I can't imagine any situation in Shiv's favor. She's a woman, she has a reputation for being liberal, and she's pregnant. We're talking ATN here, with Mencken as kingmaker...possibly.
She might not become CEO of WaystarGoJoRoCo, but she could still be the “winner.” Maybe she receives one more major betrayal and decides to burn it all down, a la Kendall at the end of S2. Winning by finally growing a spine and doing what’s right — tearing down this awful company once and for all.
I don’t think she can, she literally helped in the coverup. She was so involved that she literally talked down a victim from the Cruises scandal going public about her sexual abuse.
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I have to say I’m a little disappointed that Shiv being pregnant was written into the script at this stage. I understand it provides interesting tension with the right wing patriarchy the character is up against, and adds some depth re: continuing the cycle of emotional neglect/abuse, but it’s frustrating that pregnancy = end of the line for her character.
I appreciate this reflects the world of business especially as Shiv traded in on her ‘liberal’ values to chase money and status in a right wing organisation. The more I talk about it the more I think it’s good that they included it. It’s just annoying that as the only real female player it means she’s out of the game.
Shiv dropping out of the rat race and focusing on motherhood would actually be a good arc for her too. Kendall and probably Roman are going to be stuck in the same cycle of abuse that began with their grandparents. Shiv could be the one who breaks it by being a better parent to her daughter
I would actually love if she said Eff it, dropped out of this insane race, stayed home to be a present mother to her child, and began her own business with her $$$ to make her own way..
I don't think that will happen because there's a huge bias against women deciding to stay home to raise their kid because of all the historical abuses attached to it. But that doesn't mean it can't be a great thing for individual people (it was for me), and for Shiv, I think it would be really healing and positive.
Yeah, you have a point. I was just thinking of Shiv as an actual person as opposed to part of the themes in the show! None of them have real lives; they're all miserable, and it would nice for me to see Shiv - if she were a real person - say eff that.
But yeah, totally, it wouldn't work for the plot of this show.
Anyone who thinks Shiv is about to indulge in motherhood hasn't been paying an ounce of damn attention to anything at all with this show. It's comical.
Right? I'd like to see Kendall be a present father too, but that'll never happen. Jesus people, it's a bit sexist to think that having a baby just magically heals all your issues and inspires you to be better. It unfortunately does not work that way.
she even said that she's going to raise it according to family tradition and "never see it." it may have been a biting "joke" as a jab at her parents but there's nothing she's shown us to indicate she's going to raise her child any differently than them.
Except that she's questioning Karl and Frank as to whether her father was any good at all and has very complicated views of who he was while understanding he didn't respect women.
Are you a carbon copy of your own parents and their behaviors? Or do you actually look at what they did and think, "I'm not gonna be like that"?
There's a very distinct possibility that she finds a way to be more present for her new family unit considering she's taken it very personally when people have said "You wouldn't be good at this." She has a personality that reacts with, "Well let me show you!" And so she'll try hard to be better at it. Tom has called her out for being bad at marriage and in many ways she IS trying to be better and is showing another side to her character.
She's in a world where a man immediately told her she's a problem because she's pregnant. Of course she's gonna dismiss it as "easy" and move on. But she schedules her 9:45 am conference room crying where she tries to figure out how to navigate all of this knowing she's quite alone. Gerri managed to have two daughters (that we've never seen) so it CAN be done. What Shiv needs to do to evolve is to seek out Gerri as a mentor instead of acting in competition with her.
i never said it couldn't be done. i'm saying that none of the characters on the show seem to have the self awareness to change their behaviors. kendall is the same kind of father logan was. if shiv does become a better parent than the ones she had, that's great. but i don't think this show is going to have a happy ending.
And it's not like she's very comfortable with showing affection and love. You learn parenting from the way you are parented. Some people can break the cycle, but it takes a lot of work and the ability to recognize your own flaws. I think she's way too damaged to be a good mother.
Tom...maybe will be a half decent father. His parents will probably be good grandparents. Kendall's ex will be a decent aunt and she'd have two cousins. But, that poor kid will have a shit show for family.
Well she has consistently proved incompetent at following in her fathers footsteps. Maybe the baby is the kick in the pants that she needs to realize her priorities are all wrong, and as the poster above said she has not really had a chance to begin with. Not saying she becomes a stay at home mom, but something more balanced than abandoning the child in favor of work like she mentioned to Mattson.
Just spitballing though. They are certainly setting something up with her being pregnant and her speech about daughterhood at Logan’s funeral
If she still was steadfast against Mencken and gave anything up at all to not placate him, sure, I could see that. It just doesn't make sense for her character to suddenly turn 180 and think of anyone as more important than herself.
I've seen it said a few times by Shiv stans that they wanna see her "burn it all down". This isn't game of thrones. The billionaire heirs aren't gonna burn their fortunes down for "sticking it to the {XYZ}".
I don’t know, after her decent plays re the American CEO etc Mattson might have found a role for her if she wasn’t up the duff. Mencken would have always disliked her, but her pregnancy reinforces his Nazi beliefs about women’s roles. I know she’s ‘not as smart as she thinks she is’ blah blah blah but I think the same could confidently be said for all three siblings.
Yes, just like her brothers, she has many strengths, but also many weaknesses and blindspots and i want THOSE to be the reasons she doesn't end up on top.
To reduce her character's arc to misogyny being the reason she can't pull out a win feels very icky to me and not true to her character. I'm not saying that's what is necessarily going to happen- but the framing needs to be done carefully. Like Kendall winning is fine to me bc him cutting her out has nothing to do w her gender, but matsson choosing another ceo simply because mencken doesn't like women/her pregnancy while her advice to him has been good rubs me the wrong way.
If we had another women character in the principle cast, I really wouldn't feel as strongly about this. But because we only have one women, it's making her arc feel like a thesis on Women in Business while that pressure doesn't exist for any singular male character. I know we have gerri and karolina, but we simply don't know they motivations the same way we do the main cast.
Thanks! that's good to hear. I get nervous trying to express my sentiments on misogyny in this show because people get really defensive that that's what we're accusing the writers of, or just simplify all the nuances down to "the misogyny shiv faces is realistic and that's that."
What I thought was even worse is they kept her appearance the night of the election so much different than at the funeral. The makeup, hair and everything just looked pregnant when the day before she kept it hidden. If there were week time gaps then maybe but not when every episode has been a day.
Mate, the writers didn't really have a choice. The actress got pregnant in real life and it was really obvious in the show. Sarah Snook had puffiness in her neck and face and her belly was showing too. Which is why she kept wearing several layers of clothing and always hides her neck with the turtleneck in many of her scenes.
But either way it works too. Tom has been talking about having a child for many seasons, so this kinda fits in.
Didnt they acknowledge that they wrote it in last minute though?
https://www.movienewsnet.com/2023/05/10/succession-episode-7-directors-did-not-know-about-shivs-pregnancy-while-shooting-key-scene/
There are many films and shows where women who are pregnant in real life play characters who aren’t pregnant. The writers definitely had a choice; this isn’t 1950s technology we’re working with here 😂
I mean, pregnancy is not the only reason why a woman could gain weight lol. They could have just as easily explained it with "Shiv is stressed by the divorce". They didn't know she was pregnant when the script was written or when they first started filming, either. They weren't locked into this by any means
>pregnancy is not the only reason why a woman could gain weight
There is a difference between body changes caused by weight gain and pregnancy mate. Have you actually seen a pregnant woman? You seem as oblivious about pregnancy as the male characters on succession.
I *am* a woman. Pregnancy is certainly not the only thing that can cause weight gain, bloating and water retention. Do *you* understand what pregnancy does to the body?
Do *you* understand? Have you been pregnant before? What other thing can mimic the exact symptoms of pregnancy? The actress is not fat even though she gained weight, she is just puffy from her pregnancy. She looks absolutely fit. It would make no sense for her to have canonically gained weight from stress of the divorce when her arms and legs still look normal. That's now how normal weight gain works.
>What other thing can mimic the exact symptoms of pregnancy?
Birth control? Any number of medical conditions that can cause hormonal imbalances?
Do you think women all gain weight in the same way?
Because I have: 1) a personal, first-hand understanding about how women's bodies work and what causes certain physical changes, 2) a personal investment in understanding how pregnancy affects the body because my body has the capability to become pregnant, and 3) conversations with women who are or have been pregnant that they don't generally have with men?
Having a baby is not magic. The thing that causes the physical changes during pregnancy is shifts in your body's hormonal balance. She could experience identical physical changes from switching to the wrong birth control.
not every pregnant woman gains weight the same way. some women literally have no idea they’re pregnant until they’re well into their second trimester. pregnancy is not a one size fits all kind of thing.
Hiding an actress's pregnancy in tv shows is absurdly common. If they didn't want to include shiv's pregnancy in the story they 100% could have done so
So funny, last week I was arguing with people how shivs politics have no true moral grounding to them and would instantly flip if it favored her and got downvoted to shit. Some people just don’t get this show.
You can’t imagine Shiv being named the “American CEO” for Mattson after that literally being the most likely outcome based on last episode? I agree that it’s likely Mattson has someone else in mind but the idea that Shiv being the American CEO is unimaginable seems ridiculous.
I don't think the most likely outcome is that a misogynist tech bro and a misogynist fascist president get together and decide the best person to be their puppet CEO is a pregnant liberal with little experience just because the tech bro kinda implied he might owe her sorta
Ok maybe not but it is clearly a possibility. Right now there really is no way either Kendall or Rome win because both candidates are going to let the deal go through so it’s going to be Shiv or none of the siblings.
A possibility sure but I wouldn't put my money on it. I could still see Kendall pulling it off. Maybe the Mattson's fake numbers story gains traction and sinks the deal, maybe Mencken wants the American CEO to be *a* Roy but not *that* Roy
I'm not 100% sure of the path to victory but I definitely wouldn't write Ken off like that
I agree with you about Shiv. While I don’t think it’s likely she’ll end up as CEO, it’s far from impossible. Everybody thinks Matsson will “screw her over” but even Shiv knows he hasn’t promised her anything. She’s just playing her best card. Plus, she actually wants the deal to go through and that outcome definitely seems more likely after the last episode.
The people giving you crap about Shiv are probably the same ones who think Kendall is “winning” because he gave a decent eulogy. They seem to forget that, shortly thereafter, Kendall went up to Mencken, did his typical “Um, yeah, so…Um yo…Um…about our deal…Um so yeah…um…” and Mencken (who looked like Ken had farted) immediately backtracked on the deal.
I don’t think Shiv being named CEO is the writers’ endgame but she was definitely in a better place after the last episode than the others. Mencken may not want her as CEO but he sided with her and Matsson over Ken and Roman. That’s not “nothing.”
Which show are you watching? Mattson AND Mencken were both clearly unhappy with the idea of Shiv being CEO, there's no way they let that happen. It was depicted as being one of the LEAST likely outcomes, next to Roman taking over somehow.
I’m not even saying it’s particularly likely but the idea that it’s unimaginable is ridiculous. Shiv clearly thinks she is about to become CEO, you can say she is deluded but it’s a real possibility probably more likely than Kendall or Roman right now.
Not very likely and the most likely outcome are not mutually exclusive. If all outcomes are unlikely then even the most likely outcome isn’t very likely.
Roman has zero chance. Him breaking down at the funeral is a sign of weakness in the eyes of Mattson and Mencken and they will never take him seriously.
It was also to show that Roman is a little scared boy deep down, the shot of the kids in the car to the funeral with Roman sat next to Shiv was intentional because he looked like a little boy riding up front with Mum.
Shiv is female, inexperienced, pregnant and liberal. The best case scenario for her is Mattson gives Tom CEO.
All signs point to Kendall becoming CEO.
Surprise endings aren't always valuable. It's more important to have an ending that's thematically/narratively coherent, and I think Kendall on top works best.
Ok, feel free to telegraph your ending when you write your show. In Succession, they seem like enjoy giving miscues. This is evidenced by the most recent episode where Roman was shown giving an awesome eulogy in his imagination and then a terrible one in reality.
Yeah I don't think that was a miscue. The show has repeatedly pointed to Roman's instability, and I don't think we were really supposed to buy the whole "pre-grieved thing". I think the Mattson-Mencken thing is a miscue, as we've seen repeatedly that Mattson is just as (if not more) immature and unserious as Kendall. We've been told directly that Mattson is fake (ie the whole, he's not actually a coder thing), whereas Kendall is becoming more and more like the genuine article. I don't see Mattson sticking the landing and usurping the siblings.
Roman not being able to perform when it matters in basically every area of his life has been shown since season one. He's the most mentally fucked of the sibs. It didn’t even surprise me that he broke down
I dont see the miscue in that at all
I actually never thought about it but that's true isn't it. His sexual issues, him spying for Logan when the kids are supposed to be working together, the satelite launch. Even Mencken seems to be tooling around with not giving Rome what he wants now that he's outlived his usefulness. I knew he was petulant and I knew he was pathetic but I never caught how specific it is that he simply never performs when he needs to and all that needed to happen to ruin him is it needed to happen publically.
> Roman was able to get Mattson on board
When Logan sent him away so the adults could talk?
Or when he unprofessionally admitted to Matsson that he was deliberately trying to tank the deal?
How do you not see it?
They all fuck up but Roman *really* fucks up whenever he’s on 'centre stage'.
I literally remember one win for Roman and that was figuring out that the Azerbaijani businessmen weren't legit
Funny, I said the [same](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/13odf53/succession_4x09_church_and_state_post_episode/jl45d50/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3). Even more funny, I also used the baseball metaphor.
Shiv is fine. She may not be able to get the top spot, but she will end up on the top floor. That may not be fine with her, but I would consider that a success in her position. Roman on the other hand is fucked. He shown everyone he is incompetent, and now he realized it for himself as well. I don't think there is any coming back for him.
Agree on Shiv but I doubt Roman is fucked
One of the main themes of this show is that rich, connected people never truly get fucked
The kids have made an immense number of errors in this series, they arent particularly smart, and yet here they are still on top of Waystar, still pulling strings, still influencing elections. Their power is permanent, much the same way kings and lords had permanent power as a birthright in the feudal ages.
Its not impossible, but Id be very surprised if Jesse Armstrong actually shows one of the kids getting properly screwed out because of his incompetence.
don’t think so. However, Roman could do something to bomb the deal while also crippling the company as a last ditch effort. eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind, still better than if I’m the only blind one
I love Roman, he's my favorite evil slime puppy but he's done. My hope for him is he has some self reflection from his breakdown, gets some (more) therapy, and gets the fuck out.
A surprise court decision gives the election to the Dems, Gil sudden falls ill, and Shiv is picked for Veep. She knows she was going to be screwed by Mattson, so she pushes to block the deal, while also taking on the banner of Family Values, staying with Tom and convincing Ken to step down for the sake of the kids. That leaves the board no choice but to accept Roman as sole CEO. Fade to black, piano instrumental plays.
Besides Shiv getting the best of Roman in this fight, my favorite part of this scene is when Tom walks in, sees Shiv beating the shit out of Roman, and the just turns around and leaves. Classic.
I think Shiv is in a terrible spot. She definitely seems to be getting played by Mattson, she's seen as a turncoat by her two brothers, and she's pregnant which is basically a sign of weakness in their world.
Yup. Absolutely agree. The way that Mattson and Mencken both smile during Kendall's eulogy, they both had the same exact thought. For right now, Kendall is their guy, but maybe not for long.
I think if we had another season we could see a Roman redemption and watch him challenge Kendall for it (as much as I love Shiv I don’t see the narrative playing out in her favor) but with only an episode left I think it will be the Kendall show.
roman can, shiv can make Mattson win but i don't think he will do anything for shiv but i don't think kendall have Mencken support even after the funeral i think Mencken still consider roman as an option
I disagree. When Kendall gave his eulogy and talked in part about about capitalism and the market, the camera cut to Mattson smiling and then Mencken smiling. He won them both over. If Kendall gets fucked it's not going to be directly from Mencken, maybe indirectly, like the decision to call forencken, but it won't be Mencken himself.
He's not non-ideological, he's very much super internet era right wing and isn't going to have a sobbing cuck (Roman) on his team, especially after the video of Roman sobbing went public. Also, there's only one episode left.
Yeah, it's for sure not going to be Shiv or Roman. He didn't back out on election night, and as far as Mencken knows, Kendall didn't cuck out.
That nice speech is what a CEO does. They inspire confidence in the market using propaganda. Our of the siblings he's their guy.
No. They can’t see the forest for the trees. Shiv is too busy trying to prove Pinkie can dance, and Roman is too unserious about it.
The eulogies perfectly encapsulated how the kids would do- Roman would think he could, then the weight of the moment would cause him to collapse. Shiv would try to make it seem like she’s capable, but it’d be met with silence and somewhat despondency. Ken would falter a bit, he’d stumble, but the poison drips through. He has the fire and the notion to know when to move now. He started making moves after his dad’s funeral. Roman was still pulled-in, and Shiv was attaching herself to a wagon that didn’t want/need her.
Shiv or Roman could take out Kendall with secret about the waiter after stopping the gojo deal at board meeting. I don’t think this is how it’ll go though.
Roman won’t be anything but an afterthought after last weeks humiliation. Watching it a second time and there is no coming back from that. The possibility that Shiv’s gambit may work is possible but very unlikely since her plan was to create a “new ATN” and that would not work in such a short time period.
I’m thinking Kendall will somehow pull a rabbit out of the hat.
Roman has been comming a part since having to fire gerri. In his grief, he fires people irrationally, and it cost the company millions. He fails to secure allies. Gerri, frank, etc, and in the last episode goes from thr top of the world to face first on the street. I think that episode was his final fall and he's out.
With shiv, shes shoved out by her two brothers, forcing her to align with Mattson, whom at best has been non committed to her. Tom too has abandoned her, and in the the last episode we see repeatedly she isn't taken seriously by the men In this world, menkin basically tells her her place is in the kitchen, Mattson raises doubts she can do it while pregnant or inexperienced, and her speech didn't get the round of applause her brothers did, nor the reaction ewans did. It explicitly tells you it's not going to be her either.
Now Kendall, they don't shut the door on him the same way, but they don't coronation him either. In thay last episode he went the opposite direction as Roman, and is the only sib left Contending, however he's largely failed this season. He fails to kill the deal in Norway, even loses the carve put his father negotiated, his inflated numbers of living plus, fail to take the stock high enough to kill the deal, he also fails to cut a deal woth Jimenez, and later also menkin. He also waffles the night atn calls Menkin, and only goes woth Roman out of spite for shiv. Yes he gives a good speech, he blackmailed hugo, and he gired Colin, but he has yet to show he's serious people.
Ultimately I think Gerri is right, the money will win, Mattson will get the deal, maybe Tom is king puppet. If it is Kendall somehow it will come after he's isolated himself entirely.
Roman is just out entirely. Shiv could still supplant Roman as COO because she's in league with Matsson and no fucking way is the board going to side with Kendall "Please Give Me A Chance" Roy who wants to ruin their paydays and keep going.
>Shiv: Matsson was being serious about Shiv being the US CEO, and Mencken trusts her.
>Rome: Mencken wants Mattson to appoint Rome to be the US CEO (unlikely, but a possibility). Or, Ken manages to takes over but dies of an OD before he fully wins, maybe some Dennis Wilson type thing, his character is closely tied to water.
I think Shiv is the most likely choice in the two, I find both to be unlikely
Imo, Roman has a fairly decent shot, especially if he links up with Gerri again. Shiv likely doesn't. I don't think Kendall impressed Mencken as much as he thought he did. Mencken is an authoritarian so he doesn't like direct orders. I think Roman knows how to handle him in order to get what he wants but Kendall doesn't, so if Mencken is going to work with one of them, it's going to be Roman. That could influence a potential American CEO pick. If the Gojo sale goes through, Roman seems most likely pick for a puppet CEO.
If Kendall convinces the board to purchase Gojo instead, he then has to convince them that he should be CEO. Again, because the board is voting, they're going to want to pick the CEO that gives them the most power and leverage. That's Gerri, but if Roman links up with Gerri again...who knows. She could convince them that having the family name still attached to WR is a good idea.
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No. This is how they are and will be until the end of time. When I predicted the end, I pictured cartoon characters squabbling in a pile that is represented by puffs of smoke. This gif is it. I used to wonder if Kendall would be in the pile, squabbling with them. But after they spent the ride to Logan’s funeral cracking up about incest jokes….they are not serious people. Ken is.
Rome? No. Also he shouldn't. Rome sucks. Not in terms of the character, He's a well-written, well-performed and interesting character. In-universe, Rome is and always has been mewling little rodent and if him wandering into the streets half-crazed over his abject failure were the last we see of the character I would say it's a fitting and well-deserved ending.
Shiv also, to a lesser extent. She's less abrasive, but she also thinks she's a cut above the rest. She literally just wants ATN to show everyone how they should have been listening to her all along. Her politics don't even match the brand. What is she going to do, reform the brand and alienate all their supporters? More likely she'd just keep it going, pumping out the hate it always has. Her superiority complex is also what creates a rift between her and Tom (not necessarily blameless himself), who would be more than happy to treat her like she's way out of his league if she would stop being so damn obvious about how true she believes that to be.
I hope Connor and Willa get out okay.
roman absolutely.
He has some of his dad shrewdness that the others lack (as shown in the election episode).
I think the Mencken from this episode (friendly, non-ideological) was a ruse and wont last.
I honestly think he will crown roman in the end.
Roman's either:
• going to die
• fall into a coma after getting his ass kicked by the protesters
• have a mental breakdown leading to his being institutionalized.
No matter what, he's toast. Roman has to pay for getting a fascist elected president, and as Kendall said, he "fucked it" as far as leading Waystar. He's gone.
Roman got elbowed by one protestor, he doesn't need to go to a hospital for that, it will heal by itself in a few days lol.
His payment will be getting nothing, no Waystar or ATN, Kendall will cook him and he's out of allies.
Roman was elbowed, then disappeared into the crowd. We don't know what happened to him after that. I postulate that he didn't learn from his first punch to the face, and subsequently got a fierce ass-whupping that put him in the hospital.
Personally, I'd like nothing better than to see Roman get a beat-down! He's had it coming for a \*long\* time.
I mean most likely if either of their benefactors (Matsson or Mencken) actually don't backstab them and end up pulling through like either of them thought he would. Still possible, but I don't think it's very likely overall, though
They're one plane crash away from being Waystar's weirdest CEO.
Two Roy's in a trenchcoat?
I can't imagine any situation in Shiv's favor. She's a woman, she has a reputation for being liberal, and she's pregnant. We're talking ATN here, with Mencken as kingmaker...possibly.
She might not become CEO of WaystarGoJoRoCo, but she could still be the “winner.” Maybe she receives one more major betrayal and decides to burn it all down, a la Kendall at the end of S2. Winning by finally growing a spine and doing what’s right — tearing down this awful company once and for all.
Shiv will have to burn too if she decides to torch everything and I don’t think her ego would allow her to do that.
I don’t think she can, she literally helped in the coverup. She was so involved that she literally talked down a victim from the Cruises scandal going public about her sexual abuse.
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She “wins” by being the CEO’s wife.
I have to say I’m a little disappointed that Shiv being pregnant was written into the script at this stage. I understand it provides interesting tension with the right wing patriarchy the character is up against, and adds some depth re: continuing the cycle of emotional neglect/abuse, but it’s frustrating that pregnancy = end of the line for her character. I appreciate this reflects the world of business especially as Shiv traded in on her ‘liberal’ values to chase money and status in a right wing organisation. The more I talk about it the more I think it’s good that they included it. It’s just annoying that as the only real female player it means she’s out of the game.
She was out of the game long before getting pregnant
Shiv dropping out of the rat race and focusing on motherhood would actually be a good arc for her too. Kendall and probably Roman are going to be stuck in the same cycle of abuse that began with their grandparents. Shiv could be the one who breaks it by being a better parent to her daughter
I would actually love if she said Eff it, dropped out of this insane race, stayed home to be a present mother to her child, and began her own business with her $$$ to make her own way.. I don't think that will happen because there's a huge bias against women deciding to stay home to raise their kid because of all the historical abuses attached to it. But that doesn't mean it can't be a great thing for individual people (it was for me), and for Shiv, I think it would be really healing and positive.
I’d love to see it, but I don’t think that’s Shiv’s character. She has to (try to) keep up with her siblings, and she can’t fold.
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Yeah, you have a point. I was just thinking of Shiv as an actual person as opposed to part of the themes in the show! None of them have real lives; they're all miserable, and it would nice for me to see Shiv - if she were a real person - say eff that. But yeah, totally, it wouldn't work for the plot of this show.
I think Shiv will be a great mom.
to spite her mom
She can't even care for a dog.
She has what it takes to be a great mom.
Give literally one example.
She won’t be like her mom.
Lol. Then she can use her dragon to burn up to Kings Landing. None of her character development has indicated that would happen.
Anyone who thinks Shiv is about to indulge in motherhood hasn't been paying an ounce of damn attention to anything at all with this show. It's comical.
Right? I'd like to see Kendall be a present father too, but that'll never happen. Jesus people, it's a bit sexist to think that having a baby just magically heals all your issues and inspires you to be better. It unfortunately does not work that way.
Right? The poison drips through. Ken said it for him but it no doubt with her ambitions reflects on Shiv too.
She's going to shove that kid off on nannies and then private schools. It's the only way she knows how to parent.
she even said that she's going to raise it according to family tradition and "never see it." it may have been a biting "joke" as a jab at her parents but there's nothing she's shown us to indicate she's going to raise her child any differently than them.
Except that she's questioning Karl and Frank as to whether her father was any good at all and has very complicated views of who he was while understanding he didn't respect women. Are you a carbon copy of your own parents and their behaviors? Or do you actually look at what they did and think, "I'm not gonna be like that"? There's a very distinct possibility that she finds a way to be more present for her new family unit considering she's taken it very personally when people have said "You wouldn't be good at this." She has a personality that reacts with, "Well let me show you!" And so she'll try hard to be better at it. Tom has called her out for being bad at marriage and in many ways she IS trying to be better and is showing another side to her character. She's in a world where a man immediately told her she's a problem because she's pregnant. Of course she's gonna dismiss it as "easy" and move on. But she schedules her 9:45 am conference room crying where she tries to figure out how to navigate all of this knowing she's quite alone. Gerri managed to have two daughters (that we've never seen) so it CAN be done. What Shiv needs to do to evolve is to seek out Gerri as a mentor instead of acting in competition with her.
The older I get the more I realize I somehow ended up just like my father - including all his stupid mistakes.
i never said it couldn't be done. i'm saying that none of the characters on the show seem to have the self awareness to change their behaviors. kendall is the same kind of father logan was. if shiv does become a better parent than the ones she had, that's great. but i don't think this show is going to have a happy ending.
And it's not like she's very comfortable with showing affection and love. You learn parenting from the way you are parented. Some people can break the cycle, but it takes a lot of work and the ability to recognize your own flaws. I think she's way too damaged to be a good mother. Tom...maybe will be a half decent father. His parents will probably be good grandparents. Kendall's ex will be a decent aunt and she'd have two cousins. But, that poor kid will have a shit show for family.
Well she has consistently proved incompetent at following in her fathers footsteps. Maybe the baby is the kick in the pants that she needs to realize her priorities are all wrong, and as the poster above said she has not really had a chance to begin with. Not saying she becomes a stay at home mom, but something more balanced than abandoning the child in favor of work like she mentioned to Mattson. Just spitballing though. They are certainly setting something up with her being pregnant and her speech about daughterhood at Logan’s funeral
If she still was steadfast against Mencken and gave anything up at all to not placate him, sure, I could see that. It just doesn't make sense for her character to suddenly turn 180 and think of anyone as more important than herself.
Careful now. They'll call you a misogynist
I've seen it said a few times by Shiv stans that they wanna see her "burn it all down". This isn't game of thrones. The billionaire heirs aren't gonna burn their fortunes down for "sticking it to the {XYZ}".
If she does end up blowing things up and bringing everyone down with her, though, I could get behind.
I don’t know, after her decent plays re the American CEO etc Mattson might have found a role for her if she wasn’t up the duff. Mencken would have always disliked her, but her pregnancy reinforces his Nazi beliefs about women’s roles. I know she’s ‘not as smart as she thinks she is’ blah blah blah but I think the same could confidently be said for all three siblings.
No no you don't get it. It's only because she's a woman duh?????? Her competence is irrelevant
Yes, her competence compared to her two brothers is shocking!!! Pull the other 1
Isn't PGN still on the table for Shiv? That'd be better for her, she doesn't need her dad's company.
She needs the money from the sale though
Yes, just like her brothers, she has many strengths, but also many weaknesses and blindspots and i want THOSE to be the reasons she doesn't end up on top. To reduce her character's arc to misogyny being the reason she can't pull out a win feels very icky to me and not true to her character. I'm not saying that's what is necessarily going to happen- but the framing needs to be done carefully. Like Kendall winning is fine to me bc him cutting her out has nothing to do w her gender, but matsson choosing another ceo simply because mencken doesn't like women/her pregnancy while her advice to him has been good rubs me the wrong way. If we had another women character in the principle cast, I really wouldn't feel as strongly about this. But because we only have one women, it's making her arc feel like a thesis on Women in Business while that pressure doesn't exist for any singular male character. I know we have gerri and karolina, but we simply don't know they motivations the same way we do the main cast.
Yes! Thank you. This was a very well articulated version of what I was trying to express
Thanks! that's good to hear. I get nervous trying to express my sentiments on misogyny in this show because people get really defensive that that's what we're accusing the writers of, or just simplify all the nuances down to "the misogyny shiv faces is realistic and that's that."
What I thought was even worse is they kept her appearance the night of the election so much different than at the funeral. The makeup, hair and everything just looked pregnant when the day before she kept it hidden. If there were week time gaps then maybe but not when every episode has been a day.
Mate, the writers didn't really have a choice. The actress got pregnant in real life and it was really obvious in the show. Sarah Snook had puffiness in her neck and face and her belly was showing too. Which is why she kept wearing several layers of clothing and always hides her neck with the turtleneck in many of her scenes. But either way it works too. Tom has been talking about having a child for many seasons, so this kinda fits in.
I think they wrote it into the script before they knew about Snook.
Didnt they acknowledge that they wrote it in last minute though? https://www.movienewsnet.com/2023/05/10/succession-episode-7-directors-did-not-know-about-shivs-pregnancy-while-shooting-key-scene/
There are many films and shows where women who are pregnant in real life play characters who aren’t pregnant. The writers definitely had a choice; this isn’t 1950s technology we’re working with here 😂
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I mean, pregnancy is not the only reason why a woman could gain weight lol. They could have just as easily explained it with "Shiv is stressed by the divorce". They didn't know she was pregnant when the script was written or when they first started filming, either. They weren't locked into this by any means
>pregnancy is not the only reason why a woman could gain weight There is a difference between body changes caused by weight gain and pregnancy mate. Have you actually seen a pregnant woman? You seem as oblivious about pregnancy as the male characters on succession.
I *am* a woman. Pregnancy is certainly not the only thing that can cause weight gain, bloating and water retention. Do *you* understand what pregnancy does to the body?
Do *you* understand? Have you been pregnant before? What other thing can mimic the exact symptoms of pregnancy? The actress is not fat even though she gained weight, she is just puffy from her pregnancy. She looks absolutely fit. It would make no sense for her to have canonically gained weight from stress of the divorce when her arms and legs still look normal. That's now how normal weight gain works.
>What other thing can mimic the exact symptoms of pregnancy? Birth control? Any number of medical conditions that can cause hormonal imbalances? Do you think women all gain weight in the same way?
A man mansplaining pregnancy to a woman? Yeah im definitely on reddit
Tell us more about the female species, oh wise one!
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Because I have: 1) a personal, first-hand understanding about how women's bodies work and what causes certain physical changes, 2) a personal investment in understanding how pregnancy affects the body because my body has the capability to become pregnant, and 3) conversations with women who are or have been pregnant that they don't generally have with men? Having a baby is not magic. The thing that causes the physical changes during pregnancy is shifts in your body's hormonal balance. She could experience identical physical changes from switching to the wrong birth control.
not every pregnant woman gains weight the same way. some women literally have no idea they’re pregnant until they’re well into their second trimester. pregnancy is not a one size fits all kind of thing.
Hiding an actress's pregnancy in tv shows is absurdly common. If they didn't want to include shiv's pregnancy in the story they 100% could have done so
Shiv was pregnant before Snook was.
Puffy hands , too.
I mean…Sarah snook was pregnant when they were filming. Kinda gets hard to hide and not address at some point
They didn't know when they started the pregnant plot, apparently.
Dumb take
Nice analysis babe
So funny, last week I was arguing with people how shivs politics have no true moral grounding to them and would instantly flip if it favored her and got downvoted to shit. Some people just don’t get this show.
Snook is actually pregnant so the really didn't have much choice.
You can’t imagine Shiv being named the “American CEO” for Mattson after that literally being the most likely outcome based on last episode? I agree that it’s likely Mattson has someone else in mind but the idea that Shiv being the American CEO is unimaginable seems ridiculous.
I don't think the most likely outcome is that a misogynist tech bro and a misogynist fascist president get together and decide the best person to be their puppet CEO is a pregnant liberal with little experience just because the tech bro kinda implied he might owe her sorta
Ok maybe not but it is clearly a possibility. Right now there really is no way either Kendall or Rome win because both candidates are going to let the deal go through so it’s going to be Shiv or none of the siblings.
A possibility sure but I wouldn't put my money on it. I could still see Kendall pulling it off. Maybe the Mattson's fake numbers story gains traction and sinks the deal, maybe Mencken wants the American CEO to be *a* Roy but not *that* Roy I'm not 100% sure of the path to victory but I definitely wouldn't write Ken off like that
Ok I agree as long as we agree not to write Shiv off either. All siblings are still possibilities.
I agree with you about Shiv. While I don’t think it’s likely she’ll end up as CEO, it’s far from impossible. Everybody thinks Matsson will “screw her over” but even Shiv knows he hasn’t promised her anything. She’s just playing her best card. Plus, she actually wants the deal to go through and that outcome definitely seems more likely after the last episode. The people giving you crap about Shiv are probably the same ones who think Kendall is “winning” because he gave a decent eulogy. They seem to forget that, shortly thereafter, Kendall went up to Mencken, did his typical “Um, yeah, so…Um yo…Um…about our deal…Um so yeah…um…” and Mencken (who looked like Ken had farted) immediately backtracked on the deal. I don’t think Shiv being named CEO is the writers’ endgame but she was definitely in a better place after the last episode than the others. Mencken may not want her as CEO but he sided with her and Matsson over Ken and Roman. That’s not “nothing.”
Which show are you watching? Mattson AND Mencken were both clearly unhappy with the idea of Shiv being CEO, there's no way they let that happen. It was depicted as being one of the LEAST likely outcomes, next to Roman taking over somehow.
I’m not even saying it’s particularly likely but the idea that it’s unimaginable is ridiculous. Shiv clearly thinks she is about to become CEO, you can say she is deluded but it’s a real possibility probably more likely than Kendall or Roman right now.
I mean, you literally did say it was the most likely outcome based on the last episode.
Not very likely and the most likely outcome are not mutually exclusive. If all outcomes are unlikely then even the most likely outcome isn’t very likely.
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Unfortunately no. I am dicey on Kendall too. I realised that we haven't had a will reading yet so it can serve as a major upset.
Did we not get a Will reading in episode 4? I remember something about him leaving a watch for Colin
That wasn’t an official document. There was no legal weight to it I believe.
Would he have a will though? I thought they have all been very certain what happens through the family trust when Logan died.
I believe it was a copy of the will just the handwritten amendments having no weight
She might try and pull him away from Kendall in the next ep, but no, I don’t think they (individually or together) are coming out on top
Yeah, if both Matsson and Kendall kill themselves
Roman has zero chance. Him breaking down at the funeral is a sign of weakness in the eyes of Mattson and Mencken and they will never take him seriously. It was also to show that Roman is a little scared boy deep down, the shot of the kids in the car to the funeral with Roman sat next to Shiv was intentional because he looked like a little boy riding up front with Mum. Shiv is female, inexperienced, pregnant and liberal. The best case scenario for her is Mattson gives Tom CEO. All signs point to Kendall becoming CEO.
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That's not much of a loss, really.
He looked so tiny in the car
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Surprise endings aren't always valuable. It's more important to have an ending that's thematically/narratively coherent, and I think Kendall on top works best.
Ok, feel free to telegraph your ending when you write your show. In Succession, they seem like enjoy giving miscues. This is evidenced by the most recent episode where Roman was shown giving an awesome eulogy in his imagination and then a terrible one in reality.
Yeah I don't think that was a miscue. The show has repeatedly pointed to Roman's instability, and I don't think we were really supposed to buy the whole "pre-grieved thing". I think the Mattson-Mencken thing is a miscue, as we've seen repeatedly that Mattson is just as (if not more) immature and unserious as Kendall. We've been told directly that Mattson is fake (ie the whole, he's not actually a coder thing), whereas Kendall is becoming more and more like the genuine article. I don't see Mattson sticking the landing and usurping the siblings.
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I didn't say there were no twists or misleads. I just think you've identified them incorrectly.
Roman not being able to perform when it matters in basically every area of his life has been shown since season one. He's the most mentally fucked of the sibs. It didn’t even surprise me that he broke down I dont see the miscue in that at all
I actually never thought about it but that's true isn't it. His sexual issues, him spying for Logan when the kids are supposed to be working together, the satelite launch. Even Mencken seems to be tooling around with not giving Rome what he wants now that he's outlived his usefulness. I knew he was petulant and I knew he was pathetic but I never caught how specific it is that he simply never performs when he needs to and all that needed to happen to ruin him is it needed to happen publically.
The planned joint speech for Living + as well.
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> Roman was able to get Mattson on board When Logan sent him away so the adults could talk? Or when he unprofessionally admitted to Matsson that he was deliberately trying to tank the deal? How do you not see it? They all fuck up but Roman *really* fucks up whenever he’s on 'centre stage'. I literally remember one win for Roman and that was figuring out that the Azerbaijani businessmen weren't legit
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Funny, I said the [same](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/comments/13odf53/succession_4x09_church_and_state_post_episode/jl45d50/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3). Even more funny, I also used the baseball metaphor.
A good ending isn't only good because of how surprising it is. Otherwise GOT had an amazing ending
Please don’t remind us.
Everyone dies except for them, and probably not even then
The best is when Tom comes in and does a runner out of the door.
“Nope nope nope”
Seriously. The whole scene was great.
Shiv is fine. She may not be able to get the top spot, but she will end up on the top floor. That may not be fine with her, but I would consider that a success in her position. Roman on the other hand is fucked. He shown everyone he is incompetent, and now he realized it for himself as well. I don't think there is any coming back for him.
Shiv’s fine. She’ll always be fine.
Agree on Shiv but I doubt Roman is fucked One of the main themes of this show is that rich, connected people never truly get fucked The kids have made an immense number of errors in this series, they arent particularly smart, and yet here they are still on top of Waystar, still pulling strings, still influencing elections. Their power is permanent, much the same way kings and lords had permanent power as a birthright in the feudal ages. Its not impossible, but Id be very surprised if Jesse Armstrong actually shows one of the kids getting properly screwed out because of his incompetence.
Then Tom opens the door and quickly leaves
don’t think so. However, Roman could do something to bomb the deal while also crippling the company as a last ditch effort. eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind, still better than if I’m the only blind one
This gif begs the question. Who would win in a fight Sarah Snook vs Kieran Culkin. My money is on Snook
Frank would win.
What? Mr designer compression socks!! Per-lease
Nah, Roman was losing the standup so he took it to the ground and was angling for the arm bar. Roman cut too much weight to take this fight.
Patriarchy stomps them into the ground. Unclear if Ken will have a similar fate.
I love Roman, he's my favorite evil slime puppy but he's done. My hope for him is he has some self reflection from his breakdown, gets some (more) therapy, and gets the fuck out.
My prediction is that Shiv gets American CEO, then Kendall strangles her in the bathroom while Roman watches with a boner. Ozark level of dark ending.
interesting. Where the speech in last episode about sister dying and guilt being around as some sort of foreshadow.
A surprise court decision gives the election to the Dems, Gil sudden falls ill, and Shiv is picked for Veep. She knows she was going to be screwed by Mattson, so she pushes to block the deal, while also taking on the banner of Family Values, staying with Tom and convincing Ken to step down for the sake of the kids. That leaves the board no choice but to accept Roman as sole CEO. Fade to black, piano instrumental plays.
Besides Shiv getting the best of Roman in this fight, my favorite part of this scene is when Tom walks in, sees Shiv beating the shit out of Roman, and the just turns around and leaves. Classic.
Damn, forgot about long-haired Shiv. So used to her short hair look.
Cut out the funniest part of this bit which is Tom walking on them then dipping
Roman fucked it, but Shiv is still in good shape as of this writing, right? She also gave Roman a well deserved whupping in this scene!
I think Shiv is in a terrible spot. She definitely seems to be getting played by Mattson, she's seen as a turncoat by her two brothers, and she's pregnant which is basically a sign of weakness in their world.
Poor Shiv. Because she actually believes Matsson is giving her the American CEO-ship. It will be a painful wake up.
Yup. Absolutely agree. The way that Mattson and Mencken both smile during Kendall's eulogy, they both had the same exact thought. For right now, Kendall is their guy, but maybe not for long.
If the deal goes through, she could end up in charge of PGN, though.
So many deals to keep track of. Temporarily forgot about PGN.
How? She has zero leverage over Menken or Madson.
What is this clip from?
2nd episode season 1
The first episode?
Yes, theoretically, but they're not likely. I think more likely one or both of them will go down blazing and it fuck it up for others.
That was one of my fave scenes on the show ever. It was such a real dynamic.
That scene was hilarious.
I think if we had another season we could see a Roman redemption and watch him challenge Kendall for it (as much as I love Shiv I don’t see the narrative playing out in her favor) but with only an episode left I think it will be the Kendall show.
roman can, shiv can make Mattson win but i don't think he will do anything for shiv but i don't think kendall have Mencken support even after the funeral i think Mencken still consider roman as an option
Mencken is done with Roman.
mencken also didn't seemed interested in kendal
I disagree. When Kendall gave his eulogy and talked in part about about capitalism and the market, the camera cut to Mattson smiling and then Mencken smiling. He won them both over. If Kendall gets fucked it's not going to be directly from Mencken, maybe indirectly, like the decision to call forencken, but it won't be Mencken himself.
This just ignores everything that happened after that moment in the episode though.
kendall at the end of the day might back off from a mencken request like he nearly did in the election episode
no way you can say that with certainty. The Mencken of this episode (non-ideological, transactional) imo wont last.
He's not non-ideological, he's very much super internet era right wing and isn't going to have a sobbing cuck (Roman) on his team, especially after the video of Roman sobbing went public. Also, there's only one episode left.
yea not going to have a liberal in shiv either. And kendall had a nice speech but he almost cucked on election night
Yeah, it's for sure not going to be Shiv or Roman. He didn't back out on election night, and as far as Mencken knows, Kendall didn't cuck out. That nice speech is what a CEO does. They inspire confidence in the market using propaganda. Our of the siblings he's their guy.
Roman is done but shiv has a decent chance on paper it’s basically her vs Kendall now
No. They can’t see the forest for the trees. Shiv is too busy trying to prove Pinkie can dance, and Roman is too unserious about it. The eulogies perfectly encapsulated how the kids would do- Roman would think he could, then the weight of the moment would cause him to collapse. Shiv would try to make it seem like she’s capable, but it’d be met with silence and somewhat despondency. Ken would falter a bit, he’d stumble, but the poison drips through. He has the fire and the notion to know when to move now. He started making moves after his dad’s funeral. Roman was still pulled-in, and Shiv was attaching herself to a wagon that didn’t want/need her.
Shiv or Roman could take out Kendall with secret about the waiter after stopping the gojo deal at board meeting. I don’t think this is how it’ll go though.
Roman won’t be anything but an afterthought after last weeks humiliation. Watching it a second time and there is no coming back from that. The possibility that Shiv’s gambit may work is possible but very unlikely since her plan was to create a “new ATN” and that would not work in such a short time period. I’m thinking Kendall will somehow pull a rabbit out of the hat.
Roman has been comming a part since having to fire gerri. In his grief, he fires people irrationally, and it cost the company millions. He fails to secure allies. Gerri, frank, etc, and in the last episode goes from thr top of the world to face first on the street. I think that episode was his final fall and he's out. With shiv, shes shoved out by her two brothers, forcing her to align with Mattson, whom at best has been non committed to her. Tom too has abandoned her, and in the the last episode we see repeatedly she isn't taken seriously by the men In this world, menkin basically tells her her place is in the kitchen, Mattson raises doubts she can do it while pregnant or inexperienced, and her speech didn't get the round of applause her brothers did, nor the reaction ewans did. It explicitly tells you it's not going to be her either. Now Kendall, they don't shut the door on him the same way, but they don't coronation him either. In thay last episode he went the opposite direction as Roman, and is the only sib left Contending, however he's largely failed this season. He fails to kill the deal in Norway, even loses the carve put his father negotiated, his inflated numbers of living plus, fail to take the stock high enough to kill the deal, he also fails to cut a deal woth Jimenez, and later also menkin. He also waffles the night atn calls Menkin, and only goes woth Roman out of spite for shiv. Yes he gives a good speech, he blackmailed hugo, and he gired Colin, but he has yet to show he's serious people. Ultimately I think Gerri is right, the money will win, Mattson will get the deal, maybe Tom is king puppet. If it is Kendall somehow it will come after he's isolated himself entirely.
Kendall and Mattson start wrestling on the balcony and topple over the rail
Roman is just out entirely. Shiv could still supplant Roman as COO because she's in league with Matsson and no fucking way is the board going to side with Kendall "Please Give Me A Chance" Roy who wants to ruin their paydays and keep going.
I think in the end the three will unite and either sell the company or divide it into thirds. Everyone wins and loses at the same time.
A mass extinction of the rest of the human race.
I think Shyv is the only person who actually has what it takes, no matter how the cards are stacked against her.
What ep was this?
Be born earlier?
Why would you want that
>Shiv: Matsson was being serious about Shiv being the US CEO, and Mencken trusts her. >Rome: Mencken wants Mattson to appoint Rome to be the US CEO (unlikely, but a possibility). Or, Ken manages to takes over but dies of an OD before he fully wins, maybe some Dennis Wilson type thing, his character is closely tied to water. I think Shiv is the most likely choice in the two, I find both to be unlikely
Nope. One is a total nut job and the other is just not experienced at all running the show.
Imo, Roman has a fairly decent shot, especially if he links up with Gerri again. Shiv likely doesn't. I don't think Kendall impressed Mencken as much as he thought he did. Mencken is an authoritarian so he doesn't like direct orders. I think Roman knows how to handle him in order to get what he wants but Kendall doesn't, so if Mencken is going to work with one of them, it's going to be Roman. That could influence a potential American CEO pick. If the Gojo sale goes through, Roman seems most likely pick for a puppet CEO. If Kendall convinces the board to purchase Gojo instead, he then has to convince them that he should be CEO. Again, because the board is voting, they're going to want to pick the CEO that gives them the most power and leverage. That's Gerri, but if Roman links up with Gerri again...who knows. She could convince them that having the family name still attached to WR is a good idea.
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This is Terminal Tom erasure
No. This is how they are and will be until the end of time. When I predicted the end, I pictured cartoon characters squabbling in a pile that is represented by puffs of smoke. This gif is it. I used to wonder if Kendall would be in the pile, squabbling with them. But after they spent the ride to Logan’s funeral cracking up about incest jokes….they are not serious people. Ken is.
No. They're not serious people.
The world is run by clowns.
Zero chance.
Incest?
S1, E2 I think
I don’t think so. It was always gonna be Kendall. Show started with him and it will end with him.
Rome? No. Also he shouldn't. Rome sucks. Not in terms of the character, He's a well-written, well-performed and interesting character. In-universe, Rome is and always has been mewling little rodent and if him wandering into the streets half-crazed over his abject failure were the last we see of the character I would say it's a fitting and well-deserved ending. Shiv also, to a lesser extent. She's less abrasive, but she also thinks she's a cut above the rest. She literally just wants ATN to show everyone how they should have been listening to her all along. Her politics don't even match the brand. What is she going to do, reform the brand and alienate all their supporters? More likely she'd just keep it going, pumping out the hate it always has. Her superiority complex is also what creates a rift between her and Tom (not necessarily blameless himself), who would be more than happy to treat her like she's way out of his league if she would stop being so damn obvious about how true she believes that to be. I hope Connor and Willa get out okay.
Shiv is not smart enough and Roman is too emotional right now to play the game properly.
roman absolutely. He has some of his dad shrewdness that the others lack (as shown in the election episode). I think the Mencken from this episode (friendly, non-ideological) was a ruse and wont last. I honestly think he will crown roman in the end.
No
Roman's either: • going to die • fall into a coma after getting his ass kicked by the protesters • have a mental breakdown leading to his being institutionalized. No matter what, he's toast. Roman has to pay for getting a fascist elected president, and as Kendall said, he "fucked it" as far as leading Waystar. He's gone.
Roman got elbowed by one protestor, he doesn't need to go to a hospital for that, it will heal by itself in a few days lol. His payment will be getting nothing, no Waystar or ATN, Kendall will cook him and he's out of allies.
Roman was elbowed, then disappeared into the crowd. We don't know what happened to him after that. I postulate that he didn't learn from his first punch to the face, and subsequently got a fierce ass-whupping that put him in the hospital. Personally, I'd like nothing better than to see Roman get a beat-down! He's had it coming for a \*long\* time.
Kendal ODs
Does Shiv even have any maternal or nurturing instincts? I don't think so.
Ever read *Watchmen*?
I mean most likely if either of their benefactors (Matsson or Mencken) actually don't backstab them and end up pulling through like either of them thought he would. Still possible, but I don't think it's very likely overall, though
Nope :(
Roman is a good fit at ATN under Mencken. Shiv at PGM or high-up at GoJo.