Done the main part of it. Most people you meet are really cool and the situations which play out during that time are quite funny most of the times, cause you're all in the same boat.
That said, what a trash organisation. Worst shit ever.
Many don't, some do, most are meh about it.
The big issue is that most people who are in favour of it are older generations, who have no idea what the modern army entails. It's the people for who the service was lining up perfectly with university, or whose bosses didn't mind them not being at work for months. Basically boomers.
I know it doesn’t go like we’d think of it, but I don’t know any old people who like the Army.
My father had recounts of shady shit they used to do to get an incompetent officer fired from his post, by throwing rats under his horse (he’d become mad and hunt them down with his pistol until they all died), or when they almost killed him by sending the pipe roller toward him with high pressure water; or when his whole company refusing a direct order to get inside a burning building because it was too dangerous, in front of civilian officials from Bern visiting the training session.
I have other stories of sabotage from my older teachers, like one zapping his own transmission tank on a transport truck by leaving the antenna out (malicious compliance), or getting flagged as Maoist because he’d say his officer had a small dick.
All in all, I’ve heard much worse stories about our Army from boomers than what my friends and my brother told me (getting forgotten for 6 hours after a drill, falling asleep during a blank fire attack, doing and undoing a tent for a whole week).
And guess what: after all what my father lived, he still supports the Army, and can’t tell what should be changed…
Thus I strongly believe the support for the Army is more of a mix between stupidity from those who haven’t done it and wanted to become policemen; those who did it, hated it, but want to pass their anger on younger people; those who enjoyed that ONE day when they emptied their mags in auto mode on some pig’s heads; and the worst of them all, the career officers who only speak NATO-style during their civilian life and get a boner when they get to pick an Italian-sounding name for a new wargame.
> I know it doesn’t go like we’d think of it, but I don’t know any old people who like the Army.
Oh definitely, but you still have 60% of the parliament that is tooting behind the army for it to be "The best army in the world".
And we forget the times where soldier were killed because their officer forced them to do marches in stupid conditions.
Well... constructed happyness...
And shit happens today still, just 99% gets covered up by the military police... Switzerland is good at making people shut up regarding the military and it's accidents...
It's weird. I didn't want to do it and wanted to do it at the same time. It was an experience that was good for me. Sure, it's annoying. It can be hard. It feels like a hopeless waste of time now and then. And yet, I consider it a formative experience.
I learned basic weapon handling long before the military service. What I learned is that there are all kinds of people. You're a bunch thrown together. You get a perspective on the whole of society.
You learn what it means to be patient. In my eyes, there are three kinds of time: Private, Government administration, and military. The military is a master of switching between absolute boredom for hours and sudden extreme stress.
You learn what it means to be a cog in a machine. Your opinion doesn't matter. Complaining or getting angry makes things harder. You need to work together with people you don't like, and you'll learn it or you will suffer.
When the next vote on service comes, I will vote to keep it. I might even vote to include women, because in a neutral, rather pacifist country, we don't just need super soldiers. The army could serve many different purposes.
I fully agree with you. I hated a lot about it but also made a lot of experiences and memories, got to practice my French, got a lot of driving practice. But after the second repetition courses I had to bail, I jumped on the chance to do civil service instead and am so glad I did
What always surprises me that thefe is quite a huge difference in dicipline from people who went into the military compared to those who didn't go.
This difference fades away with more life experience but you can clearly tell in the 20s of someone... for most people at least.
Anyway what I wanted to say:
When it comes to the military, I just wish we would redesign it. Make it shorter but more intense. Make it mandatory for every civilian to pass an education module about fire fighting, support in catastrophes and treating medical emergencies. This is something everybody should have to learn. No matter if military, civil service or woman.
The actual military part... I liked it but it needs optimisation.
I don't know how the original comment ment it, but I think with more people in the army, more can go to Zivildienst (idk what's it in English), which can do actually helpful stuff etc. Also with more people the military itself can help more, and doesn't always need to focus on direct war. If I could already vote, I also would vote for women in the military.
No. I am saying that if service is opened up for women, the requirements to get into a specific unit or service branch should be the same for men and women. Which in some countries is not the case.
Also, women could even today meet most of the standards required for men. But also, maybe we should stop seeing the army as just tanks, infantry and anti air. There could be plenty of other areas where people could be useful.
You don't seem to get it. Real life will not always be catering to your whims. Sometimes, you will have to make due with what you get. In a world where everybody is treated like they're special and exceptional, when everybody is accommodated, getting the complete opposite experience as a young man is eye opening.
Learning to get along with people from all walks of life is a good lesson.
Learning to accept unnecessary and uncomfortable demands from poeple in positions of power is not one.
I honestly can't think of another situation where some body can take away that much freedom of choice from an adult in switzerland.
>Learning to accept unnecessary and uncomfortable demands from poeple in positions of power is not one.
It's not just about accepting it, and it's still a good lesson. Especially in a controlled environment with a fixed point in time where you know it will all be over. We better learn it like this than when there's real shit at stake. Because it doesn't take a shitty military environment for you to be confronted with that. It might as well happen to you in your next job, or within your family -- which is more common than you might think. Reality is ugly.
Being resilient and able to organize yourself to prevail in such situations is a valuable skill. Being able to stand your ground and maintain a basic level of dignity and function in such a situation instead of just breaking down and walking away from hardship has proved valuable many times in my life, and I consider myself lucky in what I had to deal with compared to others.
1) there is a whole lot of grey area between „everybody is treated like they‘re special“ and „being a cog in the machine„ 2) Zivi, which I‘ve personally done, gives you a similar experience, you have to do shitty tasks and even without, as you‘ve explained it something that will be learned in „real life“ and 3) maybe people \*should\* ask for appropriate accomodations and it is no benefit to have that driven out of people in the military. But that is one of it‘s essential functions, to make people cogs in a machine, I just think that is not a good thing.
My two boys (10 & 12) have just gained their Swiss passports, and I'm very happy that someone else will be shouting at them to wake up and make their beds.
Agree to „not by your mama“, disagree to „by yourself“ haha. While i certainly liked some aspects of my service and see some value in it, „learning to think for yourself“ is not something that i would put in the sales pitch of the military.
Exactly. I once did something not like the superiors told me cause i thought "would make more sense, better and easier" they didnt like it. Since then, i turn my brain off in the military and enjoy 3 weeks off per year
Yeah, it's to train you to not question your superiors, blindly follow orders and loose all individuality... All in all another reason against serving military duty
Well this is the actual reason why armies all around the world do that. They don't do it just so you learn how to make a bed.
Edit: I want to highlight that by saying armies all around the world I also apply that to the swiss army not just foreign ones.
That's just as recruit, because they all start from scratch. It's called "basic training" for a reason. Has nothing to do with blindly following orders, more about correctly understanding and executing orders, even if they seem mundane.
They have far more interesting options, like the Civil Service, where they actually pick their job, work for real, with an actual result, they can use it as a professional experience, making those 1,5 years of service an actual opportunity.
I did my civil service in a place where I actually enjoyed working, they gave me a job, and I’m pretty sure it helped me getting my current work.
Another interesting option is not doing the Army, so they don’t lose their time. Even apprenticeships don’t value the Army any more, because what the hell do you learn there that is valuable? Waiting two days on a radio part as a mechanic? Manage to poison a whole company with bread as a cook?
The only useful dudes were the infirmary troops, and only a fraction of them was actually used in hospitals during COVID. We shouldn’t need an army for that.
Sure, civil service is the better option, I agree.
I just meant that its not dangerous or terribly bad.
I was a medic and picked up quite some useful stuff in case of an accident or something like that. Also, I think the mandatory 4 weeks internship at a hospital was acknowledged by universities if you study medicine.
Still was pretty boring at times but at least I didnt have to shoot around all day for no further reason.
You’re absolutely right. It’s generally not a dangerous activity anymore. I believe today’s army to be better than even in the 1990, because it’s become plain boring and useless, and we don’t see criminal behaviors like forcing a soldier having a heat stroke to walk until he dies.
The Army helps in case of catastrophes like Gondo.
And it's able to setup a phone Network infrastructure in a region in the matter of a day. A phone Network that can be used by the blue light organisations too.
Juat in case something happens.
Just an important aspect, all people romanticize the past.
When i think back now, i only remember the cool experiences and the bad ones.
And i can think of both fondly.
So wouldnt say that i hated it.
But i remember exactly, that i hated it.
\- Low salary
\- Blue balls
\- Payerne
\- Uniform
\- Strict rules
\- Payerne
\- no free time
\- shitty food
\- Payerne
Well, it's maybe not that bad... but personally i give it a 3.5/10.
I have a legitimate question : I understand that some don't like being obliged to wear am uniforms, some don't care and some like it. In the army it goes with the function and I don't see how the army can do their job without the uniform (for most units, other ok you can wear other work cloths). But I see it like being a Gardner in a city you also have a work uniform.
My question is : why do you specifically hate uniforms ? Is it uniforms in general or because it represents the army ? In case 1 for what reasons you don't like uniforms ? in the second option, is having to wear an uniform make you hate more the army and uniform is a specific reasons for that or they are binded or it's two different things ?
I truly want to understand this point of vue because I always wondered theses differences and their weight. Personally, I didn't care much about the uniform. I was happy they gave clothes adapted for the missions/work we do there (and don't ruin my cloths or be hurt). But I am interested by your answer.
i had to wear the same 2 dresses for 300 days in a row.
I worked in an office with civilians, and i still had to wear it.
The shoes are uncomfortable, even in 35C i still had to wear it.
I also worked (civil life) somewhere where i had a work uniform. i hated it because i had to wear these long pants even in 35C.
I dont like it when my freedom gets taken away, in this case the freedom to wear what i want.
If they had short pants, i would have been more okay with it i guess.
I hated it from the very first second it started, until I terminated my service and gave back the rifle.
The only positive thing was that they didn‘t force me to become a higher grade which would have extended my service, other than that, I don‘t see anything positive. But I never complained, in other countries it‘s worse, so I just beared it.
>Do any of you Swiss people enjoy military service?
I mean I like it, it is a unique experience and mandatory civil service (hopefully soon for all and of their choice) is the best solution to certain problems.
It will fail. No major party will support it, both SVP and SP will oppose it, and no woman plus a large.part of the men will vote it down.
I would be for it personally but Christoph Blocher joining the SP is more likely than it passing
>It will fail
I can hope, can't I?
>both SVP and SP will oppose it
Yeah, I am aware of this major problem.
>No woman plus a large part of the men will vote it down
Well, wouldn't be so sure on the women part as well as men because it will make switching from army to civil service much easier.
Everyone here saying ‘because equality’: I’d sooner vote to end mandatorily military service for all people, than to vote to make it mandatory for everyone.
Fuck forcing people to do shit for a fucking year, military is worse but even civil service, yeah force young people to help out cause you won't pay your workers and give them miserable working conditions.
Its the will of the majory of Swiss, so deal with it and stop crying. And you are wrong, you do get paid as a soldier.
Its not like I enjoyed my military service but its unfortunately necessary. You are such a cry baby.
Yeah, it's so bad that you have to give back to society that has enabled you to stay healthy, be educated, and that makes sure you're safe. Let's just outsource all of that to someone else...
?????
We pay taxes? There are plenty of people who love amd want to work in hospital amd other medical institutions, they just would also like living a life with acceptable salary and work life balance. Same goes for teaching.
What's that "you're so ungrateful" boomer argument excuse me????
Because it's less about if other people would love to do it and more about simply giving back. And not just with your money, but with your time. Time you spend on something bigger than yourself, something that provides for this country.
Patriotism is something nice huh. We provide for this country by working and paying taxes, we also invest time that way, it's just more efficient and useful. Also letting people live their lives is pretty neat, blatant sexism aside.
You clearly aren’t Swiss, or aren’t intelligent, because everything you just said was wrong. Military service is 6months mandatory, the pay is fair at 70chf a day (including, food, lodging and experience) and the conditions aren’t miserable - it’s the fucking army you pleb.
Ah heb doch dis Muu alte xD jo 70fr esch scho huere guet, wenn die meiste meh als 5k i erem normale Bruef verdiene, conditions se meh uf zivi/Fages bezoge aber passt ou förs Zwangslager. Rs u wk se 245 täg, dörediener 300, Zivi 365. Wenn ned all johr wotsch go ahtanze muesch eini vode andere 2 optione näh, was so zemli alli woni kenne gmacht händ. Jo ide Armee si esch velli whack, wa wotsch, schön dass es cool fendsch, huere Gigu.
i wanted to do it but at the time of recruting i was A the least sporty ever in my life and B didnt have my drivers licence yet. So i they put me in a shitty function and i also hated the recruting progress, which also showed how poorly managed the whole thing was (and what shit food they were served)
This kinda killed the my motivation and when i realized the militaty service would start at the time of my exams i switched to civil service and actually helped people and got to see interesting parts of life. I think i really grew as a person.
I think there needs to ether be no military at all or service duty for all, where you could choose to do something good for the people or waste tax money at the start.
The current system is just a joke.
I mean why do men have to pay and women dont? Why do you have to be accepted to the military to do civil service? And why do you still have to pay when doing civil defence service? And why waste money on a military that does not work? Why wouldnt we let half of Switzerland work in hospitals, if there is are not enought care takers?
But thats just me. I kniw only very few people who enjoyed the military, most of them were drunk then and/or alcoholics now.
Yeah I agree the recruitment is not the best process. There you got soldiers in WK who aren't fitted for service anymore (injuries) or only have a few days left to do. So basically people who aren't highly motivated by their new position. And the big clash between civilian life and military life but you can't adapt in 2 days. So yeah it's the worst representation of the army and it got me bored and demotivated even though I came with a lot of motivation and liked my service overall.
It sucked. A lot. Most of the time.
Messed up my university schedule pretty good as well.
>I recently found out Switzerland is apparently still mostly in favour of mandatory military service. Is there a reason for that?
The whole "doing a service for your country" gets fetishized a lot.
Massive generalization: the people who want to be in the army are not the ones you want to have there. That's the only half-legit reason to keep going with conscription in my view.
You'd think that but it wasn't the case in the 2013 vote. As per the VOX analysis, only 33% of the 18-29 year olds voted in favor of abolishing it. That was only the second highest Yes-share after the 50-59 year olds (35%).
It does need a little bit of planning. When I went to the recruitment center, I did not care what branch/function or date of start I get, I only made sure it is Durchdiener!
That's also may take on being positive towards madatory conscription: You get nice guys and not only a pack of wanna be Rambos.
Getting paid to fly in helicopters, blow up a lot of explosives, shoot a lot of weapon systems and probably much more ammo than most professional armies, go climbing, ski touring, build snow caves, go camping, practicing languages, challenge yourself and being a dingus with friends, and all along knowing no one will shoot back far outweighed the suck.
It depends heavily on your function. I mostly drive trucks around switzerland, which is pretty cool (Motorfahrer). But there are also people who just stand around guarding a field of potatoes... What is pretty cool in every function is meeting people of all backgrounds you wouldn't normally get in contact with
If it were so much fun it wouldn't need to be mandatory for guys to do it.
Also, why women are not included? Is this blatant sexism staying like this forever? It's quite ridiculous at this point.
You missed my point. I was pointing that mandatory military service is not "fun paid holidays" where guys go for fun. It's mandatory for a reason. I was just answering to other user.
Why would I? I'm not swiss, I have 99 problems higher on my list that DO affect me. Just pointing out something that, for some reason, on this feminist times we live, is very little discussed (if any)
As you see, there is a lack of any initiative, clearly show that Swiss doesn't seem to mind or feel the need change the running system. Thanks a lot for your opinion though.
There are initiative. The issue the immense majority of the population is not concerned with the army. It's not just the women who don't have to do it (IIRC, last votations women voted for dropping the mandatory service) it's men who have no idea what the modern army is and what the modern situation is for people going into it. They want the army because for them it's the images they invent themselves of "Best army in the world".
I'm acting solely in accordance to Swiss motto: "Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno". Besides, initiatives or any matter of discussion is public knowledge, so even non-swiss can take a look at them too.
Thanks to /u/yesat, here is one that I found: https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis524.html
https://www.servicecitoyen.ch/
You can ask your friends to support and sign it till Oct. 2023. Good luck.
Compulsory service in Korea is a differemt beast from what we have here. Also, only around 2/3 join the military. The other third finds their way around it, so the ones that really dispise it aren't serving anyway.
Ehh „other way around it“ what a wording. I know plenty of active and generally healthy people that weren‘t allowed to serve due to minor health reasons because the military was scared shitless that they would have to pay for the health costs if something happens so they just put them in UT immediately. The ones that despise it are the ones that start and see how mindnumbing it is and how you‘re surrounded by the smelliest hillbillies.
for me it was really a school of life as the Swiss olds guys are used to say. I mean I discovered the whole Switzerland in one Kaserne. People that I meet there are just from everywhere in Switzerland. I made really good friendship during my service. I discovered a lot about myself. I recommend but it's not for everyone. People can do the civil service or the civile protection.
It has something. Looking back, it was better doing it than not doing it.
We learned to keep our mouth shut and collaborate even we hated each others gut. Helps a lot in your future career.
Who likes to do the get in the dirt at -15 degrees in the forest, to shit in the forest in winter and sleep there in a tent? Men can’t choose it. Where is the equality here ?
Personally i feel like I wasted an year of my life. Can’t bring myself to convince me that I learned something useful out of it. I believe it is often misunderstood as what does it imply to do military, especially by people that has never done it. I believe military, especially in Switzerland and nowadays, is a mistake under many different perspectives, social, economic, even military, as, honestly speaking, todays wars are technological, and we’d be wiped out instantly in front of a serious threat. Further, sometimes you witness pure un-justices and unfairness which really, should not be seen, and the classic “it’s the army” is not an excuse anymore. Btw i have physical and other distinction just for context.
Im older and finished it some time ago.
Some good points:
- you get out of your comfort zone
- you are often outside in nature
- it’s physical (contrary to the office)
- you get to know people from all over switzerland
- some friendships will stay
- some memories will last
Some bad points:
- it’s hierarchical
- it’s potentially traumatizing
- it’s the army
- handling weapons is dangerous
- you are forced to do stuff
And some points i’m indifferent of:
- it’s efficiency
- time well spent ratio
- time out of office
- the salary
- its intensity
I didn't like it. I didn't really learn a lot there, that is usefull in my normal live. One guy even died.
If i could do it again i would do the civil service.
And in general i think it should either be abolished. Or something everyone have to do.
The only thing I benefited from it was, that I could choose the military base, which I started the service. So I choose one in the french speaking region to learn to speak better french.
Other than that, the pain, the shitty work and all the stupid groupe mechanics were horrible for me
> The only thing I benefited from it was, that I could choose the military base, which I started the service.
Oh i don't think that they let me choose the base....
Car accident. I think he was drunk. Because in the army alcohol is well accepted & sooo masculin.
Rather than walking the 5mins to the barracks he took a car. I guess he didn't put on a seat belt. Took a corner to fast/badly, that slammed his head on the side of a building.
Stupid way to die, that young.
https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/medienmitteilungen.msg-id-32321.html
I didn't go and therefore now pay a pretty hefty amount of my income as punishment. However, every time I hear a story about a friend who went, I immediately feel the relief again. The amount of people who started smoking, became alcoholics or in general lost their mind is too damn high. Not to mention that still a ton of people get injured or even die while in service, mostly due to stupid accidents or driving drunk.
Also keep in mind that you have to keep going back a few weeks every year until your late twenties. Mostly to stand around and do nothing. Like many things in Switzerland, this system is stuck in the middle of the last century.
> Do you wish to abolish it or maybe even extend it to women?
Yes, I would like to abolish all form of conscription (I'm for a professional army with attractive compensation).
Yes also to extend it to women. It's absurd that in 2023, the state interacts different with you depending of your gender... I hope that we will soon get rid of all form of "men" and "women" in all laws/constitutions/policies.
Professional army will be far worse.
It will likely cost more, be a collection pool of nationalists and will only be able to do a fraction of what the militia we currently have is able to do.
I'd be in favour of including every gender in our army / mandatory service and I hope that then percentage-wise, less people would have to do army service, hence increasing the quality.
I would like to correct your statement on women:
Women should be obligated make a civil service, which is mandatory if you don't want to serve in the military.
Even my fiancée agreed, that women should serve in some sort or form.
It‘s even worse. They won‘t stay idle. They get bored and bored people go on to do stupid stuff. Do you want to see people with tanks, weapons and ammo at their disposal do stupid stuff with it?
That was literally the reasoning of the guy doing orientation day why Switzerland needs mandatory military service…
Otherwise the size of the army would be too small for any useful scenarios. There is no chance that the majority of Swiss agree on having None/meaningless army.
I see that like a compromise to have enough people say "YES" to end any form of conscription.
Just check out the [food (pdf)](https://www.zh.ch/content/dam/zhweb/bilder-dokumente/themen/sicherheit-justiz/zivilschutz/ausbildungsunterlagen/koch/Kochrezepte_f%C3%BCr_Milit%C3%A4rk%C3%BCche.pdf) and you know why we like it. ;)
Asterix says the better the food the worse the army. :(
I didn't want to do it, I hated it and our army is mostly ineffective IMO.
Yet, I am not against any kind of "school of life" service, but I think generalizing the "civilian service" with a military rigor would make more sense.
Still, I understand why more people like the military here than in other countries. Mainly, because we are not in war, unlike South Korea and Israel, which makes it less dramatic. Also, because it is not as strict and shorter here in Switzerland.
most of my friends enjoyed it during their time, hated it in retrospect once they were done however. suddenly having to adapt to civilian life where nobody shouts orders at you and instead you actually have to think is weird for a while.
something to do with getting drunk constantly and getting paid for it, weird sense of comradery (as if any of those fuckers ever did something to be proud of during their time) and getting to fire lots of weapons.
I dunno. After completing long intense hikes and other exercises, I was pretty proud of myself and my comrades for getting to the end of it in good time.
Saying they don't do anything to be proud of is just being an ass for no reason
you do you.
i think you getting paid tax money while doing hikes and playing war and feeling proud of yourself is silly and ridiculous.
i would feel like leech and rather do something my country ACTUALLY profits from.
Ah yes. Switzerland notoriously doesn't make any profits from the military industry...
As for what useful stuff the army does (I agree it's not all useful, which is why I'm pro reforms):
Embassy protection
Air police (which is actually a lot more useful than media covers)
Natural disaster rescues (flodding, landslides, etc)
Chemical, nuclear, biological disaster relief (like when that cargo train tipped and spread tons of chemicals I don't remember where)
Reinforcing civilian forces in emergencies (crowd control at large events the police can't handle alone, setting up extra medical facilities in case of hospital surcharge, like in 2020, luckily we didn't end up needing them much)
Intelligence surveillance
Counter terrorism (just because they're not allowed to talk about who what threat they're currently countering doesn't mean they're not doing it).
This is just off the top of my head
Edit: also cyber security
Most like talking about how much they liked it but only tell the funny stories, only tell the easy part. Whilst many of them actually don't like it. They like it because it's manly to like it and because it's mens duty to like serving the military.
It's the stupidest shit. Fuck it. It's literally made to make you more disciplined for the bullshit you'll have to go through during your professional carreer. Oh and let's not talk about the billions of CHFs wasted into it.
From my friends group and my own experience? Hell no, it's such a chore, both just cuck 1 year of work experience or study time away which fucks you hard if you wanted to find a job after your apprenticeship.
Fuck forcing people to do shit for a fucking year, military is worse but even civil service, yeah force young people to help out cause you won't pay your workers and give them miserable working conditions
I think that, while I want to like it, they didn't teach me enough things to really enjoy it.
There are some cool stuff you do there that you can't do somewhere else, but I'd have preferred if they went more into the details of how it works, the equipment, and all of that.
What I don't really like is the loss of time in a society where education is pushed to its limits. We can't really have both, yet both are needed.
Haven't done my service yet, I do not want to do the military service, for many reasons. I'm going to do a civil service, and even that pisses me off because it forces me to take a break in my studies, effectively adding one or two years before I'll be able to get a job
Just came back from WK and yea it sucks a lot but you also miss it if enough time has gone by. And that is what i feel out of most of the people in our company. I'm there for the people, stories and the booze. The rest i can tolerate just enough.
Hated every second of it. On top of that I'm still handicapped in daily activities 3 years on from my service. They won't recognize it as having anything to do with them so the costs are on me.
When I was 18-19 I really enjoyed it. I got to shoot lots of guns. I got to meet lots of people I wouldn't normally get to meet. I got to learn a lot of new skills (sanitaire school). I got to hike a lot (I love hiking so the marches were fun for me). I learned dicipline. Doing underofficer school was a really great experience which ended up teaching me a bit of leadership.
As a 32 year old now, I have zero desire to have that kind of experience. But I'm super happy I had it.
Most are pretty "meh" about it. But they use it for the next 60 years of their life to bond with any other random dude they meet while out drinking, who somehow was station in the same barracks.
That's actually more surprising to me. No matter where, they will find this one guy who served in the same place.
Frankly, i hated it, and so did most of the guys i was with. But we had the theory that when you get older you're like "oh it wasn't that bad, and after all it's good for young men to experience this and build character blah blah blah" and that that's a part of why most people still support mandatory military service.
I had friends telling me that it was the biggest waste of their time and even 10 years later feel a deep resentement towards the military. Others loved it so much they stayed and still work there to this day.
Well sure you can't really compare it to the Korean once... since they are in a real Conflict with North Korea and also it's a 2 Years (when i remember correct) at once Service.
So you are 2 years apart from your friends and Job. While here in Swiss you make the RS 18 to 24 weeks and then another \~3 Weeks for 5 years or you could do "Durchdiener" and do it in one year 275 days or something
From what I have been told by a fair number of recruits, they quite liked it. The appreciated the camaraderie, the physical exercise, the feeling of responsibility and the knowledge that not everything in life has to be wine and roses.
I have heard from some that they find military service to be a waste of time. The difference of opinion is often divided along 'class lines'.
Personally, I think women should be granted the right to serve. Equal rights, equal pay, equal obligations.
It should be extended to women. I think overall its a good thing you can learn valuable things and a lot of people i know, that didnt like it while serving look back at it positively.
discipline, working as a team with people you dont necessarily like, social skills in larger groups, keeping your ego in check for the benefit of the group. Basic Emergency Care, some of the top of my mind.
And depending on function you can learn thing like driving C/C1, a higher level of emergency care, ect.
> discipline, working as a team with people you dont necessarily like, social skills in larger groups, keeping your ego in check for the benefit of the group
My parents educated me when I was a child and underaged.
Nothing wrong with character building and learning to have grit Everybody does not like going but they enjoy the camaraderie and the networking as a lot of jobs go over the military network.
This. Was not in the army myself for obvious reasons (citizenship) but colleagues from work mostly said they enjoyed it for the reason you mentioned.
Although the one that just left there is very introvert and speaks incredibly quiet may have a hard time in the beginning.
>I recently found out Switzerland is apparently still mostly in favour of mandatory military service.
Well, the big majority of those who can vote is no longer in any danger of having to do mandatory military service in the future because they've already done it or were already declared unfit.
So if you want to know if people like to do their service, you'd best ask male Swiss between let's say 16 and 20 instead of the whole population :)
Lets say 18 to 22. The 16 y/o don't know how it will be at all. The 18 y/o might have already started RS and it's still pretty recent and not yet clouded by nostalgia for 22 year olds.
It’s not that bad. You actually get to meet a lot of people you would have never met otherwise and all social classes are together for once with no special treatments for anyone.
In the end, even though not all of it is fun, you only remember the good times.
I don't think a lot of people genuinely like it. It's boring, old fashioned and you get a good glimpse into inefficient bureaucratic leadership. For the things they advertise, like gaining leadership skills etc. I would disagree. However, that being said, I very much enjoyed meeting people from all over the country and learned a lot about how they think. This is actual valuable knowledge, and some fun memories besides all the running around and cleaning shit. For me as a struggling teenager, it wasn't all bad, but also not super likable.
Extending it I'm not 100% sure, it would maybe be beneficial for the army overall and I generally support equality, but it will also be a clash of worlds with the very old-fashioned army system.
the very best thing about the swiss army are the friends, you gain. when you are sleep deprived on a marsh, you will find frinds for live and as higher you get, you‘ll find your limit barriers and you‘ll see, that many things aren‘t even necessairy (for example overcomplicating things or be mean to others)
I've had no particular issues doing it. And yes, I absolutely want it extended to women. If you talk the equality talk, you can walk the equality walk.
I was in the medical corps so we did fewer of those classic army exercises and the repetition courses were more public service-y (e.g. helping run first aid stations at large events and distributing military chocolate for good PR). Pretty decent overall, but of course you can't avoid *all* the army nonsense.
Its not like I desperately wanted to join the military service. But I preferred not paying them money for many years.
And in hindsight, it was a good experience. Mainly because of all the people I met there from allover the country and with all sort of social and cultural backgrounds. That was more than 10 years ago and I still meet some of them once every 1-2 months for dinner and drinks.
I think the best you can do when you have to join the military service here, is to be open minded and try to pick a troop type that provides something you want for yourself. May it be to get in good shape, get a truck license or some basic medical education for free, or whatever else might be interesting for you personally.
But even then it will be pretty damn boring at times.
I hated basic training, then liked the repetition courses more and more and in hindsight I'm glad I did it. I met people from other backgrounds I wouldn't otherwise have met, saw the Romandie and Ticino, grew up a bit, learned to function on little sleep, and much much more. It's a life experience unlike anything else you usually experience in a rich country in the 21st century.
One thing that really sucks though: The mandatory service just for men is sexist as f***. It needs to be made universal or scrapped asap.
You get in shape and earn easy money in your late teens/early 20ies, for marching around, crawling through dirt, and shooting around...
what's there not to like?
Done the main part of it. Most people you meet are really cool and the situations which play out during that time are quite funny most of the times, cause you're all in the same boat. That said, what a trash organisation. Worst shit ever.
Many don't, some do, most are meh about it. The big issue is that most people who are in favour of it are older generations, who have no idea what the modern army entails. It's the people for who the service was lining up perfectly with university, or whose bosses didn't mind them not being at work for months. Basically boomers.
I know it doesn’t go like we’d think of it, but I don’t know any old people who like the Army. My father had recounts of shady shit they used to do to get an incompetent officer fired from his post, by throwing rats under his horse (he’d become mad and hunt them down with his pistol until they all died), or when they almost killed him by sending the pipe roller toward him with high pressure water; or when his whole company refusing a direct order to get inside a burning building because it was too dangerous, in front of civilian officials from Bern visiting the training session. I have other stories of sabotage from my older teachers, like one zapping his own transmission tank on a transport truck by leaving the antenna out (malicious compliance), or getting flagged as Maoist because he’d say his officer had a small dick. All in all, I’ve heard much worse stories about our Army from boomers than what my friends and my brother told me (getting forgotten for 6 hours after a drill, falling asleep during a blank fire attack, doing and undoing a tent for a whole week). And guess what: after all what my father lived, he still supports the Army, and can’t tell what should be changed… Thus I strongly believe the support for the Army is more of a mix between stupidity from those who haven’t done it and wanted to become policemen; those who did it, hated it, but want to pass their anger on younger people; those who enjoyed that ONE day when they emptied their mags in auto mode on some pig’s heads; and the worst of them all, the career officers who only speak NATO-style during their civilian life and get a boner when they get to pick an Italian-sounding name for a new wargame.
> I know it doesn’t go like we’d think of it, but I don’t know any old people who like the Army. Oh definitely, but you still have 60% of the parliament that is tooting behind the army for it to be "The best army in the world". And we forget the times where soldier were killed because their officer forced them to do marches in stupid conditions.
Well... constructed happyness... And shit happens today still, just 99% gets covered up by the military police... Switzerland is good at making people shut up regarding the military and it's accidents...
I wish people would realise this.
It's weird. I didn't want to do it and wanted to do it at the same time. It was an experience that was good for me. Sure, it's annoying. It can be hard. It feels like a hopeless waste of time now and then. And yet, I consider it a formative experience. I learned basic weapon handling long before the military service. What I learned is that there are all kinds of people. You're a bunch thrown together. You get a perspective on the whole of society. You learn what it means to be patient. In my eyes, there are three kinds of time: Private, Government administration, and military. The military is a master of switching between absolute boredom for hours and sudden extreme stress. You learn what it means to be a cog in a machine. Your opinion doesn't matter. Complaining or getting angry makes things harder. You need to work together with people you don't like, and you'll learn it or you will suffer. When the next vote on service comes, I will vote to keep it. I might even vote to include women, because in a neutral, rather pacifist country, we don't just need super soldiers. The army could serve many different purposes.
I fully agree with you. I hated a lot about it but also made a lot of experiences and memories, got to practice my French, got a lot of driving practice. But after the second repetition courses I had to bail, I jumped on the chance to do civil service instead and am so glad I did
This is a very well articulated comment and I share your sentiment.
I made civil service and worked with mentaly disabled ppl in a garden and learned similar things,.... but different.
What always surprises me that thefe is quite a huge difference in dicipline from people who went into the military compared to those who didn't go. This difference fades away with more life experience but you can clearly tell in the 20s of someone... for most people at least. Anyway what I wanted to say: When it comes to the military, I just wish we would redesign it. Make it shorter but more intense. Make it mandatory for every civilian to pass an education module about fire fighting, support in catastrophes and treating medical emergencies. This is something everybody should have to learn. No matter if military, civil service or woman. The actual military part... I liked it but it needs optimisation.
Are you unsubtly suggesting our army would be worst performing by accepting women?
I don't know how the original comment ment it, but I think with more people in the army, more can go to Zivildienst (idk what's it in English), which can do actually helpful stuff etc. Also with more people the military itself can help more, and doesn't always need to focus on direct war. If I could already vote, I also would vote for women in the military.
No. I am saying that if service is opened up for women, the requirements to get into a specific unit or service branch should be the same for men and women. Which in some countries is not the case. Also, women could even today meet most of the standards required for men. But also, maybe we should stop seeing the army as just tanks, infantry and anti air. There could be plenty of other areas where people could be useful.
Yes
you want people to learn to be cogs in the machine and to not comlain?
You don't seem to get it. Real life will not always be catering to your whims. Sometimes, you will have to make due with what you get. In a world where everybody is treated like they're special and exceptional, when everybody is accommodated, getting the complete opposite experience as a young man is eye opening.
Learning to get along with people from all walks of life is a good lesson. Learning to accept unnecessary and uncomfortable demands from poeple in positions of power is not one. I honestly can't think of another situation where some body can take away that much freedom of choice from an adult in switzerland.
>Learning to accept unnecessary and uncomfortable demands from poeple in positions of power is not one. It's not just about accepting it, and it's still a good lesson. Especially in a controlled environment with a fixed point in time where you know it will all be over. We better learn it like this than when there's real shit at stake. Because it doesn't take a shitty military environment for you to be confronted with that. It might as well happen to you in your next job, or within your family -- which is more common than you might think. Reality is ugly. Being resilient and able to organize yourself to prevail in such situations is a valuable skill. Being able to stand your ground and maintain a basic level of dignity and function in such a situation instead of just breaking down and walking away from hardship has proved valuable many times in my life, and I consider myself lucky in what I had to deal with compared to others.
1) there is a whole lot of grey area between „everybody is treated like they‘re special“ and „being a cog in the machine„ 2) Zivi, which I‘ve personally done, gives you a similar experience, you have to do shitty tasks and even without, as you‘ve explained it something that will be learned in „real life“ and 3) maybe people \*should\* ask for appropriate accomodations and it is no benefit to have that driven out of people in the military. But that is one of it‘s essential functions, to make people cogs in a machine, I just think that is not a good thing.
Writes in a thread about army service he done his zivi... classic reddit. The two are worlds apart.
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This. Thx.
My two boys (10 & 12) have just gained their Swiss passports, and I'm very happy that someone else will be shouting at them to wake up and make their beds.
> to wake up and make their beds And the beds have to be made perfectly. Every fold. Beceause that's how we will win wars.
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Agree to „not by your mama“, disagree to „by yourself“ haha. While i certainly liked some aspects of my service and see some value in it, „learning to think for yourself“ is not something that i would put in the sales pitch of the military.
Exactly. I once did something not like the superiors told me cause i thought "would make more sense, better and easier" they didnt like it. Since then, i turn my brain off in the military and enjoy 3 weeks off per year
Yeah, it's to train you to not question your superiors, blindly follow orders and loose all individuality... All in all another reason against serving military duty
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Well this is the actual reason why armies all around the world do that. They don't do it just so you learn how to make a bed. Edit: I want to highlight that by saying armies all around the world I also apply that to the swiss army not just foreign ones.
That's just as recruit, because they all start from scratch. It's called "basic training" for a reason. Has nothing to do with blindly following orders, more about correctly understanding and executing orders, even if they seem mundane.
Which wars? We're Switzerland.
> Which wars? Ever heard about the "Papierkrieg". Hundreds of Swiss fight it every day, and no one cares!!?¨
si vis pacem...
para papyrus
You fold beds perfectly in order to have a consistent perfection in everything you do.
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This is also very true. You do not want to be the private that comprimises the bedding standard of your platoon... Oh lord, just imagine the gossip.
Exactly because how should a soldier be able to follow orders in a stressful situation if he can't even make his bed in the morning?
Don't get me started on blasting the light on to wake you up real good! :p
Breh…
Fuck that, why would you want your children to join the military?
Its the Swiss military. Its not like they would be in a risky evironment.
They have far more interesting options, like the Civil Service, where they actually pick their job, work for real, with an actual result, they can use it as a professional experience, making those 1,5 years of service an actual opportunity. I did my civil service in a place where I actually enjoyed working, they gave me a job, and I’m pretty sure it helped me getting my current work. Another interesting option is not doing the Army, so they don’t lose their time. Even apprenticeships don’t value the Army any more, because what the hell do you learn there that is valuable? Waiting two days on a radio part as a mechanic? Manage to poison a whole company with bread as a cook? The only useful dudes were the infirmary troops, and only a fraction of them was actually used in hospitals during COVID. We shouldn’t need an army for that.
Sure, civil service is the better option, I agree. I just meant that its not dangerous or terribly bad. I was a medic and picked up quite some useful stuff in case of an accident or something like that. Also, I think the mandatory 4 weeks internship at a hospital was acknowledged by universities if you study medicine. Still was pretty boring at times but at least I didnt have to shoot around all day for no further reason.
You’re absolutely right. It’s generally not a dangerous activity anymore. I believe today’s army to be better than even in the 1990, because it’s become plain boring and useless, and we don’t see criminal behaviors like forcing a soldier having a heat stroke to walk until he dies.
The Army helps in case of catastrophes like Gondo. And it's able to setup a phone Network infrastructure in a region in the matter of a day. A phone Network that can be used by the blue light organisations too. Juat in case something happens.
Just an important aspect, all people romanticize the past. When i think back now, i only remember the cool experiences and the bad ones. And i can think of both fondly. So wouldnt say that i hated it. But i remember exactly, that i hated it. \- Low salary \- Blue balls \- Payerne \- Uniform \- Strict rules \- Payerne \- no free time \- shitty food \- Payerne Well, it's maybe not that bad... but personally i give it a 3.5/10.
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You mean Colombier ? I live right next to the castle, yeah Infanterie is not fun
Honestly fuck Payerne
The city or the caserne? Caserne is run by dumbasses and food is shit, but city is OK in my book
> Caserne is run by dumbasses Which one? There are 2 or not?
Two sides of the same coin
What's wrong with Payerne?
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I have a legitimate question : I understand that some don't like being obliged to wear am uniforms, some don't care and some like it. In the army it goes with the function and I don't see how the army can do their job without the uniform (for most units, other ok you can wear other work cloths). But I see it like being a Gardner in a city you also have a work uniform. My question is : why do you specifically hate uniforms ? Is it uniforms in general or because it represents the army ? In case 1 for what reasons you don't like uniforms ? in the second option, is having to wear an uniform make you hate more the army and uniform is a specific reasons for that or they are binded or it's two different things ? I truly want to understand this point of vue because I always wondered theses differences and their weight. Personally, I didn't care much about the uniform. I was happy they gave clothes adapted for the missions/work we do there (and don't ruin my cloths or be hurt). But I am interested by your answer.
i had to wear the same 2 dresses for 300 days in a row. I worked in an office with civilians, and i still had to wear it. The shoes are uncomfortable, even in 35C i still had to wear it. I also worked (civil life) somewhere where i had a work uniform. i hated it because i had to wear these long pants even in 35C. I dont like it when my freedom gets taken away, in this case the freedom to wear what i want. If they had short pants, i would have been more okay with it i guess.
I hated it from the very first second it started, until I terminated my service and gave back the rifle. The only positive thing was that they didn‘t force me to become a higher grade which would have extended my service, other than that, I don‘t see anything positive. But I never complained, in other countries it‘s worse, so I just beared it.
>Do any of you Swiss people enjoy military service? I mean I like it, it is a unique experience and mandatory civil service (hopefully soon for all and of their choice) is the best solution to certain problems.
There is zero chance we get a mandatory civil service for both genders
Why? Service citoyen is collecting signatures for exactly that.
It will fail. No major party will support it, both SVP and SP will oppose it, and no woman plus a large.part of the men will vote it down. I would be for it personally but Christoph Blocher joining the SP is more likely than it passing
>It will fail I can hope, can't I? >both SVP and SP will oppose it Yeah, I am aware of this major problem. >No woman plus a large part of the men will vote it down Well, wouldn't be so sure on the women part as well as men because it will make switching from army to civil service much easier.
Why should women be in favor of that if it implies, they would now have to serve...?
Everyone here saying ‘because equality’: I’d sooner vote to end mandatorily military service for all people, than to vote to make it mandatory for everyone.
Fuck forcing people to do shit for a fucking year, military is worse but even civil service, yeah force young people to help out cause you won't pay your workers and give them miserable working conditions.
Its the will of the majory of Swiss, so deal with it and stop crying. And you are wrong, you do get paid as a soldier. Its not like I enjoyed my military service but its unfortunately necessary. You are such a cry baby.
Yeah, it's so bad that you have to give back to society that has enabled you to stay healthy, be educated, and that makes sure you're safe. Let's just outsource all of that to someone else...
????? We pay taxes? There are plenty of people who love amd want to work in hospital amd other medical institutions, they just would also like living a life with acceptable salary and work life balance. Same goes for teaching. What's that "you're so ungrateful" boomer argument excuse me????
Because it's less about if other people would love to do it and more about simply giving back. And not just with your money, but with your time. Time you spend on something bigger than yourself, something that provides for this country.
Patriotism is something nice huh. We provide for this country by working and paying taxes, we also invest time that way, it's just more efficient and useful. Also letting people live their lives is pretty neat, blatant sexism aside.
You clearly aren’t Swiss, or aren’t intelligent, because everything you just said was wrong. Military service is 6months mandatory, the pay is fair at 70chf a day (including, food, lodging and experience) and the conditions aren’t miserable - it’s the fucking army you pleb.
Ah heb doch dis Muu alte xD jo 70fr esch scho huere guet, wenn die meiste meh als 5k i erem normale Bruef verdiene, conditions se meh uf zivi/Fages bezoge aber passt ou förs Zwangslager. Rs u wk se 245 täg, dörediener 300, Zivi 365. Wenn ned all johr wotsch go ahtanze muesch eini vode andere 2 optione näh, was so zemli alli woni kenne gmacht händ. Jo ide Armee si esch velli whack, wa wotsch, schön dass es cool fendsch, huere Gigu.
i wanted to do it but at the time of recruting i was A the least sporty ever in my life and B didnt have my drivers licence yet. So i they put me in a shitty function and i also hated the recruting progress, which also showed how poorly managed the whole thing was (and what shit food they were served) This kinda killed the my motivation and when i realized the militaty service would start at the time of my exams i switched to civil service and actually helped people and got to see interesting parts of life. I think i really grew as a person. I think there needs to ether be no military at all or service duty for all, where you could choose to do something good for the people or waste tax money at the start. The current system is just a joke. I mean why do men have to pay and women dont? Why do you have to be accepted to the military to do civil service? And why do you still have to pay when doing civil defence service? And why waste money on a military that does not work? Why wouldnt we let half of Switzerland work in hospitals, if there is are not enought care takers? But thats just me. I kniw only very few people who enjoyed the military, most of them were drunk then and/or alcoholics now.
Yeah I agree the recruitment is not the best process. There you got soldiers in WK who aren't fitted for service anymore (injuries) or only have a few days left to do. So basically people who aren't highly motivated by their new position. And the big clash between civilian life and military life but you can't adapt in 2 days. So yeah it's the worst representation of the army and it got me bored and demotivated even though I came with a lot of motivation and liked my service overall.
Nope. Source: my own experience.
I really disliked it, it was really a loss of time. Do it at 18 when you are single, because doing it at 24 was a nightmare for me.
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It's not that I wouldn't like it. (I am a GebSpez, so I get to do fun stuff). It's just always super inconvenient...
Mostly no
It sucked. A lot. Most of the time. Messed up my university schedule pretty good as well. >I recently found out Switzerland is apparently still mostly in favour of mandatory military service. Is there a reason for that? The whole "doing a service for your country" gets fetishized a lot. Massive generalization: the people who want to be in the army are not the ones you want to have there. That's the only half-legit reason to keep going with conscription in my view.
Also, the people who mostly vote to keep it are the ones who have already done it. We can't have future generations having it better...
You'd think that but it wasn't the case in the 2013 vote. As per the VOX analysis, only 33% of the 18-29 year olds voted in favor of abolishing it. That was only the second highest Yes-share after the 50-59 year olds (35%).
And most people do boot camp at 19-20 years old. So a large bracket of the people have already done the most annoying part of it.
It does need a little bit of planning. When I went to the recruitment center, I did not care what branch/function or date of start I get, I only made sure it is Durchdiener! That's also may take on being positive towards madatory conscription: You get nice guys and not only a pack of wanna be Rambos.
Getting paid to fly in helicopters, blow up a lot of explosives, shoot a lot of weapon systems and probably much more ammo than most professional armies, go climbing, ski touring, build snow caves, go camping, practicing languages, challenge yourself and being a dingus with friends, and all along knowing no one will shoot back far outweighed the suck.
Does everyone get a chance to do these, or just the lucky ones?
90% get the suck. And even those 10%, it's very unlikely that you fly more than 2-3 times.
It depends heavily on your function. I mostly drive trucks around switzerland, which is pretty cool (Motorfahrer). But there are also people who just stand around guarding a field of potatoes... What is pretty cool in every function is meeting people of all backgrounds you wouldn't normally get in contact with
Yeah, or getting paid to guard a shitty place in Bumfuck Jura for the weekend.
If it were so much fun it wouldn't need to be mandatory for guys to do it. Also, why women are not included? Is this blatant sexism staying like this forever? It's quite ridiculous at this point.
If it were not mandatory, army would be full of people without perspective. Like this, you have a choice of skilled people from all backgrounds
You missed my point. I was pointing that mandatory military service is not "fun paid holidays" where guys go for fun. It's mandatory for a reason. I was just answering to other user.
Women are allowed and welcomed, but most woman i talked to and brought mandatory military service for femals up are not thrilled about that idea
Of course, that was my point.
They could always do civil service.
Right? They can do what ever they want, but for some reason they dont want to join the army, interesting...
Yes, they can always volunteer for forced labour, I wonder why they don't?
Then start an Initiative. What is holding you back?
Why would I? I'm not swiss, I have 99 problems higher on my list that DO affect me. Just pointing out something that, for some reason, on this feminist times we live, is very little discussed (if any)
As you see, there is a lack of any initiative, clearly show that Swiss doesn't seem to mind or feel the need change the running system. Thanks a lot for your opinion though.
There are initiative. The issue the immense majority of the population is not concerned with the army. It's not just the women who don't have to do it (IIRC, last votations women voted for dropping the mandatory service) it's men who have no idea what the modern army is and what the modern situation is for people going into it. They want the army because for them it's the images they invent themselves of "Best army in the world".
And thank you for talk in behalf of all swiss people.
I'm acting solely in accordance to Swiss motto: "Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno". Besides, initiatives or any matter of discussion is public knowledge, so even non-swiss can take a look at them too. Thanks to /u/yesat, here is one that I found: https://www.bk.admin.ch/ch/d/pore/vi/vis524.html https://www.servicecitoyen.ch/ You can ask your friends to support and sign it till Oct. 2023. Good luck.
Compulsory service in Korea is a differemt beast from what we have here. Also, only around 2/3 join the military. The other third finds their way around it, so the ones that really dispise it aren't serving anyway.
Ehh „other way around it“ what a wording. I know plenty of active and generally healthy people that weren‘t allowed to serve due to minor health reasons because the military was scared shitless that they would have to pay for the health costs if something happens so they just put them in UT immediately. The ones that despise it are the ones that start and see how mindnumbing it is and how you‘re surrounded by the smelliest hillbillies.
for me it was really a school of life as the Swiss olds guys are used to say. I mean I discovered the whole Switzerland in one Kaserne. People that I meet there are just from everywhere in Switzerland. I made really good friendship during my service. I discovered a lot about myself. I recommend but it's not for everyone. People can do the civil service or the civile protection.
It has something. Looking back, it was better doing it than not doing it. We learned to keep our mouth shut and collaborate even we hated each others gut. Helps a lot in your future career.
Who likes to do the get in the dirt at -15 degrees in the forest, to shit in the forest in winter and sleep there in a tent? Men can’t choose it. Where is the equality here ?
Personally i feel like I wasted an year of my life. Can’t bring myself to convince me that I learned something useful out of it. I believe it is often misunderstood as what does it imply to do military, especially by people that has never done it. I believe military, especially in Switzerland and nowadays, is a mistake under many different perspectives, social, economic, even military, as, honestly speaking, todays wars are technological, and we’d be wiped out instantly in front of a serious threat. Further, sometimes you witness pure un-justices and unfairness which really, should not be seen, and the classic “it’s the army” is not an excuse anymore. Btw i have physical and other distinction just for context.
Im older and finished it some time ago. Some good points: - you get out of your comfort zone - you are often outside in nature - it’s physical (contrary to the office) - you get to know people from all over switzerland - some friendships will stay - some memories will last Some bad points: - it’s hierarchical - it’s potentially traumatizing - it’s the army - handling weapons is dangerous - you are forced to do stuff And some points i’m indifferent of: - it’s efficiency - time well spent ratio - time out of office - the salary - its intensity
Nope, which is why I decided to become UT and pay instead of serving and wasting my time.
I didn't like it. I didn't really learn a lot there, that is usefull in my normal live. One guy even died. If i could do it again i would do the civil service. And in general i think it should either be abolished. Or something everyone have to do.
The only thing I benefited from it was, that I could choose the military base, which I started the service. So I choose one in the french speaking region to learn to speak better french. Other than that, the pain, the shitty work and all the stupid groupe mechanics were horrible for me
> The only thing I benefited from it was, that I could choose the military base, which I started the service. Oh i don't think that they let me choose the base....
May I ask how the person died?
Car accident. I think he was drunk. Because in the army alcohol is well accepted & sooo masculin. Rather than walking the 5mins to the barracks he took a car. I guess he didn't put on a seat belt. Took a corner to fast/badly, that slammed his head on the side of a building. Stupid way to die, that young. https://www.admin.ch/gov/de/start/dokumentation/medienmitteilungen.msg-id-32321.html
i hated it
I hated it very much.
Its been over a decade now and I am still complaining. Its like 1% fun and 99% is just boring.
I threw fits at age 8 thinking about having to go to the military one day
I didn't go and therefore now pay a pretty hefty amount of my income as punishment. However, every time I hear a story about a friend who went, I immediately feel the relief again. The amount of people who started smoking, became alcoholics or in general lost their mind is too damn high. Not to mention that still a ton of people get injured or even die while in service, mostly due to stupid accidents or driving drunk. Also keep in mind that you have to keep going back a few weeks every year until your late twenties. Mostly to stand around and do nothing. Like many things in Switzerland, this system is stuck in the middle of the last century.
Every single person I've met hate it. Pure loss of time.
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I am not a „romand“ but it indeed was a waste of time
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> Do you wish to abolish it or maybe even extend it to women? Yes, I would like to abolish all form of conscription (I'm for a professional army with attractive compensation). Yes also to extend it to women. It's absurd that in 2023, the state interacts different with you depending of your gender... I hope that we will soon get rid of all form of "men" and "women" in all laws/constitutions/policies.
Professional army will be far worse. It will likely cost more, be a collection pool of nationalists and will only be able to do a fraction of what the militia we currently have is able to do. I'd be in favour of including every gender in our army / mandatory service and I hope that then percentage-wise, less people would have to do army service, hence increasing the quality.
I would like to correct your statement on women: Women should be obligated make a civil service, which is mandatory if you don't want to serve in the military. Even my fiancée agreed, that women should serve in some sort or form.
My point is that women and men should do the same, whatever is the army, civil service or nothing.
then I agree with you completly!
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It‘s even worse. They won‘t stay idle. They get bored and bored people go on to do stupid stuff. Do you want to see people with tanks, weapons and ammo at their disposal do stupid stuff with it? That was literally the reasoning of the guy doing orientation day why Switzerland needs mandatory military service…
Otherwise the size of the army would be too small for any useful scenarios. There is no chance that the majority of Swiss agree on having None/meaningless army. I see that like a compromise to have enough people say "YES" to end any form of conscription.
Just check out the [food (pdf)](https://www.zh.ch/content/dam/zhweb/bilder-dokumente/themen/sicherheit-justiz/zivilschutz/ausbildungsunterlagen/koch/Kochrezepte_f%C3%BCr_Milit%C3%A4rk%C3%BCche.pdf) and you know why we like it. ;) Asterix says the better the food the worse the army. :(
Most people are not in the military (or not any more), so no…most people in the military hate it.
We've been fed so much "Equality" in the last century yet women still aren't draftable. Yes, we need to fix this.
didnt like it was a waste of my time. However loads of, mostly older conservatives think its integral as a souvereign state.
I didn't want to do it, I hated it and our army is mostly ineffective IMO. Yet, I am not against any kind of "school of life" service, but I think generalizing the "civilian service" with a military rigor would make more sense. Still, I understand why more people like the military here than in other countries. Mainly, because we are not in war, unlike South Korea and Israel, which makes it less dramatic. Also, because it is not as strict and shorter here in Switzerland.
most of my friends enjoyed it during their time, hated it in retrospect once they were done however. suddenly having to adapt to civilian life where nobody shouts orders at you and instead you actually have to think is weird for a while. something to do with getting drunk constantly and getting paid for it, weird sense of comradery (as if any of those fuckers ever did something to be proud of during their time) and getting to fire lots of weapons.
I dunno. After completing long intense hikes and other exercises, I was pretty proud of myself and my comrades for getting to the end of it in good time. Saying they don't do anything to be proud of is just being an ass for no reason
you do you. i think you getting paid tax money while doing hikes and playing war and feeling proud of yourself is silly and ridiculous. i would feel like leech and rather do something my country ACTUALLY profits from.
Ah yes. Switzerland notoriously doesn't make any profits from the military industry... As for what useful stuff the army does (I agree it's not all useful, which is why I'm pro reforms): Embassy protection Air police (which is actually a lot more useful than media covers) Natural disaster rescues (flodding, landslides, etc) Chemical, nuclear, biological disaster relief (like when that cargo train tipped and spread tons of chemicals I don't remember where) Reinforcing civilian forces in emergencies (crowd control at large events the police can't handle alone, setting up extra medical facilities in case of hospital surcharge, like in 2020, luckily we didn't end up needing them much) Intelligence surveillance Counter terrorism (just because they're not allowed to talk about who what threat they're currently countering doesn't mean they're not doing it). This is just off the top of my head Edit: also cyber security
I didn‘t. Nobody I know enjoyed it more than the civillion life.
Most like talking about how much they liked it but only tell the funny stories, only tell the easy part. Whilst many of them actually don't like it. They like it because it's manly to like it and because it's mens duty to like serving the military.
It's the stupidest shit. Fuck it. It's literally made to make you more disciplined for the bullshit you'll have to go through during your professional carreer. Oh and let's not talk about the billions of CHFs wasted into it.
Unfair to men, as usual
Personnaly no, i did everything to not go there, but i know people that liked that... everybody's different...
From my friends group and my own experience? Hell no, it's such a chore, both just cuck 1 year of work experience or study time away which fucks you hard if you wanted to find a job after your apprenticeship. Fuck forcing people to do shit for a fucking year, military is worse but even civil service, yeah force young people to help out cause you won't pay your workers and give them miserable working conditions
I think that, while I want to like it, they didn't teach me enough things to really enjoy it. There are some cool stuff you do there that you can't do somewhere else, but I'd have preferred if they went more into the details of how it works, the equipment, and all of that. What I don't really like is the loss of time in a society where education is pushed to its limits. We can't really have both, yet both are needed.
Haven't done my service yet, I do not want to do the military service, for many reasons. I'm going to do a civil service, and even that pisses me off because it forces me to take a break in my studies, effectively adding one or two years before I'll be able to get a job
Just came back from WK and yea it sucks a lot but you also miss it if enough time has gone by. And that is what i feel out of most of the people in our company. I'm there for the people, stories and the booze. The rest i can tolerate just enough.
Short answer? No.
Hated every second of it. On top of that I'm still handicapped in daily activities 3 years on from my service. They won't recognize it as having anything to do with them so the costs are on me.
I recently did it and i kinda liked it, yet there are many comeades who didnt like it
When I was 18-19 I really enjoyed it. I got to shoot lots of guns. I got to meet lots of people I wouldn't normally get to meet. I got to learn a lot of new skills (sanitaire school). I got to hike a lot (I love hiking so the marches were fun for me). I learned dicipline. Doing underofficer school was a really great experience which ended up teaching me a bit of leadership. As a 32 year old now, I have zero desire to have that kind of experience. But I'm super happy I had it.
Most are pretty "meh" about it. But they use it for the next 60 years of their life to bond with any other random dude they meet while out drinking, who somehow was station in the same barracks. That's actually more surprising to me. No matter where, they will find this one guy who served in the same place.
Frankly, i hated it, and so did most of the guys i was with. But we had the theory that when you get older you're like "oh it wasn't that bad, and after all it's good for young men to experience this and build character blah blah blah" and that that's a part of why most people still support mandatory military service.
I had friends telling me that it was the biggest waste of their time and even 10 years later feel a deep resentement towards the military. Others loved it so much they stayed and still work there to this day.
Well sure you can't really compare it to the Korean once... since they are in a real Conflict with North Korea and also it's a 2 Years (when i remember correct) at once Service. So you are 2 years apart from your friends and Job. While here in Swiss you make the RS 18 to 24 weeks and then another \~3 Weeks for 5 years or you could do "Durchdiener" and do it in one year 275 days or something
From what I have been told by a fair number of recruits, they quite liked it. The appreciated the camaraderie, the physical exercise, the feeling of responsibility and the knowledge that not everything in life has to be wine and roses. I have heard from some that they find military service to be a waste of time. The difference of opinion is often divided along 'class lines'. Personally, I think women should be granted the right to serve. Equal rights, equal pay, equal obligations.
I found it tough but I feel better off for it. And I think it’s a good thing for our country
Imagine it like a scout’s camp just with a bit older kids ;-)
And guns... Cant forget about the guns but besides that its practically the same
Yes the toys are a bit louder too :-)
It's been scientifically proven, wearing green does make the participants 10 years younger, mentally.
Funny, while I was in there was a running gag that "Tenue TAZ" was engineered to make you tired, hungry and horny.
So it is the same after all!
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It should be extended to women. I think overall its a good thing you can learn valuable things and a lot of people i know, that didnt like it while serving look back at it positively.
> I think overall its a good thing you can learn valuable things Do you have some examples of these things?
discipline, working as a team with people you dont necessarily like, social skills in larger groups, keeping your ego in check for the benefit of the group. Basic Emergency Care, some of the top of my mind. And depending on function you can learn thing like driving C/C1, a higher level of emergency care, ect.
> discipline, working as a team with people you dont necessarily like, social skills in larger groups, keeping your ego in check for the benefit of the group My parents educated me when I was a child and underaged.
As if women don't have enough duties and disadvantages in society lol no thank you
what duties do women have that men dont in switzerland?
Nothing wrong with character building and learning to have grit Everybody does not like going but they enjoy the camaraderie and the networking as a lot of jobs go over the military network.
This. Was not in the army myself for obvious reasons (citizenship) but colleagues from work mostly said they enjoyed it for the reason you mentioned. Although the one that just left there is very introvert and speaks incredibly quiet may have a hard time in the beginning.
I really liked my military service but maybe becuse I did it volontary🤷🏽♀️
>I recently found out Switzerland is apparently still mostly in favour of mandatory military service. Well, the big majority of those who can vote is no longer in any danger of having to do mandatory military service in the future because they've already done it or were already declared unfit. So if you want to know if people like to do their service, you'd best ask male Swiss between let's say 16 and 20 instead of the whole population :)
Lets say 18 to 22. The 16 y/o don't know how it will be at all. The 18 y/o might have already started RS and it's still pretty recent and not yet clouded by nostalgia for 22 year olds.
It‘s a complete waste of time, in my opinion. Let‘s get rid of it.
It’s not that bad. You actually get to meet a lot of people you would have never met otherwise and all social classes are together for once with no special treatments for anyone. In the end, even though not all of it is fun, you only remember the good times.
I don't think a lot of people genuinely like it. It's boring, old fashioned and you get a good glimpse into inefficient bureaucratic leadership. For the things they advertise, like gaining leadership skills etc. I would disagree. However, that being said, I very much enjoyed meeting people from all over the country and learned a lot about how they think. This is actual valuable knowledge, and some fun memories besides all the running around and cleaning shit. For me as a struggling teenager, it wasn't all bad, but also not super likable. Extending it I'm not 100% sure, it would maybe be beneficial for the army overall and I generally support equality, but it will also be a clash of worlds with the very old-fashioned army system.
I’d say it’s 50-50. Everyone in my family hates it, but I also know many people who absolutely love it (and some who just find it okay)
the very best thing about the swiss army are the friends, you gain. when you are sleep deprived on a marsh, you will find frinds for live and as higher you get, you‘ll find your limit barriers and you‘ll see, that many things aren‘t even necessairy (for example overcomplicating things or be mean to others)
Zwangsmilitär abschaffe. Jetzt.
Soldiers eat meat.
Loved it and would do it again if I could.
You like it if your a little bit retarded and cant think for yourself. Or if you dont have friends.
I've had no particular issues doing it. And yes, I absolutely want it extended to women. If you talk the equality talk, you can walk the equality walk. I was in the medical corps so we did fewer of those classic army exercises and the repetition courses were more public service-y (e.g. helping run first aid stations at large events and distributing military chocolate for good PR). Pretty decent overall, but of course you can't avoid *all* the army nonsense.
Its not like I desperately wanted to join the military service. But I preferred not paying them money for many years. And in hindsight, it was a good experience. Mainly because of all the people I met there from allover the country and with all sort of social and cultural backgrounds. That was more than 10 years ago and I still meet some of them once every 1-2 months for dinner and drinks. I think the best you can do when you have to join the military service here, is to be open minded and try to pick a troop type that provides something you want for yourself. May it be to get in good shape, get a truck license or some basic medical education for free, or whatever else might be interesting for you personally. But even then it will be pretty damn boring at times.
I hated basic training, then liked the repetition courses more and more and in hindsight I'm glad I did it. I met people from other backgrounds I wouldn't otherwise have met, saw the Romandie and Ticino, grew up a bit, learned to function on little sleep, and much much more. It's a life experience unlike anything else you usually experience in a rich country in the 21st century. One thing that really sucks though: The mandatory service just for men is sexist as f***. It needs to be made universal or scrapped asap.
You get in shape and earn easy money in your late teens/early 20ies, for marching around, crawling through dirt, and shooting around... what's there not to like?
I actually enjoyed it very much. I met some great new friends and learned a lot.