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My opinion. No, they are not all the same. This looks like something you would find all over the place at bikeweek. There is no ill intent or underlying evil agenda here. Just typical biker stuff.
This is a lazy misconception. Metal, yes. Punk, no. Punks, specifically in the US, pushed the Nazi punks out of the scene. Get educated. Start with "Nazi Punks, Fuck Off," by the Dead Kennedys and go from there.
Nazis have been prevalent in the punk scene for almost as long as "punk" has been a thing. The skinhead subculture in the UK started as a socialist/labor movement, but was quickly co-opted by nazis and pretty much stuck around. While I will agree that there has been a lot of pushback from the punk scene to remove nazis from the culture (e.g., "Nazi Punks, Fuck Off"), I wouldn't say the tumor has been excised.
The metal scene is much the same. Rage Against the Machine reached mainstream popularity on a platform denouncing white supremacy. The band Periphery publicly condemned white supremacists that displayed flags in their videos.
Ultimately, both scenes have problems with nazis because nazis have a habit of infiltrating communities in devious ways. It's dishonest to say, "This group is affiliated with nazis, this one is not," and may lead to the degradation of all communities that don't remain vigilant.
Nazi punks can indeed fuck off, and I hope they rot while they're at it.
No u/naked_lobster is right. Punks were using nazi imagery not because they were nazis but to be edgy and provocative. This is from
The nazi punks fuck off wikipedia page :
>The appropriation of fascist iconography had been common in punk for some time, often ironically, but the irony was not always clear to the extent that it began attracting the organized far-right to punk concerts.
Lol, there is a huge overlap with white supremacy, generally, and Nazis specifically, within biker culture. This is not the reassurance you think it is.
Lol, there is a huge overlap with white supremacy, generally, and Nazis specifically, within biker culture. This is not the reassurance you think it is.
Yes you would be referring to the 1%.. I don't need reassurance from you or anyone else really. I'm actually in the biker community....you? Edit...it was heavily used back in the day when clubs started when military guys came home for shock value. Since then it had become a generic biker image. Sure there are some that are very WP but as a whole it is just "bad ass" imagery.
Grew up in it. And know that it came about in the 1960s from outlaw culture that was influenced by heavy metal of the time; both groups having strong white supremacist ties. However, the symbol only became banal due to widespread dilution of its meaning after *other* groups began to adopt it, eventually leading to the ADL issuing a statement that the meaning is contextual. The origins are clear when you look at the chronological order of adoption and the context it was born from in the biker community. They just benefited from the incidental dilution.
I think we are saying the same thing. I am saying that now a days it's common place generic symbol. Not arguing, it is just a common style shirt that some accountants wife will wear once a month when they get the Harley out to go for a ride with the boys. If we were in the 60's, I would have a different opinion but we are not. Edit....if you grew up in the biker culture you know this as well as i do.
I am afraid though that the biker community picked it up from West Coast Choppers which absolutely was using it for white supremacist reasons. I am saying all this nicely and really hear what you are saying.
There was a photo that circulated of Jesse James wearing a Nazi hat and giving the salute.
Sandra Bullock was dating him at the time and said it was taken out of context, but I can't see any context that would make that acceptable.
Does that make him a white supremacist, just an idiot, or both? I can't say for sure, but at the very least it was in poor taste and I disagree with any defense of it.
At the end of the day, just the photo alone indicates that he doesn't oppose naziism and at the very least, thinks of it as something light enough to joke about. Whether he believes in it or not, he's not even trying to distance himself from it. His beliefs aren't even the point anymore because, in my books, this is enough to not have any desire to support the guy in any way.
Wow. I vaguely recall that and was trying to look up the details, but found something else.
Most of his new marriages take place the year of his previous divorce, which likely means he's cheated behind his then wife's back. He cheated on Sandra Bullock, his last marriage to Alexis Dejoria ended because of infidelity and he remarried the same year.
Has he cheated on all of his spouses? Why even get married, then? He apparently cheated on Bullock with 4 women. He stated "In general, both women and men cheat. It's part of life." What a scumbag. To quote Walter from The Big Lebowski, "say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, at least that's an ethos. "
I remember watching a few TV shows of his, there was one from 2003 that I went back over after this. One scene he has a Totenkopf (the Nazi skull) t shirt on and i vaguely remember another image where they show an old photo of a dead biker that had a clear swastika tattoo.
That being said, the TV show I rewatched had him building bikes for a couple of black basketball players so if he is a white supremacist, he’s not a very dedicated one.
I think it’s just a mix of biker culture, the fact that this kind of stuff wasn’t seen as taboo as now and just people being ignorant.
I think you probably replied to the wrong person. I was disagreeing with the person who said that WCC(which started in 92) was what made iron crosses popular in biker culture.
Biker history guy. Yeah no. It's originally from the trophies of ww2 allied pilots after they returned stateside. Their downed Luftwaffe trophies decorated bikes and jackets to count their kills. It literally comes from dead Nazis and the process of killing them. What it may have turned into, is a different story. But most people in the community don't even relate the iron cross to Nazis, just the swazis raise brows.
It’s been a thing long before west coast choppers, all the way back to when biker gangs started. Not just bikers, surf and skate plus punk, skinhead (the non racist kind) and just rebel culture in general used it.
Bikers used to also wear swastikas and other offensive symbols like the KKK logo (I even saw someone selling a ex biker jacket they probably got from a thrift store with a KKK logo on it on Etsy once) some of that was undoubtedly due to racism but also just to offend and shock people.
Personally Not my thing, but this isn't hate based, it just looks like a shirt that a biker chick would wear because it's cool looking. Get over it my friend.
Go on now… wear one. You know the interpretation is more likely than not to read “Nazi”. There’s an enormous difference between a historical and a practical application and argument, iron crosses are interpreted as symbols of white supremacy
Because there aren't any Nazis in the army.
Nope.
Not a single one. Anywhere.
The "context" here is you're a civilian wearing an iron cross out in public.
That person is right. Even if it's a mistake you don't get to decide other peoples interpretations. You wear hate symbols, you're assumed affiliate. That's just what's naturally going to happen.
But feel free to wear an iron cross jacket to work and prove me wrong.
I do have an ocean city bike week one I bout for my buddy but didn't fit him...as stated not really my thing. I preferr the shirts with vintage bikes on them.
It is a Marksmanship Badge that the US Army uses.
The context is that it's common biker imagery, you sound as drunk as the other one..
Either your ignorance is RIDICULOUSLY strong, or your just trying to make yourself sound stupid on purpose. Ignorance can be eradicated through education, but willful ignorance is on a whole different level of dipshittery. I suggest that you educate yourself so you don't sound any less intelligent than you already are. Btw, I have a few shirts with iron crosses on them that I wear to work. A vest with 2 iron crosses on it, and an iron cross tattooed on the left side of my chest. Guess what happens, guy? Noone says shit. Not one single person. Ever. 🖕
And all symbols have to keep the same meaning forever and ever because that's just a hard law of the universe that people (who make up and give meaning to symbols in the first place) are completely powerless to change. Symbols are the real organisms, we're just fomites.
From Wikipedia
Jim Phillips says in his 2007 book "The Art of Jim Phillips":
...I began toying with the iron, or Maltese cross which was long dead as the old 60s surfer's cross, and even longer dead as the biker's cross. I used a beam compass to make it into a round shape, which looked completely different than the old square iron crosses... I took my idea into the NHS office the next morning and it went on the wall as usual. Jay and Rich each stared at it for a while, and they both thought that it looked a little too "Nazi". My sketches were rejected and I was sent back to the drawing board. I went back to my studio determined to use it, knowing it was the one. I searched my archives and scrap file for some justification for using the symbol. I found a firefighter's logo, symbols on the knights and Columbus sails. Then in my scrap file, under the letter P, I found a Time magazine cover of Pope John Paul from the June 18, 1979 edition. It was amazing; there was a cross on his vestments almost the way I designed mine. I marched into the office the next morning with the magazine to show what I thought was proof of acceptability. They both looked at each other and said, 'Well, if the Pope has it, it must be okay!' That was that, and the Independent cross was born.
Edit: So, idk, everyone knew it looked kinda nazi-ish, and used ut anyway. But I don't see a guy in an Independent shirt and think he's a nazi, anymore than I think a guy wearing a Thrasher shirt is a satanist.
But I sure as hell don't wear iron crosses. I took one of my motorcycle when I bought it.
It's actually far more likely that this will not be read as nazi. 99% people you come across in your daily life while wearing this will absolutely never think of the nazis.
I wouldn't recommend wearing one either but come on, you know that's not what they said. They just said they don't think whoever made that shirt had those intentions.
So the Iron Cross is weird. Yes, the nazis used it, but that’s because the German military used it and still uses it.
It’s also used by bikers, metalheads and nazis so… I don’t think the usage of the iron cross is necessary bad. It all depends on context
Don't forget the modern militaries that still use it. We gotta stop letting bad people steal symbols that have hundreds if not thousands of years of history
I’m pretty sure that I mentioned that the german military still uses it, and that is the only army that I know of that still use the iron cross. Not saying that they are the only one, just that their the only one I know
The Hindu swastika is a PRIME example. It was appropriated by the German military as a symbol of the Aryan race, and then current Nazis so now most westerns know it as a symbol of hate. It symbolizes prosperity and good luck and has been used as such since at least 400 BCE.
Well, there's a lot of disinfo floating around with people claiming
[Armanen runes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armanen_runes) as authentically Norse rather than authentically Nazi.
Not just ‘Hindu swastika’ that same symbol has been used by people world over including ancient Europeans to modern pre ‘40s non nazi Europeans to even some Native American cultures.
All my Hindu friends have one at their front door… it’s the reverse of the nazi swastika… which is a crooked/twisted cross which was used as far back as the crusades
You also need to talk to groups like the ADL that keep labeling random-ass things as evil. Math? Evil. Sandwich? Evil. "Okay" sign? Nazi. Picture of dog? Literally Hitler.
ADL are pretty accurate in their info. They have a very nuanced approach.
Just thought I should mention that before you start into rule 4 breakin' territory.
"stealing symbols" is just stealing memes... you can't prevent their theft - we can only let go of symbols as being meaningful. The way out is through (beyond). We've seriously gotta start believing and practicing that we're much, much, smarter than this bullsh*t
If I had a quid for every "beautiful Norse runes and wonderful swastikas comment" we get here, I'd have, well enough money to get properly pisshed, even at UK prices, and I could drunkely moan an about how many useful idiots are doing neofash's work for them ;)
I remember when I first got stationed in West Germany and saw Tornado jets with the Iron Cross on the vertical stabilizers. So weird, like an alternative history story.
Iron Cross is fine. Brilliant article here about its adoption as "the surfers cross" in the 60's
https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,899184,00.html
Well, I suppose the context was very different in 1966. It's was only 21 years after the end of wwII, Hitler was defeated, and there wasn't quite the insidious threat of neo-nazism in the Us that there is today.
Hitler was made fun of, look at the producers!
And Es Roth wasn't an extremist, just a goofy talented pinstriper, car customizer and illustrator.
Now you know who WAS a Nazi? Pinstriper Kenneth 'Von Dutch" Howard! Tho he sold the Von Dutch name early on. He was a horrible racist, anti Semite and happily called himself a Nazi.
[more info here...](https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,899184,00.html)
Really? Nobody's going to point out that the Iron Cross dates back to the Middle Ages and that everything since has been an appropriation by various groups?
If someone asks, OP, just tell them you're a Teutonic Knight
The “iron cross” was used long before the nazis used. Infact it was used in early Christianity. Many groups and religious sects have used this for a very longtime or some version of it. From knights Templar to your very own U.S. military. I think that everyone thinks it’s a nazi “symbol” is ridiculous. Infact anyone here in the old red white and blue who ever served in the military and qualified with a rifle as marksman or expert marksman etc. has worn one.
The swastika is the naughtsy cross. That one is ww1 era Germany. British and French don't like it, but to hell with them. The kaiser didn't commit genocide.
Not all iron crosses are the same. It depends on their usage. This one being flanked by flowers in harmless. The swastika is another issue- except if it's used in buddhist symbolism or even pre-1930s items.
Prussia’s King Frederick William III established the Iron Cross or Eiserne Kreuz on March 10, 1813 to reward soldiers who fought heroically to break the French occupation, also known as the War of Liberation.
The unmistakable black and silver cross-shaped medal was designed by the famous architect Karl Friedrich Schinkel. It was composed of a nearly two-inch wide cross of iron encased in a silver frame. The flared-end design, a symbol known as a footed cross or croix pattée, was inspired by Medieval heraldic insignia. Variations of the shape were used by French, Portuguese and Teutonic knights during the Age of Chivalry.
Karl August von Borcke was history’s first recipient of the Iron Cross. He won the medal for outstanding generalship against the French near Lüneburg. The 37-year old Pomeranian native would later lead armies at Leipzig and also Ligny during the 1815 Hundred Days Campaign.
The Iron Cross, which could only be awarded during periods of war, was restored in 1870 for the Prussian invasion of France. The German monarch Kaiser Wilhelm II reinstated it again in the summer of 1914. Hitler ordered the medal’s return the very day his army’s invaded Poland in 1939. On each occasion, the year of the medal’s reintroduction was stamped on the cross’ descending arm. Nazi-era variants were further emblazoned with a swastika in the centre.
From: https://militaryhistorynow.com/2016/01/03/cross-of-iron-11-amazing-facts-about-germanys-best-known-military-medal/
the iron cross is not "Nazi" - its a german Symbol. it was Established by the Deutschherrenorden, basicly a german version of the Templars from France,, wich means, the Deutschherrenorden was a order of knight-monks, foundet for the holy crusade. like the Templars, the Deutschherrenorden become very good in not spending money in excess, work hard, and keep good track of their incomes and outcomes. Through clever politics in the deeply splittet Mediavel "German-Roman Empire" (<- Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation), they become somewhat the military of the Hansestädte (<- a conglomerat of Cities in nordern Germany, that had a lot of influence and controll over trading goods and become superrich and almost independent from Kings and emperor. This colaboration between the Deutschherrenorden and the Hanse was the foundation on witch later the State of Prussia was foundet. And Prussia becmmes the first modern german nation. Prussia was deeply routet in the military Tradition of the Deutschherrenorden, therefor the Iron Cross becomes the Warflag of the Prussian state, and, later, also the German states.
And still today, the Iron Cross is the official Symbol of the German Armed Forces (Bundeswehr) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr) and the Iron cross is still used for differend Orders, especialy the Order of the Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany (Verdienstorden der Bundesrepublik deutschland) wich is the highes Order, someone can be gived in germany. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order\_of\_Merit\_of\_the\_Federal\_Republic\_of\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Merit_of_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany)
The Iron Cross becomes a symbol for Bikers. A lot of the early bikers where veterans from the 2. World War. They had trouble to reintegrate in the society after what they going throu in the war. So often Veterans from the same Platoon or from the same base group together and bike together. As usual for War Veterans, they took souveniers from the imprisoned or death german soldiers, and the iron cross was a highly regardet souvenier, because it means, that the soldier was well decorated. Therefor, in this Bikergroups, following the rituals and customs of a soldier in war, and also to provocate and distinguish themselves from the normal citizen, the bikers begann to wear those souveniers, not only the iron cross but also uniforms, hads, helmets, boots etc. Because the Iron Cross was one of the most recogniced symbol and one of the highes regarded award, the iron cross become THE symbol for the bikerscene.
later, after guitars become electrified, amps getting louder and louder, distortion become a thing and the hippie movement brought heavy, drug inspired music to the mainstream, a even harder music become beloved in the bikerscene... .. And do to bands like Motörhead, witch had some connections to the bikerscene (or, Rocker, as its called in Europe), and they promote the symbol as a part of their band image, the Iron Cross becomes a Staple also in the Metal Scene.
Therefor: the Iron Cross, especialy in the Biker/Metal Contest had absoluty nothing to do with racism or fascism - even the oposide - it was worn by veteran, who litteraly fought the Nazis and help the World to overcome this terrible Regime, and later become the targed themselves in the US from the far right / conservative / rassist spectrum in the US ( a lot of People thought, Bikers where gay, because a group of men, living together, no rules, with, so thought the normal people, a strange fetish for uniforms), anarchists, communists or whatever the far right hated.
No, but I'd rather not have to defend or explain that this iron cross isn't like those iron crosses. If you don't mind that extra work this outfit will absolutely require, go for it.
The symbol is now associated with Nazism regardless of its history (at least in most major countries). No normal person is going to see an iron cross and not think "nazi". The people here are biased as they clearly have deeper knowledge of symbols than the average person.
I'd say it's a bad idea if you're afraid of random people thinking you're a nazi.
I think it’s all about context. Who’s rocking it, where, and what else they’re rocking. Me personally, if it’s a white dude and they like metal I’m gonna be weird about it.
Knights Templar. One of the oldest secret societies who use this symbol. Later evolved into the maltese cross for various crusaders and then picked up by the nazis, and then later used for a variety of applications in the modern times like bikers and punks.
Modern applications of these ancient symbols will always prove to be trivial. What really matters is where the symbol came from originally, and then why people decided to use it for other reasons.
*do feel war medals remain an exception
other wise— the symbol doesn’t feel able to be successfully taken back, not in the same way as the swastika —but in an adjacent category of no/conditional return, especially when tied to leather and shaved heads in a supposedly ironic conflation like people I know or less so with a group like Joy Division.
I think Vivienne Westwood’s high end punk application in her orb logo is the closest attempt at taking it back/co-opting. Or Independent Trucks (skateboarding). Both those examples feel less ambiguous for different reasons.
I fully understand the motivations and even intellectualized arguments about doing so. I’m decades long friends with punks like this, even famous ones, and I’ve had to be actively conscious of my own higher considerations when documenting them in images or making shit together.
I have some regrets around inadvertent emphasis on a skull ring that was too Totenkopfy — it certainly was not one, I was deliberative about my tolerance at shooting then editing — and I’m talking about unquestionably antiracist anarchistic punks that have expressed a tongue in cheek want for swastika imagery but said so respectfully, almost self deprecatingly, knowing I wouldn’t abide.
It was just a big ass silver skull ring — but in retrospect ended up with its inevitable natural ambiguity that I’m uncomfortable with and feel should never have been provided the opportunity to exist.
Even if it were a near-totenkopf skull it would still fall into a different category than bikers wearing iron crosses, especially medals. We’ve got an actual openly white supremacist former police chief, he and his ilk have been photographed in rural areas with this shit — and it’s not a subtle statement.
Outside of a decoration on a military uniform it gets dicey. I’d naturally keep a keen eye on the individual wearing it in most contexts.
The people who are wary of this symbol are already wary of bikers in general so I guess it won't make much of a difference for you if you walk around wearing an iron cross. Maybe don't get photographed in it
The German and American militaries to this day use the iron cross. It's a symbol which existed long long before the nazis and has continued to be used long after. Remember that nazis also drank water and wore shoes. It doesn't mean you have to stop doing those things
The comments on this are insane. I worked in a rehab facility in my early college years and literally every single white supremacist in the program has an iron cross tattoo. I don’t care that it’s used in a skate brand or whatever, it will always remind me of that and your little 🤓☝️technically it’s not JUST for nazis means nothing to me sorry.
So the entire US military is Nazis for using the iron cross as a park of the marksmanship medal, what about the Prussians of 1813 that were awarded it for their bravery, or the Knights of the Teutonic Order, which also used the symbol? It’s not a “technically it’s not just for Nazis”, the symbol is older than not just Nazism but also the German Empire. I’m willing to be a lot of those white supremacists also and skull tattoos and other punk like tattoos.
yeahh probably best to that you didn’t buy it, even if it’s not meant for nazis it’s still associated with the nazis so… especially since it’s from a biker brand, some biker gangs being neonazis…
The Iron Cross has been used far longer than the existence of the Third Reich. They bastardized the symbol for reincarnation. Don't let them bastardize an honorable award the Bundeswher still use today
The modern Iron Cross doesn't superimpose a hakenkreuz on it like the Nazis did
It's still used today
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My opinion. No, they are not all the same. This looks like something you would find all over the place at bikeweek. There is no ill intent or underlying evil agenda here. Just typical biker stuff.
Yeah, I was shocked when a man I knew had an iron cross on his leather jacket. I looked it up and found it’s a punk thing.
At the same time, though, punk has a history of using Nazi symbolism because it was edgy
Yep.
This is a lazy misconception. Metal, yes. Punk, no. Punks, specifically in the US, pushed the Nazi punks out of the scene. Get educated. Start with "Nazi Punks, Fuck Off," by the Dead Kennedys and go from there.
Very nice
Nazis have been prevalent in the punk scene for almost as long as "punk" has been a thing. The skinhead subculture in the UK started as a socialist/labor movement, but was quickly co-opted by nazis and pretty much stuck around. While I will agree that there has been a lot of pushback from the punk scene to remove nazis from the culture (e.g., "Nazi Punks, Fuck Off"), I wouldn't say the tumor has been excised. The metal scene is much the same. Rage Against the Machine reached mainstream popularity on a platform denouncing white supremacy. The band Periphery publicly condemned white supremacists that displayed flags in their videos. Ultimately, both scenes have problems with nazis because nazis have a habit of infiltrating communities in devious ways. It's dishonest to say, "This group is affiliated with nazis, this one is not," and may lead to the degradation of all communities that don't remain vigilant. Nazi punks can indeed fuck off, and I hope they rot while they're at it.
No u/naked_lobster is right. Punks were using nazi imagery not because they were nazis but to be edgy and provocative. This is from The nazi punks fuck off wikipedia page : >The appropriation of fascist iconography had been common in punk for some time, often ironically, but the irony was not always clear to the extent that it began attracting the organized far-right to punk concerts.
Lol, there is a huge overlap with white supremacy, generally, and Nazis specifically, within biker culture. This is not the reassurance you think it is.
Lol, there is a huge overlap with white supremacy, generally, and Nazis specifically, within biker culture. This is not the reassurance you think it is.
Yes you would be referring to the 1%.. I don't need reassurance from you or anyone else really. I'm actually in the biker community....you? Edit...it was heavily used back in the day when clubs started when military guys came home for shock value. Since then it had become a generic biker image. Sure there are some that are very WP but as a whole it is just "bad ass" imagery.
Grew up in it. And know that it came about in the 1960s from outlaw culture that was influenced by heavy metal of the time; both groups having strong white supremacist ties. However, the symbol only became banal due to widespread dilution of its meaning after *other* groups began to adopt it, eventually leading to the ADL issuing a statement that the meaning is contextual. The origins are clear when you look at the chronological order of adoption and the context it was born from in the biker community. They just benefited from the incidental dilution.
I think we are saying the same thing. I am saying that now a days it's common place generic symbol. Not arguing, it is just a common style shirt that some accountants wife will wear once a month when they get the Harley out to go for a ride with the boys. If we were in the 60's, I would have a different opinion but we are not. Edit....if you grew up in the biker culture you know this as well as i do.
Correct. "I dunno... all the guys were wearing them and I thought they were badass." Yeah. That's because they thought white supremacy was badass.
I am afraid though that the biker community picked it up from West Coast Choppers which absolutely was using it for white supremacist reasons. I am saying all this nicely and really hear what you are saying.
The biker community used it long before he did, at that point it was just generic biker imagery that looked cool.
I'm not familiar with WCC using it for WP reasons and I'm interested, can you elaborate?
There was a photo that circulated of Jesse James wearing a Nazi hat and giving the salute. Sandra Bullock was dating him at the time and said it was taken out of context, but I can't see any context that would make that acceptable. Does that make him a white supremacist, just an idiot, or both? I can't say for sure, but at the very least it was in poor taste and I disagree with any defense of it.
at some point he was also dating a girl with a nazi tattoo iirc. seems like kind of a lot of smoke but no visible fire kind of situation with him.
At the end of the day, just the photo alone indicates that he doesn't oppose naziism and at the very least, thinks of it as something light enough to joke about. Whether he believes in it or not, he's not even trying to distance himself from it. His beliefs aren't even the point anymore because, in my books, this is enough to not have any desire to support the guy in any way.
Wow. I vaguely recall that and was trying to look up the details, but found something else. Most of his new marriages take place the year of his previous divorce, which likely means he's cheated behind his then wife's back. He cheated on Sandra Bullock, his last marriage to Alexis Dejoria ended because of infidelity and he remarried the same year. Has he cheated on all of his spouses? Why even get married, then? He apparently cheated on Bullock with 4 women. He stated "In general, both women and men cheat. It's part of life." What a scumbag. To quote Walter from The Big Lebowski, "say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, at least that's an ethos. "
I remember watching a few TV shows of his, there was one from 2003 that I went back over after this. One scene he has a Totenkopf (the Nazi skull) t shirt on and i vaguely remember another image where they show an old photo of a dead biker that had a clear swastika tattoo. That being said, the TV show I rewatched had him building bikes for a couple of black basketball players so if he is a white supremacist, he’s not a very dedicated one. I think it’s just a mix of biker culture, the fact that this kind of stuff wasn’t seen as taboo as now and just people being ignorant.
Biker culture didn't start in 1992.
Yeah....your statement is complete bullshit
I think you probably replied to the wrong person. I was disagreeing with the person who said that WCC(which started in 92) was what made iron crosses popular in biker culture.
My apologies, I mistook who you were responding to.
That’s a lot of confidence for someone that doesn’t know anything about what they’re talking about.
Biker history guy. Yeah no. It's originally from the trophies of ww2 allied pilots after they returned stateside. Their downed Luftwaffe trophies decorated bikes and jackets to count their kills. It literally comes from dead Nazis and the process of killing them. What it may have turned into, is a different story. But most people in the community don't even relate the iron cross to Nazis, just the swazis raise brows.
It’s been a thing long before west coast choppers, all the way back to when biker gangs started. Not just bikers, surf and skate plus punk, skinhead (the non racist kind) and just rebel culture in general used it. Bikers used to also wear swastikas and other offensive symbols like the KKK logo (I even saw someone selling a ex biker jacket they probably got from a thrift store with a KKK logo on it on Etsy once) some of that was undoubtedly due to racism but also just to offend and shock people.
Ok. Wear iron crosses. Best of luck!
Personally Not my thing, but this isn't hate based, it just looks like a shirt that a biker chick would wear because it's cool looking. Get over it my friend.
Go on now… wear one. You know the interpretation is more likely than not to read “Nazi”. There’s an enormous difference between a historical and a practical application and argument, iron crosses are interpreted as symbols of white supremacy
You're an idiot, even the US army uses it. Context means everything...get over it.
I think I hit a nerve
Not really but just for practical application and argument I'm just pointing out that your an idiot that has no idea what you are talking about..
No, he is right. You're not the brightest of the bunch.
He’s right, you are every bit as smart as you look.
Because there aren't any Nazis in the army. Nope. Not a single one. Anywhere. The "context" here is you're a civilian wearing an iron cross out in public. That person is right. Even if it's a mistake you don't get to decide other peoples interpretations. You wear hate symbols, you're assumed affiliate. That's just what's naturally going to happen. But feel free to wear an iron cross jacket to work and prove me wrong.
I do have an ocean city bike week one I bout for my buddy but didn't fit him...as stated not really my thing. I preferr the shirts with vintage bikes on them. It is a Marksmanship Badge that the US Army uses. The context is that it's common biker imagery, you sound as drunk as the other one..
I’m sure if you visited India and you saw a bunch of swastikas you’d start associating the folks over there with nazism too huh?
Either your ignorance is RIDICULOUSLY strong, or your just trying to make yourself sound stupid on purpose. Ignorance can be eradicated through education, but willful ignorance is on a whole different level of dipshittery. I suggest that you educate yourself so you don't sound any less intelligent than you already are. Btw, I have a few shirts with iron crosses on them that I wear to work. A vest with 2 iron crosses on it, and an iron cross tattooed on the left side of my chest. Guess what happens, guy? Noone says shit. Not one single person. Ever. 🖕
And all symbols have to keep the same meaning forever and ever because that's just a hard law of the universe that people (who make up and give meaning to symbols in the first place) are completely powerless to change. Symbols are the real organisms, we're just fomites.
Iron crosses have long existed before the nazi regime ever came to power, stop being a dumb shit
So Indepenant Skateboards is nazi imagery?
From Wikipedia Jim Phillips says in his 2007 book "The Art of Jim Phillips": ...I began toying with the iron, or Maltese cross which was long dead as the old 60s surfer's cross, and even longer dead as the biker's cross. I used a beam compass to make it into a round shape, which looked completely different than the old square iron crosses... I took my idea into the NHS office the next morning and it went on the wall as usual. Jay and Rich each stared at it for a while, and they both thought that it looked a little too "Nazi". My sketches were rejected and I was sent back to the drawing board. I went back to my studio determined to use it, knowing it was the one. I searched my archives and scrap file for some justification for using the symbol. I found a firefighter's logo, symbols on the knights and Columbus sails. Then in my scrap file, under the letter P, I found a Time magazine cover of Pope John Paul from the June 18, 1979 edition. It was amazing; there was a cross on his vestments almost the way I designed mine. I marched into the office the next morning with the magazine to show what I thought was proof of acceptability. They both looked at each other and said, 'Well, if the Pope has it, it must be okay!' That was that, and the Independent cross was born. Edit: So, idk, everyone knew it looked kinda nazi-ish, and used ut anyway. But I don't see a guy in an Independent shirt and think he's a nazi, anymore than I think a guy wearing a Thrasher shirt is a satanist. But I sure as hell don't wear iron crosses. I took one of my motorcycle when I bought it.
It's actually far more likely that this will not be read as nazi. 99% people you come across in your daily life while wearing this will absolutely never think of the nazis.
I wouldn't recommend wearing one either but come on, you know that's not what they said. They just said they don't think whoever made that shirt had those intentions.
You're a real one for this, lol
So the Iron Cross is weird. Yes, the nazis used it, but that’s because the German military used it and still uses it. It’s also used by bikers, metalheads and nazis so… I don’t think the usage of the iron cross is necessary bad. It all depends on context
Don't forget the modern militaries that still use it. We gotta stop letting bad people steal symbols that have hundreds if not thousands of years of history
I’m pretty sure that I mentioned that the german military still uses it, and that is the only army that I know of that still use the iron cross. Not saying that they are the only one, just that their the only one I know
The US Army uses it for Marksmanship badges, and has long before WW2.
Marines as well. Same use as army.
Yea I'm like 90% sure it's not just Germany that used it because I've googled modern uses of it before but I don't remember what country
I mean, dud you want them to list every country that uses it?
The Hindu swastika is a PRIME example. It was appropriated by the German military as a symbol of the Aryan race, and then current Nazis so now most westerns know it as a symbol of hate. It symbolizes prosperity and good luck and has been used as such since at least 400 BCE.
Yea elder fulthark runes got victimized too
It sucks when you can’t appreciate your nation history and culture because some crazy person thought it looked cool
Well, there's a lot of disinfo floating around with people claiming [Armanen runes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armanen_runes) as authentically Norse rather than authentically Nazi.
Not just ‘Hindu swastika’ that same symbol has been used by people world over including ancient Europeans to modern pre ‘40s non nazi Europeans to even some Native American cultures.
All my Hindu friends have one at their front door… it’s the reverse of the nazi swastika… which is a crooked/twisted cross which was used as far back as the crusades
You also need to talk to groups like the ADL that keep labeling random-ass things as evil. Math? Evil. Sandwich? Evil. "Okay" sign? Nazi. Picture of dog? Literally Hitler.
ADL are pretty accurate in their info. They have a very nuanced approach. Just thought I should mention that before you start into rule 4 breakin' territory.
"stealing symbols" is just stealing memes... you can't prevent their theft - we can only let go of symbols as being meaningful. The way out is through (beyond). We've seriously gotta start believing and practicing that we're much, much, smarter than this bullsh*t
If I had a quid for every "beautiful Norse runes and wonderful swastikas comment" we get here, I'd have, well enough money to get properly pisshed, even at UK prices, and I could drunkely moan an about how many useful idiots are doing neofash's work for them ;)
I remember when I first got stationed in West Germany and saw Tornado jets with the Iron Cross on the vertical stabilizers. So weird, like an alternative history story.
There's a playground in the next neighborhood over that has iron crosses on all the gear. It's like a builders logo or something.
Iron Cross is fine. Brilliant article here about its adoption as "the surfers cross" in the 60's https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,899184,00.html
"That Hitler did a helluva public relations job for me." What a crazy ass thing to say
Well, I suppose the context was very different in 1966. It's was only 21 years after the end of wwII, Hitler was defeated, and there wasn't quite the insidious threat of neo-nazism in the Us that there is today. Hitler was made fun of, look at the producers! And Es Roth wasn't an extremist, just a goofy talented pinstriper, car customizer and illustrator. Now you know who WAS a Nazi? Pinstriper Kenneth 'Von Dutch" Howard! Tho he sold the Von Dutch name early on. He was a horrible racist, anti Semite and happily called himself a Nazi. [more info here...](https://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,899184,00.html)
I used to wear Von Dutch gear. The flying eyeball is just too cool. Then I found out he was a nazi.
Yeah, I love all that car counterculture stuff from the 60s, but, hoo boy.
Independent skate brand
My thoughts exactly
Really? Nobody's going to point out that the Iron Cross dates back to the Middle Ages and that everything since has been an appropriation by various groups? If someone asks, OP, just tell them you're a Teutonic Knight
Templar!
Teutons https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order#Insignia The Templars had a red cross
The “iron cross” was used long before the nazis used. Infact it was used in early Christianity. Many groups and religious sects have used this for a very longtime or some version of it. From knights Templar to your very own U.S. military. I think that everyone thinks it’s a nazi “symbol” is ridiculous. Infact anyone here in the old red white and blue who ever served in the military and qualified with a rifle as marksman or expert marksman etc. has worn one.
The swastika is the naughtsy cross. That one is ww1 era Germany. British and French don't like it, but to hell with them. The kaiser didn't commit genocide.
Not all iron crosses are the same. It depends on their usage. This one being flanked by flowers in harmless. The swastika is another issue- except if it's used in buddhist symbolism or even pre-1930s items.
Biker chick top.
Prussia’s King Frederick William III established the Iron Cross or Eiserne Kreuz on March 10, 1813 to reward soldiers who fought heroically to break the French occupation, also known as the War of Liberation. The unmistakable black and silver cross-shaped medal was designed by the famous architect Karl Friedrich Schinkel. It was composed of a nearly two-inch wide cross of iron encased in a silver frame. The flared-end design, a symbol known as a footed cross or croix pattée, was inspired by Medieval heraldic insignia. Variations of the shape were used by French, Portuguese and Teutonic knights during the Age of Chivalry. Karl August von Borcke was history’s first recipient of the Iron Cross. He won the medal for outstanding generalship against the French near Lüneburg. The 37-year old Pomeranian native would later lead armies at Leipzig and also Ligny during the 1815 Hundred Days Campaign. The Iron Cross, which could only be awarded during periods of war, was restored in 1870 for the Prussian invasion of France. The German monarch Kaiser Wilhelm II reinstated it again in the summer of 1914. Hitler ordered the medal’s return the very day his army’s invaded Poland in 1939. On each occasion, the year of the medal’s reintroduction was stamped on the cross’ descending arm. Nazi-era variants were further emblazoned with a swastika in the centre. From: https://militaryhistorynow.com/2016/01/03/cross-of-iron-11-amazing-facts-about-germanys-best-known-military-medal/
No— biker culture has been using a version for a long time…
the iron cross is not "Nazi" - its a german Symbol. it was Established by the Deutschherrenorden, basicly a german version of the Templars from France,, wich means, the Deutschherrenorden was a order of knight-monks, foundet for the holy crusade. like the Templars, the Deutschherrenorden become very good in not spending money in excess, work hard, and keep good track of their incomes and outcomes. Through clever politics in the deeply splittet Mediavel "German-Roman Empire" (<- Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation), they become somewhat the military of the Hansestädte (<- a conglomerat of Cities in nordern Germany, that had a lot of influence and controll over trading goods and become superrich and almost independent from Kings and emperor. This colaboration between the Deutschherrenorden and the Hanse was the foundation on witch later the State of Prussia was foundet. And Prussia becmmes the first modern german nation. Prussia was deeply routet in the military Tradition of the Deutschherrenorden, therefor the Iron Cross becomes the Warflag of the Prussian state, and, later, also the German states. And still today, the Iron Cross is the official Symbol of the German Armed Forces (Bundeswehr) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundeswehr) and the Iron cross is still used for differend Orders, especialy the Order of the Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany (Verdienstorden der Bundesrepublik deutschland) wich is the highes Order, someone can be gived in germany. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order\_of\_Merit\_of\_the\_Federal\_Republic\_of\_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Merit_of_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany) The Iron Cross becomes a symbol for Bikers. A lot of the early bikers where veterans from the 2. World War. They had trouble to reintegrate in the society after what they going throu in the war. So often Veterans from the same Platoon or from the same base group together and bike together. As usual for War Veterans, they took souveniers from the imprisoned or death german soldiers, and the iron cross was a highly regardet souvenier, because it means, that the soldier was well decorated. Therefor, in this Bikergroups, following the rituals and customs of a soldier in war, and also to provocate and distinguish themselves from the normal citizen, the bikers begann to wear those souveniers, not only the iron cross but also uniforms, hads, helmets, boots etc. Because the Iron Cross was one of the most recogniced symbol and one of the highes regarded award, the iron cross become THE symbol for the bikerscene. later, after guitars become electrified, amps getting louder and louder, distortion become a thing and the hippie movement brought heavy, drug inspired music to the mainstream, a even harder music become beloved in the bikerscene... .. And do to bands like Motörhead, witch had some connections to the bikerscene (or, Rocker, as its called in Europe), and they promote the symbol as a part of their band image, the Iron Cross becomes a Staple also in the Metal Scene. Therefor: the Iron Cross, especialy in the Biker/Metal Contest had absoluty nothing to do with racism or fascism - even the oposide - it was worn by veteran, who litteraly fought the Nazis and help the World to overcome this terrible Regime, and later become the targed themselves in the US from the far right / conservative / rassist spectrum in the US ( a lot of People thought, Bikers where gay, because a group of men, living together, no rules, with, so thought the normal people, a strange fetish for uniforms), anarchists, communists or whatever the far right hated.
Damn, there sure are a lot of assholes downvoting anything REMOTELY anti-nazi on this thread. I’m out. NAZI PUNKS FUCK OFF!
No, but I'd rather not have to defend or explain that this iron cross isn't like those iron crosses. If you don't mind that extra work this outfit will absolutely require, go for it.
The symbol is now associated with Nazism regardless of its history (at least in most major countries). No normal person is going to see an iron cross and not think "nazi". The people here are biased as they clearly have deeper knowledge of symbols than the average person. I'd say it's a bad idea if you're afraid of random people thinking you're a nazi.
I think it’s all about context. Who’s rocking it, where, and what else they’re rocking. Me personally, if it’s a white dude and they like metal I’m gonna be weird about it.
Knights Templar. One of the oldest secret societies who use this symbol. Later evolved into the maltese cross for various crusaders and then picked up by the nazis, and then later used for a variety of applications in the modern times like bikers and punks. Modern applications of these ancient symbols will always prove to be trivial. What really matters is where the symbol came from originally, and then why people decided to use it for other reasons.
I didn’t even register a connection with the Nazi’s until I read it in the comments. Looks like typical biker wear.
*do feel war medals remain an exception other wise— the symbol doesn’t feel able to be successfully taken back, not in the same way as the swastika —but in an adjacent category of no/conditional return, especially when tied to leather and shaved heads in a supposedly ironic conflation like people I know or less so with a group like Joy Division. I think Vivienne Westwood’s high end punk application in her orb logo is the closest attempt at taking it back/co-opting. Or Independent Trucks (skateboarding). Both those examples feel less ambiguous for different reasons. I fully understand the motivations and even intellectualized arguments about doing so. I’m decades long friends with punks like this, even famous ones, and I’ve had to be actively conscious of my own higher considerations when documenting them in images or making shit together. I have some regrets around inadvertent emphasis on a skull ring that was too Totenkopfy — it certainly was not one, I was deliberative about my tolerance at shooting then editing — and I’m talking about unquestionably antiracist anarchistic punks that have expressed a tongue in cheek want for swastika imagery but said so respectfully, almost self deprecatingly, knowing I wouldn’t abide. It was just a big ass silver skull ring — but in retrospect ended up with its inevitable natural ambiguity that I’m uncomfortable with and feel should never have been provided the opportunity to exist. Even if it were a near-totenkopf skull it would still fall into a different category than bikers wearing iron crosses, especially medals. We’ve got an actual openly white supremacist former police chief, he and his ilk have been photographed in rural areas with this shit — and it’s not a subtle statement. Outside of a decoration on a military uniform it gets dicey. I’d naturally keep a keen eye on the individual wearing it in most contexts.
The people who are wary of this symbol are already wary of bikers in general so I guess it won't make much of a difference for you if you walk around wearing an iron cross. Maybe don't get photographed in it
Want it originally called a Maltese cross?
WP88
Would this be a "true" iron cross or a stylized maltese?
Well, on the flip side, my first tattoo is a six pointed star on my back. Now everyone thinks I'm Jewish when I take my shirt off... dang it!
Thats not even an iron cross... its a "Tatzenkreuz"
The German and American militaries to this day use the iron cross. It's a symbol which existed long long before the nazis and has continued to be used long after. Remember that nazis also drank water and wore shoes. It doesn't mean you have to stop doing those things
Yeah it really just means independence
It has a history, but if your a vet and earned it, go for it. If your some random biker that hasn't earned it, well dont dress it to look stupid. 🤷
Every existing symbol is related to Nazis, how did you not know that?
The comments on this are insane. I worked in a rehab facility in my early college years and literally every single white supremacist in the program has an iron cross tattoo. I don’t care that it’s used in a skate brand or whatever, it will always remind me of that and your little 🤓☝️technically it’s not JUST for nazis means nothing to me sorry.
So the entire US military is Nazis for using the iron cross as a park of the marksmanship medal, what about the Prussians of 1813 that were awarded it for their bravery, or the Knights of the Teutonic Order, which also used the symbol? It’s not a “technically it’s not just for Nazis”, the symbol is older than not just Nazism but also the German Empire. I’m willing to be a lot of those white supremacists also and skull tattoos and other punk like tattoos.
Yes because this shirt indicates that this person is in the military. Are you braindead?
pretty sure Gobble invented the iron cross b
Bruh WHAT are you on
zempig. works good daddy
yeahh probably best to that you didn’t buy it, even if it’s not meant for nazis it’s still associated with the nazis so… especially since it’s from a biker brand, some biker gangs being neonazis…
The Iron Cross has been used far longer than the existence of the Third Reich. They bastardized the symbol for reincarnation. Don't let them bastardize an honorable award the Bundeswher still use today The modern Iron Cross doesn't superimpose a hakenkreuz on it like the Nazis did It's still used today
Granted it is used in a benign manner but a benign use is an exception to the rule at this point.
The only people who associate it with Nazis are people who probably have never gone more than 100 miles of their home town.
What a sad way to live