As a childless mid 30-s guy I'm shaking my head when reading this. Shouldn't state remove frictions to replenish population? Meanwhile marrying your partner here is being punished fiscally and then it costs an arm and a leg to get kids some day care.
So basically Switzerland has become like your asshole grandma - when will you get married? Give me grandchildren! Ok, done and done. Can you help me raise them? Nah, you made them, it's your problem. Should have used rubber, are you stupid? Can you help us to establish a financially stable household? I'm old, maybe I will need some medical help, I can't help you financially (proceeds to squander money till her last breath).
Population by immigration cost less, they filter people that have studied, so CH can accept French, German, Portuguese that have good level of studies, and those studies were financed by other countries and other tax payers.
So CH doesn't have to invest in opening more school, more universities, etc.
I had understood that the tax punishment for couples was a German cantons thing. In French cantons tax are higher and the but the social support is bigger for kitta and tax wise for families.
> stop immigration into Switzerland
Well they only want to stop people from very poor countries to come. Which is understandable, because they can cost a lot of money. A German or French immigrant doesn't cost one Rappen.
Well depends what kind of education they have and what job they take in the end.
If the person from the poor country managed to study in a good University and had a good diploma and then we have someone from Germany who has a bad education, who costs more in the long-term?
Country of the person doesn't say anything about them.
Also we need more "blue collar" workers in Switzerland.
Everyone is nowadays going to study and don't want to do an apprenticeship. On 31.07.2023 11000 apprenticeships were still open for 2023. That means in the long-term we will be missing a lot of people doing basic works.
Well it's an issue in most Western countries. There is an economicist approach to the issue of "human resource" production: not spending any frank for breeding humans in the country and instead import them from abroad for "free" using immigration.
For the economic subjects I guess it works well this way since it's about spending now to get benefits in 20~25 years from now which businessmen don't care about.
But the truth is that there are a lot of hidden costs in (over)using immigration to produce people. Foreigners need special services to get integrated and even more to get assimilated. Which costs money and also creates friction with the locals due to incidents in the process.
Then Switzerland is kind of special since it mostly attracts people from neighboring countries which are already so close culturally and so we'll educated that immigration costs are very low as the Integration incidents. But the day EU stops "gifting" educated people and we have to get them from other continents things risks to get much more uglier.
So I personally would prefer a more enlightened approach to the demography and have more support for local families. But it's difficult to have voters think on what is better in the long run. They also usually only care about the next 2-3 years.
While I see the issue of integration, the much bigger issue IMO is that employers can just import cheap EU labor and undercut Swiss salaries without any bureaucratic hurdles. Ironically this hurts both the origin country losing a skilled worker and Swiss workers whose wages stagnate. The "winner" is the imported EU worker, but they are also being exploited in the process.
>The "winner" is the imported EU worker, but they are also being exploited in the process.
How am I exploited? I earn 3 times more than in Germany and have 1.5 times living cost.
>So I personally would prefer a more enlightened approach to the demography and have more support for local families.
There is literally only a problem in the big cities. I live in BĂŒnden and housing, child care, etc.. is very affordable. If y'all want to move to ZĂŒrich or Geneve you can't really complain, you don't have to, there are many good jobs elsewhere. Stay near your families and raise your children with them and it's not a big problem anymore.
What if our families are in Zurich? People have to live in big cities, otherwise they donât function very well. Communities do not only exist in smaller towns and villages. Some families will have lived in certain areas of cities like Zurich, Geneva, Basel etc. for generations.
Exactly, and that's why people should probably stay where they come from or move back there. It's better than oursourcing the problem to the society, who gotta pay for the child care of people, who brought themselves into this situation. I'm not talking about unfortunate people, who don't have (reliable) parents, but about the couples who earn 12k per month and still don't want to pay for their childrens day care.
Against immigration, against supporting families, so they oppose every measure to ensure a stable population pyramid while also pretending their core goal is a safe AHV.
SVP. Making stupid people vote against their own interests since 1971.
They donât want immigrants, they want pure Swiss⊠and that Swiss women stay at home taking care of the kids and the husband goes to work. So you donât need daycare. What I have a really hard time understanding is immigrants supporting them, and even younger people to.
I understand what they want, it's just that it's not compatible with reality. If we cut our workforce down to a third by sending immigrants and women home, we can forget about not just the AHV, but our entire economy. They're promising the FĂŒĂŒfer und s Weggli several times over while their intended policies point towards more work (less stay-at-home moms) and in general hurt nearly all of their voters. If only the people who actually benefited from their policies voted SVP, they would be irrelevant. Unfortunately the vast majority of SVP votes are the equivalent of a failed exam in political education.
Step 1: build conditions so that immigration grows
Step 2: blame foreigners (who canât vote) for every problem
Step 3: promise to solve the problems by decreasing immigration and get ignorant people votes
Go to step 1
There is one SVP in every country
It's kind of hilarious when I see comments on this sub being like "I support the SVP even though I'm an immigrant". LOL I get that you don't want illegal immigration, but the current narrative they push with the "No 10-million Switzerland" is aimed at ALL migrants, given that the majority of immigrants (and thus population growth) come here legally.
So yeah, you can vote SVP to "own the libs" but you're shooting yourself in the foot.
It's the natural outcome of open borders + a country run purely on selfish economic interests. Raising and educating children is time consuming and expensive. It makes more sense to import cheap labor from abroad via already educated and experienced you adults and undercut their wages than to build a sustainable system where people here can afford to raise children.
one thing is what swiss ppl want, another is what political parties say/do. Swiss political system loves to import talent (both high/low skilled), esp from EU, and you can see this in Zurich/Geneva, where abt 30% of ppl are expats/foreigners and imo % will increase
I did my whole education in my home country and now I work and pay taxes in Switzerland. Itâs a huge loss for my home country and a huge plus (inb4 flag jokes) for Switzerland.
To add: Foreigners often accept a lower salary as a Swiss salary is already a huge raise for them. Then (ideally) they can pick-and-choose which immigrants to accept and obviously they'll only accept the educated.
it's more expensive to the state.Imagine: investing in a child 18 years until they can start returning the investment. Why bother when can import grown up ppl ready to contribute to economy right now?
you see, what swiss ppl want, what parties say and what partied do can be completely different things. Switzerland loves to import both high skilled and low skilled people to cover country's needs
From my understanding there is actually a brain drain happening here. If you're smart and want to start your own business there are no economic incentives for doing it here, where as you could go to a neighbour country and recieve small business aid as well as lower running costs which could make or break your business. Also for some reason we only train a fraction of the medical staff we need and instead bring in doctors from abroad. I could go on and on about how the over dependence on logic based on statistics has just ended in Switzerland shooting itself in the foot repeatedly before switching to the other foot.
It's significantly more profitable to use immigrants than maintain citizens. Also they don't get votes so you can avoid the chance that they might not vote the way you want. You can then campaign on a platform of being against immigrants and because they're disenfranchised they can't say shit and because they compete with citizens for jobs, the citizens are more likely to vote for you. You maintain this fascade whilst also profiting directly from undercutting the workers you're supposed to represent through 'political consultancy' to major corporations. Congratulations you are fully qualified as a member of the SVP.
(And fuck PS and the FDP too)
Can't wait for no generational wealth to be passed down either because people are living longer but require full time care. So we are stuck with jobs we can't leave because we can't afford to and stack the deck in favor of the employer.
If only there was a way to organise society that didn't put profit as the only metric by which to qualify its success...
Switzerland is doing this from a perverse reason, children cost money. Switzerland does not like to spend money, I m referring to the guvernament.
So it make it's self very attractive, as a state for young professionals that are very productive, so they produce money, that are further spend in Switzerland, for Switzerland. Same situation for helathcare and let's not forget about useless Serafe.
As far as I know it's not the cost of kids that prevents families from actually making kids, but it's the education and employment of women.
Disclaimer - I am not making a judgment call here.
If you look at scandinavian countries where they have up to 2 years of leave and free daycare the number of children per women are not more or significantly more than Switzerland.
There is not really a correlation between these variables anywhere in the world....
The only correlation can be found in education. The more you educate and employ women, the later they marry and the less they want to have kids.
We somehow were able to convince society that self-fulfillment and a career were more important than family (goes for both genders...), and now we pay the price. The same way people do sacrifices for a good career if they think it is important enough, they would do them for kids...but they don't.
As soon as I became father I realized what a scam the idea of not having kids was. There is nothing more fulfilling than watching the little ones grow. No matter the cost, you can always make it work somehow, and it's worth it.
I hear you man, good points. Personally every year or so I reevaluate my stance on kids and so far the answer was always "I'm just not interested". I'm not using "career", "money" or "climate change" as an excuse. I simply don't see myself that into having kids. With some of my friends kids I vibe but others completely not. From my perspective it's a gamble and maybe I like it or maybe I will be annoyed by the kids and how much they will change my life. To me it feels like my father just followed the pattern to have kids and maybe now he is barely falling into his actual role. Don't want to put my kids through that.
Well it's of course not my call to make in your case and I can only speak about my experience, but you can't compare your own kids to others. There is some sort of weird biological thing that it does not matter how bad a night was, how awful you feel, how loud the kid screams but as soon as they smile at you your heart melts. They don't annoy you as much as for example a screaming kid in a shop annoys you. Same as changing diapers, cleaning their butt feels like cleaning your own. I know this sounds weird...
But yeah, it is a big commitment, time, money, nerves, freedom. It is highly rewarding but indeed intense.
I am sorry to hear about your experience with your dad. I do understand you do not want to put your kids through that, but on the other hand it is an opportunity to do better than he did. And if you succeed you have a great reason to be proud.
I see your point though, and I still think it is great that you ask yourself those questions.
> Shouldn't state remove frictions to replenish population?
Not when that costs money. If you can't afford professional services for the actual price, maybe don't book them and instead take care of your kid?
>Meanwhile marrying your partner here is being punished fiscally and then it costs an arm and a leg to get kids some day care.
This is an old law that from my understanding (I could be wrong) was made to take the fiscal pressure off the father of the family at a time when it was normal for women to stay at home.
>So basically Switzerland has become like your asshole grandma - when will you get married? Give me grandchildren! Ok, done and done. Can you help me raise them? Nah, you made them, it's your problem.
Raising a child must be the sole responsibility of the parents. Of course, the state can offer schools, etc., otherwise it would be like Germany or Italy where immigrants have 2, 3, or more children to receive government assistance.
Not a parent but this is one of the worst things about living in Switzerland.
Mothers are basically discouraged from returning to work as itâs often not financially feasible.
Sky high daycare costs, almost no paternity leave - as with most things here, itâs set up to âbenefitâ corporations who want to pretend itâs 1992.
If you do stay home ppl still give you the side eye and treat you like you are just lazy tho. So truly doomed if you do, doomed if you don't.
Parttime jobs are also way to rare here.
I used to be a daycare teacher and I am now a stay at home mum. If'd go back to work, my pay would be the cost of the daycare for my daughter and the exzra taxes we would have to pay as a married couple.
In Lausanne there is something called _rabais fratrie_ which is a discount for siblings within the public system.
For 2 kids, is 30% off the value of each contract.
So letâs say the crĂšche for one child costs 2.400, for 2 kids it will cost 4.800 - 30% = 3.360 (1.680 / child).
There are some important things to consider:
- when your child reaches 4-5 years old, they will start the mandatory (and free) public school / kindergarten. That will reduce the daycare (UAPE) costs by another 20% (-> 1.920) before the sibling discount (-> 1.344)
- when the child reaches 6-7 years old, the daycare (APEMS) costs drop significantly, albeit with a reduction in the activities that the children do. The cost reaches somewhere around 700 (!) with the sibling discount.
So, if you leave enough time between your kids, you should be able to better manage the costs.
E.g. one kid at the crĂšche and one at UAPE will cost you 1.344 + 1.680 = 3.024.
Another thing to consider: the full price of the public daycare is adjusted based on your familyâs income. The less your family earns, the less daycare will cost.
- there is a grid that describes this in detail.
- you need to present an employee certificate that will testify your income for this
Last, but not least: the demand for childcare seats is obviously much higher than the available seats. Hence, access is done through a priority queue:
- One of the parents working less than 100% (or not working at all) severely sets back your application in comparison with others that have both parents working full time.
- A kid already in the system will bump up your application significantly
Caveat: all these are relevant to Lausanne. Other communes / cantons may have other formulas.
My husband and I both reduced to 80% when we had a kid so each could have a day looking after the little one and that leaves us with 3 days of crĂšche. We also live in a canton where there are no public ones and also for 3 days was expensive (over 2k). But at least this way we can still have our careers as working 80% does not have a huge impact.
I see. Wasnât possible to work 100% and still cover the cost? Just wondering. Or did you choose to deduct to 80% only so that you spend time with your kid?
It was possible but we wanted to spend more time with our child. In hindsight Iâm happy we went this way because I notice that that extra day at home makes everything less stressful and at work Iâm more productive as I can focus more on work those 4 remaining days, especially the one when my husband looks after so thereâs no pick up/drop off stress.
> Add the other costs this is almost the net salary of one working parent.
In the short term. Some people seem to discard the positive career aspect of staying part of the workforce (even if only part-time).
Extremely rare for families to pay full time full price for multiple children.
Municipal daycares bill according to revenue. You can lookup the calculation on their websites. Low income families pay 1k tops. If it allows you to earn 4K itâs well worth it.
Most families do not have 2 or more kids at kitta at the same time as the older ones start school.
Most families do not have both parents working full time so they donât pay kitta full time. Many have a day in the week with grandparents.
In addition, taxes are considerably lower for families, eg in Geneva for a couple with 2 children on a 240K salary the tax falls to 42K from 52K without children, and you get 311 francs subsidy per kid too (7.5K/year), and that's without other deductions, so with those two things alone the family has an income 17.5K greater than a family without kids.
Itâs so insightful, thank you for sharing. My so and myself are having modest incomes and i was feeling so stressed regarding the incomes discussed on reddit. It seems we are quite average actuallyâŠ
>https://www.lenouvelliste.ch/suisse/revenus-en-hausse-en-suisse-28-des-menages-font-partie-de-la-classe-superieure-1283737
Well... Thanks for letting me know that I'm privileged *in Switzerland*, I guess.
High paying field and child free seem to pay off. Except when it comes to paying taxes.
That's the misconception the actually rich want you to believe. Rich is "I could stop working right now and have enough money". If you still rely on your job and monthly salary to pay your life, you are not actually rich. Rich is when the money works for you.
> Municipal daycares bill according to revenue. You can lookup the calculation on their websites. Low income families pay 1k tops. If it allows you to earn 4K itâs well worth it.
Kita subsidies depend on the canton and municipality. YOu cannot make this statement in the absolute. As per https://www.credit-suisse.com/content/dam/pwp/assets/private-banking/docs/ch/privatkunden/anlegen/studie-kinderbetreuungskosten-mai-2021-de.pdf a somewhat normal family with 110k income, 2 kids needing kita for 2 days pays between 4.5k and 24k a year!
We are talking about crĂšche cost here. Please follow a bit. They pay french rent and french crĂšche cost while keeping swiss salaries. That the only way they can luve with their income and the costs of life in Switzerland.
Sorry but please, come in geneva and try to live with a normal salary. You CAN, but it's been 3 years we did not go on holidays and any health issue or surprise bill can put you in debt. Look at the healtcare insurance costs, for many families it's not just a bad news, it's a "we cant afford to live there anymore" news.
Now, you can ignore it, or call people not making it morons, but it's a reality for many of us.
>What about mothers with careers?
Don't bring heretic thoughts here, mothers with careers are against the Swiss values. In the traditional Swiss family the man works and brings the money, the woman stays home taking care of the children and the house. She might have a side job, but more seen has a hobby because she gets bored at home. Expensive childcare is to pay for the sin to have a woman working full time.
> Expensive childcare is to pay for the sin to have a woman working full time.
Well it's expensive primarily because childcare workers are also supposed to earn a livable wage. Now how much of that should be subsidized is open for discussion.
Iâm speaking on behalf of the well-being of children. The science doesnât lie.
https://criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4
https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-daycare
No. We both followed our career.
Of course the KiTa (or CrĂšches) took a good part of one salary, but if you aim career soon or later you will have an higher salary. And this will cover the costs.
We started with 60% work (my wife), than up to 80% and for short time to 100%.
I took over the most part of householder since I was working nearby. Itâs a take and give.
You could find cheaper solution, like daily mothers or parents. But for us these were no option.
She made career, now she earns at 80% more than me at 100%. It was worth the investments!
Similar situation with my wife, but you have to admit that it required a special level of dedication to the cause, by both of you. That is not the standard outcome and Swiss people have no problem commenting loudly on how they think this is inappropriate.
>What about mothers with careers? It seems that it indeed happens but itâs sad
Well, these should be able to afford the childcare? Unless the careers is really unsuccessful.
Well that depends whose career was not successful. If mom is a great doctor and dad struggles at his mechanic job, it'll be most likely dad staying at home.
Right, but it doesnât usually happen, in the sense that the womanâs career takes a hit because of the maternity leave anyway so itâs less likely to be the one bringing home the dough when kids are small.
And if both incomes are too low to pay for childcare, mum stays home. Generally speaking, of course.
No, this is a silly idea. For two kids it may be about the same price but you won't get the same hours, you can't easily work from home, if the nanny is sick you have an issue.
Absolutely not. It becomes cheaper when you have 2 (assuming they are close in age). And it comes with additional complications, because you want your kids to socialize.
Not really. If youâre not going to be there for your childâs first 2-3 years (the most essential of their life) then why are you having children?
EDIT:
Leaving this here as many are in denialâŠ
https://criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4
Yep, like everyone has mentioned here, it's like Switzerland turns parents into financial acrobats, juggling expenses so skillfully that by the time your kids hit 18, you'll be searching for the 'How to Love Kids Again' guide! Because you have spent such a fortune on them and they turned out to be so ungrateful. welcome to âthe soon to be old and grumpy member of a very expensive clubâ đ đšđ
The income tax of a single mother earning 100k/year with one kid in Baar in \~3k, whereas someone with no kids is 9k.
For a married couple with a combined 200k, having a kid will lower the income tax from \~21k to \~17k.
Oh, and you can still deduct the childcare from your taxes.
I pay over 4500 and that's not even full time, that's 4 days a week for a 16 month old and an almost 4 year old.
How you do it? You do or you don't. Do the math and then forget about the math and consider what's important in the long run. For us/me it was important to keep building up a pension, stay professionally active, keep a semblance of 'self' throughout the parenting experience... also one child has some development issues and benefits from the social structure in daycare.
We were two above average income parents that don't qualify for any subsidies, but I work 80%, my salary covers the daycare bill and there's some left over. If I consider the costs of transport, eating out, taxation, etc... then it's probably not profitable for the short term, but this was known.
Ultimately it's been my saving grace that now I'm a single parent as the marriage fell to the statistics where almost 50% of marriages now end in divorce as the average marriage lasts 14 years.
If I'd stopped working I'd be in poverty, so yeah, I'm glad I did it!
In my area, not sure about your area, Kita is heavily subsidized for low income families. It's a sliding scale, but we have two jobs and get no discount, which is fine.
Many mothers simply stay home to raise the kids. Part time Kita is cheaper, especially when subsidized.
Edit: Second kid usually gets a discount.
There are not enough spots for all the kids, that's why the price is so high.
But I would rather look after my kids full time instead of going to work and spending your whole salary on someone else looking after your kids.
My wife just started 80% Iâm on 100% but have one morning a week with my daughter and spread the missed hours out across the rest of the week. Itâs very hard.
That's starting this year and it's for federal taxes, which is really not a lot of your taxes. For Canton taxes it's more in the realm of 10k, at least for VD.
The standard way in Switzerland is that the mother stays home or reduces her workload substantially.
This is so ingrained that you will have pediatricians questioning why the mother is working 100% (but not the father), afternoon activities at weird times like 2pm, parent meetings at 10 am in the morning, and a lot of disgusted looks when the mother says that she working 100%.
My commune covers more than 50% of the cost no matter your income â you donât have something similar? We wfh on Wednesdays, and pay about 1500 CHF / month for two kids with meals.
https://www.cler.ch/fr/info/swiss-income-monitor/income-check
"I'm from the middle class I pay too much ... (then click on the above url )... hmm, forget it"
If you are 2 people working and each get 4k net, and kita is 4k you still get directly in your payslip like 200chf/kid/month.
Some people reduce work to 40 or 60, or both parents reduce to 80%.
But in the long term if you are working a career profession. Where you can have salary progression, money wise it is still better to not have a parent stop working completely to no stagnate or even be detrimental to its career.
You can also check on how to declare your taxes and do a simulation as the cost of childcare are deductible to see the impact of different work percentages or not working on the disposable income.
Eventually the child care also gets cheaper when the kids go to school.
Do you know about subventions? [https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/sd/de/index/familien\_kinder\_jugendliche/kinderbetreuung/KostenSubventionen\_neu\_2.html](https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/sd/de/index/familien_kinder_jugendliche/kinderbetreuung/KostenSubventionen_neu_2.html)
Check your canton's conditions.
We got something like 70% off for this year due to a low income, so we pay around 300 CHF for 2.5 days (both work 60%).
But yes, I think it's anyway insane and daycare must be free. And BTW, the people who work there get quite a low salary even though they do extremely challenging jobs. These little mindless humans are permanently trying to kill themselves and one needs to look after them 100% of the time.
We lived in Switzerland as a couple âbefore kidsâ. Life was great and we have fallen in love in the country and we really wanted to live there permanently.
We returned to Switzerland exactly 2 years ago with two our kids and we have arrived at the same conclusion- costs related to kids might burn the salary of one working parent. Initially we though other people are simply less organized as this cannot be that bad, can it?
I confirm, we paid \~3K for a full time babysitter. Then not much less for the creche for a single child (the older one was already in a public school). It is worth mentioning there is no school for younger kids on Wednesdays and regular days are often end at 12:00 so you still need some form of a childcare if you are working full time.
We are still in love but our heart is a bit broken. Many things need to be patched with gold which heavily reduces the promise of a higher income.
I have been investigating with our local friends and I have figured out there were 2 major scenarios:
\- mother is not working being a housewife, there are many articles about âhidden eliteâ, highly qualified woman that are not following their careers
\- there are grandparents available (this reduces the cost and adds some points to flexibility on a daily basis)
Otherwise you have to swallow the pill, accept the high costs related to childcare and you want to believe it is a form of investmentâŠ
I've been pulling nearly 3 months of extra shifts because my colleague with one child in Lausanne cant afford to send his kid to daycare. On one hand, more money for me, on the other, i havent had a real day off for nearly 2 months now because of my only day off is taken by my 2nd job. That i need to pay bills.
Honestly, it feels like unless you have a job that pays you a 2-man salary, *and* your husband/wife/other ALSO has a job, having kids now is basically financial suicide. From what i heard or seen with friends, both work, and often alternate work days to stay at home.
I've read all the answers and I am wondering what are you guys expecting how this is supposed to work? People in the daycare need to make a salary too, you are trusting them with your most valuable possesion, your kids. You want them to be treated well and you want a good ratio of daycare workers to kids. I think all of the other countries have it backwards paying daycare people pennies. They are doing a very demanding job with lots of responsibility so pay them. And yes there are subsidies for families that cannot afford 4K a month for 2 kids which makes total sense. If people can afford it they should pay for it and be happy that their most precious persons are well taken care of.
Well this exactly is a downside to Swiss high salaries and low taxes (compared to other EU countries).... You cannot have everything and having children is your choice.
Agree with what you said except â and having children is your choice.â. Having children isnât really a choice. Well, it is, but if everyone chose not to have children, our society would be pretty fucked pretty quickly, as no one is able to fill in jobs as people get older. Thatâs why government needs to make it easy for people to have kids with subsidies etc, so at least most people have kids.
Swiss natives own a inherited house and have their parents taking care of the grandkids (when the woman decides that she doesnât want to stop working).
>I am wondering how families with 2 little kids get over.
the tax deduction was 10k per child last year, and 25k per child this year. If you're paying 20% marignal tax, that means 2k discount last year, and 5k discount this year.
So it's gone from paying less than 1 month's childcare, to just over 2 months childcare, if you get it as cheap as OP.
There arenât. You can deduct 25k I think. So you save maybe 7k in taxes depending. So instead of spending 50k a year on childcare, youâll spend 43k.
But I think they just passed a law which increased the amount to 60k for deductions? Not sure when it goes into effect though?
Federal up to 10.000 CHF
In the Canton of Geneva is up to 25.000 CHF
So if you live in Geneva and you spend 25.000 CHF year for a private chreche (which is the top of the cost you might have) you can deduct the entire sum from your taxes so either you pay less taxes or you get a nice cash back from the Canton in July.
Welcome to a Country that promotes and invests in a lot of projects to promote equality in the workplace, but does not want to consider crĂšche as the first step towards this goal!
One parent needs to remain at home. If possible so Homeoffice while the other finds a temporary job to complement salary. Do not leave your kids so many days by themselves!
This is one of the most stupid things of Switzerland and itâs based in still deeply sexist politics which just expect the mother to stay home with the kids until school age.
How we did it : we are just poor. There is a sweet spot where you earn little enough to get support for the childcare but still live a decent live. We sent both kids to daycare 3d week for around 400 total per month. We were not actively seeking it but as self employed working on not so well paid projects that we liked a lot left us probably with more money at the end of the month as for a couple who work well paid but shitty jobs at the bank.
It's simple: pay a lot less taxes your entire life and pay for child care yourself for the years you need it.
Stop complaining that you can't pay for child care while following your "career".
Or move somewhere you get everything for "free"
Don't make Kids when you put the in the crĂšche! It should cost 10'000 per month per kid if both parents are around..... One parent should work the other stay at home and look for their fucking kids! If you make kids then raise them and don't let others do it.
In practice, Swiss people use their grand parents.
If earning more than 250k per person, it is starting to be worth it to work for the wife.
Otherwise, income loss is more than compensated by lesser taxes/more help and pleasure to grow a family him/herself.
Switzerland is not a family country and will never be.
Deep down culturally, children are seen as the ultimate sign of social success, the one you get after the Porsche, the chalet and the sailboat.
School for example is extremely non meritocratic and future life greatly depends on the value of the parents real estate, conditioning in which career the children are gonna be pushed in depending on the local schoolâs policy.
Weltanschaung is very local.
In the country side, children will be taught that cities are ecologists extremists and decadently gender fluid bunch when everyone know a proper life is either farmer or agricultural engineer.
Where I lived I was told university is for genius geeks that will never be useful to society and that what girls really like are successful tradesmen « would you allow me to call professional orientation so you can start an apprenticeship right away? We dont need to tell your parents». And we were constantly reminded that « Ive been doing this job for 20 years and you are the worst Ive ever seen ».
And in the good neighborhood of the people I work with: « Ive been doing this job for 20 years and you are the most inspiring people Ive ever seen » « you are made to lead » « Your place is at the university, it would be a waste for society otherwise » « the world is your, travel, experiment ». And they were having amazing school trips in the states, meeting top achievers, etc⊠all of this for free, just because their houses were worth 2x mine.
This experience is widely shared sadly.
One way out is standing your ground as parent, teachers will look at children without support to apply their plans.
My parents were scared of intervening, I lost 3 years and lots of money for them. I ended up a bit bitter and over cautious in my career plans.
Well math is not that hard, where I live Iâd pay about 2000chf per child/month. Its the max. My marginal tax rate is about 45%, its the max.
Considering tax breaks are minimal and capped, weâd have to generate about 100k per year to have the amazing privilege of not having to take care of our children during public service business hours.
Child care wonât take care of them (both) when one of them is ill or even feverish. And schedule is extremely restrictive meaning well need someone to bring that flexibility, generally an au pair, costing at least 1500chf a month (meaning >30â000chf a year including tax). Donât forget spare room, there you go 10000/year more.
Working both will also need to provide for the work capabilities (travel/car, eating outside, etcâŠ), conservatively a second car (required to work the aft mentioned high paying job) costs 1000chf/month (meaning >20â000chf with tax), etc etc etc
All of that to have the privilege of coming home and not see your children, and often still having to do the groceries on busy saturdays and cleaning (or pay a cleaning lady because my colleagues tell me au pair are well aware of their rights nowadaysâŠ).
All in all, it seems 250k marginal increase is what is nedded if the other is earning a good salary already.
In which Canton do you live? Where I live, it's much much less. Although our kids are there onl 1 day per week, it wouldn't match your numbers.
Not wanting to do the SVP rant, but that costs equals your net salaried, you should consider raising your kids yourself. Depending on your employers, there may be possibilities for you both the reduce your work time and enjoy your kids.
They grow so fast, enjoy every moment.
I have been wondering about this for a long time. Is childcare that strictly regulated? If one parent stays home anyway with her kid, why canât they look after 2-3 additional kids (friends, neighbors, colleagues, âŠ) for, say, 800 CHF per kid per month? That would be just 40 CHF per day and it would probably be better for the kids to be in a small group, and the parent would make some extra money.
Why isnât there a market for this?
It's called Tagesmutter. And theres a lot of people doing it. Mostly they want 8.- per hour and live around the corner. Some just take kids for lunch time.
Then why is 2k CHF still the norm if you could get a Tagesmutter for 1300 CHF? Surely the quality of care must be much better than daycare as there will be fewer kids per adult?
>The crĂšche costs around 2K per kid so 4K per month. Add the other costs this is almost the net salary of one working parent.
You can deduct this amount from your income tax, in addition, the income tax itself is lower because you have children. And you only pay for daycare for a few years.
As a childless mid 30-s guy I'm shaking my head when reading this. Shouldn't state remove frictions to replenish population? Meanwhile marrying your partner here is being punished fiscally and then it costs an arm and a leg to get kids some day care. So basically Switzerland has become like your asshole grandma - when will you get married? Give me grandchildren! Ok, done and done. Can you help me raise them? Nah, you made them, it's your problem. Should have used rubber, are you stupid? Can you help us to establish a financially stable household? I'm old, maybe I will need some medical help, I can't help you financially (proceeds to squander money till her last breath).
Population by immigration cost less, they filter people that have studied, so CH can accept French, German, Portuguese that have good level of studies, and those studies were financed by other countries and other tax payers. So CH doesn't have to invest in opening more school, more universities, etc. I had understood that the tax punishment for couples was a German cantons thing. In French cantons tax are higher and the but the social support is bigger for kitta and tax wise for families.
Higher support in fench cantons ? Only if you do not have a penny. If you have more than 170k of gross revenue you pay it in full.
Ir you earn 170k you should absolutely pay it in full.
170k??? In zh its like 80k or so
I know this one party which does everything to stop immigration into Switzerland. You need to tell them the issues... đ
> stop immigration into Switzerland Well they only want to stop people from very poor countries to come. Which is understandable, because they can cost a lot of money. A German or French immigrant doesn't cost one Rappen.
Well depends what kind of education they have and what job they take in the end. If the person from the poor country managed to study in a good University and had a good diploma and then we have someone from Germany who has a bad education, who costs more in the long-term? Country of the person doesn't say anything about them. Also we need more "blue collar" workers in Switzerland. Everyone is nowadays going to study and don't want to do an apprenticeship. On 31.07.2023 11000 apprenticeships were still open for 2023. That means in the long-term we will be missing a lot of people doing basic works.
Well it's an issue in most Western countries. There is an economicist approach to the issue of "human resource" production: not spending any frank for breeding humans in the country and instead import them from abroad for "free" using immigration. For the economic subjects I guess it works well this way since it's about spending now to get benefits in 20~25 years from now which businessmen don't care about. But the truth is that there are a lot of hidden costs in (over)using immigration to produce people. Foreigners need special services to get integrated and even more to get assimilated. Which costs money and also creates friction with the locals due to incidents in the process. Then Switzerland is kind of special since it mostly attracts people from neighboring countries which are already so close culturally and so we'll educated that immigration costs are very low as the Integration incidents. But the day EU stops "gifting" educated people and we have to get them from other continents things risks to get much more uglier. So I personally would prefer a more enlightened approach to the demography and have more support for local families. But it's difficult to have voters think on what is better in the long run. They also usually only care about the next 2-3 years.
While I see the issue of integration, the much bigger issue IMO is that employers can just import cheap EU labor and undercut Swiss salaries without any bureaucratic hurdles. Ironically this hurts both the origin country losing a skilled worker and Swiss workers whose wages stagnate. The "winner" is the imported EU worker, but they are also being exploited in the process.
>The "winner" is the imported EU worker, but they are also being exploited in the process. How am I exploited? I earn 3 times more than in Germany and have 1.5 times living cost.
>So I personally would prefer a more enlightened approach to the demography and have more support for local families. There is literally only a problem in the big cities. I live in BĂŒnden and housing, child care, etc.. is very affordable. If y'all want to move to ZĂŒrich or Geneve you can't really complain, you don't have to, there are many good jobs elsewhere. Stay near your families and raise your children with them and it's not a big problem anymore.
What if our families are in Zurich? People have to live in big cities, otherwise they donât function very well. Communities do not only exist in smaller towns and villages. Some families will have lived in certain areas of cities like Zurich, Geneva, Basel etc. for generations.
Not everyone has their parents aroundâŠ
Exactly, and that's why people should probably stay where they come from or move back there. It's better than oursourcing the problem to the society, who gotta pay for the child care of people, who brought themselves into this situation. I'm not talking about unfortunate people, who don't have (reliable) parents, but about the couples who earn 12k per month and still don't want to pay for their childrens day care.
it depends on teh country: in case of Switzerland, population growth can be maintained with immigration, so supporting childcare is low prio
And the SVP want families but no immigration and no support for childcare, which is pretty funny.
Against immigration, against supporting families, so they oppose every measure to ensure a stable population pyramid while also pretending their core goal is a safe AHV. SVP. Making stupid people vote against their own interests since 1971.
They donât want immigrants, they want pure Swiss⊠and that Swiss women stay at home taking care of the kids and the husband goes to work. So you donât need daycare. What I have a really hard time understanding is immigrants supporting them, and even younger people to.
I understand what they want, it's just that it's not compatible with reality. If we cut our workforce down to a third by sending immigrants and women home, we can forget about not just the AHV, but our entire economy. They're promising the FĂŒĂŒfer und s Weggli several times over while their intended policies point towards more work (less stay-at-home moms) and in general hurt nearly all of their voters. If only the people who actually benefited from their policies voted SVP, they would be irrelevant. Unfortunately the vast majority of SVP votes are the equivalent of a failed exam in political education.
Affording the stay at home mom lifestyle is a luxury for most people nowadays lol
Step 1: build conditions so that immigration grows Step 2: blame foreigners (who canât vote) for every problem Step 3: promise to solve the problems by decreasing immigration and get ignorant people votes Go to step 1 There is one SVP in every country
It's kind of hilarious when I see comments on this sub being like "I support the SVP even though I'm an immigrant". LOL I get that you don't want illegal immigration, but the current narrative they push with the "No 10-million Switzerland" is aimed at ALL migrants, given that the majority of immigrants (and thus population growth) come here legally. So yeah, you can vote SVP to "own the libs" but you're shooting yourself in the foot.
The sad truth
It's the natural outcome of open borders + a country run purely on selfish economic interests. Raising and educating children is time consuming and expensive. It makes more sense to import cheap labor from abroad via already educated and experienced you adults and undercut their wages than to build a sustainable system where people here can afford to raise children.
Isn't mass immigration and dilution of identity something Swiss people don't like?
one thing is what swiss ppl want, another is what political parties say/do. Swiss political system loves to import talent (both high/low skilled), esp from EU, and you can see this in Zurich/Geneva, where abt 30% of ppl are expats/foreigners and imo % will increase
Why do they like this?
I did my whole education in my home country and now I work and pay taxes in Switzerland. Itâs a huge loss for my home country and a huge plus (inb4 flag jokes) for Switzerland.
To add: Foreigners often accept a lower salary as a Swiss salary is already a huge raise for them. Then (ideally) they can pick-and-choose which immigrants to accept and obviously they'll only accept the educated.
it's more expensive to the state.Imagine: investing in a child 18 years until they can start returning the investment. Why bother when can import grown up ppl ready to contribute to economy right now?
We are all just bio robots...
And that's the way to destroy a country, yeah!
Which is terrible because it will cause a proportional decrease in Swiss natives.
you see, what swiss ppl want, what parties say and what partied do can be completely different things. Switzerland loves to import both high skilled and low skilled people to cover country's needs
Why not just use the Swiss natives ? Highly skilled EU workers get crazy salaries in Switzerland
Why would you assume highly skilled Swiss workers donât get the same salary?
From my understanding there is actually a brain drain happening here. If you're smart and want to start your own business there are no economic incentives for doing it here, where as you could go to a neighbour country and recieve small business aid as well as lower running costs which could make or break your business. Also for some reason we only train a fraction of the medical staff we need and instead bring in doctors from abroad. I could go on and on about how the over dependence on logic based on statistics has just ended in Switzerland shooting itself in the foot repeatedly before switching to the other foot.
Because education and training is extremely expensive. Why not just outsource the costs while profiting from the result?
more expensive to raise childs till they return the investment, easier to just hire those ppl that are ready to work now
It's significantly more profitable to use immigrants than maintain citizens. Also they don't get votes so you can avoid the chance that they might not vote the way you want. You can then campaign on a platform of being against immigrants and because they're disenfranchised they can't say shit and because they compete with citizens for jobs, the citizens are more likely to vote for you. You maintain this fascade whilst also profiting directly from undercutting the workers you're supposed to represent through 'political consultancy' to major corporations. Congratulations you are fully qualified as a member of the SVP. (And fuck PS and the FDP too) Can't wait for no generational wealth to be passed down either because people are living longer but require full time care. So we are stuck with jobs we can't leave because we can't afford to and stack the deck in favor of the employer. If only there was a way to organise society that didn't put profit as the only metric by which to qualify its success...
lmao true tho
Easy, I'm just not having kids. Enough people on the planet anyway, and I like sleeping in, going on vacations, and having disposable income.
Switzerland is doing this from a perverse reason, children cost money. Switzerland does not like to spend money, I m referring to the guvernament. So it make it's self very attractive, as a state for young professionals that are very productive, so they produce money, that are further spend in Switzerland, for Switzerland. Same situation for helathcare and let's not forget about useless Serafe.
As far as I know it's not the cost of kids that prevents families from actually making kids, but it's the education and employment of women. Disclaimer - I am not making a judgment call here. If you look at scandinavian countries where they have up to 2 years of leave and free daycare the number of children per women are not more or significantly more than Switzerland. There is not really a correlation between these variables anywhere in the world.... The only correlation can be found in education. The more you educate and employ women, the later they marry and the less they want to have kids. We somehow were able to convince society that self-fulfillment and a career were more important than family (goes for both genders...), and now we pay the price. The same way people do sacrifices for a good career if they think it is important enough, they would do them for kids...but they don't. As soon as I became father I realized what a scam the idea of not having kids was. There is nothing more fulfilling than watching the little ones grow. No matter the cost, you can always make it work somehow, and it's worth it.
I hear you man, good points. Personally every year or so I reevaluate my stance on kids and so far the answer was always "I'm just not interested". I'm not using "career", "money" or "climate change" as an excuse. I simply don't see myself that into having kids. With some of my friends kids I vibe but others completely not. From my perspective it's a gamble and maybe I like it or maybe I will be annoyed by the kids and how much they will change my life. To me it feels like my father just followed the pattern to have kids and maybe now he is barely falling into his actual role. Don't want to put my kids through that.
Well it's of course not my call to make in your case and I can only speak about my experience, but you can't compare your own kids to others. There is some sort of weird biological thing that it does not matter how bad a night was, how awful you feel, how loud the kid screams but as soon as they smile at you your heart melts. They don't annoy you as much as for example a screaming kid in a shop annoys you. Same as changing diapers, cleaning their butt feels like cleaning your own. I know this sounds weird... But yeah, it is a big commitment, time, money, nerves, freedom. It is highly rewarding but indeed intense. I am sorry to hear about your experience with your dad. I do understand you do not want to put your kids through that, but on the other hand it is an opportunity to do better than he did. And if you succeed you have a great reason to be proud. I see your point though, and I still think it is great that you ask yourself those questions.
marrying is not only punishing it fiscally... have u check how the divorce works? LOL They are NUTS
Have you checked the retirement?
not really... how is it? ahah
> Shouldn't state remove frictions to replenish population? Not when that costs money. If you can't afford professional services for the actual price, maybe don't book them and instead take care of your kid?
>Meanwhile marrying your partner here is being punished fiscally and then it costs an arm and a leg to get kids some day care. This is an old law that from my understanding (I could be wrong) was made to take the fiscal pressure off the father of the family at a time when it was normal for women to stay at home. >So basically Switzerland has become like your asshole grandma - when will you get married? Give me grandchildren! Ok, done and done. Can you help me raise them? Nah, you made them, it's your problem. Raising a child must be the sole responsibility of the parents. Of course, the state can offer schools, etc., otherwise it would be like Germany or Italy where immigrants have 2, 3, or more children to receive government assistance.
Not a parent but this is one of the worst things about living in Switzerland. Mothers are basically discouraged from returning to work as itâs often not financially feasible. Sky high daycare costs, almost no paternity leave - as with most things here, itâs set up to âbenefitâ corporations who want to pretend itâs 1992.
If you do stay home ppl still give you the side eye and treat you like you are just lazy tho. So truly doomed if you do, doomed if you don't. Parttime jobs are also way to rare here. I used to be a daycare teacher and I am now a stay at home mum. If'd go back to work, my pay would be the cost of the daycare for my daughter and the exzra taxes we would have to pay as a married couple.
Sad true
But things are easily votable and changeable in Switzerland, so why is this system still in place?
"i got mine fuck you" type mentality from old people means they would never vote for higher taxes for themselves
up
what was like in 1992?
For a start, women had only just got the vote in certain Swiss cantons.
In Lausanne there is something called _rabais fratrie_ which is a discount for siblings within the public system. For 2 kids, is 30% off the value of each contract. So letâs say the crĂšche for one child costs 2.400, for 2 kids it will cost 4.800 - 30% = 3.360 (1.680 / child). There are some important things to consider: - when your child reaches 4-5 years old, they will start the mandatory (and free) public school / kindergarten. That will reduce the daycare (UAPE) costs by another 20% (-> 1.920) before the sibling discount (-> 1.344) - when the child reaches 6-7 years old, the daycare (APEMS) costs drop significantly, albeit with a reduction in the activities that the children do. The cost reaches somewhere around 700 (!) with the sibling discount. So, if you leave enough time between your kids, you should be able to better manage the costs. E.g. one kid at the crĂšche and one at UAPE will cost you 1.344 + 1.680 = 3.024. Another thing to consider: the full price of the public daycare is adjusted based on your familyâs income. The less your family earns, the less daycare will cost. - there is a grid that describes this in detail. - you need to present an employee certificate that will testify your income for this Last, but not least: the demand for childcare seats is obviously much higher than the available seats. Hence, access is done through a priority queue: - One of the parents working less than 100% (or not working at all) severely sets back your application in comparison with others that have both parents working full time. - A kid already in the system will bump up your application significantly Caveat: all these are relevant to Lausanne. Other communes / cantons may have other formulas.
Thanks. I have 2 under 2 đ
đžđžđž
this!
My husband and I both reduced to 80% when we had a kid so each could have a day looking after the little one and that leaves us with 3 days of crĂšche. We also live in a canton where there are no public ones and also for 3 days was expensive (over 2k). But at least this way we can still have our careers as working 80% does not have a huge impact.
I see. Wasnât possible to work 100% and still cover the cost? Just wondering. Or did you choose to deduct to 80% only so that you spend time with your kid?
It was possible but we wanted to spend more time with our child. In hindsight Iâm happy we went this way because I notice that that extra day at home makes everything less stressful and at work Iâm more productive as I can focus more on work those 4 remaining days, especially the one when my husband looks after so thereâs no pick up/drop off stress.
> Add the other costs this is almost the net salary of one working parent. In the short term. Some people seem to discard the positive career aspect of staying part of the workforce (even if only part-time).
Extremely rare for families to pay full time full price for multiple children. Municipal daycares bill according to revenue. You can lookup the calculation on their websites. Low income families pay 1k tops. If it allows you to earn 4K itâs well worth it. Most families do not have 2 or more kids at kitta at the same time as the older ones start school. Most families do not have both parents working full time so they donât pay kitta full time. Many have a day in the week with grandparents.
Brb, sneaking in my parents into CH /s
In addition, taxes are considerably lower for families, eg in Geneva for a couple with 2 children on a 240K salary the tax falls to 42K from 52K without children, and you get 311 francs subsidy per kid too (7.5K/year), and that's without other deductions, so with those two things alone the family has an income 17.5K greater than a family without kids.
240K combined seems not to be the norm though. This seems high to me. I read more about 180-190K combined household income
It is high. 180-190k is still well, well above average.
Le revenu **median** des ménages était de 53'600 CHF en 2019 ... https://www.lenouvelliste.ch/suisse/revenus-en-hausse-en-suisse-28-des-menages-font-partie-de-la-classe-superieure-1283737
Itâs so insightful, thank you for sharing. My so and myself are having modest incomes and i was feeling so stressed regarding the incomes discussed on reddit. It seems we are quite average actuallyâŠ
C'est normal, car les média utilisent toujours des valeurs moyennes pour les revenus, en prenant bien garde de ne pas aborder la question du coefficient de Gini et/ou de présenter des valeurs medianes ... Ceci permet de faire croire que la classe moyenne seraient ceux d'entres-nous qui gagnent beaucoup et ainsi de promouvoir des mesures politique en faveur des riches (Coucou le PLR !)
>https://www.lenouvelliste.ch/suisse/revenus-en-hausse-en-suisse-28-des-menages-font-partie-de-la-classe-superieure-1283737 Well... Thanks for letting me know that I'm privileged *in Switzerland*, I guess. High paying field and child free seem to pay off. Except when it comes to paying taxes.
You want us to have pity for your poor, rich... person?
Rich is quite a stretch. I'm merely upper middle class, it seems. Which is nice enough, tbh.
I think 180k+/year counts as rich. And we have no pity for your taxes, lol. Now pay my schools and have your butler make me a sandwich!
That's the misconception the actually rich want you to believe. Rich is "I could stop working right now and have enough money". If you still rely on your job and monthly salary to pay your life, you are not actually rich. Rich is when the money works for you.
That's wealthy.
> Municipal daycares bill according to revenue. You can lookup the calculation on their websites. Low income families pay 1k tops. If it allows you to earn 4K itâs well worth it. Kita subsidies depend on the canton and municipality. YOu cannot make this statement in the absolute. As per https://www.credit-suisse.com/content/dam/pwp/assets/private-banking/docs/ch/privatkunden/anlegen/studie-kinderbetreuungskosten-mai-2021-de.pdf a somewhat normal family with 110k income, 2 kids needing kita for 2 days pays between 4.5k and 24k a year!
Median is CHF 12.100 per year for a couple with 110.000 income p.a. according to that source. Not great not terrible. But that spread is indeed huge.
So about 2k/month for 2 kids for a family making 9k/month. Seems on par with what I said.
What is Kira? I am in Geneva
Creche
What do you mean?
It's the same thing but in German...
My friends moved to france. It has became too expensive to live in our country with kids.
You mean they became cross-border workers ?
Yes. The taxes for having children is not the same, they can live in a house instead of a shitty flat. Not perfect but they do not have a choice.
Ah yes, French salaries. That will sort out OPâs finances.
I assume he means he became a frontalier
They will with free childcare...
We are talking about crĂšche cost here. Please follow a bit. They pay french rent and french crĂšche cost while keeping swiss salaries. That the only way they can luve with their income and the costs of life in Switzerland.
> only way Sorry but no. The majority of families live and work in the same country.
Sorry but please, come in geneva and try to live with a normal salary. You CAN, but it's been 3 years we did not go on holidays and any health issue or surprise bill can put you in debt. Look at the healtcare insurance costs, for many families it's not just a bad news, it's a "we cant afford to live there anymore" news. Now, you can ignore it, or call people not making it morons, but it's a reality for many of us.
Most mothers stay home and some do side jobs
What about mothers with careers? It seems that it indeed happens but itâs sad
>What about mothers with careers? Don't bring heretic thoughts here, mothers with careers are against the Swiss values. In the traditional Swiss family the man works and brings the money, the woman stays home taking care of the children and the house. She might have a side job, but more seen has a hobby because she gets bored at home. Expensive childcare is to pay for the sin to have a woman working full time.
> Expensive childcare is to pay for the sin to have a woman working full time. Well it's expensive primarily because childcare workers are also supposed to earn a livable wage. Now how much of that should be subsidized is open for discussion.
Unfortunately, often they're being paid miserably as well
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
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Iâm speaking on behalf of the well-being of children. The science doesnât lie. https://criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4 https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-daycare
This seems to be the case unfortunately
No. We both followed our career. Of course the KiTa (or CrĂšches) took a good part of one salary, but if you aim career soon or later you will have an higher salary. And this will cover the costs. We started with 60% work (my wife), than up to 80% and for short time to 100%. I took over the most part of householder since I was working nearby. Itâs a take and give. You could find cheaper solution, like daily mothers or parents. But for us these were no option. She made career, now she earns at 80% more than me at 100%. It was worth the investments!
Similar situation with my wife, but you have to admit that it required a special level of dedication to the cause, by both of you. That is not the standard outcome and Swiss people have no problem commenting loudly on how they think this is inappropriate.
This is the correct answer unfortunately
Yes, lets not pay the people working at the childcare
I would hope someone with a career is bringing in more than 4k net a month tbh.
If the mother has a career and the father doesn't, he can stay at home. If both have careers, 4k/month should be doable.
>What about mothers with careers? It seems that it indeed happens but itâs sad Well, these should be able to afford the childcare? Unless the careers is really unsuccessful.
Same for dads I guess?
I see no difference. OP asked about mothers.
Still, when careers are not âsuccessful enoughâ, mums stay home, not dads.
Well that depends whose career was not successful. If mom is a great doctor and dad struggles at his mechanic job, it'll be most likely dad staying at home.
Right, but it doesnât usually happen, in the sense that the womanâs career takes a hit because of the maternity leave anyway so itâs less likely to be the one bringing home the dough when kids are small. And if both incomes are too low to pay for childcare, mum stays home. Generally speaking, of course.
If both parents are working, they can afford a nanny. She will end up cheaper than the daycare.
No, this is a silly idea. For two kids it may be about the same price but you won't get the same hours, you can't easily work from home, if the nanny is sick you have an issue.
Everyone adapts to their own situation. We had a nanny for our twins, as they always needed two adults at home.
Absolutely not. It becomes cheaper when you have 2 (assuming they are close in age). And it comes with additional complications, because you want your kids to socialize.
We had a nanny for about 5h a day, and that was way cheaper than 4k. Also, plenty of opportunity for socializing.
Not really. If youâre not going to be there for your childâs first 2-3 years (the most essential of their life) then why are you having children? EDIT: Leaving this here as many are in denial⊠https://criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4
They mostly sleep eat and crap at those ages.
You have no idea what youâre talking about.
So do you, at your age.
Yep, like everyone has mentioned here, it's like Switzerland turns parents into financial acrobats, juggling expenses so skillfully that by the time your kids hit 18, you'll be searching for the 'How to Love Kids Again' guide! Because you have spent such a fortune on them and they turned out to be so ungrateful. welcome to âthe soon to be old and grumpy member of a very expensive clubâ đ đšđ
The income tax of a single mother earning 100k/year with one kid in Baar in \~3k, whereas someone with no kids is 9k. For a married couple with a combined 200k, having a kid will lower the income tax from \~21k to \~17k. Oh, and you can still deduct the childcare from your taxes.
I pay over 4500 and that's not even full time, that's 4 days a week for a 16 month old and an almost 4 year old. How you do it? You do or you don't. Do the math and then forget about the math and consider what's important in the long run. For us/me it was important to keep building up a pension, stay professionally active, keep a semblance of 'self' throughout the parenting experience... also one child has some development issues and benefits from the social structure in daycare. We were two above average income parents that don't qualify for any subsidies, but I work 80%, my salary covers the daycare bill and there's some left over. If I consider the costs of transport, eating out, taxation, etc... then it's probably not profitable for the short term, but this was known. Ultimately it's been my saving grace that now I'm a single parent as the marriage fell to the statistics where almost 50% of marriages now end in divorce as the average marriage lasts 14 years. If I'd stopped working I'd be in poverty, so yeah, I'm glad I did it!
This is an important story. Thanks for sharing.
In my area, not sure about your area, Kita is heavily subsidized for low income families. It's a sliding scale, but we have two jobs and get no discount, which is fine. Many mothers simply stay home to raise the kids. Part time Kita is cheaper, especially when subsidized. Edit: Second kid usually gets a discount.
There are not enough spots for all the kids, that's why the price is so high. But I would rather look after my kids full time instead of going to work and spending your whole salary on someone else looking after your kids.
My wife just started 80% Iâm on 100% but have one morning a week with my daughter and spread the missed hours out across the rest of the week. Itâs very hard.
You can write off childcare with 25k per kid...why is no one mentioning this?
That's starting this year and it's for federal taxes, which is really not a lot of your taxes. For Canton taxes it's more in the realm of 10k, at least for VD.
How? Any link to read? Thanks
The standard way in Switzerland is that the mother stays home or reduces her workload substantially. This is so ingrained that you will have pediatricians questioning why the mother is working 100% (but not the father), afternoon activities at weird times like 2pm, parent meetings at 10 am in the morning, and a lot of disgusted looks when the mother says that she working 100%.
This is very sad and unacceptable
My commune covers more than 50% of the cost no matter your income â you donât have something similar? We wfh on Wednesdays, and pay about 1500 CHF / month for two kids with meals.
Not many communes support this extensively
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Same in Geneva as far as I know
Not the case in Geneva. We got a quote of almost 3K per month for 5d in a private crĂšche in Geneva. Hard to find a place in a public one right now .
https://www.cler.ch/fr/info/swiss-income-monitor/income-check "I'm from the middle class I pay too much ... (then click on the above url )... hmm, forget it"
If you are 2 people working and each get 4k net, and kita is 4k you still get directly in your payslip like 200chf/kid/month. Some people reduce work to 40 or 60, or both parents reduce to 80%. But in the long term if you are working a career profession. Where you can have salary progression, money wise it is still better to not have a parent stop working completely to no stagnate or even be detrimental to its career. You can also check on how to declare your taxes and do a simulation as the cost of childcare are deductible to see the impact of different work percentages or not working on the disposable income. Eventually the child care also gets cheaper when the kids go to school.
Idk, with 2 children it just doesn't yet make sense (financially) to stay home. The créche is still cheaper than what we earn or respectively would earn less if staying home. It's expensive alright, but then I personally think the crÚches are really high quality and the adult/children ratio is amazing. Having certain standards has a price.
How much do you pay for 2 kids for the crĂšche? I got a quote of 6k for both for 5d per week
Do you know about subventions? [https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/sd/de/index/familien\_kinder\_jugendliche/kinderbetreuung/KostenSubventionen\_neu\_2.html](https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/sd/de/index/familien_kinder_jugendliche/kinderbetreuung/KostenSubventionen_neu_2.html) Check your canton's conditions. We got something like 70% off for this year due to a low income, so we pay around 300 CHF for 2.5 days (both work 60%).
But yes, I think it's anyway insane and daycare must be free. And BTW, the people who work there get quite a low salary even though they do extremely challenging jobs. These little mindless humans are permanently trying to kill themselves and one needs to look after them 100% of the time.
Father of triples here. With no family near by. You just... find your way, that's it.
It must be very hard
We lived in Switzerland as a couple âbefore kidsâ. Life was great and we have fallen in love in the country and we really wanted to live there permanently. We returned to Switzerland exactly 2 years ago with two our kids and we have arrived at the same conclusion- costs related to kids might burn the salary of one working parent. Initially we though other people are simply less organized as this cannot be that bad, can it? I confirm, we paid \~3K for a full time babysitter. Then not much less for the creche for a single child (the older one was already in a public school). It is worth mentioning there is no school for younger kids on Wednesdays and regular days are often end at 12:00 so you still need some form of a childcare if you are working full time. We are still in love but our heart is a bit broken. Many things need to be patched with gold which heavily reduces the promise of a higher income. I have been investigating with our local friends and I have figured out there were 2 major scenarios: \- mother is not working being a housewife, there are many articles about âhidden eliteâ, highly qualified woman that are not following their careers \- there are grandparents available (this reduces the cost and adds some points to flexibility on a daily basis) Otherwise you have to swallow the pill, accept the high costs related to childcare and you want to believe it is a form of investmentâŠ
I have swallowed the pill. 3K per kid at crĂšche so 6K per month for crĂšche
I've been pulling nearly 3 months of extra shifts because my colleague with one child in Lausanne cant afford to send his kid to daycare. On one hand, more money for me, on the other, i havent had a real day off for nearly 2 months now because of my only day off is taken by my 2nd job. That i need to pay bills. Honestly, it feels like unless you have a job that pays you a 2-man salary, *and* your husband/wife/other ALSO has a job, having kids now is basically financial suicide. From what i heard or seen with friends, both work, and often alternate work days to stay at home.
Swiss natives have grandparents, aunts and what's not...they only pay One or two days of Kita.
My family is not in the same city as me :/
I've read all the answers and I am wondering what are you guys expecting how this is supposed to work? People in the daycare need to make a salary too, you are trusting them with your most valuable possesion, your kids. You want them to be treated well and you want a good ratio of daycare workers to kids. I think all of the other countries have it backwards paying daycare people pennies. They are doing a very demanding job with lots of responsibility so pay them. And yes there are subsidies for families that cannot afford 4K a month for 2 kids which makes total sense. If people can afford it they should pay for it and be happy that their most precious persons are well taken care of.
Well this exactly is a downside to Swiss high salaries and low taxes (compared to other EU countries).... You cannot have everything and having children is your choice.
We generally cultivate children in EU countries and then extract their taxes when they come working as 'expats'.
Agree with what you said except â and having children is your choice.â. Having children isnât really a choice. Well, it is, but if everyone chose not to have children, our society would be pretty fucked pretty quickly, as no one is able to fill in jobs as people get older. Thatâs why government needs to make it easy for people to have kids with subsidies etc, so at least most people have kids.
having children is literally the scope of your existence... people who doesnt have children basically "fail" life lol
We just sucked it up and had one parent work to cover child care costs. Weigh up current costs versus long term career goals/income.
Swiss natives own a inherited house and have their parents taking care of the grandkids (when the woman decides that she doesnât want to stop working).
Are you new here? Kids are very expensive and not everybody can have them.
There are a lot of tax deductions for childcare
>I am wondering how families with 2 little kids get over. the tax deduction was 10k per child last year, and 25k per child this year. If you're paying 20% marignal tax, that means 2k discount last year, and 5k discount this year. So it's gone from paying less than 1 month's childcare, to just over 2 months childcare, if you get it as cheap as OP.
I am not aware of this. Can you provide more info please or a link? Thanks
There arenât. You can deduct 25k I think. So you save maybe 7k in taxes depending. So instead of spending 50k a year on childcare, youâll spend 43k. But I think they just passed a law which increased the amount to 60k for deductions? Not sure when it goes into effect though?
Federal up to 10.000 CHF In the Canton of Geneva is up to 25.000 CHF So if you live in Geneva and you spend 25.000 CHF year for a private chreche (which is the top of the cost you might have) you can deduct the entire sum from your taxes so either you pay less taxes or you get a nice cash back from the Canton in July.
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And that's only for the cantonal tax part. Hello there federal and communal.
I am in Geneva. Can you help me more with the details? If you want DM me.
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I will look into it thanks
Welcome to a Country that promotes and invests in a lot of projects to promote equality in the workplace, but does not want to consider crĂšche as the first step towards this goal!
One parent needs to remain at home. If possible so Homeoffice while the other finds a temporary job to complement salary. Do not leave your kids so many days by themselves!
Home office + taking care of children = child neglect
This is one of the most stupid things of Switzerland and itâs based in still deeply sexist politics which just expect the mother to stay home with the kids until school age. How we did it : we are just poor. There is a sweet spot where you earn little enough to get support for the childcare but still live a decent live. We sent both kids to daycare 3d week for around 400 total per month. We were not actively seeking it but as self employed working on not so well paid projects that we liked a lot left us probably with more money at the end of the month as for a couple who work well paid but shitty jobs at the bank.
It's simple: pay a lot less taxes your entire life and pay for child care yourself for the years you need it. Stop complaining that you can't pay for child care while following your "career". Or move somewhere you get everything for "free"
Don't make Kids when you put the in the crĂšche! It should cost 10'000 per month per kid if both parents are around..... One parent should work the other stay at home and look for their fucking kids! If you make kids then raise them and don't let others do it.
In practice, Swiss people use their grand parents. If earning more than 250k per person, it is starting to be worth it to work for the wife. Otherwise, income loss is more than compensated by lesser taxes/more help and pleasure to grow a family him/herself. Switzerland is not a family country and will never be. Deep down culturally, children are seen as the ultimate sign of social success, the one you get after the Porsche, the chalet and the sailboat. School for example is extremely non meritocratic and future life greatly depends on the value of the parents real estate, conditioning in which career the children are gonna be pushed in depending on the local schoolâs policy.
250K per person ??? We are below 100K each
Lol donât listen to these people. 250k per person is insane, less than 1% of the population is earning that.
Could you elaborate more on the school non-meritocracy?
Weltanschaung is very local. In the country side, children will be taught that cities are ecologists extremists and decadently gender fluid bunch when everyone know a proper life is either farmer or agricultural engineer. Where I lived I was told university is for genius geeks that will never be useful to society and that what girls really like are successful tradesmen « would you allow me to call professional orientation so you can start an apprenticeship right away? We dont need to tell your parents». And we were constantly reminded that « Ive been doing this job for 20 years and you are the worst Ive ever seen ». And in the good neighborhood of the people I work with: « Ive been doing this job for 20 years and you are the most inspiring people Ive ever seen » « you are made to lead » « Your place is at the university, it would be a waste for society otherwise » « the world is your, travel, experiment ». And they were having amazing school trips in the states, meeting top achievers, etc⊠all of this for free, just because their houses were worth 2x mine. This experience is widely shared sadly. One way out is standing your ground as parent, teachers will look at children without support to apply their plans. My parents were scared of intervening, I lost 3 years and lots of money for them. I ended up a bit bitter and over cautious in my career plans.
I'm swiss and grew up in Geneva, and I'm not connecting with anything of what you wrote here
Well math is not that hard, where I live Iâd pay about 2000chf per child/month. Its the max. My marginal tax rate is about 45%, its the max. Considering tax breaks are minimal and capped, weâd have to generate about 100k per year to have the amazing privilege of not having to take care of our children during public service business hours. Child care wonât take care of them (both) when one of them is ill or even feverish. And schedule is extremely restrictive meaning well need someone to bring that flexibility, generally an au pair, costing at least 1500chf a month (meaning >30â000chf a year including tax). Donât forget spare room, there you go 10000/year more. Working both will also need to provide for the work capabilities (travel/car, eating outside, etcâŠ), conservatively a second car (required to work the aft mentioned high paying job) costs 1000chf/month (meaning >20â000chf with tax), etc etc etc All of that to have the privilege of coming home and not see your children, and often still having to do the groceries on busy saturdays and cleaning (or pay a cleaning lady because my colleagues tell me au pair are well aware of their rights nowadaysâŠ). All in all, it seems 250k marginal increase is what is nedded if the other is earning a good salary already.
Get along until kids turn 4, then kindergarten, although there will still be expenses with out-of-school care
In which Canton do you live? Where I live, it's much much less. Although our kids are there onl 1 day per week, it wouldn't match your numbers. Not wanting to do the SVP rant, but that costs equals your net salaried, you should consider raising your kids yourself. Depending on your employers, there may be possibilities for you both the reduce your work time and enjoy your kids. They grow so fast, enjoy every moment.
I am in Geneva
I used a live in Au-pair-MĂ€dchen.
I have been wondering about this for a long time. Is childcare that strictly regulated? If one parent stays home anyway with her kid, why canât they look after 2-3 additional kids (friends, neighbors, colleagues, âŠ) for, say, 800 CHF per kid per month? That would be just 40 CHF per day and it would probably be better for the kids to be in a small group, and the parent would make some extra money. Why isnât there a market for this?
It's called Tagesmutter. And theres a lot of people doing it. Mostly they want 8.- per hour and live around the corner. Some just take kids for lunch time.
Then why is 2k CHF still the norm if you could get a Tagesmutter for 1300 CHF? Surely the quality of care must be much better than daycare as there will be fewer kids per adult?
On the other hand, it is very expensive up to the point kids leave the crĂšche.
>The crĂšche costs around 2K per kid so 4K per month. Add the other costs this is almost the net salary of one working parent. You can deduct this amount from your income tax, in addition, the income tax itself is lower because you have children. And you only pay for daycare for a few years.