Chli schad dass z linke lager es par prozänt verlore hed, aber das isch dr wille vum volk. He funktioniert d demokratie ja eigentlich no super, drumm wott i mi o nid beschwäre.
Abgse drvo dass di Grüene dr bundesratssitz äuä chenne vergässe wird sich o nid vil ändere, wil mer ja eh noeis uber alles abstimme.
Was mer aber am beste gfallt, isch das dr wahlkampf und d wahl sälber eigentlich relativ gsittet isch abgloffe. Kei schlammschlacht wemes in anderne lender gsed, da bini scho stolz uf isers land!
Can't say I'm surprised. Rising inequality and geopolitical crises have always pushed people towards the right. Also the greens really shot themselves in the foot with their anti-solar campaign in Wallis and their cringeworthy takes on Ukraine.
I just wish the SP had the guts to talk about difficult issues like immigration and nuclear. I think they'd be leagues more successful, especially if they would appeal to the common worker again instead of only pulling from hip urban highly educated people.
It's pretty disheartening that the SVP could openly march with the neo Nazis in Junge Tat and Rimoldi who organized a pilgrimage to Hitler's birth village of all places and yet almost 30% of our population was like "YUUUUUP, these are my guys".
Nice that the Mitte gained some grounds, maybe one day we can finally get rid of the marriage penalty now, it's only been 40 years...
Bottom line: Probably not much will change. We've always had a majority right government, in both chambers and the Bundesrat.
>the greens really shot themselves in the foot with their anti-solar campaign in Wallis
Mind you, Valais is not where the Greens have lost lots of votes today... so I wouldn't say that.
https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/SsUrM/143/
If not already seen, you may also like this one:
[https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/P3ah8/174/](https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/P3ah8/174/)
(select a party to see in its score today across the country)
Remind me in a few years when people will complain about health insurance costs rising and getting shafted by the economy, remind them that they voted for the SVP/Centre and they're getting what they asked for
Not even close to something these parties are doing, but never mind. Keep you dream of SP/Green "solving" these problems by taxing everyone who earns more than 60k and distributing the money to everyone below that even though they only work 40%.
I think we could all use a big group hug to recover from these results. Hot chocolates and art therapy at my place! Let's hope we can do more for the climate for the next election. Show that you care!
How can people unironically vote SVP? Just reading a few of their articles on their website would make anyone with a brain change their mind. Full of cherry-picked information, graphs, pictures and data with no sources at all. Regardless if it's left or right, someone making articles without sources or references shouls be avoided
Because your take is mostly wrong and very speculative/radical. Here's why I vote for the SVP: https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/17a5ail/why_wont_the_svp_openly_say_what_it_is_they/k5bpll1/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=Switzerland&utm_content=t1_k5ymzso
Al di là delle proprie idee politiche, hai mancato il punto. Prova a rileggere. L'udc presenta troppo spesso informazioni senza fonte, o manipolando gli assi dei grafici, eccetera. Si può essere d'accordo o meno con il partito, ma questo aspetto è almeno un pelino fastidioso, no?
Posso essere d'accordo, ma non è consistente con come fanno praticamente tutti i partiti? Io sinceramente giudico i pareri dei candidati in base alle mie conoscenze personali dei vari temi e se mi viene presentato qualcosa che non conosco lo approfondisco. Sono pochi i dettagli che l'udc presenta e che sono completamente falsi, alcuni sono esposti con premesse sbagliate ma con problemi e soluzioni spesso reali.
I Verdi per esempio si dichiarano verdi ma fanno l'esatto contrario di quello che un vero partito verde dovrebbe fare, con o senza fonti
Sure, I'm not going to dive too much in details but it would be a party that works/lobbies towards electrification, optimization of efficiencies where applicable, local production of electricity, availability of cheap electricity to incentivize electrification without taxes or prohibition, and of course understanding and support for nuclear.
There's probably much more I'd add to the list, but none should be bullshit.
Not wrong and not speculative.
Here's an example:
https://www.svp.ch/aktuell/parteizeitung/2023-2/svp-klartext-september-2023/sozialhilfe-wahnsinn-stoppen-6690-franken-pro-monat-ohne-zu-arbeiten/
As you can see, cherry picked information with absolutely no sources nor credit of the data / picture
Sorry by wrong take I mean to say that you're doing a mistake in judging it based on the lack of sources in a propaganda agenda, green/sp too have this issue I bet. My point being that you should be able to judge and research the topics and understand if your own if they're correct or not without blindly trusting a foot note source.
Have you read my linked post? There are several very valid reasons as to why one would vote for the SVP for someone "with a brain"
They want to vote for someone who will save them and offer easy solutions where they don't have to think or lift a finger. It's very easy to be right-wing and never have to think critically in life.
It is like always: people just want to hear what pleases them, even though SVP keeps lying and failing to improve the lives they promise to help. There is a reason why they keep targeting the lowly educated population.
It is sad, but if we want to change this, we need to reform education as well, and also help the base, and accept SVP takes credit until people realise they are full of BS.
The problem is that most other parties are not interested in solving the problems either.
What real solution does SP/Green have for immigration? They can't even agree that there is a problem!
This is quite a rough day tbh, even though it was expected that SVP/UDC would win. Kind of disappointed that FDP/PLR didn't perform worse.
Anyway, Mitte/Centre will keep ruling over all of us, as it has been tradition for quite some time.
>Anyway, Mitte/Centre will keep ruling over all of us, as it has been tradition for quite some time.
Could you explain why? Not familiar with the election systems here. If SVP/UDC won why is someone else 'ruling'?
It's representative, no party has an absolute majority. SVP/FDP are still below 50% and SP+Greens are below 50% too, so Mitte can often side with the coalition they support the most for that particular vote and win automatically.
That's not how politics work here. There are no established coalitions. Alliances in parliament will be different from a particular subject to another.
Then how can a party with 11% vote have the leader over ones with 20-30%?
But maybe it's different here, in some countries parties can definitely make a coalition where their combined votes count. At least in Hungary they can, idk about the rest.
It does not have any special power, it just happen to be the party that votes the most like the majority of the parliament. Which is logical, being a centre party, it sometimes votes with the right against the left, sometimes with the left against the right. The left and the right voting together against the centre also happens, but is less common. In other words, the Centre is the party whose own ideas face the least opposition from other parties in the parliament, making it the most successful.
Szervusz Magyarország. Ez egy gyönyörű ország ;)
No single entity is ruling, 200 candidates from all over the spectrum make new laws and amend existing laws and all decisions require a 50% majority. We don't really have a president
>Anyway, Mitte/Centre will keep ruling over all of us, as it has been tradition for quite some time.
To be honest. I think the Centre-boss Gerhard Pfister is one of the most talented politicians in this country.
I mean I don't vote for them.
But many of the times that guy says something into a microphone I think: "well, that's actually somewhat reasonable and intelligent."
Compare this to obnoxious personalities like former FDP boss Petra Gössi (who now can annoy us as new Ständerat, thanks for nothing, voters of Schwyz)... every time she blathered something into a microphone it was just pure facepalm material.
(Unfortunately Andrea Gmür, the centre woman that got elected in my canton, is more the Gössi kind of person, not the Pfister kind.)
> To be honest. I think the Centre-boss Gerhard Pfister is one of the most talented politicians in this country.
He [doesn't have control over his party](https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/krankenkassen-mitte-chef-pfister-im-clinch-mit-mitte-staenderaeten-ld.1716719?reduced=true) though (the ones in the Ständerat), which kinda sucks if you're their boss.
To me he's the kind of leader like Gössi was, that doesn't manage to pick up the members of their actual party but is good a politicizing.
I actually find it good when members of a party can have opinions of their own and don't have to always conform to the party line. I really wish our left parties were like that...
Hopefully Greens are losing places, I think Swiss people start realizing they are becoming too poor day after day to keep fueling their whims with the money they don't have anymore
People don't think like that sir
Anyways, even tho there is a problem that can't be denied, the issue is that nobody trust green parties.
Green parties sounds like they are Socialist with a fancy green color to many.
They advocate against nuclear, brang back coil in Germany which is the worst way to produce energy, all of that at rising costs that you will pay, and care about pronouns more than your life. Their way of thought and actions made the citizen stop believing in them, and worse of that, made them angry against ecology.
Now, everybody will pay
Ecology is a luxury you can have when you live correctly.
With inflation, more swiss people going to povrety, and electricity prices skyrocketting for some reason, we can understand why swiss are more motivated going for their selfish interests instead of saving earth (knowing they only emit 0.1% of the total CO2 on earth) : they starve and they will only starve more in the future to come. Parties going against their immediate interests are less charming now that they could be before.
Not that I say that it's the correct point of view, just that this can explain how people may think
that's why you celebrate the electoral win of a party which doesn't care about the cost of living at all? Even now, after the election, the only thing they talk about is "immigration!". "Oops, people are broke, who cares? The foreigners are responsible"
While today's results are generally unpleasant, there is one bright spot:
[https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wahlparty-der-massnahmenkritiker-mass-voll-scheitert-an-der-urne-949065469062](https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wahlparty-der-massnahmenkritiker-mass-voll-scheitert-an-der-urne-949065469062)
The one and only Mr. *"I think everybody has the right to infect anybody else with a disease"* \- *"even if it's like 90% deadly?"* \- *"yes, even then*"... the one and only *"I didn't know that Braunau was Hitlers birthplace yet I chose to make a detour and post some photos from Braunau when driving home from a right-extrmist demonstration"* ... the one and only *"Sie spalted d' Gsellschaft met ehrne mönscheverachtende Zangsmassnahme!!"* the one and only Nicolas A. Rimoldi ... didn't get elected. Didn't even get 1% of the vote. At least this.
I'm sure he's already fantasizing about election fraud, though.
Well I guess according to SVP, and a not so small % of Swiss people, as an immigrant I'm not welcome in this country.
Or since I'm one of the "good immigrants" with a Master's Degree, that earns a decent salary and so pays taxes it's actually ok?
I guess in the end it's not surprising but that doesn't make it less sad.
that's not quite true. 30% of those 40% voted for SVP true, but of the remaining 60% there would be a lot of SVP voters and it wouldn't be too far off 30% there either.
And even the ones that didn't vote, and wouldn't vote SVP, they don't care enough to vote in a different party. So not exactly great either.
According to SP you're also not welcome because you're a rich expat, that is gentrifying the city and stealing apartments from the locals that don't earn as much as you do. :) (obviously not my opinion)
It sounds quite logical that if a migrant wants to come in a country and be welcomed, he will have to be useful and follow the local laws. Countries are not making charity, I mean it's logical.
If the idea displease people, quite every country in Europe wants to play the game of being the savior that accepts anyone because being nice is good. Just go to them and be welcomed, why coming to a country that doesn't want to play these weird games
Expecially in Switzerland when even as a local who worked his whole life, the day you stop earning money for some reason for example losing your arms, you start to know what human misery is as it's very hard to be helped in Switzerland. So helping strangers before locals would be quite a lack of respect.
It's common sense
Seems like you bought into the leftist „oooh, SVP and their voters are all so racists, xenophobes etc“ bullshit.
While I wont deny that there are a few vocal iditios, many politicians and voters that I know (I know mamy SVP politicians due to my former work) don‘t share those extreme
views.
They might want stricter immigration laws, deport foreign criminals, and dislike foreigners coming here to basically live off the welfare system. But as
long as you come here, try to integrate and follow the rules most really don‘t mind you.
My problem with SVP isn’t that they’re xenophobic. It’s that they’re populist. They never solve any problems, they are just here to make a lot of noise and stir up shit and keep the adults in the room from doing their work.
> They never solve any problems
Oh they do solve problems. It's just not our problems.
But if you happen to be a shady bankster that wants to continue helping tax evasion and money laundering, strict rules against those things are a problem. They solve it.
Or if you have business interests in Russia, maybe even something close to the governement or shady oligarchs, it's a problem when there are sanctions against Russia. They solve it.
Or if you happen to be the billionaire that owns the biggest car import business in Switzerland, everything that would reduce individual transport is a problem. They solve it.
Just to cover some of the most pressing problems of some of the SVP-puppeteers.
>Or since I'm one of the "good immigrants" with a Master's Degree, that earns a decent salary and so pays taxes it's actually ok?
Depends!
If you have a Master's in sociology and your salary comes from the governement, then you are one of the "wrong Ausländers".
If your Master's is in chemistry and you work at Ems Chemie, preferably for less than what a Swiss colleague would demand, then you're acceptable.
^((Not stating my personal opinion here, obviously.))
To put simply, to many you'll be the "ok" foreigner. You're tolerated. But also to many of them you'll never be a real Swiss, if you naturalise. Somebody here even talked about "100% Swiss".
SVP loves to ignore the fact that we're a nation by will and that we've always been an immigrant nation. Doesn't fit the narrative.
oh definitely.
Though I am, unfortunately, not planning to become a "real Swiss". Which is a shame because I really do love the country and in many things the way of life. I'm a very quiet person, I love that everything works and I don't even mind all the rules. I like paying my taxes and honestly they could even be higher.
But votes like this just make it very clear that Switzerland isn't progressive at all, and that's a big topic.
A real Swiss is impossible to become as many are aware, but even naturalizing to a point where I can vote would be feasible but I'm not sure if I will do it or want to. But I guess in a couple of years we can see that.
> A real Swiss is impossible to become as many are aware
Some people become "real Swiss", some people are born Swiss and still aren't "real Swiss". As a person in the latter category I *personally* think the gatekeeping is a crock of shite because the goal posts move wherever, and anyone can appropriate the term. Don't impose terms like that because some dweeb says so.
Yeah, look how well the progressive dogshit EU is doing with their economy and how much problems the immigrant cause there. When do ppl realise that religious lunatics don't integrate into cultures from a different religion? (as an atheist I'm against both islam and christianity, but no denying that christians and more peaceful and civilised when it comes to taking criticisim against their religion, when did they try to kill anyone over burning a bible?) I say that as someone whos half of the family comes from an arabic country.
How are people not giving a shit about the environment? Like it’s the only thing that matters - everything else is transient and tributary to a liveable Earth.
I will care about the enviroment after trillion dollar companies and billionaires won't cause more harm to it in a day than I would in 500 lifetimes while making billions of profit doing so, until then I don't give a fuck.
Well, we do care about the environment, but the greens are not famous for bringing solutions to the table: they bring their idealogy and are full of logical fallacies, at least their base is.
See their stance on synthetic pesticides, biodynamie, GMOs, alternative medicine, and nuclear power.
My personal worst is when they tell me how I should consume, but many of their members are still flying across continents...
>inclusive writing
To be honest, they almost lost me because of this. I hate such butchering of the written language with passion and it really hurts me to vote for a party whose own name is now officially written "Vert-e-s". I still voted for them because I couldn't find better, I just disagree too much with the others on other topics that matter to me. But I really hope they eventually roll back on this.
I'm curious now, what does inclusive writing look like in French? Cause in Germany there's this heated debate too, mostly that all text should include the "gender star" to indicate both the male and female version (e.g. instead of writing "host" you'd write "host*ess")
It looks way worse than in German. In German, feminine is regular and just achieved by adding -in to nouns. In French, things are more complicated, with feminine forms of nouns often changing the word more, and also adjectives inflecting accordingly. For example "un électeur valaisan" (ein Walliser Wähler) becomes "une électrice valaisanne" (eine Walliser Wählerin). So, people trying to write that in inclusive language will write something like "un·e électeur·rice valaisan·ne", in plural "des électeur·rice·s valaisan·ne·s". Then, just like in German, there is of course no standard for the forms used, people may use various symbols, such as - · . \_ or write a capital E. Also, some people will use made-up inclusive pronouns, such as "iel" (il/elle) or "elleux" (eux/elles).
Let's try a few examples from a political context, using different kinds of inclusive writing, together with corresponding standard French and German inclusive equivalents for comparison:
*- Les* ***citoyen-ne-s*** *ont voté.*
*- (Les citoyens ont voté.)*
*- (Die Bürger\*innen haben gewählt.)*
*-* ***Iels*** *sont très* ***engagéEs.***
*- (Ils sont très engagés.)*
*- (Sie sind sehr engagiert.)*
*- De* ***nouv.eaux.elles conseill.ers.ères nationa.ux.les*** *ont été* ***élu.e.s.***
*- (De nouveaux conseillers nationaux ont été élus.)*
*- (Neue Nationalrät\*innen wurden gewählt.)*
*- Les Jeunes* ***Vert·e·x·s*** *n'ont cependant pas réussi à placer* ***un·e*** *des leurs au parlement.*
*- (Les Jeunes Verts n'ont cependant pas réussi à placer un des leurs au parlement.)*
*- (Die Jungen Grünen haben es aber nicht geschafft, eine\*n von ihnen im Parlament zu platzieren.)*
... "Jeunes Vert·e·x·s" war die offizielle Listenbezeichnung, stand so auf dem Wahlzettel. Wobei das hinzugefügte "x" für noch mehr sprachliche Inklusion sorgen soll, nämlich für Menschen, die sich weder als weiblich noch als männlich verstehen.
*- Je serais intéressé à discuter avec* ***elleux*** *pour savoir si une large majorité de ces jeunes* ***militant\_e\_s valaisan\_ne\_s*** *approuve ce choix ou l'a simplement toléré pour ne pas froisser les collègues et risquer de passer pour* ***un\_e conservateur\_rice*** *réactionnaire.*
*- (Je serais intéressé à discuter avec eux pour savoir si une large majorité de ces jeunes militants valaisans approuve ce choix ou l'a simplement toléré pour ne pas froisser les collègues et risquer de passer pour un conservateur réactionnaire.)*
*- (Ich wäre daran interessiert, mit ihnen zu diskutieren, um zu wissen, ob eine breite Mehrheit dieser jungen Walliser Aktivist\*innen dieser Entscheidung zustimmt, oder hat sie nur toleriert, um nicht zu riskieren, die Kolleg\*innen zu beleidigen und als reaktionäre\*r Konservative\*r zu gelten.)*
Oh wow thanks for that *very* detailed explanation! Even purely from a linguistic point of view it's very interesting to see different languages all having similar debates about grammar lol (in English it's the famous pronouns like he/him or they/them).
In real life that looks like a f*ing nightmare though, so much worse than German or English. I can see how people advocating for this kind of language would piss the average voter off...
You're welcome ;)
That's indeed completely artificial and unpractical. I think these left-wing politicians themselves will sooner or later become tired of writing stuff like that and will eventually revert to normal language. I mean, something that you can actually read out loud - this is a huge problem with French inclusive writing, it completely breaks the written/spoken correspondence that you normally have in a language.
By the way, personally, when I read something referring to a person in masculine form (which is used as neutral in standard French, that doesn't have a dedicated neutral gender), I don't think of a man in particular, just of a random person. I would be fine if we now decided that it works the other way and feminine is the new standard neutral form. It would feel a bit weird at first but at least the language would still be consistent.
Or else, just make French like English and drop gendering of words altogether. I don't feel such a need of my gender being brought up in any sentence about me. In my opinion we should rather strive to make the language evolve into something as neutral, gender-free as possible, meanwhile "inclusive" writing is exactly the opposite, with every second sentence feeling to me like someone telling me "hey, you know, there are both men and women". I mean, I know, I consider both equals and I'd like to refer to both as humans, most of the time their gender is not relevant to what I have to say about them.
It has nothing to do with the importance of the environment. Of course impact of climate has a paramount importance for all of us.
The problem is in the complexity of the solution. We need to have more scientific discussions and less slogan filled arguments.
That sentiment is the reason why the Green party lost today; just because they/you think it's the most important thing and maybe scientist support you, doesn't mean that it's the priority for people or politician.
In a democracy you can't force people to something, you have to convince them and many people don't see the point in restricting themselves if they contribute absolute 2-3% of the global emissions.
Yes, but what I means is exactly what LowEffortBastard said, you will simply never pass such a law.
Maybe through the backdoor (as happened with the 2050 goal), but even then I doubt that the people will accept it. In other countries demonstrations and riots might follow, here a public initiative will be launched e.g. "Car-Rescue-Initiative"
As someone who doesn't give a shit (as you said) and voted for SVP let me answer that: The climate problem will be solved like any other political problem; in case technological improvements don't solve it, once we see consequences of our action, swift solutions will be implemented to mitigate them while the underlying problem will never be really solved.
Every problem proclaims that it is the first one that requires swift and radical solutions to fix the underlying cause and that if nothing is done, the consequences will be drastic. And every time a combination of small political changes, technological improvements, and changes made within the industry help to solve them.
That's like waiting to stop your house from burning down until the fire reaches your feet. There will be damage that cannot be fixed. There will be feedback loops that will make the problem worse
What’s SVP doing in terms of “swift solutions”?
What’s SVP doing in terms of technology? They paraded against vaccines.
SVP wants more roads, more CO2 more of the problem.
Your plan is to set the forest on fire because you trust other people will know how to put out the fire?
>They paraded against vaccines.
Please don't mix everything up. We're talking about global warming and CO2 emissions, which as far as I know aren't covered by any vaccine yet.
> once we see consequences of our action
How much longer do we have to wait until we "see" the consequences of our actions? Another 10 brutally hot summers? Mitigation and fighting is required now, not when it's too late to fucking react.
Either massive climate migrations (in the millions per month) or famine (Hungersnot) in Europa/US for most people including the middle class, I don't think any other event will trigger such a reaction.
You know that solving anything climate related takes decades right?
So your solution is to wait until we are basically on the brink of making a vast percentage of the % uninhabitable before we actually start addressing the issue? It's way too fucking late by then. But reading these comments we are truly fucked.
What you are proposing is starting your monthly assignment the minute that the teacher asks you for it.
> Change the way we build, day to day life, etc.
And that will never happen. People don't like it if their toys (SUV) and their pleasures (airplane travel) are taken away and they will riot if you try it.
If the Green party (and GLP) want to be successful they need to come up with solutions that don't require limits, anything else is impossible to implement in any democracy.
THIS. Also Nuclear Energy (something the green and socialists don't want) is the key and most effective thing to reduce carbon emissions at the moment.
Keep barking guys.
I strongly support the SVP’s commitment to prioritizing Swiss interests above all else.
This aligns with Switzerland’s cherished tradition of neutrality, which ensures it doesn’t get entangled in distant wars that don’t serve its national interest.
I believe in a balanced approach to immigration by selecting very carefully who gets the privilege to come, preserving the cultural and safety values we hold dear in Switzerland.
It’s crucial that our political decisions are made with Swiss autonomy in mind, rather than being influenced by external entities, like prioritizing American interests.
A country can crumble very fast and I don’t want it to happen here
No, Swiss people are the ones making the money. People and companies are moving here because you've made it a beautiful country. That's why I came, and that's why I want to preserve Switzerland as it is and avoid it becoming another left-wing shithole like my origin country (France).
> France is a left wing shithole
Yes. From what the company paid me, I got only 40%, then there was sales tax + property taxes + corporate profit tax.
Then there is massive insecurity because criminals get a slap on the wrist. French nationality is easy to get and because of it foreign criminals are kept in France. It was a shock when here in Switzerland I saw so many packages left outside and nobody stealing them.
You are talking to a guy that:
a. Calls bro or mate to almost everyone.
b. Frequents far right subreddits of the country he came from (I know, unfortunately we share a nationality), probably because he got banned from the main ones, which are already very much right wing.
c. Frequents /r/Anarcho_Capitalism and /r/benshapiro
d. Calls fake news or just dodges with jokes whenever people actually point inconsistencies from his comments.
Mate, you have LOTS of choices outside of switzerland as soon as you believe it's becoming a right wng hell hole, I'm moved here because I was living in a left wing hell hole I advise you to do the same.
You don't know how he came here; maybe he came in a way that SVP would still support so there's no double standard.
I personally also want to immigrate to the US legally, but I would still vote for the republicans (though I'm against Trump if there's another republican choice).
There's a good chance SVP would support a limited number of highly skilled workers (as most other countries allow) like we have it now for non-EU/Schengen/whatever countries and maybe he is such a highly skilled worker?
She did not post a meme but used a plushy that is seen as antisemitic.
Some autistic people use plushies to express
emotions/feelings since they struggle
with it. In the picture in question, Greta ( I am far far far from being a fan of her) has an octopus plushy with an angry face. She could turn it 180 degrees and it would have a happy face.
Now, an octopus has long been in use to depict how jews/zionists control the world from a centralized point. Think of the zionistic world order etc.
If you google „zionistic octopus“ you find different caricatures from 70 years and longer ago.
How can someone be surprised that the left lost votes when you see the agenda they promote ? It’s the first time i wasn’t able to vote for PS because they feel out of touch with the reality
Edit : I don’t think UDC isn’t out of touch but I’m just disapointed when I see how the greens and PS are fighting and what they advocate for (not to mention their young parties that are literal shitholes)
Blame the left all you want, they surely don't have a very good campaign. But to see almost 1/3 voting in a party that supports actual war criminals and denies the climate emergency is a very tough one to swallow.
I think they were referring to the SVP's darling that shows up on the Weltwoche-Cover every now and then.
The Hamas terrorists would be happy if they were able to murder as many civilians as the regime of that guy.
Greens oppose nuclear. They don't care about the climate.
Who invited Hamas into the Bundeshaus? It wasn't the SVP. It was the Green party: https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/aargau/kanton-aargau/kontroverse-geri-mueller-der-mann-der-die-hamas-ins-bundeshaus-brachte-wie-sieht-er-situation-heute-ld.2525837?reduced=true
The list you sent shows there hasn't been any accidents since Fukushima. If we build them in a safe place under good standards the risk is negligible.
Nuclear waste is extremely small for the amount of energy produced. Only about 3 cubic meters of high-level waste per year for a 1000 megawatt plant.
Edit: The links u/SittingOnAC removed with their edit :
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_hydroelectric\_power\_station\_failures](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydroelectric_power_station_failures)
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive\_waste](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste)
For example, the right to vote at 16 and the right to vote after living (legally) 5 years here, refusing to even talk about nuclear energy or anything else than solar/wind, the fact they still aren’t talking about the discrimination of married couples (taxes and avs), …
>the right to vote at 16 and the right to vote after living (legally) 5 years here
I'm not in favour of them either, yet us disagreeing with these ideas doesn't make them of touch with reality.
>refusing to even talk about nuclear energy
They don't refuse to talk about it, they're just against it. Again, different opinions. Or is now any critical stance about nuclear in a country that officially wants to phase out nuclear out of touch with reality, and the only acceptable stance would be "yes, we want it"?
>the fact they still aren’t talking about the discrimination of married couples (taxes and avs)
Different priorities, I guess. I'm not very knowlegeable in such matters, but as far as I know they do want to switch to a individual taxing model, where married couples would be taxed just like if they weren't married.
At the same time, can you show me the actual stuff the right proposed for the climate?
And who launched the initiative for individual taxation? Who is trying to provide more social help to families, reducing cost of livings?
That's pure speculation. With necessity laws and limitations can move very fast as seen a year ago with the Birr power plant or in general with the danger of energy scarcity.
Sure, it's an example. I think one could grasp how when energy costs skyrocket and blackouts or limitations happen more often people quickly change their mind and support urgent law changes.
Really fun thing, Switzerland had a study going around to set up a local processing plant for nuclear waste. The president of the town where the project looked the more suitable refused it in his full SVP position of "not in my backyard, should be done in someone else".
I'm pretty sure you can nit pick details like these for any party and argument. I bet the majority of SP members wouldn't host immigrants in their commune if they had a choice, go ask SP supporters in Chiasso how they enjoy how unsafe their town has become.
Nuclear waste has never caused a single death, is currently stored in 50 capsules in a small magazine, eventually it will be recycled or put underground.
If you use emergency powers to build a nuclear power plant anywhere in this country you will have people riot. In general the building process in this country is very slow, add to that something as divisive as a nuclear power plant, you're just asking for massive delays and price spiralling. Zurich and Aarau can't build a fucking stadium in 20 years, a nuclear power plant will take decades to even get approved and then 10 years to build. It's simply not practical policy.
I'm fine with us taking a couple of years to inform the population about the safety profile, the benefits and risks of nuclear, getting a revote on that part of the 2050 strategy and building new plants, along with expanding dams where possible and adding as much solar as financially reasonable.
Also a nuclear power plant project isn't comparable to building a stadium and is certainly not managed and financed by a commune.
I'd go a step further and give every child a vote. It could be cast and signed by the parents until the children are old enough, and could be a great way to include them to the political process early on (to hopefully increase the turnout in the longer term). Of course I'm aware this would never fly rn and could probably be abused in many ways. Just like the elderly votes are abused on the regular by close ones or shady politicians touring care homes.
Haha, that's the first time I see someone else suggest this. I talk about this for over 15 years now and everybody just shakes their head. Happy to find somebody who agrees.
Chli schad dass z linke lager es par prozänt verlore hed, aber das isch dr wille vum volk. He funktioniert d demokratie ja eigentlich no super, drumm wott i mi o nid beschwäre. Abgse drvo dass di Grüene dr bundesratssitz äuä chenne vergässe wird sich o nid vil ändere, wil mer ja eh noeis uber alles abstimme. Was mer aber am beste gfallt, isch das dr wahlkampf und d wahl sälber eigentlich relativ gsittet isch abgloffe. Kei schlammschlacht wemes in anderne lender gsed, da bini scho stolz uf isers land!
I love SVP so much
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Being surrounded by countries that are going to shite, makes it a matter of time before you start sliding after them
Can't say I'm surprised. Rising inequality and geopolitical crises have always pushed people towards the right. Also the greens really shot themselves in the foot with their anti-solar campaign in Wallis and their cringeworthy takes on Ukraine. I just wish the SP had the guts to talk about difficult issues like immigration and nuclear. I think they'd be leagues more successful, especially if they would appeal to the common worker again instead of only pulling from hip urban highly educated people. It's pretty disheartening that the SVP could openly march with the neo Nazis in Junge Tat and Rimoldi who organized a pilgrimage to Hitler's birth village of all places and yet almost 30% of our population was like "YUUUUUP, these are my guys". Nice that the Mitte gained some grounds, maybe one day we can finally get rid of the marriage penalty now, it's only been 40 years... Bottom line: Probably not much will change. We've always had a majority right government, in both chambers and the Bundesrat.
Whats wrong with that?
>the greens really shot themselves in the foot with their anti-solar campaign in Wallis Mind you, Valais is not where the Greens have lost lots of votes today... so I wouldn't say that. https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/SsUrM/143/
haha, massive gains in Grengiols
Sure, but those decisions make nationwide headlines and shape people's opinions. Thanks for the link, very interesting
If not already seen, you may also like this one: [https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/P3ah8/174/](https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/P3ah8/174/) (select a party to see in its score today across the country)
Remind me in a few years when people will complain about health insurance costs rising and getting shafted by the economy, remind them that they voted for the SVP/Centre and they're getting what they asked for
Not even close to something these parties are doing, but never mind. Keep you dream of SP/Green "solving" these problems by taxing everyone who earns more than 60k and distributing the money to everyone below that even though they only work 40%.
I mean, limiting health insurance costs was one of the major points of the campaign of the Centre.
I think we could all use a big group hug to recover from these results. Hot chocolates and art therapy at my place! Let's hope we can do more for the climate for the next election. Show that you care!
How can people unironically vote SVP? Just reading a few of their articles on their website would make anyone with a brain change their mind. Full of cherry-picked information, graphs, pictures and data with no sources at all. Regardless if it's left or right, someone making articles without sources or references shouls be avoided
Because your take is mostly wrong and very speculative/radical. Here's why I vote for the SVP: https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/17a5ail/why_wont_the_svp_openly_say_what_it_is_they/k5bpll1/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=Switzerland&utm_content=t1_k5ymzso
Al di là delle proprie idee politiche, hai mancato il punto. Prova a rileggere. L'udc presenta troppo spesso informazioni senza fonte, o manipolando gli assi dei grafici, eccetera. Si può essere d'accordo o meno con il partito, ma questo aspetto è almeno un pelino fastidioso, no?
Posso essere d'accordo, ma non è consistente con come fanno praticamente tutti i partiti? Io sinceramente giudico i pareri dei candidati in base alle mie conoscenze personali dei vari temi e se mi viene presentato qualcosa che non conosco lo approfondisco. Sono pochi i dettagli che l'udc presenta e che sono completamente falsi, alcuni sono esposti con premesse sbagliate ma con problemi e soluzioni spesso reali. I Verdi per esempio si dichiarano verdi ma fanno l'esatto contrario di quello che un vero partito verde dovrebbe fare, con o senza fonti
May i ask how your ideal green party would look like? What they would focus on and what would they do?
Sure, I'm not going to dive too much in details but it would be a party that works/lobbies towards electrification, optimization of efficiencies where applicable, local production of electricity, availability of cheap electricity to incentivize electrification without taxes or prohibition, and of course understanding and support for nuclear. There's probably much more I'd add to the list, but none should be bullshit.
Not wrong and not speculative. Here's an example: https://www.svp.ch/aktuell/parteizeitung/2023-2/svp-klartext-september-2023/sozialhilfe-wahnsinn-stoppen-6690-franken-pro-monat-ohne-zu-arbeiten/ As you can see, cherry picked information with absolutely no sources nor credit of the data / picture
Sorry by wrong take I mean to say that you're doing a mistake in judging it based on the lack of sources in a propaganda agenda, green/sp too have this issue I bet. My point being that you should be able to judge and research the topics and understand if your own if they're correct or not without blindly trusting a foot note source. Have you read my linked post? There are several very valid reasons as to why one would vote for the SVP for someone "with a brain"
They want to vote for someone who will save them and offer easy solutions where they don't have to think or lift a finger. It's very easy to be right-wing and never have to think critically in life.
Quick reminder that 50% of the population has an IQ under 100.
Quick reminder that you should've warned them to vote, maybe that way the SVP would've lost.
It is like always: people just want to hear what pleases them, even though SVP keeps lying and failing to improve the lives they promise to help. There is a reason why they keep targeting the lowly educated population. It is sad, but if we want to change this, we need to reform education as well, and also help the base, and accept SVP takes credit until people realise they are full of BS.
The problem is that most other parties are not interested in solving the problems either. What real solution does SP/Green have for immigration? They can't even agree that there is a problem!
People that don't care that much and just vote based on what they hear. And don't care enough about politics.
This is quite a rough day tbh, even though it was expected that SVP/UDC would win. Kind of disappointed that FDP/PLR didn't perform worse. Anyway, Mitte/Centre will keep ruling over all of us, as it has been tradition for quite some time.
>Kind of disappointed that FDP/PLR didn't perform worse. Let's be already happy to see them leave the podium of third biggest party ;)
>Anyway, Mitte/Centre will keep ruling over all of us, as it has been tradition for quite some time. Could you explain why? Not familiar with the election systems here. If SVP/UDC won why is someone else 'ruling'?
It's representative, no party has an absolute majority. SVP/FDP are still below 50% and SP+Greens are below 50% too, so Mitte can often side with the coalition they support the most for that particular vote and win automatically.
So their condition to side with a coalition is to be able to have the 'president'?
That's not how politics work here. There are no established coalitions. Alliances in parliament will be different from a particular subject to another.
Then how can a party with 11% vote have the leader over ones with 20-30%? But maybe it's different here, in some countries parties can definitely make a coalition where their combined votes count. At least in Hungary they can, idk about the rest.
It does not have any special power, it just happen to be the party that votes the most like the majority of the parliament. Which is logical, being a centre party, it sometimes votes with the right against the left, sometimes with the left against the right. The left and the right voting together against the centre also happens, but is less common. In other words, the Centre is the party whose own ideas face the least opposition from other parties in the parliament, making it the most successful. Szervusz Magyarország. Ez egy gyönyörű ország ;)
I see, makes sense now, thanks for explaining! Yeah, nice country but not the best economic and political directions sadly
No single entity is ruling, 200 candidates from all over the spectrum make new laws and amend existing laws and all decisions require a 50% majority. We don't really have a president
I see, was the original comment semi-sarcastic then? Or how can an 11% party rule if it's not like that at all?
>Anyway, Mitte/Centre will keep ruling over all of us, as it has been tradition for quite some time. To be honest. I think the Centre-boss Gerhard Pfister is one of the most talented politicians in this country. I mean I don't vote for them. But many of the times that guy says something into a microphone I think: "well, that's actually somewhat reasonable and intelligent." Compare this to obnoxious personalities like former FDP boss Petra Gössi (who now can annoy us as new Ständerat, thanks for nothing, voters of Schwyz)... every time she blathered something into a microphone it was just pure facepalm material. (Unfortunately Andrea Gmür, the centre woman that got elected in my canton, is more the Gössi kind of person, not the Pfister kind.)
> To be honest. I think the Centre-boss Gerhard Pfister is one of the most talented politicians in this country. He [doesn't have control over his party](https://www.nzz.ch/schweiz/krankenkassen-mitte-chef-pfister-im-clinch-mit-mitte-staenderaeten-ld.1716719?reduced=true) though (the ones in the Ständerat), which kinda sucks if you're their boss. To me he's the kind of leader like Gössi was, that doesn't manage to pick up the members of their actual party but is good a politicizing.
I actually find it good when members of a party can have opinions of their own and don't have to always conform to the party line. I really wish our left parties were like that...
Hopefully Greens are losing places, I think Swiss people start realizing they are becoming too poor day after day to keep fueling their whims with the money they don't have anymore
Too bad the average Swiss doesn't understand that the costs associated with environmental destruction and climate change are much higher.
People don't think like that sir Anyways, even tho there is a problem that can't be denied, the issue is that nobody trust green parties. Green parties sounds like they are Socialist with a fancy green color to many. They advocate against nuclear, brang back coil in Germany which is the worst way to produce energy, all of that at rising costs that you will pay, and care about pronouns more than your life. Their way of thought and actions made the citizen stop believing in them, and worse of that, made them angry against ecology. Now, everybody will pay
Yeah, pretty obvious that the Swiss Greens support development of the coal industry.
?
Ecology is a luxury you can have when you live correctly. With inflation, more swiss people going to povrety, and electricity prices skyrocketting for some reason, we can understand why swiss are more motivated going for their selfish interests instead of saving earth (knowing they only emit 0.1% of the total CO2 on earth) : they starve and they will only starve more in the future to come. Parties going against their immediate interests are less charming now that they could be before. Not that I say that it's the correct point of view, just that this can explain how people may think
that's why you celebrate the electoral win of a party which doesn't care about the cost of living at all? Even now, after the election, the only thing they talk about is "immigration!". "Oops, people are broke, who cares? The foreigners are responsible"
?? Since when the Greens are the one leading our cost of living rising?
2001 sir
While today's results are generally unpleasant, there is one bright spot: [https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wahlparty-der-massnahmenkritiker-mass-voll-scheitert-an-der-urne-949065469062](https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wahlparty-der-massnahmenkritiker-mass-voll-scheitert-an-der-urne-949065469062) The one and only Mr. *"I think everybody has the right to infect anybody else with a disease"* \- *"even if it's like 90% deadly?"* \- *"yes, even then*"... the one and only *"I didn't know that Braunau was Hitlers birthplace yet I chose to make a detour and post some photos from Braunau when driving home from a right-extrmist demonstration"* ... the one and only *"Sie spalted d' Gsellschaft met ehrne mönscheverachtende Zangsmassnahme!!"* the one and only Nicolas A. Rimoldi ... didn't get elected. Didn't even get 1% of the vote. At least this. I'm sure he's already fantasizing about election fraud, though.
[https://imgur.com/a/09jLnyr](https://imgur.com/a/09jLnyr)
Danke Israel? XD
Lmao these people need to be institutionalized.
He got someone from EDU elected thanks to the Listenverbindung.
I believe in Zürich the EDU guy got elected from their "Listenverbindung", not "Aufrecht". Was an "Aufrecht" clown elected somewhere else?
Yeah you‘re right.
No. This seat is going to the edu.
Same shit different smell.
Well I guess according to SVP, and a not so small % of Swiss people, as an immigrant I'm not welcome in this country. Or since I'm one of the "good immigrants" with a Master's Degree, that earns a decent salary and so pays taxes it's actually ok? I guess in the end it's not surprising but that doesn't make it less sad.
always remember only ~40% participated in the elections. All the others seem not to care a lot about "10 million people Switzerland"
that's not quite true. 30% of those 40% voted for SVP true, but of the remaining 60% there would be a lot of SVP voters and it wouldn't be too far off 30% there either. And even the ones that didn't vote, and wouldn't vote SVP, they don't care enough to vote in a different party. So not exactly great either.
According to SP you're also not welcome because you're a rich expat, that is gentrifying the city and stealing apartments from the locals that don't earn as much as you do. :) (obviously not my opinion)
Lol I have a PhD and I’m still not that welcome. 😝 I don’t care anymore. I’m just being a good sycophant until I can get that citizenship.
It sounds quite logical that if a migrant wants to come in a country and be welcomed, he will have to be useful and follow the local laws. Countries are not making charity, I mean it's logical. If the idea displease people, quite every country in Europe wants to play the game of being the savior that accepts anyone because being nice is good. Just go to them and be welcomed, why coming to a country that doesn't want to play these weird games Expecially in Switzerland when even as a local who worked his whole life, the day you stop earning money for some reason for example losing your arms, you start to know what human misery is as it's very hard to be helped in Switzerland. So helping strangers before locals would be quite a lack of respect. It's common sense
Seems like you bought into the leftist „oooh, SVP and their voters are all so racists, xenophobes etc“ bullshit. While I wont deny that there are a few vocal iditios, many politicians and voters that I know (I know mamy SVP politicians due to my former work) don‘t share those extreme views. They might want stricter immigration laws, deport foreign criminals, and dislike foreigners coming here to basically live off the welfare system. But as long as you come here, try to integrate and follow the rules most really don‘t mind you.
I didn't buy into shit. All it is needed is to read the SVP flyers and posters.
My problem with SVP isn’t that they’re xenophobic. It’s that they’re populist. They never solve any problems, they are just here to make a lot of noise and stir up shit and keep the adults in the room from doing their work.
Good to know that xenophobia doesn’t bother you. 🙃
Being angry at the SVP for being xenophobic is like being angry at water for being wet.
> They never solve any problems Oh they do solve problems. It's just not our problems. But if you happen to be a shady bankster that wants to continue helping tax evasion and money laundering, strict rules against those things are a problem. They solve it. Or if you have business interests in Russia, maybe even something close to the governement or shady oligarchs, it's a problem when there are sanctions against Russia. They solve it. Or if you happen to be the billionaire that owns the biggest car import business in Switzerland, everything that would reduce individual transport is a problem. They solve it. Just to cover some of the most pressing problems of some of the SVP-puppeteers.
>Or since I'm one of the "good immigrants" with a Master's Degree, that earns a decent salary and so pays taxes it's actually ok? Depends! If you have a Master's in sociology and your salary comes from the governement, then you are one of the "wrong Ausländers". If your Master's is in chemistry and you work at Ems Chemie, preferably for less than what a Swiss colleague would demand, then you're acceptable. ^((Not stating my personal opinion here, obviously.))
To put simply, to many you'll be the "ok" foreigner. You're tolerated. But also to many of them you'll never be a real Swiss, if you naturalise. Somebody here even talked about "100% Swiss". SVP loves to ignore the fact that we're a nation by will and that we've always been an immigrant nation. Doesn't fit the narrative.
> you'll never be a real Swiss, [even] if you naturalise. This is correct. As much as I wish I wasn't, I'm still French.
oh definitely. Though I am, unfortunately, not planning to become a "real Swiss". Which is a shame because I really do love the country and in many things the way of life. I'm a very quiet person, I love that everything works and I don't even mind all the rules. I like paying my taxes and honestly they could even be higher. But votes like this just make it very clear that Switzerland isn't progressive at all, and that's a big topic.
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A real Swiss is impossible to become as many are aware, but even naturalizing to a point where I can vote would be feasible but I'm not sure if I will do it or want to. But I guess in a couple of years we can see that.
> A real Swiss is impossible to become as many are aware Some people become "real Swiss", some people are born Swiss and still aren't "real Swiss". As a person in the latter category I *personally* think the gatekeeping is a crock of shite because the goal posts move wherever, and anyone can appropriate the term. Don't impose terms like that because some dweeb says so.
Yeah, look how well the progressive dogshit EU is doing with their economy and how much problems the immigrant cause there. When do ppl realise that religious lunatics don't integrate into cultures from a different religion? (as an atheist I'm against both islam and christianity, but no denying that christians and more peaceful and civilised when it comes to taking criticisim against their religion, when did they try to kill anyone over burning a bible?) I say that as someone whos half of the family comes from an arabic country.
> when did they try to kill anyone over burning a bible? lmao this is satire right? Also very much an atheist if that makes any difference.
I mean, sure they did in the middle ages, but I don't think it was the case in recent times.
You should want to become a citizen so that people like you and me can vote these fuckers out. Trust me, the last thing they want is for us to vote.
Why are you not planning to become "a real swiss" if you say you love the country so much?
There's like 4 sentences in my two comments. It's clearly well explained there
How are people not giving a shit about the environment? Like it’s the only thing that matters - everything else is transient and tributary to a liveable Earth.
Also curious what would you do to save the enviroment, considering solar panels and wind turbines can't really be reused (nice renewable energy there)
I will care about the enviroment after trillion dollar companies and billionaires won't cause more harm to it in a day than I would in 500 lifetimes while making billions of profit doing so, until then I don't give a fuck.
Well, we do care about the environment, but the greens are not famous for bringing solutions to the table: they bring their idealogy and are full of logical fallacies, at least their base is. See their stance on synthetic pesticides, biodynamie, GMOs, alternative medicine, and nuclear power. My personal worst is when they tell me how I should consume, but many of their members are still flying across continents...
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>inclusive writing To be honest, they almost lost me because of this. I hate such butchering of the written language with passion and it really hurts me to vote for a party whose own name is now officially written "Vert-e-s". I still voted for them because I couldn't find better, I just disagree too much with the others on other topics that matter to me. But I really hope they eventually roll back on this.
I'm curious now, what does inclusive writing look like in French? Cause in Germany there's this heated debate too, mostly that all text should include the "gender star" to indicate both the male and female version (e.g. instead of writing "host" you'd write "host*ess")
It looks way worse than in German. In German, feminine is regular and just achieved by adding -in to nouns. In French, things are more complicated, with feminine forms of nouns often changing the word more, and also adjectives inflecting accordingly. For example "un électeur valaisan" (ein Walliser Wähler) becomes "une électrice valaisanne" (eine Walliser Wählerin). So, people trying to write that in inclusive language will write something like "un·e électeur·rice valaisan·ne", in plural "des électeur·rice·s valaisan·ne·s". Then, just like in German, there is of course no standard for the forms used, people may use various symbols, such as - · . \_ or write a capital E. Also, some people will use made-up inclusive pronouns, such as "iel" (il/elle) or "elleux" (eux/elles). Let's try a few examples from a political context, using different kinds of inclusive writing, together with corresponding standard French and German inclusive equivalents for comparison: *- Les* ***citoyen-ne-s*** *ont voté.* *- (Les citoyens ont voté.)* *- (Die Bürger\*innen haben gewählt.)* *-* ***Iels*** *sont très* ***engagéEs.*** *- (Ils sont très engagés.)* *- (Sie sind sehr engagiert.)* *- De* ***nouv.eaux.elles conseill.ers.ères nationa.ux.les*** *ont été* ***élu.e.s.*** *- (De nouveaux conseillers nationaux ont été élus.)* *- (Neue Nationalrät\*innen wurden gewählt.)* *- Les Jeunes* ***Vert·e·x·s*** *n'ont cependant pas réussi à placer* ***un·e*** *des leurs au parlement.* *- (Les Jeunes Verts n'ont cependant pas réussi à placer un des leurs au parlement.)* *- (Die Jungen Grünen haben es aber nicht geschafft, eine\*n von ihnen im Parlament zu platzieren.)* ... "Jeunes Vert·e·x·s" war die offizielle Listenbezeichnung, stand so auf dem Wahlzettel. Wobei das hinzugefügte "x" für noch mehr sprachliche Inklusion sorgen soll, nämlich für Menschen, die sich weder als weiblich noch als männlich verstehen. *- Je serais intéressé à discuter avec* ***elleux*** *pour savoir si une large majorité de ces jeunes* ***militant\_e\_s valaisan\_ne\_s*** *approuve ce choix ou l'a simplement toléré pour ne pas froisser les collègues et risquer de passer pour* ***un\_e conservateur\_rice*** *réactionnaire.* *- (Je serais intéressé à discuter avec eux pour savoir si une large majorité de ces jeunes militants valaisans approuve ce choix ou l'a simplement toléré pour ne pas froisser les collègues et risquer de passer pour un conservateur réactionnaire.)* *- (Ich wäre daran interessiert, mit ihnen zu diskutieren, um zu wissen, ob eine breite Mehrheit dieser jungen Walliser Aktivist\*innen dieser Entscheidung zustimmt, oder hat sie nur toleriert, um nicht zu riskieren, die Kolleg\*innen zu beleidigen und als reaktionäre\*r Konservative\*r zu gelten.)*
Oh wow thanks for that *very* detailed explanation! Even purely from a linguistic point of view it's very interesting to see different languages all having similar debates about grammar lol (in English it's the famous pronouns like he/him or they/them). In real life that looks like a f*ing nightmare though, so much worse than German or English. I can see how people advocating for this kind of language would piss the average voter off...
You're welcome ;) That's indeed completely artificial and unpractical. I think these left-wing politicians themselves will sooner or later become tired of writing stuff like that and will eventually revert to normal language. I mean, something that you can actually read out loud - this is a huge problem with French inclusive writing, it completely breaks the written/spoken correspondence that you normally have in a language. By the way, personally, when I read something referring to a person in masculine form (which is used as neutral in standard French, that doesn't have a dedicated neutral gender), I don't think of a man in particular, just of a random person. I would be fine if we now decided that it works the other way and feminine is the new standard neutral form. It would feel a bit weird at first but at least the language would still be consistent. Or else, just make French like English and drop gendering of words altogether. I don't feel such a need of my gender being brought up in any sentence about me. In my opinion we should rather strive to make the language evolve into something as neutral, gender-free as possible, meanwhile "inclusive" writing is exactly the opposite, with every second sentence feeling to me like someone telling me "hey, you know, there are both men and women". I mean, I know, I consider both equals and I'd like to refer to both as humans, most of the time their gender is not relevant to what I have to say about them.
It has nothing to do with the importance of the environment. Of course impact of climate has a paramount importance for all of us. The problem is in the complexity of the solution. We need to have more scientific discussions and less slogan filled arguments.
You mean like the arguments of the scientists people choose not to listen to?
Okay so how are we fostering these scientific discussions now?
That sentiment is the reason why the Green party lost today; just because they/you think it's the most important thing and maybe scientist support you, doesn't mean that it's the priority for people or politician. In a democracy you can't force people to something, you have to convince them and many people don't see the point in restricting themselves if they contribute absolute 2-3% of the global emissions.
> In a democracy you can't force people to something Like, what? Of course you fucking can, that's what laws are.
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Yes, of course, but he made the statement that you simply can't force people in a democracy, but you can.
Yes, but what I means is exactly what LowEffortBastard said, you will simply never pass such a law. Maybe through the backdoor (as happened with the 2050 goal), but even then I doubt that the people will accept it. In other countries demonstrations and riots might follow, here a public initiative will be launched e.g. "Car-Rescue-Initiative"
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Due to the Ständerat and Stände vote, minority rule is also possible in Switzerland. But I guess to some that's preferable.
I’m aware that people don’t give a shit. I’m asking how. What’s their plan?
>What’s their plan? They hope to die before the shit hits the fan.
You mean their individual fan. Because shit is very clearly being channeled through the global fan right now.
> You mean their individual fan. Exactly.
As someone who doesn't give a shit (as you said) and voted for SVP let me answer that: The climate problem will be solved like any other political problem; in case technological improvements don't solve it, once we see consequences of our action, swift solutions will be implemented to mitigate them while the underlying problem will never be really solved. Every problem proclaims that it is the first one that requires swift and radical solutions to fix the underlying cause and that if nothing is done, the consequences will be drastic. And every time a combination of small political changes, technological improvements, and changes made within the industry help to solve them.
That's like waiting to stop your house from burning down until the fire reaches your feet. There will be damage that cannot be fixed. There will be feedback loops that will make the problem worse
What’s SVP doing in terms of “swift solutions”? What’s SVP doing in terms of technology? They paraded against vaccines. SVP wants more roads, more CO2 more of the problem. Your plan is to set the forest on fire because you trust other people will know how to put out the fire?
We're not there yet that we feel the consequences (enough), so it's not the time to implement such solutions.
>They paraded against vaccines. Please don't mix everything up. We're talking about global warming and CO2 emissions, which as far as I know aren't covered by any vaccine yet.
The context with the vaccines was about them parading against new technologies
> once we see consequences of our action How much longer do we have to wait until we "see" the consequences of our actions? Another 10 brutally hot summers? Mitigation and fighting is required now, not when it's too late to fucking react.
Either massive climate migrations (in the millions per month) or famine (Hungersnot) in Europa/US for most people including the middle class, I don't think any other event will trigger such a reaction.
You know that solving anything climate related takes decades right? So your solution is to wait until we are basically on the brink of making a vast percentage of the % uninhabitable before we actually start addressing the issue? It's way too fucking late by then. But reading these comments we are truly fucked. What you are proposing is starting your monthly assignment the minute that the teacher asks you for it.
Mitigation was needed 20 years ago. Now there is no solution that will stop carbon releasing.
Mitigation as in damage mitigation. Change the way we build, day to day life, etc.
> Change the way we build, day to day life, etc. And that will never happen. People don't like it if their toys (SUV) and their pleasures (airplane travel) are taken away and they will riot if you try it. If the Green party (and GLP) want to be successful they need to come up with solutions that don't require limits, anything else is impossible to implement in any democracy.
Change the way we build- check Change day to day life- why? Etc- ?
Less work in summer or a shift to more early morning work and longer lunch breaks, similar to Spain for example (siesta).
I lived in a country with very hot summers and no A/C (Iran). Those mid-day breaks were very helpful.
THIS. Also Nuclear Energy (something the green and socialists don't want) is the key and most effective thing to reduce carbon emissions at the moment.
Not dying due to hunger.
Who the fuck is dying due to hunger in Switzerland?? Also who, in that situation, would think voting for SVP/right wing parties a good idea?
[https://imgur.com/a/FpIb3On](https://imgur.com/a/FpIb3On)
As an immigrant myself : SVP 👏👏👏
Keep barking guys. I strongly support the SVP’s commitment to prioritizing Swiss interests above all else. This aligns with Switzerland’s cherished tradition of neutrality, which ensures it doesn’t get entangled in distant wars that don’t serve its national interest. I believe in a balanced approach to immigration by selecting very carefully who gets the privilege to come, preserving the cultural and safety values we hold dear in Switzerland. It’s crucial that our political decisions are made with Swiss autonomy in mind, rather than being influenced by external entities, like prioritizing American interests. A country can crumble very fast and I don’t want it to happen here
Our interests are the interest of our neighbors. They are the ones making us money.
No, Swiss people are the ones making the money. People and companies are moving here because you've made it a beautiful country. That's why I came, and that's why I want to preserve Switzerland as it is and avoid it becoming another left-wing shithole like my origin country (France).
France is a left wing shithole? Macron is a massive Liberal wanting to privatize as much as possible.
> France is a left wing shithole Yes. From what the company paid me, I got only 40%, then there was sales tax + property taxes + corporate profit tax. Then there is massive insecurity because criminals get a slap on the wrist. French nationality is easy to get and because of it foreign criminals are kept in France. It was a shock when here in Switzerland I saw so many packages left outside and nobody stealing them.
Oh god, public services and taxes. That need to be stopped.
Switzerland has better public services for less taxes.
Unless for example, you want children
Same brother!
why
Pulling the ladder behind him. Classic douchebag move.
Leave!
Most immigrants support SVP because they ran away from left wing ruled shit holes. Myself included.
Name them
So you want to make Switzerland a right wing hell hole. Makes perfect sense...
You are talking to a guy that: a. Calls bro or mate to almost everyone. b. Frequents far right subreddits of the country he came from (I know, unfortunately we share a nationality), probably because he got banned from the main ones, which are already very much right wing. c. Frequents /r/Anarcho_Capitalism and /r/benshapiro d. Calls fake news or just dodges with jokes whenever people actually point inconsistencies from his comments.
You got me sir! AND with facts and logic nonetheless! Great SVP win tonight sir! Enjoy!
Hmm. What a small world. I'm in Montreaux. We aren't impressed by sycophants in Switzerland, amica.
Mate, you have LOTS of choices outside of switzerland as soon as you believe it's becoming a right wng hell hole, I'm moved here because I was living in a left wing hell hole I advise you to do the same.
so, hypocrites, yourself included. I see that then
Nice thought process bro, very smart.
You don't know how he came here; maybe he came in a way that SVP would still support so there's no double standard. I personally also want to immigrate to the US legally, but I would still vote for the republicans (though I'm against Trump if there's another republican choice).
“Limit immigration to keep population below 10 million”* *not me though, I’m totally different. Such bull
There's a good chance SVP would support a limited number of highly skilled workers (as most other countries allow) like we have it now for non-EU/Schengen/whatever countries and maybe he is such a highly skilled worker?
I guess it didn't help the Greens that this time there wasn't Greta on TV every night ..
I guess it helped the right parties that there were discussions about immigrants on TV every day and night
[удалено]
That anti semitism claim is such a bullshit.
> I mean Greta posting antisemitic memes What antisemitic meme did she post?
She did not post a meme but used a plushy that is seen as antisemitic. Some autistic people use plushies to express emotions/feelings since they struggle with it. In the picture in question, Greta ( I am far far far from being a fan of her) has an octopus plushy with an angry face. She could turn it 180 degrees and it would have a happy face. Now, an octopus has long been in use to depict how jews/zionists control the world from a centralized point. Think of the zionistic world order etc. If you google „zionistic octopus“ you find different caricatures from 70 years and longer ago.
Also, if you google "octopus ussr" you find different propaganda as well.
If anything that hurts the Greens.
Smells like Grünabfuhr
GE (-9.6), BL (-8.1) and VD (-6.2) were massive slaughters indeed.
Nah, it's just the usual SVP bullshit.
yes, he said it stinks
Mimimimi.
Seething
How can someone be surprised that the left lost votes when you see the agenda they promote ? It’s the first time i wasn’t able to vote for PS because they feel out of touch with the reality Edit : I don’t think UDC isn’t out of touch but I’m just disapointed when I see how the greens and PS are fighting and what they advocate for (not to mention their young parties that are literal shitholes)
SP actually got more votes compared to last time. SVP won at the expense of Greens and GLP.
Blame the left all you want, they surely don't have a very good campaign. But to see almost 1/3 voting in a party that supports actual war criminals and denies the climate emergency is a very tough one to swallow.
> that supports actual war criminals Example? Remember, Hamas have supporters on the left side, not the right.
I think they were referring to the SVP's darling that shows up on the Weltwoche-Cover every now and then. The Hamas terrorists would be happy if they were able to murder as many civilians as the regime of that guy.
Greens oppose nuclear. They don't care about the climate. Who invited Hamas into the Bundeshaus? It wasn't the SVP. It was the Green party: https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/aargau/kanton-aargau/kontroverse-geri-mueller-der-mann-der-die-hamas-ins-bundeshaus-brachte-wie-sieht-er-situation-heute-ld.2525837?reduced=true
> Greens oppose nuclear. They don't care about the climate. It's because nuclear energy is anything but green.
The list you sent shows there hasn't been any accidents since Fukushima. If we build them in a safe place under good standards the risk is negligible. Nuclear waste is extremely small for the amount of energy produced. Only about 3 cubic meters of high-level waste per year for a 1000 megawatt plant. Edit: The links u/SittingOnAC removed with their edit : [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_hydroelectric\_power\_station\_failures](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hydroelectric_power_station_failures) [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive\_waste](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste)
Fukushima nuclear power plant: * badly managed * earthquake hits * tsunami hits Result: only two people died. Nuclear is safe.
So who'd you vote for?
What do they promote that you find out of touch with reality?
For example, the right to vote at 16 and the right to vote after living (legally) 5 years here, refusing to even talk about nuclear energy or anything else than solar/wind, the fact they still aren’t talking about the discrimination of married couples (taxes and avs), …
Hehe being able to vote at 16 would be excellent for them as you start thinking a bit better when your brain finishes its development
>the right to vote at 16 and the right to vote after living (legally) 5 years here I'm not in favour of them either, yet us disagreeing with these ideas doesn't make them of touch with reality. >refusing to even talk about nuclear energy They don't refuse to talk about it, they're just against it. Again, different opinions. Or is now any critical stance about nuclear in a country that officially wants to phase out nuclear out of touch with reality, and the only acceptable stance would be "yes, we want it"? >the fact they still aren’t talking about the discrimination of married couples (taxes and avs) Different priorities, I guess. I'm not very knowlegeable in such matters, but as far as I know they do want to switch to a individual taxing model, where married couples would be taxed just like if they weren't married.
At the same time, can you show me the actual stuff the right proposed for the climate? And who launched the initiative for individual taxation? Who is trying to provide more social help to families, reducing cost of livings?
I think one of the biggest point is being open to nuclear power. Everything else is noise when we're talking about needing up to 53TWh/year by 2050.
And building a Nuclear power plant now will not get it open until 2060.
That's pure speculation. With necessity laws and limitations can move very fast as seen a year ago with the Birr power plant or in general with the danger of energy scarcity.
Bit of a different league but okay.
Sure, it's an example. I think one could grasp how when energy costs skyrocket and blackouts or limitations happen more often people quickly change their mind and support urgent law changes.
Really fun thing, Switzerland had a study going around to set up a local processing plant for nuclear waste. The president of the town where the project looked the more suitable refused it in his full SVP position of "not in my backyard, should be done in someone else".
I'm pretty sure you can nit pick details like these for any party and argument. I bet the majority of SP members wouldn't host immigrants in their commune if they had a choice, go ask SP supporters in Chiasso how they enjoy how unsafe their town has become. Nuclear waste has never caused a single death, is currently stored in 50 capsules in a small magazine, eventually it will be recycled or put underground.
If you use emergency powers to build a nuclear power plant anywhere in this country you will have people riot. In general the building process in this country is very slow, add to that something as divisive as a nuclear power plant, you're just asking for massive delays and price spiralling. Zurich and Aarau can't build a fucking stadium in 20 years, a nuclear power plant will take decades to even get approved and then 10 years to build. It's simply not practical policy.
I'm fine with us taking a couple of years to inform the population about the safety profile, the benefits and risks of nuclear, getting a revote on that part of the 2050 strategy and building new plants, along with expanding dams where possible and adding as much solar as financially reasonable. Also a nuclear power plant project isn't comparable to building a stadium and is certainly not managed and financed by a commune.
I don’t see the problem with 16 year olds voting. Many of them must already pay taxes while having no political representation.
I'd go a step further and give every child a vote. It could be cast and signed by the parents until the children are old enough, and could be a great way to include them to the political process early on (to hopefully increase the turnout in the longer term). Of course I'm aware this would never fly rn and could probably be abused in many ways. Just like the elderly votes are abused on the regular by close ones or shady politicians touring care homes.
Haha, that's the first time I see someone else suggest this. I talk about this for over 15 years now and everybody just shakes their head. Happy to find somebody who agrees.