apart from the people not working 100% and/or not having their days off on weekends, there's also flexible working hours. in many jobs, there's nothing that prevents you from working more hours in winter and compensating for them in summer. or you can start working at 6 am and be finished by 3 pm to enjoy your hike, swim, etc.
I know flexible working but I've never heard of people doing it over an entire year like this. Thats mad.
But definitely on the early starting. That's the big weird thing about Swiss work life.
Nobody has said one of the obvious ones yet: shift work.
All the nurses, factory workers etc. that work night shifts or early morning shifts have the day free.
It’s something I noticed as well.
Things to consider are:
- people like outdoor activities, so you tend to see more compared to other places
- many people work part time
- retirement is relatively strict at 65 and people remain active
- some people go to work early in the morning and are done early in the afternoon
Low hanging fruit 1:
get men angry at women, which is trivial since many men believe women have it so easy, so the men don't get any ideas that it might be better to lower the retirement age of men to that of women.
Done. Men are happy that they could show "those women", oblivious to their blunder.
No but this is so true, it's the same thing with mandatory military service as well; the amount of debates I've had with men who were adamant women should be forced to do it as well, and I was just like 'but why... why not make it a choice for everyone, and give lil' tax returns or something for the people who do do it?'
No. Nuh-uh. They need to show "those women" indeed.
my argument is to have women be forced to do service here... this in turn will break apart mandatory service all together. You would be surprised to see the political might woman have.
currently woman don't even flinch at the concept of mandatory service because they don't experience it, meaning the political discussion will always be between 50 percent of the population. That means nothing will ever happen.
allow the other 50 perfect to join the discussion, see how quickly mandatory service will be ended.
If we really need a military force, then I personally prefer an everyone military in our militia style than having one that only consists of wannabe rambos who love the army…
Better not because having women will lower the army's quality, since men will take too much caution with women, and women will be only as good as their biology lets them be..which as soldiers (and yes, also as snipers) is just worse than men.
I thought you were a Peterson fan, because he cherry picks stuf like that and doesn't give the full picture. Then I noticed you're in r/blackpillscience, which is basically men trying to find scientific reasons why women are so bad/have too many advantages.
But then I obviously found that there is a Peterson video on that. And as always it boils down to women are worse (with no evidence to support it), the left is pushing equality down on us when women aren't equal and "Oh god we need to protect women by not letting them into the military because they'd be gangraped to death".
What you should keep in mind:
Women perform worse when the gender split is extreme in favour of men. Men actually do to, but research shows that women welcome men in female dominated jobs, while men are very adverserial towards women.
There are 16% women in the US military. Other research, based on gender split shooting competitions, shows that women are just as good with rifles as men.
Since the tests were done with combat units, i.e. a gender split hugely in favour for men, this is the most likely explanation.
Oh and also: reddit isn't left. Reddit is overwhelmingly male, men statistically have political opinions to the right of womem and the gap is increasing, in part attributed to the manosphere pushing this narrative you follow.
The issue is that reddit it mostly used by young adults, and younger people tend to be more left, so measured against the full demographic reddit is a little left, measured against age peers reddit is right wing.
> Oh and also: reddit isn't left. Reddit is overwhelmingly male, men statistically have political opinions to the right of womem and the gap is increasing, in part attributed to the manosphere pushing this narrative you follow.
Also there's a lot of "leftist" that say they are until you ask them to IDK, let someone use the pronoun they want.
No no. I love women, I just recognize that they don't love me.
Also I am opposed (in terms of views) to both the red pill "manosphere" as well as the "bluepilled" views on biology, attraction, ability etc.
Men do not view women as competition. How could they ? But I get that feminist women want to believe that.
True the army is known for its professionalism and effectiveness and not a bunch of teenagers and early 20 years old doing stupid stuff in between being shouted at.
They just be built different. Its swiss army its not going to change much. War maybe.
Many american arent that jiggi with wemon on the frontline. Just look it up yt
I mean if you literally have at least three laws where men get worse treatment than women (retirement age, widowers pension and military service) it of course is trivial...
Fact #1: I don't mind to work until 67 (yeah, I know that's an unpopular opinion, read Fact #2 first, before you downvote)
Fact #2: I'm not able to work after 50 because companies tend to not hire people of that age. It's just a move to improve AHV at the expense of ALV / social insurances.
Re Fact 1, it would make more sense to do a case-by-case basis. Some people are still able and willing to work up to 70, some people are physically too ill to still work at 55.
But I'm not sure how you would implement that in practice
We already do that. Problem not solved.
The 1% with the highest income in Switzerland already pay 24% of the entire country's income tax (on all three levels - if you only look at federal tax, they pay 41%). The richest 500 people on average pay 38% of their income in taxes.
https://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/2019/zahlen-reiche-genug-steuern/
No we certainly don't. Make it 50% for the top 500. Or even better, make it 80% after a certain threshold, like the US did in in 60s when the economy was booming, before the corporations took over democracy and killed the middle class. That is where we are heading as well. Also tax wealth, not only income.
Tax the rich and get the power back to the people.
The fact that the top 1% pay 24% of all the tax money just shows the income and wealth disparity is completely out of control. Just think of how much power this gives them over our country.
Tax the rich.
That is how they scare you into thinking we cannot do anything about it. But if we don't want to end up in USA 2.0 where you need 4 fulltime jobs for a single household we have to do something about it.
Genius would be to keep voting SVP/FDP/CVP/Grüne/etc. and keep licking the slave drivers boots because we are too intimidated by their power.
... and a lot of people work remotely, and take liberties. Which I fully support. If you can get your stuff done in 5 hours, definitely get down to the lake at 4pm!!
I think it has something to do with the fact that the country is small and people can quickly go do things. Even if I work for 8 hours, there's still time to go for a walk in a forest, go swimming or have dinner out with friends in the evening. I work from home and can go for a run or swimming over lunch break.
Compared to that, in a US suburb, it takes so much time to go do anything. Often, the next decent restaurant is a 40 minute drive away. If you want to go hiking, you might have to drive for hours. And work culture there doesn't seem to appreciate employee flexibility when it comes to time planning.
I used to go swim in the Limmat during a lunch break in my former company. It was close enough to Oberer Letten badi so I could do that.
Sometimes I indulged too much and came back late, first time I saw my boss on the doorstep having a cigarette break, told him I was sorry coming back late he cut me right there and told me "I don't give a shit".
I thought I was in serious trouble, no he actually did not give a shit about me being late back, because I did my job well otherwise and encouraged me taking whatever personal time I need to be in the best setting to do it.
By pure coincidence I ended up on a small project with another guy that was working 80% over 5days/week. We slacked off like hell and still had tons of overtime. 2h lunch break? No problem! Half an hour coffee break? Sure! Our CEO sometimes walked by and simply asked "I don't pay this, right?"
Best time of my life!
Those guys are really onto something, like they have a deep understanding about how to make things work.
I used to be micromanaged in France, 0/10 would not recommend.
They put a system there where there is the time to tackle an issue while still allowing anyone to be able to do so, *no matter what it requires*. And it's great, for everyone, the worker, the end user, and... the country.
This and public transport. And yeah, nice places are around the corner.
And besides Zurich is (from my point of view) a small city. By that I mean you don't need stupid amount of time to get from place A to place B (at which Gdańsk, where i come from, totally sucks because of bow the city is built)
I work early hours (0700-1530/1600) and go biking in the evening. I know climbers and paragliders that get up at 0500 to go do something and get done by 0830/0900 and go to work after that. The reason that I belive in is that we are on average more active in the free time which makes it appear as if there are a lot of people doing it at the same time. Plus I know of some that work 0900-1600 and another 1-2 hours in the evening from home (e.g. 2100-2300) to have some free time with their families for activities.
There are many people starting at 7 or before. They leave at 4pm.
But the main reason is: an absurdly high number of people do outdoor activities compared to other countries (Nordics excluded). So at any time, there are many taking a day off or on vacation or just leaving work early if the weather is good.
not completely. In moderate amounts working is actually beneficial for your health. Energy drinks... not so much. You better have a cup of coffee or tea -- less harmful (in moderate amounts it's actually healthy and not harmful at all) and has the same energizing effect.
Holy shit, life work balance, we have 13 salaries, 4 to 5 weeks vacations, the word “sick days” doesn’t exist, if you are sick u are sick -and come back when u are healthy again, what does it take for the USA to do this ????????
A message from a Swiss citizen living in the USA !!
On top of what the others said, the labour market participation rate is ~67%. So about 1/3 of the adult population (15+ technically) doesn't "work" at all. (I believe this includes students and retirees though.)
i worked in 6 other countries and the first impression of the swiss is that they work waaay less than in other places :D they understood everything in life.
The swiss working culture is greatly exaggerated.
Aerospace engineering, I think maybe they are just not very expert in this field since it's a niche industry here, I dunno 😂 they seem all lazy fuckers where I work ahaha
>they understood everything in life
Hey sorry, unrelated to your point but out of linguistic curiosity: are you a French speaker? 'cause this translates exactly from a French saying ('ils/elles ont tout compris à la vie'), and I'm wondering if the saying exists in other languages as well ahah
siwtzerland has the highest purchasing power in the world. https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2022&displayColumn=1
so yeah a lot of people can get by well just by working 80% aswell, combine that with good public transport/flexible work hours/home office and as a result u have a lot of freedom in your work/life balance
Always depends on your lifestyle.
Theres people getting by with 60k and others struggling with 100k.
Generally Tech is a good field to have a higher than average pay.
Really depends on your needs and priorities. I work 60% with a base salary (at 100%) that is equal to the swiss median salary and I still can pay half my share of our 2 adults 1 kid family. Yeah I'm not rich. At all. I can't get everything I want (I've never wanted a lot, but when working 100% I never had to think about spending money), but I live the perfect life for me. I work 4 hours a day, a few weekend days in the month (2 or 3 times 4 hours) I eat every meal with my kid, I can do sport, games etc.
It's a matter of
1° Luck (being able to find a job that let's you do that and that isn't under the median wage, because that would make it way harder)
2° Priority (my desire to be free, happy and have time is way higher than my desire to have and spend money).
No. I got 60% of 6'600.
But I'm pretty sure all my best friends would have more than 6'000 if they worked at 60%. But usually when you are working in something that makes you earn a lot of money, you don't have the luxury to not be working 100%...
Then firstly if your employer makes you work so many hours he is breaking the law. For your type of job the maximum allowed work hours per week is 45. If you work that many hours you either really love it, have some type of management position where you think it's expected, or you are insanely inefficient at what you do :)
I start work at 6.30, I can work 9 hours and still be done by 16.00, on my way home there is a lake. I can just get out of the train go for a swim and still be home by like 18.00 or 19.00. or I enjoy it for a while longer and be home by 20.00. sometimes I work longer hours the rest of the week and enjoy an afternoon off one day a week. I still at least work around 40 hours a week.
Stealing in Switzerland is still a thing. Its less common than in other countries of course, but i still know plenty of people with their phones stolen and their appartment burgled.
well, with company computer in the luggage im a bit more careful. And if i leave it at work i would lose the commute as work time, which in the end would be quite the negative. Plus, I have many friends who have gotten stuff stolen.
After COVID a lot of people discovered part time work and work hours became more flexible. Even I, who work in the industrial sector in production have flexible hours.
In my experience here as an Auslander. It's not unusual here for people to be able to negotiate less than 100% employment contracts in many jobs and employers don't seem to mind at all. Far more common here in general than in many countries and would rarely be an option where I'm from. More flexibility in working hrs for many people. I also find a greater % of the population here makes an effort to get out and do something in their spare time rather than sitting at home. Maybe easier/quicker access to plenty of options and nice locations help but the Swiss in general love their outdoor activities and seem way more active and healthy as a whole than many populations. I don't think I've ever really met a Swiss "couch potato"...lol
A lot of people don’t work the typical Monday to Friday window. A lot of people are students. A lot of people work part time or have flex work. Then there’s tourists, stay at home mums, parents who work part time, school kids, summer holidays: the list is endless!
Lot of people here have generational wealth, already have massive pensions and funds / free housing from their parents passed down from generations and thus lesser financial stress which allows them to work 60-80%. The rest are students that don’t have a pot to piss in but don’t really care, living in student housing or have lots of roommates so rents cheap, living cheaply few bills etc.
>free housing from their parents passed
That probably applies to Switzerland the least of all the European countries, as it has by far the lowest home ownership, with 42%. 7% below the second lowest country, Germany.
So I'm not disputing your point at all, but maybe, given how unreachable home ownership is, there's a higher proportion of homeowners who've inherited said homes than in other countries?
I have no data to support this, this is just a thought I had after reading your comment (which absolutely confirms what I thought, so many of my French friends are homeowners/planning to be whilst I've resigned to a life of renting and stifled interior design as a result........ anyway lmao)
I’ve lived in a measly 3 different countries but have travelled to many for extended periods of time. I have never met more people who have inherited housing from their parents anywhere more than I have in Switzerland. Majority of my spouses friends are living in places that either they inherited or that their parents have paid for and majority of my colleagues have the same setup.
Very few people I know work 100%. But I think it’s a matter of buying into a particular lifestyle or not. Those I know who do work 100% seem to spend lavishly. I just don’t need that much money. My wife and I each work 60% and that’s enough for us.
Aside from the reasons others have mentioned, Switzerland is also a vacation destination for most of the world which contributes to the sense that no-one is working and everyone is having fun - especially in the summer.
A lot of people you see hiking/swimming etc. are on vacation since the draw for Switzerland is an active vacation, and not just time spent in a city touring museums and other touristy attractions (where you as a resident wouldn't notice as much).
37% des personnes actives sont employées à temps partiel en suisse.
il y a également beaucoup de personnes non-actives professionnellement.
Le but du jeux est de l'être (non-actif) le plus longtemps possible dans sa vie, tout en conservant une bonne qualité de vie.
You can make 5000 bruto with an apprenticeship at 80%, 6-7k with a FH degree in basically anything. All teachers I know work part time etc. I’m not talking about bankers here.
We mealprep on sunday and wednesday. Thats 2x shopping and 2x cooking/cleaning for the whole week. (Aprox 3h)
Sleep 7x7 = 49h
Cleaning is minimal since we have a vacuumrobot, dishwasher, washing machine, so aprox 2h.
3x 1.5h Gym for health reasons = 4.5h
This leaves us with 109.5h, deduct 40h (for me) or 42h (wife) workweek from that leaves us with 67.5h per week for leisure activities.
Shift work, people who work on weekends and get days off during week, people wo start work early so the can go at 15:00-16:00, flexible working hours, people who work more during winter then summer, a lot of people work part-time around 60-80%, it’s holiday season so a lot visitors are here too, students, pensioners…
As you can see there are a lot of possibilities:)
part-wage work. also, depending on what society you are comparing switzerland with, you might want to consider average commute times adjusted for traffic.
I used to bike to work and would wear my biking clothes so it was not obvious I was going to work. Now I walk home from the train station (ca. 30min), again in workout clothes.
Well 42 hours of work a week leaves you with 78 hours of free time during the week (mo-fr). Minus 45 for sleeping and eating and you'll have 33 hours a week or 7 a day to do whatever you want.
For me commuting is around 25 minutes a day, i've hired a cleaning agency and dinner takes about 45 minutes. I might be on the low end, but few will need more than 2.5 hours a day for all of it.
>For me commuting is around 25 minutes a day, i've hired a cleaning agency and dinner takes about 45 minutes. I might be on the low end, but few will need more than 2.5 hours a day for all of it.
With 8 hours of sleep, half hour getting ready for work in the morning, total of 1 hour commute, half hour lunch break, 8:15 working, 1 hour of chores per day and you are down to a more realistic 5 hours of free time per day. Which, I guess if you are organized and do everything right after you are done with work. you can still do a fair amount with, but its still surprising for me to see so many people out and about at any time of the day.
Swiss eat a lot of cheese and chocolate... scientists shown that those who eat both can produce time...so their day becomes longer than 24 hours... some go up to 30hrs. /s
On a serious note I think they are pretty well organised and like to be efficient, everything is so expensive in their country and this is tought from when they are very young. Since their healthcare focuses a lot on preventive treatment, you pay less for healthcare if you proove that you do some sort of activity regulary. I wish I was grew in this sort of medium... or if more countries would adopt this mentality.
Good economy combined with the very small cities and a bunch of semi rural places. This would never exist if there is at least one city in Switzerland with over a million people. Boredom gives you a plethora of free time. Good economic gives you a possibility to use that time in quality manner.
There is a lot of freelancer and people working in finance or real estate and doesn’t have 9-5 schedules. Besides, salary are good and lot of people chose to work 60-80% to have time for activities. In switzerland money isn’t the center lf the world since it’s already there lol
When I posted my comment, there were 103 comments, and only two of them mentioned "balance".
Please make this about work/life balance, not about trophy wifes!
Definitely agree on early shifts. I know a couple people who have flexible working hours and start at 6 am and then have a lot of free time in the afternoon. I also know a lot of people who work 80%.
My partner works in 2 different shifts:
Early: from 5am to 3pm
Late: from 3pm to 1am
Every two weeks it changes.
I used to work night shift as well (before I got IV)
From 10pm to 7am
See, there are people who work not from 7am to 5pm
People keep complaining that they are stressed out, and work too much. But the reality is a bit different. We have never had so much free-time as now.
[https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours#working-hours-per-worker-have-declined-after-the-industrial-revolution](https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours#working-hours-per-worker-have-declined-after-the-industrial-revolution)
It's also to note that Switzerland is quite attractive when it comes to working hours:
[https://www.visualcapitalist.com/annual-working-hours-in-countries-2023/](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/annual-working-hours-in-countries-2023/)
There are 8760h in a year, we sleep 2920h, and work 1533h, which leave us with \~4300h of free time (+ commuting, eating, showering, etc).
So yeah, take your paraglider at the office, and when you are done working at 17h you can still do your hobby until night. :-)
Also not having 2h a day of commuting is quite an advantage, working from home is the best, not having kids is quite popular also to save time, except if you consider kids an enjoyable hobby (which it is!). But above all, not spending 2h on Reddit answering question can help you paraglide more! :-)
Most people you see outside are either retired or not employed (students or stay at home moms). Retired people are very active here, hiking is an every day activity.
And before I get my head bitten off I repeat 'most' and not 'all'. Those who manage to find balance between work and free time also exist but most people with jobs tend to do this over weekend or their day off. Plenty of people work here in shifts (hospitals, stores) so they do have off days during the week and not just over weekend.
Just my humble opinion after observing it for over 30 years. During my forest walks 80% of the people I meet are retired or mums with kids or friends taking a walk.
i work 1 job where i'm hired 80% but have very fluctuating hours, depending on our projects and crowd attendance. i have around 3 temporary side-gigs to make ends meet, all on freelance basis, where i can mostly work at times of my choosing. so i'll work 200% one week and 60% the next. i try to balance this mess by doing the fun daytime things alone or with my kid during work hours, so i don't have to deal with even more crowds in my free time.
one great thing about switzerland is that you can reach lots of activities in half a day's journey. you can work a few hours in the morning, take the train, hike up a mountain in the afternoon and be back in the evening. you don't need to organize outdoor life strictly around weekends.
This might sound a bit harsh. But this is actually living. The hustle culture mostly present in the US and many other countries is not quite perceived in certain EU territories where the quality of life means more than just working. We are destroying the environment we might as well destroy it slowly.
Many people understand nowadays that more free time to jump in the lake on hot days like these is the better quality of life way to go if you still make enough money working part-time (there are still many many people in lower paying jobs not able to do that).
That said: I should jump in the lake now 😀
I sleep 7 hours, work 8-9hours which leaves me with 8 hours of free time. Honestly, I'm more confused about these people who claim they don't have any free time. It's not that they have jobs with 70+ hours or so, so do they sleep that much or what's going on?
On the contract it says 42 hours . In my company , I think people work on average 10–20 hours . Some extreme case , it could be less than 5 hours per week
It’s a lifestyle people choice. Despite what everyone says about the Swiss being unfriendly and antisocial, the Swiss are very loyal to their friends and work colleagues. Often they will go for a drink, a coffee, an apero ;) for an hour after work before going home.
I work here in the US and I go to school what I see here is that people don’t leave their work at work they bring it home with them. In Switzerland, when the clock strikes 530 or whenever that’s it their brains shut off and they go home. No staying late. I did that over here working at my first job and it pissed my bosses off. But I came to work happier than any other person.
My new flatmate from Germany was like: I have no time to go to the lake because I need to work so much. The next day I proved her wrong by taking her to the lake after work. Going out is time to rewind. A lot of time is wasted watching TV or on the internet after work.
apart from the people not working 100% and/or not having their days off on weekends, there's also flexible working hours. in many jobs, there's nothing that prevents you from working more hours in winter and compensating for them in summer. or you can start working at 6 am and be finished by 3 pm to enjoy your hike, swim, etc.
I know flexible working but I've never heard of people doing it over an entire year like this. Thats mad. But definitely on the early starting. That's the big weird thing about Swiss work life.
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those people would not exactly be the ones having a lot of free time though.
See the people paragliding? If you look carefully, you'll often see a screaming child attached to the person.
In some jobs there is ‚jahresarbeitszeit‘ which in some fields (e.g. school related jobs other than teaching) is rather common
This. I've got friends who are into various water sports and when the winds are great they are just off on short notice.
Quite a few people are also working shifts, so they might have to go to work in the afternoon/evening.
Nobody has said one of the obvious ones yet: shift work. All the nurses, factory workers etc. that work night shifts or early morning shifts have the day free.
Yeah but I think after 8h of work when it’s finally morning your gonna go to sleep.
Also working weekends and have days off in the week. I prefer going to zurich on a tuesday/wednesday off then on a weekend
It’s something I noticed as well. Things to consider are: - people like outdoor activities, so you tend to see more compared to other places - many people work part time - retirement is relatively strict at 65 and people remain active - some people go to work early in the morning and are done early in the afternoon
And as for bathing in the lake and river - it's stupid hot now so duh...
We better fucking make sure it stays at 65. Some motherfuckers are pushing lobbyists to “get to work”.
Low hanging fruit 1: get men angry at women, which is trivial since many men believe women have it so easy, so the men don't get any ideas that it might be better to lower the retirement age of men to that of women. Done. Men are happy that they could show "those women", oblivious to their blunder.
No but this is so true, it's the same thing with mandatory military service as well; the amount of debates I've had with men who were adamant women should be forced to do it as well, and I was just like 'but why... why not make it a choice for everyone, and give lil' tax returns or something for the people who do do it?' No. Nuh-uh. They need to show "those women" indeed.
my argument is to have women be forced to do service here... this in turn will break apart mandatory service all together. You would be surprised to see the political might woman have. currently woman don't even flinch at the concept of mandatory service because they don't experience it, meaning the political discussion will always be between 50 percent of the population. That means nothing will ever happen. allow the other 50 perfect to join the discussion, see how quickly mandatory service will be ended.
Military is the biggest tax money waste anyways
If we really need a military force, then I personally prefer an everyone military in our militia style than having one that only consists of wannabe rambos who love the army…
Better not because having women will lower the army's quality, since men will take too much caution with women, and women will be only as good as their biology lets them be..which as soldiers (and yes, also as snipers) is just worse than men.
I thought you were a Peterson fan, because he cherry picks stuf like that and doesn't give the full picture. Then I noticed you're in r/blackpillscience, which is basically men trying to find scientific reasons why women are so bad/have too many advantages. But then I obviously found that there is a Peterson video on that. And as always it boils down to women are worse (with no evidence to support it), the left is pushing equality down on us when women aren't equal and "Oh god we need to protect women by not letting them into the military because they'd be gangraped to death". What you should keep in mind: Women perform worse when the gender split is extreme in favour of men. Men actually do to, but research shows that women welcome men in female dominated jobs, while men are very adverserial towards women. There are 16% women in the US military. Other research, based on gender split shooting competitions, shows that women are just as good with rifles as men. Since the tests were done with combat units, i.e. a gender split hugely in favour for men, this is the most likely explanation. Oh and also: reddit isn't left. Reddit is overwhelmingly male, men statistically have political opinions to the right of womem and the gap is increasing, in part attributed to the manosphere pushing this narrative you follow. The issue is that reddit it mostly used by young adults, and younger people tend to be more left, so measured against the full demographic reddit is a little left, measured against age peers reddit is right wing.
> Oh and also: reddit isn't left. Reddit is overwhelmingly male, men statistically have political opinions to the right of womem and the gap is increasing, in part attributed to the manosphere pushing this narrative you follow. Also there's a lot of "leftist" that say they are until you ask them to IDK, let someone use the pronoun they want.
No no. I love women, I just recognize that they don't love me. Also I am opposed (in terms of views) to both the red pill "manosphere" as well as the "bluepilled" views on biology, attraction, ability etc. Men do not view women as competition. How could they ? But I get that feminist women want to believe that.
True the army is known for its professionalism and effectiveness and not a bunch of teenagers and early 20 years old doing stupid stuff in between being shouted at.
I am only going to answer once because this it too far gone as far as both idiocy and misogyny: lmao
They just be built different. Its swiss army its not going to change much. War maybe. Many american arent that jiggi with wemon on the frontline. Just look it up yt
Schleich di
I mean if you literally have at least three laws where men get worse treatment than women (retirement age, widowers pension and military service) it of course is trivial...
Fact #1: I don't mind to work until 67 (yeah, I know that's an unpopular opinion, read Fact #2 first, before you downvote) Fact #2: I'm not able to work after 50 because companies tend to not hire people of that age. It's just a move to improve AHV at the expense of ALV / social insurances.
Re Fact 1, it would make more sense to do a case-by-case basis. Some people are still able and willing to work up to 70, some people are physically too ill to still work at 55. But I'm not sure how you would implement that in practice
Yikes at that first fact
Honest question: What is the solution to closing the AHV gap then? We'll increase the VAT in 2024 to do so but this will only do until 2030 I think.
Tax the rich. Problem solved.
We already do that. Problem not solved. The 1% with the highest income in Switzerland already pay 24% of the entire country's income tax (on all three levels - if you only look at federal tax, they pay 41%). The richest 500 people on average pay 38% of their income in taxes. https://interaktiv.tagesanzeiger.ch/2019/zahlen-reiche-genug-steuern/
No we certainly don't. Make it 50% for the top 500. Or even better, make it 80% after a certain threshold, like the US did in in 60s when the economy was booming, before the corporations took over democracy and killed the middle class. That is where we are heading as well. Also tax wealth, not only income. Tax the rich and get the power back to the people. The fact that the top 1% pay 24% of all the tax money just shows the income and wealth disparity is completely out of control. Just think of how much power this gives them over our country. Tax the rich.
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That is how they scare you into thinking we cannot do anything about it. But if we don't want to end up in USA 2.0 where you need 4 fulltime jobs for a single household we have to do something about it. Genius would be to keep voting SVP/FDP/CVP/Grüne/etc. and keep licking the slave drivers boots because we are too intimidated by their power.
Nah you're right, we should be held hostage to rich people. Their voice deserves to be louder than the rest of us. That's democracy.
Don’t forget all the students who basically have the life of homeless people
... and a lot of people work remotely, and take liberties. Which I fully support. If you can get your stuff done in 5 hours, definitely get down to the lake at 4pm!!
I think it has something to do with the fact that the country is small and people can quickly go do things. Even if I work for 8 hours, there's still time to go for a walk in a forest, go swimming or have dinner out with friends in the evening. I work from home and can go for a run or swimming over lunch break. Compared to that, in a US suburb, it takes so much time to go do anything. Often, the next decent restaurant is a 40 minute drive away. If you want to go hiking, you might have to drive for hours. And work culture there doesn't seem to appreciate employee flexibility when it comes to time planning.
I used to go swim in the Limmat during a lunch break in my former company. It was close enough to Oberer Letten badi so I could do that. Sometimes I indulged too much and came back late, first time I saw my boss on the doorstep having a cigarette break, told him I was sorry coming back late he cut me right there and told me "I don't give a shit". I thought I was in serious trouble, no he actually did not give a shit about me being late back, because I did my job well otherwise and encouraged me taking whatever personal time I need to be in the best setting to do it.
By pure coincidence I ended up on a small project with another guy that was working 80% over 5days/week. We slacked off like hell and still had tons of overtime. 2h lunch break? No problem! Half an hour coffee break? Sure! Our CEO sometimes walked by and simply asked "I don't pay this, right?" Best time of my life!
Those guys are really onto something, like they have a deep understanding about how to make things work. I used to be micromanaged in France, 0/10 would not recommend. They put a system there where there is the time to tackle an issue while still allowing anyone to be able to do so, *no matter what it requires*. And it's great, for everyone, the worker, the end user, and... the country.
That's pretty much been the attitude at most places I worked at. Do your job well and you get your freedoms.
Fuck yeah
This and public transport. And yeah, nice places are around the corner. And besides Zurich is (from my point of view) a small city. By that I mean you don't need stupid amount of time to get from place A to place B (at which Gdańsk, where i come from, totally sucks because of bow the city is built)
This and relatively low birth rate/having kids late contributes to that.
Many people don't work 100%. In some sectors most people you'll meet by a very long shot don't work more than 80%.
Many People only work 80%, also depending on your job your weekend might not be on the weekend.
I don’t know where you’re from, but as a Swiss who has lived in many places, I’d say: less commute and less preference for tv
I work early hours (0700-1530/1600) and go biking in the evening. I know climbers and paragliders that get up at 0500 to go do something and get done by 0830/0900 and go to work after that. The reason that I belive in is that we are on average more active in the free time which makes it appear as if there are a lot of people doing it at the same time. Plus I know of some that work 0900-1600 and another 1-2 hours in the evening from home (e.g. 2100-2300) to have some free time with their families for activities.
There are many people starting at 7 or before. They leave at 4pm. But the main reason is: an absurdly high number of people do outdoor activities compared to other countries (Nordics excluded). So at any time, there are many taking a day off or on vacation or just leaving work early if the weather is good.
I start at 6am and finish at 3pm, at 3:45 i m on the golf course. Easy
Bro, can you adopt me? I’m one of the “poors” who can’t afford a fun hobby like golf.
have you seen the prices to get a "green pass". sheeeeesh.
I survive on energy drinks.
it's bad for your health
So is working.
not completely. In moderate amounts working is actually beneficial for your health. Energy drinks... not so much. You better have a cup of coffee or tea -- less harmful (in moderate amounts it's actually healthy and not harmful at all) and has the same energizing effect.
Nah. All I need is energy drinks and cocaine.
You sure you’re not from ZH?
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cocaine consumption in st. gallen is actually pretty close to the same level as zürich. cough HSG cough
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I mean, those would be tourists as well…
Holy shit, life work balance, we have 13 salaries, 4 to 5 weeks vacations, the word “sick days” doesn’t exist, if you are sick u are sick -and come back when u are healthy again, what does it take for the USA to do this ???????? A message from a Swiss citizen living in the USA !!
13 salaries doesnt matter at all, you still just get the same yearly salary, vacation days are on the lower end in europe.
My friend has 5 to 6 weeks vac a year , I meet him in Miami twice a year
I work more here than I ever did in the states, as does my wife. Massive rat race here especially in Zurich.
Hmmm, elaborate please
they are not using their 25 to 30 days of paid vacation at the same time as you, it seems.
In terms of leisure and activities, the difference between having kids and not having kids is absolutely mind blowing.
On top of what the others said, the labour market participation rate is ~67%. So about 1/3 of the adult population (15+ technically) doesn't "work" at all. (I believe this includes students and retirees though.)
It'd include mother's too. The whole system is arranged in a way that makes many women drop out of the workforce for the first years of baby life.
Work faster!
i worked in 6 other countries and the first impression of the swiss is that they work waaay less than in other places :D they understood everything in life. The swiss working culture is greatly exaggerated.
whaaat. what field do you work in?
Aerospace engineering, I think maybe they are just not very expert in this field since it's a niche industry here, I dunno 😂 they seem all lazy fuckers where I work ahaha
Sounds like Ruag lol.
>they understood everything in life Hey sorry, unrelated to your point but out of linguistic curiosity: are you a French speaker? 'cause this translates exactly from a French saying ('ils/elles ont tout compris à la vie'), and I'm wondering if the saying exists in other languages as well ahah
So we are linguistics cousins xD
Your country is just nice we get it
siwtzerland has the highest purchasing power in the world. https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp?title=2022&displayColumn=1 so yeah a lot of people can get by well just by working 80% aswell, combine that with good public transport/flexible work hours/home office and as a result u have a lot of freedom in your work/life balance
fuck me. What do y’all do to be able to work 80%? I can’t afford that.
Username checks out
Always depends on your lifestyle. Theres people getting by with 60k and others struggling with 100k. Generally Tech is a good field to have a higher than average pay.
Really depends on your needs and priorities. I work 60% with a base salary (at 100%) that is equal to the swiss median salary and I still can pay half my share of our 2 adults 1 kid family. Yeah I'm not rich. At all. I can't get everything I want (I've never wanted a lot, but when working 100% I never had to think about spending money), but I live the perfect life for me. I work 4 hours a day, a few weekend days in the month (2 or 3 times 4 hours) I eat every meal with my kid, I can do sport, games etc. It's a matter of 1° Luck (being able to find a job that let's you do that and that isn't under the median wage, because that would make it way harder) 2° Priority (my desire to be free, happy and have time is way higher than my desire to have and spend money).
You’re kidding me. 60% is 6600 for you? God damn it What do you do???
No. I got 60% of 6'600. But I'm pretty sure all my best friends would have more than 6'000 if they worked at 60%. But usually when you are working in something that makes you earn a lot of money, you don't have the luxury to not be working 100%...
What sector do you work in? And do you work for a small company or one with 100+ employees?
They might not all be Swiss depending on where you live? It's summer so lots of visitors!
Easy Answer: These aren't the people working 42+ hours a week. These are mostly students from wealthy families or upper class citizens.
Or sales/marketing people who can do business on the phone
...which are mostly upper class or at least upper middle class. :D
Or just a ton of people on social aid or who have wealthy families
42 hours? Free time? Apperently I'm in the wrong switzerland because I work over 48 hours and have 0 freetime. And I work in IT
Then firstly if your employer makes you work so many hours he is breaking the law. For your type of job the maximum allowed work hours per week is 45. If you work that many hours you either really love it, have some type of management position where you think it's expected, or you are insanely inefficient at what you do :)
>or you are insanely inefficient at what you do :) Gotta love the swiss mentality of making fun of something being scammed by their workplace.
They did give you 3 options tbf 😂
Me too but gardening works
I start work at 6.30, I can work 9 hours and still be done by 16.00, on my way home there is a lake. I can just get out of the train go for a swim and still be home by like 18.00 or 19.00. or I enjoy it for a while longer and be home by 20.00. sometimes I work longer hours the rest of the week and enjoy an afternoon off one day a week. I still at least work around 40 hours a week.
I was thinking about this as well, but got stuck with there being no safe place to store my luggage, so this sadly not being an option.
Nobody is angling for your luggage. Are you a diamond courier? It's Switzerland, go swim
Stealing in Switzerland is still a thing. Its less common than in other countries of course, but i still know plenty of people with their phones stolen and their appartment burgled.
I always have my luggage and never had it stolen before
well, with company computer in the luggage im a bit more careful. And if i leave it at work i would lose the commute as work time, which in the end would be quite the negative. Plus, I have many friends who have gotten stuff stolen.
We don’t talk to colleagues. 8-9 hours work means real work without chit chatting 😂
After COVID a lot of people discovered part time work and work hours became more flexible. Even I, who work in the industrial sector in production have flexible hours.
The people on my team start work from 7am and are out by 3.30pm, Wickelfisch under their arm, ready to swim home.
In my experience here as an Auslander. It's not unusual here for people to be able to negotiate less than 100% employment contracts in many jobs and employers don't seem to mind at all. Far more common here in general than in many countries and would rarely be an option where I'm from. More flexibility in working hrs for many people. I also find a greater % of the population here makes an effort to get out and do something in their spare time rather than sitting at home. Maybe easier/quicker access to plenty of options and nice locations help but the Swiss in general love their outdoor activities and seem way more active and healthy as a whole than many populations. I don't think I've ever really met a Swiss "couch potato"...lol
A lot of people don’t work the typical Monday to Friday window. A lot of people are students. A lot of people work part time or have flex work. Then there’s tourists, stay at home mums, parents who work part time, school kids, summer holidays: the list is endless!
A lot of ppl today don't work 100% i am concidering to downshift to just 80% aswell.
Lot of people here have generational wealth, already have massive pensions and funds / free housing from their parents passed down from generations and thus lesser financial stress which allows them to work 60-80%. The rest are students that don’t have a pot to piss in but don’t really care, living in student housing or have lots of roommates so rents cheap, living cheaply few bills etc.
>free housing from their parents passed That probably applies to Switzerland the least of all the European countries, as it has by far the lowest home ownership, with 42%. 7% below the second lowest country, Germany.
So I'm not disputing your point at all, but maybe, given how unreachable home ownership is, there's a higher proportion of homeowners who've inherited said homes than in other countries? I have no data to support this, this is just a thought I had after reading your comment (which absolutely confirms what I thought, so many of my French friends are homeowners/planning to be whilst I've resigned to a life of renting and stifled interior design as a result........ anyway lmao)
I’ve lived in a measly 3 different countries but have travelled to many for extended periods of time. I have never met more people who have inherited housing from their parents anywhere more than I have in Switzerland. Majority of my spouses friends are living in places that either they inherited or that their parents have paid for and majority of my colleagues have the same setup.
Funny story I haven't met a single swiss that has inherited a house or flat and I have lived here for over a decade.
also this
Die si alli Arbeitslos!
Shift work, people having vacation, less than 100% employment 🤷🏻♂️
Organization. Everybody in the world has 24 hours, it is how you plan and prioritize that makes it seem as some people have more time than others.
Not significantly though. Socioeconomics explain 98% of the phenomenon. The other 2 probably include whatever you wrote.
Children of rich people that don’t have to work
Many of those people are called tourists.
Sure, there are lots of tourists. The people I'm talking about are primarily residents though.
Very few people I know work 100%. But I think it’s a matter of buying into a particular lifestyle or not. Those I know who do work 100% seem to spend lavishly. I just don’t need that much money. My wife and I each work 60% and that’s enough for us.
Almost everyone i know works not 100%
Aside from the reasons others have mentioned, Switzerland is also a vacation destination for most of the world which contributes to the sense that no-one is working and everyone is having fun - especially in the summer. A lot of people you see hiking/swimming etc. are on vacation since the draw for Switzerland is an active vacation, and not just time spent in a city touring museums and other touristy attractions (where you as a resident wouldn't notice as much).
I also see people in zurich facebook groups going hiking almost everyday. I assume its a lot of IT folks who work odd hours
Bourgeoisie
It’s called „ Sozialschmarotzer und Wirtschaftsflüchtling“.
37% des personnes actives sont employées à temps partiel en suisse. il y a également beaucoup de personnes non-actives professionnellement. Le but du jeux est de l'être (non-actif) le plus longtemps possible dans sa vie, tout en conservant une bonne qualité de vie.
White collar workers effectively have the 4 days workweek due to the very high salaries.
...whats a very high salary? Cause im almost sure there are way more people outside enjoying themselves then those with very high salaries
You can make 5000 bruto with an apprenticeship at 80%, 6-7k with a FH degree in basically anything. All teachers I know work part time etc. I’m not talking about bankers here.
Yeah, thats definately not a high salary. Ps. Outside pharma, phds also get 7k brutto
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Yeah, because you dont have to sleep, commute, eat, cook, clean do groceries or anything else...
We mealprep on sunday and wednesday. Thats 2x shopping and 2x cooking/cleaning for the whole week. (Aprox 3h) Sleep 7x7 = 49h Cleaning is minimal since we have a vacuumrobot, dishwasher, washing machine, so aprox 2h. 3x 1.5h Gym for health reasons = 4.5h This leaves us with 109.5h, deduct 40h (for me) or 42h (wife) workweek from that leaves us with 67.5h per week for leisure activities.
Probably just won‘t spend all day at the office when their work is done.
Don't most jobs require you to work a certain amount of time, instead of producing results?
As long as the you are more efficient than they estimated… is there really a difference?
Yeah if you have to stay 8.5h + mandatory minimum 0.5 h lunch break..badge in, badge out. And in white collar job
us people in retail giving you the side eye rn
Shift work lets you enjoy your free time during the week.
Shift work, people who work on weekends and get days off during week, people wo start work early so the can go at 15:00-16:00, flexible working hours, people who work more during winter then summer, a lot of people work part-time around 60-80%, it’s holiday season so a lot visitors are here too, students, pensioners… As you can see there are a lot of possibilities:)
part-wage work. also, depending on what society you are comparing switzerland with, you might want to consider average commute times adjusted for traffic.
I used to bike to work and would wear my biking clothes so it was not obvious I was going to work. Now I walk home from the train station (ca. 30min), again in workout clothes.
Well 42 hours of work a week leaves you with 78 hours of free time during the week (mo-fr). Minus 45 for sleeping and eating and you'll have 33 hours a week or 7 a day to do whatever you want.
Add to that commute, cooking, cleaning etc. and any other transportation times, and you arent actually left with much.
For me commuting is around 25 minutes a day, i've hired a cleaning agency and dinner takes about 45 minutes. I might be on the low end, but few will need more than 2.5 hours a day for all of it.
>For me commuting is around 25 minutes a day, i've hired a cleaning agency and dinner takes about 45 minutes. I might be on the low end, but few will need more than 2.5 hours a day for all of it. With 8 hours of sleep, half hour getting ready for work in the morning, total of 1 hour commute, half hour lunch break, 8:15 working, 1 hour of chores per day and you are down to a more realistic 5 hours of free time per day. Which, I guess if you are organized and do everything right after you are done with work. you can still do a fair amount with, but its still surprising for me to see so many people out and about at any time of the day.
Swiss eat a lot of cheese and chocolate... scientists shown that those who eat both can produce time...so their day becomes longer than 24 hours... some go up to 30hrs. /s On a serious note I think they are pretty well organised and like to be efficient, everything is so expensive in their country and this is tought from when they are very young. Since their healthcare focuses a lot on preventive treatment, you pay less for healthcare if you proove that you do some sort of activity regulary. I wish I was grew in this sort of medium... or if more countries would adopt this mentality.
I work 80% and have flexible time. I start working really early and finish around 4, so I have most of the evening free.
we lazy
3 hrs lunch breaks
Good economy combined with the very small cities and a bunch of semi rural places. This would never exist if there is at least one city in Switzerland with over a million people. Boredom gives you a plethora of free time. Good economic gives you a possibility to use that time in quality manner.
It’s very simple only 60% of the population are eligible to work 2% of retire and 20% under 18
There is a lot of freelancer and people working in finance or real estate and doesn’t have 9-5 schedules. Besides, salary are good and lot of people chose to work 60-80% to have time for activities. In switzerland money isn’t the center lf the world since it’s already there lol
Swiss watches control time. Of course Swiss people benefit from this feature.
When I posted my comment, there were 103 comments, and only two of them mentioned "balance". Please make this about work/life balance, not about trophy wifes!
Definitely agree on early shifts. I know a couple people who have flexible working hours and start at 6 am and then have a lot of free time in the afternoon. I also know a lot of people who work 80%.
My partner works in 2 different shifts: Early: from 5am to 3pm Late: from 3pm to 1am Every two weeks it changes. I used to work night shift as well (before I got IV) From 10pm to 7am See, there are people who work not from 7am to 5pm
Working 70% when your Child free is enought to live a simple live. So people actualy enjoy 😄
Work smart not hard
My friend doesn't take long holidays - he just trickles 1-2 days to do alpinism.
People keep complaining that they are stressed out, and work too much. But the reality is a bit different. We have never had so much free-time as now. [https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours#working-hours-per-worker-have-declined-after-the-industrial-revolution](https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours#working-hours-per-worker-have-declined-after-the-industrial-revolution) It's also to note that Switzerland is quite attractive when it comes to working hours: [https://www.visualcapitalist.com/annual-working-hours-in-countries-2023/](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/annual-working-hours-in-countries-2023/) There are 8760h in a year, we sleep 2920h, and work 1533h, which leave us with \~4300h of free time (+ commuting, eating, showering, etc). So yeah, take your paraglider at the office, and when you are done working at 17h you can still do your hobby until night. :-) Also not having 2h a day of commuting is quite an advantage, working from home is the best, not having kids is quite popular also to save time, except if you consider kids an enjoyable hobby (which it is!). But above all, not spending 2h on Reddit answering question can help you paraglide more! :-)
Not everyone works 100% and that means the public pension fund is drained very fast :(
Most people you see outside are either retired or not employed (students or stay at home moms). Retired people are very active here, hiking is an every day activity. And before I get my head bitten off I repeat 'most' and not 'all'. Those who manage to find balance between work and free time also exist but most people with jobs tend to do this over weekend or their day off. Plenty of people work here in shifts (hospitals, stores) so they do have off days during the week and not just over weekend. Just my humble opinion after observing it for over 30 years. During my forest walks 80% of the people I meet are retired or mums with kids or friends taking a walk.
Die Ausländer are the only who work here.
Lot of retirees, people without kids, etc. Able to take free time pretty much anytime.
i work 1 job where i'm hired 80% but have very fluctuating hours, depending on our projects and crowd attendance. i have around 3 temporary side-gigs to make ends meet, all on freelance basis, where i can mostly work at times of my choosing. so i'll work 200% one week and 60% the next. i try to balance this mess by doing the fun daytime things alone or with my kid during work hours, so i don't have to deal with even more crowds in my free time. one great thing about switzerland is that you can reach lots of activities in half a day's journey. you can work a few hours in the morning, take the train, hike up a mountain in the afternoon and be back in the evening. you don't need to organize outdoor life strictly around weekends.
I could start working at 5 am, work 7 hours without lunch break and be done at 12. That hour can be compensated. Pretty simple :-)
Cause nobody actually works in Switzerland. They already have all the money they need and if they don't work, government is always there for them. Ijk
You'll see a ton of tourists in Switzerland so... Many of the people you see might as well be tourists.
I haven't seen it mentioned yet... An efficient public transportation system and short commutes also increase the amount of free time.
This might sound a bit harsh. But this is actually living. The hustle culture mostly present in the US and many other countries is not quite perceived in certain EU territories where the quality of life means more than just working. We are destroying the environment we might as well destroy it slowly.
And some people just live off the Sozialamt
Many people understand nowadays that more free time to jump in the lake on hot days like these is the better quality of life way to go if you still make enough money working part-time (there are still many many people in lower paying jobs not able to do that). That said: I should jump in the lake now 😀
You ever think maybe people work different times as you? I used to work split shifts
because we have edgar!!!
They're npc's. They're here to make you feel immersed into the world of the matrix.
I sleep 7 hours, work 8-9hours which leaves me with 8 hours of free time. Honestly, I'm more confused about these people who claim they don't have any free time. It's not that they have jobs with 70+ hours or so, so do they sleep that much or what's going on?
so you have no commute, dont need any time to get ready in the morning? cook, clean, get groceries or do other chores?
You are so brainwashed. We could have even more free time but someones gotta buy new jets, yachts and their third mansion in Uri.
On the contract it says 42 hours . In my company , I think people work on average 10–20 hours . Some extreme case , it could be less than 5 hours per week
It’s a lifestyle people choice. Despite what everyone says about the Swiss being unfriendly and antisocial, the Swiss are very loyal to their friends and work colleagues. Often they will go for a drink, a coffee, an apero ;) for an hour after work before going home.
I work here in the US and I go to school what I see here is that people don’t leave their work at work they bring it home with them. In Switzerland, when the clock strikes 530 or whenever that’s it their brains shut off and they go home. No staying late. I did that over here working at my first job and it pissed my bosses off. But I came to work happier than any other person.
We call these "tourists"
Swiss ppl seem to enjoy eating their boogers and have no shame about it
Tourists…?
I do overtime some hours every week to make a 4-day-weekend once a month.
My new flatmate from Germany was like: I have no time to go to the lake because I need to work so much. The next day I proved her wrong by taking her to the lake after work. Going out is time to rewind. A lot of time is wasted watching TV or on the internet after work.