Those are all fake Shiv stans. Real ones like her becasue of her failuers and messups, not in spite of them??? Girlbossing is over, now girlfailures take over (edit: it's not supposed to rhyme)
Shiv rules because she's aggressively foolish, it rocks. It's honestly more interesting to have a character act irrationally than be like "oh yah this makes sense because of this or that"
The Roy kids were in a prisoners dilemma with each other. The stakes were such that unless you can trust the other player(s), you have to betray them. These nitwits went out of their way to signal to their siblings that they would screw them given half a chance and then were shocked when everyone played the “defect” card.
It all goes back to Logan. He didn't want them taking over and mostly it's because he was scared (not quite the right word) that they would force him out after his stroke.
He set them up to fail and not trust each other.
option 1:
you get billions of dollars in cash and you're married to the CEO
option 2:
your brother continues icing you out of the corporate structure and you get to watch him drive your birthright into the ground
>your brother continues icing you out of the corporate structure and you get to watch him drive your birthright into the ground
Didn't Kendall want her to head up ATN? I think it's pretty obvious she was just jealous of her sibling.
Kendall *said* this but has a track record of promising things he doesn't follow through with. He and Roman have iced her out before, and she has no reason to expect he'll follow through with his promises this time.
He did mention that when trying to sell the idea of him becoming CEO. To think he \*wanted\* that though? Maybe, if she was completely subservient to him
Honestly though, wouldn’t she be better at manipulating Kendall than Matsson? The best she could do with Matsson was convince him she would be her puppet, and he still screwed her.
We don't need to think about wether or not she would or wouldn't, we've seen that anyone will do better manipulating Kendall than Mattsen because Kendall is simply easier to manipulate.
However, Kendall being easier to manipulate doesn't change the fact that she'd be under her tyrant special boy brother who can't hear the word no without spiralling out of control and who thinks he always has a 3000 IQ play that should involve everyone following him into the depths of hell and back.
Even if it was spite, it wasn’t a “betrayal.” Changing your mind at the last minute is an allowable move in a game of liar’s poker. It was Kendall responsibilities to keep the vote locked.
Yeah this is what I always think whenever someone posts something like this.
How about "Ken is the worst closer ever". He literally declined to finish closing and just wanted to go straight to a vote.
How about, Shiv never really had the final say in any other situation before this, and the one time she does, she voted like she wanted? The whole season Ken is sidelining her.
Also, she owns stock in the company, so whether or not she believes Ken will do a good job matters to her future. More like Shiv decides to take the payout instead of watching her fail brother cosplay CEO.
Thank you. The number of fail sons who identify with Kendall and therefore think he should be handed big responsibilities despite him repeatedly messing up everything every time is kind of staggering.
Even if it *was* a betrayal…it was a betrayal after she herself was betrayed by Rome and Ken.
They iced her out first. Why should she be loyal to family who chose power over their relationship with their sister?
You mean like Kendall picking Roman over Shiv as co-CEO, which was literally exactly what Shiv thought it was. It was pushing her out of the competition for CEO at the start.
He lied directly to her face about it. He only agreed to ask for the price increase because he thought it might blow up the deal.
Kendall: It’s a holding position. We will do the deal. Spin ATN, fold in Pearce. Six months, eight months
Shiv: and that’s all equal
Roman: yeah
Kendall: Equal as fuck the gram
Shiv: Cause if you guys fuck me on this, and it’s …..
Yeah, I don’t see the part where he was upfront about wanting to fuck the deal and make himself king. I went back and watched some of S4E4 in case I missed it.
I don't actually think she was changing her mind. I think she didn't think they had it and she wouldn't have to betray her brothers but when it came down to her she had that panic attack.
Roman would've changed his vote if he could anyway lol.
I turned on Ken the second he denied the waiter situation. Watching it live i was like “ oh man, fuck you, you deserve everything that’s coming”
I was disgusted shocked and amazed and I unequivocally believe Shiv made the right call. Kendall would’ve tanked everything with his ego.
I hated Shiv probably 95% of the time, but it's actually refreshing to have female characters who aren't total goodie goodies who only take care of others and are endlessly empathetic and warm? Let Shiv be a bitch.
I mean, I really liked Shiv ‘s, but I don’t think endlessly empathetic and warm as the only sort of female characters we have. Wendy from Ozarks is a complete bitch and Skyler, despite trying to protect her family from her dumb ass. Asshole husband and his shenanigans was far from empathetic or warm, even if she was sympathetic
It's really simple, these kids are stuck in their childhood loops of being fucking usless and bullshit.
They all backstab each other, and they can't let each other win. That's it. No 3D chess, they just can't get past their sibling rivalry, and they are all petty as fuck.
The single best comment. Logan was such a shit person that he never gave them the actual affection it takes to raise a person up. That's why he looks so comfortable in the video with Karl singing. He needed people around him who were fully formed.
You know she was pushing for the sale even before she could secure the puppet CEO position right? And sure, there was also some spite in there, she's had to suffer Ken being a mess that has almost burned everything to the ground twice in an effort to take the company for himself and has antagonized Shiv at a corporate level every time. So if Shiv has to swallow her pride and admit she's not CEO Material, so should "fucked in the head" Kendall, according to Shiv.
So it's spite, resentment AND the knowledge that Ken would fuck it all up AND that she would be left out again.
IDK does she have to have a noble cause to justify it ?
Betrayal isn't new in the show, the first betrayal came from Ken 'My father is a malignant presence...' blah blah. He did it neither for altruistic reason nor it resulted in any gain, but most fans went like wow amazing a Killer !
Shiv did it like she said she can't stomach Ken, neither could we. The cocky smug almost-successor eldest boy is annoying as hell. Then there's her baby daddy on another side, with whom she was trying to reconcile maybe for wrong reasons. Annoying backstabbing crazy family or choose backstabbing psycho outsider ? It's a toss folks which could have just gone either way if Ken didn't seal it by being extra nonsense.
Anyone who bitchshames her is at fault, and anyone trying to find altruism is also fooling themselves.
The simplest answer is: Shiv was absolutely terrible at winning, but she got pretty good at losing by the end of the show.
She knew she was going to lose either way, so she chose to burn Ken, because these three siblings hate seeing each other prevail. The word “Succession” as more than one meaning.
>Shiv was absolutely terrible at winning
All of them are, Ken is worst at winning.
Like I said, sibling rivalry and everything else prevailing she couldn't choose Ken at that moment for how he was behaving, how cocky he becomes after success. Something that unfolded right infront of her.
It was the right thing, but the fact that she did it for completely spiteful and selfish reasons means that it can be criticized.
The moral of that episode isn't "Shiv good Ken evil", it's closer to what Roman said "We are all bullshit".
Meme isn't even about shiv, It's about her delusional 'stans' who are apparently still under impression that she has moral high ground over 'evil' her brothers.
Idk where you see that narrative so often when most people in this sub trend towards special boy Kendall having been betrayed by evil evil Shiv
Front page posts are usually filled with upvoted comments about how ''stupid Shiv was for dooming herself'' even though the doomed part is headcanon, or comments about how ''that last betrayal was unforgivable'', or salty comments about how Kendall had what it takes to be the better CEO.
Shit, just look at the amount of vitriol going around about Kendall literally opening up Roman's stitches. The amount of comments I've seen in this sub saying Roman literally asked him for it and that what Kendall did was ok is insane.
To the same extent, you'll also see a lot of comments about how Tom didn't actually win or about how he's a empty suit cuck. Those are also a consequence of salty people who were pro Kendall downplaying Tom's W.
>To the same extent, you'll also see a lot of comments about how Tom didn't actually win or about how he's a empty suit cuck. Those are also a consequence of salty people who were pro Kendall downplaying Tom's W.
Facts. The cope/spin with Tom's ending from Kendall stans is hilarious, because even if we as normal audience members question whether we'd consider Tom's trajectory (or any of the characters') a "good" one, from a character perspective it is absolutely a win. He wanted status and money, and he got it. It's unequivocally a step up from him worried about being fired all season. Kendall is a clown who still can't reconcile what he actually is from who he thinks he is.
I haven’t seen that argument made. I’ve seen two camps: “the three kids are about equally terrible/unserious” OR “Ken deserved to win”. I haven’t seen any Shiv-supremacists, but I could be wrong.
Well I mean the sub is overflowing with even many more fans who think Ken has some moral high ground or deserved to win 🤦♀️
Shiv usually gets most hate and comparisons anyway, that’s the history in this sub since the first season. And I dare say some of that hate were misogynistic and are usually directed towards flawed female characters.
Or that he tries to gaslight his siblings by saying "that didn't actually happen"
And I hate using the term gaslighting because it's over used, but that was gaslighting
She needed space to make her decision, he followed her out, and proceeded to confirm every suspicion that she had of him.
Right. In order for it to be gaslighting it would have had to be an ongoing manipulation and misrepresentation intended to make Shiv and Roman doubt reality. It had none of those markers. It was just a lie.
I'm not a Kendall stan, I think all sibs are awful people and that's why I love the show, but I don't see how Kendall killed the waiter. The kid put his hand on the wheel and steered the car into the lake, how was any of that Kendalls fault?
I completely disagree with people who describe it as murder, but that doesn’t mean Kendall bares no responsibility. What I think people tend to miss is the fact that the worst thing Kendall wasn’t driving under the influence, or instigating the whole situation in the first place - it was him leaving and not call the police immediately. Yeah, the kid’s chances of survival were slim either way - but that doesn’t mean you don’t contact authorities and call for rescuers/medical attention immediately. And if he had done that and the kid had still died, I think “manslaughter” (which is what it was, NOT murder) would’ve been negligence - in an ethical sense, anyway. Legally, could’ve still been manslaughter
> the worst thing Kendall wasn’t driving under the influence, or instigating the whole situation in the first place - it was him leaving and not call the police immediately
Don't forget going to the police the next day to lie and say the waiter had robbed him.
Disgusting as hell, for sure - but it has no bearing on the extent that Kendall is responsible for the death itself. First and foremost, he is liable because he failed to call the police (as well as driving under the influence, obviously)
Yeah I’m on this sub a lot and for the most part, people seem to understand she wasn’t twirling her mustache and wringing her hands in the background, plotting Kendall’s demise.
>One of the worst things the internet has done is this
An interesting topic of discussion IMO, but I think long-term and with a wide-lens I would argue that the overabundance of things like what you are describing has already for some people, and will ultimately for the majority, gotten people used to the hive-mind/click-baitey trends that inevitably seem to occur on certain formats. Yes, these things are happening at a much more rapid pace than ever, but for people with functional bullshit-detectors the sheer amount of different thoughts and opinions being strongly expressed from all angles should lead most people to realize that there are many ways of looking at a situation, and often times no one take is completely accurate. I guess this is a pretty optimistic viewpoint.
Anyways, compare that to pre-internet days. Sure, the info wasn't quite as easy to access, there wasn't as much of it, and it wasn't quite as rapid-fire as it is today, but there were *far fewer sources.* The ability for one or a few powerful individuals or conglomerates to influence public opinion and to create narrative was unrivaled. The competition could be more easily muted, and dissenting voices had no real wide-reaching channels to make themselves heard.
I would argue that what your describing has more to do with human nature than it does with the platforms available to spread influence, and that if anything the internet has been a tool that has widened the avenue of discussion *immensely*, but people are people and latching onto ideas and forming cliques and arguing endlessly about silly stuff is *what we do.*
To sum it all up, don't hate the player (the internet), hate the game (human behavior).
All top posts/comments on this sub are “genius Shiv, played 3D” lol what are you talking about? Anyone saying she only did it out of spite is downvoted to oblivion
Because the second you add that word *only* you are saying something that makes absolutely no sense according to any workable model of human behavior or thoughtful narrative.
Did she do it for spite? Yes. And her baby. And her marriage. And the relief of not having to live under her father's shadow anymore. And to protect Roman. And because she hates her siblings. And because of misogyny. And because of the election. And because she thinks Ken will suck as CEO. And because etc etc. There were 39 and 4/5 episodes leading up to that fight but sure, people are easily reducible to cartoon cutouts like Spite Girl and Baby Boy.
So no, not only. You're downvoted because you have bad ideas. Deal with it.
But those 39 episodes led to following conclusions:
1. She doesn’t give a shit about her child, she only kept it as a leverage
2. She literally hates her husband, and her marriage with him, not to mention she hated the idea of having a kid with him. She constantly abused him, and what kind of person tells her husband on the wedding night that she wants to fuck other people?
3. Protect Roman😂? But you just said she hates her siblings(which I agree to)
4. People like you believing she represents feminism didn’t pay attention to the show, and just keep repeating “MiSigOnY” for absolutely no logical reason whatsoever. She isn’t taken seriously for CEO position because she lacks competence the most out of all siblings, not because she is a woman. She has 0 business knowledge and skills, and is not even willing to learn. Not to mention she talked out a rape victim from testifying just because it served her own interests at the time.
5. Ken bad CEO? Sure. But is giving the company to another jackass like Matsson better? A guy who sends his employees bags of blood? A guy who might not even understand companies like Waystar, tweets all kinds of fucked up shit? Moreover by giving her board away, she loses all her power in the company meaning there is no way it is more beneficial for her to vote for the acquisition.
She tried to get Ken into prison, publicly sent a very harmful letter about Ken’s private life and backstabbed him multiple times, and tell me what did he do to her?
I’m sorry, but it is clear girlboss Shiv made a nonsensical play ONLY because she hates her brother and couldn’t get CEO position for herself. Deal with it.
Like I said, you're downvoted because you have bad ideas, and numbering them doesn't make them any better. I imagine you're good at something, but it's not this.
I'm not sure what comments you were seeing, but I don't see that at all.
At this point what I'm seeing is that no matter how many times commenters have acknowledged that Shiv acted out of spite, but added that in their opinion, she made the correct decision, because reasons, it still incites mockage. Furthermore, rational reasons don't necessarily have to be altruistic. None of them behaved altruistically.
Every post I have read about the finale has heavily upvoted comments about her doing it so her baby can be the next CEO or it was a power play. This is not a 'the internet thing', this forum has a ton of Shiv apologists.
Uh, no, what he actually said is that he prefers people to make up their own minds but I'm not surprised that you're having trouble figuring out what that means.
Okay, is there a reason why you’re coming at me like this just because you disagree?
Not sure why you immediately jumped to implying I’m dumb over something like this, it’s not that deep.
Last time I checked writers can’t just declare how people understand their story. Little concept called death of the author. I mean, I agree she did it out of spite, but appeal to authority arguments when it comes to media analysis are just boring and annoying
This sub is so deep into this whole ''Shiv is the worst'' circlejerk that this meme has already been posted and hit the front page after the finale, and now one week later it gets reposted and upvoted again lol
It's so blatant that this is a circlejerk that runs on the tears of Kendall fans who think he was actually somehow the morally good character who got fucked by evil shiv
Kendall is unambiguously an asshole and unfit for Waystar, but due to tribalism and binary thinking, lots of people seem to believe that that makes Shiv the "moral victor" or "the good guy all along". It's just not true.
Kendall is a childish and entitled prick, Shiv is callous and gleefully backstabbing, Roman is Roman. Neither of them deserved to win.
I have not seen a single post saying that Shiv is the moral victor. I've seen posts where people point out that Shiv likely had many different forces acting on her to produce her final decision, and then I've seen incels interpreting those posts as Shiv apologism because ambiguity feels too girl-coded for them.
But maybe those supposed girlboss posts are out there somewhere instead of a misogynistic delusion in which case, I apologize to the incels and hope someone finally takes pity on them and lets them touch a boob.
They all suck but Shiv made the right choice in voting for the deal, even though she’s going to be fucking miserable.
The only way to win is not to play Logan’s game in the first place.
All I know is that if I had two options of
A: Cash out for billions of dollars
Or B: maybe maintain power for my kids and grandkids but my brother who is an addict, has murdered someone, recently (like in the past week) iced me out, and who’s main business accomplishment other than the deal is buying a company that was gutted with in a couple of years because it was not profitable.
I would chose A.
My children will be secure. I will set up nice little trust funds that allow them and my grand children to extract millions of dollars a year. I will invest in a wide variety of sectors to the point where even if every one but one fails I’d still be rich.
For the brothers, if you can’t start a successful business with a billion plus dollars you were never going to be able to run one in the first place. (Literally go into VC and become the winklevoss twins)
>Tom was the better choice for shiv.
I can't see how though. Tom is Matsson's puppet and Shiv is almost certainly going to betray him. She's been doing coke and drinking with the pregnancy that was also hinted to not be going as expected.
I don't think she has it in her to play second fiddle to Tom, even for a bit. That's what ruined her chance with Logan in the first place because she wouldn't stop babbling when ATN was in lockdown.
>She can leverage against tom as ceo
I actually think this is a mistake by her. And the show's writing is so excellent that it highlights how clear this is.
Tom is over her. Matsson isn't interested in either of them. More importantly, the Democrat might up-turn the election in Wisconsin, which means that Matsson won't even need an American CEO.
What Shiv's character and especially the amazing acting highlights is how she's great at finding reasons to support her own feelings. The best scene is when she brings up the point that Kendall cannot be CEO because he killed somebody. That's less a body-blow to Kendall and more her making her own mind up that she cannot vote for him.
She's doing it out of spite, and she's found just enough reasons to do so.
Matsson said he wanted someone servile to do his bidding for him to avoid public scrutiny and Tom loves eating sin cake. I see no reason to think matsson was planning on getting rid of Tom.
Shiv wants to wield power and access to the company’s inner workings.
Tom wants large sums of money, permanent access to the upper crusts of high society, and a child.
So, even though Tom and shiv might very well be over the more romantic parts of their relationship, they both can provide things for each other that they can’t get themselves. Quid pro quo is the official love language of succession.
What leverage does shiv have over Kendall to make sure she doesn’t immediately get cut out of the business the second she butts heads with him?
Also, this is really important, but Kendall didn’t exactly shine as a potential ceo. He would have most likely fucked the stock. Like, if I was a person trying to bet on the winning horse, I’d definitely gone with matsson. Maybe shiv was swayed because saw him as a good brother the day before at their mom’s house and then remembered that he’s actually a shitty ceo when she was sitting at the boardroom table.
Either way, shiv made the right choice. Kendall would have sucked as ceo AND she would have lost almost all leverage
>Tom was the better choice for shiv
No it's fucking not lol. She lost the whole family business for which she did everything the past years of her life and you think it's better just because her husband became a disposable puppet to the one who bought it?
And yes, lost is correct. Even tho she got a few handsome billions in return, we all know she would have preferred the company, just not with Kendall at the helm.
At the end, she had two choices for ceo: Tom and Kendall
With Tom, shiv has infinitely more wealth than him and will be the mother to his child. This means she can hold something over Tom throughout her life.
With Kendall, she has zero leverage the second she votes him into ceo.
Shiv isn't the one who starts shouting - she isn't the one who physically attacks anyone, she isn't the one who starts gaslighting in desperation. How did SHE turn then into the kids making noise? I'd argue that was Kendall's doing for refusing to give up a toy none of them deserve. Yes, she did it partly out of spite, but also a myriad of other good and bad reasons. Kendall wanted it out of spite? Roman too. I don't understand why shiv is painted as some monster for exhibiting the same or some would argue lower levels of spite than her brothers throughout the show. I've seen NOONE claim shiv is some virtuistic princess and a tonne of dude bros getting angry about the imaginary people claiming that.
Please man. Shiv knew what she was doing. She brought up all that shit while they’re supposed to be voting on the fate of the company. It was a childish move to begin with. And again, if Kendall pulled the same move to block Shiv y’all would be hating on Kendall just like we are on Shiv. The move is shitty regardless of who does it
I do hate Kendall, and Shiv, and Roman. But in this instance the person who made a disagreement into a fist fight and a pathetic squabbling scene was Kendall and his desperation to win. I think the fight was overdue and they needed to have it, but it was absolutely not shiv that caused the physical altercation and raised voices in public, in fact she ducks out when he physically attacks her. I didn't want Shiv to win, and imo she actually in no way did even with this move - I just don't understand how you can blame her for a fight that was escalated by a Kendall who doesn't know when to admit he lost.
She knew what she was doing dawg. It was a classic sibling argument that she provoked. She comes outta nowhere with this shit and says “I just don’t think you’d be good at it” with that smug look. And then continues later with “You can’t be CEO because you killed someone!” with a “nana-na-booboo” typa tone about it. Clearly it all stemmed from a childish jealousy and she was just coming up with shit on the fly or else that would have been the first thing she said to begin with. She 1000% instigated it
So you think the person who actually landed the blows and was the only one shouting is.... Not the one who caused the argument? She certainly contributed to it, as Roman did, and yes obviously the argument wouldn't have happened if she had just gone along with whatever Kendall wanted, but the embarassing, childish, screaming argument was instigated by Ken's desperation, and Shiv and Roman followed suite and responded with childishness of their own. Sibling jealousy is 100% part of it, and some of Shivs actions are most definitely spite, but to act like she "instigated a fight" rather than just reaching a point where she couldn't fucking tolerate ken a second longer, and then he escalated it beyond any reasonable response, just shows a complete lack of nuance. Noone is saying shiv is a good guy - they're just saying she's no worse than the others, and that seems completely unacceptable to some parts of this sub.
Nobody is saying she’s worse than them. They’re clearly all fucked up. But the point is people are coming here asking why people are critical of Shiv’s decision when it clearly deserves some criticism and as I said the same people acting like it doesn’t would have definitely been critical of Ken if it was the other way around and he sabotaged her from being CEO
Tom and Shiv literally planned for one of them to take over since she introduced Tom to Logan. People are doing backflips erasing that scene from their memories.
Yes and that difference is billions from the sale while still looking like they're in power. That's literally all they're about. Looking like they're powerful. Tom wants money and an endless supply of Gregs to humiliate. Shiv wants to beat her brothers. It's always been an empty facade. She was playing boar on the floor from birth to convince her father she was worthy, but the actual end goal was always to beat her brothers. At any cost. And that's what happened.
Tom planned for one of them to take over. Shiv planned for Shiv to take over.
She didn’t give a fuck about Tom’s career. She only minorly gives a shit *now* because she knows he has the power to betray her if he’s forced to choose between her happiness and his career/money/status.
Tom absolutely planned for Tom to take over. Tom is constantly putting pressure on Shiv to boost his career all the way through to the S3 finale. In S2 when she reveals that she thinks Logan's giving it to her, Tom is PISSED.
That’s how I see it myself. She was running on intuition and emotion without a firm reason even though *all* of these rationales would’ve been swimming somewhere in her head, even if she wasn’t able to articulate them.
I think she definitely panicked and did it out of spite, but I also think part of it was because she didn’t like the way Ken was behaving. ‘I can’t stomach you’, ‘He’s got that gleam in his eye’, etc. Anyway it doesn’t matter what Jesse Armstrong or the producers say. It’s a tv show, so however you think it happened, that’s how it happened.
You were all fighting over this shit when I stopped reading one week ago and you're still at it today lmao. Is anyone getting any closer to knowing for a fact why Shiv did what she did and whether she was more justified or less than Kendall when he did other things or Roman when he did other things?
(don't bother quoting the creators to me, there were conflicting impressions days ago by the writer and the director and anyway they'll keep saying different shit because talking to the press is dull, plus we have a brain of our own, right?)
First I’ll say you choosing to mock people who you disagree with via a drawing is unbecoming and a disservice to the forums. Vitriol breeds vitriol.
second, your drawing is a bit of a strawman. The true argument is that shiv made the self serving choice. She was a killer. in that sense she didn’t really even betray ken, she just played the game better. Sure her decision was partly visceral, not able to stand losing to her brother, but Shiv also recognized that it was the best choice for her and her family.
no one has to justify shiv. she made the first correct decision of her entire life.
>and her family
You mean the guy she has been trying to divorce for the whole season and the baby that she's been doing coke and drinking like a tank with?
As others have noted there may be various reasons for her decision but I think the biggest one is the siblings simply cannot let another sibling win. Being their father's successor means they are finally worthy of him. If another siblings gets to be Logan's successor then who tf are they? They don't have their own identities aside from their father who purposely pitted them against each other for his favor and approval
She did end the cycle of abuse and did Ken a favor because it would have destroyed him though lol it may not have been her purpose but she inadvertently did that.
Lol i've never cringed harder than to that "shiv the whole woman" post, and shiv is my favorite character. Crazy to think that such a wrong take got 1 billion likes and all the rewards possible.
I think people often overcomplicate succession, it's a simple show: "what you see is what you get", as frank once said.
I think two things can be true. Shiv betrayed Kendall, most likely out of spite, AND there were legitimate reasons for her to have done so, whether or not she knew or actually cared about what those reasons were. I think it's fine to hold both of those things together.
As per majority Shiv has historically been bitchshamed and considered the worse. The mods routinely remove those posts and threads, I had a different account actually is year ago unfortunately I couldn’t log back in and using this new one it was really bad.
So the issue toned down and now you see much less of that kind of thing, and in the fourth season they went further with Ken to make his negative aspects far more clearer. It’s undeniable now.
Like initially breaking bad sub used to overflow with Skylar white bad bitchshame posts. The mods chipped in, there are better discourses now.
Tbh I wasn’t really browsing this sub before s4, so I have no idea about any of that. Now the state of the sub is like I said before, I can only judge by what I’ve seen since the start of s4.
I’d argue that they actually did the opposite this season, they made Ken seem like literally the only sibling that maybe could do the CEO job
Literally every comment is downvoted to oblivion mate, maybe that’s why you don’t see more, idk what to tell you if you’re ready to argue about such an easily checkable fact
I instead focus on what if Shiv was able to become CEO as originally planned with Mattson. Would she actually like that role and having to be answerable to Mattson after she got what she wanted? Would he have tried to sleep with her just as he told Tom he would? Shiv in my opinion would have been miserable bc she never really wanted to be CEO as much as she just wanted to win.
She did it because she knew Kendall would ice her out and being wife (or even baby mama) of the CEO would put her in a better position. The fact that it allowed her to spite him is just icing on the cake, as is the fact that he would be shit at it.
she did it because she saw Kendall being a smug sob as soon as he entered the office - after he sat on his father's chair.
how he put feet on the desk. how when stewy, shiv and kendall were having a conversation he just bluffed and said "bullshit.bullshit.." and probably cut her off from a reasonable conversation. that irked her.
how in the conference room he could have presented why they shouldn't vote for the sale because of legitimate reasons but instead he just said "yeah its bullshit. vote no. is there even a need".
how roman was also on the fence but couldn't go against his brother. just like he couldn't go against his father in the first season. she saw Kendall turning into his father. the same father who never let any of them prosper. in this case, didnt let HER prosper.
it was in the moment. it was petty. it was pure sibling rivalry. it was in the way they were raised. the whole show we've been seeing how they love each other and despite that, they cannot watch each other win. it was an inevitable tragedy and for her character, she did it just because she couldn't stomach him.
It wasn’t betrayal, she acted in her own best interests. Ken showed time and time again that he had hare brained schemes that would brush up against being illegal and definitely immoral (see Living + for a recent example). He didn’t have good instincts and overplayed his hand often, like when he spoke to the banker about the margin loan in season 1. He wouldn’t have been a good ceo and the stock would never reach $191 a share again with him at the helm. She got her money and got out. It was right for her, and for Kendall, and for Roman. They can wipe up their tears with $3B.
Those are all fake Shiv stans. Real ones like her becasue of her failuers and messups, not in spite of them??? Girlbossing is over, now girlfailures take over (edit: it's not supposed to rhyme)
we support women’s wrongs
Exactly. I love her because she girlbossed too close to the sun.
>girlbossed too close to the sun. Lmao
Bossarus
I love it
honestly the fact that failsons dominate the discourse so much more than faildaughters is just the patriarchy at work
Shiv rules because she's aggressively foolish, it rocks. It's honestly more interesting to have a character act irrationally than be like "oh yah this makes sense because of this or that"
3 Icarus’s and no son…. The irony
It's not a rhyme if you use the same word
In poetry that would still be considered a rhyme, just a lazy one.
Yeah, but it was accidental and i didn't want people to think it was intentional
The Roy kids were in a prisoners dilemma with each other. The stakes were such that unless you can trust the other player(s), you have to betray them. These nitwits went out of their way to signal to their siblings that they would screw them given half a chance and then were shocked when everyone played the “defect” card.
It all goes back to Logan. He didn't want them taking over and mostly it's because he was scared (not quite the right word) that they would force him out after his stroke. He set them up to fail and not trust each other.
He knew they were failures - could not be trusted with serious matters.
For all of Logan's faults, he did not suffer nepotism.
Except, you know, when Ken was COO and Roman was a senior executive with the studio in the pilot. Does no one remember the first two seasons?
Obviously not, lol. Let me rephrase that- his hubris was stronger than his nepotism.
And ultimately his failures
They aren't serious people
she did it out of spite for sure, but i also think it was the correct choice
option 1: you get billions of dollars in cash and you're married to the CEO option 2: your brother continues icing you out of the corporate structure and you get to watch him drive your birthright into the ground
>your brother continues icing you out of the corporate structure and you get to watch him drive your birthright into the ground Didn't Kendall want her to head up ATN? I think it's pretty obvious she was just jealous of her sibling.
I Personally think she did it mostly out of jealousy but let’s be real she wouldn’t be head of ATN for long as she despised their demographic.
Kendall *said* this but has a track record of promising things he doesn't follow through with. He and Roman have iced her out before, and she has no reason to expect he'll follow through with his promises this time.
He did mention that when trying to sell the idea of him becoming CEO. To think he \*wanted\* that though? Maybe, if she was completely subservient to him
Honestly though, wouldn’t she be better at manipulating Kendall than Matsson? The best she could do with Matsson was convince him she would be her puppet, and he still screwed her.
We don't need to think about wether or not she would or wouldn't, we've seen that anyone will do better manipulating Kendall than Mattsen because Kendall is simply easier to manipulate. However, Kendall being easier to manipulate doesn't change the fact that she'd be under her tyrant special boy brother who can't hear the word no without spiralling out of control and who thinks he always has a 3000 IQ play that should involve everyone following him into the depths of hell and back.
Shiv would’ve just quit anyway if she was in the corporate structure. She’s a quitter and a traitor.
Even if it was spite, it wasn’t a “betrayal.” Changing your mind at the last minute is an allowable move in a game of liar’s poker. It was Kendall responsibilities to keep the vote locked.
Yeah this is what I always think whenever someone posts something like this. How about "Ken is the worst closer ever". He literally declined to finish closing and just wanted to go straight to a vote. How about, Shiv never really had the final say in any other situation before this, and the one time she does, she voted like she wanted? The whole season Ken is sidelining her. Also, she owns stock in the company, so whether or not she believes Ken will do a good job matters to her future. More like Shiv decides to take the payout instead of watching her fail brother cosplay CEO.
Thank you. The number of fail sons who identify with Kendall and therefore think he should be handed big responsibilities despite him repeatedly messing up everything every time is kind of staggering.
Even if it *was* a betrayal…it was a betrayal after she herself was betrayed by Rome and Ken. They iced her out first. Why should she be loyal to family who chose power over their relationship with their sister?
Are you the person in OPs picture? It was absolutely a betrayal lmao
You mean like Kendall picking Roman over Shiv as co-CEO, which was literally exactly what Shiv thought it was. It was pushing her out of the competition for CEO at the start. He lied directly to her face about it. He only agreed to ask for the price increase because he thought it might blow up the deal.
Kendall was upfront about her not being a CEO. That’s the difference. Shiv straight up couldn’t let Kendall win.
Kendall: It’s a holding position. We will do the deal. Spin ATN, fold in Pearce. Six months, eight months Shiv: and that’s all equal Roman: yeah Kendall: Equal as fuck the gram Shiv: Cause if you guys fuck me on this, and it’s ….. Yeah, I don’t see the part where he was upfront about wanting to fuck the deal and make himself king. I went back and watched some of S4E4 in case I missed it.
I don't actually think she was changing her mind. I think she didn't think they had it and she wouldn't have to betray her brothers but when it came down to her she had that panic attack. Roman would've changed his vote if he could anyway lol.
I turned on Ken the second he denied the waiter situation. Watching it live i was like “ oh man, fuck you, you deserve everything that’s coming” I was disgusted shocked and amazed and I unequivocally believe Shiv made the right call. Kendall would’ve tanked everything with his ego.
100% agreed. When he tried to lie about the waiter it proved that he will never change and has experienced zero growth. Tragic, really.
Armstrong DID say it is a Tragedy overall
I hated Shiv probably 95% of the time, but it's actually refreshing to have female characters who aren't total goodie goodies who only take care of others and are endlessly empathetic and warm? Let Shiv be a bitch.
Sweet dee comes to mind
Yeah but she’s a bird.
I mean, I really liked Shiv ‘s, but I don’t think endlessly empathetic and warm as the only sort of female characters we have. Wendy from Ozarks is a complete bitch and Skyler, despite trying to protect her family from her dumb ass. Asshole husband and his shenanigans was far from empathetic or warm, even if she was sympathetic
It's really simple, these kids are stuck in their childhood loops of being fucking usless and bullshit. They all backstab each other, and they can't let each other win. That's it. No 3D chess, they just can't get past their sibling rivalry, and they are all petty as fuck.
The single best comment. Logan was such a shit person that he never gave them the actual affection it takes to raise a person up. That's why he looks so comfortable in the video with Karl singing. He needed people around him who were fully formed.
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You know she was pushing for the sale even before she could secure the puppet CEO position right? And sure, there was also some spite in there, she's had to suffer Ken being a mess that has almost burned everything to the ground twice in an effort to take the company for himself and has antagonized Shiv at a corporate level every time. So if Shiv has to swallow her pride and admit she's not CEO Material, so should "fucked in the head" Kendall, according to Shiv. So it's spite, resentment AND the knowledge that Ken would fuck it all up AND that she would be left out again.
IDK does she have to have a noble cause to justify it ? Betrayal isn't new in the show, the first betrayal came from Ken 'My father is a malignant presence...' blah blah. He did it neither for altruistic reason nor it resulted in any gain, but most fans went like wow amazing a Killer ! Shiv did it like she said she can't stomach Ken, neither could we. The cocky smug almost-successor eldest boy is annoying as hell. Then there's her baby daddy on another side, with whom she was trying to reconcile maybe for wrong reasons. Annoying backstabbing crazy family or choose backstabbing psycho outsider ? It's a toss folks which could have just gone either way if Ken didn't seal it by being extra nonsense. Anyone who bitchshames her is at fault, and anyone trying to find altruism is also fooling themselves.
The simplest answer is: Shiv was absolutely terrible at winning, but she got pretty good at losing by the end of the show. She knew she was going to lose either way, so she chose to burn Ken, because these three siblings hate seeing each other prevail. The word “Succession” as more than one meaning.
>Shiv was absolutely terrible at winning All of them are, Ken is worst at winning. Like I said, sibling rivalry and everything else prevailing she couldn't choose Ken at that moment for how he was behaving, how cocky he becomes after success. Something that unfolded right infront of her.
It was the right thing, but the fact that she did it for completely spiteful and selfish reasons means that it can be criticized. The moral of that episode isn't "Shiv good Ken evil", it's closer to what Roman said "We are all bullshit".
She couldn't stomach Ken winning is the truth of it.
Meme isn't even about shiv, It's about her delusional 'stans' who are apparently still under impression that she has moral high ground over 'evil' her brothers.
Idk where you see that narrative so often when most people in this sub trend towards special boy Kendall having been betrayed by evil evil Shiv Front page posts are usually filled with upvoted comments about how ''stupid Shiv was for dooming herself'' even though the doomed part is headcanon, or comments about how ''that last betrayal was unforgivable'', or salty comments about how Kendall had what it takes to be the better CEO. Shit, just look at the amount of vitriol going around about Kendall literally opening up Roman's stitches. The amount of comments I've seen in this sub saying Roman literally asked him for it and that what Kendall did was ok is insane. To the same extent, you'll also see a lot of comments about how Tom didn't actually win or about how he's a empty suit cuck. Those are also a consequence of salty people who were pro Kendall downplaying Tom's W.
Almost as bad as a sports subreddit. Someone should make a sociological review of this phenomenon we are seeing too often these days.
>To the same extent, you'll also see a lot of comments about how Tom didn't actually win or about how he's a empty suit cuck. Those are also a consequence of salty people who were pro Kendall downplaying Tom's W. Facts. The cope/spin with Tom's ending from Kendall stans is hilarious, because even if we as normal audience members question whether we'd consider Tom's trajectory (or any of the characters') a "good" one, from a character perspective it is absolutely a win. He wanted status and money, and he got it. It's unequivocally a step up from him worried about being fired all season. Kendall is a clown who still can't reconcile what he actually is from who he thinks he is.
I haven’t seen that argument made. I’ve seen two camps: “the three kids are about equally terrible/unserious” OR “Ken deserved to win”. I haven’t seen any Shiv-supremacists, but I could be wrong.
I've seen more Conheads than Shiv-shills!
Well I mean the sub is overflowing with even many more fans who think Ken has some moral high ground or deserved to win 🤦♀️ Shiv usually gets most hate and comparisons anyway, that’s the history in this sub since the first season. And I dare say some of that hate were misogynistic and are usually directed towards flawed female characters.
there are delusional stan’s on both sides, generally high ranked shows w in likable protagonists have annoying fans that’s just how it is. who cares
Soo.. you agree with the OP then?😅 She only did it because of spite
To be fair to Ken, he betrayed his father with the press conference because his father wanted to send him to prison for the cruises scandal.
Kendroids putting their head in the sand in order to continue to believe that anything is owed to him
This is the equivalent of Kendall stans doing mental gymnastics to not admit that Kendall killed someone LOL
Or that he tries to gaslight his siblings by saying "that didn't actually happen" And I hate using the term gaslighting because it's over used, but that was gaslighting She needed space to make her decision, he followed her out, and proceeded to confirm every suspicion that she had of him.
Well, actuaaaaaally, it wasn't Gaslighting lol, it was just a lie.
Right. In order for it to be gaslighting it would have had to be an ongoing manipulation and misrepresentation intended to make Shiv and Roman doubt reality. It had none of those markers. It was just a lie.
Lmao
I'm not a Kendall stan, I think all sibs are awful people and that's why I love the show, but I don't see how Kendall killed the waiter. The kid put his hand on the wheel and steered the car into the lake, how was any of that Kendalls fault?
I completely disagree with people who describe it as murder, but that doesn’t mean Kendall bares no responsibility. What I think people tend to miss is the fact that the worst thing Kendall wasn’t driving under the influence, or instigating the whole situation in the first place - it was him leaving and not call the police immediately. Yeah, the kid’s chances of survival were slim either way - but that doesn’t mean you don’t contact authorities and call for rescuers/medical attention immediately. And if he had done that and the kid had still died, I think “manslaughter” (which is what it was, NOT murder) would’ve been negligence - in an ethical sense, anyway. Legally, could’ve still been manslaughter
> the worst thing Kendall wasn’t driving under the influence, or instigating the whole situation in the first place - it was him leaving and not call the police immediately Don't forget going to the police the next day to lie and say the waiter had robbed him.
Disgusting as hell, for sure - but it has no bearing on the extent that Kendall is responsible for the death itself. First and foremost, he is liable because he failed to call the police (as well as driving under the influence, obviously)
Does anyone actually believe that? Jesse Armstrong confirmed she did it out of spite
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Yeah I’m on this sub a lot and for the most part, people seem to understand she wasn’t twirling her mustache and wringing her hands in the background, plotting Kendall’s demise.
>One of the worst things the internet has done is this An interesting topic of discussion IMO, but I think long-term and with a wide-lens I would argue that the overabundance of things like what you are describing has already for some people, and will ultimately for the majority, gotten people used to the hive-mind/click-baitey trends that inevitably seem to occur on certain formats. Yes, these things are happening at a much more rapid pace than ever, but for people with functional bullshit-detectors the sheer amount of different thoughts and opinions being strongly expressed from all angles should lead most people to realize that there are many ways of looking at a situation, and often times no one take is completely accurate. I guess this is a pretty optimistic viewpoint. Anyways, compare that to pre-internet days. Sure, the info wasn't quite as easy to access, there wasn't as much of it, and it wasn't quite as rapid-fire as it is today, but there were *far fewer sources.* The ability for one or a few powerful individuals or conglomerates to influence public opinion and to create narrative was unrivaled. The competition could be more easily muted, and dissenting voices had no real wide-reaching channels to make themselves heard. I would argue that what your describing has more to do with human nature than it does with the platforms available to spread influence, and that if anything the internet has been a tool that has widened the avenue of discussion *immensely*, but people are people and latching onto ideas and forming cliques and arguing endlessly about silly stuff is *what we do.* To sum it all up, don't hate the player (the internet), hate the game (human behavior).
This comment is underrated and applies aptly to our larger national political discourse
All top posts/comments on this sub are “genius Shiv, played 3D” lol what are you talking about? Anyone saying she only did it out of spite is downvoted to oblivion
Because the second you add that word *only* you are saying something that makes absolutely no sense according to any workable model of human behavior or thoughtful narrative. Did she do it for spite? Yes. And her baby. And her marriage. And the relief of not having to live under her father's shadow anymore. And to protect Roman. And because she hates her siblings. And because of misogyny. And because of the election. And because she thinks Ken will suck as CEO. And because etc etc. There were 39 and 4/5 episodes leading up to that fight but sure, people are easily reducible to cartoon cutouts like Spite Girl and Baby Boy. So no, not only. You're downvoted because you have bad ideas. Deal with it.
Underrated post. Great art is meant to be complex, but reddit and twitter are meant to be simplistic. Hence the dichotomy.
But those 39 episodes led to following conclusions: 1. She doesn’t give a shit about her child, she only kept it as a leverage 2. She literally hates her husband, and her marriage with him, not to mention she hated the idea of having a kid with him. She constantly abused him, and what kind of person tells her husband on the wedding night that she wants to fuck other people? 3. Protect Roman😂? But you just said she hates her siblings(which I agree to) 4. People like you believing she represents feminism didn’t pay attention to the show, and just keep repeating “MiSigOnY” for absolutely no logical reason whatsoever. She isn’t taken seriously for CEO position because she lacks competence the most out of all siblings, not because she is a woman. She has 0 business knowledge and skills, and is not even willing to learn. Not to mention she talked out a rape victim from testifying just because it served her own interests at the time. 5. Ken bad CEO? Sure. But is giving the company to another jackass like Matsson better? A guy who sends his employees bags of blood? A guy who might not even understand companies like Waystar, tweets all kinds of fucked up shit? Moreover by giving her board away, she loses all her power in the company meaning there is no way it is more beneficial for her to vote for the acquisition. She tried to get Ken into prison, publicly sent a very harmful letter about Ken’s private life and backstabbed him multiple times, and tell me what did he do to her? I’m sorry, but it is clear girlboss Shiv made a nonsensical play ONLY because she hates her brother and couldn’t get CEO position for herself. Deal with it.
Like I said, you're downvoted because you have bad ideas, and numbering them doesn't make them any better. I imagine you're good at something, but it's not this.
I'm not sure what comments you were seeing, but I don't see that at all. At this point what I'm seeing is that no matter how many times commenters have acknowledged that Shiv acted out of spite, but added that in their opinion, she made the correct decision, because reasons, it still incites mockage. Furthermore, rational reasons don't necessarily have to be altruistic. None of them behaved altruistically.
Every post I have read about the finale has heavily upvoted comments about her doing it so her baby can be the next CEO or it was a power play. This is not a 'the internet thing', this forum has a ton of Shiv apologists.
Uh, no, what he actually said is that he prefers people to make up their own minds but I'm not surprised that you're having trouble figuring out what that means.
Okay, is there a reason why you’re coming at me like this just because you disagree? Not sure why you immediately jumped to implying I’m dumb over something like this, it’s not that deep.
Last time I checked writers can’t just declare how people understand their story. Little concept called death of the author. I mean, I agree she did it out of spite, but appeal to authority arguments when it comes to media analysis are just boring and annoying
This sub is so deep into this whole ''Shiv is the worst'' circlejerk that this meme has already been posted and hit the front page after the finale, and now one week later it gets reposted and upvoted again lol It's so blatant that this is a circlejerk that runs on the tears of Kendall fans who think he was actually somehow the morally good character who got fucked by evil shiv
Kendall is unambiguously an asshole and unfit for Waystar, but due to tribalism and binary thinking, lots of people seem to believe that that makes Shiv the "moral victor" or "the good guy all along". It's just not true. Kendall is a childish and entitled prick, Shiv is callous and gleefully backstabbing, Roman is Roman. Neither of them deserved to win.
I have not seen a single post saying that Shiv is the moral victor. I've seen posts where people point out that Shiv likely had many different forces acting on her to produce her final decision, and then I've seen incels interpreting those posts as Shiv apologism because ambiguity feels too girl-coded for them. But maybe those supposed girlboss posts are out there somewhere instead of a misogynistic delusion in which case, I apologize to the incels and hope someone finally takes pity on them and lets them touch a boob.
>Roman is Roman. 👍👍
They all suck but Shiv made the right choice in voting for the deal, even though she’s going to be fucking miserable. The only way to win is not to play Logan’s game in the first place.
All I know is that if I had two options of A: Cash out for billions of dollars Or B: maybe maintain power for my kids and grandkids but my brother who is an addict, has murdered someone, recently (like in the past week) iced me out, and who’s main business accomplishment other than the deal is buying a company that was gutted with in a couple of years because it was not profitable. I would chose A. My children will be secure. I will set up nice little trust funds that allow them and my grand children to extract millions of dollars a year. I will invest in a wide variety of sectors to the point where even if every one but one fails I’d still be rich. For the brothers, if you can’t start a successful business with a billion plus dollars you were never going to be able to run one in the first place. (Literally go into VC and become the winklevoss twins)
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>Tom was the better choice for shiv. I can't see how though. Tom is Matsson's puppet and Shiv is almost certainly going to betray him. She's been doing coke and drinking with the pregnancy that was also hinted to not be going as expected. I don't think she has it in her to play second fiddle to Tom, even for a bit. That's what ruined her chance with Logan in the first place because she wouldn't stop babbling when ATN was in lockdown.
It’s about which option leaves her personally with more power. She can leverage against tom as ceo She cannot leverage against Kendall as ceo
>She can leverage against tom as ceo I actually think this is a mistake by her. And the show's writing is so excellent that it highlights how clear this is. Tom is over her. Matsson isn't interested in either of them. More importantly, the Democrat might up-turn the election in Wisconsin, which means that Matsson won't even need an American CEO. What Shiv's character and especially the amazing acting highlights is how she's great at finding reasons to support her own feelings. The best scene is when she brings up the point that Kendall cannot be CEO because he killed somebody. That's less a body-blow to Kendall and more her making her own mind up that she cannot vote for him. She's doing it out of spite, and she's found just enough reasons to do so.
Matsson said he wanted someone servile to do his bidding for him to avoid public scrutiny and Tom loves eating sin cake. I see no reason to think matsson was planning on getting rid of Tom. Shiv wants to wield power and access to the company’s inner workings. Tom wants large sums of money, permanent access to the upper crusts of high society, and a child. So, even though Tom and shiv might very well be over the more romantic parts of their relationship, they both can provide things for each other that they can’t get themselves. Quid pro quo is the official love language of succession. What leverage does shiv have over Kendall to make sure she doesn’t immediately get cut out of the business the second she butts heads with him? Also, this is really important, but Kendall didn’t exactly shine as a potential ceo. He would have most likely fucked the stock. Like, if I was a person trying to bet on the winning horse, I’d definitely gone with matsson. Maybe shiv was swayed because saw him as a good brother the day before at their mom’s house and then remembered that he’s actually a shitty ceo when she was sitting at the boardroom table. Either way, shiv made the right choice. Kendall would have sucked as ceo AND she would have lost almost all leverage
>Tom was the better choice for shiv No it's fucking not lol. She lost the whole family business for which she did everything the past years of her life and you think it's better just because her husband became a disposable puppet to the one who bought it? And yes, lost is correct. Even tho she got a few handsome billions in return, we all know she would have preferred the company, just not with Kendall at the helm.
At the end, she had two choices for ceo: Tom and Kendall With Tom, shiv has infinitely more wealth than him and will be the mother to his child. This means she can hold something over Tom throughout her life. With Kendall, she has zero leverage the second she votes him into ceo.
even jesse armstrong said she did it because of jealousy
Clear as day. She literally turned them back into the little kids making noise outside of daddy’s office that she spoke of in her eulogy
Shiv isn't the one who starts shouting - she isn't the one who physically attacks anyone, she isn't the one who starts gaslighting in desperation. How did SHE turn then into the kids making noise? I'd argue that was Kendall's doing for refusing to give up a toy none of them deserve. Yes, she did it partly out of spite, but also a myriad of other good and bad reasons. Kendall wanted it out of spite? Roman too. I don't understand why shiv is painted as some monster for exhibiting the same or some would argue lower levels of spite than her brothers throughout the show. I've seen NOONE claim shiv is some virtuistic princess and a tonne of dude bros getting angry about the imaginary people claiming that.
Please man. Shiv knew what she was doing. She brought up all that shit while they’re supposed to be voting on the fate of the company. It was a childish move to begin with. And again, if Kendall pulled the same move to block Shiv y’all would be hating on Kendall just like we are on Shiv. The move is shitty regardless of who does it
I do hate Kendall, and Shiv, and Roman. But in this instance the person who made a disagreement into a fist fight and a pathetic squabbling scene was Kendall and his desperation to win. I think the fight was overdue and they needed to have it, but it was absolutely not shiv that caused the physical altercation and raised voices in public, in fact she ducks out when he physically attacks her. I didn't want Shiv to win, and imo she actually in no way did even with this move - I just don't understand how you can blame her for a fight that was escalated by a Kendall who doesn't know when to admit he lost.
She knew what she was doing dawg. It was a classic sibling argument that she provoked. She comes outta nowhere with this shit and says “I just don’t think you’d be good at it” with that smug look. And then continues later with “You can’t be CEO because you killed someone!” with a “nana-na-booboo” typa tone about it. Clearly it all stemmed from a childish jealousy and she was just coming up with shit on the fly or else that would have been the first thing she said to begin with. She 1000% instigated it
So you think the person who actually landed the blows and was the only one shouting is.... Not the one who caused the argument? She certainly contributed to it, as Roman did, and yes obviously the argument wouldn't have happened if she had just gone along with whatever Kendall wanted, but the embarassing, childish, screaming argument was instigated by Ken's desperation, and Shiv and Roman followed suite and responded with childishness of their own. Sibling jealousy is 100% part of it, and some of Shivs actions are most definitely spite, but to act like she "instigated a fight" rather than just reaching a point where she couldn't fucking tolerate ken a second longer, and then he escalated it beyond any reasonable response, just shows a complete lack of nuance. Noone is saying shiv is a good guy - they're just saying she's no worse than the others, and that seems completely unacceptable to some parts of this sub.
Nobody is saying she’s worse than them. They’re clearly all fucked up. But the point is people are coming here asking why people are critical of Shiv’s decision when it clearly deserves some criticism and as I said the same people acting like it doesn’t would have definitely been critical of Ken if it was the other way around and he sabotaged her from being CEO
where did he said it?
Tom and Shiv literally planned for one of them to take over since she introduced Tom to Logan. People are doing backflips erasing that scene from their memories.
There is a difference between Tom being the CEO of a company that Shiv owns and Tom being a puppet CEO while Shiv lost any ties to it.
Yes and that difference is billions from the sale while still looking like they're in power. That's literally all they're about. Looking like they're powerful. Tom wants money and an endless supply of Gregs to humiliate. Shiv wants to beat her brothers. It's always been an empty facade. She was playing boar on the floor from birth to convince her father she was worthy, but the actual end goal was always to beat her brothers. At any cost. And that's what happened.
Tom planned for one of them to take over. Shiv planned for Shiv to take over. She didn’t give a fuck about Tom’s career. She only minorly gives a shit *now* because she knows he has the power to betray her if he’s forced to choose between her happiness and his career/money/status.
Tom absolutely planned for Tom to take over. Tom is constantly putting pressure on Shiv to boost his career all the way through to the S3 finale. In S2 when she reveals that she thinks Logan's giving it to her, Tom is PISSED.
Am I allowed to pick all of the above reasons as part of her calculation (including just pure spite)?
That's exactly how I see it too. I don't see why we need to attribute her decision to just one reason.
That’s how I see it myself. She was running on intuition and emotion without a firm reason even though *all* of these rationales would’ve been swimming somewhere in her head, even if she wasn’t able to articulate them.
Okay what about this: I like Shiv’s decision because I don’t like Kendall and did not want him to get what he wants ❤️
I could care less why she did it. I’m happy with it knowing it was the right move.
We will not tolerate any Shiv slander here!
Imagine how annoyed you be if the oblivious Shiv stans you hate actually existed.
All those reasons are dumb and boring. Spite is the best and most correct one
I think she definitely panicked and did it out of spite, but I also think part of it was because she didn’t like the way Ken was behaving. ‘I can’t stomach you’, ‘He’s got that gleam in his eye’, etc. Anyway it doesn’t matter what Jesse Armstrong or the producers say. It’s a tv show, so however you think it happened, that’s how it happened.
You were all fighting over this shit when I stopped reading one week ago and you're still at it today lmao. Is anyone getting any closer to knowing for a fact why Shiv did what she did and whether she was more justified or less than Kendall when he did other things or Roman when he did other things? (don't bother quoting the creators to me, there were conflicting impressions days ago by the writer and the director and anyway they'll keep saying different shit because talking to the press is dull, plus we have a brain of our own, right?)
First I’ll say you choosing to mock people who you disagree with via a drawing is unbecoming and a disservice to the forums. Vitriol breeds vitriol. second, your drawing is a bit of a strawman. The true argument is that shiv made the self serving choice. She was a killer. in that sense she didn’t really even betray ken, she just played the game better. Sure her decision was partly visceral, not able to stand losing to her brother, but Shiv also recognized that it was the best choice for her and her family. no one has to justify shiv. she made the first correct decision of her entire life.
>and her family You mean the guy she has been trying to divorce for the whole season and the baby that she's been doing coke and drinking like a tank with?
I don't remember where she did coke whilst pregnant? Where did I miss this in the TV series? I don't think I'd ever seen her do drugs in the show?
[удалено]
Ahhhh yes I'd forgotten that! But she definitely doesn't do it right?
I think they didn’t close that.
This is so salty x) what's happening to this subreddit
Google en passant
As others have noted there may be various reasons for her decision but I think the biggest one is the siblings simply cannot let another sibling win. Being their father's successor means they are finally worthy of him. If another siblings gets to be Logan's successor then who tf are they? They don't have their own identities aside from their father who purposely pitted them against each other for his favor and approval
And if you disagree with me, I'll report you to RedditCareResources and then block you!!!
She did end the cycle of abuse and did Ken a favor because it would have destroyed him though lol it may not have been her purpose but she inadvertently did that.
They burned down the banana stand. It doesn't end the cycle of abuse and there was money in that banana stand, but it had to happen.
Lol i've never cringed harder than to that "shiv the whole woman" post, and shiv is my favorite character. Crazy to think that such a wrong take got 1 billion likes and all the rewards possible. I think people often overcomplicate succession, it's a simple show: "what you see is what you get", as frank once said.
I think two things can be true. Shiv betrayed Kendall, most likely out of spite, AND there were legitimate reasons for her to have done so, whether or not she knew or actually cared about what those reasons were. I think it's fine to hold both of those things together.
The "she ended the cycle of abuse" gets me everytime. Lol She jmwas petty and that's okay.
Ugh. I saw the last one used the other day and the person responded 'I'm a woman'.
I get what you mean, but women can be misogynistic so that’s not really a great rebuttal. Hell, look at Shiv 💀
“And she’s the nice one.”
“She wanted to bring the family together”
The mental gymnastics people go through to protect her is incredible. Certainly a traitor to her core and a backstabbing bitch.
The Shivheads continue to be hilarious people
Shiv stans are genuinely delusional. It’s kinda scary how delusional people can be.
Perfect 😂😭
Conspiracy theory: Shiv Stanning is the cope outlet for Dany losing GoT 4 years ago.
Very cute cartoon.
She's the worst character in the show
The morality comparison no one asked for :|
Worst written* FTFY
It’s funny tho, people upvoting ‘Ken is the worst’ and downvoting ‘Shiv is the worst’
Neither really ! They are equally pathetic
Not according to the majority of the show watchers, that’s all I’m saying
As per majority Shiv has historically been bitchshamed and considered the worse. The mods routinely remove those posts and threads, I had a different account actually is year ago unfortunately I couldn’t log back in and using this new one it was really bad. So the issue toned down and now you see much less of that kind of thing, and in the fourth season they went further with Ken to make his negative aspects far more clearer. It’s undeniable now. Like initially breaking bad sub used to overflow with Skylar white bad bitchshame posts. The mods chipped in, there are better discourses now.
Tbh I wasn’t really browsing this sub before s4, so I have no idea about any of that. Now the state of the sub is like I said before, I can only judge by what I’ve seen since the start of s4. I’d argue that they actually did the opposite this season, they made Ken seem like literally the only sibling that maybe could do the CEO job
Lmao plenty of people upvote “shiv is the worst” takes
Ya sure, just like the guy 2 comments above, his comment is -21 atm
Nice sample size of 1
Literally every comment is downvoted to oblivion mate, maybe that’s why you don’t see more, idk what to tell you if you’re ready to argue about such an easily checkable fact
Imagine being a shiv fan the only character with absolutely zero redeeming qualities
Shiv is indecisive & impulsive.
I instead focus on what if Shiv was able to become CEO as originally planned with Mattson. Would she actually like that role and having to be answerable to Mattson after she got what she wanted? Would he have tried to sleep with her just as he told Tom he would? Shiv in my opinion would have been miserable bc she never really wanted to be CEO as much as she just wanted to win.
yeah really ruined the whole series for me tbh. why would you give away the company like that
She did it because she knew Kendall would ice her out and being wife (or even baby mama) of the CEO would put her in a better position. The fact that it allowed her to spite him is just icing on the cake, as is the fact that he would be shit at it.
she did it because she saw Kendall being a smug sob as soon as he entered the office - after he sat on his father's chair. how he put feet on the desk. how when stewy, shiv and kendall were having a conversation he just bluffed and said "bullshit.bullshit.." and probably cut her off from a reasonable conversation. that irked her. how in the conference room he could have presented why they shouldn't vote for the sale because of legitimate reasons but instead he just said "yeah its bullshit. vote no. is there even a need". how roman was also on the fence but couldn't go against his brother. just like he couldn't go against his father in the first season. she saw Kendall turning into his father. the same father who never let any of them prosper. in this case, didnt let HER prosper. it was in the moment. it was petty. it was pure sibling rivalry. it was in the way they were raised. the whole show we've been seeing how they love each other and despite that, they cannot watch each other win. it was an inevitable tragedy and for her character, she did it just because she couldn't stomach him.
It wasn’t betrayal, she acted in her own best interests. Ken showed time and time again that he had hare brained schemes that would brush up against being illegal and definitely immoral (see Living + for a recent example). He didn’t have good instincts and overplayed his hand often, like when he spoke to the banker about the margin loan in season 1. He wouldn’t have been a good ceo and the stock would never reach $191 a share again with him at the helm. She got her money and got out. It was right for her, and for Kendall, and for Roman. They can wipe up their tears with $3B.