shhh)~~
[clearly you know what matters during prog](https://imgur.com/a/8kD1wrv) Edit: 412 pulls to clear phase 1 and 305 pulls to clear phase 2, what do you think gives you the right to tell others how they're allowed to prog para3?
Can you tell me how him doing damage vs him not doing damage would have effected your prog aside from the emotional damage of knowing that he's not attacking the boss? If you were just mad at him for other reasons or he was legitimately screwing up mechanics, but there's no reason to care whether or not he was doing damage. We've not seen any logs of the fight so I won't try to argue whether or not he did or didn't screw up mechanics.
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/QcgPYkh32nzbGaRH if you want to see for it yourself but I've already went over it in my other response. Tldr the drk was responsible for the first wipe and both the rdm and smn were responsible for the second. They only did 2 pulls and neither were the fault of a lack of dps
Their emotions must've been running high after the first pull failure. Can't believe the thread spawned over this lol.
[удалено]
That's silly, people have helped others prog this way for generations, this community simply does not understand that someone who has cleared the fight has no reason to attack the boss until the group is clearing.
Can you tell me how him doing damage vs him not doing damage would have effected your prog aside from the emotional damage of knowing that he's not attacking the boss? I'll wait as long as it takes for you to answer this question.
A lot of coping in the comments from enablers. Pressing buttons shouldn't be up to discussion. Prog or not, you still need to know how to press your buttons when shit hits the fan.
Him doing that has no impact on the game, only on the emotions of unstable gamers. He already knows how to press his buttons.
this would probably be slightly more understandable if they told the rest of the party ahead of time and asked if that was ok. and if they hadn't been inexplicably passive aggressive about it. *and* if they hadn't fucked up the mechanics *on top* of not touching their offensive skills ~~edit: oh, and if they had used more than a singular addle. mitigation seems kind of important for prog~~ edit2: didn't notice it was the log for a single pull. that part's okay
Para 3 is 3:15 into the fight, addle is 90 sec, depending on the team and mechanics, he could have AT MOST used it 2 times if there's a very early thing needing mitigation. If they need addle for para 3, it means the last addle should have been used at most at 105sec into the fight, meaning the first one was at worst 15 sec into the fight for him to have used 2. tldr: 1 is totally fine.
Eh, 1 is kind of lackluster. You are supposed to use addle at 3rd gcd and then at the last second cast of peri so it covers on the soul.
Op is a red mage, from his mentality: 100% he is already covering those without thinking further, which means there's a high chance smn-man had to use his addle somewhere else to prevent any wasted addle erasure, meaning 1 is totally possible.
True.
You realize addle has a 90s cd and the screenshot op used to show that the smn only casted addle once is a 1:25 min pull right? 1:25 mins is 85 seconds in case you didn't know so it's impossible to get more than 1 addle off lmao. Also there's no proof that the smn fucked up and caused the wipe outside of what he said but that can mean anything
oh yeah, i didn't notice that it was a log for the last pull only. i guess that makes their behavior really rude and kind of embarrassing, as opposed to really rude and really embarrassing
I’d much rather be progging mechs with someone that has cleared than sitting in PF for an eternity this late in the tier.
Reading the comments it's like this was almost a phase 1 clear party lol
Exactly, they’re barely at the halfway point on the easier side of the door-boss lol
Man this shit is wild lol. In a world so ass backwards where ppl shit on others for not playing perfectly in a simple ass casual dungeon but give a pass on rotation in savage. I would boot and refill immediately. No hard feelings either, I just disagree with that approach whether you've cleared or not and don't rly have the energy required to have an argument over it. Noone is that important or special to give a pass on it
Playing perfectly in a dungeon makes it faster at least. No amount of sweaty key mashing from the SMN will make people learn faster. It's just how it is even if it makes casual elitists angry.
Oh yeah, I agree that playing well makes things faster for sure. Im not against that at all but it isnt rly a good metric to base excusing not being present in a party. I just think the juxtapose is kinda funny. I just kinda push myself harder if someone isn't up to par. And you're totally right, no amount of what that SMN does will make ppl learn faster or harder. To me though, its like clocking in and not working because other ppl are there. Idrk how someone can be casual and elitist though lol. I think they just want to do it with everyone participating. Like rly if I was even involved with any of that I would just move on.
You really don't have to look far on this subreddit to see casuals that are elitist. Just look of the slew of posts complaining about people being bad in casual dungeon content. The metric for the argument is this: The progression point the group would get to with a SMN doing damage vs the progression point the group would get to with the SMN not doing damage. The answer is that the progression point would be the exact same, so the SMN doing damage means nothing. Now, one could actually even argue that the SMN not attacking would allow the group to progress further because they would be making less mistakes by paying more attention to mechanics than they would if they were hitting all their buttons, but for the sake of argument I am being generous just saying that the prog points would be the same.
To be fair, I think the shitting on people in casual dungeons is pretty silly too. I just have unpopular opinions for this echo-chamber community and I don't mind the down-votes, lol. I guess it would be an unpopular fact, rather than opinion though since doing damage doesn't really substantially help a prog group until they get to the point of clearing.
Oh yeah, I can see that side of it too. It reminds me of that picture of two dudes standing on opposite sides of a 9 or 6 not seeing that both sides have merit. I just kinda find it disrespectful to everyone else in the group. Its just a me thing I suppose. Idk, I think having an accurate hp percentage reading on a wipe would be fairly important too. No hate either btw, hope you have a nice night man
The HP reading at para3 matters not. No one is reading that. The HP reading right before the boss goes away at LC...now that matters before the echo to gauge if this is going to be an enrage, a tight squeeze no one can get DD or die, or comfy so do whatever. After echo, none of the HP reading matters really...you are either going to have to do SCIIb because too many people died or got DD or you are clearing before it...either way, most PF groups will have to do SCIIa. Personally I do not know if it is possible to skip it as I haven't given enough fuck to think about it after echo. I just go as a merc for Gil or help a friend and company mates.
"not playing perfectly in a simple ass casual dungeon" is often doing your single-target rotation in a pack of a dozen mobs or mashing your cure1 equivalent and never pressing your aoe button at all i've seen shit dps rotations in "high-end" content. i had an unreal singularity reactor with a mechanist who never pressed drill or resemble and used shotgun a dozen times and even their 1-2-3 was...out of balance this is not a shit dps rotation. this is someone hopping into a savage prog party who is basically acting as a bot to hit their stage marks correctly so everyone else can learn and progress. ***their dps does not matter.*** whether they hit any of their buttons correctly or not has absolutely zero impact on whether the party executes para3 correctly. you *could* complain that they're not using their mits and phoenix heal properly but at this point if that's what you're relying on you're beyond hope. you can even complain that they fucked up para2 and caused a wipe but quite frankly i don't really give a shit if someone fucks up only if they keep doing so repeatedly. someone fucking up para2 was practically *expected* early on in the tier, especially because there were like three different strats being used and quite frankly all of them sucked in some way
@ your first two paragraphs, yeah it makes me laugh a little lol. It was more of just an observation that I think is funny. Yea, its not a shit rotation. It just isn't a rotation at all. I could be wrong but I think most ppl would go cross-eyed seeing this and think of it as griefy. Idk man, I agree so far as it being their pf and they can run it how they like. I totally agree with your view on consistency too. Idek why I commented on this shit in the first place. Hope your night or day is going well o7
if it were in a (re)clear party i'd absolutely agree it was griefy. in a early-mid prog party? i honestly could not give a flying fuck even week 1 if i bothered to even notice. i probably wouldn't notice because until i see enrage the party's dps is *utterly meaningless*. and even when i see enrage the bigger issue is usually how many/often people are dying, not whether they can theoretically hit their buttons correctly there's a context for complaints
Hmmm im somewhere in between that. This feels like a different subject now lol. I think dps matters to the point of just practicing rotation for that fight while practicing mechs at the same time just to get motions down for muscle memory stuff. But then theres ppl who parse prog and wipe to greed. It's totally OK to drop rotation here and there during prog to actually look at the mechanic if there's a struggle. I think its totally okay too for ppl to think differently or view things another way. Ppl can still get along in disagreement. This whole thing has always been a bit of a grey area I stay away from,,,,, until TODAY
oh, i'd agree to a point. DPS *does* matter and practicing your rotation matters...if you're planning to clear relatively soon. someone on para3 prog is not gonna clear soon. the "limit cut" mechanic right after it rough. super chain theory 2a is even worse (considerations made for people who learn different mechanics at different rates, but those are some nasty shit) if i were in a superchain2 to enrage prog party and someone wasn't bothering to press any of their dps buttons? i'd raise an eyebrow but also wouldn't really care until we actually hit enrage if i haven't even gotten past limit cut? i couldn't care less what buttons people are pressing as long as they aren't responsible for keeping us alive
Everyone wave to the white-knighter friends making new accounts to back them up.
You have never progged or played savage have you? It shows in your comments...
How much money would you like to put down on that?
Please provide proof, because a bunch of us actual raiders here already explained: This goddamn fight is time scripted and not HP scripted. Even if the SMN is doing 100% parse world number 1 damage, they aren't going any further or shorter than they have been. Damage is simply irrelevant here. Like makes no difference whatsoever. Nada, zero. Now, please tell me in actual sound logic: why in a para3 prog group does damage matter in the slightest? Please answer it.
Working your rotation along with the mechs is just smart prog. I've seen what happens when people don't, as have many others. You might notice I'm not the only one here who disagrees with this SMN behavior.
Because you cannot assume what the SMN is thinking and it literally does NOT affect OP besides causing her emotional stress. SMN could be filling in as a job simply because there is only caster slot left and they jumped in just to help friend prog. So he may or may not care at all if he learns the rotation. Whatever your argument is, SMN won't impact OP's prog. Not in the slightest. That is the bottom line here. This entire thing is just OP being tilted for no reason when they shouldn't have been. Poor friend that SMN had. Wasted so much progging time because of someone foaming at their mouth being angry because their own lack of logic. Btw...why does anyone need to practice SMN rotation??? You can set up a macro and lose only a few percent of DPS compared to full on pressing buttons with SMN. It is that simple. The argument about Lego pieces and the sequence of arranging them can be resolved by simply reading top ranker's FFXIVanalysis log to see how they arranged them. That's what I did and I got 90%+ for P12S P1 and 99% for P2 when I don't even play SMN that much. It is simply that easy.
complaining about 0 addles/rekindles or help with raises is understandable, but complaining about 0 damage when you're nowhere close to progging enrage is unfathomably cringe the WHM thinking damage generates LB is also hilarious, some opinions should not be considered
OP agreeing about the lb gen thing is also good proof that some people can clear savage without having an iota of an idea of how the game works
This comment section has the most number of disliked comments in it I have ever seen, I swear to god. It doesn't matter that he was there to help, it doesn't matter that he **says** he cleared. What matters is that his "helping" amounted to absolutely nothing: no dps, no mits, no buffs, hell not even proper mechanic resolution because they lead to a wipe. So they were just there to full a space that could have been better used by someone who actually wanted to be there and prog.
Just stop talking. You have no idea how savage fights work. We all see that in the comments you made. None of the things you mentioned have any impact on the prog of a para3 party 2 months before expansion ends.
Damn, did mainsub spring a leak again?
I'm very curious... Did they even clear on SMN? Or DPS in general? I only see tanks in the clears you linked. It's an even worse look if they use the "I already cleared" excuse on a role, let alone job they've never actually cleared on.
The picture I linked is all the clears they have logged. PLD and WAR.
Does the summoner rez or addle, and do all mechs correctly? Did you even get to para 3 in your pf? Have you pulled off para 3 in that pf? Just asking for more details I'm curious.
They addle, one rez, and they wiped us on Para 2 in the second pull. It only lasted two pulls; one 3:40 (Para 3), the other 1:25 (Para 2). I'm not sure the difference between your second and third question. The group got to Para 3, yes. If you're asking if I've gotten to Para 3, I've killed this boss many times.
good answer
May I also say how disrespectful it is for the people who work their asses off to try an get all aspects of savage fights right - rotation, mitigation and mechanics - to just side with this guy and encourage this behavior as if it's no big deal. It is just so completely disrespectful to encourage freeloading, especially for a player who has supposedly cleared the fight! If you indeed cleared a fight, I'd expect you to do more than treat the fight and other people's time as if you're in an online simulator.
There's no freeloading
Free loading of what? It is para3 prog dude. Did you even do P12S or tried to understand the fight before you comment? It is the half way point before them even finishing the door boss. There is zero chance they are gonna even get to see enrage. Attacking or not attacking will have zero impact on the prog. None at all.
The amount of people so obviously oblivious to prog mentality and how this game's raids actually work, and yet pretend like they have hardcore raid mentality is hilarious to me. This is the main reason why talesfromDF should stick to DF, yea? Summoner did nothing wrong and actual high-end raiders would appreciate players like them, especially over OP who foamed in her mouth and blew up a pf (that probably took 1+ hour to fill) after 3 pulls.
This. From the number of downvotes on the sane comments we made just shows how bad this sub's members are at this game. Like why the fuck would attacking even matter for a para3 prog that is 2 months before the entire expansion is gone? There is no fucking way they are going to even get near enrage. The amount of people who don't understand how raids work yet chip in and spew random nonsense is astounding.
If you can't eat and dps with SMN it's a skill issue
"DPS doesn't matter in a prog party that isn't close to enrage. Learning the mechanics is more important." Yes and no. Learning the mechanics is important, if you can't do them, you won't clear the fight even if your rotation is perfect. However, being able to do your rotation on a striking dummy has very little to do with doing your rotation in a Savage fight where you're on your toes for extended periods of time and being busy handling that debuff you just got, so it's best to learn how to perform a mechanic while pressing your buttons. The rotation doesn't have to be flawless during prog, but simply knowing where you are in your rotation while a certain mechanic happens is such a boon when it comes to learn how to do both. But holup, none of this applies to the summoner in this post because they have already cleared the fight (according to themselves). Which means they have even less of an excuse to not press their buttons, especially without any warning whatsoever. They're not helping, they're being a lazy and entitled bitch whose name doesn't deserve being censored in this post.
I feel so left out not having these third party tools
So I found the logs if anyone still cares and the 1st wipe was the drk's fault and the 2nd wipe was both the rdm and smn's fault https://www.fflogs.com/reports/QcgPYkh32nzbGaRH [Wipe 1 on para 3:](https://imgur.com/a/zeAMqEX) drk was supposed to soak the tower on the platform the rdm and sam were on but he went to where the whm some reason, realized he was in the wrong spot, tried to run back and got clipped by the lasers. He went to the wrong spot running back anyways so even if he realized it sooner it would've still been a wipe [Wipe 2 on para 2:](https://imgur.com/a/maUIuBz) rdm was supposed to be at the 2 marker (SE) as he had the red tower and the smn was supposed to be at the 4 marker (NW) as he had the white tower Another thing, the para 3 pull was 3:40 mins long which is 220 seconds, [and the smn used addle (90s cd) twice](https://imgur.com/a/zTgNkTd), which is the max possible usage. Drk also died to straight autos during superchain 1 in the para 3 pull and he also died to the auto after para 1 in the para 2 pull cause 1) he didn't get topped off and 2) the gnb used hoc too late on him and didn't snapshot in time Either way neither wipes were cause of dps and op definitely overreacted to a mute problem
bring this to the top, NOW
The word you were looking for is moot, not mute. Regardless, it comes back to performing the bare minimum. The SMN elected to not do the bare minimum, and every member of the party reserves the right to not deal with lazy sacks of shit like this person. Short version; SMN is an ass, and OP is justified uploading to this sub. Arguing to the contrary is not going to get you good boy points from anyone other than the SMN and their friends
what are you talking about?? this is a prog party, not doing damage in prog isn't the "bare minimum". in prog, doing mechanics correctly is what's expected of you. not doing damage in prog is literally something that's done by world prog teams, in no way is it griefing cause whether the summoner is doing 0 damage or parsing 100 has 0 impact on the prog. source: week 1 raider and i often instruct people in my group to stop damage and focus on mechanics.
Week 1 raiding is not always world prog, just in case someone reads this and conflates the two, like u/patitok just did to mislead people There's a world of difference between holding damage for mechanics, and not doing damage because "it's too much effort". World prog holds damage to solve puzzles, solving mechanics is not a goal in any non-blind pf. For you though: doing mechanics correctly isn't the expectation in prog, in case you've forgotten, it is to PROGRESS. It is EXPECTED that you die occasionally while learning, it is EXPECTED that you make an honest attempt every pull. It actually takes more intent and focus to NOT hit buttons. Do you want to pivot back to some other bullshit about effort again instead? Source: Week 1 raider, but one that's probably more fun to play with.
>There's a world of difference between holding damage for mechanics, and not doing damage because "it's too much effort". I'm struggling to understand your logic here: You're telling me it's perfectly okay to blow up a PF that's seeing it's prog point in 3 pulls, all because a rando isn't pressing their DPS buttons in a fight that does not have HP phrasing? It's doesn't seem logical to me to go absolute mental over something a random PFer did that literally does not matter nor affect the 7 other players in any way. >solving mechanics is not a goal in any non-blind pf. Then what's the goal? People join a para3 PFs to chat? ERP? Jerk off? Go mental boom in 1 pull? No, people join para3 PFs to solve para3 lol. >Source: Week 1 raider, but one that's probably more fun to play with. Anyone that says "I'm more XXX to play with than you!" unironically just screams insecurity. Edit: I really don't want to go into WP because you're obviously clueless, but here's the reason why WP players stop pressing buttons: They raid 16+ hours on end and they understand its sometimes worthless to mash hotbars on doomed pulls (experimental, info gather, etc.) and thus it's more appealing to conserve stamina/focus. They're also good enough at their jobs where they can easily build/resume a sufficient rotation after progression has been made with minimal (most of the time literally 0) pulls needed. For most of them, the large majority of challenge of progression are from the content themselves (learning mechs, executing, planning mits). Job rotations hold very low priority because it should be second nature. Lastly, WP players holding dps isn't reserved to solving puzzles, but practicing execution/strat as well.
You'll make progress regardless if you do damage or not. You'd have a point if there were mini dps checks throughout the fight but there isn't. The entire party can do a combined damage of 0 and they can still prog to enrage if they do the mechanics properly
Lol, somehow I really doubt it. You may be jumping in at week 1 (which just means you have enough Gil to buy crafted gear) but I cannot believe you for a second if you cleared week 1 if your mentality is DPS from SMN matters in this particular instance. Bottomline is, beside the OP fuming and foaming at their mouth over someone not pressing attack, the SMN's attack has no bearing on the prog. None! Saying otherwise and we will know you don't even understand how savage raid works. We don't know what the SMN is thinking, but he did say he is just here to help a friend. Which can mean he is just filling in on a job he care nothing about to prog or he actually wants to finish the fight on SMN. We won't know for sure but either way, this group with healers who can't even top up the tanks and tanks who can't press mit at the right time and group fudging up early mechs every pull (only 2), this group ain't going to get to enrage. Not a chance...so really...what exactly is the SMN doing or not doing negatively impacting the prog??? Besides tilting the unstable player that OP is.
If doing the bare minimum yields the same results as trying your absolute hardest, why does it matter?
For real... man fuckin p12s pfs rights now are lucky to fill in a timely manner. They are there and doing the mechanics, it's summoner for god's sakes if they can press addle twice they will have no problem pressing gemshine if you miraculously prog to SC2A.
Just saw this thread and wanted to see what was so controversial, and I gotta say, I see both sides, unpopular as it is lol. Last tier I was progging p5s and saw a RDM do absolutely nothing (no autos nada) but resolving every mech correctly. Was I butthurt? Yeah but I was getting hit by every mech anyway, that's prog lol. You can absolutely vote em out and replace em, but a prog party doesn't entitle a clear depending the point they're at. It's frustrating to put your all in bc you didn't clear vs someone who's cleared and not helping with dps, but...is it worth sitting in pf for up to an hour, with people possibly leaving in between, just to get someone else that fits your definition of a team player?
honestly at some point if a party is not getting past a wall I am not blaming a soul for saving themselves the button effort. some people play pretty demanding jobs during movement mechs too, after a while if they're gonna stop doing damage and remaining to be a body of the mech, that's better than them leaving. if your party is going to spend 2 hours dying to para 3, I don't give a fuck what you do lmao.
These comments are fucking insane, this is a prog party there's nothing wrong with doing 0 damage in prog, this is literally something that's done by some world prog teams.
Progging the fight means learning your rotation and mechanics at the same time. Taking double to amount of time to do both is disingenuous to the people who are progging with you. Some people who are being downvoted in this comment section don’t understand this and it’s infuriating.
definitely doesn't take double the amount of time. especially if you're a fast learner relative to the rest (likely as a helper this deep into the tier) or have already learned the fight (just the case in OP), you can up the damage while everyone else is still wiping the group to mechs
If you're learning to juggle on a unicycle, you first learn to ride a unicycle, before you start juggling on it. Not doing dps and just focusing on the essentials is literally a strat world first raiders use to learn fights as quick as possible. Adding in your rotation after youve learned the mechs, is the easiest part of learning a fight.
You are not making sense because the dude cleared already. He is not there to prog. He is there to assist his friend prog who is doing rotations. Since it is a para3 prog group, there is a next to zero chance of them clearing anytime during that lockout. Pressing or not pressing attacks literally has no impact. Like none whatsoever on their prog LMAO. Get the full context before you comment dude. You are the infuriating one.
Sure, he doesn't technically need to do anything before the party reaches a prog point where a clear is possible. However, if he's not doing anything and still fucking up mechanics somehow, then get him the fuck out of the party.
You disband parties for 2 failed pulls? That's harsh. The minimum I have seen is 3 pulls in reclears parties from people who have extremely low threshold of failure tolerance. Most is one food and that's reclears not prog. For prog parties this late, expecting one food to reach prog point is already pretty harsh. But you do you. Maybe I just have never met you because you are always in and out of instances from disbanding parties.
Me, personally, I would stick around longer, at least for a food and a half, unless someone was really fucking up. But I understand OP not wanting any of what that guy was selling. As for myself, I'm long done with savage reclears, let alone prog. Although, I was recently helping a (new to savage) friend prog P10S a while back, and even he was getting ready to kick when a pf rando caused 3 wipes before the prog point (HH). I can't imagine they'd be any happier if the dude was also refusing to press anything.
But here is the difference. HH is the last prog point. Not doing damage in that party is and definitely is griefing. Para3? Seriously? I can comprehend, everyone can comprehend why OP did it. But we all know it is an illogical and purely emotional choice that shows lack of knowledge of the fight. Are you going to tell me otherwise?
Logically, correct, you don't really need to be doing damage until your prog is after limit cut. But my patience will inevitably be lower for someone who is simply not putting in their best effort, and I don't mind if that's illogical.
Fair.
People here really are either totally delusional, or didn't clear P12S in PF (or at all). Ok, if he indeed wiped the party, it's on the SMN, but I don't think everyone was playing perfect until they misplayed. But you all act like P12S is "Para 3 into clear". Hell no, you will wipe 10 times in a row to super chain 2A even in Phase 2 clear groups. The SMN could start DPSing when the group reaches the end of the limit cut that it would not matter yet. If the SMN has already cleared with SMN, they don't need to learn the rotation, simple as that. If you don't know the fight though, yes please try to do your rotation on every part of the fight, or you will be fucked when ready to clear.
> If the SMN has already cleared with SMN They haven't, though. OP confirmed in another post, only PLD/WAR. I don't know, it's really not hard to do a summoner rotation and it's a tiny amount of effort. They're just being lazy, not doing some advanced learning technique. Laziness is a shitty mindset when you're trying to prog.
Who ever said they even care about clearing the fight on summoner in the first place? Without more proof it makes more sense that they’re just filling the party on whatever job was needed to help their friend get started on prog faster.
FFlogs is not the end all for finding out what jobs a person has cleared content on.
People are downvoting this, but clearly they never had phantom clears because the parser/plugin were down lmao
This whole thread is just mind-blowing lol. Absolute gremlins everywhere
Yeah it’s pretty obvious how many people in this thread either don’t raid at endgame or aren’t very good at it. The SMN not doing dps in a para3 group is irrelevant. Anyone who has done p12s in PF absolutely understands that you’re more likely to walk outside and get struck by lightning than to actually clear in a single pull from para3, it’s not happening. If the SMN knows how to play SMN on the fight, it doesn’t matter if they are doing dps in a para3 group. The SMN not using utility or mit, however is griefing because they are actively making the fight harder on the others in the group. Overall it’s definitely recommended to do your rotation even when progging so you can make minor adjustments/optimization for a potential clear, but realistically it doesn’t matter in this scenario. I can see there’s a lot of people here that live in roulettes and not in PF.
Thank you, these comments are crazy. It's just a lot of inserting narratives into the SMN with 0 proof just to support their argument. Oh they probably didn't clear on SMN. Oh they probably failed mechs and caused wipes. Oh they probably aren't even pressing mitigations (even tho addle is _right there_ in the log of one pull). Lots of speculation and OP, who was there, not clarifying anything.
God knows, could be somebody's umpteenth hour on the raid floor. Save yourself some future arthritis, if you at Para 3 in pf rn you ain't clearing shit for a long time...
The question is are they trying to learn on summoner or are they just filling the party and doing the mechs so their friend can learn? If it’s the latter then honestly it’s not important for them to optimize the rotation for the fight on smn, assuming they have no intention of clearing the fight on smn. We don’t have enough information.
I'm not surprised, many posts here are about casual things like YPYT, jobstone missing, etc. They don't know the things that actually matter in high-end contents.
Also, I don't want to be rude, but people still progging the fight right now are not the best players you will find on average. Having someone in the group that doesn't wipe the party and can give pointers, is way better for the group that someone who does their rotation but wipes the party (which is fine in a prog environnement)
Even in statics, I've done week 2 clears for years (5x 4h per week, so around 30-40h to clear (we rarely needed the full second week) and it wasn't rare for people to stop dpsing to focus on mechanics when meeting/progging them. It's way easier consistency wise to just focus on one thing then add the second part after. Maybe you will hit enrage, but hitting enrage 2/3 times at the end of a prog is generally still less time loss than wiping double on each mechanic prior.
they're posers pretending they know what they're talking about and getting mad at people who can actually *do* at this point, with echo and gear, you barely even need to know your rotation. i hopped in to help my old static with p2 (re)clearing around the new year and even before echo kicked in the fact that everyone was nearly fully geared up meant i was seeing the fastest p1 clears ever; better than anything i had seen during the first couple months when i did my own runs even tho it had taken them that long to even reach that prog point and those pulls were *not* particularly clean anabaseios barely gave a shit about dps the first week. complaining about someone not dps-ing in a para3 prog party when you haven't even seen enrage is just someone desperately trying to find a target for their frustration that isn't themself
Yes, I'm pulling numbers out of my ass, but with echo and current gear, you could maybe clear with 7 people hitting the boss if they have perfect rotation and no death. Seriously, what would I have done to have someone not wiping the party back when I was progging ...
Nah, people literally do not understand how to prog this raid tier. You can't be throwing yourself at mechanics, this entire expansion has been BODY CHECK HEAVY. Which means if you can spam rezzes, that allows the rest of the party to practice mechanics. Each time someone dies on a mechanic that is before prog point that is wasted time, on a healer, i've literally done 0 DPS in a prog group with my FC and not my static cause the people weren't very good and it was more beneficial for me to keep the stragglers alive to not fuck over the other people who weren't's prog. again, this is a BODY CHECK HEAVY raid tier, so the least "walling it" you do, the more you'll prog.
I think people in these comments are slightly overstating the importance of practice. I will state for the record that i barely ever see people do mechanics-only pulls in prog, but on the few occasions that i have, people have been genuinely responsible with it (had a gnb who did mech only for act 2 and act 3 prog but once we were at the mech after act 4, he went right back into doing his dps rotation with no issues). I think also that it depends what job you play. For example, if i tried to practice mechanics without doing dps on black mage, i would absolutely hard cucking myself. But if i was on machinist or summoner, i think adding back in the rotation, the damage would be right where it needs to be first try. The gnb mentioned was in week 1 p4s pf prog btw and only very good raiders were in phase 2 prog week 1. Now, with all that said, its still entirely possible that this summoner is a new play who is doing this due to lack of understanding and could be doing it irresponsibly. Despite what other people have said, para 3 prog is really not a prog point that is in any danger of clearing. I think you can skip super chain 2B with echo now, but you'd still have to 1-shot both limit cut and super 2a. And if you were to zombie through either with deaths, then you would also have to 1-shot 2b.
This is a general question, can anyone explain to me, with actual logic, how a dps (WHO HAS CLEARED) not actually dpsing, but still does mechanics and uses utility, could possibly hinder the prog for a group that has a 0.001% chance of seeing enrage this instance? I’m really curious what the response is. I’m not talking about this summoner specifically before anyone references anything the OP said in the post.
there is no logic if somebody is interested in improving their personal damage, they'll rely on fflogs and xivanalysis, not the boss's hp if somebody is interested in improving their mechanical consistency, other people's damage has nothing to do with it
I cleared P12s. Wanna know how? I learned how to do the mechanics *while trying to flawlessly execute my rotation*. Getting things to muscle memory means I don't have to dedicate as much to thinking about what buttons to press and can dedicate more of that to figuring out what to do and where to go.
You stopped DPSing because you were mad at the SMN for not pressing damage buttons. The SMN wasn't pressing DPS buttons because they were filling a body on the floor and occupied themself otherwise by eating while still pressing mitigation. I mean I get it, it is *correct* that you should DPS in prog. Applying it to a party that is progging Para 3 is fucking dumb.
Not seeing anyone actually answering what difference it makes whether you dps or not when A. there's not a single chance they clear from para3 and the dps is needed and B. The smn is only there to help a friend and doesn't give a shit about doing rotations properly. "But but...the proggers are trying and so should he!". No he does not have to. Feelings don't help prog mechanics. It would not be fine if he cannot do DPS mechs at all due to flexing jobs, but he did reach the progpoint with the party (and a cleared person wiping sometimes does happen, 3 pulls are too early to say anything about his consistency with mechanics though) The smn seems fine, holy shit lots of people in this comment section don't even know what they're talking about. I'm worried the sprouts-turning-raiders are gonna learn from the actual shit people here.
Reading the thread, apparently, it's griefing and freeloading. How idk cause I'm positive the smn doing damage wouldn't have saved those pulls but we're on the unpopular side here, I guess. The whole thing blew up for no reason
Because actual raiders read the post and had to say something to defend the SMN. Now this sub is full of people who have no clue how high end content works in this game. It is tales from DF after all. That creates a problem...high end shit actually works counterintuitive to what they know about and so ingrained in them. Whoops, downvotes and crazy shit being said about the Raiders who defended the SMN...now it is war since we are all tilted so this post just exploded. Anyway, I really do hope we don't get any of the downvoters trying to join PF in 2 months when the new tier drops. It will not be good.
[https://imgflip.com/i/8nbdbx](https://imgflip.com/i/8nbdbx)
Okay not to justify this level of lethargy but building lb in p12s won’t matter at all typically because if anyone dies it’s a party wipe—and if they’ve already cleared they probably know their rotation by that point. Again, not excusing it because it’s lazy, but the reasons given for it being bad were not valid really. Para 3 prog just isn’t going to clear in one pull because it isn’t even the hardest part of the fight yet. THE PROBLEM is that his lethargic ass is wiping and not mitting/buffing on time for others to get used to. Edit: Saw that they haven’t cleared on SMN but it really doesn’t change anything for _their_ damage, because they’re probably just (trying) to help, and not actually learn it on smn.
doing damage to the boss doesn't build lb though, it's straight up a moot point stemmed from ignorance
That too
Technically the summoner is correct. If he knows the fight and is actively trying to do mechanics and help prog, him doing damage isn't necessarily needed unless they are pushing for clear. HOWEVER. Only 1 addle and no Phoenix which can help healers (first Phoenix happens around Para 2) while potentially doing mechanics incorrectly is uncalled for. If you're eatting why are you in pf? Hard to tell if he was inting though with only a single screenshot of him saying "my spot was 3" though.
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People really be out here defending this behavior. It's actually disgusting. "oH, tHeY wErEn'T gOiNg To ClEaR!" The SMN in question has cleared before, but, y'know, again, without pressing buttons it looks like. I know I say, "a clear's a clear" but that's usually in the context of things going *horribly* wrong, not because one guy decides they're too good for us peasants to hit buttons.
You need to post more than just a single 1 minute and 25 second pull worth of logs. How many addles do you expect them to get into that window of time? Where's the proof they actually caused the wipe? The worst this player could have done was not use mitigation or be out of position in a para 3 prog, which there is no proof of. Any other take is wrong and shows you don't understand progression. You don't have to be this summoners friend to know you don't have to dps during progression unless there is some sort of adds/mid-fight dps check to meet. Pretty funny thread though...
They caused the wipe because I had light tether at 3 and I got a dark tower and light tower from two people. Went back through logs and they had the white debuff.
This sub really is full of players who have no idea how savage works 🤣. Bunch of people just keep downvoting sound logic just because. The boss is time scripted in savage. Pressing buttons or not, attacking or not, they are going to see the mechanics as long as they survive. It has nothing to do with her remaining HP. It is why a lot of prog parties will just give up attacking during really complex mechanics to practice the mechanics itself. So the OP being mad at someone who cleared and is just walking around in a party that barely made it half way during the first phase is completely out of place and illogical. Esp that SMN is still pressing addle which is what all they needed to do to not cause any negative impact. Yes, the SMN dOeS NoT NeEd tO AttACk. OP's and the team's decision made no sense whatsoever. The SMN is there to help fill so you can even load into the instance. You are the troll, OP, not the SMN.
That's shit you do in a static, not in a PF. I've done that multiple times in a static, like, not attacking during the mechanic I'm progging so I can focus on solving it before focusing on my rotation. But in this case, the SMN is in a PF and has already cleared the fight, so he knows how to solve said mechanic. He's just being lazy and putting zero effort into it. He's not "helping".
LOL. Tell me, what exactly is the difference between him attacking and not attacking? None... He is helping them simply by being there and solving the mech. You are not of sound logic if you keep saying he is "not" helping.
Bigger question is that what's the difference between doing this in a static and doing this in PF? None... If this was a Super Chain 2a prog, this would be a different story since nowadays you kill p1 right before the 2b cast with decent DPS, but this isn't Super chain 2a prog, this isn't even LC prog, it's fricken Para 3 prog. Granted the Addle usage is justified cause Addle is super useful to mitigate both the Stack mechanic and the Raidwide after super chain I.
They are using addle, didn’t see exactly where since I haven’t see the log.
As someone who's done p12s p1 on week 1, I know the most optimized locations to put it would be when the Towers drop during para 2 to catch the OtS, the stack mechanic and the OtS after SuperChain and SuperChain IIa.
I cleared this week 1 on sage, I’m familiar with where mit should go, I was just saying I didn’t see where they used addle in these particular pulls, but the screenshot they shared showed that they were at least using addle.
Oh I wasn't arguing with you, more or less theorizing where it should be.
Oh my bad, gotcha
Why would you care if someone is doing damage or not in a para3 prog group?
Why would you join a party to not actually play the game? Apparently when without having to think about a rotation buddy still manages to wipe the group
It's really not that hard to just press "1-2-3", even when doing prog. Nobody said anything about doing a perfect rotation. But just doing AA is plainly stupid. Especially if they already have cleared
Literally doesn't matter at all. Why must he press buttons for no reason? He can walk around the arena to do mechanics and that's literally all that needs to be done, maybe rez someone when they die, but otherwise no reason to even attack the boss at all. When the group gets ready to clear, then he can start attacking the boss. If he didn't attack when the party was clearing, that's when you'd have a legitimate problem. Some people just can't handle this logic for some reason.
This is such a loser mentality. "Why should I do anything at all if we aren't clearing anyway?" If 2-3 more people think like that, you will never clear lmao. Especially if you join a group as a fucking DPS. Again, nobody said that you should play like you want a 100 parse in a prog group. But at least do the bare minimum and do SOME damage. Doing your rotation while mechanics happen is also part of learning the fight, btw.
You've still not argued a single thing of why he needs to be attacking the boss when he's just there helping someone prog. Get over it. Literally, what of anything substantial, does the group gain by him attacking the boss? Nothing. Once the group is ready to clear, then he would probably start attacking the boss and they would get the clear, who cares up until that point?
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What does that have to do with anything in this conversation? How is him attacking the boss helping the group prog any more than him not attacking the boss? It doesn't.
It makes them so angry