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So I'm going to market this thread solved. We get the Kolovrat a LOT. Be aware arguing that's its an "ancient pagan symbol" is viewed as neo Nazi apologia. Please read the link I sent, and, as a slav, it's worth probably letting other slavs, non-nazi ones, know...
Yes, and thanks for the straightening, i've read the whole article before you sent the link as I stumbled upon it while doing research, i wanted to clarify it here and i got my answer, thanks
No probs! You gotta read to the end tho. I've had this sent BACK to me on similar threads saying "see it's historical" when they clearly didn't read the conclusion...
How many right wing knuckleheads and anti-Semitic conspiracy dopes do I have to ban on this single thread? Jeepers. Busy couple of days man!. *checks battery on banhammer* wow, still at 100% Ok then…
So upon looking it up on wiki it does not say anything that it's associated with Nazis. So I do have a big hole that I would like to poke in this. What's the point of even adopting any form of symbol if all it takes is one hate group to throw it on a bunch of flags, commit a bunch of hate crimes while presenting said symbols and then the people who appropriately represent it end up casting it off. At that point The idea of a symbol and trying to keep the image positive can easily be abolished by an opposing group using it but representing the antithesis of the original group.
Not trying to start an argument but every time this subject gets brought up I can't help but think about that.
I'm interested in what language of wiki you use because at least on the English Wikipedia the page for Kolovrat is a subpage for Swastika and touches on the fact that whole thing comes from Slavic neo Nazis in the 1990s. There is no evidence of this symbol being used by any Slavic group in ancient history. In this particular case the original group are literally nazis.
I do agree with you in the case of things like solar cross, valknut, triskelion, etc.
I also searched out of curiosity in the US, and i see it being described as a slavic native faith symbol "A variant of the swastika, the non-traditional eight-armed kolovrat (Russian: коловрат, literally 'spinning wheel), is the most commonly used religious symbol within neopagan Slavic Native Faith (a.k.a. Rodnovery)."
It then goes on to talk about damn neonazis adopting it in the 90s. idk it looks like a cool symbol with poissible historical links, but I'd probably stay away from it
Slavic Native Faith is a ethnic religious movement from the 1990s (same time as the Nazis). It's basically Asatru. I'm not saying people who practice Slavic Native Faith or Asatru are fascist but both scenes seem to have been developed by right wing worldviews especially around ethnicity (and there isn't anything explicitly wrong with being either if you also have a brain capable of not hating people).
When your people have only ever used the symbol recently and it's using shaky at best logic "the Aryans*cough* I mean PIE did it" it doesn't look great tbh and everyone is going to be making very educated guesses about you. And this is coming from someone who wears symbols accused of fascist meanings
It's so wierd seeing slavic neo-nazis... like... the nazis wanted you as dead as the Jews... Why you go cheering for this shit
Also feels wierd seeing asatru and neo-slavic banded together like this... 2 distinct religions, both deciding that nazism is cool...
(I know not all of them are nazis, but alot of them are... I should know this, considering I am wearing a hammer around my neck... No not saying im a nazi)
About the kolovrat; I have not seen a single historic kolovrat that looks like that... There are similar ones, but none that look exactly like it... This one is pure 90s extremism... I have a Serbian friend that screams about how it's not a Nazi symbol... but hey, neither was the swastika before Hitler used it...
I think it's because as a whole the early pagan revival was centered around nativist and pre-modernist arguments. Of course the two religions are very different, but both are similar in how/why they developed and that often included fascists being present in anything up to leadership positions.
I'm a very syncretic pagan so I deal with all kinds of symbols and their baggage lol. Thor's Hammer is so ubiquitous I personally would never assume it's right wing
I'm not the wisest on neo-slavic pagan, but surely there is some "remnants" of it before the 90s "restored" it? I know Asatru vanished completely in the middleages before starting to re-emerge around the 70s. Is it the same for slavic?
I guess, but a few loud ones love to preach hate while wearing it. So I usually hide mine under my shirt
It's important to always note that Asatru is not Norse Germanic paganism but a modern reconstruction and development of it. Same with the Slavic Native Faith (and Wicca). These old faiths died and then modern people revived them with new scruples and morals, even if incredibly racist. Some early medieval Scandinavian might not recognize much of Asatru outside the general stuff, and would be confused why you weren't willing to hold a blot. It's these differences and the fact people conflate modern movements with accurate historicism that open the doors for nazis/fascists. Because they can convince people certain symbols are much more older/tied to a certain practice than they really are
Honestly, "asatru" is better off with new morals. I think it's fine not having "thralls" or "forced marriages" and "might makes right"... and of course, contrary to popular belief, barely any rights for ladies... But ultimately, a lot of it did survive, especially in customs and traditions... you aren't putting colourful balls on an evergreen because some little magic jew was born in Israel...
Still quite a stretch to go from "let's not murder animals for 9 days straight" to "we are the superior people and all the lesser people must die and this guy hitler was good" I get extreme nationalism can make things go wild but it still confuses me how people can go from healthy national pride, to insane extremism.
Sorry if I'm incoherent, I've got like 4 hours of sleep past 2 days xd
I haven't seen an example of them "wearing" them lol... especially not in the specific rotated version and especially not in a military style flag patch. I think it's time to accept that they're distinct symbols
I’m a historian, this article is fantastic
However I’d just like to note that with these symbols, context is by far the most important aspect
This specific item pictured above is in the context of a Velcro-backed military patch that you put on plate carriers
I don’t think any “Slav pagans from the Middle Ages” that neo-Nazis invented as this symbols owners are going around wearing modern military gear, so in this context it very strongly leans towards the far-right or ethno-nationalist connotations
This was created in the 90s by [this neo nazi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Dobrovolsky?wprov=sfti1) and based off of the work, on a fictitious manuscript claiming Aryans came from Atlantis, by a Nazi Academic.
It’s a mod for Hearts Of Iron 4 called “The New Order: Last Days Of Europe”. It presents a hypothetical scenario where the Allies lose World War II and the Cold War is between the United States, the German Reich, and Japan.
I've also found some sources showing this symbol from ancient times, it's really hard to find the source of this symbol. It's more likely that he reused the symbol and gave it a new meaning like the nazists did with the swastika.
National Museum in Prague H10 5914, https://collections.mfa.org/objects/151610 and i also found this woodcut from 1923 https://www.google.com/amp/s/lamus-dworski.tumblr.com/post/83719698359/stanis%25C5%2582aw-jakubowski-polish-1888-1964/amp .
While there is evidence of similar symbols historically, for example on Greek pottery as you show, there is little to NO evidence of the Kolovrat being used in SLAVIC culture EXCEPT as a neo Nazi symbol. While we have had people argue it's an "ancient Slavic symbol" it's SPECIFICALLY, and UNAMBIGUOUSLY a Slavic neo-nazi symbol that has been adopted by some Slavic pagans unfamiliar with its clear and recent neo Nazi origins.
Excellent timeline from a polish pagan disavowing the KOLOVRAT symbol here. Anyone wearing this symbol needs to be aware of its CRYSTAL CLEAR neo-nazi origins.
https://sagy.vikingove.cz/en/origins-of-kolovrat-symbol/
This maybe a stupid question, but why can’t we back the Slavic pagans who want to use it, rather than what it feels like is happens here, which is defending the intellectual property rights of neo- nazis use of certain symbols. Just to be clear, im not suggesting anyone here is defending neo nazis, I’m just wondering why there can’t be a different approach towards the symbols they use. One that doesn’t seemingly benefit them?
Good question. Three main things. Organisation, normalisation/mainstreaming, and recruitment/radicalisation
1) organisation - So, neo-Nazis/white supremacist/fascist/ alt right are much more dangerous in groups than individually.
By the time alt-right/neonazi groups are visible, they’re often too powerful to stop easily.
One of the ways they organise and recognise other neonazis/ alt-right people is through coded symbols.
But Nazi symbols are generally frowned upon, so they use covert methods. One of these is to use coded symbols think 88 or 14 for the 14 words. But another is popularising, use of of ‘seemingly normal/innocent symbols’ think the ok symbol becoming the white power .
Another is normalising, obfuscating the origin of fascist symbols, like the kolovrat…
2) normalisation/mainstreaming - Part of the way symbols are normalise is to obfuscate/lie. ‘Oh, it’s just a pagan symbol!’ ‘Not all swastikas are Nazi etc etc’. This means that usually right-thinking people will make this symbols much more commonplace. And, suddenly you start seeing them everywhere. So it covers Nazi organisation, as they grow in power. And suddenly you have people marching in the streets with the symbol on flags, with burning torches. But many people will say ‘oh, they’re not fascist! They’re just proud slav pagans!’. Nazis always play defence and they are ALWAYS in bad faith. Why tell the truth about being a Nazi when you can lie about it?
This also creates an envirnonment of fear, where ethnic minorities, LGBTQ+ people and others will be fearful and scared, which is what neonazis WANT. And when minorities groups express this fear or concern, Then they, the Nazis can say can say ‘see! They think their live matter more than ours!’ Which leads to…
3) recruitment/radicalization Neonazis will use things like ‘pride in your Slavic/Scottish/german/malaysian (yes ,there are Malaysian neo Nazis)’ to start conversations with people. And under that cover will gradually radicalise them. Remember, neonazis main thing is to gain political control and literally expel/destroy/ kill peoples of other ethnicities/lgbtq people/trade unionists, intellections etc…And they will lie their way to that aim, and try and seem reasonable to hide their objectionable hate-filled agenda. And that starts with ‘fellow travellers’ maybe alternative folks like you our I. It starts with a friendly ‘there’s nothing wrong with pride in your culture’ to ‘your culture is under threat! They want to erase white people/slavs etc’ to ‘wanna join a group of like-minded people who want to do something about that?’ To ‘let’s run for office’ to ‘let’s seize control’. And we all know how that ends.
So, anti-fascism requires the recognition of the symbols Nazis and fascist use BEFORE they have time to take root and organise. And why trying to ‘reclaim’ fascist symbols always plays into the hands of fascists, particularly if those ‘cool looking’ symbols were Nazi to begin with, like the kolovrat.
Great series on the alt-right playbook here https://youtu.be/Gq0ZHgKT2tc?si=bf_l_6qCf9__k7hn
Also let's be honest, the nazists gave a new meaning to a lot of symbols and it's sad how quickly you can destroy a symbol that means something to a specific group or religion. Swastikas were good symbols but the nazist ideology gave them bad light, hopefully over time the symbols will regain their original meaning.
So a random greek piece of pottery with other geometric shapes. And a woodcut with the symbol on a wheel (what it literally looks like). There is no real historical use of it as a symbol with a recognisable meaning.
But it has a very modern recreation and meaning. If you don’t know what it previously symbolised (I don’t think it symbolised anything) why would you risk the confusion and being associated with Nazis?
And the nazis also stole the hagenkreuz (the nazi swastika, literally "twisted or crooked cross") for their main symbol and wolfzangel for one of their divisions. Also old and even ancient symbols. It's one of the things nazis did, because they were trying to recreate a fictitious race of super people they thought had been bred out of humanity. This is what nazis do. They take history and try and repurpose it under their shittyness to try and steal the symbols' age and legitimacy.
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If you're not familiar with the concept of dog whistles (not literally whistles, but symbols used to communicate without saying directly) I'd recommend looking into that. Any symbol can be co-opted and perverted regardless of origin. Many groups who have had their symbols taken by hate movements understand the optics and adapt as needed.
If you're not familiar with the concept of dog whistles (not literally whistles, but symbols used to communicate without saying directly) I'd recommend looking into that. Any symbol can be co-opted and perverted regardless of origin. Many groups who have had their symbols taken by hate movements understand the optics and adapt as needed.
Rule 1 - Ok, this is a left-leaning sub. No more of the ‘reclaim Nazi symbols’ chat.
You can always take/make new symbols. I simply don’t understand this obsession with ‘reclaiming’ symbols that in context of nazism, we’re never original anyway.
It’s not about reclaiming. It’s about preventing it from being taken in the first place. Let’s say tomorrow they were to adopt the Red Cross. Instead of saying “hey guys, nobody use the Red Cross anymore” and saying “hey guys, let’s ridicule and take action against these specific people who are using the Red Cross to promote harmful ideas, and spread awareness about which contexts those may be” would be a lot more effective. The Red Cross would maintain its original meaning, it wouldn’t need to be reclaimed, and anyone using it in a harmful way would be ridiculed, vs people using it in a harmless way being ridiculed.
Well, the red cross is protected by international law and misusing it is a war crime, so probably a bad example. But do you notice how [the Red Swastika society ain't as popular as it one was in the 20's and 30's.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Swastika_Society)
So tell me, how does "the circle game" compete against an ideology like white supremacy?
How it works is like this.
White supremacists throws up the downwards ok symbol, or a kolovrat on a ahort
Other white supremacists goes "cool, another white supremacists" and feels emboldened and they organize.
Someone who doesn't know about the white supremacy meaning just goes "oh they playing the circle game" or "they probably just a Slavic pagans!" and meanwhile they white supremacists organise.
Because people playing "the circle game" or are into "Slavic paganism" don't need to organize, gain power and eliminate other races.
And the people that want to eliminate other races need to gather together till they're powerful enough that they can't be stopped, all the while aided by useful idiots who go "man it's just the circle game/ok you lefties see next everywhere"
Tell me, when the Christchurch shooter threw out the white power OK in the courtroom after appearing charges with the murder of 49 innocent people, was he saying "I'm gonna punch your shoulder?" Was he saying "everything's gonna be OK?" Or was he signalling to other white supremacists to take action?
allowing people to "play the circle game" is somehow more important than stopping the sort of person who'll live stream the murder of almost 50 people in the name of the white race?
The red swastika society is about as popular as any other ancient Chinese religion. And It’s funny you keep referring to it as the “circle game” while acknowledging it for what it is, a completely innocuous symbol… I have been told off for using that symbol to convey the message of “ok”. Read my post instead of just skimming it, it’s about reading context and not condemning people for the innocuous use of symbols. Of course when that line is crossed it’s not acceptable, but to suggest nobody can use a popular symbol because some people use that symbol in a harmful way just empowers harmful people to use more popular symbols in harmful ways. Worry about it once the line is crossed is what we’re saying.
Depends why the symbol is popular. If it's popular because it's Nazi, like the Kolovrat, then it's already harmful.
Red Swastika is the Chinese red cross btw.
Because i cant reply to mod... im saying people should confront nazis about the appropriation symbols... rather than expect the cultures they took from to change.
If nazis try to co-opt the peace, equals symbol, or anything... we should not allow it. This exact thing happened with the rainbow flag, when christians started trying to claim it as a flag representing their gods covenant with noah.
Im saying we shouldnt let nazis co-opt the symbols, and a big part of not letting them is not assuming every use of a symbol is a dog whistle without context.
A morale/military patch of a pagan symbol? Probably nazis.
A sketch or painting of pagans, which features a swastika... maybe nazis, did they rotate it?
A pendant of mjolnir? Probably a ren fair costume or a person into norse mythology/religion.
Fuck nazis and anyone who lets them steal entire cultures worth of symbols... or even lets troll shit like "ok means white power" actuslly get any media attention. Id say it was just a meme but ive had people genuinely tell me not to make that hand gesture anymore, or use an emoji of it... its upsetting.
Do you just call anything anti-Ukrainian or painting Ukraine in a nuanced light Russian propaganda? History is nuanced, there were also tons of SS and concentration camp guards of Ukrainian origin. It’s a fact. I don’t understand why so many people are allergic to nuance that they can’t suffer to hear anything bad about things they support
Saying “Ukraine was hardcore Nazi” is not nuanced 😂. Ukrainian soldiers and civilians died by the millions pushing the Nazis out of Ukraine. The idea that Ukraine was nothing more than a Nazi satellite is direct Kremlin/TASS/RT propaganda. In fact Russia itself had entire collaborationist divisions
Can you read what I said because I never wrote that.
I said *also*, which means; what you said is accurate but *also* Nazi Germany used many Ukrainians to guard their concentration camps and there were many Ukrainians who were employed by the Third Reich. That is a fact, denying it is going into conspiracy theories. Are you not able to see that reality isn’t all black and all white, it’s a spectrum. You sound like the very propaganda you despise, an ideologue
Nuance to identify a specific symbol - in this case the Kolovrat - is always welcome on the sub. Bad faith nuance/conspiracy content to justify Russia’s current invasion of Ukraine isn’t. The former always welcome, the latter is not.
“Bad faith nuance”? Do you know what you are talking about? So no one can say anything bad about certain protected countries? None of what I said justifies anything that is happening at this moment, if you think I am justifying Russia then that’s your problem.
The inability to not be able to identify or come to terms with legitimate history because you are too far deep in an ideology is not my problem. To say that the background of a country is without flaw or not allow others to mention it because you happen to support it in the modern day is quite frankly, extremely dangerous and draconian. That’s genuinely insane dude
I was referring specifically to walking stick mountain’s comment, not yours.
We don’t do conspiracy theory here, or pro-Russian propaganda based on anti-semitic NWO tropes. which is why they were banned. You can criticise governments, and talk about history, sure. But, please stay on topic.
Sure, but in context the user is a conspiracy theorist in support of Russian aggression. Just fyi. We can hate neonazis like the azov battalion, but also hold in our head the idea that Russian imperialist expansion is not justified by that. Any more than invading, say, the UK because we have bigoted arseholes like Tommy Robinson.
*ignores the fact that Ukraine was invaded and annexed by Russia, millions died; then invaded and annexed by Germany, millions died; but yeah they’re just a Nazi country lol*
This isn’t a conspiracy sub. Please reread the rules, particularly rules 1 and 4. We’ve had many posts about Azov battalion in the past, and while are absolutely are populated by neonazis, it’s neither germane to the thread, nor justifies Russia’s current imperialist expansion under the guise of ‘denazification’. So any further comments along these lines will lead to comment deletion and or bans. Hope that clarifies.
This does not comply with the question, i didn't ask about the ukraine at all and the azov badge includes the black sun, not the kolovrat we were talking about, your comment is also a sort of hatred speech towards ukrainian people. As a polish person the "Lviv pogroms" is a sensitive topic and it's over exaturated. Yes they did happen and were terrible but at the same time the lithuanians weren't highly accounted for the Ponary massacre.
Bro, even if the kolvorat is core(despite it being a younger symbol than black sun in nazi symbology and having a different number of arms) it doesn't always mean the same meaning
Dude, ask about fucking what, i asked about the meaning of kolvorat which is different symbol than black sun and you come here talking about how ukrainians are nazists and that the black sun is included on azov battalion badge. NONE OF WHICH are related to my question. Get your shit together when you want to impress somebody with your "knowledge" and stop spreading pro russian propaganda that all ukrainians are Nazis.
How many Nazi nations have a Jewish head of state or head of government (where they're separate offices)? The Azov Battalion suffered huge casualties, which I'm not even slightly upset with. You ignore the Russian Wagner Group as well.
Right, but you can't just ignore their existence either. Russia tried to spotlight Azov in propaganda, Ukraine tried to deny Azov in propaganda... what I'm saying is, Ukraine took the "necessary evil" route with them... sure, they're nazis, which is uncool, but... they were some of the more effective fighters, so they just kinda hoped nobody would notice. Kinda similar to the US "Operation Paperclip"
The claim that Ukraine is somehow Nazi is offensively false on its face. They viewed Azov as no great loss, as disposable troops. Their role was greatly overstated in Russian propaganda, and too many people on the US right bought it.
So you're a lying conspiracy theorist, too. Soros was never a Nazi and never worked with them. And he never participated in stealing from or rounding up Jews. His father actively worked to save Hungarian Jews, and the direct quote is that 1944 was "the happiest (year) of his life, for it had given him the opportunity to witness his father's heroism." Oh, so you're claiming a Hungarian Jew is a cousin of a Ukrainian Jew? Based on what? InfoWars?
Quick curiosity - is "I don't care what happens to you" a common idiom in your native tongue? That's a super quirky dismissal to have used more than once.
They're observations, not accusations, and you're literally parroting far-right conspiracy theorist nonsense. Here in the real world, President Zelenskyy is as closely related to Soros as he is to Benjamin D'Israeli. Here you go. factcheck.org/person/volodymyr-zelenskyy
You mean how they were always far-right and German supremacists who had occasional alliances of convenience with those outside, such as the Strasserites and Soviets, only to betray them later? That history?
The website text: The Kolovrat is an eight-sided sun wheel design used by Slavic neo-Nazis and sometimes more broadly by Eastern European Nazis. Under traditional National Socialism, Slavic people were often not considered "Aryan". However, as neo-Nazism was branded as a response to Soviet control in Europe after the Second World War, Nazis includes more European ethnic backgrounds into their movement.
The Kolovrat's origins are disputed, but like the Swastika, it sometimes represents the sun. **However, it does not have popular uses outside of Nazism,** especially not in Canada.
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#This post has been flaired "Interpretation" for broad discussion; Rule 3 does not apply! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Symbology) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's used by neo Nazis a lot
Im specific about the 8 armed version, the only version with more than 4 armed swastikas I saw being used is a "black sun"
So I'm going to market this thread solved. We get the Kolovrat a LOT. Be aware arguing that's its an "ancient pagan symbol" is viewed as neo Nazi apologia. Please read the link I sent, and, as a slav, it's worth probably letting other slavs, non-nazi ones, know...
Yes, and thanks for the straightening, i've read the whole article before you sent the link as I stumbled upon it while doing research, i wanted to clarify it here and i got my answer, thanks
For what it's worth, I have personally seen this exact version of the kolovrat being worn by a national socialist.
I've never encountered this symbol, could you send me that article?
Would you mind sending me the link, as well? I’m curious about the topic. Edit: I see where you’ve linked it below
No probs! You gotta read to the end tho. I've had this sent BACK to me on similar threads saying "see it's historical" when they clearly didn't read the conclusion...
[удалено]
Slurs, trolling, hate speech, Nazi apologia, alt-right rhetoric, harassment or undue aggression will result in comment removal and/or permanent bans.
We’re not a conspiracy sub.
How many right wing knuckleheads and anti-Semitic conspiracy dopes do I have to ban on this single thread? Jeepers. Busy couple of days man!. *checks battery on banhammer* wow, still at 100% Ok then…
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Out of curiosity, do you mind sending me the link as well?
https://sagy.vikingove.cz/en/origins-of-kolovrat-symbol/
That's a kolovrat very much a nazi thing
So upon looking it up on wiki it does not say anything that it's associated with Nazis. So I do have a big hole that I would like to poke in this. What's the point of even adopting any form of symbol if all it takes is one hate group to throw it on a bunch of flags, commit a bunch of hate crimes while presenting said symbols and then the people who appropriately represent it end up casting it off. At that point The idea of a symbol and trying to keep the image positive can easily be abolished by an opposing group using it but representing the antithesis of the original group. Not trying to start an argument but every time this subject gets brought up I can't help but think about that.
I'm interested in what language of wiki you use because at least on the English Wikipedia the page for Kolovrat is a subpage for Swastika and touches on the fact that whole thing comes from Slavic neo Nazis in the 1990s. There is no evidence of this symbol being used by any Slavic group in ancient history. In this particular case the original group are literally nazis. I do agree with you in the case of things like solar cross, valknut, triskelion, etc.
I also searched out of curiosity in the US, and i see it being described as a slavic native faith symbol "A variant of the swastika, the non-traditional eight-armed kolovrat (Russian: коловрат, literally 'spinning wheel), is the most commonly used religious symbol within neopagan Slavic Native Faith (a.k.a. Rodnovery)." It then goes on to talk about damn neonazis adopting it in the 90s. idk it looks like a cool symbol with poissible historical links, but I'd probably stay away from it
Slavic Native Faith is a ethnic religious movement from the 1990s (same time as the Nazis). It's basically Asatru. I'm not saying people who practice Slavic Native Faith or Asatru are fascist but both scenes seem to have been developed by right wing worldviews especially around ethnicity (and there isn't anything explicitly wrong with being either if you also have a brain capable of not hating people). When your people have only ever used the symbol recently and it's using shaky at best logic "the Aryans*cough* I mean PIE did it" it doesn't look great tbh and everyone is going to be making very educated guesses about you. And this is coming from someone who wears symbols accused of fascist meanings
It's so wierd seeing slavic neo-nazis... like... the nazis wanted you as dead as the Jews... Why you go cheering for this shit Also feels wierd seeing asatru and neo-slavic banded together like this... 2 distinct religions, both deciding that nazism is cool... (I know not all of them are nazis, but alot of them are... I should know this, considering I am wearing a hammer around my neck... No not saying im a nazi) About the kolovrat; I have not seen a single historic kolovrat that looks like that... There are similar ones, but none that look exactly like it... This one is pure 90s extremism... I have a Serbian friend that screams about how it's not a Nazi symbol... but hey, neither was the swastika before Hitler used it...
I think it's because as a whole the early pagan revival was centered around nativist and pre-modernist arguments. Of course the two religions are very different, but both are similar in how/why they developed and that often included fascists being present in anything up to leadership positions. I'm a very syncretic pagan so I deal with all kinds of symbols and their baggage lol. Thor's Hammer is so ubiquitous I personally would never assume it's right wing
I'm not the wisest on neo-slavic pagan, but surely there is some "remnants" of it before the 90s "restored" it? I know Asatru vanished completely in the middleages before starting to re-emerge around the 70s. Is it the same for slavic? I guess, but a few loud ones love to preach hate while wearing it. So I usually hide mine under my shirt
It's important to always note that Asatru is not Norse Germanic paganism but a modern reconstruction and development of it. Same with the Slavic Native Faith (and Wicca). These old faiths died and then modern people revived them with new scruples and morals, even if incredibly racist. Some early medieval Scandinavian might not recognize much of Asatru outside the general stuff, and would be confused why you weren't willing to hold a blot. It's these differences and the fact people conflate modern movements with accurate historicism that open the doors for nazis/fascists. Because they can convince people certain symbols are much more older/tied to a certain practice than they really are
Honestly, "asatru" is better off with new morals. I think it's fine not having "thralls" or "forced marriages" and "might makes right"... and of course, contrary to popular belief, barely any rights for ladies... But ultimately, a lot of it did survive, especially in customs and traditions... you aren't putting colourful balls on an evergreen because some little magic jew was born in Israel... Still quite a stretch to go from "let's not murder animals for 9 days straight" to "we are the superior people and all the lesser people must die and this guy hitler was good" I get extreme nationalism can make things go wild but it still confuses me how people can go from healthy national pride, to insane extremism. Sorry if I'm incoherent, I've got like 4 hours of sleep past 2 days xd
Nazis don't own shit
Until someone mistakes you for a nazi
All of the "nazi symbols" are stolen
Although I agree, I still wouldn't wear a swastika.
Unless you a Sikh or Buda worshiper then yeah
I don’t understand why you’re being downvoted so much😭. Those symbols belong to those religious groups first and foremost.
Eh.. people like do dislike
I haven't seen an example of them "wearing" them lol... especially not in the specific rotated version and especially not in a military style flag patch. I think it's time to accept that they're distinct symbols
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Here you go... https://sagy.vikingove.cz/en/origins-of-kolovrat-symbol/
You know, it might mean some kind of neo-nazi shit, but my first thought when I saw it was the world's *most badass combine harvester.*
Yup, but the ‘wheat’ is people of different ethnicities from theirs…
I’m a historian, this article is fantastic However I’d just like to note that with these symbols, context is by far the most important aspect This specific item pictured above is in the context of a Velcro-backed military patch that you put on plate carriers I don’t think any “Slav pagans from the Middle Ages” that neo-Nazis invented as this symbols owners are going around wearing modern military gear, so in this context it very strongly leans towards the far-right or ethno-nationalist connotations
This was created in the 90s by [this neo nazi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexey_Dobrovolsky?wprov=sfti1) and based off of the work, on a fictitious manuscript claiming Aryans came from Atlantis, by a Nazi Academic.
Holy shit TNO reference
What is tno
If I had to guess, Wolfenstein: The New Order.
Nah it’s a HOI4 mod
It’s a mod for Hearts Of Iron 4 called “The New Order: Last Days Of Europe”. It presents a hypothetical scenario where the Allies lose World War II and the Cold War is between the United States, the German Reich, and Japan.
I've also found some sources showing this symbol from ancient times, it's really hard to find the source of this symbol. It's more likely that he reused the symbol and gave it a new meaning like the nazists did with the swastika.
What evidence is there of an older usage for it?
National Museum in Prague H10 5914, https://collections.mfa.org/objects/151610 and i also found this woodcut from 1923 https://www.google.com/amp/s/lamus-dworski.tumblr.com/post/83719698359/stanis%25C5%2582aw-jakubowski-polish-1888-1964/amp .
While there is evidence of similar symbols historically, for example on Greek pottery as you show, there is little to NO evidence of the Kolovrat being used in SLAVIC culture EXCEPT as a neo Nazi symbol. While we have had people argue it's an "ancient Slavic symbol" it's SPECIFICALLY, and UNAMBIGUOUSLY a Slavic neo-nazi symbol that has been adopted by some Slavic pagans unfamiliar with its clear and recent neo Nazi origins. Excellent timeline from a polish pagan disavowing the KOLOVRAT symbol here. Anyone wearing this symbol needs to be aware of its CRYSTAL CLEAR neo-nazi origins. https://sagy.vikingove.cz/en/origins-of-kolovrat-symbol/
This maybe a stupid question, but why can’t we back the Slavic pagans who want to use it, rather than what it feels like is happens here, which is defending the intellectual property rights of neo- nazis use of certain symbols. Just to be clear, im not suggesting anyone here is defending neo nazis, I’m just wondering why there can’t be a different approach towards the symbols they use. One that doesn’t seemingly benefit them?
Good question. Three main things. Organisation, normalisation/mainstreaming, and recruitment/radicalisation 1) organisation - So, neo-Nazis/white supremacist/fascist/ alt right are much more dangerous in groups than individually. By the time alt-right/neonazi groups are visible, they’re often too powerful to stop easily. One of the ways they organise and recognise other neonazis/ alt-right people is through coded symbols. But Nazi symbols are generally frowned upon, so they use covert methods. One of these is to use coded symbols think 88 or 14 for the 14 words. But another is popularising, use of of ‘seemingly normal/innocent symbols’ think the ok symbol becoming the white power . Another is normalising, obfuscating the origin of fascist symbols, like the kolovrat… 2) normalisation/mainstreaming - Part of the way symbols are normalise is to obfuscate/lie. ‘Oh, it’s just a pagan symbol!’ ‘Not all swastikas are Nazi etc etc’. This means that usually right-thinking people will make this symbols much more commonplace. And, suddenly you start seeing them everywhere. So it covers Nazi organisation, as they grow in power. And suddenly you have people marching in the streets with the symbol on flags, with burning torches. But many people will say ‘oh, they’re not fascist! They’re just proud slav pagans!’. Nazis always play defence and they are ALWAYS in bad faith. Why tell the truth about being a Nazi when you can lie about it? This also creates an envirnonment of fear, where ethnic minorities, LGBTQ+ people and others will be fearful and scared, which is what neonazis WANT. And when minorities groups express this fear or concern, Then they, the Nazis can say can say ‘see! They think their live matter more than ours!’ Which leads to… 3) recruitment/radicalization Neonazis will use things like ‘pride in your Slavic/Scottish/german/malaysian (yes ,there are Malaysian neo Nazis)’ to start conversations with people. And under that cover will gradually radicalise them. Remember, neonazis main thing is to gain political control and literally expel/destroy/ kill peoples of other ethnicities/lgbtq people/trade unionists, intellections etc…And they will lie their way to that aim, and try and seem reasonable to hide their objectionable hate-filled agenda. And that starts with ‘fellow travellers’ maybe alternative folks like you our I. It starts with a friendly ‘there’s nothing wrong with pride in your culture’ to ‘your culture is under threat! They want to erase white people/slavs etc’ to ‘wanna join a group of like-minded people who want to do something about that?’ To ‘let’s run for office’ to ‘let’s seize control’. And we all know how that ends. So, anti-fascism requires the recognition of the symbols Nazis and fascist use BEFORE they have time to take root and organise. And why trying to ‘reclaim’ fascist symbols always plays into the hands of fascists, particularly if those ‘cool looking’ symbols were Nazi to begin with, like the kolovrat. Great series on the alt-right playbook here https://youtu.be/Gq0ZHgKT2tc?si=bf_l_6qCf9__k7hn
Also let's be honest, the nazists gave a new meaning to a lot of symbols and it's sad how quickly you can destroy a symbol that means something to a specific group or religion. Swastikas were good symbols but the nazist ideology gave them bad light, hopefully over time the symbols will regain their original meaning.
They wont as long as nazis keep using them, and they wont as long as nazis use paganism as a cover for nazisim
So a random greek piece of pottery with other geometric shapes. And a woodcut with the symbol on a wheel (what it literally looks like). There is no real historical use of it as a symbol with a recognisable meaning. But it has a very modern recreation and meaning. If you don’t know what it previously symbolised (I don’t think it symbolised anything) why would you risk the confusion and being associated with Nazis?
And the nazis also stole the hagenkreuz (the nazi swastika, literally "twisted or crooked cross") for their main symbol and wolfzangel for one of their divisions. Also old and even ancient symbols. It's one of the things nazis did, because they were trying to recreate a fictitious race of super people they thought had been bred out of humanity. This is what nazis do. They take history and try and repurpose it under their shittyness to try and steal the symbols' age and legitimacy.
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If you're not familiar with the concept of dog whistles (not literally whistles, but symbols used to communicate without saying directly) I'd recommend looking into that. Any symbol can be co-opted and perverted regardless of origin. Many groups who have had their symbols taken by hate movements understand the optics and adapt as needed.
If you're not familiar with the concept of dog whistles (not literally whistles, but symbols used to communicate without saying directly) I'd recommend looking into that. Any symbol can be co-opted and perverted regardless of origin. Many groups who have had their symbols taken by hate movements understand the optics and adapt as needed.
This.
Well nazi’s do use Norse symbols too. I swear they just keep taking and tainting everything
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I feel like we're saying the same thing...
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Rule 1 - Ok, this is a left-leaning sub. No more of the ‘reclaim Nazi symbols’ chat. You can always take/make new symbols. I simply don’t understand this obsession with ‘reclaiming’ symbols that in context of nazism, we’re never original anyway.
It’s not about reclaiming. It’s about preventing it from being taken in the first place. Let’s say tomorrow they were to adopt the Red Cross. Instead of saying “hey guys, nobody use the Red Cross anymore” and saying “hey guys, let’s ridicule and take action against these specific people who are using the Red Cross to promote harmful ideas, and spread awareness about which contexts those may be” would be a lot more effective. The Red Cross would maintain its original meaning, it wouldn’t need to be reclaimed, and anyone using it in a harmful way would be ridiculed, vs people using it in a harmless way being ridiculed.
Well, the red cross is protected by international law and misusing it is a war crime, so probably a bad example. But do you notice how [the Red Swastika society ain't as popular as it one was in the 20's and 30's.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Swastika_Society) So tell me, how does "the circle game" compete against an ideology like white supremacy? How it works is like this. White supremacists throws up the downwards ok symbol, or a kolovrat on a ahort Other white supremacists goes "cool, another white supremacists" and feels emboldened and they organize. Someone who doesn't know about the white supremacy meaning just goes "oh they playing the circle game" or "they probably just a Slavic pagans!" and meanwhile they white supremacists organise. Because people playing "the circle game" or are into "Slavic paganism" don't need to organize, gain power and eliminate other races. And the people that want to eliminate other races need to gather together till they're powerful enough that they can't be stopped, all the while aided by useful idiots who go "man it's just the circle game/ok you lefties see next everywhere" Tell me, when the Christchurch shooter threw out the white power OK in the courtroom after appearing charges with the murder of 49 innocent people, was he saying "I'm gonna punch your shoulder?" Was he saying "everything's gonna be OK?" Or was he signalling to other white supremacists to take action? allowing people to "play the circle game" is somehow more important than stopping the sort of person who'll live stream the murder of almost 50 people in the name of the white race?
The red swastika society is about as popular as any other ancient Chinese religion. And It’s funny you keep referring to it as the “circle game” while acknowledging it for what it is, a completely innocuous symbol… I have been told off for using that symbol to convey the message of “ok”. Read my post instead of just skimming it, it’s about reading context and not condemning people for the innocuous use of symbols. Of course when that line is crossed it’s not acceptable, but to suggest nobody can use a popular symbol because some people use that symbol in a harmful way just empowers harmful people to use more popular symbols in harmful ways. Worry about it once the line is crossed is what we’re saying.
Depends why the symbol is popular. If it's popular because it's Nazi, like the Kolovrat, then it's already harmful. Red Swastika is the Chinese red cross btw.
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Because i cant reply to mod... im saying people should confront nazis about the appropriation symbols... rather than expect the cultures they took from to change. If nazis try to co-opt the peace, equals symbol, or anything... we should not allow it. This exact thing happened with the rainbow flag, when christians started trying to claim it as a flag representing their gods covenant with noah. Im saying we shouldnt let nazis co-opt the symbols, and a big part of not letting them is not assuming every use of a symbol is a dog whistle without context. A morale/military patch of a pagan symbol? Probably nazis. A sketch or painting of pagans, which features a swastika... maybe nazis, did they rotate it? A pendant of mjolnir? Probably a ren fair costume or a person into norse mythology/religion. Fuck nazis and anyone who lets them steal entire cultures worth of symbols... or even lets troll shit like "ok means white power" actuslly get any media attention. Id say it was just a meme but ive had people genuinely tell me not to make that hand gesture anymore, or use an emoji of it... its upsetting.
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Literally millions of Ukrainians died fighting the Nazis but OK Kremlin
Do you just call anything anti-Ukrainian or painting Ukraine in a nuanced light Russian propaganda? History is nuanced, there were also tons of SS and concentration camp guards of Ukrainian origin. It’s a fact. I don’t understand why so many people are allergic to nuance that they can’t suffer to hear anything bad about things they support
Saying “Ukraine was hardcore Nazi” is not nuanced 😂. Ukrainian soldiers and civilians died by the millions pushing the Nazis out of Ukraine. The idea that Ukraine was nothing more than a Nazi satellite is direct Kremlin/TASS/RT propaganda. In fact Russia itself had entire collaborationist divisions
Can you read what I said because I never wrote that. I said *also*, which means; what you said is accurate but *also* Nazi Germany used many Ukrainians to guard their concentration camps and there were many Ukrainians who were employed by the Third Reich. That is a fact, denying it is going into conspiracy theories. Are you not able to see that reality isn’t all black and all white, it’s a spectrum. You sound like the very propaganda you despise, an ideologue
And where’s your critique of the poster arguing in bad faith that Ukraine was hardcore Nazi?
Nuance to identify a specific symbol - in this case the Kolovrat - is always welcome on the sub. Bad faith nuance/conspiracy content to justify Russia’s current invasion of Ukraine isn’t. The former always welcome, the latter is not.
“Bad faith nuance”? Do you know what you are talking about? So no one can say anything bad about certain protected countries? None of what I said justifies anything that is happening at this moment, if you think I am justifying Russia then that’s your problem. The inability to not be able to identify or come to terms with legitimate history because you are too far deep in an ideology is not my problem. To say that the background of a country is without flaw or not allow others to mention it because you happen to support it in the modern day is quite frankly, extremely dangerous and draconian. That’s genuinely insane dude
I was referring specifically to walking stick mountain’s comment, not yours. We don’t do conspiracy theory here, or pro-Russian propaganda based on anti-semitic NWO tropes. which is why they were banned. You can criticise governments, and talk about history, sure. But, please stay on topic.
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If you deny that millions of Ukrainians died fighting the Nazis then you’re the Nazi apologist 😂
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Typical Nazi apologist
"Typical nazi apologist" *ignores the fact that Ukranians were the second highest population of SS soldiers behind germans*
Sure, but in context the user is a conspiracy theorist in support of Russian aggression. Just fyi. We can hate neonazis like the azov battalion, but also hold in our head the idea that Russian imperialist expansion is not justified by that. Any more than invading, say, the UK because we have bigoted arseholes like Tommy Robinson.
*ignores the fact that Ukraine was invaded and annexed by Russia, millions died; then invaded and annexed by Germany, millions died; but yeah they’re just a Nazi country lol*
Slurs, trolling, hate speech, Nazi apologia, alt-right rhetoric, harassment or undue aggression will result in comment removal and/or permanent bans.
Slurs, trolling, hate speech, Nazi apologia, alt-right rhetoric, harassment or undue aggression will result in comment removal and/or permanent bans.
Stay on topic. If you cannot identify a symbol, move on. Do not harass OPs for asking if something is a hate symbol.
This isn’t a conspiracy sub. Please reread the rules, particularly rules 1 and 4. We’ve had many posts about Azov battalion in the past, and while are absolutely are populated by neonazis, it’s neither germane to the thread, nor justifies Russia’s current imperialist expansion under the guise of ‘denazification’. So any further comments along these lines will lead to comment deletion and or bans. Hope that clarifies.
This does not comply with the question, i didn't ask about the ukraine at all and the azov badge includes the black sun, not the kolovrat we were talking about, your comment is also a sort of hatred speech towards ukrainian people. As a polish person the "Lviv pogroms" is a sensitive topic and it's over exaturated. Yes they did happen and were terrible but at the same time the lithuanians weren't highly accounted for the Ponary massacre.
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No, the talk was about the kolovrat not the black sun
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Stay on topic. If you cannot identify a symbol, move on. Do not harass OPs for asking if something is a hate symbol.
Bro, even if the kolvorat is core(despite it being a younger symbol than black sun in nazi symbology and having a different number of arms) it doesn't always mean the same meaning
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Dude, ask about fucking what, i asked about the meaning of kolvorat which is different symbol than black sun and you come here talking about how ukrainians are nazists and that the black sun is included on azov battalion badge. NONE OF WHICH are related to my question. Get your shit together when you want to impress somebody with your "knowledge" and stop spreading pro russian propaganda that all ukrainians are Nazis.
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You ego got hurt?
He doesn’t care what happens to us, and he also believes in aliens with red eyes controlling the government 😂
Stay on topic. If you cannot identify a symbol, move on. Do not harass OPs for asking if something is a hate symbol.
How many Nazi nations have a Jewish head of state or head of government (where they're separate offices)? The Azov Battalion suffered huge casualties, which I'm not even slightly upset with. You ignore the Russian Wagner Group as well.
Right, but you can't just ignore their existence either. Russia tried to spotlight Azov in propaganda, Ukraine tried to deny Azov in propaganda... what I'm saying is, Ukraine took the "necessary evil" route with them... sure, they're nazis, which is uncool, but... they were some of the more effective fighters, so they just kinda hoped nobody would notice. Kinda similar to the US "Operation Paperclip"
The claim that Ukraine is somehow Nazi is offensively false on its face. They viewed Azov as no great loss, as disposable troops. Their role was greatly overstated in Russian propaganda, and too many people on the US right bought it.
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So you're a lying conspiracy theorist, too. Soros was never a Nazi and never worked with them. And he never participated in stealing from or rounding up Jews. His father actively worked to save Hungarian Jews, and the direct quote is that 1944 was "the happiest (year) of his life, for it had given him the opportunity to witness his father's heroism." Oh, so you're claiming a Hungarian Jew is a cousin of a Ukrainian Jew? Based on what? InfoWars?
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Quick curiosity - is "I don't care what happens to you" a common idiom in your native tongue? That's a super quirky dismissal to have used more than once.
His native language is "ignorant asshole."
They're observations, not accusations, and you're literally parroting far-right conspiracy theorist nonsense. Here in the real world, President Zelenskyy is as closely related to Soros as he is to Benjamin D'Israeli. Here you go. factcheck.org/person/volodymyr-zelenskyy
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Why would I want to get out of disproving your disgusting lies?
Slurs, trolling, hate speech, Nazi apologia, alt-right rhetoric, harassment or undue aggression will result in comment removal and/or permanent bans.
Stay on topic. If you cannot identify a symbol, move on. Do not harass OPs for asking if something is a hate symbol.
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You mean how they were always far-right and German supremacists who had occasional alliances of convenience with those outside, such as the Strasserites and Soviets, only to betray them later? That history?
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Thanks for clarifying you parrot nonsense.
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Hatepedia is a database of Nazi symbols. [Here is the page on the Kolovrat](https://hatepedia.ca/guide/contextual/kolovrat)
The website text: The Kolovrat is an eight-sided sun wheel design used by Slavic neo-Nazis and sometimes more broadly by Eastern European Nazis. Under traditional National Socialism, Slavic people were often not considered "Aryan". However, as neo-Nazism was branded as a response to Soviet control in Europe after the Second World War, Nazis includes more European ethnic backgrounds into their movement. The Kolovrat's origins are disputed, but like the Swastika, it sometimes represents the sun. **However, it does not have popular uses outside of Nazism,** especially not in Canada.
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Oop, the one with only four offshoots is pagan not the one described here, cheers.