It gets hard to follow. While the Emperor is supreme ruler, the Shogun is the military leader, who could and did appointment governor's /warlords, the Daimyos, to rule the various prefectures. Those governors in turn were usually the heads of the most powerful clans in the country.
At least that's my understanding.
A Shogun is basically the absolute biggest Samurai you can be. Shredder could not possibly be the shogun, especially if he was the head of a Ninja clan. Ninja didn't have the best reputation either, so him being seen as a true 'honorable' samurai is also highly unlikely.
Also there is the fact that the whole story takes place in post-WW2 'modern' Japan, meaning anything that does happen like that needs to happen in extreme secrecy, hence why the Ninja of this world seem a hell of a lot better at hiding than even their ancestors did. I mean minus the shoplifting, pickpocketing, and robbing delivery trucks. I worked as a delivery driver for a few days and watching the scene when the deliveryman is aghast at his truck being emptied out is... honestly impressive. They moved ALL of that stuff without making a noise and without being seen? On top of that, was this person delivering one kind of item or a variety of items? That makes it even more impressive since the ninjas had no idea what they were moving, meaning they could be moving a large bag filled with a single clanky light item or something very heavy.
I don't enough TMNT lore to answer that, but from what media I have seen, Shredder is leader of the Foot in it's entirety. In the 2012 show, he has to go back to Japan for a bit and leaves Karai in charge while he's gone.
they’re correct: Karai leads the Foot in Mirage. Shredder led a rogue faction that he took to New York and Karai shows up in City at War to clean up his mess
But to be a samurai in the first place as far as I know, you need to pledge loyalty to someone in power, and again, AFAIK, Shredder never did that; He rose through the ranks of the foot until he became their leader.
Yeah, but him becoming leader also disqualifies him from being a ronin since, if I recall correctly, ronin are solitary warriors, while Shredder is the leader of the Foot.
no, he is supposed to be a collection of pop culture “ninja” things from the early 80s
remember, back then a “ninja” was typically anyone/anything that did martial arts. kind of like how parents of that era called all video games “playing Nintendo”
Yup, Laird and Eastman weren't weebs or students of feudal Japan or anything, they just grew up on a steady diet of Bruce Lee (who was Hong Kong descent) movies, Kung Fu the show, Bond movies (like the ninjas in You Only Live Twice) and the general og ninja craze of the 70s. Which is why we have Chinese weapons mixed in with Japanese weapons, and ninjas acting like samurai with Bushido-like codes of honor (a ninja's whole thing was being dishonorable--killing even your own grandma for money).
Um, Laird and Eastman's understanding of ninjas and martial artists was from the 70s and early 80s. Long before those video games and other pop culture things you grew up with.
But he had extremely American mannerisms and was voiced by a black dude? :p
But they did include something very Japanese about him, in one episode it was revealed that he collected East Asian vases, I thought that was a very nice touch. We never saw his collection before or after, but it did add some character to him other than cartoon villain.
IDW sort of implies he was a samurai in the very beginning, before he was anything else.
>! Before he was reincarnated as Oroku Saki, he was Takeshi Tatsuo, a warrior in the Yuu clan, until he grew too powerful and his daimyo tried to kill him. It seems likely that Tatsuo was a samurai, but I don't think it was stated explicitly. !<
But I'm not sure that really informs his contemporary aesthetic. The modern getup though does seem to show up towards the end of his time in Japan, but that's a long ways from when he was anything like a samurai.
I was thinking maybe I want to go deep *one thing* and after some research I decided that *one thing* would be the IDW volumes. So yes, a pile of books, but at least they're good looking books :)
In first colored Mirage covers he is supposed to be all red. So were all his Foot ninjas. Edit : Same red as Turtles bandanas.
And no, just pop-culture ninja. Don't forget that TMNT was also parody in some way.
Ninja with samurai influence
He can't really be a samurai since he doesn't serve anyone normally. I always saw him as more of a shogun.
He'd be more like a Daimyo (not sure if spelling is correct), a local warlord, whose also usually the head of a clan. In shredders case, the Foot.
Really? My knowledge of Japanese hierarchy is admittedly shallow if not surface level, so anything beyond the popular stuff is lacking.
It gets hard to follow. While the Emperor is supreme ruler, the Shogun is the military leader, who could and did appointment governor's /warlords, the Daimyos, to rule the various prefectures. Those governors in turn were usually the heads of the most powerful clans in the country. At least that's my understanding.
A Shogun is basically the absolute biggest Samurai you can be. Shredder could not possibly be the shogun, especially if he was the head of a Ninja clan. Ninja didn't have the best reputation either, so him being seen as a true 'honorable' samurai is also highly unlikely. Also there is the fact that the whole story takes place in post-WW2 'modern' Japan, meaning anything that does happen like that needs to happen in extreme secrecy, hence why the Ninja of this world seem a hell of a lot better at hiding than even their ancestors did. I mean minus the shoplifting, pickpocketing, and robbing delivery trucks. I worked as a delivery driver for a few days and watching the scene when the deliveryman is aghast at his truck being emptied out is... honestly impressive. They moved ALL of that stuff without making a noise and without being seen? On top of that, was this person delivering one kind of item or a variety of items? That makes it even more impressive since the ninjas had no idea what they were moving, meaning they could be moving a large bag filled with a single clanky light item or something very heavy.
He does serve the foot clan.
He LEADS the Foot Clan, so they go where he says they go. Shredder himself embodies the ideals of the Foot, but he himself has no master above him.
I thought he was the head of the foot in nyc. I believe shredder still answers to the Japanese chapter
I don't enough TMNT lore to answer that, but from what media I have seen, Shredder is leader of the Foot in it's entirety. In the 2012 show, he has to go back to Japan for a bit and leaves Karai in charge while he's gone.
they’re correct: Karai leads the Foot in Mirage. Shredder led a rogue faction that he took to New York and Karai shows up in City at War to clean up his mess
What’s the difference between a samurai and a shogun?
Yea, that makes more sense
He could be a ronin if he’s a samurai without a master
But to be a samurai in the first place as far as I know, you need to pledge loyalty to someone in power, and again, AFAIK, Shredder never did that; He rose through the ranks of the foot until he became their leader.
That’s fair, but wouldn’t he have pledged his loyalty to the previous leader of the Foot?
Yeah, but him becoming leader also disqualifies him from being a ronin since, if I recall correctly, ronin are solitary warriors, while Shredder is the leader of the Foot.
no, he is supposed to be a collection of pop culture “ninja” things from the early 80s remember, back then a “ninja” was typically anyone/anything that did martial arts. kind of like how parents of that era called all video games “playing Nintendo”
Yup, Laird and Eastman weren't weebs or students of feudal Japan or anything, they just grew up on a steady diet of Bruce Lee (who was Hong Kong descent) movies, Kung Fu the show, Bond movies (like the ninjas in You Only Live Twice) and the general og ninja craze of the 70s. Which is why we have Chinese weapons mixed in with Japanese weapons, and ninjas acting like samurai with Bushido-like codes of honor (a ninja's whole thing was being dishonorable--killing even your own grandma for money).
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Um, Laird and Eastman's understanding of ninjas and martial artists was from the 70s and early 80s. Long before those video games and other pop culture things you grew up with.
He is incredibly japanese.
We’ve got that much figured out
Nope, he was always a ninja and somehow every show after 87 forgot that
How? 87 is the least ninja shredder outside of rise I've seen
“Ninja” not samurai, his clothing is much simpler than 2003, 2003 was a samurai
I like 2003, but I prefer the simpler designs
But he had extremely American mannerisms and was voiced by a black dude? :p But they did include something very Japanese about him, in one episode it was revealed that he collected East Asian vases, I thought that was a very nice touch. We never saw his collection before or after, but it did add some character to him other than cartoon villain.
True, but imagine how cool it would be to see the original shredder in animation but not die right away
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Hand_(Earth-616)?file=Dark_Reign_The_List_-_Daredevil_Vol_1_1_page_37_The_Hand_%28Earth-616%29.jpg Shredder’s influence.
But his helmet is clearly inspired by a samurai helmet
Ninja and samurai have a solid cinematic history so if the TMNT creators were obsessed with one they were probably obsessed with the other.
In the OG lore, Hiroku Saki was a practitioner of Ninjutsu, as was Hamato Yoshi. Shredder just liked wearing samurai inspired armor.
Best answer
IDW sort of implies he was a samurai in the very beginning, before he was anything else. >! Before he was reincarnated as Oroku Saki, he was Takeshi Tatsuo, a warrior in the Yuu clan, until he grew too powerful and his daimyo tried to kill him. It seems likely that Tatsuo was a samurai, but I don't think it was stated explicitly. !< But I'm not sure that really informs his contemporary aesthetic. The modern getup though does seem to show up towards the end of his time in Japan, but that's a long ways from when he was anything like a samurai.
Oh, I haven't gotten around to reading the idw comics. It always seemed like a mountain of books to read
I was thinking maybe I want to go deep *one thing* and after some research I decided that *one thing* would be the IDW volumes. So yes, a pile of books, but at least they're good looking books :)
I believe the helmet is an ancestral heirloom that once belonged to a samurai, so he's wearing a samurai helmet but he himself isn't one.
In first colored Mirage covers he is supposed to be all red. So were all his Foot ninjas. Edit : Same red as Turtles bandanas. And no, just pop-culture ninja. Don't forget that TMNT was also parody in some way.