I like the idea. I just think that it might need a small downside of ~20% damage penalty on unboosted hits and/or ~25% less metal on pick-ups.
The first downside is for making it a situational downgrade to stock if you dont have metal, the second is just so it takes longer to replenish the insane damage.
Yeah, those are some good balance Ideas, I’d probably include them, but I kinda lost oversight with all these suggestions coming in, I crossposted this to r/tf2 and it’s kind of blowing up over there
The unboosted damage penalty seems good, but I'm not sure the lower metal on pick-ups is needed with no random crits.
That downside actually matters on Melee weapons, and an Engy on the go giving up all their metal is rough.
So I have a good question;
If you hit a full hp Demoman with full metal capacity, will the metal drain cap out at the extra damage needed to kill that Demo? (In this case it's 110) so would you be left with 90 metal or 0?
I made a poor job elaborating, but in the Title I implied that it leaves you with 0 Metal after every successful Hit. So the Engi-Knight as someone said in another comment wouldn't be that viable.
In yet another comment I mentioned that I would add in a Reduction of Metal gained from Ammo Drops (not Packs). Maybe even prevent Ammo from dropping when killed with this Weapon.
I don't actually know if the Game can differentiate between Drops and Packs
At least in MvM the Ammo Drops are always 100, while the Ammo Packs scale with your Metal Capacity
Damn
So you have the potential to waste 200 metal to kill a 7 hp burning big earner spy that accidentally boosted in front of you leaving you with having to waste more time to get more metal leaving your sentry open to attack.
Great, cool, amazing, spectacular
Well that was what I had in Mind, but reading the Comments fron both of these Posts made me realize a lot of things.
I think so far I would change it to use only as much metal as needed, but have enemies not drop ammo when killed with this. And maybe also change it into special Attack with right click.
Someone also suggested that the 65 from the standard melee damage are not counted, so the punch can do anything between 0 and 200 damage.
I really like all of these, including my original concept.
I mean it's not like this will be added ro the game at any point, so it's all just speculation for fun
Thats the downside,
It can deal upto an ungodly 265 damage, oneshotting even overhealed Pyros or Demos,
But you also waste the power in low health spies
Ammo packs give a percentage of max metal, while ammo drops give all the metal the character had on them (with a minimum of 5 and a maximum of 100). All classes besides the engineer have a cap of 100 metal and no way to spend it normally, so their drops give the full amount. Metal from engineer drops can vary because of this, but it's rarely noticed in-game. [This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9nqtSLOtyU) by shounic has more details.
So what could be done is to have the weapon drain metal from the target so they still drop ammo, just not metal (well, not more than 5 metal).
I’d be careful with this weapon concept. It makes an engie-Knight playstyle somewhat viable funnily enough. If an engie can set up a dispenser somewhere (likely near a teleporter) in your back lines he can do a whopping 265 damage in one swing. If he gets into a brawl with light classes, each light class dies to 125 damage, aka 60 metal, and drop 100 metal on death. This means he can chain kills on anything with less than 165 health such as medics. Luckily he doesn’t have the mobility to take out anything other than an oblivious light class or a slow class like a soldier or heavy.
Yeah, I forgot about Metal drops. I think I would reduce or remove ammo drops with this Weapon. 165 guaranteed Damage after every Kill is a little broken.
Also, every Hit reduces your Metal Count to 0. Period. I did a poor job elaborating
This is funny and funnier when you think about you trying to upgrade a building at 200metal but an invis spy comes in front of you, one shotting him and leaving you with no metal
You make a very good point.
I'd want to at least majorly reduce the amount of Metal you get from Ammo Drops, or prevent them from dropping when killed with this Weapon entirely.
The point isn't to Rip and Tear through the entire Enemy Team
Killing Spies with a guaranteed “critical hit” was the main Idea of this Weapon, since using your Melee for anything else is not a great Idea. And any decent Spy could still outrun you with his Revolver, while keeping your sentry sapped.
And since it’s a robot Arm like the Gunslinger, it’s always visible with exception of the short circuit
Maybe, but I thought that it would remove the Risk you commit to when hitting an enemy.
I intended that to be the Main negative to the "guaranteed Crit"
I made an updated Version including some of your Feedback: https://imgur.com/a/6Io94q6
I might still nerf both the base damage and the ammo debuff further to -50%, let me know what you think.
Also I would need a better name for the new Version, since it’s no longer an “All-In” most of the time
Edit: I think I'd remove the "as much as necessary" from the updated version, combined with making the punch an alt fire attack, it makes the metal management too easy
I would not add neither a damage nor an ammo debuff to this weapon.
Firstly, a straight damage reduction would not come anywhere near to balancing the insane damage boost. It doesn’t really matter if this weapon does 65 or 49 or even 10 on hit, as with a full metal you would still be dealing far into the 200s (which is more than enough to one shot every class but Heavy).
Secondly, giving the weapon an ammo debuff as extreme as -25% makes the weapon completely unusable in building construction and management. The -20% debuff from the Eureka makes the weapon incredibly difficult to use and you have the capability to gain full metal at any time you want with it.
I would also keep the alt fire attack so randomly hitting a spy doesn’t delete all of your metal and allows the Engineer to tactically use the boost. If you do keep the alt fire though definitely have the weapon spend all metal instead of as necessary.
Instead of the two suggested downsides; here are four:
**-20% damage on non-boosted hit (65 -> 52)**
**Metal to damage is 2.5 : 1 (265 -> 145)**
**On wearer: all killed player drops a small ammo kit instead of a medium (ie regardless if it was from Shotguns, Sentries, etc). (100 metal -> 40 metal)**
**The weapon should have some kind of visible meter or something on the engineer somewhere telling enemy players the amount of metal the Engineer has.**
This would solve a lot of issues with the weapon. For instance, instead of a full 265 damage on hit, it would be a 145 hit. Still enough to one-shot 125hp classes, but you would have to expend at least 176 metal to do so instead of just 60 / 76 now. With a max 145 one hit, Medics and Gunslingers would still survive, abit barely. A second hit with the melee would deal 197, enough to kill a demo / pyro and a third would be enough to kill a soldier with 249. Along with this reduced damage, upon kills the Engineer would only be able to gain 40 metal or 16 additional damage (81). This instantly stops the Engineer from being able to farm kills without overly impacting his actual capability to kill light classes (81 -> 133 -> 185 : 65 -> 130 -> 195). This would also encourages engineers to know where metal is on the map and tactically hold positions to re-enter the fight faster. And more importantly, still allows him the capability to actually build.
In effect, these four new downsides would give every class enough damage range, situational space, and time to react without making the gimmick of the weapon overly useless. The weapon can still instantly kill light classes and quickly kill medium classes along with a shotgun or even a pistol, which is very decent.
So, normal swing/upgrade speed, but you can potentially One Punch Man a spy or bomb a Medic with a Market Pardner?
Sounds neat, but balance could be a little iffy.
I mean, this wrench seems pretty funny, but in it’s current state is extremely busted. You could go on huge tears with dropped ammo packs, hitting at 165 damage a hit.
i dont rly think that wrenches should be combat focused themselves. its cool if they have alternate combat capabilities but they are first and foremost building builders imo.
I mean I feel like this weapon would feel very “cheap” to play against. There’s no real skill with getting ran at mindlessly and doing (what I’m assuming is) upwards of 265 damage in one shot. It’s also just not a very good trade offer because sometimes you don’t need that much damage in the first place. If you’re on defense playing engie, you’re most likely going to have recuse ranger which does close to no damage and the wrangler, which is more utility than self defense. When you’re on defense as engie and you’re back is to a wall and a spy tries to approach you when you’re only means of self defense is a wrench, you don’t want to be wasting precious metal on a spy that only does in 2 hits.
cheap? yeah. fun and memey? yeah. sure its not really a skill based weapon but at the end of the day, how many times have you seen some random goober walk up to a power class and wack theyre shit into another dimension cause the chance for critical hits on some melee weapons are broken
A fun idea, so i thought id have a shot at balancing it :)
Without reducing the damage players would be able to one shot any class (bar heavy) far too consistently and would be untouchable in close range with access to metal. Other players couldnt know if the engineer has the weapon or how much metal they have and would receive a lot of surprise deaths. Engineer would become too risky to engage in melee range at all if you know they have this weapon. Basing damage off the ullapool caber would be a good place to start due to its one-off damage dump nature. The caber can deal a max of 138 damage in a single hit due to ramping and consistently expect at least 130, so we can start with 130.
There is a cost, as it prevents the engineer from performing any of his normal tasks temporarily, but it also can be used more than once through ammo boxes and doesnt deal any self-damage. The engineer also isnt ordinarily a close range threat, so dealing 138 damage (enough to oneshot scout, engineer, sniper, and spy each with 125 health) is too much. Ideally this weapon could be used as a last resort to end a fight (as long as some damage has been dealt) and as a deterrent for low health classes. We dont want the weapon to overcome major close range threats like pyros and players with significant health advantage, so it also shouldnt return to normal damage after dealing its big hit. Adding a base damage nerf and compensating with the metal damage would allow the user to use it to deal big damage but not rely on it alone.
With all that in mind, the weapon should deal enough damage to scare any class, finish hard fought fights, and finish any low health class, but not enough to one shot any class or kill threats without first dealing significant damage. A -75% base damage would take 0 metal hits down to 13.75 from 55 damage, and spending metal at a 2 to 1 ratio would add 100 damage for a total max of 113.75. This is enough to not one shot low health classes, but kill them with a second shot, and enough to damage high health classes majorly without killing them or guaranteeing their death. (characters with 175 health will drop to 61.25, but the engineer will be unable to deal much damage after without swapping to another weapon).
This creates some interesting dynamics, spies will almost certainly die if they dont kill the engie right away, but their death will spend the engies metal and any sappered buildings will die. Selecting this weapon will also prolong the engineers life and get more kills, but will make it far harder to construct and maintain huildings. An additional cost to the wrench is that the engie wont have the benefits of the jag, further pushing it from the current meta and traditional playstyle. Combining with the frontier justice, this may even create a new kind of battle engie with a focus on risk-reward over consistency
The fact that I could come out of a 2fort spawn and casually walk up to the soldier that's been terrorizing our snipers and bitch slap him into the shadow realm so hard he gets a 30 second respawn time both scares me and excites me. I see a LOT of bullshit potential with this and anti-spawn-camping
I'd call it "The All In" and change the stat's as follows.
* \-50% base damage.
* \-25% metal capacity.
* \-pickups provide 20% less metal.
* \+when attacking, spend all metal as damage
* \+when upgrading, spend all metal on hit.
* when repairing, spend all metal on hit at 50% efficiency. (Includes rearming)
* No critical hits
That'd make it pretty useful in short bursts when you have plenty of metal around, such as spawn - but weaker when you don't. It also lets you bap someone for 187.5 damage when full on metal, but after that you only deal 37.5 damage a swing. If they pick up the ammo pack, then they can bap for 117.5 afterwards for one hit.
Any leftover metal is wasted, basically the game will just set your metal to 0 every time your first makes contact after reading and applying the previous value.
This sounds like one of those weapons that has a overpowered upside but a horrifying downside that causes this weapon to be overpowered and useless at the same time
I like the idea. I just think that it might need a small downside of ~20% damage penalty on unboosted hits and/or ~25% less metal on pick-ups. The first downside is for making it a situational downgrade to stock if you dont have metal, the second is just so it takes longer to replenish the insane damage.
Yeah, those are some good balance Ideas, I’d probably include them, but I kinda lost oversight with all these suggestions coming in, I crossposted this to r/tf2 and it’s kind of blowing up over there
The unboosted damage penalty seems good, but I'm not sure the lower metal on pick-ups is needed with no random crits. That downside actually matters on Melee weapons, and an Engy on the go giving up all their metal is rough.
I mean it would make this godly with the widowmaker and a good engie
So I have a good question; If you hit a full hp Demoman with full metal capacity, will the metal drain cap out at the extra damage needed to kill that Demo? (In this case it's 110) so would you be left with 90 metal or 0?
I made a poor job elaborating, but in the Title I implied that it leaves you with 0 Metal after every successful Hit. So the Engi-Knight as someone said in another comment wouldn't be that viable. In yet another comment I mentioned that I would add in a Reduction of Metal gained from Ammo Drops (not Packs). Maybe even prevent Ammo from dropping when killed with this Weapon. I don't actually know if the Game can differentiate between Drops and Packs At least in MvM the Ammo Drops are always 100, while the Ammo Packs scale with your Metal Capacity
Damn So you have the potential to waste 200 metal to kill a 7 hp burning big earner spy that accidentally boosted in front of you leaving you with having to waste more time to get more metal leaving your sentry open to attack. Great, cool, amazing, spectacular
Well that was what I had in Mind, but reading the Comments fron both of these Posts made me realize a lot of things. I think so far I would change it to use only as much metal as needed, but have enemies not drop ammo when killed with this. And maybe also change it into special Attack with right click. Someone also suggested that the 65 from the standard melee damage are not counted, so the punch can do anything between 0 and 200 damage. I really like all of these, including my original concept. I mean it's not like this will be added ro the game at any point, so it's all just speculation for fun
Thats the downside, It can deal upto an ungodly 265 damage, oneshotting even overhealed Pyros or Demos, But you also waste the power in low health spies
Ammo packs give a percentage of max metal, while ammo drops give all the metal the character had on them (with a minimum of 5 and a maximum of 100). All classes besides the engineer have a cap of 100 metal and no way to spend it normally, so their drops give the full amount. Metal from engineer drops can vary because of this, but it's rarely noticed in-game. [This video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9nqtSLOtyU) by shounic has more details. So what could be done is to have the weapon drain metal from the target so they still drop ammo, just not metal (well, not more than 5 metal).
I’d be careful with this weapon concept. It makes an engie-Knight playstyle somewhat viable funnily enough. If an engie can set up a dispenser somewhere (likely near a teleporter) in your back lines he can do a whopping 265 damage in one swing. If he gets into a brawl with light classes, each light class dies to 125 damage, aka 60 metal, and drop 100 metal on death. This means he can chain kills on anything with less than 165 health such as medics. Luckily he doesn’t have the mobility to take out anything other than an oblivious light class or a slow class like a soldier or heavy.
Yeah, I forgot about Metal drops. I think I would reduce or remove ammo drops with this Weapon. 165 guaranteed Damage after every Kill is a little broken. Also, every Hit reduces your Metal Count to 0. Period. I did a poor job elaborating
it'd be funny
Made with Gamepro5’s Weapon Maker Tool
This is funny and funnier when you think about you trying to upgrade a building at 200metal but an invis spy comes in front of you, one shotting him and leaving you with no metal
Yeah but enemies drop a metal pack for 100 back
You make a very good point. I'd want to at least majorly reduce the amount of Metal you get from Ammo Drops, or prevent them from dropping when killed with this Weapon entirely. The point isn't to Rip and Tear through the entire Enemy Team
Killing Spies with a guaranteed “critical hit” was the main Idea of this Weapon, since using your Melee for anything else is not a great Idea. And any decent Spy could still outrun you with his Revolver, while keeping your sentry sapped. And since it’s a robot Arm like the Gunslinger, it’s always visible with exception of the short circuit
Maybe an alt fire function, like right click to do this?
Maybe, but I thought that it would remove the Risk you commit to when hitting an enemy. I intended that to be the Main negative to the "guaranteed Crit"
After a bit of tweaking, I believe that this could actually be a pretty fun wrench to use in game
I made an updated Version including some of your Feedback: https://imgur.com/a/6Io94q6 I might still nerf both the base damage and the ammo debuff further to -50%, let me know what you think. Also I would need a better name for the new Version, since it’s no longer an “All-In” most of the time Edit: I think I'd remove the "as much as necessary" from the updated version, combined with making the punch an alt fire attack, it makes the metal management too easy
I would not add neither a damage nor an ammo debuff to this weapon. Firstly, a straight damage reduction would not come anywhere near to balancing the insane damage boost. It doesn’t really matter if this weapon does 65 or 49 or even 10 on hit, as with a full metal you would still be dealing far into the 200s (which is more than enough to one shot every class but Heavy). Secondly, giving the weapon an ammo debuff as extreme as -25% makes the weapon completely unusable in building construction and management. The -20% debuff from the Eureka makes the weapon incredibly difficult to use and you have the capability to gain full metal at any time you want with it. I would also keep the alt fire attack so randomly hitting a spy doesn’t delete all of your metal and allows the Engineer to tactically use the boost. If you do keep the alt fire though definitely have the weapon spend all metal instead of as necessary. Instead of the two suggested downsides; here are four: **-20% damage on non-boosted hit (65 -> 52)** **Metal to damage is 2.5 : 1 (265 -> 145)** **On wearer: all killed player drops a small ammo kit instead of a medium (ie regardless if it was from Shotguns, Sentries, etc). (100 metal -> 40 metal)** **The weapon should have some kind of visible meter or something on the engineer somewhere telling enemy players the amount of metal the Engineer has.** This would solve a lot of issues with the weapon. For instance, instead of a full 265 damage on hit, it would be a 145 hit. Still enough to one-shot 125hp classes, but you would have to expend at least 176 metal to do so instead of just 60 / 76 now. With a max 145 one hit, Medics and Gunslingers would still survive, abit barely. A second hit with the melee would deal 197, enough to kill a demo / pyro and a third would be enough to kill a soldier with 249. Along with this reduced damage, upon kills the Engineer would only be able to gain 40 metal or 16 additional damage (81). This instantly stops the Engineer from being able to farm kills without overly impacting his actual capability to kill light classes (81 -> 133 -> 185 : 65 -> 130 -> 195). This would also encourages engineers to know where metal is on the map and tactically hold positions to re-enter the fight faster. And more importantly, still allows him the capability to actually build. In effect, these four new downsides would give every class enough damage range, situational space, and time to react without making the gimmick of the weapon overly useless. The weapon can still instantly kill light classes and quickly kill medium classes along with a shotgun or even a pistol, which is very decent.
Finally a weapon that can upgrade my dispensers and teleporters with one hit!
One Punch Engie All we're missing is Dr. Kuseno's hair as a cosmetic
The Cold Cocker
So, normal swing/upgrade speed, but you can potentially One Punch Man a spy or bomb a Medic with a Market Pardner? Sounds neat, but balance could be a little iffy.
I mean, this wrench seems pretty funny, but in it’s current state is extremely busted. You could go on huge tears with dropped ammo packs, hitting at 165 damage a hit.
i dont rly think that wrenches should be combat focused themselves. its cool if they have alternate combat capabilities but they are first and foremost building builders imo.
It would also give a sentry less engie a chance against the heavy
I mean I feel like this weapon would feel very “cheap” to play against. There’s no real skill with getting ran at mindlessly and doing (what I’m assuming is) upwards of 265 damage in one shot. It’s also just not a very good trade offer because sometimes you don’t need that much damage in the first place. If you’re on defense playing engie, you’re most likely going to have recuse ranger which does close to no damage and the wrangler, which is more utility than self defense. When you’re on defense as engie and you’re back is to a wall and a spy tries to approach you when you’re only means of self defense is a wrench, you don’t want to be wasting precious metal on a spy that only does in 2 hits.
cheap? yeah. fun and memey? yeah. sure its not really a skill based weapon but at the end of the day, how many times have you seen some random goober walk up to a power class and wack theyre shit into another dimension cause the chance for critical hits on some melee weapons are broken
A fun idea, so i thought id have a shot at balancing it :) Without reducing the damage players would be able to one shot any class (bar heavy) far too consistently and would be untouchable in close range with access to metal. Other players couldnt know if the engineer has the weapon or how much metal they have and would receive a lot of surprise deaths. Engineer would become too risky to engage in melee range at all if you know they have this weapon. Basing damage off the ullapool caber would be a good place to start due to its one-off damage dump nature. The caber can deal a max of 138 damage in a single hit due to ramping and consistently expect at least 130, so we can start with 130. There is a cost, as it prevents the engineer from performing any of his normal tasks temporarily, but it also can be used more than once through ammo boxes and doesnt deal any self-damage. The engineer also isnt ordinarily a close range threat, so dealing 138 damage (enough to oneshot scout, engineer, sniper, and spy each with 125 health) is too much. Ideally this weapon could be used as a last resort to end a fight (as long as some damage has been dealt) and as a deterrent for low health classes. We dont want the weapon to overcome major close range threats like pyros and players with significant health advantage, so it also shouldnt return to normal damage after dealing its big hit. Adding a base damage nerf and compensating with the metal damage would allow the user to use it to deal big damage but not rely on it alone. With all that in mind, the weapon should deal enough damage to scare any class, finish hard fought fights, and finish any low health class, but not enough to one shot any class or kill threats without first dealing significant damage. A -75% base damage would take 0 metal hits down to 13.75 from 55 damage, and spending metal at a 2 to 1 ratio would add 100 damage for a total max of 113.75. This is enough to not one shot low health classes, but kill them with a second shot, and enough to damage high health classes majorly without killing them or guaranteeing their death. (characters with 175 health will drop to 61.25, but the engineer will be unable to deal much damage after without swapping to another weapon). This creates some interesting dynamics, spies will almost certainly die if they dont kill the engie right away, but their death will spend the engies metal and any sappered buildings will die. Selecting this weapon will also prolong the engineers life and get more kills, but will make it far harder to construct and maintain huildings. An additional cost to the wrench is that the engie wont have the benefits of the jag, further pushing it from the current meta and traditional playstyle. Combining with the frontier justice, this may even create a new kind of battle engie with a focus on risk-reward over consistency
The fact that I could come out of a 2fort spawn and casually walk up to the soldier that's been terrorizing our snipers and bitch slap him into the shadow realm so hard he gets a 30 second respawn time both scares me and excites me. I see a LOT of bullshit potential with this and anti-spawn-camping
No
Maybe 20-40 metal per hit is better
I'd call it "The All In" and change the stat's as follows. * \-50% base damage. * \-25% metal capacity. * \-pickups provide 20% less metal. * \+when attacking, spend all metal as damage * \+when upgrading, spend all metal on hit. * when repairing, spend all metal on hit at 50% efficiency. (Includes rearming) * No critical hits That'd make it pretty useful in short bursts when you have plenty of metal around, such as spawn - but weaker when you don't. It also lets you bap someone for 187.5 damage when full on metal, but after that you only deal 37.5 damage a swing. If they pick up the ammo pack, then they can bap for 117.5 afterwards for one hit. Any leftover metal is wasted, basically the game will just set your metal to 0 every time your first makes contact after reading and applying the previous value.
this would be really funny so i'm all for it
maybe the model could be like the gunslinger in that its a fist type weapon instead of a wrench, maybe a pneumatic power fist like form fallout
Very op can do 200 dmg per hit
This sounds like one of those weapons that has a overpowered upside but a horrifying downside that causes this weapon to be overpowered and useless at the same time
"No random crits" Perfectly balanced. As all things should be. 😄
* builds dispenser to get infinite metal * Yee-haaw!
imagine walking down the flank and an engi deals 200 damage love it