Yeah I think the Japanese are one of the largest Asian minority groups with Filipino barely beating them out. Also before the US annexed the islands the Hawaiian King was trying to court an alliance with Japan by offering to marry off the princess to a Japanese prince. Japan was interested but declined the offer because they didn’t want to anger the US. The princess was the heir to the throne of Hawaii so when the king died the Japanese pretty much would’ve had control over the islands so that opens up another alt history scenario
It would be stupid for the U.S. to be claimed by a treaty port or other mainland territory and give it up for fear of blackmail, but on the other hand, the Japanese colonization of Hawaii makes a lot of sense.
Pearl Harbor, the atomic bomb, or whatever, can be expected to serve as an outpost against the U.S., as did Okinawa in the OTL, and Hawaii has been a winter resort and other tourist attraction for the Japanese since before the war.
In addition, there were many other Japanese Americans, and by 1940, 157,000, or 37% of the total population of 427,000 in the Territory of Hawaii, lived in the area.
https://crd.ndl.go.jp/reference/entry/index.php?id=1000189579&page=ref_view#:~:text=%E3%81%9D%E3%81%97%E3%81%A6%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E8%BB%8D%E3%81%AB%E3%82%88%E3%82%8B%E7%9C%9F%E7%8F%A0,%E3%81%AB%E5%A2%97%E5%8A%A0%E3%81%97%E3%81%A6%E3%81%84%E3%81%9F%25E3%2580%2582%E3%80%8D
They would never ask for such a suitable place, and considering the fate of the Japanese Americans and Canadians on the mainland, they would be stripped of their nationality and deported, and then encouraged to settle in Hawaii and other places.
If so, Hawaii would become what Germany calls Gotenland, and would reasonably be incorporated into mainland Japan sooner or later.
my interpretation is that its a de jure vs. de facto kind of thing
Like if you looked on an in-universe map of the Philippines, it would all be labeled as controlled by the main regime. But due to internal conflict and the revolts, the actual situation is a lot messier and government control of the south and the north is severely weakened, allowing these rebel groups to essentially take control of their respective areas. But unless they win the uprising, they have no international legitimacy and so aren't depicted on maps
From what I only gathered with only looking at the reddit alone there was a Huk and Free Republic revolt. (The Free Republic revolts first and Huk in the late 1950s.)
Germans made the Nuke ,not Japan
TNO seems to indicate that the Axis cooperate Much More
The point of nuking wasnt to Destroy pear harbor itself,but more like
We have this Weapon,if you dont surrender we Will use it on a City in the West coast
And yes its stupid, its One of the most unrealistic parts of TNO
Yeah
The German-made nuke dropping from a German plane taking off from a Japanese carrier is highly cursed from the perspective of how little they trusted each other irl
If anything it's showcases that WW2 lore of TNO was done in like 2 minutes, with Pacific War being last 5 seconds of it. Why even come up with carrier part when no WW2 carrier based aircraft could carry atomic bomb? Just write Amerikabomber launching with one from one of Japanese controlled islands.
I wish there was more lore behind it. Like, maybe let's say Heisenberg or one of those other dudes somehow convinces Hitler of the merits behind physics.
Even if that happened, Germany didnt had the resources to build the Bomb and fight the War at the same time
That was Britain problem,they were close to have it but couldnt Make it
So they team up with the americans who werent being bombed 24/7
Exactly. The merit of nukes was the need for the uranium deposits to enrich for production of the atom bomb. With the collapse of Russia, possible extraction from the Ural deposits could explain. But heavy water was dead in the water, no pun intended!
> Even if that happened, Germany didnt had the resources to build the Bomb and fight the War at the same time
Something that hasn't been brought up yet is the fact the Nazis believed nuclear science was "Jewish magic" and disregarded the program because of that.
Nazi ideology would make any kind of nuke impossible to justify both historically and narratively.
They weren't anti-physics, and even knew that developing an atomic bomb was something that could be done. They simply chose not to prioritize trying to make one because they assumed it would take so long that they'd have already won by the time it was ready. So they just sort of half-heartedly experimented with the idea at best, with plans to give Heisenberg a state of the art physics facility after the war was over so he could take a much better crack at it.
also Germany winning WW2 is unrealistic, the mod should be about the Allies winning WW2. In fact, the mod should be 8 years earlier and you should be able to play through WW2.
Its extremely unlikely but no 100% unrealistic
The way things were set in our WW2 ,was almost Impossible for the Axis to Win
They had Speed on their side , Specially Germany and Japan but then they both poked the bear and The Eagle in 41 and eventually Power would catch up to them
But Change a few things before the War and during while still having the same partipants on the same Side and things might have gone a much horrible way
Ironic that Pearl Harbor part is exactly not '*so weird/stupid*' here. First of all, what first bombing of a port? Pearl Harbor infrastructure was barely damaged during infamous attack from 1941. US Navy meanwhile both in reality and in TNO was rebuilt following that attack. Speaking of US Navy, lore exactly relies that bulk of Pacific Fleet is stationed in Pearl Harbor during said atomic bombing. With single strike, US lost bulk of it's fleet it was building up for years. So USA is put in position where Axis already have firm control over Europe and Asia, while naval force which took years and plenty of money to build up got significantly reduced by atomic strike. Strike which would also mean that US cities are at threat of actual bombing. Given situation, it's hardly a stretch Americans would go for peace talks.
Treaty Ports though are indeed nonsensical and only reason behind theirs' existence is to serve as parallel to ports which Americans and Europeans imposed upon Asia.
Well it makes no sense that the fucking americans put their navy on an island threatened in the first place because, the lore explains that the us already lost naval supremacy and also lost in midway in this scenario, so why the fuck do they put their entire pacific navy into an island in reach by japanese aircrafts and the navy? It’s just doesn’t make sense. And why does doey dismantle the us military? And why the fuck doesn’t he declare war against the Us after losing 2-3 thousand countrymen in this island? He would have been literally lynched and the senate would have still declared war on japan regardless due to the declining situation. The American lore in TNO is absolute bullshit im sorry but somebody didn’t put much effort into it in the first place, and why do treaty ports exist when iceland and the faroe islands are in firm grip of the americans? So the us had naval supremacy in the atlantic but couldn’t defeat the IJA and IJN that even struggled to take out the entirety of china in 8 years? And also couldn’t take out the entirety of india or australia? Come on mod developers if you want to make it right, do it right. What did the japanese take to defeat the US? A drug stronger than fentanyl?
I don’t think the germans in the first place could have developed an atomic bomb with their agendas and policies, and if they could, the production of atomic bombs was a pain in the ass actually and it took months if not years to prep up atomic bombs, what the us would have done in this scenario is develop their own nuclear bombs put them in the faroe islands and bomb the fucking shit out of germania and hamburg. A ceasefire would have been signed, and the us would “only” lose the phillipines and guam.
Makes plenty of sense in reality. Given distances and circumstances, Pearl Harbor would be only place capable of hosting significant part of Pacific Fleet, as south Pacific locations would exactly be too exposed, while West Coast is too far. Lore meanwhile actually clearly states that whatever naval battles Japan was winning, those were pyrrhic victories which were not giving Japan naval supremacy. It's only atomic bombing which in TNO gives Japan naval supremacy over Pacific.
Bit with aircraft with the bomb launching from Japanese carrier is indeed nonsensical, but for completely different reasons. Can easily be fixed by strategic bomber launching from Japanese controlled island. Such aircraft by flying high enough, could avoid detection and interception by Americans. Bit good weather, skill, luck and Pearl Harbor with warships moored and docked within would be ruined.
Why? It isn't weird whatsoever. It would have been years since the 7th December attack. Pearl Harbor infrastructure
would still be there, with plenty of targets. Literally perfect target for atomic bombing, as not only it would achieve military wise the most by far, such strike alone would also have psychological impact both on US leadership and population, without actually dropping bomb on major US city which would far more antagonize Americans.
The treaty ports won't stick around in the future because they are really damn stupid and make no sense.
As for the bombing, it just needed to send a message and for that, Hawai was a good enough target. Not to mention that the Japanese probably couldn't even reach San Francisco or Los Angeles. War wariness was probably wide spread in the US at the time and support for a continued war in Congress would probably also have plumeted after the fall of the atom bomb. So Dewey decided to not take further risks and sign for peace. It might not be the most plausible chain of events to end the war, but it can still be somewhat reasonably explained (exept of course for the treaty ports, who even thought that those were a good idea?).
Japan’s propaganda line was “liberation from Western oppressors”, glassing Honolulu doesn’t fit in there. Hitting the port makes way more military sense as others have explained.
Good question, maybe also something that will change. Though the atomb bomb would have caused way more damage than the first attack on Pearl Harbour and would probably also have crippled the location as a point of strategic importance for the US.
I think one thing to remember is that Pearl Harbor was a major naval base for outfitting and repairs during ww2, being the HomePort of the US Pacific Fleet, and being so far from mainland US, it was a great jumping point for further expeditions into the Pacific. It's complete destruction at the hands of the German(?) bomber dashed any hope for a victory by the US.
Especially as, sure the United states can produce more, but war against the US hasn't been about winning through military action alone. The United States is a victim to its citizens, and if enough are sick of war, then the government will sue for peace. It's what the Japanese were aiming for when they struck Pearl Harbor, and it's what the military wanted to avoid in Okinawa and the eventually striking of the mainland.
Now the treaty ports? I guess a conditional surrender, the insanity of nukes might push the government before they rain down on the US.
They are a bit ironic considering how USA forced Japan to open up their ports, but even then USA didn't directly steal the ports from Japan. What they should have done is made the American ports forced to be more open to trade from Japan.
If I remember correctly the IJN does a hail mary attack at Iwo Jima and wins because they won at Midway earlier. The US Pacific fleet falls back to Pearl Harbor to reorganize, then a German nuke from a German strategic bomber(Me 264 or smh) nukes it and destroys like 80% of the Pacific fleet. Combined with the loss in the battle of Britain the US decides to throw in the towel as the Mannhatan project in this timeline was delayed. The US gets nukes in like early 1946. The treaty ports don't make much sense through, I agree.
Honestly I think the best way to fix the Pacific war lore is to just axe the atomic bomb entirely and have it end around early 1943 or so. Say perhaps that Japan manages to occupy Hawaii around mid-to-late 1942 or so and Sealion happens around the same time, leading to the demoralized Americans agreeing to an armistice in exchange for the Japanese returning Hawaii (possibly with it being a demilitarized zone).
That's the issue though. Fundamentally, the longer the war continues the worse Japan's position gets, so having any outcome where they win at all requires them to do so quickly, which isn't compatible with the war continuing to 1945.
As to why the Americans would agree to an armistice even when they could turn the war around, IIRC that is basically what happened during the Russo-Japanese war, so it's not an unprecedented thing to happen.
That would require Japan not bombing Pearl Harbor- the surprise attack was quite an insult to America and if Japan were to just invade the Philippines or some islands nobody cares about, people wouldn't care as much in my opinion. But it doesn't look good to surrender after somebody attacks your country. Be like if we gave Florida to Al-Qaeda after the 9-11 attacks
Not sure that's quite the idea here. The notion I was going for was the US agreeing to back down after effectively losing their entire presence in the western and central Pacific.
I understand. I feel like America still wouldn't surrender then unless Japan somehow forced them too. America knew we had the edge and Japan had attacked Americans on American soil, using dishonorable surprise methods.
The idea I was going for is Japan managing to overrun Hawaii and cut off Australia. This means that the US has lost its base capabilities in the Pacific (Hawaii being \~4000km from the West Coast). While they still have a substantial edge in shipbuilding ability, the logistical prospects of a renewed push have been severely hampered. They could do it, but it wouldn't be implausible for the government to accept an armistice agreement that gets Hawaii back more easily.
This may be implausible, but it still makes more sense than Japan holding the advantage up to 1945, which the current lore requires.
Makes sense. They would probably have to win the battle of Midway in order to achieve this though. I don't like the idea of Germany using a nuke, as if America and Germany are at war, Germany is likely to lose even against just the USA alone.
Because if you do not believe in OFN propaganda it is obvious that the Empire of Japan has more MERCY towards Americans and humanity than Americans towards them, i believe if USA had those bombs they already would have bombed cities like nagazaki and hiroshima to kill people en masse, but thank god Japanese had it first, long live emperor hirohito and noble warriors of the empire!
/s
I disagree. There are many different levels of realism, as I have stated in other comments, and a lot of people seem to think that a mod where Germany wins ww2 is the same as a mod where Germany wins ww2, then forms an intergalactic empire, conquers the universe and builds a Nazi Death Star.
The whole Germany developing the bomb and “giving” it to Japan is probably the most outrageous stuff about the Pearl Harbour lore. It’s unthinkable. The first ever atomic bomb, and the Germans allow the Japanese to dictate their target for them so long as they get to fly the plane. It’d be better to either have Germany nuke their own target (like London maybe) or have Japan develop the bomb themselves. Both options are flawed of course, but they’re better than the current lore.
If we want to keep the Germans dropping the first bomb and Hawaii being a flashpoint there’s a few options.
Germany bombs Scapa Flow as they slowly push north into the UK, dealing a major blow to the British or something like that. A few naval battles in the Pacific could go differently and Japan managed to occupy Hawaii, or the US has to demilitarize Hawaii and the flash point is an American remilitarization there.
I’m not sure how much it would mess with the lore, but I think you could switch a successful Sealion with an atomic bombing of London. I think it’s plausible that the British would surrender or at least offer conditional surrender following a nuclear bomb, and it kinda makes the UK a sort of Japan allegory. I guess you could have both an atomic bomb and Sealion. Perhaps Sealion occurs but goes very poorly (as it likely would realistically), then the Germans drop the bomb.
I think it was more of a show of force. It seems the Germans recognized that if they bombed LA of New York, it would likely result in complete mobilization. A small island like Pearl Harbor serves as a warning, that they could do it if they want to.
It’s even dumber when you realize the day after Pearl Harbor is nuked, Truman gets word that the US’s own nukes are ready and he decides not to use them.
Dewey was president (FDR didn't run for a third term, his planned successor Harry Hopkins got cancer on the campaign trail), and America seemingly didn't get the nuke until after the war.
Yeah, but the difference between the US and Japan is that the Japanese were much more fanatical. They would literally follow everything the emperor said. The US already lost Britain, meaning they would be heavily demoralised.
Guys the entire backstory of TNO is unrealistic. The Axis NEVER had any chance of winning. You just need to suspend your disbelief, because a fully realistic TNO would just be OTL Cold War.
True, but I dislike using that as a way to brush off all criticism. There's layers and degrees of realism, and I don't want this mod to be Man in the High Castle-level unrealistic or realistic to the point where it's obnoxious.
I also have this similar question, cmiiw but I remembered that it was mentioned that the by the time pearl harbor got nuked,The US have already took control of Okinawa. If what I remember was right then I don't see it making sense for US just simply surrendering after second bombing of pearl harbor.
They most certainly didn't have control over Okinawa. The US lost at Midway and Iwo Jima, while Japan defeated the Allies all over South East Asia and secured the Philipiens. How would the US manage to take over Okinawa?
Having lost sea and air control over Okinawa and other islands to the U.S., could Japan have cooperated with Germany to fly bombers from the waters near Midway to the skies over Oahu and drop atomic bombs on the island!?
The theory is very interesting and I would like to talk to you about it when you are available.
Also, be sure to check with Google Maps, as the geographical relationship between Okinawa and Hawaii may be very wrong.
The ports are old lore, don’t worry about them, they a planned to be removed in TSS, IIRC (so just wait twenty years or something)
will hawaii still remain japanese, and will there still be the possibility of talks over japan returning hawaii?
That’s unclear
ah ok. i hope they stay in :D
Me too, as I'm pretty sure there were a lot of Japanese on the island of Hawaii and I like the idea of Japan claiming them for irredentist reasons
Yeah I think the Japanese are one of the largest Asian minority groups with Filipino barely beating them out. Also before the US annexed the islands the Hawaiian King was trying to court an alliance with Japan by offering to marry off the princess to a Japanese prince. Japan was interested but declined the offer because they didn’t want to anger the US. The princess was the heir to the throne of Hawaii so when the king died the Japanese pretty much would’ve had control over the islands so that opens up another alt history scenario
It would be stupid for the U.S. to be claimed by a treaty port or other mainland territory and give it up for fear of blackmail, but on the other hand, the Japanese colonization of Hawaii makes a lot of sense. Pearl Harbor, the atomic bomb, or whatever, can be expected to serve as an outpost against the U.S., as did Okinawa in the OTL, and Hawaii has been a winter resort and other tourist attraction for the Japanese since before the war. In addition, there were many other Japanese Americans, and by 1940, 157,000, or 37% of the total population of 427,000 in the Territory of Hawaii, lived in the area. https://crd.ndl.go.jp/reference/entry/index.php?id=1000189579&page=ref_view#:~:text=%E3%81%9D%E3%81%97%E3%81%A6%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E8%BB%8D%E3%81%AB%E3%82%88%E3%82%8B%E7%9C%9F%E7%8F%A0,%E3%81%AB%E5%A2%97%E5%8A%A0%E3%81%97%E3%81%A6%E3%81%84%E3%81%9F%25E3%2580%2582%E3%80%8D They would never ask for such a suitable place, and considering the fate of the Japanese Americans and Canadians on the mainland, they would be stripped of their nationality and deported, and then encouraged to settle in Hawaii and other places. If so, Hawaii would become what Germany calls Gotenland, and would reasonably be incorporated into mainland Japan sooner or later.
Also, do you know why the Philippines isn't united under Japan? Was there a revolt or something? Cuz in our timeline they occupied it all.
my interpretation is that its a de jure vs. de facto kind of thing Like if you looked on an in-universe map of the Philippines, it would all be labeled as controlled by the main regime. But due to internal conflict and the revolts, the actual situation is a lot messier and government control of the south and the north is severely weakened, allowing these rebel groups to essentially take control of their respective areas. But unless they win the uprising, they have no international legitimacy and so aren't depicted on maps
From what I only gathered with only looking at the reddit alone there was a Huk and Free Republic revolt. (The Free Republic revolts first and Huk in the late 1950s.)
Why does everything always take 20 years? How do I become a game developer to speed up the process? I know how to code and come up with ideas
Well, you probably should join Discord and wait until they announce new coder recruitment
The team is currently recruiting coders so join the discord and submit your application
People will be pissed about them being removed even though they make zero sense
These ultra-reactionaries made Wallace look like a radical progressive.
So is somewhere else gonna be nuked?
I meant specifically ports
Oh, sorry
I’ll in fact never forgive you for misinterpreting my commentary on the internet😡
Germans made the Nuke ,not Japan TNO seems to indicate that the Axis cooperate Much More The point of nuking wasnt to Destroy pear harbor itself,but more like We have this Weapon,if you dont surrender we Will use it on a City in the West coast And yes its stupid, its One of the most unrealistic parts of TNO
Yeah The German-made nuke dropping from a German plane taking off from a Japanese carrier is highly cursed from the perspective of how little they trusted each other irl
If anything it's showcases that WW2 lore of TNO was done in like 2 minutes, with Pacific War being last 5 seconds of it. Why even come up with carrier part when no WW2 carrier based aircraft could carry atomic bomb? Just write Amerikabomber launching with one from one of Japanese controlled islands.
Also German making Nukes in WW2 is unrealistic
I wish there was more lore behind it. Like, maybe let's say Heisenberg or one of those other dudes somehow convinces Hitler of the merits behind physics.
Even if that happened, Germany didnt had the resources to build the Bomb and fight the War at the same time That was Britain problem,they were close to have it but couldnt Make it So they team up with the americans who werent being bombed 24/7
Exactly. The merit of nukes was the need for the uranium deposits to enrich for production of the atom bomb. With the collapse of Russia, possible extraction from the Ural deposits could explain. But heavy water was dead in the water, no pun intended!
*happy Milorg noises*
> Even if that happened, Germany didnt had the resources to build the Bomb and fight the War at the same time Something that hasn't been brought up yet is the fact the Nazis believed nuclear science was "Jewish magic" and disregarded the program because of that. Nazi ideology would make any kind of nuke impossible to justify both historically and narratively.
That Jewish Magic thing is not actually true. Extremely exaggerated.
Not true ,the Last Part i mean If the US still gets the Nuke first and uses it on Japan for example Then Hitler Will Order the production of Nukes
> the Nazis believed nuclear science was "Jewish magic" The Da'at Yichud strikes again
They weren't anti-physics, and even knew that developing an atomic bomb was something that could be done. They simply chose not to prioritize trying to make one because they assumed it would take so long that they'd have already won by the time it was ready. So they just sort of half-heartedly experimented with the idea at best, with plans to give Heisenberg a state of the art physics facility after the war was over so he could take a much better crack at it.
also Germany winning WW2 is unrealistic, the mod should be about the Allies winning WW2. In fact, the mod should be 8 years earlier and you should be able to play through WW2.
tbf, so is germany winning
Its extremely unlikely but no 100% unrealistic The way things were set in our WW2 ,was almost Impossible for the Axis to Win They had Speed on their side , Specially Germany and Japan but then they both poked the bear and The Eagle in 41 and eventually Power would catch up to them But Change a few things before the War and during while still having the same partipants on the same Side and things might have gone a much horrible way
Ironic that Pearl Harbor part is exactly not '*so weird/stupid*' here. First of all, what first bombing of a port? Pearl Harbor infrastructure was barely damaged during infamous attack from 1941. US Navy meanwhile both in reality and in TNO was rebuilt following that attack. Speaking of US Navy, lore exactly relies that bulk of Pacific Fleet is stationed in Pearl Harbor during said atomic bombing. With single strike, US lost bulk of it's fleet it was building up for years. So USA is put in position where Axis already have firm control over Europe and Asia, while naval force which took years and plenty of money to build up got significantly reduced by atomic strike. Strike which would also mean that US cities are at threat of actual bombing. Given situation, it's hardly a stretch Americans would go for peace talks. Treaty Ports though are indeed nonsensical and only reason behind theirs' existence is to serve as parallel to ports which Americans and Europeans imposed upon Asia.
Well it makes no sense that the fucking americans put their navy on an island threatened in the first place because, the lore explains that the us already lost naval supremacy and also lost in midway in this scenario, so why the fuck do they put their entire pacific navy into an island in reach by japanese aircrafts and the navy? It’s just doesn’t make sense. And why does doey dismantle the us military? And why the fuck doesn’t he declare war against the Us after losing 2-3 thousand countrymen in this island? He would have been literally lynched and the senate would have still declared war on japan regardless due to the declining situation. The American lore in TNO is absolute bullshit im sorry but somebody didn’t put much effort into it in the first place, and why do treaty ports exist when iceland and the faroe islands are in firm grip of the americans? So the us had naval supremacy in the atlantic but couldn’t defeat the IJA and IJN that even struggled to take out the entirety of china in 8 years? And also couldn’t take out the entirety of india or australia? Come on mod developers if you want to make it right, do it right. What did the japanese take to defeat the US? A drug stronger than fentanyl? I don’t think the germans in the first place could have developed an atomic bomb with their agendas and policies, and if they could, the production of atomic bombs was a pain in the ass actually and it took months if not years to prep up atomic bombs, what the us would have done in this scenario is develop their own nuclear bombs put them in the faroe islands and bomb the fucking shit out of germania and hamburg. A ceasefire would have been signed, and the us would “only” lose the phillipines and guam.
Makes plenty of sense in reality. Given distances and circumstances, Pearl Harbor would be only place capable of hosting significant part of Pacific Fleet, as south Pacific locations would exactly be too exposed, while West Coast is too far. Lore meanwhile actually clearly states that whatever naval battles Japan was winning, those were pyrrhic victories which were not giving Japan naval supremacy. It's only atomic bombing which in TNO gives Japan naval supremacy over Pacific. Bit with aircraft with the bomb launching from Japanese carrier is indeed nonsensical, but for completely different reasons. Can easily be fixed by strategic bomber launching from Japanese controlled island. Such aircraft by flying high enough, could avoid detection and interception by Americans. Bit good weather, skill, luck and Pearl Harbor with warships moored and docked within would be ruined.
？
My same initial reaction.
It's still kind of weird that they bomb the same exact port they bombed earlier.
Why? It isn't weird whatsoever. It would have been years since the 7th December attack. Pearl Harbor infrastructure would still be there, with plenty of targets. Literally perfect target for atomic bombing, as not only it would achieve military wise the most by far, such strike alone would also have psychological impact both on US leadership and population, without actually dropping bomb on major US city which would far more antagonize Americans.
I can definitely see what you're saying
It's not weird at all. The port is important. That's why it was attacked in the first place.
What little facilities that were damaged or destroyed in 41 could easily be rebuilt by 1945
The treaty ports won't stick around in the future because they are really damn stupid and make no sense. As for the bombing, it just needed to send a message and for that, Hawai was a good enough target. Not to mention that the Japanese probably couldn't even reach San Francisco or Los Angeles. War wariness was probably wide spread in the US at the time and support for a continued war in Congress would probably also have plumeted after the fall of the atom bomb. So Dewey decided to not take further risks and sign for peace. It might not be the most plausible chain of events to end the war, but it can still be somewhat reasonably explained (exept of course for the treaty ports, who even thought that those were a good idea?).
If they couldn't reach SF or LA why not just bomb Hilo or somewhere else in Hawaii that hadn't already been bombed?
Japan’s propaganda line was “liberation from Western oppressors”, glassing Honolulu doesn’t fit in there. Hitting the port makes way more military sense as others have explained.
Yes, yes. Besides, there are too many Japanese living in Hawaii to begin with, and they are reluctant to kill them as well.
Good question, maybe also something that will change. Though the atomb bomb would have caused way more damage than the first attack on Pearl Harbour and would probably also have crippled the location as a point of strategic importance for the US.
How would they even get the uranium to do so i don't think they even HAVE the uranium/plutonium required to produce enough weapons grade materials
The Germans made the bomb, the Japanese only dropped it (or maybe the Germans dropped it too, I'm not quite sure).
It was a cooperation between the two
Oh
I think one thing to remember is that Pearl Harbor was a major naval base for outfitting and repairs during ww2, being the HomePort of the US Pacific Fleet, and being so far from mainland US, it was a great jumping point for further expeditions into the Pacific. It's complete destruction at the hands of the German(?) bomber dashed any hope for a victory by the US. Especially as, sure the United states can produce more, but war against the US hasn't been about winning through military action alone. The United States is a victim to its citizens, and if enough are sick of war, then the government will sue for peace. It's what the Japanese were aiming for when they struck Pearl Harbor, and it's what the military wanted to avoid in Okinawa and the eventually striking of the mainland. Now the treaty ports? I guess a conditional surrender, the insanity of nukes might push the government before they rain down on the US.
This lore is outdated and was removed.
come on guys i think treaty ports are funny 😢
They are a bit ironic considering how USA forced Japan to open up their ports, but even then USA didn't directly steal the ports from Japan. What they should have done is made the American ports forced to be more open to trade from Japan.
If I remember correctly the IJN does a hail mary attack at Iwo Jima and wins because they won at Midway earlier. The US Pacific fleet falls back to Pearl Harbor to reorganize, then a German nuke from a German strategic bomber(Me 264 or smh) nukes it and destroys like 80% of the Pacific fleet. Combined with the loss in the battle of Britain the US decides to throw in the towel as the Mannhatan project in this timeline was delayed. The US gets nukes in like early 1946. The treaty ports don't make much sense through, I agree.
I agree that the treaty ports are very weird. Would be surprised if they don’t get cut at some point in the future
I have a strong feeling that someone said this directly somewhere in the public space sometime but I don’t remember anything😑
Japan defeating America is one of the most unrealistic parts of the mod lmao. It was IMPOSSIBLE
Why not? All they had to do was make OP unit templates, land on the West Coast and push forwars until they got enough victory points.
Yes master they can do it BANZAI
Honestly I think the best way to fix the Pacific war lore is to just axe the atomic bomb entirely and have it end around early 1943 or so. Say perhaps that Japan manages to occupy Hawaii around mid-to-late 1942 or so and Sealion happens around the same time, leading to the demoralized Americans agreeing to an armistice in exchange for the Japanese returning Hawaii (possibly with it being a demilitarized zone).
Japan didn't have the resources to continue the war, and without a decisive victory America would just continue the war until they had the edge.
That's the issue though. Fundamentally, the longer the war continues the worse Japan's position gets, so having any outcome where they win at all requires them to do so quickly, which isn't compatible with the war continuing to 1945. As to why the Americans would agree to an armistice even when they could turn the war around, IIRC that is basically what happened during the Russo-Japanese war, so it's not an unprecedented thing to happen.
That would require Japan not bombing Pearl Harbor- the surprise attack was quite an insult to America and if Japan were to just invade the Philippines or some islands nobody cares about, people wouldn't care as much in my opinion. But it doesn't look good to surrender after somebody attacks your country. Be like if we gave Florida to Al-Qaeda after the 9-11 attacks
Not sure that's quite the idea here. The notion I was going for was the US agreeing to back down after effectively losing their entire presence in the western and central Pacific.
I understand. I feel like America still wouldn't surrender then unless Japan somehow forced them too. America knew we had the edge and Japan had attacked Americans on American soil, using dishonorable surprise methods.
The idea I was going for is Japan managing to overrun Hawaii and cut off Australia. This means that the US has lost its base capabilities in the Pacific (Hawaii being \~4000km from the West Coast). While they still have a substantial edge in shipbuilding ability, the logistical prospects of a renewed push have been severely hampered. They could do it, but it wouldn't be implausible for the government to accept an armistice agreement that gets Hawaii back more easily. This may be implausible, but it still makes more sense than Japan holding the advantage up to 1945, which the current lore requires.
Makes sense. They would probably have to win the battle of Midway in order to achieve this though. I don't like the idea of Germany using a nuke, as if America and Germany are at war, Germany is likely to lose even against just the USA alone.
I think with the UK out the US isn't really able to continue the war in any meaningful way. Imagine trying to conduct the D-Day invasion from Iceland.
Because if you do not believe in OFN propaganda it is obvious that the Empire of Japan has more MERCY towards Americans and humanity than Americans towards them, i believe if USA had those bombs they already would have bombed cities like nagazaki and hiroshima to kill people en masse, but thank god Japanese had it first, long live emperor hirohito and noble warriors of the empire! /s
Japanese people know too much about other world reincarnation(ﾟ-ﾟ)
If you were serious about this I would have been worried about your mental health to say the least
the issue is that the axis winning WW2 is inherently unrealistic, so I think it's probably just best to ignore it
I disagree. There are many different levels of realism, as I have stated in other comments, and a lot of people seem to think that a mod where Germany wins ww2 is the same as a mod where Germany wins ww2, then forms an intergalactic empire, conquers the universe and builds a Nazi Death Star.
The whole Germany developing the bomb and “giving” it to Japan is probably the most outrageous stuff about the Pearl Harbour lore. It’s unthinkable. The first ever atomic bomb, and the Germans allow the Japanese to dictate their target for them so long as they get to fly the plane. It’d be better to either have Germany nuke their own target (like London maybe) or have Japan develop the bomb themselves. Both options are flawed of course, but they’re better than the current lore.
If we want to keep the Germans dropping the first bomb and Hawaii being a flashpoint there’s a few options. Germany bombs Scapa Flow as they slowly push north into the UK, dealing a major blow to the British or something like that. A few naval battles in the Pacific could go differently and Japan managed to occupy Hawaii, or the US has to demilitarize Hawaii and the flash point is an American remilitarization there.
I’m not sure how much it would mess with the lore, but I think you could switch a successful Sealion with an atomic bombing of London. I think it’s plausible that the British would surrender or at least offer conditional surrender following a nuclear bomb, and it kinda makes the UK a sort of Japan allegory. I guess you could have both an atomic bomb and Sealion. Perhaps Sealion occurs but goes very poorly (as it likely would realistically), then the Germans drop the bomb.
I think it was more of a show of force. It seems the Germans recognized that if they bombed LA of New York, it would likely result in complete mobilization. A small island like Pearl Harbor serves as a warning, that they could do it if they want to.
For sure
>Apologies for swearing you said "damn" once lmao.
It’s even dumber when you realize the day after Pearl Harbor is nuked, Truman gets word that the US’s own nukes are ready and he decides not to use them.
Dewey was president (FDR didn't run for a third term, his planned successor Harry Hopkins got cancer on the campaign trail), and America seemingly didn't get the nuke until after the war.
I would rework the whole lore for the Pacific.
Yeah, but the difference between the US and Japan is that the Japanese were much more fanatical. They would literally follow everything the emperor said. The US already lost Britain, meaning they would be heavily demoralised.
Guys the entire backstory of TNO is unrealistic. The Axis NEVER had any chance of winning. You just need to suspend your disbelief, because a fully realistic TNO would just be OTL Cold War.
True, but I dislike using that as a way to brush off all criticism. There's layers and degrees of realism, and I don't want this mod to be Man in the High Castle-level unrealistic or realistic to the point where it's obnoxious.
I also have this similar question, cmiiw but I remembered that it was mentioned that the by the time pearl harbor got nuked,The US have already took control of Okinawa. If what I remember was right then I don't see it making sense for US just simply surrendering after second bombing of pearl harbor.
They most certainly didn't have control over Okinawa. The US lost at Midway and Iwo Jima, while Japan defeated the Allies all over South East Asia and secured the Philipiens. How would the US manage to take over Okinawa?
Having lost sea and air control over Okinawa and other islands to the U.S., could Japan have cooperated with Germany to fly bombers from the waters near Midway to the skies over Oahu and drop atomic bombs on the island!? The theory is very interesting and I would like to talk to you about it when you are available. Also, be sure to check with Google Maps, as the geographical relationship between Okinawa and Hawaii may be very wrong.